>Why do people here say
Because they're trolling and/or autistic

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>>98706316
Monk is probably my favorite class in D&D, mainly for just the reason you said. Its one of the only full martial characters whose themes demand supernatural abilities, and kung fu fighting in a medieval setting is fun. The big issue with your examples is that for every edition of D&D the creators fundamentally misunderstand their own ruleset. When the writers create a 'gish', a combination magic and martial character, they invariably treat it is a HYBRID. They imagine a full Fighter and a full Magic User as being equal, thus a combination gets magic that is weaker and it gets it at a higher level than the pure Magic User. The issue is this is wrong. The fighting features of higher health, accuracy, damage, and durability are not remotely equal to a magic character, because magic is an omnitool with no limitation by themes, is itself useful for combat, and its primary user the Wizard can even change his powers daily. In reality, the combination character is not a hybrid, they are a SPECIALIST. They get fewer powers in a thematically limited fashion, while the Wizard is a GENERALIST. In other words if Wizards learn to Fly at level 5 and may do so seldom and with Concentration, the Monk/Eldritch Knight/etc should not learn it at level 13 and have less uses. They should learn it sooner or at the same time and with fewer limitations, because that character has fly as one of its only tools while the wizard has numerous tools. This is why the best content, official or homebrew, in any edition of D&D has been well designed specialists. Because while they still get outcompeted by full casters (nothing can compete with full magic, the Wizard itself needs to be trust-busted into multiple narrower classes), they get much closer. More importantly classes like the Swordsage, Psychic Warrior, Aegis, Tome Monk, laserllama's variant classes, etc etc are just fun to play.
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>>98706410

2024 Monk is probably the best official monk in terms of immediately delivering a functional class, but it still only has a handful of supernatural powers all worse than spells available at equal Levels. I mean for fuck's sake monks can't even jump good, let alone fly. The laserllama Monk of the Rising Dragon I'm playing right now can use Step of the Wind to gain a fly speed equal to their speed, at will, but they fall at the end of their turn. They get this at level 6, one level after Wizards learn Fly. This is how all well balanced martial powers should be. Its clearly different than the spell equivalent, lacks many of its limitations, but still has situations where you'd want the spell. As long as the Pure/Hybrid model persists over the reality of a Generalist/Specialist model, martial classes are going to suck.
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>>98706410

>>98706316
That's because the ways they're supernatural are incredibly underwhelming or just aren't represented in the slightest
Imagine waiting until level 10 or 14 for a supernatural subclass feature and it's the ability to knock someone prone when you hit them.

>>98706412
>>98706410
Post these laserllama classes of which you speak

>>98706753
https://www.gmbinder.com/profile/laserllama

I'm a big fan of the Monk, though some of the subclasses need work. Shifter is also fun.

>>98706316
The actual reason martial classes are shit is because they have no meaningful out of combat capabilities, supernatural or otherwise.

And this hurts them in combat too because there's more to war than hitting things.

>>98706841
>they have no meaningful out of combat capabilities, supernatural or otherwise.
which is wierd for a monk or a barbarian to have.

>>98706410
>>98706412
Damn, I couldn't have come up with a more damning indictment of classshit if I tried.

>>98706316
People, for some dumbfuck reason, operate under the assumption that
>Magic users have access to every single spell, unlimited castings, and can have dozens of ongoing effects that require concentration at the same time
AND
>Martials do NOT have access to any magical gear at all, are always caught off guard, have zero defense against magic, and fail everything they attempt almost every time

Both of these assumptions are preposterous and are glaringly obviously so to anybody who plays games instead of just reading PDF rulebooks, getting rules wrong, and imagining outrageous scenarios in their head.

>>98707340
Access to the only spells that matter, more spell slots than they'll ever need, extended rope trick, and haste, invisibility, and fly, none of which require concentration.

AND

Martials don't have class features that grant them magic items, have zero class features that grant enough spell resistance to matter, bad base saving throws and none of the ability scores that improve those saving throws are their core stats, and don't have the numbers to keep up with level appropriate challenges without DM pity items.

In other words, their assumptions are correct, because they're the result of the rules printed in the rulebook, they're right about the rules, and they play more games than you do.

>>98706316
In short They're trolling

In long...
D&D is intentionally unbalanced and has been even more so in the past, so casters have a legacy of both being OP in general and having higher cielings than fighters depending on the edition. Theres also a tradition of trap options, so stock fighters have somewhat secretly needed feats to be compeditive for the last 10 years.
Theres also gear and timing. Fighters are expected to get gear, but nothing clearly explains when or how much. There is also an expected grind between rests, and when people ignore that the wizard outperforms by burning four fights worth of spells in one fight then resting 8 hours.

Other factors exist too like damage resistances that disproportionately punish fighters, a lack of non-combat powers, and dependency on three stats instead if 1 that makes it harder to stack bonuses.

As for classes, the monk and ranger have just been complete dogshit for the last decade, lowering the average, and classes like cleric and druid have been on crack with basically no bad options in their kit.

>>98706412
>2024 Monk is probably the best official monk in terms of immediately delivering a functional class
No that's still 4E's Monk.

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>>98707599
Having played it several times back when I still played 4E, hard pass. The monk is definitively an effective enough combat class but it's not interesting to me by any means. All the things that make a monk fun to me (roleplaying a superhumanely fast high jumping character) is locked behind encounter powers or dailies and are meant to be used to set up attacks because outside of rituals (which suck and cost gold) there are very few noncombat powers in 4E. I still played it more than other 4E classes just because monk did get more of those then most with powers like Fall of Wind and Swift Flight, but the latter is an encounter. Yeah I feel so much like the guys in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon doing that once and only once. Fourth is just such an awful game by only making combat powers. I will not stop being pissed off that even most Utility powers did not in fact give you out of combat utility but rather niche combat support. So fucking stupid, just make an at-will to run fast and jump good this isn't fucking rocket science.

>>98707624
Still a more functional class.

>>98707628
See even within the context of 'being a good fighting class in the game it's in' Monk is middling. Most of the other Strikers in 4E are better than the monk is. 4E Monk really only looks good because it came after the 3.5 Monk which was a MAD riddled mess whose primary class features actively worked against each other. 4E monk works out of box. Its still a mediocre class, and both the 5E monks also work out of box with the advantage of at least a few monk-ey kung fu powers.

>>98706316
D&D has been around for 50 years. It has lots of baggage. It came out of wargames, focused itself on dungeon crawling, then widened out to world(s) exploration. Things have fluctuated between editions because different people have different ideas about both what D&D is and what it should be.

Balance...is a bad word to use for D&D. Let's go with "parity" instead. Before 3e, different classes achieved parity through varied XP progressions. A "simple martial" leveled up a lot faster than a "complex caster" which meant a different imbalance than today - it took a lot of surviving for a caster to end up powerful. "Mixed" classes were expected to trudge through low levels because doing martial AND caster things seemed like an obvious advantage.

3e gave everyone the same XP level up progression but neglected to make up for the martial/caster power disparity, earning it and its derivatives the title "caster edition." 3e also happened to massively expand D&D exposure/audience thanks to OGL and the internet, which means it was the primary expose for a lot of current players/designers, and its "boring martials" are a benchmark.

I loved the idea of 3e monk and tried to make it work many times. Things needed to align perfectly, but never did for me. 4e was the only time a monk felt "right" but the edition had way too many problems everywhere else. 5e made its classes pretty much independently functional regardless of player choice. Parity matters less than balance between party and encounter. And bounded accuracy is tuned in the players' favor enough that you can power through (pre-made content at least) with almost all choices.

Pathfinder 1 is basically D&D 3.75, designed by 3e people who famously hated on martials in general and monks in particular. Pathfinder 2 is basically 4.99 - 4e in 5e's clothing - but the "balance" is tuned AGAINST the players. Suboptimal choices hurt even more.

>>98707641
>Most of the other Strikers in 4E are better than the monk is.
This isn't true, they're square in the middle of the pre-Essentials strikers.

>>98707661
That's what I mean. It's a solid B class in 4E. The 2024 Monk is a solid B class also but has more fun options for out of combat, so I rate it higher. Though neither are my go to for good monks. My favorite is probably the laserllama 5E monk I'm playing now, with a strong second being the Tome Monk homebrew in 3.5 who let you make your own kung fu styles by combining two different powers from a list.

>>98707406
>Haste, invisibility, and fly, none of which require concentration
They all do, you fucking idiot.
Like I said, you morons get rules wrong all the fucking time.

>>98709346
Haste doesn't require concentration in the game he's talking about, sped.

>>98709346
Also the amount of people who think you can rain spells and arrows outside the dimensional box you are in is pretty retarded. Attacks of any sort can't enter or exit the space.

