>I am a legendary blademaster renowned all over the world for my skill>for my turn, I’m going to walk up to that guy and hit him four times>then I’m going to wait while he hits me back, then we’re going to keep doing that until one of us goes down>oh and I can try to trip people a few times every short restWhat did the designers mean by this?
You're right. There should be a good 30 minutes of the fighters rolling around on the floor hugging each other until one of them catches their breath enough to throw a punch at their half-conscious opponent. That's much more exciting.
>>98937352Guy Who Can't Into Abstraction has a point. If only there was some kind of system where attacks happened simultaneously, with a damage model that could represent various types of debilitating injuries. If only...
>>98937466Abstractions have to not blatantly violate what they're trying to abstract or be far removed enough that it doesn't resemble it. Chess is so far removed from war that noone cares. D&D combat is not as far removed from real combat, and it's been a persistent complaint since OD&D.
>>98937466Riddle of Steel. What were you thinking of?
This is the third thread like this in 48 hours. Im starting to think it might be bait...
>>98937352The rules are yours to interpret how you wish. Our table treats combat rolls and hp as representations of skill and tenacity, not individual attacks and meat points. You should do whatever makes you comfortable.
>>98937352Here is a thought, play actual games other than 5e.
>>98937536Not OP, but what do you suggest? Are there any games where combat does not require any abstraction?
>>98937560Do mma irl1 round of mma is much more complex than any ttrpg and almost every single video game
>>98937560I been play testing DC20, just got Broken Empire, and got back into Sword World before the official release. Any of those would do.
>>98937428Uh oh DYEL pencilneck spotted
>>98937572Never tried any of those or have any idea about them. Im fluent in 5e, genesys, FDNFF, ffg 40k (dark heresey etc) and shadowrun. Any of those simmilar?
>I'm a swordsman of renown>But I have to stay planted on the spot for me to hit people with two swords>It's for balance and realism they say...as that jackass in a robe can just nuke a room without breaking a sweat
>>98937352HYTNPD&D>>98937475e.g.
>>98937581DC20 is basically a refined 5e that fixes most of the problems. For example Rangers/Hunters are playable, Martial classes all get the "Battlemaster Maneuvers" are useful in combat. Also love how they did the Gish with Spellsword. (It fuses Paladin, Magus, Rune Knight, Spellsinger, etc.)
So how should combat work then, nogames pooper poker
>>98937683Give marital combat skills and abilities like they did with the Battlemaster subclass. The problem is they go all in on spells and the only thing fighters and maritals have extra attack. However everyone get at least one about the same time making it pointless. Doesn't help most people don't play past level 12-13. Plus even then. That 3 or 4 attacks don't mean much unless they get enchanted weapons and all.
>>98937654>>98937719>balancing martials and casters
>>98937352>I am a legendary blademaster renowned all over the world for my skillPost fencing/HEMA awards with timestamp, otherwise you're talking out of your ass and are just yet another larping pencilneck.
>>98937737Yes, as it should be.
Jfc it's been 27 years give it a rest.
>>98937737It's not too hard. Let Maritals do more than just "attack more than once or twice a turn." Especially when they make every other class do it around the same time.
>>98937908>just give martials spells that do less damage, apply fewer status effects, and can only be used in melee range>this will surely bridge the divide
>>98937922Why do you greentext like you're quoting the post you're replying to despite saying something completely different?
>>98937927>Let Maritals do more than just "attack more than once or twice a turn."By all memes, give us some examples.
>>98937352Have you tried not playing D&Dogshit?
>>98937956It's clear the only know Dragqueens & Dogshit. It's like a girl who plays candy crush on their phone thinking that makes them a "gamer girl." Hell, that's what the fucking Corpos try to court. then are shocked the fans left when they printed on that woke slop, and made all those DEI filled games.
>>98937949Let the move faster than casters, hit harder than casters, hit pressure points or other specific locations to inflict status effects (that don't have to be worse or fewer than what casters can do). Let maneuvers like disarming or tripping opponents be something martials can combine with attacks, instead of them either not existing or being generally worse alternatives to a regular attacks. Put some actual thought into grappling. Those are the first few thought that immediately come to mind.
