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>>98817809
>regular people need to be lead and protected by special strongmen to keep them safe
Horseshoe theory.jpg

>>98817809
>need to be
I don't think that is a fair read of any world of darkness line.

>>98817809
>All of their settings are about how regular people need to be lead and protected by special strongmen to keep them safe
No.
Genuinely, if this is your take on WoD, you're a fucking idiot.
Every single supernatural fucker, EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. is a net negative for humanity.

Before you say it, yes, that DOES include the imbued.

>>98817839
Between the Mummies, Garou, and Mages all actively being enormously powerful compared to humans and actively needed to protect them, it pretty much is.

>>98817850
>needed to protect them
From what? The other supernatural creatures trying to control humanity?

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>>98817845
>Every single supernatural fucker, EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. is a net negative for humanity.
The Werewolves are the only reason Humanity hasn't been eaten by the Wyrm yet

The Mages are needed to protect humanity from several threats and are basically the only humans of consequence who can actually achieve anything of significance

The Imbued are basically a net negative for humanity because they attack Mages

>>98817855
>From what?
The Wyrm and the Antediluvians
>inb4 "but those are supernatural too"
Nobody claims the vampires are good for humanity, they're one of the few exceptions, but you still need the other supernaturals to handle them, and getting rid of the Garou wouldn't help humanity at all in the fight against the Wyrm

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>>Outspokenly progressive company
WW has not been a "progessive" company since the original writers left and the counter culture indie company got turned into a demoralizing psy op operation that tells you to be a cog of the system is actually a good thing.

>>98817845
It's not really the Imbued's fault. The Messengers deliberately fucked them up, and they wouldn't exist in the first place if the other supernaturals weren't out there fucking things up so badly.

>>98817855
>From what? The other supernatural creatures trying to control humanity?

I think so, but also themselves. I mean, the Garou did that whole Impergium thing and inflicted a genetic level generational trauma on humans that causes the Delirium. Even needing humans to continue to exist as a species for reproduction, there's a faction of Garou who want to Impergium II or just drive humanity to extinction (possibly including cleansing the Garou of all homids). And then there's the actual stuff, like Banes, that probably only exist because the Garou fucked up at their literal one job and did the War of Rage and drove the Fera into extinction, near extinction, or dangerously weeaboo populations who've decided baka gaijin need to die and Asians are maybe worth taking care of so long as they don't bring shamearu to their ancestorsaru.

The Technocracy (who are themselves not all roses and sunshine) is protecting humans from the Traditions, who would literally have us go back to a consensus where nothing works. And the Trads are the least belligerent and malicious faction of Mages towards humans. And that's not considering the weird shit from outer space that that fringe elements of the Technocracy are fending off.

I don't know how mummies want to fuck humans up, but I'll wager they do or they have a faction that do.

>>98817899
Pentex is love; Pentex is life.

>>98817894
If there's no Vampires at all then there's not Antediluvians, though.

And without Garou fucking things up, going out of their lane, and failing at their literal one job, the Wyrm doesn't get fucked up and continues to perform its literal one job as intended.

>>98817913
Again, nobody is arguing the existence of vampires is good. You still need the other supernaturals to handle vampires though. You can't just wish the vampires didn't exist.

And according to the lore the only fuckup the Garou ever made was ironically allowing humanity to grow and prosper. The lore justifies the Impergium as necessary and good.

>>98817914
I admit right now I'm more retarded than usual and I don't know why.

The war of rage was a huge fuck up, probably even bigger than the Impergium. The Impergium I doubt was necessary or good, and even if it was on paper, the Garou executed it retardedly, like they do every single fucking thing they do.

>>98817850
>Garou
>good for humanity

>>98817862
Everything you've said is wrong.

>>98817903
>It's not really the Imbued's fault. The Messengers deliberately fucked them up, and they wouldn't exist in the first place if the other supernaturals weren't out there fucking things up so badly.
Correct. The Messengers showing up and going "CONGRATULATIONS YOU GET TO BE A HUMAN AUTOIMMUNE RESPONSE" is bad.
The imbued are dangerous to everyone around them and the sole positive about them is that they're more dangerous to other supernatural things than they are to other humans.

>>98817951
>Get rid of Garou
>The Wyrm destroys everything
>Humanity dies

>>98817914
>You still need the other supernaturals to handle vampires though
All you need is a flamethrower and a thermal camera

>>98817958
It wont because if anything the weaver is winning and gaia is dead anyway so they've already fucked it up completely

>>98817958
>technocracy finally gets off the shitter to do something for once

>>98817962
And an entire Sept of Garou, three Chinese vampire demigods, two nukes and an orbital sun-laser. Its pretty funny how power creep and other setting elements made OP objectively correct about oWoD.

