It died too soon.
>>98785115I miss the comicbook.
My regular group just asked me to run a full 1-30 4e game. Fuck, this is gonna be fun.
>>98785115What is it?
>>98785212A steaming pile of shit
>>98785121fell's five is unironically the best thing to come out of 4th edition, and I say that as someone who ran and enjoyed a bunch of tabletop sim 4e over 2020-2023 and now likes the system.
>>987851151. Should have been called Dungeons & Dragons: Express, or Light, or something.2. Core concept could work if they rebalanced it and removed the dependency on Healing Surges.3. The art was a least consistent.4. They didn't have a plan for what they wanted to do with the modules and additional content. 5. They didn't properly announce 4.5 (Essentials) and made it seem like just a bundle of the same rules.6. Wizards had zero faith in the brand by the time of its initial release.
>>98785115Is this where we're at now? Zoomer shitheads who started with 4ed reminiscing about it
>>98785332>ExpressFunny considering it had the most hp bloat and longest fights compared to every other edition
>>98785562To clarify, in 4e your base HP was equal to your classes starting HP plus your ENTIRE Constitution score (not just the modifier) but the damage output was still designed around the old starting HP values meaning you had to whale on basic bitch enemies to drop them and vice versa.
>>98785302Fell's Five is one of the only genuinely great things to come out of D&D since the year 2000.
As someone who's been interested for a while nowHow do I get into ttrpgs like DnD?
>>98785588That just means you start at equivalent to level 4-ish, it skips the rusty-shiv-town phase where PCs have low hp relative to base weapon damage. The long nonlethal fights come from some monsters (1st gen iirc) having boss-monster-like hp. If you pit PCs against PCs it’s actually pretty lethal.
So You Saved Your Daily Powers And Now It's The End Of The Day.
>>98785624You remember how to play dolls/soldiers as a child and then host the extremely ligh-rules TTRPG of your choice for a small group of enthusiastic individuals. IRL, offline.
>>98785661Happened too often. The best solution was better implicit and explicit communication with the DM. Encouraging Daily use and making it more clear which was going to be the last real fight of the session. Honestly, having 4e throw out random encounters really screwed with people's expectations.
>>987855505e is superior to both so 3e fags claiming victory just look silly. Your garbage pathfinder shit also got turned into 4e in the end with pf2e, so who had the last laugh?
>>98785680>>98785661Smart players simply used 1 daily per encounter.
>>98785725
>>98785629Long flights because of HP bloat existed through 100% of 4e and 4.5e runs, anon. It was a major flaw that was never fixed, don't try to pretend it wasn't an issue. It might not be enough of a bad thing to keep you from enjoying the have, but it was definitely there.
>>987855503.5 is the best edition of all time
>>98785917>. It was a major flaw that was never fixedNope. It was only a problem with the first iteration of monsters. By the time the mm3 had come out it was fixed, most fights ended in 1 or 2 rounds. A striker was able to kill 1 monster per round with the correct math.
>Kobold Slinger, level 1 monster>24 HP>average damage of an at will from a ranger at lv 1>1d12+2, twice, +1d6 for hunter's mark, average: 20.5This is an at will. The ranger can kill the kobold in two attacks, sometimes one. Without spending any resources.Assuming an average difficulty fight, there's 1 monster per player. So the fight ends in one round, 2 at most.Monster HP bloat ceased to be a problem.Now lets look at PC HP vs monster damage>Ranger HP 12+ Con score, so average 24>Kobold slinger damage: 1d6+5, average: 8.5>takes average of 3 hits to take the PC to 0HpSo PC HP bloat also isn't a thing either.And PC damage only becomes greater and greater as they get encounter powers, feats, etc, to the point a single striker can just kill an entire encounter on their own once you're level 16.If you're gonna disagree, show math, or shut the fuck up.
>>98785212The only game WotC ever made that was actually good.
>>98786232Finally some real criticism. This retarded talk of HP bloat makes no sense when the greatest roleplaying game in the world is D&D5e.
>>98785115maybe but it spawned enough successors that it had its impact. now wfrp3e on the other hand still needs those
>>987851524e or essentials?
>>98785115The best edition of the game, hands down. I yearn for it to be released to the CC like 5e was (and what WotC promised, those assholes).
I yearn for the union of 4e and 3.5 that 5e failed to be.
>>98786025A d12 is a heavy weapon so you aren't getting double attacks with it.Even if we ignored that, by your own math a ranger isn't doing enough damage to kill one of the weakest monsters in the entire fucking game while utilizing hunter's mark in an average turn.Kobolds rarely appear alone. Let's say you have four of them. With four PCs. Each kobold is going to take two player actions to defeat on average meaning that simple encounter will take 10-12 turns between PCs and monsters. For a very basic combat encounter.
>>98789357You are wrong on every count.
>>987851154E is what convinced the Hasbro/Wizards cartel that gamers are just whiny little piggy consoomers who don't know what they want and shouldn't be listened to. It fixed literally every complaint about DnD that commonly gets brought up. Fighters are boring, someone is stuck being a healing bitch cleric, only levels 3-10 are fun/balanced, etc. And the players HATED it.
>>98785332>1. Should have been called Dungeons & Dragons: Express, or Light, or something.Every time you dipshits bring up some idea like this and it's very wrong.>2. Core concept could work if they rebalanced it and removed the dependency on Healing Surges.Healing surges were one of the key gameplay mechanics, and were genuinely good. Get better at games.>3. The art was a least consistent.Motherfucker I own 2e books I know that's not true.>4. They didn't have a plan for what they wanted to do with the modules and additional content. They had plans. Those plans changed.>5. They didn't properly announce 4.5 (Essentials) and made it seem like just a bundle of the same rules.Because essentials was genuinely intercompatible in a way that 3e/3.5 really wasn't.>6. Wizards had zero faith in the brand by the time of its initial release.This is not just wrong, it's fundamentally backwards. 4e represented a big push for D&D. Genuinely, the reason that wotc looks at it as a failure is because a very high bar was set for 4e, and it did not meet that bar.
>>98789375Nigger, I used your own math.Kobold has 24 HPYour ranger with Hunter's Mark is doing 20 damage on average.So, on average, it takes more than on PC turn to kill a basic ass kobold even utilizing multi-attack with Hunter's Mark.If you got a party of four facing four kobolds all with similar damage output, on average at least two kobolds are making it through unscathed if you focus on putting damage on already hurt enemies. If so that's four player turns, 2 enemy turns, then four player turns again (using the assumption all players won out on initiative versus kobolds). This means, on average, a very basic combat scenario is going to take 10 total turns to resolve at the quickest.Let's compare that to 3e where kobolds have 2-4 HP. If players win initiative, odds are very high those four kobolds are dead each attack meaning combat takes 4 player turns.So, 4 turns on average vs 10-12 turns on average makes combat 2 to 3 times longer on even the most basic level. This was DESIGNED to be slow so enemies can have more chances to act making combat "feel more epic in scope". The result was a game that felt like a mother fucking slog to a lot of players. Combat did have more going on and seemed bigger, I concede that, it also made mundane mook combat, ie most combat designed to deplete resources before a major conflict, take way too much time.