>>98709352
Haste absolutely requires concentration.

>>98709383
When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.

Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.
Material Component

Powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment.

>>98709396
Nope.

>>98707340
>unlimited castings
Even if their castings were as limited as some people like to pretend, spells would still be better because temporary specialization will always beat always-on generalization.

>>98709403
You touch a length of rope that is up to 60 feet long. One end of the rope then rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground. At the upper end of the rope, an invisible entrance opens to an extradimensional space that lasts until the spell ends.

The extradimensional space can be reached by climbing to the top of the rope. The space can hold as many as eight Medium or smaller creatures. The rope can be pulled into the space, making the rope disappear from view outside the space.

Attacks and spells can't cross through the entrance into or out of the extradimensional space, but those inside can see out of it as if through a 3-foot-by-5-foot window centered on the rope.

Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends

>>98706316
The solution is to make every martial class Rogue tier at being a skill monkey
No more "uhhhh I have athletics, acrobatics and maybe one social or intelligence skill"

>>98709497
Nah, the solution is to have martials be the only reliable damage dealers and magic items interfere with spell casting so non-martials can't use them at all.

Balancing magic users and fighting men got us 4e and pf2
Both 4e and pf2 are dogshit as a result of trying to achieve balance
Therefore trying to achieve any sort of parity between fighting men and magic users is a dogshit idea by transitive property

QED

>>98709700
No.

>>98709346
No they don't.

>>98709519
No.

>>98709497
No.

>>98709497
>>98709519
>>98709700
No, the issue is trying to do parity in the first place. That's "game mechanics" taking over the "game design" space to the game's overall detriment. You should be driven by asking "how can I make all of these cool in their own way" if you want to recreate the pre-3e D&D aesthetics. Wizards wield the power of the cosmos and consort with things on other planes of existance? Cool. Fighters own keeps and lead armies? Cool. Rogues pull off impossible heists? Cool. Rangers exist in their current form because a lot of people wanted to be Drizzt, and that "two weapon fighting + pet" package had to come from somewhere.

WOTC and 3e steered D&D into "standardizing" things. Which is great for game balance, but takes away the wonder, that feeling of your heroics being special. Rule 0 built D&D from scratch, when the other rules simply didn't exist. But then we started treating the resulting layers of rules as gospel.

>>98706316
Martialtards don't want a fix, they want to complain. Tome of Battle fixed martials but they just bitched about it so it'll never happen again.

>>98710268
Tome of battle didn't fix shit though.
It just did wizard again, but with swords

TBF I feel like the best way to address this would be to outright limit martial character advancement to a lower level.

You want to be the badass normal dude? Ok, but you are limited to level 10
You want to go higher than that? You gotta step into the supernatural. Period.

>>98706316
Nobody here says that.

>>98710677
>levels 1-10 you must take a mundane class
>levels 11+ you can start taking supernatural classes (or just dip into a different mundane i guess)
>want to be a wizard? give me ten levels of scholar first, maggot
make it happen

>>98710677
>TBF I feel like the best way to address this would be to outright limit martial character advancement to a lower level.
>>98711673
I feel like this could work really well for something Xianxia inspired where the first 10 or so levels you're a mortal with a somewhat normal class like martial artist and then everyone steps into the immortal world and becomes some flavor of cultivator

>classes
>levels
YIKES!

>>98706316
It comes down the classes with a more hyper specific concept in mind fitting with other classes that have a broader scope. A monk is just a kung fu movie character and wasn't intented to be anything more. A barbarian is a berserker whose whole gimmick is getting tougher when he's angry.

As a more general concept these two could have a lot more range. They could fit more tropes each. But when they were designs that wasn't something they considered. People have since spent a lot of time reinventing both to allow more expression in the class, usually in expansions and spinoffs, but the standard DnD design kind of locks both of these in.

What flavor of Bruce Lee are you? Is there a reason your barbarian gets angry or are they mostly saying they rage as a meta joke? You can be an entirely different bard just by swapping instruments or an entirely different cleric by swapping gods. But Barbarians and Monks are not flexible.

I've seen some DnD expansions do fun things with subclasses for these two, usually by reinventing how the class works, replacing rage with a more general term, letting the barbarian power up in other ways besides 'get mad'. But the just the names of these two classes limit them so much.

In OD&D only fighting men could use magic swords. The most common and most versatile of magical items.
Magic swords could drain levels, detect things and even have wished. But even that was random.

And they have no class features that grant them magic swords, so that doesn't fucking matter.

>>98709403
>>98709427
This a is a good example demonstrating how the vast majority of complaints about casters being OP are from people who don't play casters and don't understand the limitations of their magic.

>>98706316
>Why do people here say that martial clases need to be underwellming because they aren't supernatural.
Because they're Batman faggots and retarded, or they're obsessed with caster supremacy because they never got over being bullied in middle school, because they're retarded. Non-magical doesn't need to mean mundane.

>>98706841
>they have no meaningful out of combat capabilities
Most of the people who play those classes don't care. But if a class is going to ONLY be good during a fight, then they should be the best at it. Out of combat utility should be at the cost of combat effectiveness, not alongside it. If D&D was actually well designed, once initiative is rolled it should the the Fighter's world, and everyone else just lives in it.

>>98712683
>But if a class is going to ONLY be good during a fight, then they should be the best at it
There is inherently no such thing. There's more to war than hitting things.

>>98712683
Too bad that it's completely impossible for casters to cast buff spells on the fighter or debuff, damage, or field control spells to make the fighter more effective, this is completely forbidden you see. Just like how it's also forbidden for fighters to ever learn skills or carry tools, because those can be used outside of combat.

>>98712693
And Fighter should be good at them. Whatever means there are of killing things, Fighter should be the best. If that means spells used to kill enemies that are better have to be altered or removed, oh well. A fireball should need a high damage roll or hit a very tightly packed group of enemies to do more damage than a Fighter making a full attack with a bow & arrows. Also avoiding an encounter should mean no one gets XP. If you cast Sleep and just execute enemies while they're helpless, no one should get XP. It's punishment for playing like a bitch.

>>98712721
>Also avoiding an encounter should mean no one gets XP. If you cast Sleep and just execute enemies while they're helpless, no one should get XP. It's punishment for playing like a bitch

You had me and you lost me. The game used to reward playing like a bitch through rules like treasure as XP. XP shouldn't be tied purely to killing.

>>98712714
>casters to cast buff spells on the fighter or debuff, damage, or field control spells to make the fighter more effective
NTA, I've been playing D&D for nearly 30 years, I can count on one hand the times I've seen any caster but a cleric do this. Most caster players are assholes, and some will actually resent anyone who plays anything but a full casting class.

>>98712740
>XP shouldn't be tied purely to killing.
I agree, but you shouldn't get XP for voiding an encounter rather than actually fighting.

>>98712761
Ending the threat defeats the encounter. Whether you do so by violence, stealth and avoidance, or disabling nonlethally is completely irrelevant, all three defeat the encounter and result in your party succeeding.

>>98711792
are you saying that the core of it is that I see monk as a guy who trained to master some internal martial supernaturalness about themselves and barbarians as someone who should do it naturally (at least from what I know of dnd barbarians were they just basically hulk out).

but you are basically saying their are more so supposed to just be fighting styles and they just so happen to be supernatural to their core for convinience?.

like theorically speaking you could have a class of fighter that does everything that all martials do at the same time , and ki and rage don't really matter to how dnd players see the monk or barbarian.

>>98712776
>Ending the threat defeats the encounter.
That's like showing up for a race, sneaking into the other guy's garage and damaging his engine so he has to back out, and calling yourself the winner.

>>98712807
Clearly you don't play rogues

>>98712819
Actually rogues fit into the same niche, their "fight" is via opposed skill checks rather than direct combat, they still have to overcome the opposition at something rather than avoiding confrontation to begin with. Casters voiding encounters is bad for the game because it forces the DM to always build encounters the same way, to bypass or endure whatever bullshit the caster player likes to do. If he likes Forcecage, suddenly enemies have wands of disintegration. If he likes Sleep, wow there sure are a lot of undead everywhere we go. It becomes repetitive and boring, and boring is the worst thing a game can be.

>>98711673
No no
Wizard, cleric and all those that out of the box get to step into the supernatural have a 1-20 track
Halfcasters have a ,1-15 track

>>98712721
That sounds like pf2 where the ceiling of combat effectiveness is the fighter.

And would you look at that, pf2 is hot steaming diarrhea

>>98712714
why is it that the fighter can't contribute without sucking down spell slots from the casters just to be mediocre, but the casters don't require anything from the fighter? why would you ever take a fighter instead of another caster?

>>98712947
Anon if you believe Fighter is the reason PF2 sucks, I have a lovely bridge to sell you.

