if you are playing in a Tolkien setting do good orcs just become elves?
>>98896889I’m pretty sure Tolkien thought orcs could redeem themselves, but Amazon is just so cringe and already shit the bed, so, no one will like it. No one will stand for a good orc.
Total Rangzer death
>>98896889No.
>>98896961Why not, aren't they just elves that got the mark of Cain
>So here is Ainorak, he's a balrog, but a good balrog...no, he's not a maiar, he got tricked like the rest but became good, also his has angel wings and an ice sword named Devastator of Light. He has a kpop group and sings in all the Elven kingdoms
They're still making this? I thought they gave up when it was trash and everyone hated it
>>98896928He did say orcs could redeem themselves, yes. It was a great regret of his to make a sapient species that couldn't be redeemed.
>>98897071Gotta squeeze that blood from the stone somehow.
>>98897071But anon, it being trash is the point. They want to subvert and destroy, not create.
>>98896928Wasn't it said in the second age every race fought on both sides except for the Noldor, and you had the mountain/eastern orcs rebelling against Sauron? >>98897058That would be Arien right? After Morgoth tries to rape her she ends up the fiery spirit escorting the sun and she is the same class as a Balrog.
>>98896976Because Tolkien's problem was EXACTLY one of irremeadeble Orcs (or not). He concedes in letter 153 that they should not be tought of surely irremeadable, but that's it.Making them go back to being elves is, like, the exact contrary of ME's spirit, which is one of loss, decadence and sins being forgiven only with sorrow. A good-ish orc might be feasible, but one that washes away it faults and gets back to a superhuman status? The Noldor didn't.(also, presumably most orcs in third age were born orcs anyway. Consider Bolg, son of Azog and the matter that female orcs are canonical to the letters)
>>98897071The producers got a contract that forces Amazon to hire them for 5 seasons iirc
>>98897110That's absurdly dumb for Amazon, if true. Mind-boggling hard to believe.Like... you're doing no joke the costlier media shit in the history on mankind or something, and you're hired for potentially other 4 seasons of losing profits? Why the helll would they even think of something like this?
>>98897106What's sort of funny is that the Orc dilemma is has an interesting solution in modern times. Back then it wasn't easy to conceive of something that clearly talked and thought as being outside redemption. But Orcs could quite possibly be, as artificial life, running on some sort of artificial intelligence - its just the semblance of sapiency, but not the actuality. Which is amusingly predictive, given how we can now see that AI is essentially a mockery of the human spirit and creativity.
>>98897147Americans tend to believe that the richer you are, the more intelligent you must be, having cracked the money secret.But the truth is, most of the hyper rich are wildly out of touch with culture and media, if not reality itself. I'm pretty sure Bezo's son just asked him to do this and he shrugged and threw 5 seasons worth of money at it.
Is it like how pigs and boar are the same animal and they change if they're captive or not?
>>98897156I rather think he just didn't quite manage to reconcile the genesis of the dwarves with e.g. that of the orcs so we have all sorts of half assed explanations
>>98897081>>98897089At $100,000,000 per episode i think it was about squeezing as much money into a hole as possible then subverting it into being on fire>>98897110Lmao based
>>98897167Pigs might be eurasian boar, but the jury's still out on it and there are 20 other boars. Many of them could be said to be domesticsted but arent still pigs
>>98897166Yeah, but this is not about Bezos. It's not only HIS money.>>98897156It's kinda a false analogy anyway. Orcs clearly have human like intelligence (and no control over their darker instincts, but interestingly they seem to genuinely have a concept of decency: "the regular elvish trick" seems to have met a certain disdain, theoretically).That being said, you know what? Orcs/other fantasy bogeymen as stocastic evil parrots isn't a bad idea at all. Would steal outside of TOR.
>>98897156I always prefer how WHF and Goblin Slayer answered the question of the possibility of a member of a monstrous evil race possibly being raised into a good person, that being "It's not inconceivable, but the danger involved doesn't make it worth it to find out". It's like how brown bears and crocodiles aren't outright evil as far as we know, but we still need to respect that they're dangerous and vicious animals that we should protect ourselves from either way. Maybe orcs could be redeemed, maybe not, either way it should more about safety than morality.
