Im hoping to start a cyberpunk campaign soon with my group and was wondering what version of the game would be best for introducing us to the system and world. we are fairly experienced with TTRPGs but none of us have played cyberpunk before
>>987011953.0
>>98701195Watch the movie Johnny Mnemonic, it's a perfect encapsulation of cyber punk themes and tropes.
>>98701680it is a perfect film
>>98701195RED is unironically good for beginners, it's the same system as the superior 2020 edition but it's more streamlined and runs easier, the other addition adds in additional rules that give better nuance.
>>98702111I concur, RED offers ready packages at chargen, it's less prone to players accidentally breaking the system, the simplified weapon system is easier to digest, etc.The biggest hurdle at teaching new players in my experience is getting them to remember that matching Difficulty Value doesn't pass the check and you need to beat it.
>>98701195Depends, whether you want to have "The Cyberpunk Experience (TM)" or whether you are looking for more genre oriented cyberpunk RPG. Whether your players are experienced in simulationist or narrative games.>Cyberpunk REDTwo anons already mentioned, that it is, on conceptual level, good introductory cyberpunk system. It reduces lot of crunch into simplified sub-systems, but suffers from FOUR major pain points and all of them must be mitigated by GM:>Book layout and rule structure is atrocious, even digital version with full text search is pain to use and you will need to create your own digests (reddit "one pagers" are shit, stay clear of them).>Combat is tactical, but lacks lethality, armor rules are pain and you WILL end up with slog, if not resolved in three rounds top. Critical wounds are fun, less fun, when you end up with two damage over time counters and post-it note collecting all negative modifiers for single char. Go for lethal combat and instead of forcing players to mop-up mooks, once they are winning, let enemies panic, withdraw, etc.>Hacking is slog and will be boring to other players, avoid at all costs, replace with appropriate skill checks and more RP based resolutions. If you have player that WANTS to flex their interface skills, instead of running large architectures with 6 and more levels, replace it with multiple 3 level architectures loosely connected in cluster with single AP and let them move laterally. >Half of the roles require massive upfront investment from GM: Fixer, Media, Lawmen, Corpo and Rockerboy need to have proper mechanical hooks in every encounter, or they will be useless. Down-time activities from support roles are essential and often overlooked.
>>98701195Cities without number. People acting like red is a massive improvement over 2020 are nuts, Red is an unfun slog and just as bad, just in different ways than 2020.
>>98701195If you are all experienced with ttrpgs and dont mind crunch, play cyberpunk 2020 and make sure to get the large cp2020 reference guide pdf and some good cheat sheets so that the system is clear, the book's layout is atrocious.If you dont want to do that go with cities without number and chop away the magic rules.I dont recommend cyberpunk Red at all, it has all the negatives of cyberpunk 2020 and none of the positives.Mind you the hacking is horrible in every single one of these games (cities without number has the best hacking among them, and i still dont like it).Homebrew something simple and be done with it.
>>98703698>If you dont want to do that go with cities without number and chop away the magic rules.The magic rules don't need to be "chopped away," they are a completely optional system in an appendix in the back of the book.
>>98703717Which verb would you prefer in place of "chopped away"?
>>98707957You don't need to bring up optional rules that aren't in the core text at all. "Chopped away" implies that they're important rules in the game that somehow need to be dealt with; they aren't.
>>98709194Let's use the word "ignore" then.
>>987011952137
>>98701195RED is fine, if a bit pillowfisted and with some jank (one molecule of drywall is enough to stop .666 Cyborg Holocaust +P+++++++++ Bubba's Pissing Hot Streetload APFSDS), but it's fun enough, especially for a 5e crowd who's afraid of a system with some meat on its bones
>>98701680Watched it for the first time just a few weeks ago. It was easily one of the most aggresively 90s films I have ever seen. Kinda goofy in an adorable way, but enjoyable and clearly done with a genuine vision and passion
>>98703601>Combat is tactical, but lacks lethalityI'd say the combat isn't tactical at all. It's move and attack with your strongest weapon every turn with little variation unless you need to heal, reload, interact with something etc.