>>98817958
You still have the other two parts of the triat there, anon.

>>98817907
Modern WW is too garbage to be Pentex. WW and Paradox are worse than Pentex: they're nothing.

>>98817969
Didn't they spank Ravnos to death in India?

>>98817914
>vampires is good.
Actually, I do. The existence of vampires or any other supernatural being immediately elevates reality because it means that something out of the ordinary actually exists out there. Such a simple thing is obviously lost on argumentative midwits which is the normal population of today's /tg/.

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>>98817979
That's what mages are for.

>>98817979
>this is your brain on Blindsight

>>98817974
The Wyld is weakened and the Weaver is crazy

>>98817914
>And according to the lore the only fuckup the Garou ever made was ironically allowing humanity to grow and prosper. The lore justifies the Impergium as necessary and good.

Wrong.
Humanity was acting within their nature. Humans want to solve problems, it's what they do. Humanity was presented with problems that challenged their survival, and humans began to solve those problems, as is their nature. But because those solutions included things like "hey we can use this dead fur as clothing" and "why fight a bear for a cave when we can build our own cave?" and "turns out if you bury the wheat that doesn't leave the stem, next year you'll have more wheat on the stem", your local murder machines get pissy about it and decide to start doing genocide.

You know what the consequence of this was? The weaver looked at these poor tool making apes, who were only following their nature, and being murdered for it and said "oh come here, you're my special boys now" A thing that probably wouldn't have happened if, you know, the genocides weren't happening.

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>>98817899
>WW has not been a "progessive" company

>>98818001
You have cause and effect backwards, humanity had made a pact with the Weaver before the Impergium, it was a major factor in the Impergium happening in the first place.

>>98817973
>Chinese vampire demigods
I love the Kuei-jin so much.

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>>98817958

>>98818105
What a worthless world that would be

Everyone's talking about World of Darkness but this also applies very strongly to Exalted.

I think you're pretty stupid to say that a company believes in the strong man theory because the nature of a game is a power fantasy of being a strong man to bring change to society
There wouldn't be a game if a fantasy of power didn't exist

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>>98818140
The difference is that in all of White Wolf's settings, the powerful people are needed for humanity just to continue existing. You can make any game where powerful people exist, but White Wolf goes out of its way to say "Not only do these powerful people exist, but we absolutely need thing and things would be much worse without them."

Aren't most of their settings about how ascending away from the setting is the best for an individual?

>>98818159
I mean, for mages, sure

>>98818146
So does Dragon Ball
It's a writing convention, not a political stance

>>98817903
>The Technocracy (who are themselves not all roses and sunshine) is protecting humans from the Traditions, who would literally have us go back to a consensus where nothing works. And the Trads are the least belligerent and malicious faction of Mages towards humans
Both the Technocracy and the Traditions actually want the same thing, vaguely: the Ascension of all of humanity to a nebulously-understood higher state. They just have completely opposite approaches to it; Traditions see it more as an individual journey, Technocrats want to Ascend all of humanity together.

Of course, the pettiness and greed of individuals on either side can get in the way of that.

>>98818403
The Technocracy is suppressing human ascension if anything, most of their mages don't even know they're mages

>>98818418
Probably but they think that they can manipulate Consensus into Ascending everybody all at once, if only they stamp out all those pesky, dangerous Reality Deviants first,

>>98818418
In theory, all the abilities of a god would become attainable by mundane means as scientific rotes normalized into the consensus

>>98818231
The people involved in WW, then and now, explicitly include things to be political stances (even shit like who's on the cover of the first edition of Exalted was a political stance) so often that it's very difficult to think it was just a writing convention.

Vampires drinking blood and werewolves turning into wolves are writing conventions, and WW consciously turned both of those things into political stances.

>>98818403
Sure, I don't particularly think a Trad's going to give a fuck if they can Ascend and you or I don't, or even if they can Ascend but at the expense of you or I Ascending. A Trad's going to think "fuck dem timmys, I's Ascendin an sheeit."

On the Technocrat side, the average Techno's probably not going to care on a personal level and maybe you or I not Ascending but the entire rest of humanity doing so would be acceptable, but the goal for the Technocracy is that we're all gonna make it bro.

The most unrealistic thing about WoD is that there is not a faction for all kinds of supernatural that shun the petty squabbles of their peers and unite against the bigger threats of the setting. At least the vampire have the excuse of being cursed to kill eachother to make Caine sad or something

>>98818521
unrealistic? do we even have something like that in real life?