>>98789740>So, 4 turns on average vs 10-12 turns on average makes combat 2 to 3 times longer on even the most basic level. This was DESIGNED to be slow so enemies can have more chances to act making combat "feel more epic in scope". The result was a game that felt like a mother fucking slog to a lot of players. Combat did have more going on and seemed bigger, I concede that, it also made mundane mook combat, ie most combat designed to deplete resources before a major conflict, take way too much time.Don't forget missing everything making shit take even longer. 4e combat was called padded sumo for a reason.
>>98789824It was painfully obvious it was being designed around the VTT system that got destroyed. I am curious though, since VTT are widely available now, how does 4e hold up in that setup?
>>98785332Healing surges were very important since they made it easier to have encounter resources and daily resource separate. You didn't depend on a cleric to top up health between fights so you could do a series of big fights rather than one huge fight or a bunch of smaller ones.I think Starfinder 1e's stamina points are a better implementation though. Especially since bloodied as a status in 4e felt nonsensical.Biggest issues with 4e.1. Bad math with their initial monster manual leading to HP bloat and needing weapon specialization as a patch.2. Statflation from "+ 1 per 2 levels" narrowing the effective levels you could use a monster without having to cludge a minion or elite version.3. Released at the height of "no one likes RPGs" dudebro videogame era so the only videogame adaptations it got were a low budget X-men Legends clone and a dogshit action-rpg MMO filled with microtransactions. Neither of them had anything remotely related to D&D itself other than the title.3. Fucking around with the OGL terms led to creating their biggest competitor.
>>98789740Those aren't weak kobolds, those are relatively strong kobolds. Weak kobolds have 1hp and die to any successful attack.
>>98789884>Statflation from "+ 1 per 2 levels" narrowing the effective levels you could use a monster without having to cludge a minion or elite version.MM2 showed how to upgrade enemies if you wanted to.
>>98789740>Nigger, I used your own math.Not my math.>Let's compare that to 3e where kobolds have 2-4 HP. So, on average, it takes more than on PC turn to kill a basic ass kobold even utilizing multi-attack with Hunter's Mark.3E kobolds are not comparable to 4E kobolds which would be like a CR 1 threat. They're comparable to 4E kobold minions. And also still wrong, it's about 1 and a half turns with an at-will, and 1 turn with an encounter power. Against 4 of them, a Ranger kills 2 or 3 of them in 4 rounds, alone.>odds are very high those four kobolds are dead each attack meaning combat takes 4 player turns.Nope. 15 AC, 14 while flat-footed, in the game where your up front attack bonus is lower, and where the Wizard won't want to spend a spell slot on kobolds.>it also made mundane mook combat, ie most combat designed to deplete resources before a major conflict, take way too much time.I'm pretty sure 4E says not to do this when designing encounters.
>>98789864No, because for it to have a good vtt integration it would require a lot of work to code in monsters, items, modules, etc. But it might be doable now with a motivated AI prompter who did quality control. There are just so many moving parts when it comes to vtt integration.
>>98785332It sucks because it played like a board game and I was kind of one of my favorites because it was more combat Centric and there wasn't all this emphasis on theater of the mind and all this other shit. Now that 3D printing and AI generation is so big though delving into a fixed version of 4th edition is actually possible
>>98789740>it also made mundane mook combat, ie most combat designed to deplete resources before a major conflict, take way too much time.If a combat is completely irrelevant you shouldn't be playing it out in the first place. Just do like 1 dice roll, do a bit of rp, and move on to something more interesting.
>>987857255e is more approvable to new players. 3.5e is better for more granular and crunch builds and numbers. Different games for different audiences
>>98789963Why the fuck would you need an AI to look into it? Most of the fixes are fairly straightforward based on years of some quick and dirty homebrewing>Every character gets a bonus Expertise feat at level 1>Use more minions, reduce HP on Solo and Boss monsters>Increase damage on monster attacks>In Epic Tier fights, enemies get a 1-in-6 chance to recharge their encounter abilities and they can't do two of the exact same basic/At-Will attacks unless specified back to back>Use far more environmental effects and have Boss encounters always have two or more stages, one of which should be dealing with some sort of environmental factor
>>98789357>>98789740>>98789824>A d12 is a heavy weaponWrong. A war axe is one-handed and does d12. >one of the weakest monsters 4e has minions with 1hp. A kobold slinger isn't a minion, it's a serious threat.>Kobolds rarely appear aloneyes, there would be 4 standard monster for an average encounter. So likely 2 slingers, and maybe two kobold quickblades.You forget that 4e had more than one statline for each monster.You don't know a single fucking thing about the game and you're talking shit, which is always the case for anyone criticizing the math in 4e.
>>98789740>post math about someone using an at will>meaning they're not even using encounter powers, action points, daily powers, or any other expendable abilities>anon completely ignores those abilities, compares the equivalent of 3e minions with actual 4e threats and then declares he's right.Every fucking time someone complains about 4e math, they're a retard who doesn't know the system at all. Every time.Stick to complaining about powers, at least there you have some manner of footing.
>>98785550>Edition stanning and shoving it into someone's face.>Defenestration.There's always these people, aren't they?
>>98785917It was an issue with one type of monster (brutes) in encounters made for level ten PCs.
>>98789971Taking away resources is the point of those combats.
>>98791191Very true. At-will damage output was usually enough to end at and lower level standard fights in only 3 or 4 rounds with encounter powers dropping that average by 1 or 2 rounds. The issues only really occurred when DMs threw higher level and larger groups of enemies at parties of 4.>>98791637That was an issue with both the heroic to paragon and paragon to epic transitions. Monsters at 9 to 11 and 19 to 21 could end up tuned for either side of the transition with Brutes ending up with HP scores for the tier above while getting used as bosses/minibosses for the lower tier.
>>98791203>Every fucking time someone complains about 4e math, they're a retard who doesn't know the system at all. Every time.Is 4e the FF8 of dnd?