>>98897156He seems to have the divide in his creatures. He never worries if Trolls or Dragons are redeemable. Trolls are stone animated with morgoths malice so basically are your AI example, and dragons seem to be spirits stuck in bodies. Its only orcs that are mortals tortured and bred into craven things
>>98897097>in the second age every race fought on both sides except for the NoldorCan you name some elves that fought for Sauron?>the mountain/eastern orcs rebelling against SauronI'd like you to find a quote that supports that too because I don't remember that in the Last Alliance but maybe it was elsewhere. When you do come back with that quote though remember that the post your replied to was about orcs redeeming themselves. Rebelling against Sauron doesn't mean that they were redeemed or redeeming themselves, simply they thought they had better odds of surviving or got sick of being subservient to Sauron and wanted new leadership.
>>98897547>All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.But we have this, where Saurons necromancy was using the souls of evil elves >It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one’s own will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.As for the unaligned orcs of the second age>while the Eastern Orcs, who had not experienced the power and terror of the Eldar, or the valour of the Edain, were not subservient to Sauron while he was obliged for the cozening of Western Men and Elves to wear as fair a form and countenance as he could, they despised him and laughed at him.
>>98897594Thank you.
>>98897604Though those unaligned orcs even if they were fighting against Sauron were probably evil >Morgoth not Sauron is the source of Orc-wills. Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremediable allegiance to evil (Morgoth).
>>98897625Yeah, I guess the difference is a bit like Franco's spaniards who didn't fight with Hitler, but they were still fascists.
>>98897635I like how he just causally says yep, there were orcs in the last alliance as allies of convenience but never expands on it
>>98897249Personally I think they are subspecies of eurasian boar since both can interbreed and their offspring aren't sterile
>>98898212biological species concept is meh, because it gets wrecked by ring species
>>98896928Redemption by Iluvatar after death?
>>98897156He did talk about them maybe being animals formed into the shape of elves/men who parroted the recordings Morgoth put into them. Including thoughts and acts of rebellion.
>>98896928Pretty much. Just more cringe politics hamfisted into a poorly and acted written fantasy story.
>>98896889>if you are playing in a Tolkien setting do good orcsIf you are playing in a Tolkien setting there are no good orks.
>>98897260>and no control over their darker instinctsAnon they're mostly slaves to literal demons, anything but malice and evil is crushed out of them as they develop and that would take millennia to wean out in any population which has to be insular and isolated because most races kill orcs on sight. The north star is an actual angel up there to remind them even at night that they will all be hunted down.Not exactly a big impetus to improve even after freedom.
>>98898291Reminder orcs are still alive and well in the modern world according to Tolkien and they created the tools of war most horrific in WW1.
>>98898551Maybe good orchs?
>>98896889this is the goofiest looking shit ever. something a 13 year old girl came up with.
>>98898600Orcs are Fr*nch? Yeah, fair. That tracks.
>>98898863They are described as sallow skinned, short and bulbous headed. The free ones are in the east. They are Asians
>>98897147It just proves that jewazon doesnt care about money, but it does about destroying your culture and your values.
>>98897147>Why the helll would they even think of something like this?Because it's a win-win; either it makes as much money as they want it to and they can point to it and say "we're making money now pls invest" or it's a financial garbage fire that gets used as a tax write-off and they can point to it and say "we know how to make lemons from lemonade now pls invest". And because it's steaming, it's easier than ever to make the numbers dance.>Prime subscriptions rose 5% after it started streaming, we're making money>It didn't reach the target of 1.4 gorillion streaming hours that we were targeting to break even, we're losing moneyBasically how it works in the most common form in the film industry is that a parent company creates or contracts a shell corporation to make the movie and thus handle the money while providing "services" that end up siphoning off almost all of the income - naturally, the parent company has de facto total control over all accounting and can therefore do whatever the fuck they want.>Company A creates company B>Company B receives a loan of ~$100M from company A to make movie, with assistance from company A>Movie releases, movie brings in ~$200M>Company A has their loan of $100M repaid, + $40M interest + $90M "fees for services rendered" + "$30M in sales lost to piracy">Anyone who wasn't important enough to either have a large fixed fee or points on the gross gets fucked, parent company writes off the "$60M loss" against their taxes or actual shortfalls from other moviesAmusingly enough the Jackson trilogy is actually one of the most notorious examples ever of Hollywood accounting; according to New Line Cinema, the films made a net loss against more than six BILLION dollars of reported gross income.