>>98817845
Leave my hallucinating crusader woobies alone.

>>98818536
Are there cosmic threats to all reality in real life?

But sure, even with the war some russians and ukrainians still get along. All the fera hating eachother to near complete isolation is kinda dumb

>>98818536
NTA but international approval bodies for medicines would be a good approximation.
A north Korean and an American doctor might hate each other but they can rely on the same lexicon of medications to tell them how to keep their patients safe.
Ditto space debris tracking databases.
One of the reasons why India's reputation deteriorated so much and so fast is that they randomly shot down a satellite a few years ago in contravention of norms even mortal enemies adhered to and everyone decided to stop playing softball with their behavior on the PR level.

>>98818521
Nobody really knows the full extent of what the other splats are fighting besides maybe the top Technocrats. Some random vamp who thinks the Camarilla is bullshit has never heard the terms "Wyrm bane" or "Nephandus."

That said there is a poorly-defined faction of people that really fucking hate Set (who is probably a Wyrm worshiper) and support Mummies, but since Mummies haven't gotten anything since like 2004 and V5 had Set's clan rebrand as the Ministry, that thread is kind of hard to implement.

>>98818536
It's called the ISS.

>>98818551
>>98818536
Climate change cooperation is pretty close.

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Why do we get a constant itinerary of ideological meltdowns

>>98818562
because sofar those are not politically contentious as even pharmaceutical companies lobby for stricter regulations because it raises the expense of drug testing thus making it harder for new competitors to enter the market
in WoD lore, all the factions have legitimate historical grievances against each other, including genocides
>>98818551
And does that form something that can be called a "faction"? Going by your analogy something like that already exists then, like a sept in chicago that moderately tolerates gangrel vampires due to circumstances.

>>98817978
That was a team effort and he maybe did not die, given his blood is still around in liquid form, but that also might just be antedeluvian blood being way better.

>>98818551
Cosmic threats really only appear in ToJ (and even the only thing in common might be a giant asteroid. none of the other splats even show up in armageddon scenarios when they would have considerable influence in the outcome.), besides Grandmaw or Threat Null, none of the other splats even notice each other's problems, or they simply don't exist because the entire setting wasn't built around forcing cross-splat lore. There is some cooperation but only if the groups absolutely don't hate each other, like Dreamspeakers with Garou taking down a Pentex subsidiary that might also have ties to the Technocracy.

>>98818640
>because the entire setting wasn't built around forcing cross-splat lore
I wish that was correct but it's unfortunately not.

>>98818584
>>98818640
>Nobody really knows the full extent of what the other splats are fighting
That's the thing I find unlikely. How we don't have a single werewolf doomsday prophet trying his hardest to convince mages to care about the wyrm "WAKE UP SHEEPLE" style?
How come they never have a conversation like this
>Dude, let me tell about these guys: the Technocracy and the fucking Nephandi
>Bro, that's literally the Weaver and the Wyrm
And then a changeling shows up
>WTF those things literally kill me by existing?!

>>98818599
>And does that form something that can be called a "faction"?
No but my point is that people are pretty capable of putting aside differences in the real world, I think it would be easy when the forces of entropy are fucking around.

>>98818797
>How we don't have a single werewolf doomsday prophet trying his hardest to convince mages to care about the wyrm
Because outside of dreamspeakers, most paradigms find the idea that celestine+ level spirits which represent the mage's metaphysical trinity being consequential players in the world as laughable.The mages clearly do not detect any imbalance in the world as their magic works fine. Nephrandi are not the imbalance of entropy, but rather are that way because their avatars are inverted, and only 1/3rd of them are wyrm-related with the rest having to do with demons and eldritch gods. For mages, their problems with the technocracy has nothing to do with stasis but because the technocrats are literally sending cyborg assassins after them and want to remove their beliefs from the world. Mages and Garou already tend to distrust each other because they fight over nodes/caerns, and the garou see mages as the incarnation of everything wrong with the weaver.

>No but my point is that people are pretty capable of putting aside differences in the real world
The examples you've given have to do with minutiae and not the broader strokes of politics. It's been pointed out that small scale cooperation or tolerance happens, as a major silver fang king did date a dreamspeaker mage before they awakened. But garou are not going to en masse defy their tribes to work with mages just for the sake of it, and mages are too busy either fighting for the ascension of all humanity or going on insular seekings to discover themselves or something than be concerned with the lowly matters of shifters. If you want to run a game that way, its completely up to the storyteller to allow improbable events to let players build their multi-splat alliance, but its not the default of this setting.
>>98818790
The books literally say that you are free to ignore cross-splat lore

>>98818586
>>98818592
Haven't both been plagued by politics with the ISS being deorbited soon? And the post was asking about supernaturals ignoring their original factions, both the ISS and UN climate policies were started on a national level.