>>98789884>3. Fucking around with the OGL terms led to creating their biggest competitor.I think that Pozzedo would've still made Ca$hfinder and capitalized on the usual new edition butthurt even ifthe 4e OGL had allowed the massive deluge of sloppa that came out for 3.x. They still would've gotten all the asshurt 3.xirs lining up to suck on Poppa Pozzedo's dick with their promise of fixing all of 3.x's problems while remaining 100% compatible with all existing 3.x material.
>>98793347Paizo by and large only exists because of WotC's entrenched retardation with Dragon Magazine. Truth is, if 4e was in the OGL; Pathfinder would've been a 4e port, as it was it only ever outsold 4e when between the time it was shuttered and D&DNext was announced. Though it probably didn't outsell 3.5 either, as that group split between sticking with 3.5 or going to Pathfinder.
>>98793301The problem with FF8 is that the game implodes if you know anything about it. I discovered how to spam limits on a fucking demo disc that predated the game's release.
>>98793391How are sales weighted against market penetration, by the by? I'm not being snarky, I'm wondering if sales is a good metric in this case; when Pathfinder 1e came out, my group at the time (and like four other groups I knew of) dropped 3.5 for PF1E but we all had so much compatible 3.0/3/5 material that nobody ever bought anything EXCEPT the core book.
>>98789884> 3. Released at the height of "no one likes RPGs" dudebro videogame era so the only videogame adaptations it got were a low budget X-men Legends clone and a dogshit action-rpg MMO filled with microtransactions. Neither of them had anything remotely related to D&D itself other than the title.Honestly this is my biggest complaint about 4e.Despite the amount of complaints saying that it was the "video game edition" there was never a CRPG made with the rules of 4e. There are still people making CRPG of 3e (or 3.4, or pf1e).People keep saying that it's the OGL, but how does that actually affect someone making a 4e based game?
>>98793516Didn't they make that meme Kenshiro Trallalero Trallala before 4e released too? Not that I don't get how anyone can accidentally break FF8, but being breakable is hardly exclusive to it.
>>98793347Paizo only made 3.pf after the GSL basically gave 3rd party publishers the choice of go 4e or go elsewhere. You couldn't publish multiple versions of a product of different systems as long as one of them was 4e. >>98793391>Pathfinder would've been a 4e port, as it was it only ever outsold 4e when between the time it was shuttered and D&DNext was announced.This is the important thing to remember. Paizo and Pathfinder were never actually directly competing with 4e and was basically scavenging the leftovers from 3.X's death. 4e's death was due to Hasbro's execs not being happy with the amount of profit the successful 4e was making. The execs kept firing the head of design until they got the brownnoser who created Essentials (that failed) and then created Next/5e on the cheap with a skeleton crew after the rest of the team was laid off.>>98793616Paizo was always making most of their money on the Adventure Paths which were what was selling Dungeon magazine.
>>98793673That took a ridiculous amount of setup and required Orcus to not use his immediate action to put a stop to it at any point. Not the same as pressing triangle until a limit comes up.
>>98793618Probably Hasbro only wanting the current version of rules being used while owning the rights to 4e rules so not showing any D&D game or other direct clone of 4e to exist.
>>98785115It should never have been born.
>>98793761And was errata'd out in the first set of errata in the game line.
>>98789884>3. Released at the height of "no one likes RPGs" dudebro videogame era so the only videogame adaptations it got were a low budget X-men Legends clone and a dogshit action-rpg MMO filled with microtransactions. Neither of them had anything remotely related to D&D itself other than the title.4e released a year after The Witcher 1 and Oblivion GOTY edition. During its lifetime, there were The Witcher 2, Dragon Age: Origins and II, Fallout III and New Vegas, Mass Effect 1-3. There would have been a market.But it was also the time that Hasbro and Atari SA were litigating over their D&D license contract.
>>98793761Fair enough, I remember it being way more RAW than RAI.
>>98785152>My regular group just asked me to run a full 1-30 4e game. >Fuck, this is gonna be fun."Ok, for the next 3 sessions we're gonna be running a combat against 4 goblins. Oh, what's that, Bumqueesha? You can only play for 8 hours today? Ok well then it might take 4 sessions, let's get started!"
>>98795474
>>98785115It never really lived.
>>98785115It's the only edition that did martials right.
>>98785115>those planned books for ki, shadow, incarnate and elemental power source classesi will never ot be mad
>>98785115It shouldn't have been born.>>98795742Turning martials into spellcasters isn't "doing martials right".
>>98793301A complete broken piece of shit that some "people" pretend is secretly a masterpiece? yeah, that tracks.
>>98796052
>>98796029Spellcaster doesn't mean "has discrete abilities', fag.
>>98796029>Turning martials into spellcasters isn't "doing martials right".Really? It's what martialfags are always asking for. "I should be able to cleave mountains with a single swing at high levels because that's what heroes in stories do!"
>>98796081Basically this. I remember the constant screaming that martials suck and needed to be more like the mighty warriors of tales of old. So then WotC rolls out the Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic and people liked it but still wanted more.
>>98795474>already proven ITT with actual math and rules that 4e combat is actually extremely short >still spouting bullshit
>>98796052>brokenI'm sure you can back that up with evidence based on the actual rules instead of memes, right?
I still play and run D&D 4e even to this day.I run two D&D 4e games across the week. I use the very long and extensively homebrew document of one particular homebrewer, though there is this other homebrewer (erachima) whose content I really like.>>98786268The Monster Manual 3 did not change monsters' hit points, aside from solo hit points being quadrupled rather than quintupled (and even that was more of a Monster Manual 2 change). What the Monster Manual 3 changed was everything else surrounding monster math and monster design.I can go into further detail, if you would like.
>>98797317Please do
>>98797433Monsters did not have their hit points or defenses lowered in any way by Monster Manual 3 math.The Monster Manual 2 already lowered defenses across the metaphorical board (especially for elites and solos, which had overinflated defenses due to "increase elite/solo defenses" guidelines in the Dungeon Master's Guide 1) and lowered the HP multiplier of solos to four, rather than five.What the Monster Manual 3's math did do was substantially increase the damage output of all monsters, and remove the accuracy bonuses and penalties of soldiers and brutes respectively. By doing this, it made all monster roles roughly equal with one another, and allowed combats to be faster and have less overall monster hit points, because the DM could then field less monsters and lower-leveled monsters (which added up to much less total hit points than before) and still meaningfully challenge characters. This was an indirect reduction in hit points and defenses, and it worked very well.In short, monsters are more consistent and hit for a lot more damage in late-cycle 4e. This leads to more predictable (in a good way) combat balance and faster-paced fights.Another important facet is monster design. This one is harder to explain, but essentially, a lot of Monster Manual 1-era monsters are just... poorly designed, especially elites and solos. Plenty are too weak or too strong for their level, and there are way too many unfun stunlock spammers. I am not saying that Monster Manual 3 monsters are absolutely perfect in this regard, but if you compare the statistics blocks in the Monster Manual 1 with those in the Monster Manual 3 (and the Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale), you will find that the latter's enemies are just better-designed overall as tactical set pieces.Then there is encounter and adventure design. A lot of early 4e adventures, including Scales of War and Dungeon Delve, are bogged down with filler combats with spammy, repetitive enemy compositions.