>>98937352If you don't like the system, just change it. My group experimented with multiplying damage by the level of the attacker. It was fun at first, a level five fighter was truly fearsome, as he could carve through a line of lower level enemies easily, killing each victim with single hit. It changed combat though, as being one shotted by anyone better than you meant you had to pick your fights and not just attack everything on sight like most RPGs encourage you to do. This was beyond some players, many of who prefered the twenty round 'fighting with nurf guns' style combat to 'one hit one kill' realism.
>>98937737You can if you get creative:Spells could be slow to cast, giving targets a chance to notice and dodge.Metal plate armor, padding, and a helmet could offer some protection from direct-damage spells.A shield could deflect an elemental offensive spell.Petrification could require direct contact with exposed skin.A bard playing loudly enough could make a voice-based enchantment ineffective.But the root problem is that it’s just bad game design to put characters who are only above-average guys in the same party as magic guys who can conjure a firestorm with a wave of their hand. Kind of like mixing Kindred and ordinary mortals in a VtM group.
>>98937719>>98937908>maritalsI believe Exalted has a lewd 3pp splat full of "Marital Arts" or did in earlier editions
>>98938465Exalted also moves the wizardly shit towards ritual spells and let's everyone use magic in the form kf charms cuz you're all demigods. D&D doesnt even let monks use magic.
>>98937980This was literally Legend d20.
>>98938653>Legend d20Really wish my players had liked it better, it was a great way to rebalance things and make super flexible classes/tracks. I get the lack of totally mundane tracks was a sticking point for some, but I'd have hoped more of them would appear over time if it hadn't been cancelled.
>>98938804There are a few in the unofficial addons like the PHB2. A lot of Rogue's tracks and the Knight track felt pretty mundane.
I like Black Hack's approach.By like 3rd level, fighter is out-damaging the party by a massive amount. But it works in that game because it's designed for more than just walking from action setpiece to action setpiece, and thief and wizard and cleric can be good at stuff other than "kill".I don't know why I'm bothering to reply in a bot thread though.
>>98937475>Riddle of SteelI feel like this is somehow connected. Some kind of steel is involved. Potentially of the endo variety. The bones of the combat system, so to speak.
>>98937569>mma so complexI garauntee its not, any mma round involving me is going to have the complexity of a fart in the bathtub. No tactics will be required or utilised by either side, it will make pong look like quantum physics in its comparitive complexity.
>>98937352Combat in D&D never made much sense. AC is one of my major complaints.I've always said this, but armor in D&D is more like a strange force field that either blocks attacks COMPLETELY or lets ALL damage through. Most other systems have armor reduce the damage taken instead, which makes much more sense to me.
>>98939312I take it a step further and give armor its own durability on top of reducing damage.
>>98939312>I've always said this, but armor in D&D is more like a strange force field that either blocks attacks COMPLETELY or lets ALL damage through.It's gonna average out in large enough numbers. But it is a lot more exciting if it's swingy. It's why gamblers like to gamble. It's not supposed to be a simluation or a good mathematical model, it's supposed to engage your brainchemistry in a specific way.
>>98937352They gave you Tome of Battle but it turns out martialtards are too dumb to do more than autoattack every round.
>>98939312AC in D&D is a representation of your ability to keep strikes from being effective, not how you mitigate those hits. It's why an agile enough character can have more AC than a guy in full plate, one is evading the attacks and the other is angling his armor so they bounce. Your attack roll represents his ability to slip a clean hit through those defenses instead of it skimming off a pauldron or getting sidestepped.
>>98939326That sounds good, many vydia have that, but I guess it could make the game more cumbersome and scare away new players.>>98939338I guess, but it's just frustrating that a dude with a bent butterknife can deal just as much damage against a guy in fullplate armor and a guy with no armor at all.>>98939385Realistically, it should have both a dodge mechanic and a damage reduction mechanic, since both can happen in combat.
>>98939413>it could make the game more cumbersomeNot for me.>scare away new playersI don't give a shit about new players.
>>98939326Go play trannyfinder then, they have what you want. The rest of us will realize that only retards pretending to be smart want pointless complexity.
>>98937466Paranoia XP?
>>98939514>they have what you wantNo it doesn't, not as a whole.One similar mechanic in isolation doesn't make up for the problems it copied from D&D, nor does it make up for the rest of the problems it created itself.There's a reason I have to make my own games instead of using what other people wrote just to make a quick buck."Rewrite what you don't like" and "talk about the games you do play instead of complaining", remember, faggot?