>>98818839
>All that
Sure. I didn't say anything about en masse defection of anything. I still think it makes more sense for there to be at least a single actual faction, not just a bit of cooperation, of a bunch of supernaturals that actually believe helping eachother's cause would benefit them too. I mean, we have McDonald's selling evil spirits on their food to turn people into monsters? I would think that would probably make even some people on both the Technocracy and Traditions pay attention to what the fleabags are saying

>>98818008
Only americans found anything wrong with this book. If anything it treats them far too positively.

>>98818514
>it's very difficult to think
Not really

>Y White Wolf Writing stupid?
Because the writers are a combination of proud, stupid, and extremely resistant to criticism.

Anything cool they ever wrote was by accident.

In a pre SJW world was White Wolf ever good? I've always had an interest in their stuff but there doesn't seem to be an appetite for older stuff so its hard to tell.

>>98819327
Its wild and different. But its focus is always on presentation and on appearing smart, over being fun to play.

All these discussions you read are all about high concept questions the games ask, never about ways your character got to meaningfully interact with them.

You can discuss whether or not the Technocracy is good for society, or if the path of Bronze or Gold is superior.

But the basic gamplay is ass, and in terms of basic focus and expectations during play, you are to curl up into a ball and go
>"Boo Hoo, woeth for I am cursed-eth"
Or
>"Boo hoo, woeth, for society is evil, and I am helpless to do anything about it"

If most RPGs are empowerment fantasies, White Wolf games are drama kid navel gazing tragedy fantasies.

Even if you go out of your way to ignore the rules and try to let the PCs engage with the higher level stuff, there are basically no rules to do it (or to make it fun or easy), so just use a different system and different setting.

>>98817914
>The lore justifies the Impergium as necessary and good.
You're a regular comedian.

>>98818797
A Pan-Supernatural faction has the issue that there will be a pecking order between splats and DaveB will pit Meges at the top. So nobody wants to deal with it.

>>98819354
Oh fuck. You again!

>>98819354
DnD mongrel really gets assblasted just at the existence of other games that are not DnD.

>>98817809
I still don’t understand the logic behind effectively banning the Get from play but having the Red Talons stick around. You can’t even use the neo Nazi excuse thing because even in the old lore it was explicitly stated that the Get violently purged their ranks of the naziwolves once they realized just how fucked they had become


Meanwhile, eating people was considered a mainstream opinion in the red talons

>>98820208
The logic is that the head honcho of nu-wta is a new Swede.

>>98820208
They probably should have gone too but I guess they wanted the tribe for wolf-borns to stick around as an option. It is at least a more interesting thing to roleplay than "the angriest, most self-important ones" that were the Get.

>>98820552
Didn't they also hire a native american as a consultant only to fire him because he thought getting rid of the fan favorite viking werewolves was a stupid decision?

>>98820785
They also took away the cultural heritage of the Native American tribes for some reason.

>>98818954
mage has a bunch of evil cults blowing up stuff. wraith has evil cults blowing up stuff. changeling has cults commiting mindrape. one pentex subsidiary is just a drop in the ocean in the amount of shit they have to deal with on a daily basis, and not enough to convince either of them that the wyrm is a major threat.

>>98820785
I never expected to empathize with a consultant.

>>98820742
>they wanted the tribe for wolf-borns to stick around as an option.
lol lmao
as of w5, the RT are no longer a lupus only tribe

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>>98820208
>>98820839
Oh that's easily explained.
Wokoids have always been a sect of fundamentalist postwar Anglo protestantism so they believe that thinking about evil makes it stronger in the world, making iconoclasm of the highest order the only way to be sure.

>>98817809
yeah they're horror games for a reason

>>98820977
>as of w5, the RT are no longer a lupus only tribe

wat

are there male black furies now too

>>98823089
Mage and Exalted aren’t

>>98823104
That would be a step too far

>>98823121
They absolutely are.

>>98820785
Every now and then the chugs remind me they're alright. When even the grievance merchant says "take it down a notch" and your response is "no" you may have gone too far.

>>98821009
That's actually really funny. The only reason people even remember who the Nazis were instead of the Soviets is that they bring them up constantly.

