Whats so bad about competitive gaming? At least they play the game the way it's meant to be played.
No games says what?
>>98845683>they play the game the way it's meant to be played
>>98845683The people on here think playing casually is superior because they are not competitive personality types. They claim that competitive players tie too much of their self-esteem to being able to win at a game of toy soldiers but that has nothing to do with it. Some people need to compete in order to feel anything strongly enough to enjoy it. It's the exact same rush that gamblers need. It's a completely different psychological issue than the one CAAC-fags think it is.
>>98845974>competitive personality types
>>98845978>Cherry picks and ignores the rest of the post
>>98845989don't complain about the competitive poster taking any opening necessary to win
>>98845683It's not how 40k is of was ever designed to be played.
>>98845974>It's the exact same rush that gamblers need.Higher stakes would make sense but they aren't trying to win cash prizes so IDK how many of them would fit into this category.
>>9884603340k has been designed for this since 10th or whenever exaxtly GW adopted standardized table layouts. Maybe before, but definitely since. Cope.
>>98845989If you’d ever actually played against these types you’d understand they are not competitive. They just show up with a rules exploit in mind and smugly wait to bring it up and hope to win by technicality. If they were competitors actually seeking to assert superior generalship and tactics, they wouldn’t screech at the mere mention of asymmetrical battlefield layout. But they do. They literally call it unfair. And that circles right back into the reality of these types of faggot showing up to a game event with pre-conceived victory in mind based on having “solved” or “broken” the game by hoping to invoke a rules loophole or some boring shit. Real wargamers delight in the playing the random, asymmetrical circumstances they are dealt with the resources they have.
>>98846053In my group we have the exact opposite problem. Easily 1/3rd of the players cannot be assed to read the codex of any other army than their own and then throw shit fits when something blindsides them. You can get every codex and rules update online for free if you put the bare minimum effort into it.
>>98846075At my club the grogs are the bitchiest. They don't like the constant balance updates and day 1 changes to the codex rules being posted online. They don't like the new mission types either because it's more to keep track of each turn.
>>98846044This would hurt if I cared one bit about 40k. I guess casual paypiggies just take it laying down.
>>98846121The casuals aren't the paypigs. Tournament players who need to buy an entirely new army every time the meta shifts are the paypigs.
Death to all CAACs!
>>98845683>We want the e-sport audienceDota was a mistake, turning tabletop wargame to Dota was an unforgivable mistake.
>>98845683stolen from youtube comments but whatevercurrent 40k is like smash broscomp/swear 40k is like smash bros if you turned off all items and only played on maps like final destination, theres no things there to level the playing field due to a skill difference, and not playing a meta army/list is like picking a D tier character in smashold 40k isnt like smash, its like street fighter 3 where the balance was all over the place but everyone had fun because every character had some kind of busted move i've also noticed actual competitive 40k players tend to be nicer people than sweat 40k players
>>98846978Yeah when I started playing in 4th edition my Ork choppas reduce 2+ and 3+ armour saves to 4+. Not with a stratagem, not with an ability built into the unit just any choppa on any old boy did it.Burna boys were even better. If you didn't fire them as flamers before charging they counted as power weapons with +d6 armour pen for the first turn of close combat.This helped make up for the fact the army had literally zero reliable long ranged anti-tank.
>>98845683Because Focusing on competative play is fucking BORING. Look back at editions passed and realize that everything was so much more creative and interesting and imaginative. When you you design the game to be played in a vacum you remove all of those things that make it unique and honestly cool.Just go back and crack open a copy of >7th ed planatary onslaught >Codex Demon hunters >3.5 CSM>3.0 Nids or Guard>Old chapter approved that let you make your own vehicles or your own SM Chapaters with rulesCould you break the fuck outta it? yeah but that was not the complete point, you could do it and it was memey but everyone would make their broken shit, play it once just to say they did it and then try new shit. 40k used to be a lot more about running scenarios not so much competitive balanced play. Modern 40k is boring as fuck now.
