>MMOs just needs to reinvent itself to become mainstream againIs he right?
>>739407417Probably. I feel like more than ever people are looking for online spaces to just waste time in instead of facing irl.But MMOs have been grinding away the social and hangout aspects for a while for whatever reason
MMOs need a fuckload of content so no western dev is going to touch them till they can use AI to produce a fuckton of content cheap and fast otherwise shit is just too expensive to produce.
>>739407417No, most MMO players chase the feeling of playing their first MMO when they were in their early teens but they are also burdened with decades of gaming experience so no new MMO can satisfy them long term. They'll play a new MMO for a couple of weeks (at best), get bored and then fuck off. It's impossible to satisfy them, which is why every new mmo dies shortly after release.
>>739407417MMOs are just a human hamster wheel and I'm glad they're dying
What MMOs are and what MMOs get used for are two very different thingsThey were invented, and are still used as, giant multiplayer chatrooms. The next successful MMO will be Second Life with stats
I just want an MMO that doesn't feel like the world resets every 20 seconds. I really wanted to like Elder Scrolls Online, but its just anti-immersive to have enemies respawning right on top of your every 15 seconds.
>>739407417Average joes are too hyper-aware of social dynamics for MMOs to ever come back.Nobody wants to have to be the oofy-doofy male filling a slot in a guild's roster while the females orbit around and privately VC with the guild leader.
>>739407721You do realize the argument put forth is that this needs to change right?
MMOs had the advantage of being large scale multiplayer games with communities and feeding gambling addicts.But those things are no longer exclusive to mmos and common in many games and many social media sites and apps do that too.MMOs had a time when they were the only game in town and now have to compete against endless games and the internet as a whole, their time in the limelight is over.Anyone that thinks otherwise is an idiot.
>>739407417People don't want MMOs, people want A MMO.They're not leaving the game where their everything and virtual friends are for some empty shit.
>>739407417MMOs are 'reinventing' themselves by being 5% different to WoW this time instead of 4%.Meanwhile you have actually different ones off in the corner like Runescape that remain successful to this day.I genuinely think that for the same budget as your standard WoW clone you could fund 20 different radically-different MMOs, and each would probably be half as successful as the WoW clone would have been.I'd be pretty excited if a new Neopets-like came out. Or, heaven forbid, something unique enough it couldn't be called an X-like.
MMO's can work but because of gold sellers you have to re-invent progression and have a better idea about how to reward players time, effort or skill. Overall though i find hilarious that the closest to a true evolution of the genre we have gotten was maplestory 2 which was literally just a bunch of social events that had ladderboard and forced people to socialize for cosmetics/economy like fall guys on an MMO box. Target vs combat was never the real evolution, the real evolution was that combat wasnt needed at all you could replace with fucking gwent and pokemon battles. The first one to develop a TFT/Tower defense MMO that play itself will re-invent the genre
>>739407417Why the FUCK would I want to play a mainstream MMO?Fuck the NPC goycattle sheeple
>>739407417The problem is that investors and players aren't interested in change, they're a cowardly and superstitious lot that prefer things to be comfortable and samey, hence the majority of surviving MMOs play like WoW these days. Games that tried to change things and go after different crowds have historically fallen in record time like Wildstar finding out you can't appease the raiders, or TERA and a bunch of Korean MMOs going after different combat if it's the one I'm remembering with like actual dodging and stuff but with server tics.Then we're stuck with the fact that people like Raph Koster are coming out for that phat retirement check after making stuff pre-WoW and claiming they're going to change the landscape by serving up the most lukewarm MMOs ever with stuff completely against the design of what made their original games so popular due to the morality and chance of chaos, since nowadays they want to reach as many people as possible without griefing being viable, despite that being HUGE in stuff like UO / EVE / SWG and early WoW.The only thing really left at this point is people making indie MMOs, but they usually don't sustain themselves or have a Jackencola on staff to fuck it all up to an astronomical degree like Project Gorgon did, and maybe the off-chance VR has a revival in the future that can jumpstart a new breed of Augmented Reality MMO or something, but otherwise, shit is deader than most of the players that played MMOs in their primes.
People want a third space and MMOs are digital third spaces. But so is Discord. And Discord is free. So every MMO has to convince young people to play it instead of using Discord.
>Join MMO>Need to communicate with people>Have terms of service breathing down your neck the minute you get frustrated and call someone a retardI'm not devoting 100s of hours to something that can be taken away. Put an ignore option in the game and fuck off.
Jack intentionally sabotaging City of Heroes because he was planning on getting everyone to move to Champions Online when Cryptic released it.But, Champions Online was absolute ass.NCSoft took way too long to pay him to go away, and then they made the even dumber move of EoS'ing City of Heroes & dissolving Paragon Studios because they bet on nu-anet's GW2. GW2 was even shittier than Champions Online.God I hate Jack. and NCSoft. And nuanet.
