>>98877887
Now that I think of it, DE is as close as we'll ever get to mage (marauder) game.

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Shark here. Today's game was quite uneventful.
Basically three things happened (I'm keeping it short but I don't have anything interesting to add):

>Emil, the Nazi hunter who partnered up with vampires to steal their powers had us visit the nazi laboratories. They were showing prototypes of weapons for the incoming war, and to take out night folks. Basically an unspoken way of saying that the army could annihilate the sabbat if we intend to betray them. Me and Catalina (alongside other sabbat vamps) were asked to show our powers in front of the scientists Catalina had nothing to hide since Emil saw it all already. The other vamps outright lied because they were all horrified when they saw the Schwerer Gustav. A weapon capable of utterly destroying any elder at the command of a single human. Shark just shapeshift one of their arm into crinos form, because the other powers they either intend to keep them secret or would require killing everyone in the facility.

>The Giovanni have called a personal Blood Hunt on Catalina for killing one of their own. An elder piloting a ghoul even made a visit and also sent a letter (from the black hand) to make it official.

>We got a summary of the next steps of Rasputin and Anubis' plan. We first intend to eradicate the Tremere in Vienna, because they probably will snoop into our plans and snitch to the Camarilla. We will also deal with the Brujah Council. Work out a cease fire or something. Then we will "convince" the disparate conglomerations of princes in Eastern Europe to join the Sabbat. After all of this is done we will invade Poland because the weakest EU prince resides there, and this will send a message of Sabbat supremacy. Afterwards we will turn our attention to crushing the courts of France and England.

Also
>Emil has "requisitioned" Mathilda. Basically gonna use her to capture jews
>Catalina wants to take the mantle of Defiler, so she's starting her own cult of debauchery

>be me, seneschal for the local prince
>the prince shows up in a goddamn clown costume because its halloween
>some mutt went on a rampage through the trainyard and then china town (this is very bad)
>prince orders the local lupines to be brought before him in his penthouse office
>orders the sheriff to deliver the message to them
>the elder lupine is brought up with some other guy and they are both shit-faced drunk
>the lupines claim that it isn't one of theres
>they argue with the prince who is still in his goddamn clown costume over the extradition of the mutt
>the sheriff shows up with some hobo
>the lupines don't know who he is
>turns out its some newly changed mutt
>the prince lets them go
>clownface.jpg

>>98878175
Gotta start castrating those dogs, bro.

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>>98877887
I would rather not start the thread with ERP bullshittery. I have enough drafts of my "dream games" I need to finish as solo games.

>>98878175
i mean if your camarilla court and the local sept are on this good terms you probably should let some newly turned idiot go because it means you can use that when a vampire screw up because of frenzy

>TQ
Maybe a zoo game, if Curseborne was good and spooky?

So I’ve heard that V6 allows for Tremere to choose between Blood Sorcery and Necromancy. Can anyone confirm?

>>98878295
it was in the playtest yes, if this stays in the next playlist we don't know

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>>98878295
this is in the playtest, but neither the tremere, blood sorcery nor necromancy are in the playtest

>>TQ
I'd love to play in a mixed-splat CofD chronical in which we play children trapped in some strange alternate world on the ilk of Little Nightmares or the like.

>>98877739
I imagine there'd be a lot of demand for the Iconnu's "delete anything more advanced than bronze" ritual for havens.

>>98878290
or maybe like a zoo except it's for mortals like a kinfolk, a blood doll, a hedge mage and whatever in the same crew

How did a bunch of dirty Italians become associated with Necromancy?

>>98878573
EYYYY OHHHH I'M DIABLERIZIN' AN ANTEDILUVIAN OVA 'ERE

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>>98878573
Latinos invented Santa Muerte, it makes perfect sense

>>98878573
Have you ever been to Venice?
It's pretty small and sometimes you just want to fuck something different.

>>98878573
giovanni are from a old pluto cult and been necromancers for a millenia before they became vampires

>>98878573
acording to dark age mage the giovanni and rossellini are both somehow related to the celestial chorus in the area

and cappadocious choose them out of all the necromancers (and they are seemingly a lot of necromancer families given that the giovanni are still finding new ones) because they are so awful people which made them perfect pawns to genocide his own clan for his quest for godhood

>>98878598
>necromancers for a millennium before they became vampires
Wait
Was Tremere copying Giovanni?

>>98878637
Although augustus been a vampire for 15 years longer than the og tremere. No as far as we know they didn't knew about each other or had any contact*. the giovanni also planned to become vampires as they been necromancy only hedgemages and saw vampirism as a update unlike the tremere who became vampires by accident

the truth is that augustus used to be a legit antedeluvian at the start of the game and clan giovanni been the clan of death since the first city, but that was stupid and nobody cared about the giovanni so they decided to retcon that at the end of 2e, but apparently they couldn't think of giving the giovanni a backstory that isn't very similair to the tremere so now we just have two clan of former "spell casters" turned vampires usurpers

*ars magica also had tremere be from a pluto cult, but then ars magica tremere are also the necromancer house something that is completely gone in wod (unless you count v6) and the giovanni are not mentioned at all in ars magia so you could argue that the two used to be a single character before vtm 2e

>>98878314
>>98878357

I have a Tremere who was born as a member of the Dunsirn family in Atlanta, so the fact he isn’t Hecata is a big part of his drama.

>>98878685
Actually the Nagaraja are also former mages.

>>98878271
no, the sheriff threatened war and the garou were already too busy dealing with the local pentex subsidiary

>>98878737
yeah but not usurpers they didnt manage to get clan status despite having what could be 3 antes in the basement

>>98878577
HIS BLOOD FELL FROM A TRUCK DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT

>>98877887
game in a rapture like setting (maybe even just rapture) but a few supernaturals have gotten in

either as a zoo politics game with very limited numbers or as a htv game

So continue from next thread

>setting up a one shot where most characters are werewolves, but got nabbed after their first change and pumped full of drugs for a bit and told they are schizos while being studied at a creepy facility
>word somehow gets out about this and a Garou Theurge (the PC who knows the most) is sent in to assess and get them out.
>BSDs may somehow learn at the same time and want to grab victims to become more BSDs.

So I'm thinking for newer players, what will be more fun - breaking out directly, or doing it the Spirit Realm way? Or a mix of both? Since I'm a bit new at Werewolf, what are some fun creepy scenes or scenarios? What are appropriate enemy groups for new werewolves?

tl;dr whats some fun creepy shit werewolves might have to deal with

>>98879007
>So I'm thinking for newer players, what will be more fun - breaking out directly, or doing it the Spirit Realm way? Or a mix of both?
this is a ttrpg, prepare for both and the ability to jump between the paths.
>>98879007
>What are appropriate enemy groups for new werewolves?
Fomori in the physical and weak banes in the Umbra.Careful about multiple Spiraldancers, they're dangerous, which I shouldn't need to tell you since they are literally just evil Garou but more experienced than your pack.

>>98878573
>How did a bunch of dirty Italians become associated with Necromancy?
Because no one gave enough of a shit to give them anything else.

How to sacrifice humans to Gaia?

>>98879275
rite of feeding the land

>>98879275
There's probably some pretty strong spirits that would accept human sacrifice as chiminage

>>98879275
minotaur is allegedly not wyrmish so how about you build a labyrinth and maul people in it?

>>98879160

Because rigatoni fetachune.

Are any of the novels good?

>>98879275
verbena are not nephandi-tainted I swear guys

>Somehow singlehandedly resolve the war against the wyrm
>Get all three of the cunts together to agree to let some humans access gifts
>They say you're allowed to go past level 1 gifts, but only if you glaze Mages or Garou hard enough for each rank past 1
ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL HOLOCAUST NOW. Unfortunately on hiatus until I've given oral to either 50 Garou or One Garou 50 times as chiminage.
Repost but I thought it was funny

>>98879618
>Unfortunately on hiatus until I've given oral to either 50 Garou or One Garou 50 times as chiminage.
this is also a verbena post

>>98877887
>TQ
I've come to realize that unfortunately, my dream game is one which I am simultaneously the one running it, and the one playing in it, but those two versions of me can't communicate with each other and spoil the other's fun. It's not even that I hate my group, far from it, I think they're a wonderful group, easily top 10th percentile of groups in the world. But I'm very autistic and perfectionist, so my perfect game is hyper-specific and I'm pretty sure only I would enjoy it. And that's really not what TTRPGs are about.