>>98846053lol lmao
>>98845683It's not bad.It's just not my thing.I prefer narrative play.
>>98847167>40k used to be a lot more about running scenarios not so much competitive balanced play.Can you point to a specific time, because I think you're really mad about edition churn. I'm pretty sure if I go back to dakka dakka or bolter & chainsword from the 2000s, people will be complaining the same complaint about 3e being more soulful and less WAAC compared to 4e, 4e being less WAAC than 5e, etc.Maybe the world you imagined existed in the 90s and 2e, but that was almost 30 years ago. It really wasn't well documented, and gen x like boomers love to bullshit and lie, so who knows.
>>98846075Yeah but the problem is that unlike editions passed you need to remember basically your entire oponants codex and their stratagem bullshit they can play at any moment. See before the introduction of stratagems, most of those were baked into the unit itself, so at hte start of a match you just had to go "Ok hey what does this unit do? and what are its special rules?" and then that was it you would know what they did. You did not need to wait for this current bullshit of "YOU ACTIVATED MY TRAP CA- i mean stratagem."Another factor i dont see brought up either is modern 40k is very cut throat and played very close to the chest. I watched this shift in my city over each edition getting worse and worse. Before 8th ed, people were generally be upfront with what their army was/waht they were bringing shit like>Hey is it cool if i Bring a LoW? >Hey anon im going to be running a heavy mech/vehicle list so make sure you bring Anti Armor>Hey im gonna be running psyker heavy just a heads up.>Is it cool if I run this FW unit?There was like a decorum that was followed before 8th, Post 8th ed though it just turned into jungle rules, you brought anything and everything available and dont reveal it until you happen to activate it.
>>988471943rd has been consistantly regarded as the most flavorful of 40k. Just go read the codex from then they let you build your own regiments, chapters, hives, all sorts of shit like that. 3.0/4.0 also had a lot more customization encouraged via chapter approved, on top of that, there was a lot more up front "Fuck you, you dont get to be TFG" that came directly from GW if there was very clear abuse of rules that were not intended. Pic related is an example of that. >Im going to mix my marks on my unit to get all the benifits>GW: HAHA no go fuck your self you do that your model is banished and removed from play.
>>98847196Stratagems and the TCG-esque combos they enabled are perhaps the first time in its history that 40k actually had a good justification for its IGOUGO turn structure. And gating them behind a resource reigns in the ceiling of deathstar units that, inasmuch as herohammer is a problem, have plagued WHF and 40k for edition after edition.If GW is going to refuse to even use alternating phases like LOTR in mainline 40k, stratagem wombo combos at least justify it - like WMH before it.
>>98847212>3rd has been consistantly regarded as the most flavorful of 40k.The dominant strategy of 3e was Rhino Rush leafblower lists with factions like BAs.
>>98847226oh i wont deny that IGOUGO is a major issue, the scale and lethality of the game has greatly surpased the IGOUGO system, this is some what remedied in 30k with the advent of reactions, but more so with the introduction of better terrain rules, playing a planet bowling ball always feels bad no matter what. My issue with the stratagems is its just another deck of bullshit i need to now remember and be aware of that my opponent could pull out any time of thier choosing, vs before it just being baked into the unit as was a constant I was aware of. It also did not help that the currency system for strats took them a few editions to get fixed so that it was not turbo abused like it was in 8th.RIP Loyal 32 and rusty 17.
>>98847241Yeah every edtiion had a bullshit build, that does not magically make 3rd ed not the most flavorful edition we had based purely on the codexes which you can go and read and see the amount of customization options given to you.
>>98845683>Whats so bad about competitive gaming?In the context of /tg/ stuff and inevitably Warhammer 40k.It is because the edition cycles that change up the rules are always happening so fast.And that the rules despite effort being put in just don't work for competitive gaming like a vidya game can work.I think it can work, but I don't think GW has it. Chess works. Tabletop games with dice probably can work but GW most likely hasn't got it yet. But they will try. And if they get it the edition will be rotated out with dumb change for the sake of change to make the previous edition not usable.
