>live in a fantasy world where the gods are objectively unquestionably real>gain free superpowers just for worshipping them>people still make characters that are basically agnostic/atheistic or act directly against the interest of several of the setting's major godswhy are playoids like this
>>98742167Because they grew up in a godless age where holding faith in anything is ridiculed or punished.
>>98742167>>gain free superpowers just for worshipping themIt's nowhere near that easy or free.
Name one player and their social security number that has done this
>>98742167because playing a holier-than-thou devout follower is boringi do not want to play a god bothererjust because god is real doesnt mean you should automatically be their slaveif anything, the gods rampant intervention in the physical world and not always making things better should be a good reason to doubt the need to worship themyou may recognize them as all-powerful beings but still very falliable and thus no need to directly worship themthey are gods in the greek sense, powerful but messed up, worship is strictly transactional or even simply due to fearthe players being atheists does not usually mean they do not belief zeus exists, just that worship out of fear of being hit by lightning bolts is not a good premise for a belief systemand given that DnD gods, or most settings, have some kind of binding agreement between them to not directly intervene in the world and only act through agents such as clericsthen you have an even better case not to believe in the gods as divine, they are clearly held back by each other giving you room to form your own beliefs
>>98742206>a-actually gods are bad! just like in real life! get btfo christchud!
>>98742184What does that have to do with fantasy systems where faith literally doesn't even enter the equation given that actual cold hard proof of the 'gods' in question exists for anyone to see?
>>98742184No they didn't you delusional retard, christcucks still make up the vast majority of the population.
>>98742216the gods dont need to be bad in order not to worship thema god can be a perfectly good guy, but if you dont agree with their positions than you dont need to worship themif you fear repercussion, either directly or inaction when you need it, then thats just a justification for why you shouldnt worship them as a god, since they clearly arent all that good to begin with
>>98742167Behaving in a godly way usually means boring kowtowing and moral recriminations. That isn't fun, doesn't even lead to fun, and this is a game.
>>98742167Because Humanity Fuck Yeah, that's why. I don't need some sky negro to bestow upon me gay magic. I will shape the world purely with the craterous impacts of my humongous adamantium testicles. Man will decide his own destiny.
>>98742167Licking someone's boots because he was born a powerful supernatural being and you weren't is cuck behavior.
It might be fun to play an actually atheist character if everyone treated you like you're genuinely insane for not believing in the existence of gods, or at worst like some kinda fringe conspiracy theorist loony
>>98742261literally not believing that the gods exist is a rarity among playerssimply not recognizing the gods as divine and instead as more of just being extremely powerful beings is how most people actually play them
>>98742167Because 70% of all real world and 97% of all fictional religions depict gods (unintentionally or not) as just Strong Beings™ with no deeper spiritual significance or wisdom.Loki is Just Some Guy.Illmater is Just Some Guy.Any god that's available for communication in Exalted is Just Some Guy.The Judaic/Christian/Islamic/Hindu concept of gods as fundamental & moral first causes is rare IRL and almost nonexistent in RPGs.Conversely very powerful people not caring about the gods is extremely well established.So yes this is neither absurd nor unheard of.Of course you neither play games nor understand religion nor want an actual answer but let's just pretend this isn't a soapbox.
>>98742184>Ridiculed or punished This is about fantasy games and also you're wrong.
>>98742216>>98742184>>98742167This is such a gay fucking thread holy mother of mercy.Unless the only source of supernatural powers is worship you getting powers from gods proves absolutely nothing about whether they are divine in any meaningful sense or deserving of worship in a moral way.This is the same logic as those NRx spastics who assert that Mark Zuckerberg or George Soros deserve to run the world because their wealth makes them the most fit to rule.
>>98742167Everything about fantasy world gods in DnD is retarded. The religions are all catholic coded despite the pantheon being greek coded. It's all created by people who have no clue about mythology or theology or fucking anthropology. You can make them work, but it requires a lot of work and world building on the GM's part. So you might as well scrap the pantheon and the setting and make your own of both. So no you're not pointing out anything interesting. You're looking at the least interesting problem with the religions in these games.
>>98742184>>98742216Nigga my character is literally from Glantri, can you explain how I'm somehow oppressing you irl?
>>98742371This is it exactly. The gods in these settings aren't all powerful entities. Their power is extremely limited, often requiring them to work through people in the world. They are like lords you can pledge your services to. So most people in any given setting don't do that. They don't pledge their service to gods. And of those that do there are mostly casual worshippers asking only minor amounts of protection. And among the ones actually hardcore following the god not all get powers.
>>98742373Ed Greenwood seems like a pleasant enough guy but he's done untold damage to fantasy.The way things work in Mystara has so much more style.