More realistically? As ST, my dream WoD game is probably a long-running Hunter: the Vigil game that starts in the very early 90s and goes for at least the entire decade (in-game), if not several. Watching the Hunters grow from rookies to grizzled veterans in a monster of the week adventure with occasional major plot arcs.

As a player? I honestly just wanna reprise the Ventrue I played in my first actual long-term VTM/VTR hybrid game.

>>98877887
>TQ

I am of the opinion that the Brujah are the vampire clan that is closest to actually being human still, and would be making a character who maintains a high humanity without being a christ-cuck about it.

She is going to play these silly undead vampire games, but she isn't going to attack people in alleyways just because she is hungry when there are alternatives.

She is going to get into bloody fights with members of her clan and members of others for the sake of maintaining a healthy level of respect amongst her peers, but she isn't going to harm kill or steal from mortals simply because that is expedient.

She will follow vampire laws because they suit her, but won't give into their depravities. She lives forever because she has to, but she will dance and enjoy those nights because she has the warmth of life still within her. She is a vampire, not a cold dead thing.
Then she will die, because life as a vampire is a life where actually having standards and feeling passions transcending the selfish concerns of delusional self importance is one where your very existence is profoundly offensive to those vampires that didn't choose to be dead and made up a billion excuses to be cold while they were at it.

There simply are not enough stories of the tragedy of a vampire trying to have a high humanity in games. Too many vampire players that ive run into just love being Diplomacy-pilled social manipulators or grotesque horror-movie villians.

>>98879646
>I've come to realize that unfortunately, my dream game is one which I am simultaneously the one running it, and the one playing in it, but those two versions of me can't communicate with each other and spoil the other's fun.
anon this isn't very profound, this is more or less what everybody thinks. You are essentially saying "I wish the ST would have my exact tastes and sensibilities and would surprise me with the exact themes, situations and characters which I love."

>>98879722
I'm not trying to be profound, I'm just being honest.

>>98879513
Tick attempted to trick Minotaur into falling to the Wyrm by taking advantage of the sympathetic connection between the Minotaur's Labyrinth and the Wyrm's Labyrinth

Okay, this is a weird question, but is there maybe a devotion of both Obfuscate and Demenation (or I dunno, maybe Dominate) that makes you look supernaturally intimidating? Maybe like someone or something the victim is afraid of?

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>>98879985
That fiend !

>>98877161
Can Predator Kings eat pizza? Burgers? Tacos?

>>98880150
I think yes, but it has to be prepared by another Uratha. Or maybe a Wolf-Blooded?

>>98878573
Have you seen what the roman catholics do with their dead saints?

>>98878634
Besides Saulot sacrificing the Salubri to prep up the tremmies, what other instances of antes fucking up their own clans are there?

>>98879646
>I've come to realize that unfortunately, my dream game is one which I am simultaneously the one running it, and the one playing in it, but those two versions of me can't communicate with each other and spoil the other's fun.
malkavian detected
>>98880150
idk from which manual but there was black and white drawing, I assume it was from owod, of a pair of wolves eating a burger and fries on some street while a bum flips them off

>>98880300
I had to look this up, but the Predator Kings have a ban on anything human-made.
Which makes me wonder how they get pants and shoes.

>>98880360
Supernatural stylists, or fast fashion, nobody remains human while working in fast fashion.
This reminds me of Tzimisce who look like they're wearing clothes... but aren't.

>>98880360
Everything they wear is made of roughspun cloth and rawhide leather that they've made themselves.

>>98878577
Kek

>>98880032
That's just shadow play and dread gaze.

>>98880577
Tzimisce have their discipline and everything besides that is forgettable as shit even if would complement them. Example, Auspex could allow them to shape the astral plane and how to replicate their abilities on earth but that would require someone to WRITE ANYTHING ABOUT THE ONE SUPERNATURAL FUCKING REALM VAMPIRES CAN ACCESS FOR FUCK SAKE.

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>>98880369
:DDddd

>>98880667
Do we even have an example of one of the Tzimisce that's used their Auspex trick to fully merge with the land for good and become a guardian spirit?

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>>98880698
What makes you think WW would bother with that?

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>read and play MtA for a few years
>terrible sphere bloat, slavish adherence to other splats, classic spells need multiple spheres
>read MtAW for a month
>dripless lore, moderately more comprehensible than ascension, less powerful than MtA
>read DA:M for a day
>mostly great factions, brilliant and comprehensible magic system, classic effects no longer need 2 different spheres, only minor interbalance concerns

Can m6 or whatever just use the F/P system? Literally rapes both sphere systems and in the case of Ascension makes paradigm way more important and in your face.

Also will a DA:M player's mind be totally blown if I read the latest Ars Magica?

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After learning about the history of the Texan petrochemical industry, I am convinced that the Garou Nation's crusade against the despoilers of Gaia is fully justified. If anything, the World of Darkness is not nearly as wicked as our own.

>>98881026
Every time someone sucks the dick of the Pillars system, I feel compelled to remind them that the strength of Pillars is also the weakness of that system.
It might be far more specific and tailored for specific flavours of magic instead of being an awkward one-size-fits-all system, but that means that if you want to play a character whose magic isn't covered by one of the existing Pillars, your table needs to invent a whole new Pillar to cover that character's magic, whereas any character can be slotted into the Sphere or Arcana systems because of how broad and non-specific they're designed to be.
Also, Mage the Awakening is absolutely as powerful as Mage the Ascension if not more, especially the second edition.

>>98881061
How bad is it?

>>98881061
>If anything, the World of Darkness is not nearly as wicked as our own.
The World of Darkness is our own world but darker by definition. If you've found something that exists in our own world that the lore-as-written doesn't cover, you should assume that the thing in question still exists in WoD and that it's probably even worse.
Just because WoD's lore doesn't talk about Epstein's pedophile ring that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in WoD and that WoD is a sunny, rosy place where pedophilia isn't real. In fact, WoD Epstein probably did even nastier shit, because WoD is our world but darker and with supernatural shit.

Smug posturing about how the World of Darkness is a hundred times brighter and nicer than the real world ignores the entire conceit and intention that the World of Darkness is definitionally a darker reflection of the real world.

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>>98881084
The real-life version of Pentex sent a helicopter to a trailer park to shoot up a protester's home. Bear in mind, the protester in question was a mother on a hunger strike, not an Uncle Ted sort. Thankfully, only the family dog was injured.

>>98881092
Nice try, Nephandi.

>>98881128
What makes you think the fictional version of Pentex wouldn't stoop that low?

>>98881092
most people saying this probably understand this but god does it make me groan

>>98881128
>sent a helicopter to a trailer park to shoot up a protester's home. Bear in mind, the protester in question was a mother on a hunger strike, not an Uncle Ted sort.
Why? I'm serious, what's that supposed to accomplish?

>>98881092
It's more about how despite the writers best efforts, real life comes across as more fucked up.

Do supernatural friends/associates also fall under allies/contacs?

>>98881080
The strength of Spheres in MtA being omni applicable is a greater weakness than than Pillars being limited. Necromancy in MtA is like 3 different fucking spheres and if you want to use ghosts as well you need a 4th sphere. Entire character concepts are locked away at high combinations of spheres and this is WITHOUT taking into account m20 sphere bloat.
>Whose magic isn't covered by one of the existing Pillars
In a world where Pillars overtook Spheres, this basically wouldn't be a problem, there would be enough word count and added depth to make people actually give a fuck about a given Tradition or Craft's paradigm beyond the stereotype.