>>98847264The edition churn is a major issue, and its something that a lot of the people over at the HH side of things are nervous about as well. GW does not seem to understand that 3 years is not long enough for an edition to really be enjoyed.Minimum it takes a year just to shake out all the glaring issues and get some actual sense of balance and tuning passes thrown in, and then before the edition really gets time to simmer and be a point it can be enjoyed, it gets ripped out and redone. Personally i think the amount of people who are willing to put up with their army being completely upended in terms of what they need/can do is running very thin.
>>98847246>RIP Loyal 32 and rusty 17.Every game is going to have dominant strategies. At a certain point, you need to just enjoy a game for what it is. Based on your ability to shoot, there is an optimal numbers 3s you should shoot in basketball. Judo will always have a lot of uchimata and drop seoi specialists.Adapting to the rules of the game is just part of playing any game. Nor am I convinced that people weren't bitching about the whatever [edition's] cheese was. At least armies aren't languishing with old codices for multiple editions anymore.
>>98847281I have not illusion that there is not going to be a busted ass combo, every eiditon had its busted ass shit in one form or another, some more egregious then others. However, GW in their infinite quest to reach some sort of balanced competative game has cut their nose off to spite their face. Editions have gotten more and more milk toast and boring in terms of flavor customization and just interesting supplements all the in name of preserving this illusion of being a balanced competitive game. >Adapting to the rules of the game is just part of playing any gameSure but having those rules change every 3 years burns a lot of people out fast. I think a lot of people vastly over estimate just how many games the average person gets in a year let alone a month.
>>98847290>boring in terms of flavor customizationBlame the Chapter House ruling. They don't want to lose like that again, so everything needs to use its legally distinct name and all playable options should be on a sku they sell. You don't have to like it, but the CYA ramifications of that case were massive.>those rules change every 3 years burns a lot of people out fast.Would a 4 year cycle you can plan around make your happier? I think there is a tradeoff with accessibility, since the amount of stuff a new player needs at the end of an edition can get excessive and confusing because of errata to core rules and things of that nature. Wiping the slate clean every 3 years is what they've determined works best, and it's not an unreasonable cycle. With how old editions tend to feel around that point, and the amount of CAs and Erratas that accumulated into a barrier to entry.
>>98847196Not to mention the advent of one note armies like Knights and GSC. If I don't know ahead of time that my pickup game is going to be against either of the above there is a next to zero chance I can write a list that can handle them. I physically cannot bring every model in my Ork army to the store with me to write a list on the spot.
>>98847333>CHSChapter house has NOTHING to do with GW not making the game more flavorful/custom. They can still 100% copy right all the names of the custom terms and items and rules and part that they make, >4 year cycle Honestly? yes, very, >6 of major balance tuning and First FAQ round>6 months of new release/jountals/updates>2 years of Supplements and FAQs >1 year of simmerThat would be amazing. >>98847334Yeah thats my point, people post 7th play very close to their chest, its really weird to have seen.
>>98847348>GW not making the game more flavorful/custom.Evidently GW disagreed, and saw writing rules for sprues they don't sell or have to be kitbashed opened them up to liability they didn't want to deal with again.
>>98847372Well they stopped releasing rules for units that didn't have models because third-party companies were coming in and making those models. The Chapter House lawsuit saw an end to that.
>>98846028hehe
>>98847378>Well they stopped releasing rules for units that didn't have models because third-party companies were coming in and making those models.That's what I just said. You don't have to like it, but it was a major inflection point for the significant decrease in yourguys customization and lackadaisical attitude to what skus they wrote rules for.And for people mad about this, what did you want them to do to cover their ass instead?
>>98847403I misread what you said. I assumed you were taking the opposite position.
>>98847372>>98847378Necromunda exist and it still have rules for models that no not exist or sell.Hell not even when they try to shoot N17 in a dark corner with the FOMO bullshit of N26 they even try to pull the No models no rule stupidty.