>>98742167>OP is pointing out how retards treat fantasy world gods like today's monotheistic religions where you either believe in an all powerful universe ruler or you don't>and not as most of history and the setting of the games depict gods: just really strong dudes who live on another plane who might look out for you if you look up to them.>OP is being retarded though by also viewing them through a modern monotheistic lens
>>98742383>And among the ones actually hardcore following the god not all get powers.Yeah and most fantasy games (as if this thread was about games) don't even have a mechanic for getting prayers answered.So if anything the existence of miracles makes it worse because if you can indubitably prove that divine intervention exists but it's tied to a specific rank then no.The gods don't give a fuck. They provably only care about Mr Clericman.Honestly the more I think about this the dumber it gets.Sometime in 2013 everyone's brains just completely broke.
Why do I have the niggling feeling that this post isn't actually about games?
Posting in a bumpfag thread wooo
>>98742167>agnostic/atheisticIt can be fun to play a character who is blatantly wrong. Further, it can be fun to bounce off such a ridiculous cynical idiot.>act directly against the interest of several of the setting's major godsEasily just a part of divine political games. Or am I to assume all of your setting's deities are working together in perfect harmony with no friction or opposition?
>>98742501>The gods are divine because they have a functional bureaucracy
>>98742501he would be right if the gods of your setting are more like superpowered people, ie. the greek gods, who are just as prone to bad judgement as humans are just with earth-shattering consequences every time they have a tantrumin which case, the agnostic is absolutely right to be wary of calling them gods and ascribing them respectand the worshippers are either hopelessly naive or just as cynical, worshipping only out of fear of punishment or hope of reward
>>98742371Reminds me of the Athar from Planescape: "Nobody is denying that the gods are REAL. We're just not convinced that they are deserving our worship, as opposed to just being powerful extraplanars with an ego complex.A Pit fiend or a Solar are both capable of powerful magics beyond the reach of most mortals, but you wouldn't be caught worshiping those, would you?"
>>98742419We're out here, actually playing games, and having fun with shit like >my goblin warlock in this all goblins game is a cult member for an archfey forest king of shadows and despair, and the goblins treat is like "oh yeah that's real religion, not the shit those humans get up to with the fancy windows and white robes. Where's the blood, where's the snapping rat bones, where's the screams?" And that's all a satirical take on how there's really not much of a difference between a warlock's patron and a cleric's god when you get right down to it. One is just higher class, maybe has better PR. That's how you have fun with how poorly thought out these games gods are. And OP, the nogamer, is trying to bait some weird tradcath atheism thing by the sound of it. >>98742424It's not, but it's also not what OP wanted it to be about, which is fun.
>>98742598And of course the Discworld take, where a golem given freedom decides to be an atheist and is promptly struck by lightning. It does nothing to him and he casually says to the air "that's not an argument".
>>98742598>>98742651Which is genuinely the right mindset.
>>98742680It's the ultimate injustice that the gods are the subject of theological debate, but never subjected to it. How can they guard heaven if they haven't tasted hell?
>>98742622>One is just higher class, maybe has better PR.Real
>>98742622>And OP, the nogamer, is trying to bait some weird tradcath atheism thing by the sound of it.There's nothing worse than converts
>>98742695there is presumably a god of philosophy out therebut it would be oxymoronic to his own existence were he to allow uncritical worship of himselfso no one has ever heard of him because his only followers spend their days arguing with the god over the most minute things
>>98742724>so he declared he would descend and take the form of a mortal man in order to better teach his followers>and they said unto him "Define a man."Many chickens were plucked of feathers that day.
>>98742167>create a status quo in a system with moving parts the players can interact with>they immediately consider what would happen if they moved stuff around
Because in a lot of fantasy fiction the gods genuinely don't care enough about people. You are just fuel for their power and organization, or part of some divine calculus where they callously cast aside thousands of lives for any particular reason, and then get jealous or wrathful and strike you, your family, and your friends and children as though they were nothing.Or aside from that, they are powerful and present yet still behave much like in real life where you must have faith and they barely do a thing for you and they don't even really police their own clergy to ensure there's no corruption. Or worst of all, they throw around the whole, "I created you so you deserve to serve me or be destroyed" bullshit.
>>98742773Ops situation poses that the players are not engaging thoughever
Abrahamics always show their asses with this sort of thing and never account for how in many other mythologies there are countless stories of gods and godlike beings being pieces of shit that humans, demigods, or other gods rise up and oppose, or even kill.
>>98742167>live in a fantasy world where the demons are objectively unquestionably real>gain free superpowers just for worshipping them>people still make characters that are basically anti-demon or act directly against the interest of several of the setting's major demonswhy are playoids like this
There's some interesting irony in that the shallow cliche fantasy gods are always a dumber version of the greek pantheon while being aesthetically catholic. Because medieval catholicism was very "everyone worships this god and attends church or else they're set on fire" and ancient greeks were all "just stay the fuck away from the gods. Do no look at them. Don't get their attention. You do not want their attention. Do your best not to have any business with them at all or offend them."
>>98742206>because playing a holier-than-thou devout follower is boringI've had hilariously huge amounts of fun with it.
>>98742926This but unironically. Players should follow SOME kind of deity in your normal fantasy setting, whether it's a holy god of goodness or a demon lord of rape and cannibalism.