It would also fix all the retarded character concepts of "muscle wizards" or other bizarre paradigms that stemmed from m20

>Also, Mage the Awakening is absolutely as powerful as Mage the Ascension if not more, especially the second edition.
Archmastery maybe, but they're limited to creating Rank 2 beings in 2e as an example kek. Can't make souls. Even Mummies and Changelings get better shit than that.

>>98881026
Even DaveB thinks DA:M is a better magic game than Awakening or Ascension. He invented the system.

still thinks ars magica is better.

>>98881193
Those are more often than not a separate merit you stack on top of whatever else. Stuff along the lines of
>Odd Friend (3 dots)
>You have made friends with another supernatural but you do not get to rely on them as an ally or contact.

For some reason you there only place that spells out that you can stack multiple merits to represent a single thing is mage, so expect some fuckery and discussion at the table, just suggest adjusting the cost to fit how powerful they are and you should be fine.

>>98881215
Sphere bloat isn't the fault of the Sphere system itself, it's a problem with an interpretation of the system by the writers. Someone else could write a version of Mage the Ascension using Spheres without the bloat, it isn't inherent to the system.
Pillars are better in an ideal world that has a Pillar for every single possible paradigm, but that doesn't exist. On a homebrew level, it's easier to glance at a single spell and decide what Spheres are required to cast it, than it is to construct a Pillar for a unique paradigm in order to determine what spells a mage of that paradigm is capable of.
>It would also fix all the retarded character concepts of "muscle wizards" or other bizarre paradigms that stemmed from m20
There's an entire Tradition which martial arts wizardry is extremely important to and that Tradition wasn't invented by M20, it's also a Tradition that isn't covered by any of the Pillars and would require entirely new Pillars to represent. Meanwhile, whenever you want your mage to cast a spell that isn't represented by the books, you can just ask your ST and they can just spitball the Spheres required using their own judgement.
I'll take a flexible low-on-flavour system that some writers interpret in retarded ways, over a rigid system with a limited number of high-flavour options that can also be interpreted in retarded ways by the writers. There's nothing stopping the writers from making retarded Pillars, some of which are more powerful than others or lack obvious spells which they should 100% have.
>make people actually give a fuck about a given Tradition or Craft's paradigm beyond the stereotype
If players are incapable of generating their own flavour and need prepackaged Pillars in order to roleplay out how their characters cast magic and can't impose limits on their characters without rules telling them to do so, that's a them problem. Spheres trust that players are able to bring their own sauce to the table.

Just how sensitive to vitae are woofs, anyway? I've been floating vaguely the idea (inspired by a movie I saw recently) of a cult that slips people heavily diluted blood from a sleeping methuselah. Would woofs sniff that out instantly or would they actually have to investigate?

>>98881092

So I'm guessing in WoD the Black Furies got Epstein?

>>98881061
Man, why didn't I think of that? I would be on the board by now. Oh well, back to data centers.

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>>98881092
>WoD's lore doesn't talk about Epstein's pedophile ring
What do you think the Seventh Generation was based on?

>>98881307
There's no official rules for werewolves being able to differentiate between blood and vitae. Maybe if they roll enough successes on a Primal Urge roll, you could allow them to do so. You could also allow Scent of the True Form to distinguish between blood and vitae, maybe.

https://www.wyrmfoe.com/189/scent-of-the-true-form/

>>98881307
>Just how sensitive to vitae are woofs, anyway?
most of them puke it out if they drink it but that's it

> heavily diluted blood from a sleeping methuselah. Would woofs sniff that out instantly or would they actually have to investigate?
they would need to use the sense wyrm gift to even notice anything wrong with the ghouls and even then sense wyrm does not seperate between a guy who worked 9 to 5 in a factory, a fomori prince or a vampire of any age (it cares for your humanity rating being below 7 and nothing else) it only tells you that there is something wyrm tainted and werewolf players are told to be careful of false positives because they are very common

there are of course some better investigation gifts, but those are rarer and if you are asking base template then the answer is not at all ghouls smell like humans

>>98881191
That's because real life is more impactful to us, by and large. For a grounded human who is attached to the real world, every real tragedy will always hit much harder than a fictional one. Someone who cries over a fictional death but has no strong feelings about a real one is unmoored from the real world.

>>98881357
he is asking about ghouls those are covered if you have 4 successes

>>98881357
interesting that they made a wa20 gift that mentiones the two revised splats. v20 and c20 ignores that imbued exists but has their generic demons named after dtf ones while m20, wo20 ignores that both exist entirely

Does anyone have any favourite Werewolf one shots, either official or fan created? I want to check some out to see how they're put together.

>>98881449
Technically only WtA adjacent, but, IMO the St. Claire Contract is the best one shot WW ever put out.

>>98880698
Yes, but with Koldunism, Spirits. Also she's a gigantic spider.

>>98881092
Old WoD would just blatantly say "There's orders of magnitude more child abuse and child porn happening here and guys thinking they're doing good are 100% complicit in it." where as nu-WoD is trying to do mental gymnastics about how the scientific institutions have nothing to do with anything bad happening (to own the anti-vaxxers). It also alleviates any reflection of one's own beliefs when everything bad that's happening is because of cartoon villains, rather than retarded nepo babies and an ethno-religion who fundamentally have the same mechanism of determining "good" as you do.

>>98881478
>when the garou are so cool they had to constantly add warnings in the book to tell the st to not let them overshadow the plot about normal human glowie pcs and project twilight

>>98881402
Shit is inconsistent and I doubt anyone in the writing team cares enough to keep that shit consistent.
Also who the fuck uses the Imbued?

>>98881296
Sphere bloat is basically just going to happen because of the nature of how the spheres are written. That it can get worse because of writers doesn't mean that high XP costs for otherwise basic effects aren't intrinsic to the system. I don't really care that it's easier to homebrew a new Tradition/Craft if the base system has to be shit and broad to accommodate that.
>There's an entire Tradition which martial arts wizardry is extremely important to
Muscle wizard is not Akashic brotherhood, it's when some guy has a character concept like "my paradigm is strength and i do all my effects because i am strong :D" or "i think im in the truman show!", basic dripless paradigms that are almost marauder tier in simplicity made worse by m20's explicit inclusion of it. Anything that discourages that is great.
It's also not a leviathan effort to make an Akashic Brotherhood F/P and would be infinitely better than the sphere system for all purposes.
>muh roleplay rollplay
No one said it's impossible to have flavour with spheres, it's just the F/P system is way better. We're playing roleplaying GAMES after all, so a system that gives actual weight to paradigm is great. Ascension has had decades to try and meaningfully integrate paradigm into the game fantasy that the game delivers and has mostly failed miserably.

no response for necromancy requiring up to 4 different spheres as well kek. I wouldn't respond to that either.

>>98880667
Honestly? One of the reasons I enjoy VTM is that it doesn't spend most of its time in alternate dimensions. Because it's so focused on the real, material world you have to consider material circumstances and logistics. It makes keeping the Masquerade relevant, and in my experience, restrictions breed creativity.

I think most other oWoD lines use the Umbra as a massive crutch, both to bypass any practical considerations with keeping the setting secret and plausible, and to serve as a dumping ground for any and all out-there ideas a writer has. It's so broad that it's everything and nothing all at once, so I've never been able to get into those games. I think it being so prominent and all-encompassing defeats the point of having a "real world" urban fantasy setting.

>>98881655
-shrugs- sometimes they are fun especially when your players don't know what imbued are

>>98881708
>no response for necromancy requiring up to 4 different spheres as well kek. I wouldn't respond to that either.
If you want to cover every possible concept related to necromancy, then no shit that'll take a lot of Spheres. if you just wanna fuck with ghosts and raise corpses as your servants, then Spirit alone can cover that.

Alternatively, just make it a Minor Sphere.

Is there a reason why the Danislavs could learn up to lvl 3 gifts while normal kinfolk can only learn lvl 1 gifts?