>>98712807
if that resulted in you accomplishing your goal, then yes, it is victory.

>>98712960
>but the casters don't require anything from the fighter?
They're supposed to need the Fighter to block enemies, but the game doesn't actually work that way in practice.

>>98712721
>Also avoiding an encounter should mean no one gets XP.
No, this is retarded.

>>98712980
Why?

OP again , what whould happen if casters just had super spells , but they would be really difficult to get help from the fighters to really get those requiriments.

is their anything that martial do best that anyone else that would make this dynamic work

>>98706334
FPBP

>>98706412
Monk is irrefutably the strongest pure martial in 5.5. That said, I disagree with your opinion on martials getting "Spell but worse". I think making Martials scale in the same way as casters makes them feel like they're just casters with a different coat of paint.

Also, temporary fly speeds suck ass (the one you describe in particular is dreadfully terrible) and are almost never worth using. I'm playing a Silver Dragonborn Paladin and there has never once been a turn where I thought using my fly speed would be worth the Bonus Action. It's just such a situational benefit unless you're being a gigafaggot and pulling some cheese with like warlock and EB or Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert type shit.

I also think Generalists have no place in a TTRPG; it's a cooperative game. You should be forced to specialize so that you have to rely on your allies to cover your weaknesses. You can make martials good without making them into casters and giving them features that are just worse spells. Like the monk not being able to jump is more a core mechanics issue than a Monk problem. Jumping Height/Distance is shit in D&D, whereas in a lot of systems I've played or run it's half speed. The issue is 5e uses feet for measurement instead of something sensible like meters or obfuscated Units so you can't easily do that. But again, core rules issue, not a Monk issue.

>>98706316
You don't need Martials to be supernatural to not be underwhelming. Well, not in the same way as a spellcaster anyway.

A "supernatural" martial shouldn't be shooting lasers and fireballs and all that shit, they should be superhuman. If wizards can shoot fireballs and shit, then Martials should play like your average Character Action Game protagonist (Metal Gear Rising, Devil May Cry, not so much bayonetta). They should be able to suplex things the size of a large building with ease, slice through armor like butter, move fast enough to run on walls and water (monk can already do this), be able to leap several stories in one jump, and do cool attacks that aren't just reflavored spells.

>>98709411
>>98707406
NTA but OP is discussing 5.5, where Haste does in fact require Concentration.
>Rope Trick
No concentration, but it only lasts 1 hour. Even extended that's not a solution, that's a stopgap because as soon as it ends everything inside it drops out, and man wouldn't it be funny if the bandits you were fighting used your 2 hour nap to dig a hole and/or put a nice deadly spike trap underneath it so the second you fall out your squishy little wizard body gets impaled on rusty, poison-coated spikes?
>Haste
Requires concentration.
>Invisibility
Concentration, and breaks if you do literally anything. Also, it's just a benefit to stealth checks, RAW it's not true invisibility.
>Greater Invisibility
See invisibility, but it doesn't break.
>Fly
Requires Concentration, and if you lose concentration you fall, and there is no way in hell your wizard even with a +3 to CON and proficiency in saves will be making a save against a Young Red Dragon's breath damage. In fact, any damage of 54 or higher will always result in a failure because the DC becomes 27, higher than a level 5 wizard with +6 to Con saves can even roll so enjoy falling to death. Or, better yet, just something that applies Restrained, maybe some sort of flying mount just drops a net on your ass. Easy.

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>>98713018
I couldn't disagree more on the temporary fly speed, at least the version my PC has. Ascendant Step lets you gain a fly speed whenever you use Step of the Wind, which in the alt-Monk like in the 2024 Monk costs no ki and lets you either Dash or Disengage. I have 50 Speed. I can leap up, strike a flying target, and land. I can attack foes, Disengage, and fly out of range. Its ridiculous on my dhampir since I can stick to walls. I've done shit like run into a group of foes with SotW (Disengage) beat them up then flew straight up and landed on the roof. I have a technique called Typhoon Strike that lets me attack all adjacent foes for 1 ki. I popped that and Patient Defense and fought off like six enemies, and when I started getting worn down a few turns later I just did some last minute punches, disengaged that turn, flew straight up and ended my turn standing on the roof out of their range. In another instance I got grappled and surrounded in a forest, so I broke the grapple and flew 25 feet up into a tree and leapt tree to tree until I was far far out of range (and behind cover due to trees). Another time a gargoyle archer was shooting at everyone from 240 feet away on top of a cathedral. I just air ran at him over two turns (ending on rooftops) and beat the shit out of him. He was dead by the time the other three PCs got there. Being able to fly short distances with the only cost being action economy is a fantastic power. Its not as good on things like Psy Warrior where it costs resources too and you don't have things like high Speed to make it really worth it, but its been one of the most fun I've had in a 5e PC with that power. It gets outmoded vs things like the level 11 2024 Elemental monk power to fly your speed for 10 minutes without concentration, but compared to the Fly spell I'd take it in a heart beat. And the Rising Dragon Monk gets a permanent true fly speed at later levels to replace it.

>>98707406
>>98713060
>Martials don't have class features that grant them magic items
And Wizards don't have class features that grant them Spell Scrolls. A Wizard at Level 20 can only know 44 total spells, and only have 25 of those prepared at a time. At Level 5, they have 14 Spells scribed and only have prepared. They can only maintain concentration on one spell at a time.

Also, you're just wrong. If a Fighter starts at Level 5+, they start with 1 Uncommon and 1 Common magic item of their choice; it's not a class feature, but it shows that RAW by level 5 a character should have 1 uncommon and 1 common magic item. If you don't give your players each at least that, you are not playing RAW as a GM. You are running the game wrong.
>have zero class features that grant enough spell resistance to matter
A raging Wild Heart Barbarian has resistance to every damage type other than Force, Necrotic, Radiant, and Psychic. Fighters get a re-roll on saves at level 9, with a bonus of +9 at that level, which makes an average roll of 19 which is well and above most Save DCs. A Monk gets Evasion at 7th and proficiency in ALL saves at 14th plus the ability to spend a meager 1 focus point to re-roll a failed save. Rogue also has Evasion and the ability to halve damage. They have solid resistances to spells. Could be better, but zero? Please.
>bad base saving throws
Their STR/DEX/CON saves are all solid. The only one that they might struggle with is Wisdom, except Monk. Any of them can snag Resilient Wisdom to shore that up with +PB to the save, or just having a Level 6+ Paladin.
>none of the ability scores that improve those saving throws are their core stats
But they have enough ASIs to spend on Feats that boost Wisdom or otherwise get ways to deal with the issue (like Monk).

>>98713060
>>98707406
>>98713082
>don't have the numbers to keep up with level appropriate challenges
Yeah they do. All it takes is the WIzard getting Paralyzed and he's fucking dead. And I assure you he won't be putting his points into Wisdom. A fighter has a shitload of hit points and shits out single-target damage, to say nothing of Rogue with Sneak Attack.
>DM pity items
As established, the game is designed around everyone getting magic items. The PHB shows this in the starting at higher levels section. It's not "DM pity", it's just running the game normally.
>because they're the result of the rules printed in the rulebook, they're right about the rules, and they play more games than you do.
Clearly not if you think some of those spells don't require concentration and martials should never have magic kit.

>>98713075
All I'm reading is "I wasted my Bonus Action with useless movement tech when I could have just used my extra unarmed strike or Flurry of Blows because I have to waste my BA to fly". Also that piddly Typhoon strike fails to live up to its name honestly, I'm running with my own revision to paladin (part of my larger rules overhaul the GM is using because it's just better than base 5.5) and I get a 4e style whirlwind strike once per turn that can shit out 6d6 Slashing damage on a failed save or half on success to everything within 10 feet of me. No resource other than one of my two attacks per turn and the limitation I can only use one of these options per round. Can't smite on it either because it's not an attack, but I can do that then smite whoever's saved for 3d8 Radiant with no slot, only a use expended (out of 3 since the uses scale like 2024 ranger's hunter's mark).

The best condition in any TTRPG is Dead. If you aren't aiming to inflict that condition on your enemies as quickly as possible, you're wasting your resources, be it Focus/Ki, health, whatever. Again, I have a temp fly speed. In no situation would I ever be stupid enough to waste my Bonus Action gaining a pointless fly speed that I can only use Once per Long Rest with 30 feet of speed. I have an Armorer Artificer, a Moon Druid, and a Shadow Sorcerer in the party. I will never, ever need to deal with a flying enemy because I have an armorer with jet boots, a druid that can become a flying creature, and a sorcerer who can just snipe motherfuckers with spells.

The only time I'd ever care about a Fly Speed is if it was permanent and free, and even then I'd probably never really use it. I play other systems where flight is so common that as far as I'm concerned it's nothing special, especially when my party can handle threats I can't.