>>98742167You don't just get free powers for worship. Clerics or Paladins are special people who feel the call of their Patron Deity. And think about the inverse: people in the forgotten realms or whatever deal with all kinds of crazy powerful wizards and demons and extrapalanar entities. It doesn't make sense to say "gods aren't real" but it makes a shitload of sense to say "those aren't gods, those are just particularly powerful wizards/monsters/whatever, they don't deserve our worship."
>>98742184You people with your victim fetish are the reason religion is dying off in general. Good job.
>>98743013TRVTHNVKE
>>98742206>because playing a holier-than-thou devout follower is boringno its not; in fact, playing a religious zealot on a mission from god is pretty much the only justification/motivation for an "adventurer" that makes sense in your typical fantasy ttrpg campaign
>>98742167isn't the logic kind of flawed , because its both asuming atheism to be correct in the current world but also to have no points whatsoever.
>>98742167The gods are unquestionably, objectively real because you have an objective perspective which gives you unquestionable facts. The people that live in the fantasy world do not.
>>98742983Or neither if you can achieve the same results with other methods. It's almost as if you can choose.These guys keep jumping through hoops as some entity's gopher and still losing to the male human warrior.
>>98742167 I mean flat earthers exist
>>98742167Submitting yourself to a god and grovelling at their feet is the ultimate proof of your own inferiority.The truest expression of real exceptionalism as a mortal is not to behold these grand beings and to kneel, but to strife and toil to surpass them. With strength, wit and merit.
>>98742167We've had this discussion a million times before but you're just farming yous I know.The easiest way to explain this is your agnostic character doesn't say that the gods DON'T exist, he just says they're not worthy of worship. What's the real difference between a level 20 Wizard making extra use of Wish and a God honestly?
>>98742167>>gain free superpowers just for worshipping themYou don't, though. Divine powers are granted by the deities at their choosing, not just for reaching a particular rank in the clergy.
>>98742167>gain free superpowers just for worshipping themIn what game and setting is that even true?
>>98742167>dedicate your life and your behaviour to the creeds and demands of someone else>free????
>>98742184It's not faith if you know the gods factually exist tho.
>>98742167As for D&D, you literally gain powers by disbelieving in objective reality as well.
>>98744080>>98742184This. Faith is putting your thrust into something being factually true even though you have no indication that it is. It's the ultimate I trust you bro.Consequently, if gods are as real as rocks and trees, are part of objective, physical reality, you can not have faith in them. All you can have faith in is that they will personally recognize and reward you, which is at least still highly unlikely considering how they and their favours operate within D&D's universe.Mind that this also puts them on the same level as petty tyrants and psychopaths.
>worshiping an alien psychic parasite who will subsume you after death in exchange for a few party tricksHoly retard.
>>98744109The most powerful force in D&D is whatever makes wheelchairs.
>>98744128For a while, doors also were the true fulcrum of the multiverse, making it perfectly sensible that their City was what represented their power of immovability.
>>98742206>they are gods in the greek sense, powerful but messed up, worship is strictly transactional or even simply due to fearWell, at least SOMEONE ITT understands how polytheism works.Gods do their thing, people pray they'll do the thing for their benefit or go somewhere else. Being too close to divine affairs tends to be detrimental to a mortal's health, property, sanity or physical form.
>>98744207I understand that there are two models of polytheistic worship - the contractual agreement one, where certain acts generate certain results with some certainty and the appeasement one - where you keep throwing shit into a sacrificial fire so that the gods don't become displeased with you.They're - approximately - the Egyptian and the European ones.
>>98742167Who says divine existence is self-evident?
>>98742167>gain free superpowers just for worshipping themIf you had enough wisdom to be a cleric, you would not be saying things this silly.>>98744242The Nordic way was to make sacrifices to the gods, because the custom was that if someone gave you a gift, you'd be compelled to give something back.
>>98742167A half of the Bible is basically a story about God punishing jooz from being disbelievers.
>>98742167If the number of gods you have is greater than 1, then they are no longer omnipotent
>>98743225they do thoughbeitunless your setting is shit
>>98744856and ?
>>98742184it cries out in pain as it strikes
Because a Man chooses, slave.
>>98742167I'm playing a padomayic zealot
>>98742184fpbp
>>98742167>>live in a fantasy world where the gods are objectively unquestionably realthere's no such thing, every instance is equally well explained as powerful entities, to the point the distinction between the words god and wizard becomes meaninglessi'd add the qualifier that this only applies in the fantasy worlds we use... but it doesn't, even if real world god suddenly started giving out clerical superpowers, it still couldn't be meaningfully as a god or non-godthe word god has no meaning in this sense
>>98742167Bro just chop your foreskin off for SharC’mon everyone is doing it
>>98742167Main reason I'd ever do it; the two worst things to come across upon a lonely road are a lion and a god.Don't pull their attention unless you really want it.
>>98742167>why are playoids like thisBecause it's cool to make people like you mad + Indomitable Human Spirit.