>>98796029That isn't what it does. That was the book of weeaboo fightan magic in 3.5. Powers in 4e are not the same thing as spells with spell slots.And even if you're right, it's infinitely better than how they've been done before or after, and I know for a fact your alternative is either going to be nothing or "lol they get to swing their sword a few times" or some nonsense about maneuvers (which are just powers from 4e repackaged in terms of how they work anyway).
4e gave us the best halflings of any edition
>>98798027Too bad halfings in all d&d media are not cute at all like your image shows.
>>98798191*unlike
>>98785115There were some neat ideas with the psionic stuff although I don't agree with making monks a psionic class
>>98785917Having both played and run exclusively high-difficulty encounters? Fuck no, even fights calculated for 4-5 levels higher than the party will generally take 3~ turns on average long as you use MM3 math.If you're getting bogged downm then the most likely answer isn't HP bloat but lack of teamwork. 4e is hyper teamwork-reliant and HP fucking melts if the PCs are cooperating properly.
>>98799732>4e is hyper teamwork-reliant and HP fucking meltsDoesn't half of the 4e bestiary have just 1hp each anyway?
>>98799786Not sure if it's half of the roster, but 4e does have many monsters with 1HP. They're called minions. You use 4 minions instead of 1 regular monster.It's funny that people that mention HP bloat never mention the minions.If you want a bunch of monsters that die in one hit, they're right there.
>>98796081>Really? It's what martialfags are always asking for.No. That's what caster players ask for. People who are so autistic they cannot imagine someone not wanting to play a spellcaster. They see the fact that not every class is designed like a spellcaster class as a design problem, when the only actual problem was disparity in sheer power.A well done martial class has absolutely no spell-like abilities, nothing that's "X times per day". All his abilities are innate and infinitely spammable. He doesn't need to think, he just kills and that's all he cares about. Thinking is for nerds.
>>98799811>You use 4 minions instead of 1 regular monster.That's equal to having one monster that takes 4 hits to kill. That's too many hits.>It's funny that people that mention HP bloat never mention the minions.Because it doesn't solve the fucking problem.
>>98799841>That's equal to having one monster that takes 4 hits to kill.Anon, an at-will of a fighter is cleave. The main at-will of the ranger does 2 attacks. A basic at-will of a wizard hits 9 squares. One of the monk at-wills hits everyone around him. And so on.Every class has multiple ways of dealing with minions, and the Controller classes specializes in area of effect abilities.Seriously, before talking shit, you should actually learn the basics of the game.
>>98797433The top picture needs to be "they all use their per-encounter powers and then spam their at-will attack until the fight ends 4 hours later".4E has no flavor at all because every class works the exact same way. You just do the encounter powers and then at-wills. It doesn't matter at all how they're described, they're all the same shit.
>>98799867>4 hours later".Already proven ITT that HP bloat is not a thing. Try something else>All powers are the same because they recharge at the same time!Retarded take but at least it takes more effort to disprove.Compare steel serpent's strike, off-hand strike with dazing strike.One deals extra damage and slows, another is a minor action attack, the other deals no extra damage, but dazes the enemy.>you just use all your encounter powerswhy would you use dazing strike when you don't need the enemy to be dazed? It does the same damage as an at-will.Same for controller powers. They don't deal extra damage, so you should be using them at the right time not just spamming them. What's the point of slowing a ranged enemy?
>>98798027>halfling>3/4 human size
I'm seeing a lot of comments about hp bloat and as someone who played a lot of 4e and wrote a lot of 4e adventures, I can say with confidence your DMs were not utilizing their enemy types well. Minions are a godsend. Not every encounter has to be a deadly threat, it just has to burn the party's resources. It can end in 3 rounds. If the PCs spent a daily or some healing surges then you've added tension to the main encounter later. You can use enemies that are lower level than the party. Non-elites, non-brutes die fairly quickly with even a little focus fire. Not every fight has to be to the death. There are so many ways to make 4e battles fast and engaging with the tools provided.
>>98799924>UpdateYou're assuming the people complaining have even played the game in the first place instead of just spouting memes they've heard online.
>>98789740You're comparing 4 players vs 4 challenge rating 1/4 monsters in one edition to 4 players vs 4 challenge rating 1 monsters in another edition you fucking retard.
>>98799918Halflings are half the height of a ling, not half the height of a human.
>>98797550please go on about the flaws in Scales of War, as I'm considering running that for my group soon.
>>98799836That doesn’t even remotely resemble any martial heroes from mythology or traditional fiction.
I don't care what anyone says 4e is my favorite edition. I am my groups forever DM and 4th edition is by far the easiest to plan sessions for. Classes like the warlord were welcome additions to the game and the introduction of Minion enemies allowed for the staging of larger battles that didn't take 5 hours to complete. From an ergonomic perspective 4e is the best designed by far.
>>98797298Predictably, the retard didn't read anything.
>>98800149There was a very large shift in design principles that happened some time in late 2010 which significantly altered monster math, monster design, encounter design, and adventure design.I personally like the Slaying Stone as a generic level 1 adventure. It is serviceable enough for that level, and it uses Monster Manual 3 math and design. (I have seen some people raise issues with this, particularly with one particular skill challenge, so the adventure might not be to your liking.)For something more off-beat at level 1, I would suggest the Feywild-themed Beyond the Crystal Cave from Dragon Magazine #211, which includes a number of unusual situations and noncombat scenarios.For something past level 1, consider Reavers of Harkenwold, which is reasonably well-put-together. (I have seen very few people complain about Reavers of Harkenwold. It seems highly regarded as a starting adventure.)I am also a great fan of two of Daniel Marthaler's adventures, the Gauntlgrym Gambit in Dungeon #193 and That Which Never Sleeps in Dungeon #195, both set in Neverwinter and the low heroic tier. The enemy selection is not particularly inspired, but the encounters in these adventures make splendid use of interesting terrain.The Runecutter's Ruin in Dungeon #186, by Logan Bonner, also has some interesting terrain effects, such as a battle wherein a sealed primordial constantly claws away at the earth, gushing forth flame and geysers.Madness at Gardmore Abbey is a good mid-heroic adventure. It is rather long, as a boxed set, and there are definitely some filler encounters.For all the hate it received, I think that 4e Forgotten Realms did cool things with the setting. Some of the Living Forgotten Realms adventures were fantastic:https://livingforgottenrealms.com/
>>98803613I have great respect for the level 21 to 30, epic-tier adventures for Living Forgotten Realms. They were clearly written with plenty of passion and effort. Past the level 21 adventure (which is a bit of a bumpy start), the encounter design is truly incredible, making the most of the epic tier. They are completely, vastly different from the epic-tier Dungeon Delve and Scales of War adventures.I would suggest looking up the Living Forgotten Realms adventures, which are legally available for free on the official website website. Have a peek at the epic-tier adventures in particular, and compare them to Dungeon Delve and Scales of War.