>>98710677
Every time the party levels up, tell the martials they level up twice. As long as you don't tell the casters they won't notice.

>>98713165
You basically just wrote a lot of words to say you don't need to care about mobility because you have three other party members with very good mobility. Good? The other PCs in my group feel the same way about me. The fact is exploration is as much a part of the game as combat, and being able to get into and out of places is useful in a ton of situations. Moreover even in combat if you have no good mobility options you should be getting fucked up by things like difficult terrain, cover, long ranged attacks and fast enemies. If you're level 10+ and you're still just a regular ass knight your DPS is basically irrelevant because you won't be able to reach the things killing you.

As to the idea specifically of it taking a bonus action, it depends on the level you're at and the other limitations of like level options. Fly is an action to use, only lasts 10 minutes, and requires Concentration. That means you're wasting a full turn to get it on in any kind of impromptu fight or ambush, and can lose concentration and take a ton of fall damage unless you're the one wizard in ten who prepares Featherfall. Flying mounts, flying items, and full fly speeds are all better but those are higher level options generally speaking unless you just find a broom of flying or something. My PC is level 6. If I was level 14 when sorcerers are getting full fly speeds and Paladins have summonable flying mounts I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

My only complaint is the lack of a middle option. Rising Dragon Monks get Ascendant Step at level 6 and true flight at level 17. Dropping the bonus action requirement somewhere in between would make it more useful in the low double digits where better options are becoming available.

>>98713082
>And Wizards don't have class features that grant them Spell Scrolls.
they do

>>98713209
Which class feature lets them get free spell scolls.
>THEY CAN WRITE SCROLLS!
Doesn't count. They can't learn those spells.

>>98713222
>What power lets them write spell scrolls!

"Well the crafting rules say they can-"

>NOooooo! I meant lets them write them for no gold and of spells they don't know!

"That's not what you said."

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>>98713222

>>98713247
He's talking about 5E

>>98713251
and I'm not

which means we're not talking about 5e

>>98712963
No, pf2 sucks because they decided that the fighter is the ceiling when it comes to effectiveness

Meaning everything else must be at par or worse
And since every encounter is based upon that optimized math if what the fighter can achieve, not optimizing just means you perform worse.

While on pf1 you could afford to not ruthlessly optimize and do ok based on what the monsters and challenges were balanced around, or optimise and perform better, in pf2 your "baseline" is assumed to be that of an optimised build with everything being worse

>>98712960
Because sometimes people don't want to play the 500 IQ class and just want something simple.

Perhaps because they are just starting to get into the hobby rather than being a level 99 original sweatlord

>>98713165
>He uses homebrew
Guffaw
No worse even
>He writes homebrew

>>98713571
>500 IQ class
Casterfag fingers typed this

>>98713795
>Casterfag fingers typed this
Martialtard fingers typed this

>>98713799
>>98713795
"retard hands type this"
>retard hands typed this
retard hands typed this
t- retard hands.

>>98712790
They basically are a mini hulk. I pointing to how relabeling things can give you more flexibility. Rename rage, or have rage be one of several options. They're able to tap into some power to powerup.

For example, what if as an alternative to the berserker rage was instead more like a stampede, like juggernaut from xmen. What if they're a little guy and actually do hulk out and get bigger when they trigger their ability. What if you're heman and you get a magic sword that powers you up for a short time when you say your catchphrase. Replace the sword with a wand and that's a magical girl.

I think people have probably done some of these things before, but my point is with most of those they stop being a 'barbarian'. The mechanic is in the same class, but the name no longer fits. So what do you call it instead? No idea. Call it anything else and no one recognizes it, call it barbarian and you're locked into one thing.

When it comes to monk you just need to ask is everything meant to be to allow an unarmed class, or a martial arts class? If the former, lean into that more, call it something broader without religious implications or bastardized eastern magic philosophy. Put your kung fu fighters and your tavern brawlers and pit fighters all under the same big tent. They kind of are, but they're not fully committed.

>>98713018
there is no reason whatever to arbitrarily divide character concepts into magic and not magic. effects matter. not sources.

>>98713030
there's no difference between dealing damage with a weapon and dealing damage with magic.

>>98707340
>Magic users have access to every single spell, unlimited castings
No one has 8 encounters per day, wotc, stop with this shit
balance the game around what people actually play

>>98713060
3.5 is the only edition, idiot.

>>98713082
more than enough to learn every good spell with plenty left over, yeah. And wizards can take scribe scroll and craft wondrous item, so yes, they do in fact have class features that grant them access to scrolls and magic items. fighters do not. all of the magic crafting feats require caster levels. don't reply to this thread again untilyou've read the rulebook.

>>98712931
>Wizard, cleric and all those that out of the box get to step into the supernatural have a 1-20 track
>Halfcasters have a ,1-15 track
A level 6 cleric/wizard/druid/bard is already way above what most of the martial classes can do
The actual solution is
>non-magical? level 4 tops
you wanna be a regular joe in a world full of magic, that's fine but you're constrained by reality, just like you wanted.
>magical? Sky is the limit

>>98713087
No they don't.
Anything not granted by a class feature is DM pity.

>>98713199
The game is nothing but combat. Exploration doesn't matter. If the DM wants you to reach a location or find something, you will.

>>98713251
Not a real edition.

>>98713571
A concept doesn't have to be complex to not be a waste of a party slot, so this isn'ta reason for the fighter to have to suck. Try again.

>>98714369
Pretty much what I said yeah
Or put martials in the NPC Statblocks section

>>98714352
Ok source me an instant wall of stone or magical force. Source me an infallible shot that always hits (magic missile). Source me mass hypnosis, petrification, mind control, memory rewriting, planar traveling, demiplane creation, animal transformation, teleportation and many other effects without magic.

I'll wait

>>98714718
what does "source me" mean? is English your first language?

>>98714912
You said the effect matters and not the source.
So yeah, source me what I listed above without the character using magic or shut up

>>98715020
well? what does "source me" mean?

>>98715024
Use your imagination and the context provided, I'm sure you can figure it out champ

>>98715062
I accept your concession, retard.

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>>98715024
NTA but source can be used as a verb. That anon is asking you to find a source of producing those effects without using magic.

>>98715165
Right, and when I said "sources don't matter", I wasn't referring to rulebooks. Moron.

>>98715188
Goalposts: moved
Gas: lighted

>>98715208
Nope.

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>>98712683
Having no out of combat abilities works in video games because they're preprogrammed linear dog shit where you can't do anything but fight.

But in a freewheeling traditional RPG medium where you can do whatever the fuck comes to mind, you can't get away with that. It will suck shit and you will get mogged hard and constantly no matter how high your to hit and damage.

It's an inherently unwinnable position to be the "fighting guy".

>>98712984
Imagine a heist team repeatedly pulling heists, avoiding fights, and never getting better at pulling heists because you've anchored experience to something that has nothing to do with what they're doing. It's complete fucking nonsense. Most editions of the game don't actually have this problem, and earning XP for avoiding an encounter and still accomplishing your goal is called out as the intended result in the 3.5 DMG.

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>>98714378
I'm sorry your DM works for the railroad company. A good DM just creates a goal or situation and sees what happens. When I DM I don't think 'Here's whats going to happen'. I just narrate a location and the NPCs involved and if it goes tits up I guess it goes tits up. So I guess I should amend my statement to "Exploration and mobility is very important if your DM is competent'. If he doesn't use obstacles out of combat or tactics and terrain in combat then I guess you're right and the only thing that matters is doing a bajillion damage while standing perfectly still against enemies who line up like its an old school Final Fantasy game.

>>98715431
DnD isn't a heist simulator. You kill monsters and take their shit.

>>98715468
Whatever you need to tell yourself, idiot.

>>98715481
>Game is called *Dungeons* and Dragons
>A core aspect is obtaining treasure from said dungeons
>Oldest versions of the game gave you more XP for stealing treasure without fighting than you got for killing monsters
>Not a heist simulator.

>>98715498
Yeah, it's not. Thanks for finally catching up to the rest of the class, retard.

>>98715488
>>98715501
We don't sign our posts here.

>>98715506
Reply if it's not a heist simulator, retard :)

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>>98715488
Oh come on. I'm writing effort posts and this is the best trolling you can do? Just a 'no u'? This is just bad craftsmanship, what kind of shitposter puts this little effort into it? What next, are you going to bump this thread to the bump limit with one line shallow dismissals of anyone who articulates an opinion one way or another? At least stir shit along legitimate lines of division, or better yet give a poorly reasoned but reasonable opinion and defend it badly while always circling back to your core point no matter how many times its refuted. THAT makes for a good troll.