>>98847543They tried to do that with HH and got called out hard, they tried to squat a bunch of units/models that did not have any offical kits and got called out and saw massive fan revolt. They panic added in like over 60 different units into a PDF a week post launch
>dice roll>competitive
This was seen at a GT in spain about two weeks ago btw
>>98846978More like street fighter 2 x which is so broken that you can actually win with every characters even in the worst match up because of how much you can snowball. 3rd strike has plenty of actually shitty ass characters (Alex, Remy, Sean, Twelve, Q, ) and in a game where Chun Li and Yun exist, you'd eventually want to switch your main to a character that doesn't get utterly ass blasted by those two which restricts your choice to like 8 characters out of 20.
>>98848396Assuming the juice isn't just someone's mid-battle drink, got any more shitty terrain photos? I'm saving them in a "paint your shit, don't be like these fags" style motivation folder.
>>98848396i recently did that with a choccy milk in my last game
>>98845978Why is this posted in nearly every tabletop thread? Is it the new wojack?
>>98845683Competitive play is bad and evil and mean because >It reminds me I'm a loser IRL and I have a loser mentality>It reminds me other people are better than me>It excludes me>I loseHope that explains it!
>>98846035Do you not understand how tournaments work? Like, you do grasp you are playing for prizes, thus the price of admission, right anon?
So basically there's nothing wrong with competitive play and there's a retarded false dichotomy between casual and competitive play. There's been competitive tournaments since the game started, because it's a game and so has a mechanical aspect to it. To address the primary focus of everyone's ire, tournaments have this crappy quickly made terrain for two reasons. 1; they have hundreds of people playing at an event and so they so they need a lot of it and quickly, and 2; they need something which is hard to break and easily fits into the premade game set-ups. It's cool to talk about stuff like forests or unique alien terrain but I rarely see anyone stepping up and making it, so take that as you will. Furthermore, while bespoke, carefully crafted terrain is cool, it's less cool when some retarded mongoloid breaks it during a game. The chances of this happen are pretty high if you have like 300 people. People can bitch and moan all they want about 'WAAC' mindsets but the aim of the game is to win, the goal is to have fun. People who screech about WAAC all seem to basically believe there's one form of amorphous 'narrative fixated' fun which has no interaction with the mechanics of the game except in the most remote and randomised way imaginable, which kind of defeats the purpose of it being a game. If you are cheating or being dishonest ofc you are an omega faggot but it's not like this behaviour is actually condoned by the competitive community. Even 'meta-chasing' is widely belittled as being stupid behaviour liable to see you out of pocket, since the game changes like every six months. People also frequently tend to say "Uh well the armies competitive players bring don't match the lore" and yes while stuff like Loyal 32 (which is no longer legal and hasn't been for two editions) was immensely gay, up until recently bringing like a hundred Ork Boyz was a legitimate top tier list.
>>98848726I only got this one. It was a 90€ GT, they had aos, 40k and I think TOW and that was the average state of the tables
>>98849160
The test is simple.Look upon the people who play comp.ThenLook upon the people who post casual.Decide for yourself whomst to associate with.
>>98845683If it's taking place in a competition or tournament, there's nothing wrong. If it's taking place outside of a competition or tournament, then it's not really an appreciated attitude. Particularly the ones who have zero chill or get extremely aggressive and in your face over a game. But eh. If they want to stress over games, that's on them.
>>98849227That’s the best take I’ve read so far. Fat disgusting slobs trying to win at all costs via rules lawyering and pettiness during a casual pickup up is like the surest sign that they had an absentee father
>>98849223I'm not exaggerating when I say when it comes to the people at the local club the people who play competitively all have better hygiene and better jobs than the casuals.
>>98849264What's your job anon?
>>98849307I'm a clerk at a car dealership. I do the books for the garage for parts we send and receive from other dealerships for repairs and handle payroll for the mechanics. I realize an AI could take my job so my days are numbered.