>>98799841>That's equal to having one monster that takes 4 hits to kill.AoEs and multi-target attacks are dime a dozen even at level 1, anon.
>>987851154e is a good miniature combat game, a terrible roleplaying game. It is the Halloween 2 & the Doom 3 of D&D.
>>98785952That's a weird way to spell BECMI/BX
>>98804486what made third and fifth better roleplaying games?
>>98804503Craft skills, Perform skills, BETTER MAGIC OUT OF COMBAT...Everyone wants to solve problems by casting magic, it's fun.
>This thread
>>98804570>Rolling dice made my game a superior roleplaying game than your game where you just roll dice
>>98804570All of those exist in 4e.
>>98793690I always love this cope. And how 4e threads are in fact about 3.PF because there is nothing interesting to discuss about 4e
>>98804768I agree. 4e must have been unpopular. Otherwise the criticism wouldn't be so wildly inaccurate. Almost all common complaints about 4e is either complete nonsense or a fundamental misunderstanding of the system.As proven by this very thread.You'll kvetch about it but won't ever post factual criticism backed by the rules of the game.Notice how the guy that said the game was "broken" never said anything else? Nor did the guy talking about "hp bloat".
>>98785661Is that a new Isekai airing this season?
>>98791723Then just roll a single die and on a failure have the players lose some resources. Why the fuck would I want to waste my time on trash mobs that only exist to waste my time.
>>98804570>Craft skills, Perform skills, BETTER MAGIC OUT OF COMBAT...Those still exist in 4e, they've just been made into Rituals so they don't take up your combat spell list.
>>98793347You type like you are a terminally online NEET shut-in. Thought you should know.
For actual 4e fans, what is legitimate criticism you have for the system? One of my bigger issues I had to solve after years of running the game back during it's heyday was the feat tax of Expertise feats. A whole feat slot for a scaling +1/2/3 to Attack. A specific "feat bonus" no less, nullifying any other feats that provide feat bonuses to Attack in their value unless they were larger. It eventually came to be that I removed the feat bonus from such feats and simply made it part of the base math as a "tier bonus". Easy fix in hindsight after years of homebrew, but it does stick out in my mind of a genuinely inane bit of the game's history that probably should have been caught before they turned it into a series of 30+ different feats all focused on fixing the basic math of the game's launch.
>>98804838Same as you, about the feat bonuses to attack.Also i feel like the soldier monsters all suck.
>>98804794It would unironically be better than the majority of isekai slop they release every season. Maybe make it a ensemble cast so the thin premise doesn't burn out as quickly.
>>98793347This is kind of correct.>>98793391This is incorrect.In an interview in 2016 with Jason Buhlmahn he mentions how Paizo had already started development on Pathfinder before they had seen a single rule of 4e or knew about its gaming license entirely because they knew they were being dropped from working on adventure paths/dungeon magazine and that they wanted more 3.5 and were pretty sure 4e wasn't going to be 3e Redux.The only universe where Pathfinder never got printed as glorified 3.75 was one where WotC kept Paizo on to keep writing the magazines. And even then it still might because 3rd edition players have brain damage and refuse to leave their precious d20OGL games and would have still cried and pissed and shit themselves over 4e.
>>98804838While inter-class balance is pretty good, the balance inside of a class is not. There are so many class features and powers that absolutely suck peppered around. Basically any class feature that's two stats for the same NAD sucks by default unless it's blatantly overpowered, and then there's crap like Ruthless Ruffian which inexplicably involves 3 stats. Fighters having a conflict between STR and CON is nonsense.
>>98804838Seekers. PHB3 wasn't bad but holy fuck, Seekers were shit.
>>98785115Because they had multiple splatbooks being written in parallel (which increased expenses) released at a breakneck pace. It could have easily lasted another 5 years if it had been rolled out at a pace that didn't require multiple teams working simultaneously. Because splatbooks always sell worse than your core book.
>>98804470Points of light is just a really wonderful way to run a setting regardless of the specific fluff. It really makes players feel different and heroic. One of my favorite parts of 4e.
>>98804822Remind me again how many gp I need to spend in order to make an ILLUSION of a CURTAIN?
>>98805847None? That's probably something doable with Prestidigitation easily. No self respecting DM would even bother with a Ritual for that and just let PCs make an Arcana check to do it if it was short lived enough. Why do you people act like you need clear cut defined rules to do things in the game when just winging it is as viable and less time consuming?
>>987894081. Says everyone on the site is wrong, doesn't explain why everyone's wrong. 2. Yes, they were fundamental to the core of the game, the issue was they became the main balancing tool. Same as 1. above says something's good but doesn't explain why and then insults my ability at playing games. Not sure how that's even relevant but okay, 3. 2e? As in AD&D 2nd Edition? What has that got to do with the consistency of the artwork in 4th Edition?4. I'm not really sure what this statement is even supposed to be saying. You're basically telling me the sky is blue. 5. It kinda wasn't actually and 3rd Edition and 3.5 Edition were just as interchangeable. 6. Actually in an interview Mike Mearls did online a few years back now after his NDA's were up he laid out pretty clearly what the thought process was at WotC throughout and after 4th Edition’s production. You're just telling me it didn't meet a "high bar" but then failed to link anything to prove your point other than I dunno fucking retard vibes? Nothing you've said makes any real sense and to be honest your whole reply reads as some fat american 20 something getting butthurt. The game sucked, it was unplayable, and it led to WotC completely moving away from the brand, downsizing the team and stop micromanaging the brand. Which lead to the actually good 5.0.
>>98804838My biggest one is the rulebooks themselves were oddly written. Its not so much they were poorly written, just formatted in an odd way, with a strange order, and described in an almost moon logical way from time to time. It made explaining things to new players difficult for no reason.
>>98805980I have to say I never experienced this myself, but I have heard it a complaint before.
>>98805970>You're just telling me it didn't meet a "high bar" but then failed to link anything to prove your point other than I dunno fucking retard vibes? He doesn't need to. How Hasbro handles properties is public knowledge, and what Hasbro's expectations for D&D were and the reason 4E was greenlit were gone over by people with inside knowledge well before Mike Mearls opened his dumbass mouth.