>>98715514
Wait, these trashposts are effort for you? holy shit LOL

>>98715519
See? Back in my day trolling meant something. You under-30s just don't understand. Just straight to goading the reaction, no appreciation for the process. I blame the cell phones.

DOESN'T EVEN DENY IT LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>98715468
>tfw railroading DM cancels game because there's a railroad strike but while he's there the pinkertons show up and shoot him

>>98715514
>What next, are you going to bump this thread to the bump limit with one line shallow dismissals of anyone who articulates an opinion one way or another?
i mean yeah that's kinda his gimmick, that and indirect replying with the same thing
it's just noise that most people ignore

>STILL hasn't presented any reasoning or an argument
KEK

>>98706316
If you don't play D&D, how do you know what the monk and barbarian are like in that game? I mean, how would you know if they're underwhelming or not?

>>98715663
He said "why do people here say..."
He doesn't know. Buy people here have said it. So he asked why they said it.

>>98706410
Even the vermin that play D&D don't understand how their own system works. If you're cheating enough that you have infinite spell slots and all the spells selected to be cast at any time, then you should explain that to your GM so that they can be made aware of how powerful your magic users are.

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>>98715514
>I'm writing effort posts
>>98715519
>>98715528

>>98715669
So he's extra deceitful? Because in the same places "people here say" those things, they spend literally hundreds of thousands of words to explain why they are saying it.
And you're aiding and abetting the trolling. Which is explicitly against the posting rules here.

>>98715701
shut up retard.

>>98715698
you don't even get the irony LOL

>>98715506
>>98713805
yes we do
t.- retard hands.

>>98715410
This
The "fighting guy" should be reserved for hirelings and similar

>>98715663
>>98715701
>>98715669
I don't get why this is decitfull , its decitfull because people write a lot?.

t.- OP.

>>98706636
>That's because the ways they're supernatural are incredibly underwhelming or just aren't represented in the slightest
but then why make supernatural at all?

its like making a hacker that can access to that mystical library people think you can access irl , but only so that he can remenber his passwords better.

>>98714388
>T. Level 99 Sweatlord

Thanks for proving my point

>>98715802
it's not, he's just retarded.

>>98706316
Because of many reasons.
>Gameplay is far too heavy on combat
>Combat is generally boring from a mechanical perspective since there are few options that are mechanically worthwhile over swing sword
>Non-combat ability largely tied to dice rolls you perform poorly at, or requires creativity beyond what most people possess
>Combat alternatives to swing sword are hard gated behind resources
>Game masters generally fail to push caster resource management enough, and rightly so because swing sword followed by cast eldritch blast is more boring than level one spells
>Casters get too much functionality at low levels, meaning that at high levels they can just start burning lvl 1 and 2 slots on good shit while fighters still swing sword.
>Most of what makes martials cool in other fantasy media is wholly absent or too hard for little payoff (called shots, acrobatics, special techniques).

>>98715431
If that's your campaign you would be much better off using a different system than D&D. Have you tried not playing D&D?

>>98715410
Buddy, if you're too autistic to roleplay without mechanics that dictate the results just say so. Us competent players don't need big numbers next to social skill words on a piece of paper to do things.

>>98719243
Social skills are a meme. I'm talking about tangible, objective shit.

>>98719645
Autism:100

>>98721111
Roleplay your way into crafting a magic sword.

>>98721125
Why would I ever craft a magic sword if I use magic?

>>98714356
>No one has 8 encounters per day, wotc, stop with this shit
The few times we ever doing something like this, it wasn't even the spellcasters that were causing us to rest. Overwhelmingly when we had to stop to rest during several encounters it was because the martials were dying, and it was either rest so they don't die or we lose several characters.

>>98719243
You can RP as much as you want as a fighter, most GM’s will still ask for a Persuasion check and you will most likely fail. Then the Charisma caster will get annoyed you “stepped on their toes”.

>>98715802
It's deceitful because the people whining either don't actually play D&D, or are terrible at the game and don't understand it. This is why they don't understand simple concepts like "cast Bull's Strength on the fighter" or "take skill ranks and actually use them".

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>>98719645
If you can't think of out of combat uses for general physical superiority, I can only imagine it's because you're a scrawny nerd.

>>98721904
And a good GM will give you a bonus for good roleplay. Or, you could be aware of things like Samurai, a 5e subclass that makes Fighter a face on par with a Bard. It's not AS easy in 3.5, but being socially competent mechanically isn't really difficult.

>>98722225
Cross-class skills and 2+INT skill points put you pretty squarely in paying twice as much to not do anything.

>>98722345
Legitimately a skill issue, pun very intended

>>98721697
>Overwhelmingly when we had to stop to rest during several encounters it was because the martials were dying, and it was either rest so they don't die or we lose several characters.
I heard this point before , does this mean that if all martials had interesting in dept healing systems to heal them tons AND ALSO their were a ton of encounters , would people be happy.

>>98722901
I am OP.

>>98722901
No, it just means the casters aren't pulling their weight because their players are selfish and suck at the game

>>98722345
Right, Fighters also get a ton of bonus feats, which means they can spend a normal feat slot on Skill Focus and get a nice little bump into "not incompetent" range. It doesn't make them a face but it does mean they're not stuck with a zero.

>>98722901
That means the healer wasn't doing his job, but the martials were, which is to take damage so other, more fragile party members don't. Healing is more effective when you only have to heal one guy, not four.

>>98722901
It means martials can't function without casters.

>>98706316
It's just an excuse. magic dominates late and martial early, most campaigns cover early then end before magic comes online so magic players want martial weaker.

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>>98723104
>magic dominates late and martial early
There is a better way, WOTC just won't do it.

>>98723104
Wizards are top tier from level 1. Shit like Sleep and Color Spray cannot be beat in a fight, plus they have dozens of actually useful utility spells.

Playing a low level martial fucking sucks because they die to a lucky crit just like the casters, and yet unlike them they have no realistic way to control the situation. They have no choice but to stand there and get hit.

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>>98723138
>Wizards are top tier from level 1
What happens in the next encounter when they don't have those spells prepped anymore? Because 3.5 is designed to run on 4 challenging encounters da day, and if your argument is based on not running the game that way you're wrong by default.

>>98723149
Encounter =/= fight, and wizards get a lot more skill points than fighters.

But if you were planning to actually run 4 fights a day every day then the fighters just fucking die anyways.

>>98706316
People never fucking say martials "need" to be underwhelming, they say that WoTc is dogshit at making martials do anything but either: I smack em a buncha times for decent damage or I smack them once for a ton of damage.

There's also the fact that Wotc and people in general tend to gloss over more "mundane" things and situations that require the party tend to often be more supernatural and thus the few out of combat abilities martials get are usually superseded by the wizard/bard going "I'll use arcana to check out the magic mcguffin"

>>98723162
>Encounter =/= fight
Fair enough, but it's still something they can only do once every 8 hours.
>then the fighters just fucking die anyways.
If the healer isn't doing his job maybe. And if the fighter isn't doing his job the wizard doesn't last beyond the second encounter anyway.

>>98723173
Or alternatively, maybe nobody would even need to be healed if they all had a few more castings of Sleep instead of a martial.

>>98723173
>If the healer isn't doing his job maybe.
they're level 1, the healer don't got much gas in the tank yet bud

>>98723185
One arrow from the dark kills a level 1 wizard, no matter how many Sleeps he can cast.
>>98723193
Literal skill issue, your cleric sucks if that keeps happening to you.

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>casters won't have enough spell slots because they have to waste them on martials

>>98722901
That sounds like pf2e dogshit
Where cleric healing is limited by spell slots while normal healing is "lol what are resources?" Meaning that encounters are balanced on everyone having full hp at the start.

So no, that's a no go

>>98723042
how much health points do healers tend to give , or is it more situational , do they really give enough.

>>98724121
well martials would still be weaker than casters in theory right? , so you don't have to balance around people always being at full health , the point being if you balance people having limited hp , but you allow martials to heal and be perpetual motion machines they become good and game desing is forever good.

which is a little bit idealistic , but the what I want to get is that you should not desing around everyone having full hp , so that it can be a usefull strengh for your player characters that play as non casters.

I don't have a point about it being existencially lame or just kind of stupid for martials to heal each over and over though , maybe it feels really bad as an idea in practice on tables.

ITT:
>I need the martials to be better healers than clerics
>I need martials to be better shmoovers than bards
>I need martials to be more "swiss army knife"-y than wizards

YOU ARE THERE TO SOAK DAMAGE AND HIT THINGS WITH A STICK

STAY IN YOUR LANE

>>98723227
>>98723209
>>98723193
>>98723173
>>98723162
>>98723042
but isn't rellying to much on healers missing the point that martials inherently deal better with longer missions because their attacks don't use a resource , I guess it depends on how defensive they can be/how much a single point of hp is better on a martial than a caster.

but if martials need hp to attack on practial terms , then they also need resources and as such their attacks are weak spells in a wierd sense.

if healers can fix that , they would have to fix that in a way that would not mean that casters also have the same benefit.

