>>98840055
I find more loved ones.

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>>98840055
The last one never lived long enough to grapple with that shit but odds are they would see the same as having a pet with a short lifespan.

>>98840060
Either that or get immortal ones.

>>98840055
>>Thread Question:
>How does your Exalt grapple with having mortal loved ones and the knowledge they'll be outlived by your character?
He takes solace in the thought that his loved ones will never had to endure or even imagine a world without his glory.

>>98840199
I like a bit of both. An immortal soulmate and a mortal family and legacy to watch over from the shadows.

>>98840199
>odds are they would see the same as having a pet with a short lifespan.
Hi Nolan.

>>98840250
oh, high mark.

As someone who outlived two siblings and a cousin before I was 20, you mourn them but you also cherish every moment you shared. They're two sides of the same coin.

My Solar will have to learn how to cope with that realization when he gets there, that he’s going to have to bury his children unless a Wyld Hunt gets him first I mean.

Also. Has anyone heard anything about the ST Manuscript for Exalted Essence or knows where to find the pdf?

>>98840055
>TQ
Now, more seriously (I made this post earlier, just for the record >>98840216) most actual PCs aren't old enough to have actually had to find a way to cope with living far, far longer than most of their loved ones. There's obviously no RL reference point for immortals dealing with that stuff, but I'd think that, for a time, it doesn't really matter. I mean, loved ones dying matters, of course, but you love who you love, cherish the time you have with them, mourn when they die, move on eventually but without ever forgetting them. I think memories of those first loved ones would stick with most Exalts even through millennia of life. As time passes, I'd expect forming deep emotional bonds with new generations of mortals to get more and more difficult, though.

>>98841199
sorry man

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>>98841505
https://www.mediafire.com/file/avd0weocedfm4ab/ExEss+STG+Draft+Preview+(1).pdf/file
I don't remember if I shared the whole thing but here it's all of it compiled.

>>98841516
>I'd expect forming deep emotional bonds with new generations of mortals to get more and more difficult, though.
There are plenty of charms for that, including dealing with their loss one way or the other.

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>>98841720
Thank you friend

>Reading through 3e core
>Come across Searing Sunfire Interdiction
>"An Essence 3/4/5/6/6 repurchase..."
>E5 repurchase implies Solars physically cannot knock foes off roofs without it
>E6 repurchase indicates you're not allowed to use the gambit repeatedly against a single target without it; also lmao what happened to E5 being the cap for Charm powerlevels?
Every time. Every time you think you know every bit of jank in core, it surprises you with something new. This is literally just Keys but worse, specifically because Solars are NOT assumed to have Keys by default implying that other Solar Charms can't be repurchased at higher Essence for upgrades unless otherwise specified. All the while the setup nickles and dimes you for some, not all but some, effects that feel like stunts.

>>98842409
>Keys by default implying that other Solar Charms can't be repurchased at higher Essence for upgrades unless otherwise specified.
Isn't this handled by "charms that permanently upgrade other charms?"

>>98842498
Very inconsistently, the issue is more Holdenmorke seem to have written Charms as a one and done deal with really nitpicky limitations instead of just assuming you can keep upgrading everything forever since there is (nominally) a Charm powerlevel cap at E5 (despite some Charms being upgradeable past that, the indecisive bastards)

Side note, I find it really funny whenever there's a Charm that specifically lets you hit a guy while he's prone because the Exalted are too honourable to kick a man while he's down or something. Apparently doing cheap shots in Creation is a high level technique.

>>98842577
What are you talking about? There is nothing about being prone that prevents you from getting hit. There are Charms that give something extra when the opponent is down, but that's obviiusly different.

>>98842627
>There are Charms that give something extra when the opponent is down,
Some of them are worded like "you can use this Charm against a prone opponent" which sounds weird because it implies you normally can't. Not use twice. Not use at a discount. Just use at all.

>>98842630
Which Charms are you thinking about?

>>98842577
>the issue is more Holdenmorke seem to have written Charms as a one and done deal with really nitpicky limitations instead of just assuming you can keep upgrading everything forever since there is (nominally) a Charm powerlevel cap at E5 (despite some Charms being upgradeable past that, the indecisive bastards)
3e was meant to be future proofed, so charms are "done".
Supernal put trees in a holistic approach.
And they were cheeky and sneaked a way for solars to get more charms (evocations that only exist to upgrade solar charms)

>>98842640
Huh, I thought there were more but off the top of my head I can only find Fools Laid Low from the 3e Infernals preview. Says it lets the Charm be used against prone opponents and nothing else, is that getting errata'd? Am I misreading what it does?

>>98842683
>evocations that only exist to upgrade solar charms
To be fair, lorewise there's no reason why evocations can't do that for everyone. Even though it leads to the concerning conclusion that Evocations are potentially better investments for upgrading your existing Charmset than actually learning new fucking Charms one by one, since Arms set the precedent of one Evocation upgrading like 3 Charms simultaneously. At E1.

>>98838010
>>98838258
>>98838398
>>98839512
Now for a 3e specific question, I guess picking Resistance as a Supernal isn't a good idea then?

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the solars were jerks

>>98842883
>Even though it leads to the concerning conclusion that Evocations are potentially better investments for upgrading your existing Charmset than actually learning new fucking Charms one by one
This is also the warstrider dilemma, both evocations and warstriders don't mix well with the titular exalted.

>>98843394
It is good with brawl.

>>98840055
>How does your Exalt grapple with having mortal loved ones and the knowledge they'll be outlived by your character?
They either don't know, make immortal lovers, detach from mortal concerns (code for 'become self-absorbed'), or plan to live fast and die young.

>>98842409
Repurchases are just charm buys with less word count.

>>98843394
In 3e it's at it's best. It's alright. It's worst against nova/oneshot and best against 'standard' fights where people try to build initiative through withering and move on to mediocre decisive attacks. If you buy Uncanny Shroud Defense from Occult it's even good, that counters oneshots and has great synergy with Battle Fury Focus and Wound-Knitting Exercise.

>>98843414
it was the power of the swag.
it corrupted them.

>>98843479
>This is also the warstrider dilemma, both evocations and warstriders don't mix well with the titular exalted.
I can't help but noootice that the writers have been avoiding mention of warstriders at all ever since Arms of the Chosen.

>>98843394
Supernal? Forget about it unless you also go Brawl like >>98843479 said, Solars are at their most glass cannon-y this edition.

Resistance? Abyssals are overall tougher and Abyssal Resistance comes with more Charms to help you actually fight back (which is mostly what you want to do in combat). They are slower than Solars, and they compensate for it by being tougher; it's also really cheap to make yourself not need sustenance indefinitely which is both an argument for and against Apocalyptic when further buys at higher Essence can also let Abyssals not need sleep or breath.

And as with most things, Infernals have the best Resistance Charms in the game. For one thing, you can start with a retarded amount of Soak and Hardness by stacking Scar-Writ Saga Shields. Combine it with a mutation like maxed out Unusual Hide feat. Carapace, and you can mog heavy artifact armor while naked. There's some other neat shit like being technically unkillable as long as you pay 1 mote at the start of every turn and manifesting horrifying mutations to negate crippling effects by turning into The Thing, and none of it matters. What matters is that it has the ONLY perfect defence in the ENTIRE game that can TANK falling damage. And also a Key (repurchase) that canturn its base effects into super armor as long as the Infernal keeps fighting hard and doesn't get crashed.

>>98843751
Yeah, the issue is really more implicit than explicit in the sense that Charms are written so specifically it gives the impression Charms in their current state are supposed to be mostly representative of what Charms of similar Essence can do.

>>98843756
>Uncanny Shroud Defense
That does look pretty good with Resistance, although I can't think of many situations for Solars in combat where you're likely to be in a position to retaliate well right after eating a oneshot-level attack in time before you get hit a second time hard enough to keel over

>>98844321
Being hit with a oneshot in 3e means they've turned off their decisive attacks until they can get more initiative. As a Resistance character you should have a shitload of Soak, it's not particularly hard to stack up. With enough Hardness you aren't being multiattacked for lethal on turn one either ('enough' is a bit questionable though). Battle Fury Focus/Bloodthirsty Sword-Dancer Spirit reduce/remove wound penalties so that you aren't fighting at a disadvantage after you've been forced to Uncanny Shroud Defense. Wound-Knitting Exercise heals a health level to reset Uncanny Shroud Defense every (7 - Stamina) rounds which will hopefully be every two rounds. When it lines up nicely you'll pop USD and then have it available again at the top of the next round, when it's not so nice then you pop USD to defend against a decisive attack, take a bunch of withering on the next round so they can reset, then USD resets in time to catch the next decisive attack. It's somewhat countered by Peony Blossom Attack or anything that goes withering into decisive multiattacks but those are rare and often hard to use. Obviously you still need a popping Defense score to avoid getting farmed but I mean come on everybody needs that.

>>98844321
They've spent all their motes and you've spent like six. They've dropped all their initiative and you haven't. Find a way to remove wound penalties and you're good, there are options in sorcery/medicine/resistance/merits. Find a way to get HLs reliably in combat and you can do it again.

>>98844419
>>98844433
>It's somewhat countered by...decisive multiattacks
Yeah I was basically thinking about that, but fair enough. Doesn't really come up unless you're fighting Ligier, and if you're fighting Ligier you have bigger problems anyway.

Does make it funny that Occult (or maybe Craft with that stupid Dual Magnus Prana) technically has the best synergy with Resistance as a light dip, though.

>>98844436
>decisive multiattacks
I mean, Hardness exists. That said you're fucked if it's something like the preview Centipede Style multi that ignored Hardness.

>>98844453
See that's the thing, with the Solar combat suite specifically the nicest thing you can really say about Hardness is just that it exists. It's an option. It's better than nothing. But there is also a reason why I've seen a lot more talk about Dodge, Stealth and generally options about NOT GETTING HIT in the first place than facetaking against any combat scenario more nuanced than a Death Ray to the face.