If Tolkien himself was never able to answer the question to his own satisfaction, a bunch of fuck wits like us on a Patagonian Penile Enhancement board aren't going to accomplish a thing.
>>98901799Bezos is not gonna take from me my books anymore than the millions fanfictions out there, and if there is ONE nerd author that is really difficult to "overwrite" it's fucking Tolkien anyway.You're probably easier making people see Homer like last hollywood blockbuster.>>98903034Honestly I think the orc problem is kinda cool as a philosopical in-setting thing, would use it when playing in ME. Makes for some interesting question for the characters - remarkably, even if they spoke with Gandalf or Elrond about it they wouldn't have the answer. Is maybe having a tiny place for potential forgiviness doable? In your usual adventure most probably not, but. Considering that LOTR is about an ambigous "monster" as much as heroics or landscapes, I feel like it works.
>>98898863considère la possibilité du suicide, ducon
>>98896928>I’m pretty sure Tolkien thought orcs could redeem themselvesCould, but it wasn't anything common or even reasonable to expect. It'd be a 1% of a 1% of a 1% moment, and not one worthy caring about when it came to orcs. Ironically Amazon COULD'VE pulled this off if they didn't push the whole "orcs have families" crap, which just made this shit way too obvious and overdone to make this rare orc character arc worktldr: Amazon should've double-downed on orcs being shitheads, to make this arc work effectively
>>98903068Frodo himself came to realize the humanity of orc by the end, chastising Samwise for his black and white mentality. Since they're still living beings whom were "ruined by Sauron".This makes me think the life of an orc is utter hell on a sense we can't imagine.
>>98903114the easy way to do it was when Sauron buck broke the eastern orcs
>>98896889Was the Lord of The Rings show Amazon did really that bad on it's own?Tolkein's LOTR is a big pillar of modern fantasy. I think Conan The Barbarian is one of them too.I know there are more, but I don't know what they are at the moment.
>>98896928the problem is that to be redeemed he'd have to accept illuvatar as his lord and saviour but amazon is kiked to the gills so why the fuck would they allow that kind of uplifting pseudocatholic mythology that tolkein created.
>>98897071>I thought they gave up when it was trash and everyone hated itThat's the point anon. The goal is to ruin it for everyone.
>>98896889>IM SUBVERRRRETIIIIIIIIIING
>>98903626>Was the Lord of The Rings show Amazon did really that bad on it's own?YES
>>98903626Appendix N
>>98896889Who is paying for this? No one is watching it.
>>98897110I feel like it'd be cheaper just to hire contract killers to repeatedly kill the showrunners until they stop trying and give up.
>>98897594That last point reminds me of that "femboy Sauron" meme wrt. Sauron's fair form, and now I'm imagining orcs laughing and throwing homophobic slurs at Sauron.
>>98904932>Who is paying for this? No one is watching it.I think its Bezos pet project to literally make the world worst. It was created about the same time he was going on about how story telling can't be hard you just make it like a product. He could make a story!
>>98896889>>Hey, it's that Orc over there..>Which Orc?>>You know. The Orc. The Orc with an arc.
>>98903124I mean, them having maggoty bread for rations doesn't imply they are having a good time in generalYes I know its Saruman's lot, but I really doubt Sauron is treating his comparative dregs much better
>page 10>suddenly irrelevant bump Hmmmmm
>>98904993>>98896889“The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own.”(This still enrages people wrt. this awful show and its wretched creators.)