>>739407417They kind of did, instead of a big time sink a lot of games just made a "central hub" and you just dungeon dive without the grind. The problem is just like an MMO these games live or die by population and a lot of them sort of fall off.
>>739407721all video games are human hamster wheels
>>739408992Honestly this is a big point and people are never arguing it in good faith. I don't want to call everyone who crashes me a nigger, but if someone does something retarded I want to be able to say "are you fucking retarded" without them having a panic attack and making a reddit post about it where terminally online retards will harass the devs until they write a Pledge of Tolerance discord post.
>>739407417He's definitely rightThe problem is no company has the time or money to take a chance reinventing something that they might not get right and have it flop
>>739409052>an MMO without the massive partie just another lobby queuerdiablo 4 is more of an MMO than fellowship. I mean, it's not even close.
>>739407721We've gone through like five different genres worth of games replacing MMOs and dying for basically the same shitty reasons
I remember when I mentioned that an mmorpg should have many small type of game play loops that are mini game ish as core mechanics and for socially passing the time while you heal between fights. Some idiot was like 'that is so boring' I don't want to do that I want to solo max my game. You make combat a degree more skill based instead of memorization it makes these people seethe. Also there is the acceptance of combat with shitty ping but why not just have a dynamic que system then linked with the animations of your character? The fact is no new mmorpg will work unless you fundamentally change how battles are played out. I see no problem having fights be 50% slow on observation to widen the choice times between commands.
>ignore the entire golden age of mmos because i was young and didn't give a fuck about multiplayer games on the computer except club penguin>think about getting into one now>it's just FFXIV or WoW with nothing in-between and apparently nobody talks in them anymore so i might as well be playing a singleplayer gameThere was that one time City Of Heroes/Villains first got revived a few years ago and there were a bunch of people making threads about it, and I thought that was quite fun, but that's most likely dead now.I just want a half-fun MMO that I can make long-lasting broships in.
>>739409193You either adapt or don't make it, and taking the massive is a step in order to do it.
MMOs will never be good till we get a 100% fantasy sandbox that's just like RL and by that I mean completely fucking unfair.No moderation except banning hackers that fuck with the gamefiles.Otherwise no balance, no levelcap and power only gets gained through playing the game.Players can play as baddies that just want to grief or goodies wanting to be order jannies. Also players can create their own NPCs that do shit for them.The amount of lore players would create would be insane.But no everything needs to be themepark WoWslop till the end of time.
my favorite part about my childhood MMO was botting and trolling retarded boomers in teamspeakhow do we bring that back?
>>739409363Also permadeath and full loot like IRL obviously.
>>739409298You can still play one of the golden era MMOs on private servers. It won't be the same but they are still fun. P99 for EQ has a pretty chill and welcoming community in my experience.
>>739407417He is 100% right.
>>739409298The only one I'm slightly interested in is ESO because people are saying they're making big changes soon and it feels like the type of game that respects your time somewhat.
honestly there are still long running MMOs that are doing just fine, but only just fine. They have there niche and cater to that niche. But those niche's are defined by being more casual than a progressive raiding/gear treadmill MMO like WoW back in the day was, because the people that play MMO nowdays don't no life them anymore.
>>739409560ESO is cool and very casual, and they are making big changes to it. They also removed most if not all of the fomo in it recently.
>>739409610L2 and EQ 1x pservs say differently
>play tibia way back in 1999>walking around starter town>find a piece of paper>it's translated orc language for greetings>eventually start exploring>come across an orc>I type out the greeting>orc kills meI still remember to this day how bamboozled I felt by that.
>>739409673but those are not the norm now. The GW2/ESO types are.
>>739407417Someone might make a really good new MMO one day that would appeal a lot of people, but I can assure you, it won't be by the unholy cursed, rotten, genital mutilated people from the western nations.
The ultimate MMORPG would be a mix of Guild Wars 1 & Grenado Espada for me. The best way to remove the trinity is by making everyone capable of contributing towards it. Having combination attacks that you can control on command or with skill combo them with other players is the key. Minigames to pass the time during healing around camp behind stamina mechanics and have critical status effects that need to be healed properly out of combat. Combat status effects hurt in different ways. Your characters have fighting styles that affect your combat damage / evasion you set per fight to assist between solo and team style game play. The player is in control of a family. Player power is directly linked with NPCs you raise. If they die in a monster PvE wave or PvP siege player characters become permanently cursed with psychosis and revenge. Ultimate failure leads to corruption and permanent loss of character becoming a unit of the opposing side.