>>98844508
Oh it's useless against everything else for sure, but multiattacks are the one thing it does something against. Basically all multis in 3e make five attacks and make you split initiative evenly between the attacks, so once Hardness gets over ~6-7 you're probably safe turn one if that's all they're doing.

>>98842883
>Huh, I thought there were more but off the top of my head I can only find Fools Laid Low from the 3e Infernals preview. Says it lets the Charm be used against prone opponents and nothing else, is that getting errata'd? Am I misreading what it does?
Fools Laid Low upgrades a Charm that has specific conditions for its use. Normally you can only use Argument From the Peak when you either jump down to reach an enemy or against enemies who are at least one range band below you, but with Fools Laid Low you can also use it without moving against enemies who are already at close range as long as those enemies are prone.

>>98844574
Oh, that makes more sense, thanks.

Even though it's even funnier once I stop to think about how falling on top of someone is unironically a high level Infernal supernatural technique. It's not even like a downward stomp or football kick as written, all things being equal the Infernal apparently just flops on you while screaming about how Creation's gods are fake and gay. And it hits HARD! Auto success!

>>98844316
Tell me about playing a Resistance Apocalyptic Abyssal.

>>98844683
I'm assuming you're familiar with 3e Solars since everyone who discusses 3e here seems to do so in the context of Solars.

The first of two big gimmicks is that in exchange for having fewer ways to build Initiative and move fast, Abyssals have more ways to deny Initiative and facetank anything. Deathless Vigor Renewal lets you turn Decisive damage into an excuse to roll EVERY HL you have and get one Int for 2 successes. Once a day, beating you up up literally just makes you stronger. Corpse Needs Nothing is also a permanent and extremely cheap way to never need sustenance; a Resistance 3 repurchase means the Abyssal doesn't need sleep either, and a Resistance 4 E2 repurchase means they don't have to breathe. Death Twice Denied lets you soak unsoakable damage with base Stamina, Agony-Savoring Spirit lets you fuel yourself with motes and willpower when getting hit with decisives. Flesh like Marble flat out makes you immune to environmental hazards with Damage 4 or less; it also raises your Hardness if unarmored which doesn't matter for reasons to be discussed later. Thousand Agonies Endured lets you halve Withering damage, takes away a max of Stamina/2 Initiative at E3, and gives you it at E4. Unyielding Leaden Aegis lets you flat out reduce your own Int lost from an attack by the higher of Essence or 3, scaling with heavy armor. Wounds Mean Nothing lets you IMMEDIATELY heal at least 1 level of damage from decisive attacks (but must be declared before an attack roll) and heals ALL damage from environmental hazards, traps and similar things; it explicitly heals uncountable damage, making the Abyssal immune for a scene if necessary, and IIRC is flat out the best Charm at dealing with stuff like this.

The trend continues with the Essence ranks. You do need higher Essence investment than Infernals for inferior raw soak/hardness, but you're way more resistant to danger that isn't just getting hit. World-Denying Invincibility is your AoIM.

>>98844683
The second is that every Abyssal Ability is a combat option, except the actual combat abilities which also have side gigs as social options.

Early on in Resistance, Iron Tomb Imprisonment (Res 3, E1), lets you LARP as the Lion by nailing any armor you wear to yourself. It's explicitly unremovable, including its attunement. Getting out hurts enough to inflict a -1 penalty but isn't relevant for combat, and in any case Wraith-Forged Plate lets you skip that.

Chain-And-Armor Mortification coupled with Wraith-Forged Plate lets you conjure artifact chains with 12 DMG, OVW 4 and Bashing, Brawl, Disarming, Flexible, Grappling and Reaching. They offer free minor bonuses to grappling, penalise attempts to disengage, and a Res 5 repurchase lets them hit out to MEDIUM range. Did I mention Vault of Unying Triumphs, the Abyssal perfect soak, seems to assume you're wearing armor? It uses your armor's soak for its base effect, which you obviously need to be wearing armor to have. You WANT to LARP as the Lion with Resistance.

Death-Drinking Rapacity lets you heal a max (Stamina) dice of health levels to to heal from damage you do, Iron Labyrinth of Suffering lets you multi-grapple anyone in close range OR your chains' range, and Merciful Guillotine Method lets you hit people grappled with your chains with a guillotine made of chains (???) that does NOT reset Initiative if it kills. Other Abyssal Charmsets like picking on the weak and wounded, this is no exception. The climax of combative Abyssal Res is Iron Maiden's Kiss which lets you inflict the Lion's agony on foes by effectively grappling them with a diff 6 gambit and forcing them to take (Essence) lethal damage until they get out with a minimum diff 7 roll. If you kill someone with this, they return as a war ghost mindbroken to serve you and bound to the iron maiden. Which is of limited utility but hey, free guest fighter.

TLDR, Abyssal Resistance is actually half of the Abyssal Brawl charmset.

>>98844683
Oh, almost forgot. Two more things: Wraith-Forged Plate is your Abyssal-type Essence armor (forged from Essence and nightmares into void-black plate, because of course it is). It lets you steal an Initiative whenever your Soak reduces a withering attack to min damage or your Hardness negates a decisive attack, if this crashes an opponent they lose a wp, and notably it's available at E2 but lasts one scene-becoming indefinite at E3. It's less flashy than Glorious Solar Plate, but plays better into the Abyssal strat of being the rock of ages that just lets foes crash against them and be broken (assuming the Abyssal doesn't eat a hit big enough to send them into crash, which 3e being 3e, is kind of an unavoidable risk with this kind of playstyle. Really want to be using those Resistance multi-grapples if you're not fighting a duel).

And the last thing is that Cadaverous Torpor Technique is an entry-level Charm that lets you feign death in a way only characters with superhuman or magically enhanced senses even get a chance to see through. Playing possum seems kind of pathetic for a deathknight and the use cases for this seem kinda limited, but it's there if you don't want to invest into Abyssal Stealth as a last resort I suppose.

>>98845000
Can Abyssal Stealth compare to all the bullshit Solar Stealth can spool? Teleports, perfect defenses, unlimited initiative stacking etc.

>>98845016
It comes pretty close. The general rule of thumb with Abyssals is that they're more functional than Solars, in exchange for lacking some of the utterly silly shit they have as part of Holdenmorke's weird ideas for future proofing them.

But Flawless Assassination Style (Stealth 3, E1) lets you roll JB which also counts as rolling for concealment. There's a couple Charms to make threaten rolls without breaking concealment too. Atrocity Without Witness lets extra attack sux overflow into stealth autosux, you've got Shadow-Pinning Strike to pin down people by their shadows, Imperceptible Phantom Embodiment lets you choose one sense to be utterly imperceptible to, and Soul-Haunting Infiltration lets the Abyssal enter someone's shadow and puppet them like a certain Solar one. Shadow-Striding Wraith is your darkness-based instantaneous movement option; it's strictly worse because it requires E5 and total darkness just to move out to midrange. Whisper of Sudden Demise guarantees your next unexpected attack becomes an ambush, but Dark Wings Scatter is your roll-off based effective PD to reveal someone just struck an Abyssal's illusion.

For all these reasons, Abyssal Stealth is oddly less exciting and technically worse at hiding (because Abyssals rely on darkness more, instead of having Blurred Form Style) and more realistic. It just focuses on killing people instead of teleporting back to a spawnpoint or leaving logs behind when you fade from sight like Naruto. Strictly speaking it's slightly worse because there's more reliance on darkness and lack of perception while as written, Solar Stealth keeps working even if the Solar paints himself pink and is trying to hide in broad daylight at noon.

1/2

>>98845016
One of the Abyssal Stealth capstones, Dread Eye Sees All, is functionally a teleportation Charm that fluffwise is the Abyssal dramatically revealing themself to a hated foe-and getting extra willpower for catching someone with their pants down. The other, Seven Edges of the Raiton, lets you pull out 7 artifact knives, each of whicch is apparently a punishment forbidden by the Old Laws and may or may not have anything to do with the Black Heron. Each provides a reflexive second attack that doesn't give Initiative, and each has OC powers from healing 1 healh level for each level of decisive damage up to (Essence), to halving soak, to unblockable attacks that ignore cover, to letting you strike with 2 blades instead of 1 next turn. It's kind of a weird fit for Stealth, really. It feels like a Melee and Heron-themed Charm someone really wanted to include, but got told the Lion had Melee on lock, and really only tangentially has anything to do with the rest of Abyssal Stealth.

Which I cannot stress enough, is somehow less weird than Solar Stealth. I mean, they can't even wipe themselves from living memory like Solars.

2/2

A rant on the fancord made me wonder: How big a deal is a Withering clash? I was told the Infernal Melee one is by far the best in the game, barring maybe one Alchemical option that requires like 4 modules.

>>98845361
Clashes are always a big deal because they let you substitute attack for your defense and most clashes are decisive, which have lousier accuracy than withering. So if you can clash with withering versus an opponent's decisive attack, you have a superior attack pool and you can chop huge chunks off their init pool, add it to yours, and if you actually break them you can use PBA or a similar effect to immediately follow up with a decisive attack using your newly embiggened init pool. Also successful clashes also penalize the opponent's DVs.

But I don't know how the Infernals do it, I'd like to know more.

>>98845361
>How big a deal is a Withering clash?
It's incredible for your mote economy because you defend and attack with the same commitments. If it's Reflexive then it's incredible for your action economy, speeding you up a whole turn. It's only good defensively, but it is definitely good because you want to clash against a decisive attacker anyway because they're the big meaningful attacks, and since he isn't benefitting from Accuracy while you are you win that.

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>>98845522
Hmm, noted.

>>98845433
I'm actually shocked to hear that, I thought this place would've talked about it more. Here it is. Reflexive, can be upgraded to not be Decisive-only, doesn't give Initiative normally, like much of the Infernal charmset rewards being a salty bitch.