>>98881775
auspex helped them to find higher ranking spirits to pray tell them of their blight and enslavement to who reported that to grandfather thunder and grandfather thunder gave them a exception to fuck over the tzimisce as the shadowlords themselves already failed. you have to remember that thunder is also the totem of sneakily backstabbing shit for gaia

>A pack of Garou ventured beyond the patrols of Borgo Pass a generation later. They were appalled to uncover the disgrace inflicted on their Kinfolk. They peremptorily launched an attack on the count, but they were soundly defeated

>The father of their family often ventured into the dark woods to pray for deliverance from the cruel Tzimisce that bred his family like animals. Spirits of the night answered his call of distress. He
learned to distinguish the many occult forces waiting to aid him by means of his vampiric sight. Many had sworn fealty to an even more powerful force — Grandfather Thunder himself.

>By the mid-14th century, the Danislavs will use Thunder’s Dark Gifts to overthrow Count Florescu. The count’s mansion will be shattered by thunder and lightning from the heavens, and the Danislavs will claim his fiefdom as their own. Their triumph will be short-lived. In 1399, several Tzimisce will unite to destroy them.

>The Danislavs also have another mystic power, though it is treated as an out-of-clan Discipline for purposes of experience-point expenditure. From the servants of Grandfather Thunder, members of this family are able to learn Shadow Lord Gifts up to Level Three, though they refrain from demonstrating these abilities openly. They must learn these Gifts by making
pacts with spirits in the Umbra. Using these Gifts requires the expenditure of Blood Points in place of Gnosis. There are five Gifts listed for this tribe in Werewolf: The Apocalypse — treat each one as one level of this Discipline, in ascending order.

>>98881775
Supernatural steroids.

>>98881717
Most people who would care for the Imbued probably have seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

>>98881179
Frankly a lot of these companies were ran by petty, evil, and vindictive men at the time (still are but you can't do that without going to jail now)

>>98879686
>There simply are not enough stories of the tragedy of a vampire trying to have a high humanity in games. Too many vampire players that ive run into just love being Diplomacy-pilled social manipulators or grotesque horror-movie villians.

I get you though I disagree about the Brujah inherently being closer to Humanity. I don't think that should be a clan-based thing. but if everyone played that kind of character, it'd be as boring as a roster of 4 pathfag mass murderers for lolz. I think that there's a lot of ways to skin that cat. One of my favorite PCs of all time certainly comes off as a Diplomacy-pilled social manipulator, but there was a lot more going on under the hood. Likewise, I enjoy giving even degenerate Sabbat fuckheads an occasional reminder of what they were; what they are but ran away from.

Right now I'm playing in a game where we have a Tremere that just really wants an out of unlife that just isn't possible. Which I'm hoping will escalate to tragedy of the highest order when the shoe drops on the fact her old friend is in fact a Hunter.

>>98881895
I really need to start wyrmmaxxing

>>98881863
oh i meant more as npcs in another game given that we talked about "using them" in a wod20 game

>>98881627
Funny how the writing and the fan perception really swings from
>Damn werewolves are so cool
to
>Damn werewolves are so lame
As time went on

>>98881899
"Only way out is dead or the can" except there is no can

>>98881907
It's almost as if they are a 1 or 100 splat.

>>98881901
Wyrmmaxxing for good ala violent protestors, wyrmmaxxing for "good" ala Uncle Ted, or wyrmmaxxing for profit?

>>98881708
>it's when some guy has a character concept like "my paradigm is strength and i do all my effects because i am strong :D" or "i think im in the truman show!"
Are you some sort of pussy who doesn't know how to say no to stupid shit at your table?

>>98881738
it's like 3 similar concepts that require near mastery in a few different spheres. that's just for necromancy.

>>98881910
Yeah. She's smart enough to have kept it to herself IC, but she very clearly doesn't want to be a vampire at all. I think all the PCs in the game have some potentially excellent tragedy angles, but she's #1.

>>98881907
Garou are a very love it or hate it concept, that's why.

>>98881911
To be fair every splat is kind of a 1 or 100 splat except vampire

>>98881918
I don't let people like that near my table, I can't stop them from polluting the online sphere of discussion around the game and giving the wrong impression to prospective Mage players. Gates exist for a reason.

>>98881954
You just shut them down with:
>That's not how paradigms work, that's how Marauders work. Mages believe in a framework that allows them to cast magic that defies the status quo. They don't believe that the status quo is something that is very obviously not.
Simple as that.

>>98881965
NTA but books don't support that in the latest edition.

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>>98881995
Believing shit that obviously contradicts reality is Quiet shit, even in M20.

>>98881907
>damn werewolves are so cool only happens when its a get of fenris pack doing cool stuff instead of being about personal horror
really makes u think

>>98882058
But wasnt Get of Fenris the nazi chud tribe

>>98882065
only for w5 "fans"

>>98882073
>You play W5 because you enjoy it.
>I play W5 to shit harder on the Get.
>We are not the same.

>>98882058
What personal horror is there in Werewolf besides beating up your family and friends because they don't respect the alpha enough (you) like some weird furry meme?
>>98882065
They were until they weren't and weren't until they were again because of some muslim dude who hates whites

>>98882105
Why would you shit on the Get when 85% of their members don't survive past 25?

>>98882065
>>98882073
whilte the get are nazis is heavy subtext as to why w5 is the way it is it didn't actually make it into the book

instead they chickened out and made them all insane

>>98882125
because that's normal for the garou nation?

>>98882135
More like 35 or 30

>>98882065
>Progressives sabotaging efforts against the Wyrm to own the Nazis
Pottery and true to life.

>>98882137
fianna, shadowlords and red talons are also pulling down the average together with the get

>>98882130
>but muh wyrm
>says the second most wyrmed tribe
W5 writers thought this was good

>>98882130
>fire entire team because they wouldn't write nazi get
>don't find a replacement team willing to write nazi get
murmar more like clown more

>>98882144

I mean, Werewolf was shockingly prescient in describing how the infighting of the various groups with the most stake in fighting alt-right wyrmoids would be the biggest thing fucking them over.

>>98882111
>you must confront the fact that you are helpless and incapable of stopping or even slowing the impending apocalypse
>your rage prevents you from ever fitting into human society and finding a community where you belong outside of the garou
>you are at risk of losing control and harming the people that you love due to the supernatural anger that suffuses your very soul
>you have inherited the ultimate original sin and must bear the weight of ancestral crimes of staggering consequence
It's the personal horror of existential dread and crushing helplessness despite being the ultimate killing machine.

Vampire
>You are a monster surrounded by other monsters trying to cling onto whatever morality you still have while being forced to hurt people to survive
Wraith
>You are stuck between life and death in a miserable underworld bureaucracy with a high chance of becoming a literal magic object upon arrival
Demon
>You are a fallen angel who experienced millennia of torment forced to shift between people's souls and their memories constantly

Werewolf
>You are a wise tribal shape shifter that fights against ecological disaster represented by a giant oil corporation and servants of Satan


... I don't get it

>>98882182
and i think that's okay not every game is for everyone

>>98882125
Shits and giggles.

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>>98881916
Guess

>>98882125
to get the first number up

>>98882182

I'd hardly call your average werewolf wise. Werewolves are retards having to work together with bigger retards under the overwhelming pressure of trying to prevent everything going to shit and having barely any idea if what they're doing is working, and dying while doing so is the best case scenario next to getting corrupted.

>>98882182
Werewolf
>You are a mighty warrior fighting to save the planet who must contend with the reality that all of the strength in the world won't be able to stop the apocalypse

There, now you get it.

>>98882182
werewolf is deliberately a combat focused game so it's much more good vs evil than others

>>98882181
>1st one I wouldn't call personal horror due to scale
>2nd one is true
>3rd is kinda covered by the post
>4th seems less like personal horror and more like collective racial guilt but I suppose this is a modern perspective on it from the current white guilt narrative

>>98882195
Sidhe-cels...
>>98882204
Average nordic vampire post, said poster probably larping as Tyr in his spare time

>>98882338
I would rather work at the DMV rather than being a fairy. I just hate the Garou like any reasonable person.