>>98849356Sucks about the AI.
>>98847910Yep, they only reason GW gets away with it in 40k is because 40kfags is infested with troonaments retards.Tournamentefags should be bully into suicide till the issue is solved.
>>98849635>Happy people having a good time?! Not on my watch!Seethe CAACfag
>>98845683The worst part of any tournament is almost always the players.
>>98849647To be perfectly fair, "the worst part of [x] are the people" is true of goddamn near everything.
>>98847334How is that even a complaint? Pickup game implies you don't know who you're playing, what they're playing, or what list they're running until you're at the store already and just running with what you've got.
>>98848396You know goddamn well if that pic was given a filter to make it look like a polaroid from the 80s and given the caption "This is what they took from you" there would be 30 replies of "SOVL.">>98849264Tournaments tend to be better about enforcing hygiene requirements.
>>98848396If you stand on the juice box, do you get plunging fire?
>>98849643>good time>troonamentBait used to be believable
>>98849721Explain why so many people are willing to spend so much money on them. I'll wait.
>>98849682I started playing in 4th. For years up until mid to late 7th I could just write a balanced list and still have a good time. Since then it has been tailored lists only if you want any chance of winning. It's literally made me stop going to the LGS looking for games. Now I just go to my area's Facebook group and a range games ahead of time which is a much bigger pain in the ass because it's working out schedules, agreeing to face each other's lists, agreeing on somewhere to play, etc.
>>98849726>popular must be good otherwise it would not be popularThere is a reason why anon call it bait.
>>98849703Well, in that specific case it was the players placing juice boxes and extra cardboard because the organizer didn't provide enough scenery. The fucker is known to be a scammer yet people keep trusting him and he keeps getting away with it. He even had issues with the police at some point.
>>98849735>Since then it has been tailored lists only if you want any chance of winning.Have you considered that there might be a skill issue? The notable exception of Knights that requires more list tailoring has never been that good.
Because it always, 100% of the time, means the game will no longer be a simulation of war. It will become a contrived mess of gamey rules meant to enforce complete symmetry and reduce interesting decisions to nothing more than mechanical calculation. In doing so, the simplicities of a wargame are sheared away into a card game like series of imaginary actions, driving up invisible point trackers in a completely meaningless struggle.
>>98849959This guy fucking gets it. Warhammer used to be a wargame, now its a board game dressed up as a wargame. Wargames are meant ot be battle simulations and playing out scinarios, the enjoyment is from playing those out.
>>98849947I disagree. One of my regular opponents bring 8 tanks in his guard list. If I don't shove as many melta weapons into my list as possible I can't win.
>>98850052>>98849947Same issue with custodes, you have to list tailor to them. and its not fun.
>>98850052Again, skill issue or playing on open tables that allow you get tabled by a leafblower list. Tank spam isn't even the strongest Guard list.
>>98850201Playing on open tables with like five pieces of area terrain. I don't have any other choice. I don't have a friend group to play with I just have pick up games at the LGS.
>>98849959>>98849997But wargaming is just baby googoo gaga puzzle solving, same as with OSR dungeon crawling 10 foot pole chest poking. You want to be the best and beat others, thats a real game.
>>98850547Like Panzer Leader?
>>98850052>>98850095Bro, your playing for points and not trying to table them strategy?
>>98850052>3rd armored company>nothing but vehicles even the troop choice is a leman russ>cheapest tanks with no upgrades>just shy of 1500 points>10 tanks, 3 of them are basilisk The removal of FoC and proper infantry rules has made this game into a total meme.
>>98854170The removal of FoC was a mistake, HH1.0 and 2.0 had it right via the RoW system.
>>98854170I agree. And some armies the troops are just so fucking useless people just don't take them anymore.