Relevant to Infernal Clashes specifically-making an attack a surprise is supplemental, decisive counterattacks that are potentially also gambits and can use the opponent's Initiative are reflexive, and the block the unblockable parry PD is not only supplemental but can be upgraded to pull motes out of your ass as long as you keep fighting like a Chad instead of doing that plink-plonk movie swordfighting that is the Withering initiative game.

Infernal Melee as a whole is very offensive. You're encouraged to keep rushing different opponents, many Charms are Decisive attacks and victory by setting the battlefield aflame or hurting your opponent's feelings appears to be a core part of Infernal melee combat doctrine. When it first came out, there were some vocal complaints that an Athletics Charm (Argument From The Peak) seemed to be the best withering assist. Months after white room autists have looked at the charmset, and the growing seems to be that Infernal Melee is unironically stronger than Solar Melee purely at killing people and big things Melee normally has trouble with-at the expense of lacking Defend Other tricks, not being able to turbocharge automatic successes or ignore Hardness quite the same way, and Fervent Blow/Invincible Fury of the Dawn being what they are. Strictly speaking, Dawns are still the superior masters of the blade.

It is just that Infernals have a way of turning a swordfight into a spreading pool of hellfire that doesn't burn the ADHD demon blademaster bouncing everywhere, "parrying" by smashing your attack aside with their sword and can blow you up with a stupid amount of GSNF upgrades as long as you even get a papercut through your Hardness.

*and the growing sentiment

>>98845433
Also looking back, it's kind of awkward that even though fluffwise Molten Sun Blade seems to be a superheated holy torch, mechanically this doesn't seem to actually affect opponents. Only mundane objects or letting Solars torch entire battlegroups, but nothing for someone who can actually stand up to a Solar enough to have a proper fight. In that light, I think 3e Star-Piercing Spear kind of has the best of both worlds for someone willing to go deep into Mele purely because GSNF does so much shit through upgrades (Agg damage, infection, use after attack roll but before damage roll, forms Tie of terrified awe, environmental hazard, feat of demolition) it might as well suck your dick and file your taxes as well. And Star-Piercing Spear focuses on making that shit more efficient, so you don't have to choose between cutting holes in walls like a Solar and hurting people's feelings by stabbing them (for 2m) like an Abyssal. Don't get me wrong, Solar Melee still does a lot of shit Infernal Melee doesn't, but blemishes like that at Corona of Radiance stand out all the more as a result.

I will say though I don't think there's a lot of incentive for Demon-Ogre's Cudgel (the "sufficiently monstrous Solar has the option of using STR for attacks with heavy/medium weapons" Charm Abyssals also get) unless there's synergy with Infernal Brawl I haven't noticed.

>>98847197
It is nearly 2027, people stopped talking about their builds around covid.

>>98847250
Tragic. You'd think covid would bring out more white roommaxxing. I personally enjoyed it but I gather most people do not actually get much out of isolation.

>>98847279
Cabin fever doesn't really bring out productivity in most people, specially with hobbies like this.
I enjoyed my time locked away from work but I don't really remember what I did during it. My mind is like a sieve.

>>98847293
People are kind of burnt out from 3e's rules obtuseness, to this day people are still discovering new things about it.

>>98847303
Understandable. One of the reasons why I enjoy 3e Infernals so much is because the rest of the edition has built up so much spite and resentment in me, that at this point I am just chortling at the shinies my favourites get and the fact that even though I myself aren't too sure, the dedicated white room combat autists on the fancord increasingly seem to agree even without Devil-Bodies popping that Infernals are fucking busted this edition.

It is a bitter little silver lining and I would much rather have a game where everyone gets to be awesome, but if only one splat shines I'm glad it's the one I was afraid would be utterly ruined.

Even if I still think it's kind of silly they get to do SMAs this edition. 3e devs don't like the Perfect Lotus, I guess.

>>98847303
I think the more recent versions of WW games have the tendency to be unnecessarily clunky with a lot of their stuff while trying to simplify it but that's probably me misremembering the core stuff because it's not quite what I remember from the version I'm most familiar with.

They have a gimmicks and unless your game benefits from said gimmick you are better off cannibalizing it to the version you actually run. IDK, guess I'm just being pretentious over a game I rarely get to run or play.

>>98847197
While I still dislike 3e as a whole, I am glad the names and thematics of Infernal Charms have never changed.

>>98847394
>SMAs this edition. 3e devs don't like the Perfect Lotus, I guess.
It is to sell SMAs to more splatfags.

>>98847555
3e is always doing shit like this and justify it as being "player facing", which is a polite way of saying the devs no longer have a coherent creative vision for the game, are just here to get paid and clock out, and would write Solar-level DBs if they thought it would earn them more paypigs on backerkit. 3e is fundamentally the worst edition because good and bad, it is fundamentally approached as a product to be marketed to neurotic chronically online Discord users and not a roleplaying experience with universally resonant themes. And it will get away with this because upper management's top priority seems to be saving pennies instead of figuring out what has fundamentally gone wrong with the game. From their perspective, nothing has as long as retards are willing to throw their life savings at absurdly meaningless backerkit goals in order to get a glorified commissioned OC into the books. Which they are.

>>98847547
Essence made me very, very worried. And there'll always be a part of me that will be curious how things would've turned out if the initial 3e preview for Infernals, in which Devil-Bodies were apparently going to be more direct representations of the Yozis and could be modified more directly by specific Infernal Charms, would've turned out.

But still, what we ended up getting is still, in my very biased opinion, the most fun Charmset in 3e and certainly fairly on-theme. You get to possess people through diseases, you get the only interesting "roll a free Excellency" Charm in the entire damn edition because it also lets you banish someone to Cecelyne if you win. Some stuff is less absolute, but 3e being more roll-off based is kind of a net boon for Infernals because it means permanent effects like Scar-Writ Saga Shield making your Soak and Hardness retardedly high FOREVER more valuable and means effects like Soul-Sieve Transformation ALSO halve attack AND damage roll successes meaning with the amount of Dodge Charms you to give them something to do. Which in a lot of circumstances, effectively makes it a de facto Reflexive PD-especially if you use the upgrade to dematerialise foes. And Thrown lets you fuckin' flashstep between rangebands while reflexively establishing concealment then throw unblockable attacks that ignore cover which you can see through because someone decided it would be funny to put Cecelyne and Ebby's shit in the same ability.

It's not all just Yozi thematics though, 3e Infernals have a bunch of "I'm a salty bitter FUCK of a warlock" Charms that generally reward extreme spite and overkill. There is a little REALLY off the wall shit though, like manifesting the dreams of the Yozis into a Mardukth Charm and they just threw in some Theion Charms too.

>>98848255
Essence's charmset for Infernals isn't that bad holistically with the Companion + Player's Guide. Even if you just take the core book alone, it is not that bad. No idea why you have to be such a fag about it.

>>98848255
>they're op which means they're fun
No gamer detected, just like every other Infernal fan.

>>98848685
>"Nooooooo I can't be strong, feeling powerful is against the core concept of Exalted!"
So much for an epic high-flying role-playing game

>>98848685
I do enjoy playing a demigod in the demigod roleplaying game, yes.

>>98848678
>it is not that bad
>Devil-Body is total ass
>GSNF is worse than some Lunar Charm
Go fuck yourself, after sucking off Vance and his shills some more.

>>98848685
Why are you saying nogames like it's an insult? At this point, playing Exalted is more of a humiliation ritual than not.

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>>98849655
>At this point, playing Exalted is more of a humiliation ritual than not.

Every White Wolf game ever is a humiliation ritual, they can't come up with anything else. Stop being an ass and run a solo game so you can tailor everything to your tastes.

>>98848854
>So much for an epic high-flying role-playing game
This tag line was always bait.

>>98849697
1e versions of lostlings and Geist weren't.
And 2e Awakening is somehow more of a power fantasy than exalted ever was.

But you are right otherwise.

>>98849742
I don't remember much about 1e CofD changeling is about bullshiting your way into power because your own Contracts were too ass to use so that sounds like a toss.

Geist 1e was slow as hell because you got like 10 powers per character at 0xp but you were otherswise free to do whatever as long as your ghost didn't cock block you.

Mage is mage, so if you aren't tripping on your own power something is very wrong.

>>98849731
At the end of the day they are a roided up version of the Imbued with all the the snags that entails unleashed in a more fantastical WoD without a clear goal until the Cult of the Iluminated became a thing.

>>98849785
Both 2e Geist and Lostling were rewritten to fit the oppression Olympics zeitgeist.

1e lostlings = pre Disney fairy tales, with all that entails.
Riding the dark fairy tales zeitgeist.

2e's, at least Hill's version, victim complex game, "I have to make people miserable to empower myself".

1e Geist is a game about getting a second chance at life, 2e's is "how do you fight against systematic oppression, if you aren't actively fighting oppression, you are unplayable and part of the problem"

>>98849785
>At the end of the day they are a roided up version of the Imbued with all the the snags that entails unleashed in a more fantastical WoD without a clear goal until the Cult of the Iluminated became a thing.
They're like Imbued in a non-crossover. No vampires or changelings or werewolves, just Imbued and humanity with spirits in the background.

>>98849697
I agree, Exalted is best as a solo game. That's why I'm doing it in Jumpchain format where the mechanics don't get in the way of the fluff.

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>>98849697
Based.
That's what I'm doing, in my current game I'm helping Lyta to build a superpower island nation we are "recruiting" DBs and setting up a breeding program for them and my Lunar mate likes to watch from the couch.

>>98840055
What are the methods of life extensions in Creation ranked by both ease and morality?

>>98850495
There has always been life prolonging drugs, there are also hearthstones that make you immortal while attuned to them, alongside other miscellaneous artifacts and in 3e you can do it with a second or third circle sorcerous working depending on how good it is.

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>>98850189
>mechanics don't get in the way of the fluff.
Funny how common it is, for people to this conclusion.

