PUSHING BOXES IS NOT A PUZZLEI HATE PUSHING BLOCKS IF YOUR "PUZZLE" GAME INCLUDES SOME FORM OF GRID-BASED PLACEMENT OR MANIPULATION OF FIXED SHAPES I AM NOT FUCKING HAVING IT, GO WORK AT KELLOGS PLEASE I BEG YOU.
>oh you should play the wit-NO GO AWAY BALDY.
FACT: 99% of sokobans are designed by just recording an arbitrary sequence in, reversing it, and then working backward to throw in some elements that make it involve blocks. Not dissimilar to pic related.
The only thing worse than sokoban is Boulder Dash
>>739355245the worst part is that if you made a platformer that's more difficult than the death-zone meta, it'd still be called easier by the braindead retards (vast majority)
>>739355245That sounds like even more work but I hate pushing boxes so I will agree.
>>739355125I don't mind bring a marked box to a certain location and derivatives of it, but create a picture out of sliding block puzzles can get fucked.
>>739355168this is a very good gameYou cannot reply to my post unless you beat The Challenge
I am normal about this topic (I forget to put half of the games I play on this chart)>>739355817I straight up do not care, Jonathan. I'm sorry your soul is so empty.
>>739355125Dont you dare speak poorly about SSR
>>739355125This is what it looks like when people can't spin the apple inside their heads.
>>739355867great post ozymandius you fucking selfsuck fag.
>>739355125filtered
>>739355125ENTER:
Kneel
sokoban is absolutely a puzzle
>>739355867>ChartCope. GOTY incoming.https://youtu.be/q3PUtYGl3J0
>>739356450I will not play it, go back to making your compiler and never feeling the touch of a woman please.Updated the chart btw. Despite what it might seem, I actually decently enjoyed Lingo 2 (with someone else pushing me to keep going and face the horror together)
>>739356516is umineko twice on purpose.is this a puzzle left for the audience to solve?
>>739356592Yes, though if you've read it (and got it), it should be obvious why.
>>739356612seems like favouritism to me. But I like the other small touches youve done
>>739356643It admittedly somewhat is (I really like it), but not just. The entire work makes sense both "in-universe" and out of it, in multiple ways.
>>739356516Why is her story in the kino zone yet you consider it bad?
>>739355817I like it a lot too but sometimes I wonder if I just got lucky on the challenge
>>739356798It's structured in a way that should work, but the actual puzzle mostly relies on the lynchpin of figuring out she's got another "her" inside her head. Which isn't that hard to get, because she'll mention her name semi-frequently, and if you do the obvious thing and look up her name, you'll figure it out because she's talking to herself. It took me about an hour and change, I did not get why it was so praised.
>>739355125Why is it in EVERY fucking game holy shit, even games that have nothing to do with it. There's always a sliding block puzzle or something. Is there some tribute to be paid in blocks when you start a puzzle game project?>see: the basement in picrel
>>739355867I cant believe how bad Lingo was even though everyone sucked it off as le hidden indie puzzle gemSure the way it taught you what heights and colors meant was pretty cool. But past the midgame every puzzle was basically 'guess what word the developer is thinking.' You thought of a word that fits the rules of the puzzle? Too bad, that's not it! and neither are the 50 other words that would work. It's ONLY the one the developer is thinking of.As a bonus the game world is completely imcomprehensible to navigate and it takes 20 minutes of wandering around to get to that one specific place you wanted to goStill played it enough to get all the titles or whatever they were called
I did the challenge but I'm not interested in 500 hours of pushing blocks sorry jon
>>739357907We did not finish Lingo 1 for this reason.Lingo 2 is better, though it does have its "what am I thinking of" moments, it's usually only when you first encounter a symbol and then you can somewhat see the thread they're pulling on to get to the solutions, rather than each individual puzzle having this feeling attached.
>>739355867oh my god, OC? In this day and age?!>diagetic/narrative puzzles aka the KINO ZONE You are my brother.INFRA can go towards the bottom left. I've always said that the best parts of INFRA are the parts where it makes its puzzles feel like you're interacting with a real system; not everything is a puzzle solution, and there's more than one way to solve things. Thinking of the water treatment plant, the dam. The worst parts are where the artifice pokes through like in the underground tunnels.