I feel like OP doesn't understand that atheism goes further than it being "blatantly true" and is an actual philosophy.most of the anons in this thread would continune to be atheistic way past their life , even if a bunch of aliens come up and explain to us exactly how all our gods are real , for example.I could even see most of this anons being in a comited relationship with a god and that will not change their ways.which is kind of based , but not based enough to cover how cringe they are in other aspects like most atheistic things are.on a more broader note , their are conversations about faith to be had , that I think can talk about this , for some people gods are intuetevly completly true and being an atheist is comparable to being a flat earther , yet you agred with the flat earther they clearly have more of a point.
>>98742167Low intelligence and high neuroticism.
>>98742167Because I can get those Superpowers for myself without any middleman holding my reigns or judging my behaviour just through study and practice as a Wizard.
>>98747147>he thinks just being a wizard on his own will let him be an angel demon thing with floating limbs
>>98742167This you?
>>98747147Aren't wizards still kind of religios in nature.Let me summon wonder fag to help me with this.
>>98747455Yeah. He's right
>>98747501Imagine you're a computer programmer and your cousin won't shut up about how AI is going to mind control you and take over the world. But you, a computer programmer, know that's retarded because the AI is retarded, promoted by retarded tech billionaires who don't know how computers work, and you might use AI as a tool but you also hate it on principle and the most insulting thing is that no one takes you seriously as a threat about to conquer the world. That's wizards.
>>98748155thats part of being a wizard , but another part of being a wizard is secretly having insights over how smart fridges are going to destroy all inocense.I asume that real life wizards would act like real life wizards , outside of the being full of shit part. and they get pretty schizo.
>>98748163it really just comes down to a very simple thing. Wizards aren't religious because they think they're a god themselves.
>>98748170thats just being based.
>>98742167Because potentially killing gods is cool
>>98742167Honestly, I prefer the Anima method of Gods being real but pretty much entirely detached from their religion and worship because they're effectively impossible to communicate with.Miracles happen, blessings are bestowed, but lower levels are so subtle that you can go your whole life not realizing you're blessed or assuming that it's a gift from an entirely fictional deity constructed by the local religion. And you may be hunted down by that religion because they don't have a real way to distinguish between a legit divine blessing and heretical witchcraft.The Gods just chill and bless those whose actions align closest with their divine aspect.
>>98742167I actually make characters who are extremely religious and respectful of authority whenever possible. I mean, if the gods are real and devotion gets you an verifiable afterlife, that's just saving money for college. You would have to be a retard not to do it. I remember the time when the party's Elf rogue fucked Zeus, two PCs got really, really fucking mad because she 'sided with' the asshole gods.
>>98742184I'm an atheist IRL and I'm currently playing a deeply devout Redemption Paladin of Bahamut. My character gave a full sermon to some cultists we captured at one point. Mind you, they used some sort of demonic incantation to kill themselves via immolation but like... The sermon WAS meant to be genuine and a product of his faith, not a mockery of it. Bro even prayed for guidance in his actions even though that's not a mechanical thing in 2024. Didn't get an answer but he did it anyway because that's who he is. He's a devout member of his faith, in a setting where largely worship of Bahamut has fallen off among dragonborn locally due to their city being basically destroyed by Thay.So really, you and OP are both faggots and wrong. Not every PC is going to be agnostic/athiest and not every player who plays a faithful character is going to be religious IRL. Because Players are not their characters, and anyone who thinks they are is missing the point of TTRPGs.>BUT PALADINI played a Monk/Fighter in a previous game who was also an active worshipper. It was the God of Prosperity named Orn-Garadh whose entire thing was valuing hard work and self-improvement, which I felt fit a Monk.>>98742206Depending on the setting, not actively worshipping a deity could mean actually terrible shit for your very-reall in setting immortal soul. You're the exact sort of insufferable faggot OP is strawmanning about, so I guess you're the exception to the rule.
>>98747147>Can't heal the sick and dying>Can't revive the dead>Has to wait until level 7 to force someone to obey them>Can't force someone to tell the truth>A cleric of a deity of magic or knowledge can also steal your shit without having to study a single tomeWizards are just worse clerics who in turn are worse Bards.
>>98750139>not actively worshipping a deity could mean actually terrible shit for your very-reall in setting immortal souldepending on the setting, absolutely nothing can happen to you when you die>You're the exact sort of insufferable faggot OP is strawmanning about,OPs logic does not followjust because god has physical proof does not mean you automatically play a bootlicking godbothererbecause you can equally argue that you know have physical proof that the gods of settings are jackassess and not worthy of veneration
>>98750139>Not every PC is going to be agnostic/athiestNobody claimed this, the problem is just HOW MANY PCs tend to be agnostic/atheist despite it completely going against the logic of most settings. Most playtards tend to make their characters chud atheists or heathens when most settings would go against such an attitude. They don't even have to be a cleric or whatever, even Farmer Joe is going to worship the god of agriculture and fertility, you're telling Me your honourable and chivalrous knight doesn't so much as THINK about praying to the god of battle?
>>98750579So? Most player characters are expectional people anyways, why would the religion part be the dealbreaker for you?