>>98817958
Sorry, furfaggot. I dont believe in your pagan garbage. I am a proud Noddist. Bleh...

I just like playing the monster hunters and so far WoD is the only setting that has scratched that itch for me.

>>98823104
yes and the black furies had their entire history scrubbed squeaky clean so they are now the never did anything wrong political activists tribe

>>98823300
It's not often enough that we wouldn't've been better off if our white ancestors had 'sealed the deal' if you know what I mean.

>>98823104
Yes, and they thinks troons are real women too.

>>98817899
This reads like propaganda. Which book was this again?

BRING BACK THE FUCKING IMBUED!

MAKE HUNTER GREAT AGAIN!

>>98817862
Werewolves are at best playing catch-up for the sins of their ancient ancestors, staving off the nigh-inevitable apocalypse that you started isn't a positive for humanity.
Tradition mages are also a gaggle of arrogant fuck-tards who got nepo-babied by their Avatars into pursuing a supposed ascension quest, as often as not at the expense of the sleepers and never with their consent. At least the Technocracy makes a point of trying to uplift humanity with their manipulation of consensus, you just don't get to play them because they aren't representative of the misguided, selfish villainy inherent to a tradition mage.
The Imbued are a net negative for humanity because they disrupt delicate systems stymying the various OTHER monster groups from having a disastrous "unforseen consequences" spiral. The appearance of a bunch of them ALWAYS signals a transition of the setting from merely being a dour scenario into being an active end-times scenario because they are CAUSING IT with their MYOPIC "HEROICS".
I would accuse you of being a bot with your inaccurate summary of a setting you clearly only have a surface level understanding of, but being accused of being a brain-dead automaton with room temperature WRONG opinions would give you too much credit.

>>98828142
>you just don't get to play them because they aren't representative of the misguided,
you do, though. in fact the authors engage in mild technocratic apologism and retconning to make them less evil.

>>98828035
W20, same page as a screed about Pentex.

>>98817862
youre a faggot

>>98818514
>the goal for the Technocracy is that we're all gonna make it bro.
damn, the technocracy are the closest thing in oWOD to FRENS, tradition mages are the cancer killing reality.
>>98818032
>humanity had made a pact with the Weaver before the Impergium
SAYS THE WEREWOLVES WHO SKULLFUCKED HUMANS SOULS SO HARD THEY CANNOT SEE OR INTERACT WITH SPIRITS OUTSIDE OF RARE OUTLIERS.
>>98818000
>The Wyld is weakened and the Weaver is crazy
its the werewolves fault.

>>98828445
In the same way the Technocracy ostensibly wants to make everyone ascend but are focused on controlling the Consensus first, the Traditions also want everyone to be able to ascend on their own individual terms but tend to let pride and political bickering get in the way of that.

>>98828606
There are clearly no parallels between communism and capitalism to be seen here. None.

>>98828722
Only insofar as ANY political apparatus can be corrupted by greed and pride.

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>>98823121
Mage is real life horror.

>>98828722
really the traditions effectively being anti-materialist and both believing in subjective value kind of puts a stopper in that

>>98828776
Value is pretty subjective when the things most sleepers value is quite literally a technocrat psy-op

>>98828788
that would mean that in this universe the labor theory of value is metaphysically wrong no? which neither faction really embodies.

>>98828794
I suppose Collectivism vs Individualism would be a more apt comparison than Communism vs Capitalism then

>>98828844
Given the traditions seem to want to ensure they're on top it's more like a weird style of feudalism or dictatorship.

>>98828142
Blaming the Imbued for the end of days is giving them too much power.

Werewolf was The Apocalypse before anyone even conceived of the Imbued, and is still the Apocalypse now that there's no Imbued around anymore.

I found the entire thing about fascism in the v5 rulebook to be really out of place given what vampires are and what the power structures are in place for the camellia.
Like you can't decry fascism as something to be avoided or demonized at all costs when the game, as it was when v5 came out, ONLY let you play in that framework.
There was no escape from the worlds most bullshit pyramid scheme both in lore and in rules.
Just felt like they slapped on some preachy shit without reading the rest of the book because man being on the bottom of the totem pole is all the reason players need to hate the establishment, they don't need a tone deaf soapbox at the very end of the rulebook.

>>98829185
>There was no escape from the worlds most bullshit pyramid scheme both in lore and in rules.
Sure there is. Greet the sunrise.

>>98829317
kill yourself session 1 lmao doesn't make for much of a campaign even if it is beastmode.

>>98829185
Im sure this is actually super important anon, but its getting late and im beginning to worry that you haven't taken your meds.