>>98849617
>gets to wyld shape anywhere so long as they desecrated it first
>can freely steal charms from people they have a negative intimacy toward with no restriction and no once per scene limitation like Power From Darkness
>devil body isn't once per story
>"but they don't get 10 scrimblo dice so they can do 15 scrimblo points of damage"
low IQ low imagination Infernalfag. I can definitely see how you're a nogamer.

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Do Lunars get any charms that help them with producing hordes of beasts? Like if I wanted to do a Tyranid type plague of beasts upon a land.

>>98851052
We've been over this, nogames is a badge of honor, not a demerit at this point in the game's life cycle. Also while having the most dice has never been the point of Infernals, it doesn't help that both 3e and Essence increasingly tilt towards dice tricks mattering more and more; this is why people came up with the cheerleading meta for Essence. Plus the description for Penumbras making them the Social Justice Warrior Exalted is pretty fucking gay.

>>98850252
Serious question, how are you preventing Lyta from murdering the horny DBs in a fit of rage?

>>98851462
Like the Sidereals did in caste book dawn, "those are actually the reincarnated holy servants of the solar exalted".

>>98851422
I remember seeing a charm that let Lunars split off weak clones in 2e but I don't remember if they were in DOTFA or just homebrew.

>>98851443
What's the cheerleading meta?

>>98851462
Dick Lyta into obedience, dick DBs into obedience.

>>98851462
She can be convinced to not murder all DBs after all; she expects to see them redeemed once the Realm falls.
So they can renounce their loyalty to the realm or be outcastes willing to help.

>>98851561
Your circle mates using the team up rules to build power for you.

>>98851608
>>98851443
NGL, the cheerleader stuff might be the worst thing about Essence.

>>98849870
Ah yes, the give me an Imbued game with NOTHING. Jokes aside I memory holed how they handled the Risen and company in either the TTRPG and Videogame.

>>98850591
Get sold one thing and are asked to use shit that doesn't quite support it.

>>98850252
Avarage Independent Solar activities. I hope you get something fun out of them.

>>98850495
There are life extension potions that will get you to 250-ish with mortal alchemy.
There are 5+ dot Heart stones of immortality but good luck with getting your hands on them.
The jade born have the ability to encase people in a healing caccon but good luck not going insane out of boredom.
And lastly there are the peaches and apples but they are also rare as hell in creation.

>>98851422
>Do Lunars get any charms that help them with producing hordes of beasts?
That's just mortal summoning and Beastmen breeding charms.

Which yozi Charmsets best complement the Solar Charmset through Primordial Principle Emulation yoinking?

>>98851943
Theion or Malfeas

>>98851552
>I remember seeing a charm that let Lunars split off weak clones in 2e but I don't remember if they were in DOTFA or just homebrew.
Glories of the Most High: Luna
Which is also where most of the beastman breeding charms are come to think of it. It's almost like there was an injection of fanfiction flanderizing everything it touched after fan writers were recently given permission to write for canon in late 2e or something... I don't know what we'd call such a group though. We'd name it after some obscure hooting monkey from Creatures of the Wyld probably.

>>98851642
>NGL, the cheerleader stuff might be the worst thing about Essence.
Wrong, it's the best part. Characters who want to be helpful but not engage directly in the fighting should be a valid archetype and Essence did it well. They aren't busted OP and they aren't weak or useless and they aren't even mandatory to participate in combat beyond that multiple people teaming up matters more in Essence than it does mainline. They're well executed. As an idea they have merit. The worst you can say about them is that their stunts aren't great, but that's probably a good thing if you want the spotlight of combat on people fighting.

>>98850495
Alchemical anagathics like age-staving cordial are the easiest and most moral but also least effective. Apotheosis into some kind of spirit is next-best. Mutations can also make you long-lived or even immortal with the right bloodline, but run into some morality issues because people often go to the worst options. Manses can be designed to extend lifespan for residents, possibly indefinitely, and they're even easier once you've got them set up but perhaps a bit less easy since it commits you to fighting over territory, but more moral because a bunch of people share it. Demesnes that give the right mutations are in the same place but less moral because you just turned up to occupy them. Hearthstones are a bit worse on both fronts because only one person benefits and though you can hide them on your body they're still attached to a fortress you need to keep control of. Peaches of Immortality. Sorcerous workings do whatever your Storyteller allows, but at the cost of experience points and time and effort and risk of use and potential for catastrophe or mistake. Some spells like Theft of Years can let you recover your youth. Some artifacts can make you immortal or can be worked around to make you immortal - a Solar sorcerer casting Theft of Years into a sorcery-capturing cord and then whoever needs the youth using that captured spell to get it, for example. Elder Solar Medicine can restore your youth. Eternal Crystalline Encasement can freeze someone in time, prolonging their life until they are released - potentially if they have some method of indefinitely possessing someone or getting their soul out of the encasement (e.g. Links Born of Tumult, possibly The Spy Who Walks in Darkness if you allow the possessing sorcerer to recast it to extend the duration) it could even be a kind of immortality. Death and becoming a ghost is an option. You could also go akuma to get access to any of the above.

>>98851943
She Who Lives in Her Name and Cecelyne. The former because their craft charms stack multiplicatively and her wyld-shaping charms can work in Creation to fix some of the issues that've been around since the First Age, and the latter because their bureaucracy supporting charms work on completely different principles but should work together multiplicatively just fine.

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>>98852512
whenever someone says cheerleaders I think of this

>>98852622
I think of the peanut gallery that's always on the side of a wuxia/xianxia fight, picking apart the other guy's style and talking up their allies.

>>98852681
If we're going that far then we might as well include the narrator from Ninja Slayer who goes NAMU=SAN or G O U R A N G A whenever anyone does anything.

I'm not saying it's bad, just saying.

>>98852733
Tengen in JJK narrating everybody's busted abilities.

>>98851422
they get beast summoning in 1e, I don't think 3e let's them have control over animal hordes. In Essence, Solars get it.

>>98852506
Lunars breeding beastmen was from 1e, where they were out and proud rapists.
The cloning charm was just the devs trying to pull Lunars from 1e's lunars shitness, that the 3e's devs sent them back kicking and screaming.

>>98853655
Clone charms were just an excuse to copy and paste the Shadow Clone Jutsu the Lunars were the only ones who got something worth remembering.

On paper the Sids should have that shit because it fits their bullshittery.

The Solars and company could have something that works with them but I can't think of anything of the top of my head besides Necromancy.

>>98853725
>but I can't think of anything of the top of my head besides Necromancy.
Advanced Wyld-Shaping Technique shenanigans?

>>98853725
>>98853785
adjoran infernals have something like this. But wow
>Advanced Wyld-Shaping Technique shenanigans?
>Necromancy
you guys are creative dead ends. No wonder this general is filled with dumb retards, it's because you guys are prolific posters.

>>98853797
Fuck you too.

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Playing exalted with people online is like pulling your teeth out with pliers.
You can't do anything cool because everyone is a no fun allowed moralfag.

>>98853725
It was more "give lunars a niche" and "sun wukong".

>The Solars and company could have something that works with them but I can't think of anything of the top of my head besides Necromancy.
Solars' could be in bureaucracy, as the law is the extension of the king's will, or give dodge the ability of creating mirages.
Sidereals could exist in multiple places at the same time.
Dragon Blooded's would summon copies of their sworn brotherhood, this Charm becomes free if they died recently or if the Dragon Blooded is facing their killers and/or defining intimacies.
Alchemicals just use drones.
Abyssals could create haunts, whose multiple possible shapes include the Abyssals themselves.
Infernals have Adorjan and Szoreny.
Umbrals summon a personification of the targets negative intimacies.

>>98855551
>>98855551
The key problem with clones is that they are extremely powerful force multipliers if the clones have access to your charms.

>>98855579
Yes, I know, it screws with action economy, act like meat shields, extra hp, remove battle field clarity, etc...
Because of this, the Solar one is more about logistics.

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How would you build Lyta for a game of Essence?

>>98855802
Don't all DBs in the realm have 'asian ancestry' cos both big red and the blessed isle are 'asian'

>>98856123
the realm has anime roman aesthetics while Lookshy is more technological Shogunate Japan.

>>98855802
Sex with this Solar supremacist.

>>98853725
>The Solars and company could have something that works with them but I can't think of anything of the top of my head besides Necromancy.
High level biomotonic replicants that accurately replicate all their Solar charms.

I want to hear all of the best names for mixed circles. I’ve seen Death and Taxes for Abyssal + Sidereal, Black Gold for Abyssal + Solar, and Fault in Our Stars for Infernal + Sidereal, but I haven’t seen many for DBs or Lunars.

>>98856179
Every piece of art of the Realm looks like Imperial China, anon. The fact that they sometimes use Roman words means nothing.

>>98856179
The Realm's a fantasy amalgamation of a lot of different empires, with influence from China and Rome, of course, a bit of Persia, a bit of European colonialism, a bit of other stuff, but aesthetics-wise it's always been more China than anything.

>>98856598
There's a difference between looking like something, and actually being like it.
We don't see the Realm pulling "decisive Tang strategic victories".

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>when you're in the "most useless shitter ever" competition and you're up against a Dawn Solar

>>98856676
We were talking about aesthetics, illiterateanon. If you want to talk about the Realm more broadly, though, it's obviously not any real world empire, but it's definitely not closer to Rome than to China.

>>98856595
>DBs
We're Not the Wyld Hunt Anymore!

>>98856686
>but it's definitely not closer to Rome than to China.
It is more British empire with a Chinese coat of paint.
1e civilizations were expies of the enemies and victims of the British, such as the Zulu.

>>98856693
That might be true for the Realm's foreign policy, but internally it's more Chinese than British, though, again, it's not literally any specific RL culture.

>>98856698
>internally it's more Chinese than British
The institutions don't feel like those of imperial Chinese.
Maybe it is because of the whole "civil war for the throne", but the Realm's institutions don't feel Chinese or Roman, the latter is noticeable with the treatment of the senate.