>>98882182
More like you are wise (for a wolf). It's also more like you're fighting in a doomed holy war off of the promises of your ancestors while everyone on your side can neither agree nor actually take any steps to swing the tide to your favor. A lot of the horror and woe is me elements come from the chud Garou trad society, you being unreasonably violent and enraged when people don't respect the alpha wolf (you) making it difficult to keep relationships in your life, and everyone around you being encouraging you to all in on a death cult that degrades you as an individual so that you can be a better suicide bomber for allah- uh I mean Gaia.

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>>98882125
Why settle at 85 when you can reach 100?

>>98882182
This isn't anything new. People have always noticed the Wieck games cluster together thematically, as well as the Hagen 2 and kinda DTF. DTF is weird in that it's got aspects of both parts of oWoD.

But yeah, the games were designed in such a way that they would have very different themes and appeals. It's why cross-splat never became standard, and why oWoD remained in the unhappy compromise of "kind of a shared setting, kind of not". You can argue that was a stupid decision, I might even agree with you, but it was a decision made over 30 years ago.

Between oWoD and nWoD combined I can say I like, without any major caveat, 5 maybe 6 of the major splats. It also used to be pretty common for people to be chill with the idea that different splats appealed to different people, and it's fine to have your preferences and your own curated WoD.

Really I blame the wiki-diving lorefag tertiaries for this repeated confusion and frustration about how oWoD is very dissonant when combined. Everyone else figured this shit out decades ago. Play what you like, cut the rest.

>>98882330
It's personal when you were born and exist solely for the purpose of fighting an unstoppable apocalypse.
It's not identical to the horror of Vampire or Wraith, but the point is that there's still a lot of misery and suffering to be found in life as a Garou, that could be described as personal and horrific.

Speaking of Dark Ages mage....Dragons are Mages? Holy fuck.

>>98882402
Dragons are Bygones.

>>98882423
The book out and out gives them DA Spheres and then clarifies that Dragons are Mages in the fluff.

>>98882473
I must have been drunk as hell when I the Bestiary because what the fuck?

>>98882402
>>98882423
There are more than one type of dragon. There's bygones, chimera, fae lord, mage, umbrood, vampire. Dragon my nuts across your face.

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>>98882402
Aren't Dragons Tzimisce though?

>>98882484
Bygone Bestiary has a slight difference in interpretation, it's only the Dark Ages Mage book that says Greater Drakes are literally Mages.

>>98882402
>>98882423
>>98882532
wod has:
>bygone dragons
>dreaming dragons
>sin dragons (mages)
>the zmei and norse dragons (spirits)
>rabisu dragons (demons)
>two 4th gen tzimisce who have the dragon form
and i am probably forgetting something. And those are all unrelated and different kinds of dragons who exist in the same world. c20 for example mentions that sidhe knights tend to have a final bad time when they confuse a byone dragon for the weaker dreaming kind

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>>98882743
>So, you're a dragon (Tzimisce), You're a dragon (rabisu demon), you're a dragon (changeling), I'm a dragon (mage)! ARE THERE ANY OTHER DRAGONS I SHOULD KNOW ABOUT?!
>Mokole: Rawr

>>98882743
mokole and the chinese dragons who are also mages and run the chinese technocracy

every splat has a odin. every splat has a dragon and there is always a lighthouse

>>98882783
there's also incarna dragons in the east, and also separate material eastern dragons.

>>98882789
>Vampire: The Masquerade
That guy was an embraced mage or Sorcerer that replicated a lot of his old tricks.
>Werewolf: The Apocalypse
Sam Hyde before that guy was a thing. May or may not be a BDS ancestor spirit or some other nonsense.
>Mage: The Ascension
Normal mage and anyone who takes his name also loses an eye so that's neat.
>Wraith: The Oblivion
A Risen.
>Hunter: The Reckoning
That's how one of the European Hunters get their visions and messages.
>Demon: The Fallen
All gods are the Fallen unless specified otherwise.
>Kindred of the East
That guy was under the tutelage of a watcher or something along those lines, there was a whole blurb on a Viking ship trading around the world and stealing their secrets before crashing in north america.

>>98882862
odin in mage is also a godhead Incarna spirit but it's not really clear if mage odin is the same as spirit odin

what do you darknest autists think of the idea that magic is a science

I know their is a faction of mages that are science mages , and love elon muks.
but not much else.

>>98882889
You have it backwards, science is "a" magic

>>98882871
gee mage how come white wolf let's you have two odins?

>>98882889
>magic is a science
m8 that's just hermetics and solificati that's what those guys are all about

>>98882905
in real life or in the game?
>>98882898
I heard their is a mage faction that wants to get rid of magic and only have reddit atheism , but
I don't know how far that goes.

>>98881655
My PC's stalker is Imbued. Which is weird because we're playing W20.

>>98882789
That's cute, when would you like to schedule your lobotomy?

>>98882963
i am not sleeping well right now so not too early please

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>>98882918
Hermetics invented science ingame and IRL. Wizards didn't just dress up in labcoats and wait for peer reviews or nepo babies in charge of institutions to tell them what's real. Science has since been stagnated and corrupted by basedcuck redditor faggot technocrat nepobabbies. I hereby claim this thread, all threads and all willworking in the name of Hermeticism. I say this as a living god, death to all non-holistic thinking, death to false absolutes and death to basedence.

Klaives can do aggravated damage to Garou because they're silver, but the only reason they can do aggravated damage to anything else is because they're magic, right? Because silver usually doesn't hold an edge

>>98883022
>death to basedence.
whats that.

>>98883022
>basedence.
Ah, based + science. Good to see that the order of herpes is addopting newspeak.

>>98883022
>vomitinducing newspeak
Shit, no wonder Clan TUMOR spawned out of you freaks.
I hope the Eldest will make mailboxes out of you cucks.

>>98883067
You know that plant that can be made into fake meat? The one people are afraid of because it contains phytoestrogens? If you use the name of it by itself, 4chan's filters will change it to "onions," and if you try to make a compound word from it, the same filters will change it to "based."

>>98883067
soience
my roflcoper goes soisoisoisoisoisoisoisoi

>>98883039
Depends, some Klaives have like Gold in them or Iron or other metals. Iirc the reason gold works on the undead is because of sun spirits rather than because of gold itself, so I assume the reason for agg damage on everything is spirit magic mumbo jumbo.

>>98883039
klaives by default have a spirit in them, usually that of war
they don't have to be silver, because the first klaive was made from a tree spirit

>>98882743
Also Dragon the Embers

>>98883067
Lurk two centuries more neonate.

>>98883067
>>98883157
anon was ment to say so-y-ence as in so-y science.

how I was supposed to guess it was that filter anon , I know what the onions filer is , but how I am supposed to guess that when people add based as a prefix regardless.

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>the GALL of that reality deviant to cast out the spirit of illness from that terminally ill baby
>why yes, we know the treatment for that but the timetable we made with Magadon says it's not the right time

>>98881566
Actually sounds like a nice change of pace compared to flesh blobs.

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>>98883343
Experimenting on children? MECHA is too good for these freak. We'll have to kill them both now, it's the only way to stop any further contamination.

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Huh. Okay.

>>98883343
Would you have been happier if a fellow Awakened used the Spirit Sphere to call forth the spirit of the illness and then stripped it for spare Quintessence?

>>98883394
Spirits aren't real. Be normal. Stop being weird. Just be normal. There is no spirits. You are mentally ill. Maybe you should be on these drugs. Just be normal. Repeat after me: "There is no such thing as a spirit."

>>98883394
>spirit of the illness
Peak deviant delusion. Who the fuck comes up with this shit? Good thing we've phased such superstition out of people's heads.

>>98881338
>Albrecht took down WoD's Epstein
Rare Garou W

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>>98883417
>There is no such thing as a spirit.
Then why can I buy it at liquor store? Check mate.

>>98883436
>product of poland
Clearly a fake.