>>98937572>DC20is it still getting development ? I played it two years ago and even my back then my DM was complaining about how slow the updates wereI liked what I saw back then but it had almost only combat so not really a TTRPG
>>98937352>>oh and I can try to trip people a few times every short restthe battlemaster really should start with 8 maneuver dices per short rest, and be integrated into the base class
>>98937352Do you think the rules are a literal representation of what's happening in the fiction? lol
>>98937352This sounds like when Elon Musk was describing chess. It has that same flavor of fake pretentious retardation.
>>98937560Why would you use a system for abstracting actions if you don't want abstraction? You can just fight in real life, you know? Retard?
>>98937737It's quite easy, yeah.
>>98937949Any effect a caster can access, a martial can as well. Because there are no martials or casters. There are only characters. Retard.
I know I'm replying to a bait thread here but why are you, a non-pencilneck, very very obviously a chad thundercock playing a tabletop game at all? There's better hobbies to be had, more fun to be had than playing pretend at your table.If your friends or kids insist on doing this and you can't change that decision, then you're clearly not the alpha you thought you are
>>98944311>wizard casts levitation and flies away>warrior spins his spear above his head like a propeller and flies after himMaybe in a Wuxia setting.>>98938421How does VtM balance caster vampires and martial vampires?
>>98939514what a strange thing to saydo you just use pathfinder as an insult without actually knowing anything about it?Pathfinder has the same AC as every other D&D clone dude.
Play GURPS. The Martial Arts book was written by people that practice martial arts and know how fighting works.
>>98937876A fellow Scholar...
>>98939310bait but you should try it irl it's the ultimate strategy game >>98944552>>warrior spins his spear above his head like a propeller and flies after himlol
>>98944311>Any effect a caster can access, a martial can as well.I disagree. The classic example as another anon said is if the wizard simply casts levitation. A martial class can't do anything like it by itself, unless the martial class also has access to spells or has a magic mount or equipment.Traversing a river of lava is another exaple. Wizard can cast a bunch of shit, from making bridges out of thin air from floating above it etc, the warrior can't do much except trying to jump across or finding something to use as a makeshift bridge (ex: trying to take down a stone pillar)Wizards are just more op than martial classes when they're high level. This has always been the case.
>>98945979nta, I agree with you but the issue with what you describe is that casters (assuming dnd) also do damages, and they do a similar if not greater amount of damages too. Getting more attacks per action is a class feature for martials, when it's just part of the cantrips for casters (and it's all on one stat when martials need 2 or 3)You either need to-make spell caster do little damage (no scaling cantrips, massive nerfs to the likes of fireball)-remove the spells that allow you to do what other classes are supposed to do better (looking at you, knock or pass without a trace)-give martials features that at least try to close the gap without reesorting to spellcasting:>Throwing trees logs in the enemy ranks (AOEs)>being a well known martial helps with intimidation or deception (enchantment spells)>damage reduction as reaction (blade ward)>throwing sand to the enemy (blindness)>buff you teammates (bardic inspo, blessing, etc)>heal your teammates (healing word, many others)Yes the DM can allow for that, but not every DM will because it's not RAW. I'm not even asking for anime powers, some of these can be done (albeit poorly) by the battlemaster but for some reason not by other martials. Or you need to take a feat for it while the cleric just needs a long rest
>>98946126The thing is that in order to balance things out, you'd really have to either animefy things up for the martials (which some people would not like since) or really weaken the spellcasters (which would probably upset the players who like 'em). It's a tough design problem to fix. I know that in the end of the day it's a team game and that everyone contributes to help and all, but it can be a bit frustrating to have the druid become a tyrannosaur and tank and do damage better than the fighter, for example. Every class needs to feel unique.
>>98946204putting the battlemaster maneuvers as base feature for every martial wouldn't animefy the classes imho, and would be a good start toward giving them more versatility. It would would even improve some of them in terms of logic>swashbuckler can now feint and disarm>barbarian can now charge or pushjust give them fewer dices (and give more to the fighter)
>>98937352Your post actually gave me a neat idea for a combat system...
Dude, you're attacking the wrong system. The real problem is that "XP" and "levels" don't exist. We need a system that measures every workout and determines how much it adds to your overall lift before not mattering in combat at all because anyone sane is using ranged weapons.