>>98856681
I'm sure there are versions of the game where their cast ability isn't ass, something something favored abilities let make them viable.

>>98856719
White people in the 90s couldn't replicate the feel of a Chinese Court, not exactly surprising but still weird how it works.

>>98856179
Ok? I disagree (it's more china than rome outside of military organization) but culture's not even relevant, we're talking about ethnicities and both the blessed isle and momma red is asian

>>98856681
Dawns not only fuck, they outright rape in EXvsWOD.

>>98856691
Zenith harem or Eclipse harem?

>>98856681
It's sad because Dawns have my favorite thematics. You know how the Primordials are the Tribe of Dreamers? Well, "Life is but a dream. It is morning for you." I find it hard to play anything but a Dawn even though all the other Castes are better.

>>98856595
Love and Justice for Sidereals + Solars
I Can't Believe It's Not ATLA for DB + Solars
We Could Be Worse for Abyssals + Infernals

>>98856123
Isn't the scarlet empress a, may Allah forgive me for uttering these words, white woman?

>>98856955
She's the color of white jade or marble I can't remember which, but either way it isn't really a natural skin color. Without the aspect markings she'd probably be olive-skinned like most of the Realm, so I guess it depends on whether you consider that white.

>>98857000
If I remember correctly she hasn't been depicted with asian ethnic features including mnemon and the roseblack.

>>98857025
My understanding is that people from the Realm are closest to greek.

>>98857043
It's Greek with some orientalism thrown into the blender along with it. Every exalted culture is a mix of several IRL ones. Except for the obvious two places that everyone knows.

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>>98857043
Apparently they're asian in 3e, only described as 'diverse' in 2e
>>98856955
No! 2E empress looked asian

>>98856681
dawns have great powers in Essence.

>>98855551
it's so weird how you reach for Bureaucracy when Solars have had Faster Than Self Technique for a while.

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>>98856955
>>98857000
>>98857025
I thought it would be described in 1e, but apparently not.

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Her Redness from 2e

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More Redness.

It should be noted that she has grayish skin on the cover, but that might be due to TED bukkake.

>>98857127
Just Greek terms that don't have much to do with the things that the terms refers, for example Helots that don't act or are treated as Herlots

>>98857888
I don't know if Lookshy would be better off just calling helots something else or actually treating them like Spartan helots. Probably the former, as the latter would both require more extensive rewrite and leave Lookshy more unsympathetic than what's presumably the intention.

>>98857205
She never looked asian lmao
She looked like a regular redhead.

>>98840055
to whomsoever updates, the advance pdf of the Essence Player's Guide can be found in g041l3
/d/YmXuhD5R

>>98859501
shit, didn't censor

Was Iphytimia a second or third circle demon?

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>>98859501
i don't update, but thanks lil nigga.

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>>98860289
I am using this picture for a group of NPCs and I need some ideas for what powers a set of Orichalcum horns would give.

The idea is that these are the 3 Half Cast daughters of a Lunar who fell to a Wyld Hunt and want their mothers remains given to them.

>>98860414
>Daughters of a Lunar
>Orichalcum horns???
There are rules for godblooded in the pillars of creation essence book btw.

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Why did they randomly turn Arianna into a Lunar in essence?

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>>98860653
The horns were a set of artefacts that they were amalgamated with by their father. Anyway I'm just interested in some gimmicks because so far I got nothing.

>>98860684
They wanted to make a new character but needed more grog money.

>>98860736
Social powers is an obvious one, have them emulate Majestic Radiant Presence or something.

>>98860736
You can find a good source of inspiration in the deer zord from power rangers wild force

>>98860736
Social powers. Lightning and sunfire. Radiance. Make everyone around you take damage unless they drop and supplicate. Skewer creatures of darkness bonus damage. Herd clouds away from you, creating sunny days and if you can go fast enough letting you manipulate the weather by herding your desired weather conditions around ahead of you. Fracture pieces of the antlers off as symbols of sovereignty that lend bonus social dice.

>>98851422
Not in 3e, they get Wild Fury Awakening which has a stipulation that you sort of need beasts appropriate to the region otherwise you get a tiny battlegroup. Solars also get a version of that in Essence with a similar stipulation, except they can use a Mode charm to *always* summon a beast appropriate to their Caste

>>98860761
Sounds fair enough.

>>98860854
... Fuck it, why not? I haven't watched power Rangers in forever.

>>98862286
Herding clouds and elementals sounds like a neat gimmick for their troops.

>>98860221
Can't believe this has gone unanswered for so long, but third. 2e also unintentionally(?) implied she is comically powerful in one specific area: She specifically goes after powerful non-demonic beings, like First Age Exalts, as lovers. And by the Age of Sorrows, is somehow completely unconquered while leaving a trail of broken playthings in her wake.

>>98840055
Weekly Update
got delayed by yesterday's maintenance and forgot until today
>Manuscript Approval
Liminals
We’re on the edge of getting Liminals approved! Eh? Eh? Because they’re liminal? I’ll see myself out
>Art Direction
Infernals – First batch of finals with devs
Liminals (BK) – At Paradox for approval
Essence STG – Working on art buy for the rest of the book
>Press
Essence PG – Errata input
Alchemicals KS Shirt – Out to backers this week
Abyssals KS Shirt – Out to backers this week
errata is being done for the backer pdf which our diligent archivist has uploaded during our forced downtime. the alchemical/abyssal shirts above are available to their backers as well, and i must say the designs are truly bad, but there you go
https://www.indiegogo.com/en/projects/onyxpathpublishing/abyssals-sworn-to-the-grave-for-exalted-3e/updates/61
https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/onyx-path/alchemicals-forged-by-the-machine-god-for-exalted-3e-rpg/updates/54495

>>98863331
>I haven't watched power Rangers in forever.
Healing, wards, purification and songs.

>>98863751
>Alchemicals KS Shirt – Out to backers this week
>Abyssals KS Shirt – Out to backers this week
It is surprising how long those take to be made.

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Why would I waste my XP on individual charms when I can spend it on Craft charms and replicate the effect of every charm I could ever want for free?

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>>98864465
Reminds me of this charm from essence.

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>>98865279
>How about I give myself a 1 more discount on all my charms?

>>98865279
>>98865284
kino

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>>98865314
Not only that they can give random people essence pools to use those charms too.

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I heard Infernals can learn charms from other splats like Solars in essence but I can't find that charm.
Where is it?

>>98865533
>The Infernal can temporarily learn Eclipse Charms from demons, and can stack multiple uses to gain up to (Essence) Eclipse Charms. She can learn them permanently for eight experience points each, after which they don’t count toward the maximum. She waives the experience point cost of the first Eclipse
Charm she learns this way.

>With Occult 5, Essence 3, if the Infernal has Wayward Divinity Oversight, she can learn Eclipse Charms from any entity it’s compatible with. She must commit three motes for each Charm she learns from a non demon, unless she learns them permanently with experience.

>>98865533
the charm that was being talked about earlier is also in Essence, the core book. Dark Miracle Mimicry.

It's not this charm >>98865629 , which is form 3e. 3e doesn't allow Exalts to use things like that, outside of a VERY cheeky reading of a certain artefact from Arms of the Chosen that can grant Solar Charms to non Solars.

>>98865629
>>98865640
Found it but it's not permanent, so only Solars get to learn other splats charms permanently?

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Now that I think about it Solars can, not only permanently learn others charms but also easily share them with a one more discount to top it off.
Insane lmao

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>>98865868
This also includes martial arts charms so they can potentially share sidereal martial arts to characters that can't use them on top of third circle spells.

>>98863804
they have been dragging their feet through fulfilling the inconsequential tat stretch goals, especially considering they don't make new art. the shirts in particular are very slapdash as the links demonstrate

>>98864465
Lack of in-character time or excess of in-character pressure. Lack of out-of-character time or effort. Committed motes and attunement times - an artifact that replicates a charm effectively costs more motes than just learning the charm, and doesn't have the full utility of the charm since it'll sometimes not be available. It's also a pain for your Storyteller to have to proofread all of these artifacts you plan to make, and artifacts being clearly more powerful than native charms may not fit with their vision of the world.

It's kind of like asking why you would spend your xp on canon charms when custom charms can do everything they can do but better.

>>98866461
>and artifacts being clearly more powerful than native charms may not fit with their vision of the world.
How did they let this slip?

>>98866475
Artifacts mostly aren't clearly more powerful than native, Charms, except maybe for DBs.

>>98866578
>Artifacts mostly aren't clearly more powerful than native, Charms, except maybe for DBs.
They are from a certain perspective, which is that you get to start with artifacts near the top of the food chain by just taking Artifact 5s, whereas with charms you have to go up the tree and are gated by Essence requirements for most of the game. A chargen character swinging an Artifact 5 should find that it's effect is something more powerful than their native charms can get them, even if they are a Solar.

>>98840055
to whomsoever updates, the final pdf of the Crucible of Legend can be found in this g041l3
/d/BDQPRaJF

>>98859501
>>98867048
Updated

>>98867069
thank you very much

>>98865855
Solars get to use it once per story and permanently yeah.

>>98865868
>>98865878
Solars have been complete shit for so long that it's genuinely jarring to see them get powerful charms.

>>98865868
it's funny how Lunars in 3e have a charm like this, but it's eclipse only and requires willpower.

>>98866578
They are, but only the non-weapons/armor.

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>>98867261
>Team up with my infernal bro.
>He steals a cool charm from our enemy
>While he retains it I learn it permanently
>Then he lets it go and I etch the charm to his body as a tattoo fetish so he can use it with a one mote discount.

>>98867281
Essence is honestly the best Exalted has ever been from a balance perspective. Solars get a lot of nice stuff that just makes them play and act much easier than others can, without any other Exalt feeling particularly weak in turn. If optimized, a Solar solely dedicated to one thing will beat almost any other Exalt type if they also dedicate to the same niche. Other Exalts do have things only they can do, but Solars get the most "just do it" stuff as a whole and free Excellencies mean they win any battle of attrition fullstop.