>>98883433
>Albrecht killed WoD's Epstein, causing a federal investigation into him and his clients to stall, leading to decades of rumors that there was a secret deal between Pentex and the King of the Garou Nation to tie up Pentex's own loose ends

>>98883558
>even when the Garou win
>they lose
Kekw. All dogs belong in silver cages

>>98883375
yeah magic isn't unqiue to humans during the mythic age because it's still part of the world or some shit like that, but then after year 1000 that started to decline and the same dragons in sorcerer crusade which is 200 years after dark age mage don't have magic anymore

>>98883558
Not to get in the way of /pol/itical commentary but wasn't the Seventh Generation stuff notable specifically because they got the whole network in WoD instead of a guy replaced in a week?

>>98883417
>Maybe you should be on these drugs
I'm getting a funnel and some mescaline, Anon, Anon, hold Anon's arms and legs.

>>98883436
>rectified
brat moonshine, needs correction

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Why do the Tremere do this? What are they gaining from such tactics?

>>98883846
Genderbending is a Tzimisce thing. Tremere's is copyright infringement and pyramid schemes.

>>98883846
Transing your herd is a great way to keep them close. There's a lot of hysteria around trans women right now and your mortals are less likely to run away if it's into the arms of other mortals who want to torture them to death.

Dracula is a fruit bat. Not many people know that.

>>98883950
tzimisce magic actually works though and isn't skin deep unlike hormones

>>98883846
same reason they figured out how to use the embrace to make people younger

insatiable thrist for knowledge caused by the loss of cosmic power

>>98883973
Do you think a guy whose goal is to torture someone to death is going to care whether or not Vicissitude or Thaumaturgy can delete a Y chromosome?

>>98883996
bet

>>98883996
i mean biothaum explictly can change someone's gender and "actual age" whatever this means on a magic level

but that's true black hand magic that tremere just bought on the black market so of course it's weird

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>>98883363
Dr. Chad, I know my appointment isnt until next week but I'm still having nightmares about the spiders wrapping me up in webbing and I still hear the rhythmic buzzing occasionally.

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>>98884079
Obviously a psychosexual fantasy that your mind has latched onto as a coping mechanism. Your mind has convinced itself it needs bondage and vibrators to releive the stress of a past experience.

Here is a local BDSM vlub and a prescription for medical grade Cocaine.

>>98884535
Is that the power of dementia?

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>>98884535
THE GOVERNMENT MANDATED GAROU BFS ARE REAL

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Every vampire feels the temptation to strike at their elders, the rewards of diablerie are so--

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>>98884647
--wait what?

I don't give a shit what ANYONE says.
Vampires and Technocracy are WEAVER!
Werewolves and Mages are WYRM!
Changelings are WYLD!
The rest I don't care about.

>>98884647
>>98884652
They really downplayed the ways out of vampire politics as the editions went on.
>>98884709
>Vampires and Technocracy are WEAVER!
Anon you could literally track how strong the Technocracy grip on a part of the Umbra was by how much of everything was covered in spiderwebs in 1e, the Technocracy are never beating the Drone allegations.

>>98884709
Maybe you could make your case for some of those.
Vampires as Weaver? Even when so many of them smell of the Wyrm?

>>98884709
What could be another Wyld, for giving all of the triat a second splat?
Wraith, maybe if they focused on haunting people like how changelings can be muses for people or reincarnation to create a new generation.
Demon, nah, that focus more on ending the world instead of creating anew.
Hunters, maybe, I kinda like keeping them true neutral as mundane humans, but I did split up the Traditions and Technocracy. Giving Wyld a group of humans could work.
Promethean could work. They're goal is to become human. Maybe a new kind of human in a new kind of world? They kind of just want to become old humans though.
Mummies are lame, I'm sorry.
Deviants, now I feel like this would be a better fit than Hunters. They are explicitly fucked up Post-Humans. Could he very X-Men or Magneto like.

>>98884709
>Vampires
>Weaver
Nuh uh

>>98884757
There's a Nagah who saw an Imbued once and became terrified that Gaia made them to replace all Fera

>>98884755
>>98884759
They're split down the middle, aren't they? They make things a very shitty version of organised and static but they do leave things static.

>>98884755
Why do they smell like the wyrm? Because the writers said they kill and so are wyrm coded? Hmm, bold claim when the garou also kill people. Vampires want humans to be their cattle. Never getting too much freedom or putting up any real resistance. Same as the other Weaver aligned creatures. The developers are just wrong and said they smell like wyrm to shut down this exact argument!

>>98884767
Garou are the Wyrm's strongest soldiers

>>98884770
Unironically
>both want to destroy the current world
>both are driven mad at being unable to do their jobs
>both have weavers

>>98884767
Vampires just start smelling like that when they have anything less than 7 Humanity. And it has to be Humanity, you can have 10 in whatever wacky Path you please and you'll smell the same as a fomor to them.

>>98884755
well vampires only trigger sense wyrm on low humanity it's just that pretty much all vampires are on below average (7) humanity

and wraiths also only trigger sense wyrm when they are on high angst

so perhaps wta tries to say that the morality meter of other games simulate wyrm taint? anyone ever try to see what happens if you clear wyrm taint from a vampire?

>>98884805
path of beast also got retconned into being excluded because gangrel garou bffs

>>98884757
>>98884812
Wraiths don't actually fall under the triat at all because they are too truely dead for that. the angst equals wyrm taint thing is only a rules patch to make garou being able to sense when they are being ridden at all and only applies in that situation

>>98884767
Spiritual corruption from dogshit humanity scores.

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>massasa war
>order of hermes doesn't somehow automatically win even during the dark ages where there's no paradox and thaumaturgy is ass

>>98884812
>anyone ever try to see what happens if you clear wyrm taint from a vampire?
There's a Rite to cleanse Wyrm taint from things. But at least in W20, if you use it on a vampire with less than 7 Humanity, you'll just cause them pain to no noticeable effect. If a vampire has 7+ Humanity they might still have Wyrm taint from biting tainted humans, in which case the rite should work normally.

Are the Mockery Breeds actually created from scratch or did Pentex find some pre-war extinct shifter DNA in amber and go all Jurassic Park?

>>98884847
The 1st masassa war unironically made more sense than the 2nd. For the 1st it was a betrayal from Tremere after like decades of planning. The 2nd was the OoH jobbing despite striking first, because Blood Treachery is a story for mages and in world of darkness the protagonist always gets their shit kicked in. Or rather it was supposed to be a stalemate of mutual annihilation but it's more like a plotpoint that exists but is rarely mentioned by literally anybody and basically completely ignored by Vampire.

>>98884847
The general theme of these stories always seems to be vampires being way tougher in text segments than gameplay while mages are way weaker in the text segments than in gameplay.

>>98884847
dark age mage spends several pages to try and explain that and all of it makes the order of hermes look worse and worse

their public relation managment is so awful that inqusitors and normies killed half of the mages send out before they ever seen a tremere and the shadow inqusition targets them before vampires

their demigod masters have their head so far up their ass that they just don't understand why arete 1 mages don't solo a cities vampire population, but also don't feel like bothering to fight themselves

said demigod leaders also for some can't imagine that they have more than one enemy so they just assume that all the hits they take from the shadow inqusition and free mansons (who they didn't even noticed exist yet) are tremere attacks so a hermetic lowtier mage who is told to kill some vampires might instead find inquisitors or other awakened mages instead

the tremere have learned so much skulldugering in the two centuries they been undead that they nearly purged the HRE of hermetics because they just didn't expect intrigue to be part of warfare at all

and of course house tytalus are releaing their own apprentices in transilvania without supplies and support to use the massasa war to... it seems just kill more of them (their apprentices) than usual

>>98884855
most of them are from scratch there weren't roach or frog shifters before and while there been one mention of indian monkey shifters i think we are meant to consider that one retconed

How do you make your Elder characters talk? I have a 500 year old prince that is distant and unknowable but I'm stuck on making his writing seem eldritch enough, since whatever he's going to say is probably going to be shit like "some tzimisce is doing massive human trafficking operations in this state"
It's early for the players to meet him in person though but I'd figure to ask

>>98885023
Look up how people spoke 500 years ago. Sprinkle in some weird grammar or sentance structure. That's what people often struggle with the most when learning new languages. Maybe throw some outdated slang every now and then. Make them feel out of place in time.