>>98937352>I hate combat roundsduly noted then this isn't the hobby for youunless you'd care to explain how you'd do combat without people taking turnsdoes it involve shouting "LIgHTNING BOLT" over and over while throwing beanbags at people?seriously, explain to me how you run combat in any system of a game without people taking turns
>>98946707you retard there are countless games out there that dont have combat rounds.You need an example?Exalted 2e has you roll initiative and then each actions costs specific points and sets you back accordingly. So a knife strike will be 2 points while a greatsword 4 points so if the knife wilder playes first he will get 2 attacks in before the greatsword warrior even has a chance to move
>>98937569MMA is just sumo for twinks.
>>98937737Why don't you balance my dick on your nose?
>Realistically, it should have both a dodge mechanic and a damage reduction mechanic, since both can happen in combat.Cosmere RPG does it pretty simply:>10 + Physical Attributes (Strength+Speed) to determine AC>Armor subtracts from damage received>can spend a Reaction to Dodge (enemy attack suffers Disadvantage)>can spend a Reaction to Avoid Danger (Agility check to escape environmental threats or move out of AoEs)
>>98937352D&D is a skirmish-scaledown of a medieval wargame. That is why everything clunky about it is clunky.
>>98946840nta but that would be specifically rounds based on initiative order. That's how they take turns. In the order they rolled initiative. Very few games have simultaneous combat actions.
>>98937475>>98937466This sounds like a job for Nechronica!
>>98946204>Every class needs to feel unique.Yeah, which is why there should only be ONE. SINGLE. Fighting Man class, that has shit loads of kit-building potential, with various specialization and/or dip options, both for flavor and functionality. Fuck off with piecemealing martial/physical competence (yes that includes the majority of stereotypical "rogue" archetypes' features as well) into half a dozen (or more) classes, when those classes/abilities can be, and historically have been, combined together in one human being way more often than not.
>>98937352Play Dungeon Crawl Classic then.
>>98946707How dumb do you have to be to come away from that post thinking he was complaining about combat turns and not what he was doing on those combat turns?
>>98937352This is why ALL DnD and ALL fantasy RPG's should be played with called/targeted shots.>The mage blasts a fireball.>3d6 damage to room of goblins. Leaves higher tier foes alive however.>Party fighter goes in.>Calls for a targeted strike, trying to slit the throats of the two remaining hobgoblins with his greatsword. He has cleave, and good stats, and it's a feasible thing he argues.>Rolls with an appropriate penalty to hit.>Cuts the neck of the first one, it's decapitated. Second one's throat is opened, but not decapitated, as this attack doesn't make the heightened to-hit roll. Still does normal damage however, killing the hobgoblin.You fix combat disparity, give martials desperately needed power and complexity, at the minor cost that you're having to throw even more CR into each encounter. But you were already doing that anyway because DnD is too soft on an optimized party.
>>98950590I weigh 195 and bench 355 and I train mma
>>98955835>how to get gishes overrunning your gameFixed that for you.
>>98937719>>98937681>5e playoidsAs if battle master manoeuvres mean shit>Oh I can maybe trip a guy a couple times per day and do>roll roll roll>1 extra damage
>>98937352I haven't played out a proper combat round in years now. Not after I realized that you have to be a complete retard to engage in any kind of fighting that's anything more than a mere formality.I just run away every time a fight starts. If it comes down to more than me oneshotting the enemy from an extremely safe position, I'm out of there. Basically, combat rules are completely irrelevant once you actually learn how to play.
>>98937737>frog poster is a no games fagI am shocked
>>98957273this is what solo osr play does to a mani literally play rpgs for the combat, i dont want to dodge the most fun part of the game, you just need a system that is good at it
>>98944552Each clan has access to disciplines, which are supernatural abilities. Some make you stronger, faster, or tougher, and some manipulate minds or blood, but many have little or no use in combat. On top of that, attributes and skills aren't restricted at all, so there's no such divide in the first place.Btw last time I played was almost 2 decades ago so I have no idea for newer editions.
>>98937352If you want to be a weeb samurai then make every point of damage you deal a hit. You deal 18 points of damage? You've slashed your opponent 18 times.
>>98937560No, because that isn't possible.
>>98957273I guess this is a way to play as long as your characters have absolutely no goals that require taking actual risks to achieve.