>>98896889This is such a pointless thing to even talk about. As >>98896928 said that's nowhere in the realm of what is wrong here.However there's no point even caring. Ring of power is legally not allowed to be in the same room as 95% of the middle earth canon. They have such extremely limited rights to the IP that they're on par with a chinese knockoff of an action figure. Most of the shit they bastardize could be argued is because they're not allowed to be lore accurate without infringing on the IP. It's a terrible fantasy series in general with too much budget they somehow can't even use to look better than a BBC show. But it's so far removed from tolkien's setting that your TTRPG set in middle earth is closer to being actual canon than them. So there's no point even using it for shitposting prompt like this. It's so irrelevant to even the people they tried to pander to at the start. People didn't just no like it, they were actively revolted by the concept of the show.
>>98903626>Was the Lord of The Rings show Amazon did really that bad on it's own?Yes. It has nothing to do with identity politics (but that is one part of it). The reason it is bad is because the writing is trash, the acting is trash, and nobody in the production likes LotR and it shows. There is no passion for the legendarium Tolkien devised. It's paint-by-numbers generic slop.
>>98904993There's a subset of trust fund nepo baby writers in hollywood who think super highly of themselves and believe they're too good to write for a popular IP, but also they're so uninteresting they can't write anything original no matter what they tell themselves. So they tell themselves they're stooping down to write things that are beneath them and use the connections they have through their inherited wealth to get to write for shows for popular IP. And they scoff at the lore, mock the writers of the books the show is based on, and generally create dogshit no one likes. There are a number of examples of the shit these kinds of writers make, but this show is the epitome of it all. Too many /tv/ types will insist it's a hollywood elites thing. But no, it's the chaff of high society.
>>98903626The amazon show doesn't have the rights to most of Tolkien's works. They have access to a tiny narrow sliver of it. So they have to work around shit, make shit up, rename shit, and even if they had full access it's clear the writers they hired are dogshit so that wouldn't have made it betterr. So it's bad. But also it's 100% irrelevant to the canon and to anyone with a sliver of interest in Tolkien's world.
>>98908087It's a thing un video games now, too. See Mixtape.
>>98908199It's a thing with writers. Video games are not as prone to being defined by the writing so it doesn't come up as much, but it's still a thing with them. But I'm also talking about when those writers are forced to work with an IP, and how they don't respect it and think they're above it. Mixtape sounds like the kind of crap they make when they're not forced to work under a popular IP, and you get to see just how unimaginative they are.
>>98908199>>98908240Videogames is where the ones who had no connections to avoid getting booted from Hollywood go. So in some ways, it is worse as they have no unified standards or "legacies" that keeps Hollywood's ship afloat.
>>98909069>Videogames is where the ones who had no connections to avoid getting booted from Hollywood goThat doesn't really make any sort of logical sense and sounds like something you're pulling from your ass to make videogame writers sound especially bad, when they really aren't.
>>98909142Hollywood has people do things like support staff for TV shows before they would formally employ you as a writer or other things. That doesn't mean all these guys cannot write but since we are talking about the nepo babies here, the same ilk like them that were able to be introduced as support staff but without connections to clime higher stops here and look for somewhere else with whatever connections they do have.
This is unironically Jewish subversion where you side with the ugly retards born from demons to destroy all the white people. Such works aren't considered kosher in Judaism for a reason.
>>98909279the thing that's not making sense there is that those people don't respect videogames or even consider them a thing that can be written for. They understand writing scripts for things people act in, they can be very pretentious about it, but they don't view videogames as a legitimate medium for storytelling.I get the people who write for games like >>98908199 but they seem to be a different group of californian nepos.
>>98909290Jews very famously do the opposite of that though. You really just don't think your shitposts through do you.
>>98909290If they wanted to do something jewish they could've just done a dwarf-focused series
>>98909293Of course they don't like it. That is why they have no qualms with things like glorified movies with a bit of game in it, or just shamelessly making political statements and bribing journalists to say gamers are dead collectively. They don't hold games as an art form with any real regards for it, but they still did the same shit you see those Hollywood nepo babies do and have just as bad writing skills to match it.Of course that was over a decade ago now and you see new people coming in who at least don't mind writing for games so i can and will admit things could have changed in that time.