>>739358297>INFRAI was not aware of this existing. I thought it was that game with LIDAR (which I cannot play because I am a massive pussy and I've heard it's scary). Will put it on the "the list".The chart is OC because my (boy)friend(s) and I play a lot of these and it's a handy way to tell what we like or not about these games. For me at least. I'm very opinionated on this topic. I forget to update it a lot because I do a lot of drugs.Also I do not actually hate Jblow, he just makes me sad because he clearly thinks he's very deep and would like to be seen as such, but all of his thoughts are on the level of "shit you would find profound when you are 12". It must be miserable and I'm sorry for him.
>>739356892Congrats you completely missed the point of it.And Umineko looks like VN trash. Why is it on there?
>>739358454>It must be miserable and I'm sorry for him.He was pretty happy in the Switch 2 announcement video.
>>739358530>Congrats you completely missed the point of it.Possible? Idk man, I just typed what the most obvious thing about 25 times and then the game ended. Was a few years back now but that's how I remember it.>And Umineko looks like VN trash. Why is it on there?It is literally a VN. It is also the greatest mystery and therefore puzzle ever written.>>739358575Have you seen him working day to day though?
>>739358596>Have you seen him working day to day though?Yes. Other than obviously being worn out from working on a complicated project for 10 years, but otherwise, he seems fine. Also,>Avatarfagging>With an anime girl, of all thingsSo this is the power of JB haters.
>>739358695Like I said, I don't hate him. He's just sad in a "at least I'm not Jblow" way to me. But I'm glad for him that he's able to find joy in creation, even if I find his output utterly tasteless.anime website, any argument is augmented by having a cute girl next to it.
>>739358810>"at least I'm not Jblow"As a programmer and an aspiring game dev, I'd love to be him. Or at least have his skill, since I don't want to be bald.
>>739355867Where would you put baba is you? Top right?
>>739358905Yeah no I respect his technical skill, he's (afaik) a talented programmer. But like in everything, he thinks he's better than everyone and knows "the truth", so obviously he spent the last 10 years of his life making up a language and compiler nobody but him and maybe 25 other nerds will ever use.Still, you have to put credit where it's due: he didn't give up. He's fascinating in all the wrong ways to me.>>739358957I've only played very little of it (I AM NOT PUSHING BLOCKS EAT SHIT), but somewhere under 0player, I'd say?
>>739358957well it's certainly not full of world-building storytelling
>>739359032>somewhere under 0playerThat's fair. Have you tried any of the Zachtronic games? They are kind of pure logic puzzle games but some of them have nice world building to the puzzles, like Shenzhen IO
>>739359032Nta but do you think that just because he doesn't automatically agree with the way other people think about or do things that it automatically makes him pretentious?
All the Blowhards here in the waiting room for OotSS should check out The Artisan of Glimmith.New release from Lunarch Studios who are a fascinating bunch. The ones who made that puzzle MMO that went offline after 8 months.It seems they learned their lessons about procgen puzzles at least. There's like a thousand of these buggers but they're clearly well-made.
>>739359287The only one I managed to really get in the groove with was Opus Magnum, which I almost finished years ago, and went back to to solve some of the "DLC" puzzles, and I got like 2/3rds though Exapunks too. The others got too abstract for me, I think, it didn't feel like I was "progressing" at a pace that led to satisfaction. Not enough veneer on the cereal box, I suppose.>>739359293It's not about agreeing, or doing things (I actually massively respect that about him). It's that everything he says or does exudes this aura of "I am a smart individual, I am saying something profound, and those who are smart (like me) will agree that it is profound". And like... I get what you're saying, I just do not think it is profound.Being pretentious is fine, if you've got something to be pretentious about. I happen to think he doesn't, aside from his work ethic.
>>739355867>Void Stranger this far from the narrative sidelmao guide reader
>>739359593Sorry but the pro-natalist propaganda, cutewacky anime girls and "this is from our other game maybe kinda" really did not do it for me. None of this is relevant. It's only this far left because of having to remember the Void Lords and their patterns somewhat.
>>739359298>The Artisan of Glimmith.I got bored of it after an hour or so. The puzzles felt very unfocused, like they had multiple solutions and I could just slap together whatever shape I wanted.
>>739359665>Have to remember the Void Lords and their patterns somewhatOh, my bad, so you didn't read a guide, you just straight up didn't play the game.
>>739359734>like they had multiple solutionsEvery puzzle has a unique solution. The difficulty ramps up rather sharply if that was your issue.I'm 30 hours in and still trying to unlock the final area. I'm having a good time with it.