>>98750038what you do when different gods have diametrically opposed positions and/or don't put much weight on 'respect for authority' on itself ?
>>98750579>Most playtards tend to make their characters chud atheists or heathens>Heathens What. Do you even know what that word means or how hard being a heathen is in 99% of all settings with existing gods?I'm starting to think none of this happened.
>>98750634Their exceptionality does not equate them to gods (unless you're playing something like Exalted)
>>98751063exceptional as in, not the norm, anon. Playere characters are by definition not regular people. You are the outsiders, the chosen one, the ones with the grand destiny, from the special backgrounds, with the special belives, the special connections.If everyone else is a follower to the gods, being one of the few who isnt is prime player character material.
>>98750897You don't play games
>you're telling Me your honourable and chivalrous knight doesn't so much as THINK about praying to the god of battle?>he can't comprehend the concept of people who want to achieve things by their own will aloneNot to mention in many fantasy settings gods of war/battle tend to lean toward evil.
>>98750038>I remember the time when the party's Elf rogue fucked Zeusas one should.
>>98750579>>98750139I think in part thier is something to said about how a lot of pcs are atheists but not for a very strong reason , the player characters simply can't roleplay a religios person , its just to alien for them.but while one should not shame them too much , as they just can't do it , this is the type of mentality that evenetually evolves into every fantasy setting being a gaint starbucks shopeit also has interesting artistic and theogical implications , why is religion just so eldrich to them?.
>>98742167“I have known many gods. He who denies them is as blind as he who trusts them too deeply. I seek not beyond death. It may be the blackness averred by the Nemedian skeptics, or Crom’s realm of ice and cloud, or the snowy plains and vaulted halls of the Nordheimer’s Valhalla. I know not, nor do I care. Let me live deep while I live; let me know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate, the hot embrace of white arms, the mad exultation of battle when the blue blades flame and crimson, and I am content. Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.”
>>98752077I want to ask also , how many cyberpunk characters are atually really faithfull and surperstisios.
>>98752135"That's nice, Conan, but we're playing DnD 5E, and page 25 clearly says the gods are real."
>>98752263not the same anon.but hasn't conon literally met gods directly and even fought them/side by side them.
>>98742167>Free superpowers Wrong, retard.>>98750579>your honourable and chivalrous knight doesn't so much as THINK about praying to the god of battle?Again wrong.The existence of divine powers is reserved to super special snowflakes.The fact divine classes exist isn't proof of the god being worthy of worship.It's proof that the gods exist and don't like YOU unless you're a super special snowflake.Spirituality would realistically be wayyyy less because you can directly observe that prayer only works for a few thousand people across the entire setting.
>>98752366>The fact divine classes exist isn't proof of the god being worthy of worship.>It's proof that the gods exist and don't like YOU unless you're a super special snowflake.>Spirituality would realistically be wayyyy less because you can directly observe that prayer only works for a few thousand people across the entire setting.not either of this anons , but isn't the point of classes like the cleric and paladin , to tecnically actually help around and share the gods blessing?I mean how many zoomers for example would be fine for the only magical devine favor in thier life to be a free house , imagine the paladin of house making using a level 5 spell for that or something , that would make people quite spiritual , although maybe not in the same way.
>>98742167>people still make characters that are basically agnostic/atheistic or act directly against the interest of several of the setting's major godsSo Ajax?
>>98742167If gods are really real and the world is still a shithole to live in despite that, that's just even more of a reason to hate them. You're telling me you have these amazing cosmis powers and random villagers still get assaulted and raped by random bandits and goblins/kobolds/gnolls? Yeah you better bet I'm holding the people in charge responsible
>not simply tricking gods into giving you their powers despite not believeing in themngmi
>>98742167The pursuit of power has no limit. I remember one of the really early MMOs had as its later path of progression the concept of raiding the realms of the gods and slaying them and their servants for loot to grow stronger. And yes, this included the ability to go and kill the very gods your character supposedly worships for epic loot.
>>98742167Whether they're real or not doesn't matter. I have moral conviction to uphold the sovereignty of the Individual. No worship. No Gods above me. No Masters above me. The Self Sovereignty the The Divinity of The Individual lasts through any bribe of Heaven and through any threat of Hell.
>>98752686very materialistic non spiritual worldview anon
>>98742167In real life, the question 'if god exists and he's all powerful, why do bad things happen?' is enough to keep millions of people from believing he exists at all.In a world where they assuredly exist, the tone of that question becomes accusatory.Ultimately however, it's all downstream from downgrading the concept of a god into 'basically a really powerful and influential king/emperor', which is what most fantasy settings do
>>98742167Maybe they have a Moral System which is not condensed down to 'Might Makes Right.'
>>98752726The gods in these settings aren't spiritual at all, so it makes sense.
>>98742167How would you know the difference between a god and just the strongest guy on your planet?Cosmere is kind of like this where there was something akin to a god that actually created a universe, but then he was shattered into pieces and mortals can take up those pieces and have god-like powers and grant magic.You can worship them as gods if you want, but you'd be ignorant to the greater universal scope of the situation. At the end of the day these god-like beings can be and are killed. So how much of a god are they really?