>>98724201
>YOU ARE THERE TO SOAK DAMAGE
self healing would help with that.

>>98724206
consistent mediocrity just isn't a valuable niche

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Assuming the goal is not to completely rebuild D&D from scratch the answer is to just make the game so all the classes are about as strong as the T2 and T3 classes in 3.X edition but in a better ruleset. This means in practice that every class without spell-casting gets either a list of powers to choose from anyway (like Manuevers) which should cover combat, saving throw+magic resistances, perceptions, and mobility at bare minimum OR if you must have a dummy class it should be bonkers powerful in all of these categories by means of preselected options. The actual casting classes need to lose the ability to prepare spells or stop being full casters. There is no way to balance the Wizard as written. You cannot have a character who can learn essentially any ability (since magic in D&D lacks thematic boundaries or hard limits) *and* can swap out their entire build daily. The Wizard should be replaced with a Mage (who gets partial casting and spell preparation across all schools), specialists like Evoker or Illusionist who get full casting in a couple schools and spell preparation) and a Wizard who functions like a 3.X psion where he gets all schools and full casting but his spells are learned only by level up and are not prepared).

The attempts to fix the game by math correction are stupid, the issue is that D&D magic is thematically unlimited and the mere process of spell-selection is too powerful when combined with full casting. You need to either limit thematic (the Specialists), limit full casting (the Mage) or limit preparation (the Wizard). But a balanced magic class cannot have all three in D&D as its played now. If you want that you've got to bring back a lot of old school shit like multiple turns of casting for stronger spells and hours-to-days of spell preparation. (and still buff the fighter). But anything that plays remotely like 'modern' D&D needs to pick one of those three and cut it off any given magic class.

>>98724226
Guess which class gets the most benefits from the vast majority of magic items

The fighting man being mediocre is only so because people ignore 3/4th of the treasure table

>>98724260
The cleric?

>>98724260
There's no rule that says only fighting men can use magic items. If I'm a fighter with 6 magic items and the other guy is a wizard with 6 magic items I still suck ass even ignoring the massive design problems of trusting class and party balance to a randomized treasure table.

>>98724227
I mean if its only the wizard who is super OP , we can just let him be the Kusoge class

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>>98724343
Its a tier list. Generally in any edition of D&D its
>Top Tier: Prepared full casters
>High Tier: Preset full casters
>Mid Tier: Well-made specialist classes and half-casters
>Low Tier: Poorly made specialists and purely mundane classes

All quality attempts to fix D&D require you to basically pick the tier you like and rebalance the other classes to fit inside it.

>>98724227
>>98724343
also this is more of a general vibes question , but why isn't monkish enlightenment and qi kunfu not assumed to be as limitless as a wizard.

in theory a monk could make everything but they are in the conversation as being a very useless class.

>>98724355
I feel like you could for example still keep the top tier classes as top tier if the floor was in the high tier pushing a little bit inot mid tier.

its different to have 2 classes that are more powerfull than everyone else if its only 2 classes and everyone else makes sense and "fits in".


also can I ask , would you think that the monk and barabarian to be purely mundane?.

>>98724356
The real answer has nothing to do with which classes are the writer's favorites or any kind of bias and more to do with the fact D&D has developed in iterations but its biggest issues are considered part of the game's brand identity. Giving martials a fully fleshed out power system like Tome of Battle or 4E did invariably incites players who claim its making 'everyone casters' or 'too samey' no matter how hard you try to differentiate it. My favorite monks (laserllama's alt-Monk and the Tome Monk) actually do give you a list of powers to choose from as you level up, and they do narratively scale to a large degree (The former can kick buildings down and the latter punch holes into the Planes at higher levels). But it'll never get put in the core game because a loud and sizable portion of the fanbase wants the fighting classes to visually resemble Aragorn or Gimli at all levels, while insisting the magic classes continue looking like Doctor Strange because its tradition.

>>98706412
>I mean for fuck's sake monks can't even jump good
well, another system I'm going to skip then, they got me into trying 5e, I didn't even read 5.5e. Thanks for the heads up

I can't believe the most fun I had with the class monk was in PF1e and he could do all kinds of athletic bullshitery almost like Spider-man and this was like 10 years ago

>>98724362
You're right of course, keeping the classes within spinning distance works too. You can role balance and pass out magic items for classes that aren't balanced but are close enough. And broadly yes I would, though I should clarify what I mean by 'fully mundane' is any class without a list of level-gated powers they expand as they level up OR specialized supernatural powers that fill a niche well. Monks and barbarians in Fifth can kind of reach into that tier if they're built well and you pick a good subclass, or you use a better made homebrew variant.

>>98724369
>a loud and sizable portion of the fanbase wants the fighting classes to visually resemble Aragorn or Gimli at all levels, while insisting the magic classes continue looking like Doctor Strange because its tradition.
This is so common, I thought it was a meme repeated here years ago when I had my group back in highschool and everybody was cool but once I moved to college and started jumping from new group to new group that mentality is so prevalent and common is disgusting. And it is always the same, the uberwizard who flies at will complaining when a martial jumps 20 meters long

>>98724370
I will note that *one* variant of the 2024 Monk gets flight that's basically at will given it only costs 1 ki, but you don't get it till level 11 and there's no good jump power before then since Step of the Wind sucks since monks don't tend to have great strength. So you can be flat out Goku if you're willing to wait but that's a long wait for most games. There's another that can learn the fly spell but its even later at level 13.

Meanwhile warlocks can get at-will Jump to leap 30 feet at level *two*.

>>98724383
Luckily I only see it on the internet. Every IRL group I've ever had has been pretty chill with weird or powerful characters of whatever stripe. So finding niche or homebrew classes or combos is how I've always played D&D.

>>98724369
>But it'll never get put in the core game because a loud and sizable portion of the fanbase wants the fighting classes to visually resemble Aragorn or Gimli at all levels, while insisting the magic classes continue looking like Doctor Strange because its tradition.
this is what I ment about classes being underwhelming because they are not supernatural in the OP.

but then can I ask you again anon , I understand why someone would care about having classes that are ment to be grounded that relly on their own skill and wit , a normal knight trying to defeat a lich can be cool and have its place.
but monks and barbarians are not actually normal people in the slightlest , they already break that definition by using rage and qi.

so it makes sense that a fighter is at a similar power level to bilbo or aragon.

but a monk should be at the power level of a jedy no?
or at the power level of a nen user.

I guess barabarians have conan as impiration and he mostly doesn't do super magical things.

but is their anything holding back the monk other than the fact he uses his fists and the self causing situation that he is problably underwellming from being more blatantly supernatural , because he has always been underwellming?

the monk is allready blatantly supernatural , I don't think he uses magic in dnds terms , but he deff be considered a magical person in real life , so why is he not seen as free was the wizard inherently , the budda literally became a super god when he became enlightened , a lot of powerfull magical people in fiction have been generic monks.

>>98724227
>>98724355
>Avatarfagging

Go back to shitcord

>>98724227
>the answer is to just make the game so all the classes are about as strong as the T2 and T3 classes in 3.X

That's what 4e and pf2 did
And both turned out to be shit exactly because of that

>>98724369
If you dislike tradition that much then NU-SR is what you want.
Is like OSR but instead of basing themselves on Gygax's work they decided to slaughter all the "sacred cows" and now they base themselves on...
What?
The gluten-free yogurt?

>>98724514
tried pf2e once and had a bad time, but I think the blame was on the premise: Gm wanted to port our pf1e game to pf2e and it failed misserably. It's a different game with different expectatives (on classes and roles for starters), etc my character ended working very different to pf1e, couldn't adapt most of the defining traits from him to 2e, basically the only things in common were name and name of the class and some of the stats. Fuck even features and feats that have literally the same name as ones in 1e work 100% different (medusa wrath for example).

the fact that the devs kept saying you could 100% port any 1e character to 2e in the official forum when I asked how to port it also made me dislike it more

>>98724522
The premise was wrong because you went from a good game (pathfinder) to a shit one (2e).
It's not that deep

>>98723039

Early on in 3e maybe, but as things progressed and feat chains got more and more bloated taking filler feats like Skill Focus became more and more untenable.

>>98723039
Skill Focus doesn't get you into the non-incompetent range past the very low levels, and you've sunk all of your skill points into social skills leaving you completely useless at any other kind of challenge. 3.5's DCs are not friendly to you if you're not specializing.

>>98724514
No, those games built around T4.