>>98847543>so everything needs to use its legally distinct name and all playable options should be on a sku they sellInterestingly The Old World went out of its way to include units that don't have model kits in the Arcane Journals, most of them are meant to be converted (e.g. Tomb Guard Chariot) but some of them like the Border Princes Brigands and Bombard for the Bretonnian Exiles variant list are basically just left up to you to figure out how you want to represent them on the table.
>>98854170Unlike today the Armoured Company/Armoured Battlegroup documentation explicitly says that they won't really work properly in a regular game of 40k and that ideally you should be working out the scenario with your opponent ahead of time.
>>98854037CAACs get an aneurism when the competitive guys tell them "I told you so" when they play on planet bowling ball, don't play for objectives, and have a bad time.
>>98854698The joke is that like half the playable roster is supposed to be played like that.Hold and get points armies>Tyranids>Orcs>Necrons>Militarium>GSC>Aeldari>Death Guard >Daemons>MechanicusKilly table armies>Tau>World Eaters>Knights>Most CSM/SM depending on chapter and shit>Orcs>Custodes>Druhkari>Votann
Terrain purists don't understand that for a vast majority of the community:Terrain making = kind of boring, time consuming, expensive, and causes clutterPlaying competitive games = easy, cheap, fast, packable, fun Those are just the facts. It's not that I don't appreciate well made terrainbut I just don't care to bother with it myself when I'm a busy adult and care more about the game than the artistry.
>>98855745We terrain purists know all that because also know the underlying, unifying truth:>the majority of people in the hobby scene are failed adults
There might be nothing on the planet more cringe inducing than the "wargames are supposed to be simulations of war" neckbeards. We get it, napoleon, you played a lot of EU3.
>>98855788Once while playing Crusader Kings 2 I got my bloodline to become King of Scotland by a generation earlier marrying my 7yo son to his 50yo great aunt.
>>98855803That's not so bad. By the times he old enough to even care about girls, she'll be dead and he can marry his 13 year old neice, completing the cycle
>>98848396SOVL
>>98846978>>98848431Both 3rd Strike and 2ST are unbalanced but 3rd is more balanced across the board thanks to parrying and 2ST has more horribly skewed matchups like Dhal vs Zangief being 9:1.
>>98848396You haven't seen someone draw the terrain areas on an acrylic cutout with a dry erase marker yet, huh?
>>98845683>We should follow in the footsteps of WarmahordesFantastic plan, let's get the mousepad "terrain" back out.
>>98845683>At least they play the game the way it's meant to be played.were there even mentioned tournaments in first editions books? I hardly recall any except painting competitions
>>98855770You are feeling in the right direction, but I think the problem is deeper than that.The longer I live, and the more hobby spaces I pass through, the more I realize that Geeks are generally just shitty people, with bad priorities, who retreat from reality because they cannot sustain themselves inside it.I do not consider myself some sort of rare exception.And being self-aware does not make one any less damned.
>>98850547>You want to be the best and beat others, thats a real game.nothing with dice rolls allows you to be your best.
>>98866776To play devil's advocate, risk management is a skill.You can never guarantee victory, but you can optimise for it.I am myself, a narrative wargamer.I like making terrain and playing with my friends.I am trying to encourage them to engage more with the roleplaying elements of commanding an army across a campaign.
>>98855745You like a lot of anons are missing the (balsa) wood for the trees. The issue isn't having unpainted balsa wood/low quality 3D prints or the LOS blocking juice box instead of some beautiful scratchbuilt expertly painted piece of terrain.It's not the build quality of the terrain pieces it's that the "competitively balanced" setups are calcified bat guano. Playing on the same evenly spread LOS blocking ruins is the gayest way of playing 40k. If you don't have a lot of time for terrain making its better to play on a well thought out, thematic and interesting board layout made of taped cardboard and stand in items on a tablecloth with books underneath for hills and the same ruins every single game. This is a major reason I've peaced out and gravitated to Epic since the old school 90s terrain rules and smaller ground scale mean it naturally gravitates into an interesting and varied battlefield that feels like well a battlefield instead of la atrocidad del 6 ruin terreno especiale
>>98845974>it’s actually about the competition>that’s why I play this incredibly low skill ceiling, rng-dependent, game that provides minimal skill expression and whose community is almost entirely casual.Maybe it’s true in a literal handful of cases, but otherwise this just reeks of cope. Some level of competitiveness is required even in the most casual of settings, but people whose main goal is competition play games geared towards that pursuit. The most competitive people in the world aren’t devoting their lives to Yahtzee.