>>98752738>>98752750This. If your god has a beginning and can have an end, it's not really a god, it's basically just a Very Very Powerful Dude. The reason the christian god is so popular is because it trascends all those concepts and thoughts
>>98752750>>98752761Even if it was a necessary being, if the Morality is evil, then it is evil. Christian and Muslim Gods being examples of evil gods who are claimed to be the Necessary being.Also, Greeks had the Necessary Being thing before Christians. Neo-Platonic.
>>98752794>Christian and Muslim Gods being examples of evil godsReject the demiurge, accept Gnosticism
>>98752801Gnosticism is just another flavor of learned spiritual helplessness.I accept that I am God , and that there is no Demiurge. That this is my responsibility. That this is my Dream. And I am the one who shapes it.
>>98752818That's great anon. Have you ever discussed this with a medical professional? I'm sure they would be interested to hear
>>98752827Why am I me instead of you?
>>98752828Ask the hospital receptionist that question, they'll point you to someone who can answer it
>>98743064You lack imagination. One of my favourite DnD characters was a tribesman turned wandering cleric of the local god of death. He had a deep personal hatred of the Undead, and was rescued from an angry mob by a priest of that god, hence him taking up the cause. He ended up being a circuit cleric, walking a set route between farming villages and logging camps etc, all the places too small for a proper temple and permenant priest, basically showing up once a season and doing the equivalent of christenings, wedding, and funerals. Being the jaded father figure and (usually ignored) voice of reason to a group of idiot adventurers determined to make every stupid decision possible was great. Even better when we got the classic religious zealot forge cleric later on and we got to contrast styles and views.
>>98742167Leave the Aldmeri Dominion to me.
>>98743064I played an evil princess who was justifiably but secretly cast out of her kingdom by her parents for her terrible crimes and was adventuring to make powerful allies to return to her kingdom and take it back by force
>>98752883
>>98743064Why do religious people always make such incredibly dumb, sweeping, absolutist statements?
>>98743064-5 INT post.
>>98750843Pick one and stick with it, effectively.It's like, there are many Kings. But the only King who is relevant is the King you serve.If the God of the Moon and the God of the Sun are sworn enemies, I worship the one who suits me best and take it as an excuse to slaughter the followers of the other one, who are my enemies too.
>>98752077or maybe playing a religious character is just boring
>>98753340I dunno man. Playing a zealous crusader is always fun.
>>98752818Sounds familiar...
>>98753397Never saw this.
>>98742167Gods can be assholes and undeserving of worship. You have the mindset of a battered wife.
>>98742167>*shows up at your church's doorstep with an army riding on iron chariots*What now, bitch boy?
>>98742184Normies can't fathom the Bible called demons gods with little g.
why does everyone keep pretending to go with the logical argument that "god exists, therefore must worship" when OP laid out that this argument is purely ideologically motivated?
>>98754035The bible is a bunch of jewish nonsense, so that's okay
>>98753340but why is it boring to you anon.why is that
>>98754062Genuinely something I've noticed with a lot of Christians is they have this smug "my dad could beat up your dad" attitude. I don't think they have rationally decided that if there is a God that it makes sense to worship him, it's more like siding with the biggest kid on the playground. They do this fake humble thing where they pretend to be unbothered and above it all, but make sure to tell you that they're going to special good boy afterlife and you're going to nasty no good afterlife because they sucked the Jewish deity's cockThat whole Hell stuff is dumb anyway. If you look at what Jews believed before and at the time of Jesus, they didn't believe in eternal torture. They believed that your reward for giving daddy-god the sloppiest head was an eternal afterlife, with bodily resurrection. The read would quite literally be risen and restored and then live forever (this is also part of why whether Christ had a body when he came back was so important to the early church). If your tummy wasn't full of God cummies you were thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed. Point being you stopped existing.I don't know if it was a deliberate adaptation to try and incentivize atheists and other religions who already did not believe in life after death so did not fear the concept of ceasing to exist (funnily enough the Romans were among these people), or if it was just a natural bastardization over time. But either way, we know with certainty that if modern Christians met Jesus or his earlier followers they'd be shocked how far their beliefs differ.The idea of the snake in Eden being Satan is another bastardization. But there really are too many to detail in this post.
>>98754299can I ask if you live in america anon.
>>98754299It begins to make a lot more sense when you realize that most christians are midwits and losers. It gives them the Speshul Sekrit Club feeling and a crutch for all their failings without them needing to introspect and change into better people, which in turn lets them club other people over the head with their unearned self-superiority. Why do you think it's such a big cornerstone of the faith that this unfathomably powerful cosmic entity will accept you no matter how much of a worthless piece of shit you are otherwise, all for the measly price of stringing a few choice words together? It's the perfect bait for untermenschen to sign up with your psychotic death cult.