>>98884767
>clearly low humanity vampires don't count as wyrm-tainted because they are corpses that are animated by the mystical blood of the first murderer and can only survive by symbolically recreating that event by feeding on the blood of their own people and are gradually succumbing to the urge found in caine's blood that compels them to surrender to their hunger and abandon any purpose other than feasting on their own species
>they only count as wyrm-tainted because they kill lots, that's the only reason i can think of
i always find the "low humanity vampires shouldn't count as wyrm-tainted" crowd hilarious

>>98883968
He certainly is fruity.

>>98885173
personally I dislike the fact that high-humanity vampires don't count as wyrm-tainted. Bitch you're a cursed undead abomination. Maybe, MAYBE with Golconda or one of those disciplines from that one egyptian vampirehating vampire clan you can be smell free of the taint. Otherwise, you'll have to convince Garou you're actually a super friendly humanity 10 vampire(you will be slaughtered/mercy-killed)

>>98885173
>the weaver takes the raw material made by the Wyld and gives it structure
>the kindred takes humanity and turns them into structured and docile herds for easy control
>the weaver has long overstepped and outstayed it's welcome
>vampires are corpses that long outstay their welcome by overstepping into messing with God's curse on Caine
>the Weaver fights the Wyrm because it's role is to destroy the old to clear space for new growth
>the kindred constantly hinder the growth of their childe to only use them as servants for an eternally ruling elder class
>this is all coincidence and kindred are wyrm coded because Caine invented murder and his people are hungry

>>98885173
>high humanity vampires are canonically not wyrm tainted because they don't murder indiscriminately

>>98884079
An appointment with a deviant? Must be the vivisection one. Anyway, what you described may have come about as a result of spider-related trauma. Of course, it's more likely that those nightmares are simply how your psychosis manifests. We'll find out soon enough.

>>98885253
The first reason is not a behaviour that all Kindred do and it doesn't outweigh them being literal corpses animated by the very essence of murder.
The second reason is why a vampire who lives for long enough does count as Weaver-tainted, but that doesn't cancel out the Wyrm-taint, it's just another layer of taint.
The third reason is actually a compulsion caused by the blood of Caine, vampires are metaphysically driven to turn on their closest kin in monstrous ways, that's the literal source of the Jyhad. It's all a symbolic repetition of the first murder and once again, very Wyrmish.
You're talking about dead people who are animated by the curse of the first murderer, who have to suck the life out of other humans to survive, who are driven to turn on their own just like the first murderer, who are at risk of permanently losing any trace of humanity and becoming monsters that exist solely to kill and feed, and saying that they have more in common with the spirit of stagnation than the spirit of death because some of them survive for a long time and some of them do a couple of things associated with stagnation.
>>98885259
Cite a source, a Humanity 6 vampire still pings as Wyrm-tainted even if they've never murdered a single person.

>>98885302
You lose humanity by doing inhuman things, like murder. How exactly can you lose humanity without doing anything wyrm aligned?

>>98885302
>The first reason is not a behaviour that all Kindred do
Sure, just the Camarilla. The biggest organization of vampires in the world.
>animated by the very essence of murder
They're animated by God's curse and Lilith's magic. Which of those is the essence of murder?
>vampires are metaphysically driven to turn on their closest kin in monstrous ways
You know who ELSE turned on their kin in monstrous ways by imprisoning them forever to stop the fulfillment of their cosmic role? The weaver.

They are UNdead. They RESIST death as a force. They cling to life despite the universe telling them to die.

>>98885331
A freshly-made vampire PC can drop from Humanity 7 to Humanity 6 and suddenly count as Wyrm-tainted because they broke a window by throwing a stone at it, without having ever killed anyone at any point in their existence.

>>98884847
>NPC lore mages have limitations, paradigms, flaws, engage in politics
>hypothetical player mages have vague paradigms, bend the rules to do shallow power fantasies where everyone else is incompetent, the GM would be called mean if they realistically punished players
Really makes you think.

>>98885365
Breaking a window won't cost you your humanity.

>>98885386
It's intentional property damage, a Humanity 5 sin. If the vampire is intentionally breaking the window by throwing a stone at it, they are intentionally damaging a person's property, so a Storyteller is allowed to say that this has the potential to trigger degeneration and request a Conscience roll.

>>98885367
>NPC lore mages forget they don't have to attack vampires at night or that their paradigms allow for long distance nukes

>>98885400
And yet a mortal human or kinfolk can do the same without issue. Hmm.

>>98885406
Almost like high Humanity allows a vampire to ward off the innate Wyrm-taint and the Wyrm-taint doesn't just come from their deeds.

Hmm.

>>98885411
You you agree it's completely arbitrary mechanics and not backed by anything narrative.

>>98885418
What's arbitrary about a literal corpse being animated by the cursed blood of the first murderer innately carrying the taint of the spirit-god of death and incapable of hiding that taint as soon as they start losing their grip on their humanity?

Makes perfect sense to me.

>>98885426
The fact that you can't tell the difference between dead and undead, for one. The fact the only definition of "losing grip with humanity" includes the VERY human act of mild civil disobedience, for two.

why is it always non mage players who insist paradigm is this monumental limiting factor that conveniently makes it so their vamp/werewolf splat (always vamp/werewolf) doesn't get BTFO by them?

>>98885482
to be fair if you haven't read and thought about mage and only heard about it you might come to the conclusion that based on how the fluff reads and what redditors repeat Paradox and Paradigm matter. It's like being told about vampire20 and thinking that in actual gameplay humanity is this super central thing as well as scraping together vitae. When in reality both are pretty trivial.

>>98885482
Because every time we investigate we find out that mage "players" have something like "Glowing circles appear in front of me and let me do things." as their paradigm in these retarded hypotheticals.

>>98885482
The subjective reality of the WoD says the splat you're playing right now is always the weakest. Vampires are warned about werewolves. Werewolves are warned about vampires. Mages don't have this because their whole gimmick is being the only ones who know the WHOLE truth. So, it created weird assumptions about the system.

>>98885518
Mages have this for Wraiths for some reason, ever since 1e Mage hypes the fuck out of how dangerous the Dark Umbra is as if Mages don't go to the High Umbra and contend with Demon Lords and the like.

>>98885457
The fact that the corpse of a person who has been killed is animated by the cursed blood of the first murderer doesn't change the fact that the corpse is a corpse, a life that has ended. It's only able to walk and talk thanks to the most metaphysically meaningful act of destruction to ever occur, that is the sole reason why the dead thing is undead.

But you're just going to say that the murder of Abel is completely irrelevant and then have the gall to claim that I'm the arbitrary one.

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>>98884847
Hello.

>>98885514
,which is of course an entirely acceptable chaos magic-esque paradigm even if it's really more of an instrument. Just like "I will things to happen and it happens" is an acceptable paradigm. Or reality-hacking aka "I edit the sourcecode of reality and this happens now." The idea that you can not construct a fitting paradigm for a hypothetical mage to perform an effect is idiotic. Asking for a paradigm in a hypothetical is a waste of time, unless your hypothetical is about the flavor and roleplaying of a paradigm.

Even if you move into the realms of more restrictive paradigms you'll find that you can justify almost fucking anything, which is the point. Paradigms aren't the balancing factor, they are the flavor of your mage which may or may not incidentally restrict you. It informs the roleplay and flavor of your abilities and how you should go about assembling your effects.

Both an etherite and a hermetic can fireball you with forces 3 prime 2. The hermetic will on average have more mystical instruments, and as a mystic can discard his earlier. This doesn't mean an etherite can't have "psychic ether field manipulation" as an instrument and conjure fire from his mind. Even a technocrat could use the anthropic field principle thing and psionics, though that's generally considered distasteful.