>>739356516This strikes me as the list of a person who likes aha moments more than puzzles/puzzling. Also the "I found a clue!" and then immediately using that clue as the solution to a puzzle with the puzzle literally just being the fact you didn't know or realize the clue yet. And you score it better if you also tie in an aha plot twist.I guess a more apt way to put it is you prefer "riddle" games over puzzle games. I've never been a fan of escape room tier puzzles, but you do you. My most favorite recent puzzle game is Theta and Paralldoxs on Worldlines and I'm fairly sure you'd despise it.
>>739358454Oh, INFRA has a couple of spooky moments, but nothing truly terrifying that you can accidentally wander into. I think if you like diagetic puzzles you will enjoy it, even if a few things in it miss the mark.
I couldn't stomach more than a couple hours of void stranger. Is it worth putting in the work to understand the schizo ramblings of its fans whenever there's a puzzle game discussion?I kinda feel like I have to at this point
>>739356516Where do you think The Talos Principle games fit in that?
>>739359901I rolled my eyes, tabbed out and let my puzzle manservant do the bit where you follow one of the Void Lords down a pit, but I was checked in the rest of the time.>>739360050Yeah. That's fair. Riddles are interesting, something must be conveyed to solve them (and the best ones, with a "aha plot twist", also convey something), whereas puzzles are brain busywork. They do not leave a lasting impression. I still enjoyed most of the games on the chart (unless I took the piss out of their names, I most likely enjoyed it and would recommend to someone I do not hate)>>739360221I've only played the first one when it came out, so my memory is too fuzzy to be really confident. I'd say somewhere east of the Portal games? But I am aware the second game apparently leans more into a narrative side, just never got around to it.Updated chart with some of my two faves, cultsim and book of hours, btw.
>>739360184Depends. Do you like lesbians?
>>739360184There's better things to play, but if you even somewhat enjoy sokoban (weirdo), then sure. Otherwise I'd give it a pass, you're not really missing anything on the level of other games discussed here, aside from a couple cool metapuzzles, which is something found better (and more) elsewhere. Blue Prince comes to mind.
>>739356516>>739360050Though actually, I think I'm being too harsh on escape room like puzzles as those old flash game escape rooms were a part of my childhood and got me into liking puzzles. For a game you might like, consider Her Trees. https://stonetreebook.itch.io/her-treesEssentially a demo version and there's a full release on Steam. I bought it, but haven't played the full version yet. No idea if there's more to it than opaque escape room puzzles.>>739360280I think the appeal of the more puzzle pure puzzle games is the catharsis element. As in I think it's comparable to Dark Souls unironically. The pleasure that only comes after the pain of being stumped by a puzzle, but then figuring it out. I think The Witness is also a bad puzzle game because there's just too much fucking filler. I agree pure puzzle games become forgettable if they're comparable to stuff like Sudoku books.
>>739360486>https://stonetreebook.itch.io/her-treesI'll try to give it a look tomorrow, it looks like a "discover the rules" game, which are always a hit in my book.I only like Ds1 out of the fromsoft games (and Lies of P was cool too), so I guess I'm an outlier there too. When I get through your 10th sudoku in a row I don't feel catharsis, I just feel "oh fucking glad that's over", which has grown into a disdain for anything that does not even hide its cereal-box-ness to me. I like feeling things and remembering what I play, having something to discuss about it. There isn't much to be said about "oh yeah so you had to like... move the block up instead of down like you'd usually do it". It doesn't mean or say anything worth sharing with another human being.
>>739360486Witness was designed for aha moments so not surprised you didn't like it
>>739355125I don't care. Post cool sokoban games
>>739360687
>>739355867Someone place vagrant story on this. I hate those stupid box puzzles, they're like 50% of the game
>>739355867Retarded
I enjoyed poke all toads, it was fairly short but no puzzle felt like a waste and it had soul
>>739360280Just say you don't like puzzle games, you haven't even played most of the good ones
>>739360986>so you hate waffles?I have opinions about most "puzzle" games being unsatisfying and forgettable, on the level of sudoku like that other anon said. But I am of open mind and I feel I've been quite clear about what makes a "good" puzzle game, so if you've got any recommend for the "good ones", I'm all ears.
>>739360732i feel like this would have been 100 times funnier if you had just posted 'cool sokoban is an oxymoron' instead of explaining the joke.also that sokoban might not be 'cool' but it certainly is cool :3
>>739360280Man Cultist Simulator is so fucking ass as a game, the gameplay was unbearable in spite of everything else being top tier
>>739361085seeing as you mostly like story crap you'd probably like 999I wish you'd stop being such a blog posting avatar fag though.