>>739409825well yeah because they do not understand what competitive games are fun. They only understand a childcare philosophy of everyone is a winner. The trick is to have skill based mechanics that make you want to improve towards a higher ceiling cap or that the journey is worth it. These people do not even understand what a gamer should be doing in a 10 second cycle. They have no business making games when they cannot even copy past formulas properly or understand why it worked in the first place
>>739407515>Probably. I feel like more than ever people are looking for online spaces to just waste time in instead of facing irl.The problem for MMOs is they found those online spaces. Back during the wow explosion youtube, social messaging, and netflix existed but those are absolute monsters now compared to then, and way more addicting than shitty MMO gameplay. I remember when a $15 wow subscription was extremely efficient entertainment. Now most social media is free
>>739409825Your post makes me think about the fact that we really can't have a good Western created MMO these days due to the prevalence of how everyone is somehow the "Chosen One" or very important in the world of the game all because they have wallet armor on their side, when older games were just like survival games these days and slapped us all into worlds to figure things out without an overlying narrative to hold people's hands on where to go or what to do. That's kind of another reason I can't see MMOs reinventing themselves these days, since so many genres have popped up and ate the MMO lunch with stuff as multiplayer games and Games As A Service model.>>739410001I don't know about that, since FFXIV is Japanese and found a ton of success by mostly catering to casuals and dumbing things down over time to make the game feel like a "single player MMO" for the mostly story-based game it tries to sell itself as nowadays, while also having a ToS so inane that just possibly offending someone could cause you to eat a temp ban or even permanent one depending on how the community feels about reporting you.
I'd like to see an attempt at removing the healer archetype and instead make all classes be responsible for their own healing. You could still have your priests and whatnot but they would be just as damage focused as a rogue or archer but maybe have party buffs instead of heals. It would be tank, dps and support instead of tank, dps and healer.
>>739407417What is reinventing the wheel?Ashes of Creation? We saw how that turned out
>>739407417>I think the idea that the MMO crowd doesn't exist ---What kind of retarded strawman is this? That the crowd exists is fucking obvious by how people can be observed to still play these games. No one thinks the crowd doesn't exist. It's that the crowd is comparably small and that it's not growing and is dying. MMOs likely will never see the peaks it once had before modern social media and modern messaging apps. But the MMO crowds that does exist, have this tendency, that MMO crowds always had, in that their proximity to other fans tends to reinforce or validate that ideas that make them and MMOs feel more relevant than they actually are. If you're surrounded by thousands of people who all play MMOs, all of a sudden you feel like MMOs are a huge thing unless you're able to mentally step back. And this is why MMOs have been trying so futilely to time and time again reobtain the heights it'll never ever attain again. The reinforcement mechanism within the MMO social spaces make the people feel like it's possible. But the reality of the situation is that both technological and social spaces dictate that it never will. Not to say that the game part of MMOs don't have any merit. But you'll never make no matter how much you tweak or mess with the design of the game part. Because the game design is not what failed. In the past people were hanging out in MMOs like they now do in discord rooms or twitter or leddit or whatever all the big sites and applications are nowadays. Tweaking with and messing with the game design is never going to bring that back.
>>739407417MMOs will never be good again because of 3 factors.>No lifers ruin pvp MMOs turning it into a meta sweatfest scaring off casuals so the company can't make money>RM trading/bots ruin pve MMOs by destroying the economy and achievement satisfaction so people just don't play>the company starts selling power, whales are stockholmed in but everyone else leaves.It's over /v/ros.
>>739410139several mmos have attempted this and it really never works
This looks like a tranny Harold Ramis.
>>739409718Can't reason with orcs anon...
>>739407741>and are still used as, giant multiplayer chatrooms.The majority of people now play MMOs single player and there's virtually zero interaction with other players in group content, unless you're in a progression guild or with friends.
>>739409560The only MMO I ever found that respects your time is GW2, and thankfully 4chan doesn't care about it so it gets ignored by the usual schizoid crowd.
>>739409663>They also removed most if not all of the fomo in it recently.really? when i played eso years ago i never understood why they had this cash shop of cosmetics and only had so few items up at a time when they could just have everything up all the time, it always seemed counterproductive for making money.
>>739410439Younger me didn't realise it was a player who wrote some bullshit on paper to trick players. The game has or at least had back then full loot drop when you died so whoever wrote that paper probably farmed gullible newfrens like me for the dead body loot.
>>739409663If I ever manage to stockholm-syndrome myself into enjoying ESO combat I'm sure it'll become my main game for at least a year
>>739410139It already exists! It's called Guild Wars 2.>But that doesn't count because I said so! :(Tongue my sweet juicy anus!