>>98897635The Italians were the fascists, anon.Spaniards are not Italians.>inb4 fascism is when I'm uncomfortable with state power being wielded openly>>>reddit
>>98909525>Calling De Riviera not a fascistNot gonna play this game, you already lost.
>>98909525It's only fascism when it comes from Fascisia Italy, otherwise it's just sparkling totalitarianism.
>>98896889There's no such thing as a good orc. They cannot be redeemed in life. They are evil, through and through. Anything to the contrary is bullshit headcanon and marks you as an ignorant post-modernist pleb.
>>98897097>After Morgoth tries to rape herFuck off.
>>98911342Tolkien disagreed
>>98911427No, he didn't.
>>98911537Prove it
>>98896928>RedeemedYou can't redeem something that has a baseline of evil. Redeeming something puts it back to it's whole state. An orcs original state is an evil ass orc. It's why you can't redeem a succubus, demon, or other base evil being. Could an orc with against that nature and become something better? Absolutely. It is an outlier and has fuck all to do with redemption. If you were to redeem Drizzt, as an example, he would go back to being just a straight up evil drow.
>>98911544You need to prove that he did.
>>98911601WrongOrcs original state is a human/elf before being corrupted by melkor. They are just further along in the fall of man than we are
>>98911603>>98911601Letters 66, 78 and 153 and Morgoth's Ring establish orcs are things that people become, not as something made, for evil can only pervert and corrupt and is incapable of creation. There is no one who is originally and absolutely an orc in accordance with God's design and beneath that orcdom, there is a part of God's world which is ultimately good that can be redeemed through acceptance and toleration, even if it might take a miracle to do so.
>>98911743Absolutely no mention at all of being redeemable in life.
>>98912333Tolkien was a Catholic and Lord of the Rings was a fundamentally religious and Catholic work (Letter 142). In accordance with Catholicism, redemption, better known as salvation, is the realisation and acceptance of the grace of God, which requires living a virtuous, faithful and sacramental life. You would need to provide support for your argument that the Lord of the Rings was a work built on the very unchristian notion that redemption can only occur after death.Hebrews 9:27. Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgement.
Maybe I dunno. Elves, of which orcs are corrupted version of, in the books are far more magical/spiritual beings than the movies and show depict them as so it's kinda per adaptation at this point.I don't think it'd be controversial to say that the Jackson movies version of orcs are just a ontalogically evil, irredeemable monster race since so much of the spirituality and divinity is absent from the films for example.
>>98912540If we are distinguishing between different versions of the Lord of the Rings and different properties that exist in that franchise, Rings of Power is legally distinct and separate from the Peter Jackson films, therefore it is free to establish its own sentiment regarding orcs and whether or not they are ontologically evil.
>>98911622>>98896889>>98911743Orcs are NOT elves. That was an idea that Tolkien toyed with for a time but in the end he rejected it, specifically to not have to deal with the idea of good orcs.His final position was that orcs were animals with no soul (and therefore no true free will to choose between good and evil) that Morgoth corrupted. They don't follow Morgoth or Sauron because they are evil (like Balrogs), but simply because they are scared of them and under their influence. They are like rabid dogs.>>98903114>>98896928No. They all get killed in the 4E.>>98897072Orcs are not sapient. They are animals.
>>98912641Morgoth's Ring disagrees with you. Orcs are sapient and sentient, open to morality and in possession of free will. They demonstrate every faculty of free will that man possesses. Tolkien ultimately concludes that their ability to act independently of the influence of Morgoth and Sauron serves as evident that they are not puppets, that they are people in possession of free will, and that this means that they are capable of redemption.
>>98912489You gave a quote from the Bible that argues that for me, so thanks.