>>739361140I think 999 is utter trash. The story was poorly written and obvious from the first room with Layton-like puzzle minigames (and that might be insulting to Layton) spread throughout. Finished, but did not play the rest of the series, and think so little of it I didn't add it to the chart because then I'd have to add similar trash like Danganronpa.>>739361138It's really bad to play, but the descent into madness is much more real than Book of Hours. Once it clicks, you get so into it you can look past the shit gameplay and "get" what you're doing, which just adds to the feeling.Absolutely peak writing, obviously.>>739361135ok.
don't even like puzzle games really and this thread is really interesting to me and fun to read. good work OP I like your autism
>>739360685I got to The Witness late and with ambient spoiler knowledge. Like I was completely expecting to use my lines on overworld stuff. And it turns out the vast majority of that is just a big fucking scavenger hunt. The aha of figuring out the gimmick also doesn't come if you know you're figuring out a gimmick. And if you realize the gimmick of a zone quickly, then the puzzles rarely felt special. My absolutely most despised zone was the temple with light and shadow alignment puzzles where all you had to do was stand around in different places. One of the other moments I particularly remember is solving like a dozen fucking puzzles in succession to make a bridge. Also, it's the only video game to ever give me motion sickness while playing it somehow. Something about the FoV I guess. I didn't think it was something that could happen to me before that.I appreciate the game if only for making me appreciate tighter puzzle games more.
>>739361085Putting random non-puzzle and/or garbage games like Cultist Simulator, Sensorium, Chants of Sennar, Tunic, Lorelei, Umineko, Golden Idol shows that you aren't interested in the genre. You have played only a handful of ACTUAL puzzle games and most of them are bad ones. What's the point of making a chart like this if you have no idea what is out there. I would have assumed it was bait if you weren't so full of yourself. I don't want to give you recs because you're a dishonest faggot.
>>739360280Have you played Mosa Lina? Its puzzles can't really be presented outside of the game's context, and so I don't know if they'd qualify as Cereal
>>739361306Bro Picross and Sudoku are closer to Golden Idol than they are to Sokoban
>>739361268>I think 999 is utter trash. The story was poorly written and obvious from the first room with Layton-like puzzle minigames (and that might be insulting to Layton) spread throughout. Finished, but did not play the rest of the series, and think so little of it I didn't add it to the chart because then I'd have to add similar trash like Danganronpa.>It's really bad to play, but the descent into madness is much more real than Book of Hours. Once it clicks, you get so into it you can look past the shit gameplay and "get" what you're doing, which just adds to the feeling.>Absolutely peak writing, obviously.Fuck off back to Twitter/Discord tourist, no one cares about your dishonest contrarian 'takes', we say what we believe to be true here because no one remembers who we are. Unless you're going to keep spamming your shitty image, which I would advise against.
>>739361285Thanks! :)>>739361306>um actually i dont like you so umyeah ok buddy you can stop reply now>>739361321I have, it didn't hold me for long, but it's conceptually interesting. Just wish they had a solvability check.
>>739355125>SMT3'S PUZZLE KID MINIGAME
>>739355867>sucking off some of the worst "puzzle" games ever shilledI know it's bait because of Umineko but I'll let all the other retardation pass since it rightfully shits on The Witness which is easily the worst game out of what's popular.
If you want pure puzzles just check out Simon Tatham's Portable Puzzle Collection.I agree that sokoban sucks though.>>739360280What do you think of puzzle games that are built around interacting with a singular object or objects and figuring out how they work? Stuff like the Room, Machinika Museum, etc.
>>739361993>Simon Tatham's Portable Puzzle Collectionah sweet I used to have this as an app, thanks man.
Also, this thread reminded me to grab TR49. I saw the trailer for it a while back and it looked like my jam but I forgot about it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEIyvjVQCAE>>739362053No worries. If I've got no internet and I'm on a break or something I'll open it up and do a few puzzles in it. It's great for that.