>>98869662
It's kind of funny that the only way to make Solars "unbeatable" is to design an edition where free excellencies are the only thing that matter for conflict resolution.

>>98870555
It is because Essence devs tried to actually put a hard cap in the dice bloat, meaning that they had to pivot solars away from being stat sticks.

>>98870555
Not quite how it works. Excellencies aren't something you necessarily want to use, even as a Solar, since all they do is give bonus dice and compete for Step 1 in combat. There's a lot of really good charms and generally things you might want to do that aren't +4/5 dice. What it means is that after it's been 3 or 4 turns, when every other Exalt type is bottoming out and having to choose which charm they want to use for the turn, the Solar can then fall back on Excellencies while conserving their motes for defense or finishing blows, and as a result have real staying power the longer a fight goes on. Solars also win ties.

Infernals sort of also have really good staying power since they just get extra motes back and faster so they can use more charms the longer a fight goes on as well, but unlike Solars aren't limited to using and abusing just Excellencies.

A more subtle benefit Solars retain is that since Excellency doesn't cost motes in Essence, it doesn't generate Anima to use them, thus a Solar can hide in plain sight without attracting too much attention where any other Exalt has to go loud to make full use of their power unless they have some way to bleed off Anima and fast, without that also giving away what they are. Not as applicable to a kosher Exalt type of course.

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>>98871037
Solars can also generate 2 motes per round and because Infernals are creatures of darkness Solars are extra good at curb stomping them.

>>98871101
That is an Essence 4 Charm most Solars won't have access to.

But yes a Zenith in particular and Solars generally are pretty good at beating the shit out creatures of darkness.

>>98870555
>free excellencies are the only thing that matter for conflict resolution.
What? They're dogwater in combat and not that incredible outside of it compared to using any other charm.

Steps are a thing. You can't use Excellency and another Step 1 thing at the same time. There are plenty of real charms that beat Excellency for that Step 1 slot in combat and while the free Excellency is great when you're out of combat and have all the time in the world, you're still buying each Excellency instead of another charm.

>>98871037
>>98871304
Solars need a way to make excellencies not count as a charm activation NGL.
There is another saving grace, though, that excellencies can be used out of step reflexively for any roll too.

>>98871449
Nah, I think it's fine actually. It gives Solars WAY more staying power in and out of combat and means you can't ever truly exhaust a Solar. It's also very nice at Essence 1 and 2 since it's a cheap way to make a character a lot more flexible.

>>98871037
Most charms in essence are extremely situational. Excellencies aren't.

>>98871449
>There is another saving grace, though, that excellencies can be used out of step reflexively for any roll too.
Nnnnno, they can't actually do that. That's a misread of the Reflexive Action section which I'm going to put picrel. How it actually works is that anything that makes a Reflexive action creates a new action with it's own Step sequence. So, if you made a reflexive attack action Excellency would be used on Step 1 of that attack, and if you made a reflexive persuade action Excellency would be put on Step 1 of that action. If you resist poison as a reflexive action and activate Malady-Resisting Meditation (which is a Step 1 charm, as all activated charms without an explicit step are Step 1 by default) you would not be able to also Excellency that poison resist roll.

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>>98871595
>which I'm going to put picrel
*which I'm going to forget to put picrel.

>>98871449
>>98871595
Either that or it's a misread of 'can be used freely outside combat', which is also covered by default rules.

>>98871555
But in their situational niche they're basically always superior to extra dice, such as simply outright succeeding with no roll unless someone has a counter-charm to actively resist your "I do this without incident" Charm

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Solars, Abyssals, Lunars and even Dragonblooded ate extremely good in Essence.

Sidereals and Infernals not so much. I don't give a fuck about Getimians but they have some OP boswellox

>>98871898
>Sidereals
??????
Sidereals are fucking busted what are you talking about. I'll admit I haven't read the Player's Guide in detail so maybe everybody else gets megabuffs, but in Core and Pillars of Creation they're the the nuttiest bastards out there. Their charms are incredible top-tier nonsense, their anima powers are all good, their advantages are nuts. Sidereals and nobody else get to learn martial arts with Exalt charms (you know, the ones you earn basically every session and usually just spend on splat/universal charms), so maybe you're judging how 'good' things are on pure combat and not considering the second half of their charmset in the MA section, but even when it comes to pure combat with their native charmset they're still pretty fucking silly. Sidereals and nobody else get access to a spammable perfect defense with Deferred Wounds, for example. Outside of combat Efficient Secretary Technique is commit 1 mote for +2 automatic non-charm successes to every roll you make, indefinitely - and people are saying free Excellencies are busted, when that exists? Unswerving Juggernaut Principle commits 2 motes to reroll every failed die forever, even in combat (steplessly at that).

>Infernals
Their narrative sucks. Mechanically they stumbled with Infernals in the beginning, and it's mostly because a lot of their best effects in core were kind of flat or relied on penalties and Excellent Strike fucks penalty-infliction up the ass, but their 2m breath of war is great and their anima powers are pretty good. They improved a lot with the full release of core, then again with Pillars, and my understanding is they're quite good with Players Guide.

>>98871968
It's more the structure and play style I was talking about than power, the regular Sidereal structure is just way too good and fun.

>>98871968
>but their 2m breath of war is great and their anima powers are pretty good
That's very cold comfort with all the other downsides you listed, plus desu being able to W-ST in Creation isn't really that busted in Essence.

Not that I care since I don't fuck with Essence in general. The devs seem to have been properly whipped by their reception, since the manuscript for Infernals in 3e proper has been very complimentary.

>>98872257
> plus desu being able to W-ST in Creation isn't really that busted in Essence.
literally reality warping Creation without having to go to bumfuck nowhere isn't busted because...where is my le 30 initiative combo burst?
please stfu infernalhomo whiteroomer.

>>98872382
>literally reality warping Creation without having to go to bumfuck nowhere isn't busted because...where is my le 30 initiative combo burst?
>please stfu infernalhomo whiteroomer.
Getimians are a thing, being able to WST in Creation isn't a big deal compared "retcon the Realm away" charm.

>>98872514
nta but I have always hated getimians for the fact they basically swipe two Yozi for...reasons? 3e manuscript doesn't even have any Oramus charms in it, because all that shit went to Getimians.

>>98872698
>3e manuscript doesn't even have any Oramus charms in it, because all that shit went to Getimians.
Getimians aren't really chosen of those two yozis, they are more nega Sidereals with random reality warping powers.
In fact Getimians go against the themes of both Oramus and Sachs.

>>98872726
nah, the devs actually said that you won't see many / any oramus charms in infernals because a lot of that goes to Getimians. you can't judge Essence Getimians by what they're eventually getting in 3e

>>98871968
Good thing Solars can get those charms too and use them at a discount

>>98872840
>Good thing Solars can get those charms too and use them at a discount
At E4-5, in limited ways like 1/story

>>98873085
They can use it at least 2 times for each story with the twilight mode, and those are not even actually limited by caste; you can just get them if you want.

>>98872795
>you can't judge Essence Getimians by what they're eventually getting in 3e
I was judging them by Essence, they have the exigent syndromes of "patron is an afterthought" and "our theme isn't what is in our label".

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>3e
How's Sidereal Craft?

>>98873449
Didn't the Getimians had some limitations on the scope of their modifications/summons based on their casts? I forgot what they powers do in practice.

>>98874655
In the draft it was up to the st, the examples were "change the course of a river by killing its god" and "reforge an empire that never existed, by killing a directional god".

Threat Monitoring Excitement seems like the ultimate "fuck your ambushes" charm. Being able to use charms in response to ambushes seems extremely nice.

I'm thinking of a good "high appearance" build for them. I've done some math and a "Hit a guy with another guy" build requires seven charms for it to work, the other three and your devil-body being used to help that. I guess seven charms is "You are a master" levels of commitment.

>>98868504
>Infernal bro gives you a bunch of HP because they're so cool.
>Infernal bro drains your enemy WP and gives them a perma -3 to rolls to make your job easier.
>Infernal bro draws aggro so enemies don't attack you.
>Infernal bro grants you wishes.
>Infernal bro uses you as a weapon because your soak is so high and it saves you a movement action.

They're just the best for working with other exalted imo.

>>98872382
Read the actual rules for what W-ST does in Essence before you cry some more, it's not that exciting. You just conjure stuff.

>>98872795
That's funny if true because there's actually a fair number for 3e Infernals. Not everywhere, but there's an E5 one for spamming nightmares over several miles, a Craft one for pulling an artifact you never made into existence (no ludonarrative schizobabble like Solar or Abyssal Craft lmao) and a couple others. They're not absolutely everywhere, but there's a few. Could it be that it's yet ANOTHER thing that was promised by Holdenmorke that the new devs walked back on?

>>98874754
It's close but nah, it's not. Careless Cosmic Blink is the ULTIMATE "fuck your ambushes" Charm.

>Oh, I can't perceive this attack?
>It does not affect me. Period.

>>98874808
>Careless Cosmic Blink
This is true but TME is essence one, while Cosmic is essence 5. As far as I can tell every build should take it? Awareness 3 is also really low for a stat requirement.

>>98874747
... That sounds bullshit but given their concept fair enough. At least there is a cost and plot hook to change things around.

>>98874831
Ah, fair enough. Like I said earlier I gave up on Essence years ago but yeah, in terms of competitive options in Essence it's up there.

Getimians actually have cool charms, I have to say. Used to be pissed they had more "interactive big picture" stuff than Infernals who felt pigeonholed into being stuck in a halfway point designwise competing with more dice trick-prone Exalts unfavourably while having less flashy big picture/narrative stuff, but I'm mollified by Crowned With Hellfire even though I wasn't expecting to be at the time.