PS: It's a known fact most christians have never read their holy book beyond a handful of passages they use for their spiritual masturbations, cope over their shortcomings or lord it over other people. For proof see all the christians insisting up and down that it is "the White man's religion" despite the constant evidence that it's of semitic origin.
aren't dnd gods wierd , they are both more so working though devine archetypes and anyone can take their job , but also they relly on gibs from all the other non gods to exist?
>>98754398>>98754372>>98754299>>98754253>>98754035>>98753521I sometimes wonder if all of these are just samefags.
>christfags have no reply, they just seethe and kvetchHitting close to home, huh?
>>98742167because they aren't cucked goyim>b-but the magic alien said it's a god!and your whore mother tells her clients that she really loves them
>>98754465>>98754466>>98754447>>98754432>>98754398>>98754372>>98754299>>98754253>>98754035>>98753521I sometimes wonder if all of these are samefags.
>>98754480>no argument>no reply>no foreskinVery sad.
>>98750038>he fell for Pascal's wagerHeaven and Earth are not humane.They regard all things as straw dogs.The sage is not humane.He regards all people as straw dogs.
>>98754523>>98754541>>98754466>>98754447>>98754398>>98754372>>98754299>>98754253>>98754035>>98753430I sometimes wonder if all of these are samefags.
>>98754372That does work both ways though. Or I suppose, I'm thinking of conspiracy theories, and they aren't all atheist, in fact a lot of them are christian.Either way though, a lot of conspiracy theorists absolutely get off on the idea that they're smarter than everyone else because they accept whatever bullshit theory they're into. Saves them from having to think too much because they can just be like>NOPE GUBMINT NOT TELLING US STUFF GUIZ, I WON'T SAY WHAT OR PROVE MY OWN BELIEFS, BUT DEY NOT TELLING US STUFF, ME DON'T TRUST EM AND NOT TRUSTING IS INHERENTLY SMART PEOPLE THING SO ME SMARTER DAN UNot that I'm saying people should trust their governments, but it's just as intellectually lazy to doubt everything you hear as it is to accept everything you hear. What I'm getting at is that it's human nature to develop a belief system that you can just refer back to in almost any situation without having to justify your opinions and beliefs on a case by case basis. Everyone wants to feel like they have it all figured out and others do not. The religious will also mix that sentiment with false humility like>hey I'm not saying I know, I'm just asking questions, I'm open-minded (but what I'm really implying is that I believe in the God of the bible and he did it and I'm only pretending not to have all the answers when in fact my answer to everything is God).
>>98754564"Conspiracy theorist" is a term manufactured by the CIA and purposefully seeded into the common lexicon to discredit people who asked too many questions about the myriad oddities surrounding the JFK assassination, so your position started from a really bad place and didn't really improve throughout your post. In short: Facile midwit take.
>>98754601>durrrr actually da CIA invented that term therefore every observation you made about how people behave regardless of what you want to call it is invalidated, me smartThanks for proving my point ig
really , really , really wonder.>>98754253>>98754035>>98753521>>98754564>>98754541I sometimes wonder if all of these are samefags. really , really wonder. >>98754523>>98754466>>98754465
>>98742167>Powerful but distant figure that won't immediately smite you for not liking or supporting their opinions and interests.>Their interests, depending on the figure, can often be weird, irrational, harmful or downright disturbing.>This one requires you to alter your genitals. This one requires you wear bulky clothing everywhere. This one requires you to be emotionless and perfectly precise in every measure of time in your life. And this one just wants you to kill, why aren't you killing?Would you support their interests?
>>98754627God wants you to wear a hathttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfoMiykV-Fw
>>98754564>>98754609If a guy lies to you not once, not twice, but many times over, it's perfectly reasonable to start assuming every word out his mouth is a lie.
>>98754696It's not "a guy" though is it? It's thousands of people across various times in history that have to keep some things secret because telling their own public is exactly the same as telling their enemies
>>98754725How does protecting the identities of child rapists in government, business and media help the people?
>>98754744Who said anything about it was to protect the people? The states priority is to perpetuate itself and maintain its relations with other states.Maybe they have blackmail material on foreign leaders and dumping that info to you eliminates their ability to use it against them, fuck-wit
>>98752818
>>98754548triggered mass-replying niggerfaggot
>>98754915:d
>>98754912Now post the Mage the Awakening version.
>>98754601true and real
>>98742167I can get some pretty epic buffs from a particularly powerful wizard though. So what's the real tangible difference? Power is just power, its not divinity.Gods who are only gods because they're the biggest guy on the block doesnt appeal to me. If anything it makes me want to go Greek on their ass & challenge them, even if it means I die. Especially modern interpretations of divinity where theyre more like spiritual vampires who NEED followers to stay strong.Crom laughs at your gods, & i laugh with him.
OP getting raped and gaped
>>98742167It's called not being a mental slave, I know it's hard for you to conceive of such a thing.