>>98855803The most meme moment I ever had CK2 was as King of Jerusalem.It looked like I was going to lose my outer territories (Antioch, strong holdings in Egypt) to a muslim holy war and general Abbasid Aggression in the 13th century when the still expanding mongols became roman catholic saving my ass. When the game finally ended my literal crusader king ruling the entire levant looked fully mongolian from intermarriage and sunni islam was extinct.
>>98845788Whats updog?
>>988472129th ed had extremely involved custom faction rules, with more options than anything you saw in 3rd and every faction had them, not just whatever the devs favored. 10th edition got complete custom character rules for every faction, like "here's a generic body, slap shit onto it" type rules that let characters take pretty much any weapon or wargear in their faction. I think there was something similar in 9th or 8th in chapter approved, but I don't recall the details. The 10th ed system is pretty nice and we've been using it for our narrative campaigns.
>>98867174How is it simultaneously true that 10th edition allegedly had great chatacter customisation but it made several of.my models illegal for WYSIWYG because 10th did not support the same load outs from prior editions
>>98867207Because the custom character system is separated from the codexes.
>>98867133>The most competitive people in the world aren’t devoting their lives to Yahtzee.That's an absurd take though, because it would require you to establish an objective metric for the world's most competitive pursuit
>>98867233Which is a longwinded way of saying it's something nobody actually fucking used and most didn't even know about. Traits and Doctrines were right there in the fucking army list, along with the ability to take items from an expansive armoury even on basic bitch unit leaders, and actual choices in squad loadouts that had tradeoffs.I know you Nuhammer Nancies would literally rather suck a turd directly from James' butthole than admit you play slop for dimwits, but come off it pal, nobody is going to buy your bullshit attempt to pretend modern 40K is ACKSHULEE totes way more fluffy and customisable than smelly old warhammer was. You're like a drunk trying to explain to a copper that in fact you aren't the one who took a shit on the local chippie counter, but all anyone looking at you sees is a mumbling fuckwit that stinks of shit.
>>98867308no it wouldnt, youre just being autistic.>oh man, but enjoyment cant be quantified perfectly... so while it really feels like i enjoy pizza more than stale bread... the bread is enjoyable on some level... how could I EVER compare these two things?!?No one gives a shit about yahtzee for the reasons i mentioned in my first post. The gambling comparison also shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the thrill of competition, and makes me seriously question if youre competitive at all.. or really thought this through. Competition is about meeting an equal on even ground and coming out ahead. Its living up to a challenge, randomness plays no part (and is often referred to as obscuring or tainting the pureness of the competition). Read "How Tracy Chapman broke my heart" or Dan Gables book and stop smelling your own farts.
>>98867485>actual choices in squad loadouts that had tradeoffslollmaoThe number of basic bitch 5 naked tactical marine squads I've seen. Oh wait, those just got swapped out for scouts because scouts were the cheapest troops you could take.Also>Traits and Doctrines were right there in the fucking army listIf you happened to be playing the correct army. If you played nids or deldar or something you were shit out of luck for that sort of thing. Even CSM didn't have any custom army rules, they were very much locked into the nine legions (and Black Legion's only rule was that they could take Abaddon, they had literally nothing else). In 9th every army got custom faction rules.
>>98867174>muh 9thAnon clearly hasn't read the good books from 3rd ed.>10th had complete custom character rulesAt least make up bullshit about an edition half the board hasn't played.