>>98912765Actually read Morgoth's Ring anon. It says quite clearly that Tolkien changed his mind on orcs being elves.>On the typescript of AAm my father noted against the account of the origin of the Orcs: 'Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish' (p. 80)And regarding their souls>In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea.(7) The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted I converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words - he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots).And finally:>See 'Melkor'. It will there be seen that the wills of Orcs and Balrogs etc. are part of Melkor's power 'dispersed'. Their spirit is one of hate. But hate is non-cooperative (except under direct fear). Hence the rebellions, mutinies, etc. when Morgoth seems far off. Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar. Also (n.b.) Morgoth not Sauron is the source of Orc-wills. Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremediable allegiance to evil (Morgoth). Aule wanted love. But of course had no thought of dispersing his power. Only Eru can give love and independence. If a finite sub-creator tries to do this he really wants absolute loving obedience, but it turns into robotic servitude and becomes evil.What does "their own irremediable allegiance to evil" mean?They are not puppets, but they don't have a soul either. That's what them being animals mean. Nowadays the idea that good dogs go to Heaven is pretty common but back in Tolkien's time Christianity was quite adamant that only humans had souls.
>>98912875Actually comprehend the text that you're quoting and realise that it comes from a decade before Tolkien's last comment on the matter of orcs, which is this:>The orks, it is true, sometimes appear to have been reduced to a condition very similar, though there remains actually a profound difference. Those orks who dwelt long under the immediate attention of his will - as garrisons of his strongholds or elements of armies trained for special purposes in his war-designs - would act like herds, obeying instantly, as if with one will, his commands even if ordered to sacrifice their lives in his service. And as was seen when Morgoth was at last overthrown and cast out, those orks that had been so absorbed scattered helplessly, without purpose either to flee or to fight, and soon died or slew themselves. Other originally independent creatures, and Men among them (but neither Elves nor Dwarves), could also be reduced to a like condition. But 'puppets', with no independent life or will, would simply cease to move or do anything at all when the will of their maker was brought to nothing. In any case the number of orks that were thus 'absorbed' was always only a small part of their total. To hold them in absolute servitude required a great expense of will. Morgoth though in origin possessed of vast power was finite; and it was this expenditure upon the orks, and still more upon the other far more formidable creatures in his service, that in the event so dissipated his powers of mind that Morgoth's overthrow became possible. Thus the greater part of the orks, though under his orders and the dark shadow of their fear of him, were only intermittently objects of his immediate thought and concern, and while that was removed they relapsed into independence and became conscious of their hatred of him and his tyranny.
>>98913020Of particular importance:>But 'puppets', with no independent life or will, would simply cease to move or do anything at all when the will of their maker was brought to nothing.>Thus the greater part of the orks, though under his orders and the dark shadow of their fear of him, were only intermittently objects of his immediate thought and concern, and while that was removed they relapsed into independence and became conscious of their hatred of him and his tyranny.Therefore by 1969, Tolkien had come to the conclusion that orcs were capable of harbouring independent life and will, which by Catholic doctrine means that they capable of salvation as creatures of free will.
>>98912813Judgement is not redemption according to Catholicism. All sapient life has already been redeemed by Christ and can achieve salvation through living a sacramental life. After death, said life is judged.Take a course or two in theology, it might do you good.
>>98913020>>98913035None you have pasted contradicts what I've said.You simply do not understand that it's not a binary between complete puppets and beings with a soul (fea). Orcs not being creations of Morgoth, but rather corrupted beasts, lets them be in between those two positions. They are not his puppets, but that doesn't mean they have souls. This is what Tolkien points out by saying that they have the independence of a dog or a horse. A dog is not a lifeless puppet mindcontrolled by its owner and can live and move after its owner disappears, sure, but it doesn't have a soul (as per Catholicism).>Tolkien had come to the conclusion that orcs were capable of harbouring independent life and will, which by Catholic doctrine means that they capable of salvation as creatures of free will.Dogs don't go to Heaven as per Catholic tradition up to Tolkien's death. Go discuss with Thomas Aquinas if you are mad about this.
>>98898291Damn they thicc
Why are we discussing theology on the traditional games board?
If I am running a Tolkien game and a player wants to be an orc, I simply ask them to leave.
>>98912641The covenant god made after the flood was with all animals and numbers 22 reiterates that animals have awareness and can see the works of god for what it is. Aquinas sensitive souls isn't canon.