>>98724206
>rellying to much on healers
You also have to account for characters being built for close combat, being harder to hit and having more health to absorb the punishment. It's not just about only one guy needing healing, it's that he has more health than the caster and takes less damage at the same time.

>>98729498
yea but their is a certain point of overall healing where starting health becomes useless outside of just burst damage , in an endurance context.

now if martials are also better at keeping their health , with higher defenses and stuff , that changes the problem significantly , but the problem is still a potencial pitfall.

>>98726688
>past the very low levels
Ok. It's still enough for things like haggling, dealing with a town guard or talking some village girl into a beej behind the barn. You're not going to be negotiating peace treaties between warring kings but D&D is a team game, you have a guy for that.
>you've sunk all of your skill points into social skills
Highly debatable
>leaving you completely useless at any other kind of challenge
Buddy I think you should go re-read what Fighters have for skills in 3.5, they're never going to be good at any skill checks no matter what you do. The best you can hope for is to handle the easy stuff early on, like not drowning in a fast moving river. The best you're ever going to achieve is "non-incompetent" either way.

>>98729503
In theory, in D&D you run four level-appropriate encounters a day, and each one should consume about 25% of a party's resources, which includes healing. The issue I see come up the most often is, a lot of DMs don't do that. So casters don't have to RATION their spells and it gives the impression they're far more capable than they really are. But I say in theory because the higher level you get, the more that premise falls appart.

>>98729517
Already a fight takes four hours to resolve and you want to do 4 per adventuring day? By the time you are halfway through the first half of the campaign everyone will be pushing 60

>>98729654
Then you reduce the amount of resources, mainly spell slots, to match whatever the encounter rate is. Surely at least 2. Of course that's only if you believe dnd to be a resource management game, and the current developers are not in agreement.

>>98729517
nobody plays like this because it's autistic and stupid

>>98730971
yeah. That's the point retard. The game is designed for that but no one does it. That's the structural flaw in DnD's core, this imbalance. Everyone works around it or ignores it to keep games more casual. It's as autistic as keeping track of item weight to actually pull off.

>>98730971
4 per day isn't that bad, 8 per day is actually insane though.

>>98724260
Guess which classes can't qualify for any feats that allow it to make magic items.

Guess which classes don't need magic items to be relevant to the game.

Random treasure is not a class feature, and as such does not make a class good.

Item dependence makes a character worse. Not better.

>>98734883
When creating a character of a certain level it is explicitly mentioned they should have a certain amount of magic items tho. So it's not just random treasure, I'm sorry you can't read the DM guide as a holistic whole rather than hyperfixate on single pages in isolation

>>98724260
>gets the most value out of magic items
>still doesn't scale as well as clerics, wizards or sorcerers without magic items
and that's forgetting that most of the great items like immovable rod or wing of flying. sure a defender is great but give wings of flying to a sorcerer with distant spell and you'll outdo any fighter of the same level with 6 magic items

>>98735306
Just don't give them those items, easy

>>98730971
Caster players don't like it because it makes them ration spells. It's OK to not like that design philosophy, but if you ignore it then complain that the game doesn't run well, that's your own fucking fault then isn't it?
>>98729654
>a fight takes four hours to resolve
Skill issue

>>98735306
I guarantee I can kit out a Fighter to win that confrontation.

>>98735306
fear the +8 to hit at level 1 longbow fighter sharpshooter, puny spellsniper

>>98723039
>UNIRONICALLY WASTING A FEAT SLOT ON FUCKING SKILL FOCUS

holy shit bro you're just like completely unaware of all discussion of the game from the last like 40 fucking years huh? lmao

>>98736337
Most of the discussion about 3.5 is fucking wrong anyway, my friend.

>>98736337
>unironically thinking there's enough worthwhile feats in 3.5 that a class that gets 18 won't have slots to spare

>>98735367
>just give them magic items
>just don't give casters magic items
so fightards need blatant pandering in two directions in order to even be viable

>>98736419
That's how older editions worked, magic items were part of a fighter's class features.

>>98723173
What healer?

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>>98723209
Okay. Let's see what the actual rules written in the rulebook have to say on the matter.

At 1st level, a cleric heals (2 to 9) x2 hp, or 11 average, per rest.

Refer to the stats below. I simply picked the first monster with a challenge rating of 1 or less. Thus, our cleric can heal the equivalent of about 4 attacks from a CR 1, or about 6 attacks from a CR 1/2. So if there are 4 attackers, he can negate a single round of damage. Wow, amazing. Such heals. Many health.

>>98724201
Not a legitimate character concept, sorry.

>>98724206
Their resource is hitpoints.

A single hp is much more valuable for a caster. Casters have meaningful abilities, and they have far more ways of avoiding, mitigating, or negating damage than fighters. And damage is the least effective method of defeating opponents in the game.

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>>98724370

>>98735257
"The DM should do this" isn't a rule and it certainly is not a class feature. It's also not an argument in favor of fighters, since it applies to every class equally.

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>>98735367

>>98736285
Feel free to try any time.

>>98724369
>invariably incites players who claim its making 'everyone casters' or 'too samey' no matter how hard you try to differentiate it
I don't want to play with those niggerfaggots and don't even want them in the hobby. Fuck them.

>>98736345
Most of the discussion you've participated in, apparently. lmao.

>>98736345
No. Stop playing with a babby DM who won't push you.

>>98736413
You could give fighters skill focus for every single skill in the game for free and it wouldn't matter. You could give fighters EVERY FEAT THEY QUALIFY FOR AT LEVEL 1 and they still wouldn't be relevant. Retard.

>>98736413
Yes.

You have:

Weapon Supremacy (which requires 4 fucking junk prerequisite feats and 1 decent one)
Power Attack
Cleave
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Elusive Target
Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit
Defensive Sweep
Combat Brute
Keen Intellect because it frees you from some MAD, or Steadfast Determination
Three Mountains
Spirited Charge
Leap Attack
Shock Trooper
High Sword Low Axe
Lightning Maces
Pierce Magical Concealment + Protection
Mage Slayer
Stand Still
Martial Study + Martial Stance for Thicket of Blades
Evasive Reflexes
Shield Ward
Before ring of freedom of movement, Close-Quarters Combat

And this is just what I remember off of the top of my head, and so many of them have shit feats as prerequisites.

>>98736472
see >>98736721 >>98736728

>>98736299
>protection from arrows

>>98736242
>Caster players don't like it because it makes them ration spells.
Martial players don't like it because it kills them.

>>98736242
>t's OK to not like that design philosophy, but if you ignore it then complain that the game doesn't run well, that's your own fucking fault then isn't it?

If one person uses your product wrong it's their fault. If everyone uses your product wrong it's your fault. It is actively difficult to run the game 'as intended' because there are very few narrative situations in which 4+ encounters a day makes sense. Its far more often the case to run into 1-3, and 3 is pushing it. When large numbers of 'encounters' do occur it tends to be in a place like a dungeon where hour long Short Rests between fights make no sense because the multiple encounters are more accurately one big encounter broken into stages. And as this anon noted, even if you try to do this its usually the martials who gas out first because they're front row.
>>98736862
At that point, where running it as intended makes no sense, is prohibitively difficult, and even when forced through tends to result in the *opposite* of the intended result and playstyle? It is not a design choice anymore, its a design failure.

>>98737459
narrative situation? it's a game, not a story.

>>98737459
>to run into 1-3, and 3 is pushing it
not the same anon , me op.

but can't you just have like a lot of mini encounters of 1 guy trying to kill you quickly.

or 1 encounter where they are running away as an ambush and then later one actual encounter.
could this work?

like if you are in a steampuck city , have 5 encounters that are basically just mafia style hits.

>>98737498
Here it is, the dumbest post in the thread.
>>98737500
Yes, in fact that's usually what happens when I have a ton of 'encounters' in my game. The issue is that these tend to firstly not be full powered encounters so they don't burn a lot of resources and secondly even if they do, you can't short rest between them. What the game is basically asking you to do is Encounter, Encounter, Short Rest, Encounter Encounter, Short Rest, Encounter Encounter, Long Rest

Which is ridiculous. There's very few natural story situations where that makes sense. Its like saying 'okay we wake up in the morning and we're attacked by bandits. We beat the bandits and travel, we cross a river BOOM fish people attack. We get into town, someone tries to mug us, we beat them and go about our business. The guards attack because the muggers lied and said we started it, we get that sorted out just in time for the nobleman's ball and defend him from assassin's and then a huge boss monster'.

That's a busy ass day, and realistically the martials are going to be out of Hit Dice and low on health by the time you get mugged, everyone's going to be annoyed OOC by the tedious pace of these back to back 1-2 hour long fights, its just not likely to work as intended where you run 4-8 encounters which are all hard enough to drain resources but also specifically drain the resources of the backrow faster than the front row and don't take too much time to run. Its bad design even if you TRY to run it 'as intended' because its too hard to do, doesn't make sense narratively very often, and the front row gasses first almost by definition.