>>98867587The hell are you talking about?Chaos marines allowed you to make schizo levels of customization with its units. >The number of basic bitch 5 naked tactical marine squads I've seen. Oh wait, those just got swapped out for scouts because scouts were the cheapest troops you could takeAh if you are not using the tools no wonder you find the basic bitch options of 9th good. Specially if you ignore that you only had like 5 usable options. Mind you I said usable not good
>>98867729You said, and I quote "actual choices in squad loadouts that had tradeoffs."This is false. There weren't any goddamn tradeoffs or actual choices. You never gave tactical marines anything because spending points on them was a waste. Taking multi-melta on your devastator squad was an absurd trap 'option'. You 'could' take assault marines without jump packs, but lol lmao. And so on.>Chaos marines allowed you to make schizo levels of customization with its units.But not the subfactions. The CSM 3.5 codex has rules for the nine legions (kind of, as noted black legion didn't really get any), but you can't customize them at all and god forbid trying to play non-legion CSM forces. I would definitely say my Iron Warriors force feels a lot fluffier when I use the Fellhammer Siege-host rules in 10th (which has a ton of IW flavor and perfectly encapsulates their grindy, attrition-based style of fighting) than I ever could with the 3.5 codex, which I do own and did use. The only thing for IW in that book is that you get to spam obliterators (and I guess siege specialists veterancy for free, which sounds cool at first glance but a +1 to pen buildings is... less than exciting. Much like a lot of stuff in the codex!), which was broken as fuck but absurdly lame compared to what they've had in 9th and 10th.
>>98867696>At least make up bullshit about an edition half the board hasn't played.It technically did. You just couldn't use them.
>>98867802>But not the subfactionsStop reading there. If you do not understand why maybe wargames are not for you and Catan would be more suited for you
>>98845683Competitive gaming is an infestation of esports horseshit from videogames corrupting what is supposed to be an enthusiast hobby. It is inherently degenerate and the people that engage in it are subhuman beasts.
>>98867855Show me the options to customize my own subfactions in the 3.5 csm book, anon. Rules that I can take that affect the whole or most of my army, like the doctrines in the guard codex or chapter rules in the marine codex.I wanna play 4th edition with a csm force of piratical raiders who only recently went traitor, a staple of CSM lore. Go ahead. Show me the rules for that. There are rules to represent such a force in 10th edition.>b-but you can customize your units and use that to represent that forceYou can do that in modern 40k too, and better. I'd say having a dedicated character and unit of pirate csm and taking plenty of those, along with detachment rules focused on raiding and moving fast represents such a force much better than "my basic dudes have move through cover and I don't take daemon units" would, which is all the vaunted 3.5 codex can muster.
>>98867827May as well say every edition had custom character rules then. After all, anyone with 2 brain cells can write a stat sheet and ask their friends if they can use their OC. Pretty sure crusade characters were available all the way back to 8th. They just were never legal, had no points costs, and you literally couldn't use them because most people played tournament rulesets and getting free upgrades and special abilities was obviously bullshit.Battletech has rules for making custom units. 40k does not.
>>98867891teegee has a large concentration of guardfags who think their incredibly customizable 4e codex was the norm even though they mostly started playing after 4e. But even then, "woo, you can give your guys carapace armor and turn them into worse Fire Warriors or make them feudal worders with pistol+ccw and make them worse gaunts" weren't that common practice. Dudes weren't giving all their veteran sergeants storm bolters and bionics all that often which is why those options got canned in 5e in favor of the Order system that defined their faction identity to a far greater extent.
>>98867696Crucible of Champions was a thing! That most playgroups immediately banned because it wasn’t “balanced”.
>>98867985I recall during the 3.5 guard codex. Running the 4+/6+++ meme guard army. I know because I got trolled more than once with my BT when a random guardsmen survive a power weapon hit and that I actually needed something else beside boltguns to delete guard units.
>>98867891>You can do that in modern 40k too, and better.Bait used to be believable GSC alone that only had a meme citadel journal codex had a bunch of different way to play the army. Is not my fault your group are waacfags that hate fun