>>739361268>the story was obvious from the first roomwhat the?
https://www.increpare.com/>tfw Increpare just has a full ass website full of mini gimmick sokoban games and other miscellany/shitpostsSokoban haters look away. Though I was reminded of one particular rule discovery game he had which is not sokoban at all.https://www.increpare.com/game/gestalt_os.html
>>739361428I have literally no stake in you believing me or not. I just felt like talking about video games with people on the internet. Clearly some people resonate with it. That's enough for me. Go in peace, my friend. I just reposted the image multiple times because I'm working on it, but I think I'm done for now.>>739361993>Stuff like the RoomThey're neat! I actually have been meaning to play this entire series, but I forget where I stopped, and there were mobile/vr exclusive entries and... it just slid down the priority list.>>739362171>oh hey, I know we're in a life-or-death scenario right now, but isn't it wacky and crazy how these scientists did this experiment that shows you can transmit thoughts telepathically? just thought that was interesting, ahah.You ain't slick, buddy.
I want more games about figuring out large and complex systems, like industrial/mechanical ones.Something like where you're put in the seat of an alien spaceship and have to work out what each button does.
>>739359593>>739355867Void Stranger was one of the best game I have EVER played. Loved every bit of it, kept a journal for jotting down notes.VERY fun!!
>>739362287>thinks matrix fill in the boxes puzzles are peak but goes on to diss 999kek. you and all obra dinn/golden idol shitters are mouthbreathers
>>739355125>PUSHING BOXES IS NOT A PUZZLEBut pushing rocks is.
>>739355125What game is the 3rd screenshot? I just finished Isles of Sea and Sky and need a fix.
>>739355817I beat it.It's shit.
ATTENTION PUZZLE SOLVERS I'm working on a sort of puzzle game myself and I have a question: how do you feel about red herrings, or extra/useless pieces on a puzzle?Like I'll give the simplest example I could think of: imagine being given matchsticks of various sizes and you have to put them in a certain pattern like write a name or number. But you don't need ALL the matchsticks to get the correct answer. Do you think it's bad game design to have some redundant pieces?
>>739359665filtered
>>739362386Player0, I think. That is the game, btw. The game is the image of the game. It's a 0 player game, thus the name. I never bothered with it.
>>739362378great image
>>739362480I like them as long as they are rare.
>>739355867Where does ULTRANOTHING fit?
>>739362480I think it's good, if you're making the puzzle part of the real world (in that guy's pic, the left/bottom hand side). It makes more sense for there to be extraneous pieces in a real world situation.If you're just focused on puzzles to solve then no extraneous pieces.god tier is if the leftover pieces go towards some other secret puzzle later
>>739362480this is the only thing that remotely makes a puzzle. Otherwise you are simply putting the square in the square hole.This is called "noise" I believe.
>>739362480>The game is tightly designed with no red herringsgood>The game has puzzles with occasional red herringsacceptable, but I'll just feel like I found an unintended answer that uses less pieces probably>The game has red herring bloat everywhereshit>The game seemingly has useless pieces, but later on you engage on a meta-puzzle or unlock something that has you revisit past puzzles, and realize those pieces weren't useless after allkino of the highest degree
>>739362480Only good if they fit in the narrative.
>>739362480You need extraneous data in a puzzle, but they shouldn't feel like red herrings. Your challenge as a puzzle designer is to test the player's understanding of a puzzle mechanic/interaction without allowing them to solve it trivially with trial and error.
You should be able to solve thishttps://www.janestreet.com/connected-cities/
>>739362480All red herrings must have secret purpose, no ifs or buts about it. Random bullshit meant to waste your time is just that.
>>739362691Already did when it came out and popped up on Cracking the Cryptic.For anybody giving it a go, the wicked witch from the wizard of oz has a name.
>>739355125play star wars droidworks. now. I am no longer asking
>>739362763good channel. some play I yoinked it.I'm glad they also showed off thinkygames too.>>739362886feel like I got halfway through as a kid before I was filtered, very stilted game
>>739355939I met a player from a Fire Emblem threadWho said: "Two underwhelming offence statsOn a child unit...Near them, boss-kill fed,Half shrouded, a goth girl visage lies, whose smirk,And wrinkled lip, and sneer of yandere dread,Tell that its sculptor just made Tharja againBut with different hair, because her MotherIs a dancer whose growth rates are insane.And in a 4chan post these words appear:'My name is Rhajat!Azura, chief of onis:Look on my level up, ye Virgin, and despair!'Average stats remain. Round the hit-ratesOf that abysmal SKL, unreliably low,Her ‘okay’ defences can tank a hit, or two…”
Is Chess a puzzle game?
>>739363595no its just a competitive game.
>>739362480Just don't push it. There's no clear line, or I suspect it's different for everyone. Noise is fine. False data must either be recontextualised later, or be seen as a pest.>>739362560I do not know what it is but it looks like it has blocks so I will not bother at the moment.