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>>98874855
Nta but even though I hate Essence for what it did to Infernals, even I can't deny that Charm is both real and neat.

>>98874980
It is me or the ntr charm cannot be stopped even if the Getimian loses the roll?

>>98871968
Infernals have pretty nice personal effects and narrative-wise also have a soft benefit over basically every other Exalt type since they can ask and learn things IC that would take an entire session for anyone else to figure out. They did get some needed buffs as you say but I think in part the reason they came out the gate a little weaker is because their narrative power is hard to gauge, and they can use some absolutely busted combinations to twist anyone into their way of thinking if they go the evil vizier route.

>>98875057
Culture-Hero Usurpation? No, the first part of the charm talks about what you need to roll, then the Flowing/Still modes describe what winning the roll actually does. Note that the charm does nothing without a mode. Getimian charms are often like that, they almost all use Flowing/Still, which work based on how your mote pool is set up rather than being bought with milestones like many modes.

>>98874980
I like Essence, but holy fuck the retarded writer who wrote Getimian Charms is just...well, retarded!

>>98875929
I just take all Get charms and modes and divide them between Sids and Infernals as feels appropriate because I honestly don’t like their vibe. I do like Liminals though

>>98875929
>>98876031
What's wrong with them, anon? They seem good to me. Well written, new and distinct from Exalted that've come before, certainly powerful. There's one or two that're too powerful (Summoned From Time is the only one I can think of off the top of my head), but that isn't something dividing them up between other splats is going to help with rather than harm.

>>98876031
>I just take all Get charms and modes and divide them between Sids and Infernals as feels appropriate
Let's be honest. No you don't.

>>98876252
i'm >>98875929
A lot of the Getimian powers are wildly too powerful for what is ostensibly a Celestial, like they're better than even Solars. The one where they can, with no roll, pick up entire cities or mountains and just...throw them is insane. That's something that a Solar would have to physically go and fucking do with a feat of strength while fending off people but a Get can do it normally.

The writers for the Gets charms was in the fancord defending it when the player's manuscript first came out and they got butthurt that people rightfully shat on it.

Outside of that, Getimians are an unnecessary concept - The sidereals already has the perfect fucking foil in Infernals. Because Gets exist, the Sidereal book...barely talks about Infernals and exclusively focuses on Heaven warfare as down to Getimians. They have a boring as fuck reverse It's A Wonderful Life backstory that, randomly snipe two Yozi from having a good presence in the Infernal charmset and are led by a snowflake most ancient e9/e10 Sidereal Elder who parried the sign of saturn.

This guy's presence+mini sid faction also meant, funnily enough, that there wouldn't be Sidereals NPCs that meaningfully interact with Abyssals/Infernals, because otherwise there would be too MANY Sidereal rogues. That's why Green Lady is a...staunch Bronze Faction person that hangs around Undead as a spy, but has no hooks or incentives to ever teach SMA to Abyssals or be a mysterious oracle to them. That is also why they made Bishop be able to invent AND teach Sidereal Martial Arts despite not being a Sidereal.

I genuinely think Getimian's presence in the worst thing 3e added, and I thought Getimians were still fun in Essence despite their broken charms. It has so many knock on effects and fixes that just annoy the yellow piss out of me. For a shitboring concept.

>>98876289
>The writers for the Gets charms was in the fancord defending it when the player's manuscript first came out and they got butthurt that people rightfully shat on it.
You know you dun fucked up when that damn hugbox turns on you. Anyway, I've always disliked Getimians in concept for much the same reasons, it always struck me part of their reason for existing seemed to be to take the "heat" off Infernals.

>>98876252
>What's wrong with them, anon?
Time travel/manipulation powers in a setting it wasn't meant to exist, so a lot is "save or suck" and/or "rewrite the setting story without opposition".

>>98876297
They were meant to be the new metaplot underling villain splat, alongside the scrapped true Infernals.

>>98876289
>Because Gets exist, the Sidereal book...barely talks about Infernals and exclusively focuses on Heaven warfare as down to Getimians.
Weren't Getimians barely a foot note in it? Anons mentioned how much they lacked presence in it.

>>98876289
>The writers for the Gets charms was in the fancord defending it when the player's manuscript first came out and they got butthurt that people rightfully shat on it.
If I remember right the main thing people had a problem with re: Getimian charms was them not having much to work with before Essence 3 in the preview. I do not think people outside a very fringe few were shitting on them.

>The one where they can, with no roll, pick up entire cities or mountains and just...throw them is insane. That's something that a Solar would have to physically go and fucking do with a feat of strength while fending off people but a Get can do it normally.
I'll take What is Neighbourhood Relocation Scheme for 500- this was pretty clearly supposed to be a riff on that concept, not a feat of strength equivalent.

>the rest
Not charm/mechanical concerns, meaning it's blather.

You suck, anon.

>>98876358
>If I remember right the main thing people had a problem with re: Getimian charms was them not having much to work with before Essence 3 in the preview. I do not think people outside a very fringe few were shitting on them.
No? This was not at all a complaint nor is it a problem. You are remembering things that never happened, very in theme. Getimian Charms being insanely overpowered with no rolls was a pretty big sticking point.
>I'll take What is Neighbourhood Relocation Scheme for 500- this was pretty clearly supposed to be a riff on that concept, not a feat of strength equivalent.
Dispel Distance Illusion is evidently not that nor has the same restrictions as Neighbourhood Relocation Scheme. You are a weirdly opinionated moron that pretends to have deep mechanical concerns when you're an illiterate LARP'er.
>Not charm/mechanical concerns, meaning it's blather.
Anyone that seriously plays Exalted for its mechanics and not the narrative surrounding the mechanics is textbook Database Consumption.

You read games and don't play them. You also don't read them well.

>>98876358
the writer genuinely had to say they have a degree and have read books to defend themself kek, they were being cooked.

>>98876384
>Anyone that seriously plays Exalted for its mechanics and not the narrative surrounding the mechanics is textbook Database Consumption.
The reason it's blather isn't because mechanics are the only thing that matter, it's because what was said was the charms are bad.
>>98875929
>I like Essence, but holy fuck the retarded writer who wrote Getimian Charms is just...well, retarded!
>>98876031
>I just take all Get charms and modes and divide them between Sids and Infernals as feels appropriate

>Haven't checked in on Sword of Creation in more than a year
>Visit for old times' sake
>Site not available
Damn. Discord really is eating up all the autistic online discourse, huh? All the old school forums are dying. Even /tg/ is well off by comparison.

>>98876407
You're quoting two different people, in fact one of those guys is responding to my post. You aren't beating the illiteracy allegations.

>>98876435
i think this is because of the php thing, it was still mostly inactive before that. you could go to sf and see the same tired trannies jerking each other off.

>>98876391
A degree in what?

>have read books to defend themself
As shown in 1e Lunars vs Howard's Conan, reading something doesn't mean you understand it.
In fact, I know from capeshit that you can outright plagiarize something without understanding it.

Getimians is a more recent example, they aren't Truman, but the people who enslaved him.

>>98876255
Why not? It’s not that hard to just do that on a case by case basis at all.

>>98876504
>You're quoting two different people
I still don't believe you.

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>>98876779
How about you doubt something more productive like your own value in posting here and either contribute to the discussion or stop bothering us

Getimians just seem like sidereals for players who don't want to play CIA bootlickers/mages.

>>98876837
Getimians are very different from Sidereals. That doesn't make them a good addition, but they're obviously meant to scratch a completely different itch than Siddies. Besides, ronin Sidereals are already a thing.

Personally, I think that there are salvageable elements in Getimians' concept, but as a whole they seem pretty pointless. I think it would've been a better idea to just do something more with paradox spirits. You could've even had something Getimian-like by having paradox spirits sometimes form "around" a specific human whose destiny somehow got fucked up by a Sidereal's failure, leading to a person either becoming such a spirit, being possessed by one or merging with one olchilike-style. That would've required less convoluted bullshit.

>>98876837
Don't Getimians suck off a homosexual Gary stu sidereal?

>>98876872
Nah, they're just sidereals. All the way down to having time travel built into their effects like the ones in 2e had. Narrative they're less CIA agents sure, less "I am le goberment" but it's still just sidereals. Do note "Timey whimey bullshit" is just time travel - some retards miss that.

People are old here so we really tend to forget that every 3ism was born in 2e. Time travel? 2e. Bringing people back from the dead? 2e. Characters that can destroy the world without taking any actions? 2e. CIA agents with the most powerful abilities in the game? 2e.

Now are getimians cooler then sidereals even though they're the same thing? Sure. That's just because sidereals are so incredibly gay. Literally, if I could remove any base splat it'd be the sidereals and I'd just have other exalted working together to fit the role. Fucking liminals are better then sidereals I tell you what.
>>98876337
That seems less a balance thing and more a "If you block off narrative powers from the splat and give them to others, of course they're going to be OP." and time travel stuff is hard to beat when it comes to that. Which... I guess is a balance thing but still. Classic flaw of "Wider but not as tall" aka more retard bullshit.

>>98876941
>every 3ism was born in 2e
Except when they were born in 1e, which is where pretty much all of the psuedo-time travel effects originated. Usually they were in forms that were retconned in 2e to be clearly less time travel-y too.

>>98876951
Pretty sure the time travel stuff comes from the Yozi being able to freely change time on demand along with Scroll of Monks and the Obsidian Shard SMA that auto wins stuff. I'll just accept you as being right though because I know shit about 1e. Same with resurrection, the only time someone is dead dead and flat out comes back to life is a 2e thing, because Yozi can time travel in hell.

People really need to stop confusing their homebrew for 2e with the real thing. Even if you consider all the work fans did to make 2e playable it's not canon. I've seen what homebrew turns exalted 2e into, it's a totally different game then base 2e. Spiritually, mechanically, narratively, all that. 2.5 Exalted shouldn't even be called Exalted it's so different, it should just be it's own setting with its own name.