>>98743330>>98744125Based Nagash
>>98742167the problem comes down to most magic systems being gay shit for fags. magic isn't given much in the way of conceptual limitations, you've got whipping fire at people, transmuting elements, and making demiplanes or whatever other faggot shit your tabletop game of choice allows in its magic system to be possible, and then gods are supposed to come off as divine beings despite every miracle they can give also being easily possible with magic. only when you have things that only a god can do, and in doing so create a meaningful division between the mundane and the divine (and magic SHOULD be mundane compared to the latter!), can you actually have a sensible reason for gods to be meaningfully considered something to worship and build a religion around.
>>98756968>religionfags on suicide watch>it's the wizards's fault that people arent worshiping god because they are just too damn good
>>98757066I'll be real with (you) and say that yes, yes it is. specifically, it's the fault of the man who designed the wizard as he is. I don't much care if someone worships or opposes gods in a given setting, but there's not much reason to see differentiation between gods and wizards as things are now, in the vogue of most tabletop settings. this entire thread is testament to that. you can't fix the problem of religions not making much sense in a setting if there's not much sensible reason to be following them in the first place. what's the difference between something that is and isn't a god? if the only answer is power, in the literal senses of the word, then gods do not exist.
>>98757143i will be real with you and say that the fault lies with the americans and their modern ideology.The wizard is the absolute icon of individualism, of the one man army, or the swiss knife character than can do anything by himself and not rely on others and especially higher powers like gods.In a culture that revers this ideal it is obvious that these idead permeate all american creations and western world in general.Oldschool dnd is basically a thinly disguised western in a medieval skin, the most popular genre of it's time.modern dnd is superhero fantasy in a medieval skin, the most popular genre of our time.Everything you see in rpgs are a reflection of who made them and the cultural zeitgeist in which they found success. There are games that treat wizards as either evil, tainted etc but these tend to be either pulp f.e conan based stuff or mythological/heroic f.e. runequest which seem to have more of a fanbase outside the us.If you see european rpgs even when they are doing fantasy heartbreaker they dont carry all the assumption that american games do.Aka americans are either super religious nutjobs that are honestly fake christians that believe in stupid shit that doesnt even qualify as real christianity or objectivist reddit atheists that can't shut up about how much they hate religion due to those very same religious nutjobsSo successful american rpg will never have a healthy balance of power and theme between wizards and clerics
>>98742244He didn't even say he was a Christian and you ridicule him, breh
>>98742167It's hard to take the DND gods seriously when there are people alive today who remember that time Ao turned all of them off because they took his shit.
>>98757143>I'll be real with (you) and say that yes, yes it is. specifically, it's the fault of the man who designed the wizard as he is. I don't much care if someone worships or opposes gods in a given setting, but there's not much reason to see differentiation between gods and wizards as things are now, in the vogue of most tabletop settings.maybe one could argue magic itself is devine and the thing with gods in comparison to wizards is that gods are their own magic , a prenofication of it.so wizards are jesus like , but not entirely.
>>98756633I think some people are just innately servile. They need to serve a master and get very upset at people who don't
>>98742167>>gain free superpowers just for worshipping themA setting of super peasants does sound pretty funny.Being that most people in a polytheistic fantasy setting would at least pay lip service to more than one deity in the pantheon, how does that work?
>>98758976I dunno man, it's not like we have polytheistic societies in history to draw inspiration from.
>>98758822>>98756633not either of this two anons.I am going to be honest , I somewhat understand the argument as to why atheism is freedom intelectually and in theory.but looking at the actual people who tend to belive in that , and being more skeptical about the premises as to why religion is ment to make you a slave.they tend to be masive hypocrites that are basically just hidding their thinly vailed slavery trap themselves.this doesn't entirely erase the intelectual argument separeted from the people who use it , but I am unsure on how this changes it.
>>98759387The only moral way for a conscious viewpoint to exist, is as a sovereign and free God.
>>98742184Fpbp
>>98759387There can be people for whom atheism is religion. But there's also non-religious people who claim to be "spiritual" or believe in simulation theory or aliens or during the Soviet Union the state effectively replaced God.It is very difficult to convince a human mind not to think in some form of rigid ordered way that defers to an idea or framework.
Nogames General
>>98757143the point of religion is to form a legal international "criminal" organization to extort governments out of their shekels so you can chill inna monastery making wine and beer and having autistic debates about theology
>>98750187>Can't heal the sick and dyingWizards can make healing potions just fine. And there are some wizardly healing spells, but mostly in the terms of using necromancy to steal health from someone/thing to heal someone else.>Can't revive the deadThey can. They can make them younger, too, clerics can't do that shit.>Has to wait until level 7 to force someone to obey themWhy would they do that? They get mind control much earlier. Sure, they don't get Command specifically, but that's a cleric's consolation prize for being worse at mind controlling people, and it sucks.>Can't force someone to tell the truthNeither can the cleric, as Zone of Truth allows them to refuse to speak. Wizards can force people to talk, or just read their mind outright.>A cleric of a deity of magic or knowledge can also steal your shit without having to study a single tomeAnd any wizard can steal the entire cleric (in multiple ways!) without having to pray once. Not to mention that gods of magic or knowledge wouldn't give their powers to illiterate chuds anyway, so the cleric nigga still has to read.