>>739355125For me, it's sliding puzzles.Instant Alt+F4
>>739355125This was a fun portal spoof game and if you don't like it well fuck you.https://store.steampowered.com/app/1304610/Lab_Rat/
>>739360382no>>739360460Thanks. I thoroughly enjoyed Blue Prince so I probably should keep ignoring VS
>>739365767>I thoroughly enjoyed Blue PrinceI don't believe you.
>>739356516I think Blue Prints is neat, but crowning it the best puzzle game is silly. I do like Umineko being used twice.
>>739360607Trash games mixed with masterpiece games.
>>739362101Alright this is pretty fun.It's like a wiki walk in a weird mechanical wikipedia but you're matching titles in a scrambled database to entry codes using inference/context clues from other entries.
>>739355867I appreciate your OC but Blue Balls does not fucking belong in the Kino Zone.
Broken Sword 2 and 3 and all the others were awful for box puzzles to the point the developers (House of Tales) of The Moment Of Silence included a line when you tried to push this box that said "Oh never mind, who wants to push boxes anyway".
>>739357907I too hated Lingo.
I enjoyed Logic Bomb, took me around 40h to complete
>>739363595It's unironically closer to mobas/rts than puzzle games. It's all about learning tactics and the meta. Puzzle games are about thinking in the moment, while chess is about studying for hours before you even start playing.
>>739362480Going by portal 2 puzzlemaker:>Useless "elements" (cubes, buttons, lasers, etc) are not acceptable>Useless "geometry" (walls, portalable surfaces, windows, death pits) are acceptableI hope that makes it clear
>>739369882Chess960 is better than standard one anyway though I prefer fairy chess, especially asymmetric one
>>739355245How else do you design block pushing puzzles?
My biggest gripe with most Sokoban game is how slow it is to solve the puzzle.Puzzles should be fast to solve, always. If you know the solution, solving them shouldn't take more than a couple of seconds. The time consuming part should be thinking, learning, and messing around. If solving takes time, then I just get bored.>>739357286What bothers me with sokoban puzzles on non-sokoban games (Like blue prince and many zelda games), is that they are always way to easy, I don't even see the fucking point in having them, you don't even have to think.
Is it okay to play the Remakes of Mist and Riven?As a remake hater myself I despise the idea of playing a remake before the original, but I find the prerendered 3D point and click style of the originals so disturbing. Not being able control the camera makes me feel ill.
>>739371236Aren't they usually less of sokoban puzzles and more of checks for some ability?
>>739355817I brute forced the maze at the end. try as I did, I was unable to figure out wtf the 3 displays in each chamber was supposed to tell me for the correct maze path. also the sunken ship puzzle with sound was complete guesswork too, I don't believe for a moment a single person has ever heard the correct sound queues on that one.but yeah, it as a very good game, I think about it a lot...
In case you guys wanted to play 0player but didn't want to bother with bookkeeping it there's always thishttps://raymondliu777.github.io/0Player/It makes keeping track of what you did way easier,just keep in mind that it doesn't save anything and you can't Ctrl+Z
>>739360280The Talos Principle should damn near directly between meta and diegetic, and pushed half way to Cereal, only saved by the star puzzles.Idk where you would put the sequel or DLC's, but they should also be nearby.
>>739373384should be put damn near*I need to stop posting after pulling allnighters.
>>739371550no
I've been working on a puzzle game where you solve problems using causal loops. Despite all its flaws I can at least take pride in it not being a sokoban.>>739362480Red herrings are good if they have the purpose of challenging the player's assumptions to teach them new approaches, but you don't want them to bloat the problem space too much. You should always try to minimize how many different things the player can do as long as it doesn't affect the core of the puzzle - you can add as many wrong answers as you want as long as they look like they're almost correct.
>>739374950>I can at least take pride in it not being a sokobanSokobans are the platonic ideal of puzzle games though.
>umitrash fan dislikes actual puzzlesUmishit is the worst of all worlds. Shit writing and shit puzzles. But thousands of hours long so you can feel like you got your moneys worth of shit.
>>739355125I hate memorization "puzzles" so fucking much it's unreal
>>739355125Video games are fundamentally a problem-solving exercise. If you don't like solving puzzles then what you are looking for is a movie, not a video game. Hope this helps.
>>739374950>I've been working on a puzzle game where you solve problems using causal loops.Have you seen Loophole? I'm curious what's different about your game.