>level up 4 times over the course of many sessions>most exciting thing was an extra d6 to your spammable blast spellThey had a whole thing devoted to poison rogues where thw most dangerous thing was >if you have them wear this ring for 12 hours you can stunning them for one roundSome dnd autist is going to show me how much its changed since then but the whole edition was made for the gaming crowd and they were vocal about that.
>>98806031>He doesn't need to prove anything.>How Hasbro operated was apparently public knowledge in 2008. >Creator of 5th Ed says this was what was going at the time = he's dumb.The thing is you've not disagreed with me or really supported "his" theory. I say "his" because you're clearly the same person. Just give it up kid you’re wrong.
>>98785725Go watch Critical Role you faggot!
>>98806823>How Hasbro operated was apparently public knowledge in 2008. Yes.
>>987998594th edition haters will spend nearly 2 decades talking shit about a game but never ACTUALLY play it.
>>988059701: "oh but if the name was different-" you still would have bitched. 2. I'm saying that healing surges are good and that removing them is fucking retarded.3. You're really stupid and can't pick up on implications - I have seen what 2nd edition art looked like. Acting like art consistency is something D&D has been good at is revisionism.4. You said they had no plans, they did. If you'd been around at the time, you'd know that. For example, why is the monk psionic despite not behaving like any of the other psionic classes? Because it was originally designed for a power source that never actually got developed due to a number of reasons (one of which was cultural sensitivity)5. It was completely interchangeable, I know because basically every table I was at did that. As for 3 and 3.5, they really weren't. Your character would clunk along, but they never really clicked together.6. >MearlsExcept here's the problem dude. Mearls wasn't in charge. Mearls was brought into development of 4th edition towards the end (May 2006 when development stopped in September 2006.) So a lot of what he says about the design process should be taken with a generous amount of salt because he wasn't really there. When he showed up, the core systems were built.
>>98807693> (one of which was cultural sensitivity)Which is just implacable cope on WotC's part. Essentia was right fucking there waiting to be worked into the Ki paradigm and they were too retarded to see it.Ki honestly should have had different systems for each of its Classes really. There's dozens of ways to fluff the 'I use energy powers sourced from my own essence/breathing/spirit/etc.'
>>98806169>level up 4 times over the course of many sessions>>most exciting thing was an extra d6 to your spammable blast spell????Every level gives you either new powers or new feats.There are zero dead leavels in 4e.You are severely confused.
>>98785115>W*yne r*ynolds "art">TTRPG MMORPGNah senpai
>>98804838I echo the sentiment of >>98805310. Have a look at the various 4e class optimization guides over at ENWorld and compare the red-rated powers to the gold-rated powers.For example, compare the warlord's Vengeance is Mine or Powerful Warning, both level 1 encounter attack powers:https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power10901https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power10893To the warlord's Coordinated Offensive, Leaf on the Wind, Myrmidon Formation, or Nimble Footwork, all level 1 encounter attack powers:https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power10119https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power1554https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power2443https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power4544Compare the warlord's Hail of Steel, level 17 encounter attack power:https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power1559To the warlord's Deadly Inspiration, also a level 17 encounter attack power:https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power4586Compare the invoker's Thunder of Judgment, level 1 encounter attack power:https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power2853To the invoker's Angelic Harrier, likewise a level 1 encounter attack power:https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power11280Compare the invoker's Silent Malediction, level 1 daily attack power:https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power7161To the invoker's Cast the First Stone, a level 9 (yes, 9, a whole 8 levels later) daily attack power:https://iws.mx/dnd/?view=power11295However, I would argue that the inter-class balance is not that good, either. Compare the ranger (hunter) or the warlock (binder) as a controller to an invoker or a wizard, for example. Before level 7, compare a battlemind as a defender to a fighter, a paladin, or a warden. There are some stark differences here.Beyond this, I find that a major shortcoming of 4e's combat metagame is that alpha striking is simply too effective. Optimize for the party's initiative (e.g. Combat Commander paragon feat), accuracy (e.g. War Chanter action point), or both, then have the party simply delete enemies right during the first round. It have seen this happen very often.
>>98808278>TTRPG MMORPGIm sure you can back that assertion with evidence right?Hint: mmos have dps, tank healers.DnD4e has strikers, controllers, defenders, and leaders so that angle won't work.
>>98808435Something something "hot bar and cooldowns"But if you just tack on three to 20 additional paragraphs to a power/ability it's fine apparently.
>>98808499Its 100% the optics and people being dumb fucks.>encounter powerVideo gamey bullshit!>once per short restOMG so flavorful!They're literally the same fucking thing.
>>98808536TBF, a short rest in 4e was 5 minutes while in 5e it's 1 hour. Why? Because fuck you, that's why.
>>98804493That's a gay way to spell AD&D2E.
>>98785115It tried to make D&D into WoW and made roleplaying almost pointless. It deserved it's fate.
Something I wish was carried over to 5e was Prestige Paths/epic destinies. 4e you get to pick cool new things relatively regularly whether its new powers, feats, or the big stuff at level 10 and 20 that you had things to look forward to. In 5e it feels like after level 3 you're basically done with what your character is going to be.
>>98808636>t tried to make D&D into WoW and made roleplaying almost pointlessIm sure you can back that assertion with evidence right?Hint: mmos have dps, tank healers.DnD4e has strikers, controllers, defenders, and leaders so that angle won't work.
>>98809776Leaked documentation confirms 4e was intended to ape an MMO mechanically. This is a settled issue.
>>98805915It's always been a bad faith argument because "non-combat mechanics" in D&D have always no matter the edition amounted to you either having a good DM who would look at your relevant powers and make you actually role-play the situation out, or you having a bad DM who begrudgingly has you roll a speech check/athletics check/knowledge check for anything you do because he doesn't want to do anything but railroad you through his script.
>>98809782What rules copy an mmo?Go ahead, I'm sure you have rules proof.>but they saidok, and what rules specifically they created that are copying an MMO?
>>98809782>>98810099>search this up>it's actually mearls talking shit after he already was on 5e, and he just says "influenced">search more>no one actually says that it was intended to copy or ape the mechanics at all, in any quote or any document, best you can find is "intended to be welcoming to mmo players" but nothing about mechanicsEvery fucking time someone talks shit about D&D4e it's always based on memes and lies. Every single fucking time.
>>98808559Because muh realism. You shouldn't be allowed to heal that fast without magic.