Nogames general
>>98912875>Tolkien's time Christianity was quite adamant that only humans had souls.Actually Christians have been arguing over this sense before Aquinas and franscican schools lean towards animal souls being permanent and part of the resurrection
>>98913050Except you're dealing with a setting sans/pre Christ. So no redemption through that, and since only God can judge you, redemption occurs after death. Good luck when you eventually start your theology courses.
>>98897097>Arien is a BalrogBack to the cage with you, Amazon lackspittle
>>98911601Aren’t orcs corrupted elves and uruks are corrupted humans? Idk my lore very well but I remember that vaguely
>>98897071kikes have infinite money, and their objective is to torture and annihilate you.
>>98913477NTA but that presupposes that the state of beings in middle earth is one of needing redemption.
>>98913552You'd need to read the chain you're responding to to understand why that's not relevant to me.
>>98900203>They are described as sallow skinned, short and bulbous headedSo Fr*nch, as the other anon said?
>>98909299>>98909303Organic posts
>>98912333No mention of them being irredeemable in life either, but Tolkien did write there>I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going to farwhich means they are "not irredeemably bad" therefore "redeemably bad". The "in life" part looks a lot like trying to move the goal posts.
>>98913761You're the type to repeat the same dialogue options over and over then call other people NPCs.
>>98913246it's a part of homebrewing your own setting
>>98896928Technically correct but the entire thing is a culture war football now so its just brainrot on both sides all the way down anymore and the only response is to write off the entire Amazon show for being shit and doing this to a wonderful setting.
>>98897594Bodied that freak
>>98913477Original sin is not a factor of Tolkien's setting, therefore Christ is not needed to redeem humanity. This means that the default state of sapient life is that if it uses its free will to live a sacramental life, then it will be judged after death and considered worthy of Heaven. Orcs free from the dominion of Morgoth and Sauron have free will and are therefore capable of salvation.
>>98914136>"noooo stop noooticing, you bad goyim"Kek, no. Back to the camps for you, shekelstein
>>98896889I do not give a fuck about noncanon
>>98913892You conveniently left out the part where he said that the only way they can be considered redeemed is if they accept playing their part as evil beings.
>>98916165If you think an orc would ever use their free will to live a sacramental life, you have no business talking about it. Tolkien already demonstrated what they'd do, two orcs discussed running away to become bandits to rape and pillage human settlements far away. They are not capable of redemption, at least not in life.
>>98896889Technically speaking, all orcs are just elves or men that have been mutated into soldiers for Sauron. It's more accurate to call being an orc a form of curse that can be overcome but leaves the sufferer permanently disfigured.
>>98917714No, let's nip this bullshit once and for all. Orcs are not just elves/men mutated into minions. Tolkien speculated their origins and never settled, but since Christopher got it published, I'll take it as canon that their species originated from elves/men, HOWEVER, orcs in all the ages after the First Age were NOT just people turned into monsters, they were the long established descendants of those that were. Their nature can be overcome about as much as a fucking pug can overcome being tarded and acting like a wolf again. Orcs are their own thing, their ancestry is lost to generations of being sadistic, malicious, vulgar footsoldiers for a literal devil.
>>98916165>Original sinYes it is, and its presupposed that the world is simply antediluvian Europe>“They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end.”History of middle earth volume 10. Read the story before you run your mouth
Worth mentioning that the only definition by which a canon might be existant in the Legendarium is the one that JRRT published and arguably the letters after that. The Silmarillion's writings themselves are all over the place. Most from the fifties (so, before LOTR), some after up to his death, some waaaaay earlier, like 30s. This is not to mention the plethora of things that HOME (well, more recent texts regarding big S' events) just flat out contradict. And this is all something he didn't fell like was ready, dude liked rewriting his elven stories.So, Cristopher might have done a good work or not as setting up a "bible" to give us a general idea, but canon? Tough luck calling it that.That being said, personally, I think >>98917728 is correct: warped elves or whatever, I feel like no way these dudes have been fighting for like ten millennia and stayed so... relatively normal? Azog having a son taking his place after the Battle of Azanulbizar sounds like a very strong clue that, nepotism or not, there is quite a level of generational change - after all, if YOU had been fighting for literal ages, would you really have a new chief that's been born perhaps three decades ago?