>>98721214There's only one form of healing in RED, and if you don't have a med-tech PC you can't interact with the item at all. (The speed heal) So unless one player picked that role, healing in combat isn't a mechanic.And the item only works once a day. Unless you're using a single shot weapon, or spray and praying, you'll never need to reload. It'd take you 25 rounds to empty a Rifle's magazine. Automatic fire is a separate skill from Semi-automatic so most players won't actually engage with automatic fire. Reloading is ultimately rare. So it's ultimately mostly just move and attack, unless you're a Netrunner, because you're balancing attacking with hacking at the same time.
>>98701680And read Snow Crash.
>>98724149>So it's ultimately mostly just move and attack, unless you're a Netrunner, because you're balancing attacking with hacking at the same time.And if you roll a Netrunner it's either engage in a boring mini game that splits the party and slows down the game or use the extremely barebones Quickhacking rules.
>>98721214It depends. Just checking out book again to not bullshit you:>RoF based action splittingWith RoF of 2, you can move-fire-move-fire, even combine weapons (2 RoF weapons, attack with first, then second), which has high utility with specialized ammo that is basically tool to cause specific type of critical injury, which impacts enemy.>Aimed shots to cripple mobilityJust extension of first point. My kick-puncher veteran mook with sandi sucked ass with both legs turned into stumps.>Shotgun spread mechanics/Explosives/Autofire/SuppressionSelf-explanatory combat theater control tools>Grapple/Grab/Choke/Throwing/Martial ArtsHigh armor? No problem, I have power of FIST! With high enough brawl skill, everyone else is glass canon.>Covers/Shields/improvised shields/Living shieldsHighest tier of bullshit as >>98714860 pointed out. Having dedicated brusier ripping out metal doors from cars and buildings, to use as improvised shield, that is being ablated as they move forward to unleash BASH.>Hold Action synergyHaving two solos on overwatch with autofire, while techie lobs grenade to eliminate their cover, followed with total and unilateral obliteration of my hidden mooks.In my game, my players utilized most of this toolkit, ammo types guaranteeing certain Critical Injury conditions are way too over powered.
>>98728968Skill issue. RED netrunning is fully deterministic; a netrunner can plan their entire turn as soon as they finish their previous turn (with only a few exceptions where you need to gather information at the start of your next turn; which means you can plan half your turn.)Without having to deal with range or movement my netrunning turns actually are faster than my meat turns and there's no reason yours can't be too if you read the fucking book and learn your role.
>>98734471The problem is alot of those options are highly situational and most combat encounters boil down to just rushing the enemy with your strongest weapon (usually melee/martial arts because the armor rules make them better than ranged). With investment in just a handful of skills you can trivialize most encounters. Seriously make a character with decent Evasion and Resist Torture/Drugs and you've neutralized most threats a GM can throw at you, if you really want to have no risk put a few points into Cybertech and Brawling (or better yet a martial art that lets you escape grapples) and you're set.Like sure, you could shoot someone's legs, but that's a -8 penalty and it's usually better to focus fire and outright kill the guy. You could use suppressive fire but it's a x2 skill for a mediocre effect with poorly written rules and goofy immersion breaking game logic. You could pack a shotgun, but it's damage/range is terrible and basically a worse grenade in every way except price, which players are likely packing. Using a car door as a shield isn't even outlined in the rules as something you can do RAW and depending on the GM they might just say a car door is not a suitable shield for a number of reasons. Choking people out is the only thing you've outlined that's a good, versatile tactical option besides just attacking.Red's problem is it has a very strict action economy and terrible game balance. You can only move and take one action per turn and it's too easy to min max alot of the challenge out of the game. If you don't do that and go for more flavorful builds, the game can easily become a slog due to the armor/evasion rules. Combat rules in Red are ass and need to be updated if a second edition is ever published. >>98737676Netrunning being ass has been a common complaint since the game came out. It's not that the rules are too complex, it's just the underlying gameplay is dull and not what most players want out of Netrunner gameplay.
>>98737900When the gameplay was complex and involved people ran it in separate sessions if at all. RED takes long strides to integrating netrunning into round to round gameplay and bringing the runner into the gig.Quickhacks definitely need a second pass; they're one of the weakest implementations of 2077 concepts to be found in the CEMK, but most complaints over RED netrunning have seemed to me to be from people who didn't read the chapter, are stuck with bad runners who didn't read the chapter or people who won't ever be satisfied with hacking as a minigame because they're really just prissy about specialty roles that do things they can't.