I think the thing about 4E is that it's a good system because it got rid of some of the complexity of Third Edition and made it so creating NPC monsters and dungeons was streamlined and easy, where they had a built-in roll like controller or Soldier or Brute that let you easily figure out what his place I was supposed to be, versus now where even the Solar Angel falls victim to ruling shenanigans
>>98808406I ignore Essentials classes entirely, pre-Essentials it's the Seeker and Assassin that are absolute dog ass and the Assassin wasn't really finished so counting it is questionable. 1 legitimately bad class out of a pile, that's a much higher hit rate than other editions of the game.
>>98804838Some powers are just lackingLook at shit like the monk's level 7 encounter power: Fist of One Hundered Strikeswith a name like that, you'd think it's awesome right?nope, it's so shit other level 1 encounter powers are better.
>>98810933Tbh the Seeker feasibly could have been fixed if we had ever gotten a Primal Power 2. The Paladin kind of sucked until Divine Power brought it to stand next to the Fighter. Unfortunately the Seeker got one Dragon article that gave it like one power per level and while some of those were nice, they weren't enough to uplift it.I might be coping though because Arcane Archer is my favorite archetype and Seeker, while kind of ass, is by far the best representation of an Arcane Archer that any edition of D&D has ever done.
>>98808278>muh MMO This argument is old enough to suck dick on OnlyFans.
>>987856241. Buy Index Card RPG or TinyD6, not D&D. Read it from cover to cover.2. Read the following articles on the Angry GM's blog: "Defining Your Game", "How to Talk to Players: The Art of Narration", "Adjudicate Actions Like a Motherf$&%ing Boss!", and "Help! My Players are Talking to Things!"3. Read this whole series on the Angry GM's blog: "How to Run An Angry Open-World Game, Lesson Three: Presenting An Explorable World of Adventure (Part 1)"4. Watch the video "Trap Theory" by Runehammer.5. Read "Apocalypse World" and "The Monsters Know What They Are Doing" for additional knowledge.6. "Godbound" and "Maze Rats" are both free and have great advice as well as awesome random tables.7. Get yourself "Hex Flower Cookbook - an overview and some thoughts on Hex Flower Game Engines by Goblin's Henchman" to make your own, awesome random tables with a memory!8. You can now play! Organize a game over on Roll20 or IRL, I'm sure you know how to make friends IRL, right?You're welcome?
>>98804838Well one thing that annoyed me was that powers weren't in their own chapter. I think it would have been better if I had been able to read the classes in order without all the powers being interrupting things.Also, I think Powers should have been called Techniques and Power Sources should have been called Themes. (But what would OG 4E themes have been called then? Extra Archetypes?)
>>98811680>I think it would have been better if I had been able to read the classes in order without all the powers being interrupting things.That was mostly due to the powers being in theory bespoke rather than shared. The original PHB release locked classes to specific power sources and powers to classes. This created a lot of overlap that those that didn't like the game complained about.>Also, I think Powers should have been called Techniques and Power Sources should have been called Themes. (But what would OG 4E themes have been called then? Extra Archetypes?)Martial Powers were Exploits, Arcane Powers were Spells, Divine Powers were Prayers, Psionic Powers were Disciplines.In theory each Power Source was supposed to have a gimmick. For example, Martial powers were supposed to be Reliable (i.e. only expended when successfully used) but it mostly ended up being fluff.
>>98785332>2. Core concept could work if they rebalanced it and removed the dependency on Healing Surges.You could literally make at-will healing in 3e with a handful of cash.
>>98793618I remember an anon saying the closest thing to a 4e videogame is fucking Super Robot Wars.
>>98810099Ummm ummm ummmmmmm shield bash?
>>98812386You're not totally wrong, but it is still wrong. I think the closest thing to a 4e video game would be Cosmic Star Heroine which one of my friends swears by but I've yet to give it a shot.
>>98794213Ive read that you cant copyright the rules of a game?But I have no idea how true that is. So it could be possible to just make the game regardless.But well the law supports corporations more than small people. Something legally it might be fine, but financially it might be ruining.Is there actually a demand for this? It feels like no one seems to actually care about 4e outside of these threads, it's either 3e or 5e for dnd now
>>98814649Correct, you cannot copyright rules, only presentation and mechanics. An example would be, say, Monopoly - legally you could make a board, have dice, have spaces people can take control of and improve using resources granted by landing on or passing a specific spot on the board or from other players if they land on spaces you control or they give you to take control of one of your spaces, and you move a token by determining some sort of random number, etc etc. All of that would be legal! What you could NOT do is call it Monopoly with the Hasbro IP board design, token design, and the like. Make your board round, use a spinner rather than dice, and have the tokens be little brightly colored space aliens and they can't really go and sue you.Someone could make a 4e clone, but they would need to rename and reinterpret everything, and would need to do a lot of work presenting the game in a radically different fashion to avoid any possible IP infringement. It's why it is easier to not do it or, in some cases, merely be "inspired by" 4e, drawing on some of the work but then adding your own stuff to it. That's how we got games like Lancer, 13th Age, Gubat Banwa, Strike!, and Shadow of the Demon Lord / Weird Wizard.
>>98812386Closest thing I've played were the Divinity: Original Sin games, Conclave (which was directly inspired by 4E), and Guild Wars 1. I have no idea why people point at WoW instead of GW1, that game shares way more with 4E.
>>98804838Oh yeah, also, no combat/noncombat divide between the U part of AEDU. 4E has a lot of excellent noncombat abilities tucked away as Utility powers, but they're competing directly with excellent combat abilities that are also Utility powers. Should have had an equal number of noncombat only utility powers instead.
>>98811680I know it would have been expensive from a printing side, but if each of the classes had a separate little splat book kind of like GW arcane journals it would have helped a lot. God I hate I just said to copy GW.
>>98793347>Ca$hfinder>not KKKa$hfiê‘d€rYour MSE needs work
>>TTRPG MMORPG>t. never played it>>98807582I say this and look like this
>>98808278>>98815629Forgot my quote
>>98808435>uhm ACKSHUALLY if you call the DPS a STRIKER instead it doesn't count ha ha check mateTruly stellar logic.
>>98816045Where do you think DPS came from?
>>98808636Ironic, considering one of the things /tg/ has always hated about 5e IS the roleplaying. Hell, the OSR crowd hates it so much that they've convinced themselves that the "role" in "roleplaying" specifically means the "role" you play in combat/dungeon crawling and having nothing to do with characterization of the PC you've created.
>>98816045Ok, where is the controller in WoW?The leader is completely different than the healer too.From the very start, it's 4 Roles while MMOs have their "Trinity".Now, that that this she has been debunked again, what's the next poor attempt at an argument?I'm sure one day people complaining about 4e will manage to make a complain that is rooted in fact instead of just memes.Doesn't seem like it's gonna be ITT however.