>>98876941
>Time travel? 2e.
Sidereals' "I don't believe that it isn't time travel" started in 1e.

power wise getimians genuinely are the manifestation of when people make a Charm for a Non Sidereal and then some guy says "Hey, that sounds like a Sidereal Charm" even though the Sidereal Charmset is closed and all their powers derive from Scripture/Constellation, and it's that times six hundred and forty with a mild dash of playing with the idea of manifesting your Origin.

Though I doubt even the 3e writeup is going to heavily stipulate on your Origin limiting your Charms lest you get the same character concept of "I was a mortal who basically always rolled successes and was very lucky and connected and" to justify the top end of your Charms.

Their backstory is reverse Sidereals in that people can remember them post Exaltation but no one remembers them pre Exaltation.

>>98877049
Interesting. Besides SMA charms the biggest example of time travel in exalted I know of is Yozi being able to rewind time in hell to bring people back to life and such. I do believe you, mind. Good to know it started in 1e. Would love to read some examples if you know any off hand.

>>98876975
Yozi having freeform time travel within five days was all new 2e exclusive, but more of a symptom of late 2e/2.5e gonzo crap beginning to creep in than anything. It was several steps further than what had already been introduced and absolutely was too much, I can agree on that.

Obsidian Shards of Infinity Style's capstone, on the other hand, was not an overstep or really anything new when it comes to time travel compared to the stuff in 1e Sidereals. It was just Of Things Desired and Feared with a small tune-up to its effect reflecting that it was supposed to be stronger as a Sidereal Martial Art in the elder range. It wasn't new, just better in reasonable ways that didn't change any setting assumptions.

>>98877066
>Their backstory is reverse Sidereals in that people can remember them post Exaltation but no one remembers them pre Exaltation.
Actually it is the opposite, as in "Sidereals lost everything from their lives" vs "Getimians claims to have lost everything" the stolen valor vs Sidereals' lost valor.

>>98877067
>>98877073
CC taking 5 days AND there not being time dilation has been 1e, but 2e actually going into depth about the implications of that is what codified time travel.

>>98876941
Sidereals are one of the coolest splats, though, and Getimians are one of the least cool 3E additions, so Gets being cooler than Sids just doesn't track.

>>98877073
>Yozi having freeform time travel within five days was all new 2e exclusive,
Exalted is written as a novel, as such, 2e devs wrote this to address certain plot holes involving logistics in hell's travel and demon summoning

>>98877106
And it was a terrible mistake that never should have happened. Thing is, some people love time travel. Those people write exalted. So time travel will be in Exalted. Same with bringing people back to life.

>>98877102
The times I've seen sidereals played they're just government CIA people and basic as shit. I will accept that this is just because I haven't played with many sidereals tho. If you've played wod games then from my experience they're basically the technocracy. I've also played real weird fucking games so I guess I'm not the best example here.

If we're being honest I don't think I dislike any of the splats, I'm just less interested in certain aspects. Alchs and Liminals? Robots and undead? Not my thing, still cool enough however. I do want to make my own exigent but I feel like if I spent the energy I'd rather make a devil-tiger for 2e instead.

>>98877100
Issue is that late 2e "codified" a lot of junk that just didn't intuitively follow while trying to paste it's writer's headcanon over everything. It was never actually necessary to cross Cecelyne to get to Malfeas until they made it so in 2e, for example - teleporting worked just fine, and demon summoning didn't need you to start out five days in advance and THEN teleport into the circle for no goddamn reason. It honestly introduces a billion issues for no reason. You can travel through dreams using Dreamwalker Kata (SMA) or Dreamscape (spirit charm) for example, and characters like Makarios explicitly operate in people in Creation's dreams in real time while in Malfeas... except, again, if you're already in someone's dream there are several effects that let you just pop out of it next to the person, so Makarios effectively just made a workaround to Cecelyne that can get him into Creation instantly (he's bound in Malfeas by default and can't get into Creation normally, but for a sorcerer who summoned him it would work). The Rings of Vanishing Escape, Hurry Home, etc etc.

Ink Monkeys are fanfiction writers and everything they touched in 2e shows it.

>>98877145
>Ink Monkeys are fanfiction writers and everything they touched in 2e shows it.

THIS.

>>98877145
Summoned demons starting to cross Cecelyne five days before their summoning was mentioned in 1E, in Games of Divinity.

>>98877210
I think the idea is that while the "cross five days before summoning" existed it wasn't taken to the absolute logical extreme that it is in 2e. It wasn't super detailed and there were clear exceptions.

If we're talking lore the things I think are really dumb are the shinma(super-duper fate) and Sacheverall(super-duper Yozi). You just don't need super versions of these things. It feels silly to me. It's like you look at CHIM in the Elder Scrolls and instead of thinking it's silly bullshit that distracts from the important stuff(where chairs are put) you write a three page essay on it.

>>98877238
>shinma
Do you mean samsara? That's the super-fate. Shinma are just embodiments of basic concepts like "things exist" or "things are separate from each other".

>>98877305
I guess both. I like the whole destiny/fate thing more. The primordials made these things, you don't need stuff that comes "before". This is a very me thing.

It's crazy that no one gets to have weird effects because only sidereals are allowed to have them.

>>98877322
Primordials obviously don't precede the cpncepts of existenxe, separation, identity and so on. They're makers of Creation, not of everything.

>>98877334
>Primordials obviously don't precede the cpncepts of existenxe, separation, identity and so on.
I don't know if that's necessarily obvious. They could easily have been set as the originators of those things. There was nothing stopping the writers saying that the Ebon Dragon coming into existence caused separation to exist instead of creating the shinma as an alternative pre-Primordial primordial being.

>>98877392
>>98877334
enitrely apart from whether or not this is obvious, the entire metaphysics of exalted is a ladder of things that are greater than other things but still get wrecked by their lessers, so just ranomly having a top of the ladder wouldn't work

>>98877238
>It's like you look at CHIM in the Elder Scrolls and instead of thinking it's silly bullshit that distracts from the important stuff(where chairs are put) you write a three page essay on it.
In exalted case it would be more "try to outdo MK, but stumbling hard", they even missed basic level Elder Scroll deepest lore, such as "when you define what something "is", you also define what it "is not".

>>98877325
Infernals had them in 2e, the problem is that most splats were designed as stat sticks, and breaking them away from this paradigm was/is controversial.
A notorious example is that it was controversial for solars to have powers over sunlight.

>>98877500
I thought that was mostly a fixation of the previous devs they wanted things to stay grounded and realistic or something like that.
Ergo why Solars have to follow the rules of physics when doing feats of strength, like, no lifting a building because it falls apart and you just rip a chunk of it.

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If I understand correctly this is the virtue for crazy hedonistic characters in essence right?

>>98877392
Yeah, I just think it's neater if the things called Primordials really are the 'first things' and that existence was defined by them. The whole "No, there are even more primordial primordals called samsara and they're all esoteric and can't actually be killed" just comes across as subversion for the sake of subversion. It was a big thing at the time but now we don't really need it.

"No, no, see. They're not actually primordials. They're the thing that they aren't and time doesn't really apply to them the same way - wait why are you rolling your eyes? I'm super serious right now this is philosophy. They don't even think - I'm mean yes they do things and have aspects and get talked about in charms like they're aware but - stop rolling your eyes!"
>>98877433
That's lame and not very obvious.

>>98877520
The issue is pretty old, with roots in 1e.
Lunars only really had a single charm (deathly beastman transformation) which was about numbers.
Solars are saddled as supernormally strong (Chris Redfield from resident evil), not even supernatural strong like Superman.
Dragon blooded were weaker solars.
Abyssals are black Solars.
Exalts were meant to only get esoteric stuff at elderhood.
With the exception of Sidereals who got it from the get go, at elder level (SMAs) and the special permission to power creep solars.

>>98877500
"Solars shouldn't have sun powers" is a real thing people argued btw. You can still find examples and I'm sure some former devs will still double down on it.

Minds the boggle. I swear I heard people say Lunars shouldn't have moon powers or powers over the tide. Why. Use moon shit for the moon splat. Don't be dumb.

>>98877580
>"Solars shouldn't have sun powers" is a real thing people argued btw.

And they're right. Solars should just be an expression of sublime skill.

>what about Lunars
This is comparing apples to oranges.

>>98877584
>And they're right. Solars should just be an expression of sublime skill.
Also know as stat checking.

>>98877584
>This is comparing apples to oranges
Lunars also have this problem, arguably worse

>>98877588
Nah, it's called power tripping. Expression of sublime skill is vague enough that you can have the powers you like without any of the powers you think aren't cool. Man just hates the sun, not much you can do about that. Either that or someone is a big fan of Hunters.

>>98877591
I'm a simple man. I see something based on sun and moon, I expect sun and moon powers.

>>98877572
The idea that something existed before beings that first crawled out of the primal chaos is somehow subversive is one hell of a hot take. Also at least try to keep what your complaining about straight. Are you talking about the shinma or samsara? These are not the same thing.

>>98877662
Power tripping is what Getimians are doing.

>>98877677
>The idea that something existed before beings that first crawled out of the primal chaos is somehow subversive is one hell of a hot take
It is more of setting creep, capeshit is similar with its circles of "first evers"

>>98877722
It's not setting creep. Nowhere is it implied that Primordials were the absolute first thing ever, and there's no "creep" beyond the shinma.

>>98877677
They're basically the same thing.
>>98877731
It's basically setting creep.

>>98877748
This feels like bait, but guess I'll bite. How do you figure that super special predestination beyond fate is basically the same thing as concepts like existence, separation, location and so on, anon?

>>98877785
NTA, but the shinma works/comes as a pantheon of over gods.

>>98877572
>That's lame and not very obvious.
it should have been obvious to you since it's what happens on every level of metaphysics in exalted, and if you don't like it then why are you even here

>>98877826
They're not active beings with goals and agency, which would be required for them to come off as overgods.