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>>98885511
>redditors repeat paradox and paradigm matter
Every redditor plays as a vague paradigmer. Every time they play as a Technocrat they're a "psionic" Technocrat who doesn't have to use technology. Thinking paradox and paradigm don't matter is the most reddit thing you can do that your campaigns might as well be all about fighting to give all trans people in the world their preferred sex with a mega concert ritual. Every soicuck talks about how paradox isn't a problem and how mages can get 100 successes to solve any problem. Most discussion of Mage is by and for vague paradigmers. Vague paradigmers are single handedly what make me want technomancers to genocide all other mages because you're all too fucking retarded. I want to kill all Technocrats but this single issue alone makes me willing to reconcile with them.

>>98885482
Because it is, third worlder?
It's the constraint of "you can do anything, why don't you?"
Every person reading this is fully capable of killing the president. Why don't they?
>buh buh there's reasons, illegal, unethical
Not relevant, (you) want to talk ONLY about capabilities and every single person reading this CAN do it, so why don't they?

>>98885482
>>98885514
My Paradigm is that the Powers of Love and Friendship and Justice will prevail against Evil

>>98885623
This is literally how the rules are. Sorry that they work this way and it upsets you. I agree that the game would be much better if paradigm mattered and Paradox mattered. It doesn't. Based on the actual rules of the game, it just doesn't. That's the point.

I do not care if I get one point of paradox or a five point backlash. It simply, by the rules of the game as written, is not very threatening. The same for paradigm. A technocrat is totally canonically allowed to be a psionic, even if it goes against the flavor. There is no real advantage, aside from being more coincidental, to restrictive paradigms.

Note that the original text sort of implies a game approach over a fiction approach, where in the latter you may argue for mages paradigm matters even if the system does not represent it. Even then I would tell you chaos mages exist, and even a hermetic is likely to have a justification for an infinite amount of total bullshit. Only technocrats and so on get raped by this.

>>98885511
I mean, you're making the game more boring for yourself by treating paradigms like wallpaper. Of course mages are all going to feel the same and like they're nothing more than different combinations of Spheres if you're not going to take paradigms seriously. It's on the players to make paradigms matter so if paradigms don't matter in your game, you're the problem.

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>>98885623
>Every time they play as a
Redditors don't play games. Most people don't play games, which is why they talk that way.
They are nogames nogroup ronin caitiff orphan faggots flailing in the dark.
At best, they get their D&D group to try a one-off and then dickride that warped, inaccurate experience until the wheels fall off in loudly posting to others about "how things go" in this game system.

Non Mage players are like "muh paradox muh paradigm" about being nuked from afar when literally every single paradigm would allow that

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>>98885645
Suspecting that this "guy" is a particularly autistic redditor or an actual LLM because the "Paradox does not matter" creep has been posting every time I've checked this thread.
Don't respond to either an LLM or a "person" trained off of the wiki, because as a reminder, most LLMs can't scrape the books due to basically none of them being OEM or OCR scanned adequately so they can only intuit the game off of the wiki (which is inherently inaccurate and lacking in rules due to copywrong faggotry).

>>98885548
>somwthing that isn't even confirmed as true is relevant
Keep on mind, there are kindred that disagree with the Book of Nod.

>>98885675
Yeah but the least that you could do is actually describe the sweet-ass ritual that your character is doing to kill a motherfucker, instead of just going "Forces 3 Correspondence 3 to nuke that ass."

>>98885654
I actually agree with this. What I mean is that on a fiction level you can assume for there to be a given mage which can pull off the effect you are describing, if you are just doing hypotheticals. On a systems level, about every mage can do it.

On a.. chronicle level? Like, playing an actual chronicle of Mage, you are just flexing with your flavor. It's on you to research hermeticism and have a handy list of pre-written rotes, relationships and rules within your paradigm. But you'll have zero system advantages of John Reality Hacker who can justify every effect with "I edit the source code of reality." and John Reality Hacker explicitly exists within the fiction, as does John Chaos Mage.
>>98885676
llms absolutely can and will scan pirated copies of sourcebooks and if you tell chatgpt right now to look for an obscure rule in mage the ascension 20th anniversary and give you the page, it will most likely work.

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If they were so great, why did they go extinct?

>>98885187
>making the garou even more terminally retarded by having them beef on sight even with the high humanity ones

>>98885691
>But you'll have zero system advantages of John Reality Hacker who can justify every effect with "I edit the source code of reality." and John Reality Hacker explicitly exists within the fiction, as does John Chaos Mage.
If John Reality Hacker's player just says "I edit the source code of reality" each and every time, it is perfectly justified to heckle him by snoring and shouting "BORING" even if you're just another player at the table and not the ST.

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>>98885691
Noncanon M20 filth is actually already OEM text included with no need for OCR, so you're just proving my point, buddy.
It doesn't know shit about the real stuff yet.

>>98885714
It can read Mage Revised too. If you tell me you play another edition I'll just call you a faggot. Nobody is talking about the Paradox /Paradigm rules in anything but those two.

It's funny how Changelings can time travel easier than Mages, can true resurrect people easier than Mages and also create more Mages easier than Mages. Thank god for C20 buffs.

>>98885768
but unleashing is a total last resort no changeling would ever use. I believe it costs 2 glamour instead of the normal 1 for most arts? No "sane" changeling would ever pay such a steep price.

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>be mystic Traditions
>encounter 100 no-paradigmer mages
>switch sides and become MIB
>renamed to D(eviant)K(iller)-187
>walk into chantries mowing everyone down
>I can do this because for 14 hours a day I am being conditioned, fighting in battle simulations and enhanced in a nanoaugmentation facility
>hunt psychics and transpeople across the Technocracy shooting them in their constructs
>shoot my boss who was a dyed hair progressive Technocrat that wanted to end all pogroms
>taking constant medication and refitted with new cybernetics because I keep having brain aneurysms, heart attacks and my cybernetic arm keeps trying to strangle me or jerk me off to death
>shoot paradox spirits disguised as MIBs or bureaucrats chasing me across the Technocracy
>get promoted or gunned down

I will kill you all.
I will kill you all.
I will kill you all.

a solificati in sorcerers crusade that's gotten around to arete 3~4 levels of development would probably have an increasingly bitch of a time working his craft going towards china through syria-mesopotamia-persia-tarim basin, yea?
resource acquisition/management, being able to travel and fit in as-needed without tripping alarm bells for any random daedalean or ancient chinese secret checkpoint, getting increasingly scourged up the ass depending on just how harsh the the west-east shift is on his view of alchemy and such, etc.

>>98885768
two of those examples don't require unleashing

>>98885768
>Can time travel
>Can't make the world less banal
Potential man strikes again

>>98885819
weak to banal

>>98884647
>>98884652
Even though it's basically immediately made non-canon, I really like the 1e core's story told via the art. I keep it around as an urban legend in-setting. If you can kill your sire within a short enough time frame, (and usually with other qualifiers depending on who tells the story), you can become human again.

>>98885676
It's just a white-roomer.

Paradox "doesn't matter" in white room scenarios where the theoretical mage will only ever cast a single vulgar spell and will only accumulate a single point of Paradox (or maybe more if playing Reckoning rules M20 or Revised instead of non-Reckoning M20 or 2e). Paradox does matter in actual chronicles where it accumulates over time and you have to deal with playing an actual character, not a white room caricature who starts the chronicle with Prime 5 and a Periapt.

>>98885187
Personally I don't like the fact that any vampire pings as wyrm-tainted. Quit trying to shove your metaphysics on me, woof-boy. Especially when it's the same thing you blame for everything. Yawn.

>>98885482
In my experience, it's the people who actually play a game that acknowledge its shortcomings. The one person I know IRL that's played WTA doesn't think it's nearly as powerful as its advocates here claim it to be.

I've never met a mage player IRL, but I figure it might follow the same logic.

>>98885821
The unmatched power of price stabilite

>>98885785
2 Glamour isn't that much.

Also yeah it's insane how fucking OP Changelings are.

>>98884709
Sorry, my paradigm doesn't account for spirits so none of this is real :)

>>98885856
Only works that way if you're a Marauder with Quiet so high that you're unplayable and only in your immediate vicinity.