>>98804838I honestly think there are too many classes, and a lot of them are really strange in concept, like there was a mandate to have close to one of each role for each power source, even if that resulted in really weird class concepts.Then they made a vampire class, which I actually think is an awesome idea (although it was pretty bad IIRC), and I would have loved if they would have done the same for werewolves and even for certain monster races.
>>98809776>calling something a different name completely changes the role and purpose of itSure bud.
>>98816484>/tg/ hating somethingMany such cases.
>>98819698>(although it was pretty bad IIRC)Vampire was dogshit solo, but really strong when multiclassing. Which is honestly kinda in theme, even if unintended.
>>98819754See>>98817459
>>98816484OSR games are typically quite light on rules because mechanically heavy games strangle the roleplaying.The shitty roleplaying associated with 5e is nothing to do with the rules, it's the playerbase. You're either fully aware of your false equivalency or just ignorant (stoopid).We don't hate roleplaying, we hate melodrama and soap-boxing. I don't want to spend large parts of the session having a tea party or doing improv theatre, especially not if I'm being held hostage by a backstory sperg.
>>98810933Rune Priest is also pretty shit, but it suffers from the same problem as Seeker >>98811138 pointed out, it never got a power book.
>>98819873>the player baseLiterally a consequence of bad gatekeeping. Same as the perception of OSR being joyless grogs who spend more time arguing over what's faithful than silently crunching numbers and moving figures at the table.
>>98819947Not my problem
>>98819698I personally don't mind the idea of each power source, doing something similar with my homebrew heartbreaker. It's more that each power source wasn't really able to be distinct in how it approached each of its classes. Barbarian and Warden have distinct flavor from one another despite both being primal classes, but it's mechanically executed in a similar fashion through daily powers, diluting it a bit off paper.
>>98785115If I wanted to play World of Warcraft, I would boot up the old shit box and play
>>98820340>World of Warcraft made third party splats for 3e and 3.5>Never made splats for 4e>World of Warcraft is making first party splats for 5.5e4e keeps on winning
Everyone who says 4e plays like WoW has neither played WoW or 4e. The closest MMO would be the Ankama ones like Wakfu or Dofus. Even the actual MMO that ran during 4e and used its naming conventions played nothing like the actual tabletop game.
>>98820340>World of WarcraftAlready debunked ITT kid, try again
>>98819761I fondly remember my triple vampire werewolf character.
>>98820698Expect people who play tabletop RPGs to have their own opinions? No they're a bunch of YouTuber shills who believe what some social media Tard told them to believe. It's so predictable you can almost point out which specific creator that they are referencing. It was just like with the obsession movie dialogue how you could tell how many different people were just parroting what big youtubers were saying
4e is only hated because it took away the power of 3.5e players to gatekeep the hobby. Same reason why AD&D grogs hated 3.5e, incidentally.
>>98821406So the problem was the players themselves and not the game? Do other board games have these kinds of issues? Like does Yahtzee or Uno or Monopoly go have issues with their older Generations trying to gate keep
>>98821406>>98821465Less gatekeep, more not being the audience being catered to.
>>98821465It's a control thing. Every edition of D&D has its glaring faults, but the standard hatred of 4e comes from 3.5e players who couldn't make the new kids play the way they want to play.
>>98821101It is funny how seeing how many layers you can get, even if its not entirely viable. Like 5 layers of undeath with Revenant with Vryloka as your past life, vampire class, vampire feat chain and then archlich as your epic destiny. Or using Revenant and Primal classes to take Reincarnate Champion to be four races at once so you can add in more layers of werewolf or robot or anything else goofy.
i thought people disliked 4e because it totally did away with vancian casting and a lot of content from 3e
>>98822358It was a whole variety of problems. Personally I think one of the major reasons was it released right in the middle of the Great Recession, and the books were more expensive and missing some things people just plain expect from D&D core books (certain classes and races mostly), and because they were not only pushing the new AEDU system and miniatures gaming from the get go (and the failed promise of their VTT) resulted in backlash, at which point people started spinning grand tales of it "not being an RPG," "it is just WoW," and more took hold.
>>98821406>>98821465>>98822358>>98822405WotC made some very cringe (I literally mean cringe as the lead up was full of cringe humor) decisions in the lead up to 4e's release. The ad campaign was actively insulting to players. The GSL turned 2nd and 3rd party publishers against 4e. Taking Dragon and Dungeon from Paizo and turning them into web site subscriptions created a lot of bad blood.
>>98820698I never got a 4E feeling from Wakfu or Dofus. I was pretty disappointed when I got pointed towards them by someone who said they were like 4E, honestly.
>>98826161Whats even more stupid about that is the rule book, forget if its the player book or gm book, specifically says here is only a bit of rules for out of combat stuff because thats the GMs job. These books are only for the combat, the story and role playing can be as detailed or intricate as you want.
>>98826188Anon, that is how 1e and 2e worked for the most part.3e has always been the exception.
>>98826317Oh agreed. I'd say 5th does it too, but not to the degree 3rd did. It's just people being stupid.
>>988263605e pretends, but it isn't as restrictive as 3.5.
>>98826188Looking at the PHB1, there are multiple pages talking about how to roleplay, anon. Starts on page 18 and looks to end on about page 25 before it gets into how dice rolls work in the game for attacks, skills, etc. Covers things like mannerisms, personality, how to interpret the alignments, how the gods and how you worship them can influence things, etc.
>>98804570>Craft skills, Perform skillsPresent in 4e>MAGIC OUT OF COMBAT>Everyone wants to solve problems by casting magicIs better in 4e, everyone actually gets to cast more easily
>>98804951Shinchou Yuusha leans into that, dude gets livid if he was forced to spend even 10% of his MP to kill a major enemy.>>98804838Tieflings were kinda lame IMO. Also how lackluster playing a Runepriest felt, with how involved I had to get to try and play it "optimally" (read "as good as my scrub self can"), it didn't do much. A pity, the class was awesome, one of my favorite characters flavor-wise (losing only to my duergar warlock).
>>98826823Yeah exactly, 7 pages explaining the raw basics. I would say that qualifies as >only a bit of rules for out of combat stuff
>>98827234And how many pages does any other edition dedicate to "here are ideas and details on how to flesh out your character"?
>>98827234>>98827504There is more flavor details within Race and Class entries, and the whole glut of 4e ezine content is available online at this point with even more such flavor. It wasn't that 4e didn't have details for creating backstory and roleplay opportunities. It's not even that it didn't try and give advice for how to go about doing such things. It's that it didn't make specific system rules around such things.