>>98737607
Here it is, a guy that can't even refute the dumbest post in the thread. LMAO

>>98737612
See
>>98715514

>>98737631
So no reasoning? KEK

>>98736733
Ok. The premise is a Fighter with six items, vs a sorcerer with Wings of Flying and the Distant Spell feat. Those are the proposed parameters, no changing it now. Six items:
>Custom use-activated True Strike item, all attacks now have +20 to hit
>Custom use-activated Dimension Door item
>Manacles enchanted with an Antimagic Field
>+5 weapon with Warning for the +5 initiative bonus, call it a spiked gauntlet so it's hands free.
>Gloves of Titan's Grip, +8 to grapple checks. +28 with the True Strike
>Burlap sack, because I don't need a 6th.
Even with middling Dex, the weapon plus Improved Initiative means the Fighter will go first almost every time. D-door to the sorcerer, grapple (which the Sorcerer will not win), pull out the manacles and all the magic goes away. That functionally auto-win grapple check still holds, even if the items are now inactive, they were active when the check was made. Even if you want to say the caster was already flying (and if you do you're saying he needs a free turn before the fight starts and...no) he'll just drop like a rock anyway, and the Fighter has immensely better odds of surviving that. Antimagic is an emanation, emanation effects are stopped by any physical object, so it won't affect anything outside the bag until the Fighter uses it, which he can do instantly since Quick Draw is a thing and makes pulling the manacles out of the sack a free action that he can still do after the grapple check. I don't know if you're the same guy, but you really should have specified official items only. But you didn't, so... And now let's see how the casterfags move the goalposts.

>>98736745
Nigger why TF are you talking about using Skill Focus in every slot? Did you not read ANY post about what was being talked about?

>>98736798
First off, Cleave is useless, anyone can tell you that. Second, Thicket of Blades? The fuck? WALL of Blades dingus, it can block touch attack spells. Also a lot of those tactical feats aren't what I would call good.

>>98736672
>about 6 attacks from a CR 1/2
Your premise fails because you assume they all hit. The most basic level 1 Fighter can have an AC of 17 without trying, and those things have a bonus of +1. So they have a 20% chance to hit. That means on a good day, two of those 6 attacks actually land.

>>98737459
>If everyone uses your product wrong it's your fault
I said "in theory" I don't know what else you want.

>>98738114
>He needs to use shitbrew
Martialfag cope reaching critical (role) levels

>>98737607
could you use monsters and change the rules for short resting to solve this , or are monsters generally something speaking something that should be always unable to enter a city.

safe form you engering something really magical.
the idea in theory is to have something that could genuinely chip away at the casters but that a martial could fold easily.

>>98738114
pretty sure he was talking about doing it in 5e

>>98738114
>Custom use-activated True Strike item, all attacks now have +20 to hit
This is a standard action, and insanely beyond WBL if not.
>Custom use-activated Dimension Door item
This outright disables your ability to do anything for the rest of the round, and is also a standard action.
>Manacles enchanted with an Antimagic Field
Torcs of antimagic are 10 ft.
>Gloves of Titan's Grip, +8 to grapple checks. +28 with the True Strike
True Strike doesn't apply to grapple checks.

>>98738134
>First off, Cleave is useless, anyone can tell you that.
No, Great Cleave is shit because the circumstances to activate it are rare. Normal Cleave is good.
>Second, Thicket of Blades?
Yes, the stance, that gets you an AoO literally every single round no matter what in conjunction with Defensive Sweep and Mage Slayer.
>Also a lot of those tactical feats aren't what I would call good.
You should.

>>98738155
Flanking and aid another says what?

>>98738123
Read the post again, slowly. Fucking moron.

>>98738114
Wow, you've never played a game in your life, have you? LOL

>>98738114
>Dimension Door
>You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. *After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.*
Nice strategy bro.

>>98738114
How do you propose to find the sorcerer to dimension door to him?

>>98738114
> In most cases, moving or manipulating an item is a move action. This includes retrieving or putting away a STORED ITEM
>Quick Draw
>You can draw a *WEAPON* as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a *HIDDEN WEAPON* (see the Sleight of Hand skill, page 81) as a move action. A character who has selected this feat may throw *WEAPONS* at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
So let's get this straight.
Your guy's strategy is to:
True Strike spam with an item you can't afford.
Dimension Door onto a guy with an item you can't afford, disabling your actions for the rest of the round regardless of it being a free action.
Grapple, a STANDARD ACTION you don't have, and which may not work depending on the rest of the Sorc's stuff, to grab the Sorc.
Take a MOVE ACTION you don't have to withdraw your AMF item, because Quick Draw does nothing and withdrawing an item takes a move action.
Draw an item while grappling, something you cannot do while grappling, because you are only allowed to draw a light weapon or spell components while grappling, very specifically.
Use the True Strike you had to buff grappling, a bonus True Strike never affects because it's not an attack roll.
The Sorcerer can ignore you with the Withdraw action to take flight because you're trying to get to him with Dimension Door and your action jam will always prevent you from grappling him.

>>98735257
Acknowledge that you were wrong IMMEDIATELY.

>>98738395
There's no homebrew there, kiddo. Rules for making magic items are core.
>>98738704
>beyond WBL
Not really, level 1 spell by a level 1 caster, it's crazy cheap. And use-activated means the spell's normal action to cast doesn't exist. Same for the D-door.
>Torcs
Ah, but manacles lock onto the sorcerer, he'd have to try to remove them with no magic, while getting beaten to death.
>grapple checks
Are still an attack roll.
>>98740408
More games than you.
>>98740735
>can't take other actions
Negated by the item being use-activated.
>>98740763
How do you propose the sorcerer hides unless you give him a free turn to get ready for the fight, and if the character needs a free turn to win, then it's not a win, you're stacking the deck in their favor.
>>98740781
Oh no, if only there was a way to use any item as a weapon, like a rule for improvised weapons. Oh wait, there is. Also, again, use-activated.

All these responses and no one noticed my actual mistake of saying he has a spiked gauntlet AND glove items. Missed your chance casterfags, now I can say it's a boot blade instead.

>>98738711
Normal cleave is middling at best, highly situational even if the DM obliges you with lots of enemy hordes. Fair enough with the stance, but the tactical feats? Few tactical feats are worth using, because there are other tactical feats that are objectively better.

>>98738777
Still too low to make much of a difference, kiddo. Maybe if they could get their bonus up to +7 (which those things do not do) you could claim HALF their attacks his. But they don't.

>>98740404
You're right, it does take a few re-reads to parse out your tardspeak. What you said still has nothing to do with what was being talked about.

>>98740996
Read it again.

>>98741005
Ok I'll spoon feed you. We were talking about what could be done to make a Fighter not useless in social situations. That's it. Not the viability of the class as a whole, you cock-gobbling retard.

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>>98741015
Ok I'll spoonfeed you. Here's what we're actually talking about. Retard.

>>98740962
I want to ask you anon , is your specific mage assasine iron man usefull in any other situation than getting close to flying people and droping them like rocks , sounds badass though.
but like could you do this to a dragon
-OP.

>>98740962
All casters have permanent greater invisibility active at all times, retard.

>>98740962
No retard putting a spell on an item does not miraculously make the spell's effects go away.

>>98740962
That's not what use-activated means.

Manacles don't do anything unless you spend an action to do something with them. You don't have an action to spend.

An attack roll requires an action, which you don't have.

>>98740962
>Not really, level 1 spell by a level 1 caster, it's crazy cheap.
Bonus squared * 1000 gp.
>And use-activated means the spell's normal action to cast doesn't exist.
This is wrong.
>Are still an attack roll.
No they are not. That's Pathfinder. You would buff the TOUCH ATTACK component of grappling and not your grapple bonus. And even if I gave you this, you don't have actions to take.
>Negated by the item being use-activated.
No it is not.

>>98740962
>Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
You first.

>>98740962
Use activation does not equate to free action spells you dumbass. Read the rules and understand them. These would be standard action spells and you would be better off having permanent spells which still wouldn't help you because Dimension Door turns off your actions for a round.

>>98740979
Cleave is good because you are very likely to have more than one enemy next to you in combat and it's a prerequisite for some of the best melee feats in the game. Great Cleave is shit because having 3+ enemies next to you in combat is a bad situation to be in if they're threatening, doesn't do anything because you won't drop 2+ enemies in all likelihood, or all the enemies are weak and then it doesn't matter that you had Great Cleave. All of those tactical feats are the cream of the crop of tactical feats.