>>739407417>Trans Gabe Newell
>>739410509I tried gw2 but it just didn't click with me. I got the mounts and all that but I can't put my finger on exactly why it all just felt really meh to me. It's also obnoxious with all the locked cash shop boxes and keys.
>>739407417>WoW is proof that the MMO crowd still existsNo, it's proof that the WoW crowd exists. As evidenced by the fact the game has been dogshit for so many years yet they refuse to unsub
>>739407417I never worked with Jack Emmert, but I've had coworkers that worked with him and they all say he's a fraud who lied his way to senior positions which is why he never stays with one project for long because people always learn
>>739410616yeah it's just a shame that gw2 doesn't play very well, there are some solid ideas there
>>739407417The only way you could make a new mmo that manages to survive you would need>south korean style internet social ID that attempts to stops rmt and botting>limiting how much progression a neet/no lifer can make in a month compared to a normal player>stop fucking making the end game raids>focus more on pve and the social aspect of the mmo experience don't strangle your community to death with absurd ToS where someone saying bitch results in a week long ban>don't completely abandon pvp either give them some love just not nearly as much as pve gets because the majority of players will be pve>hire gms who will actually monitor the community>NEVER go public as a company because this will instantly result in judaistic parasites forcing max profit over the wellbeing of the player and the employeeNew worlds biggest issue was it was entirely dedicated to pvp endgame where every big pvp guild was filled with neets and the engine itself wasn't ever fully tested for large scale pvp with both sides spamming spells.
MMOs are going to remain niche from this point on until some new technology turns it into a novel experience again. I'm betting on when LLMs and general AI tech gets improved and optimized to the point where it can actually make the game world feel dynamic outside of hardcoded events and dialogue.
modern MMO gamers can't just have fun anymore, they need to meta minmax build guides and consult wikis to do everything ironically turning vidya games into a job.
>>739407417A Planetside 3 would get millions of players
>metagaming/datamining/social media/info aggregation didn't exist before 2010
Modern monetization strategies do not mix well with MMOs at all. WoW survives solely based on it's legacy, but it'll probably kill itself at some point rather than being taken out by a competing MMO
>>739407417MMOs simply cant exist in the age of datamining and metafaggotry
>>739412162It wouldn't even be that hard for MMOs to prevent datamining, at the utter least assets. It's just that nobody bothers with it.>new update downloads a ton of encrypted asset bundles>server sends decryption key when you actually need one of them>eventually send the keys to everyone and change the default download to unencrypted once they're no longer secretOr just make everything a web request to begin with, though only certain games can accept that degree of latency.
>>739407417we must return to first person shooter MMOs
>>739407417So what he thinks there is a crowd that craves a new mmo his was just dogshit?
>>739407417Mark my words: The next big MMO will be a game like WoW meets Guild Wars 2 with VR support. The content will be perennial, with reasons to keep revisiting all corners of the game world, and the VR support will include both 1st person and 3rd person views.
Don't worry guys Capcom is working on a monster hunter MMO, it's gonna be kino just wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wa
The main flaws MMOs will have to overcome to be relevant again is microtransaction slop. Too many MMOs are viewed as cash cows where you can charge the players a sub fee, $30-60 for each expansion, and then leech $10-50/month out of them selling stuff like remote bank access or gold or whatever. That has to die for an MMO to succeed.
>>739407417Broadly speaking, no.mmos ARE mainstream, but the market is saturated. Much like every other genre of multiplayer game, there is room for one big one, and one less big secondary one, and we still have final fantasy 14 and WOW, and those probably aren't going anywhere. Now in order for a NEW mmo to go mainstream, yes, it has to do something wildly new and exciting in order to get people interested. Nobody is gonna give a shit about MMO #130297 if it is just "what if it is like WoW but our IP instead."
>>739412930They already did that in Asia from what I remember, and it was many years ago. Isn't it long dead?
>>739407721Bro says this as he loads up his gacha dailies
>>739407417They don't have the budget or the talent to put out the kind of MMO we really want. Or if they do, we can't afford to pay what they'll be asking for it.
daily reminder
>>739407417>>739411017He's not a complete fraud, but yeah, back when City of Heroes was still dev'd by Cryptic, literally everyone hated the fucker - both players and devs.Champions Online was originally going to be a Marvel licensed MMO, and he fucked that up too so he had to fall back to somebody that'd sell an IP to him for pocket change.Guy's a complete clown.
>>739412992>Those probably aren't going anywhereFF14 is almost dead anon. Player numbers are plummeting and people are so fucking bored of the classes they can't stand it, meanwhile the changes the devs are making are to remove button bloat with no real mechanical nuance. The story fell flat on its ass after endwalker too, so it's been like 1.75 expansions worth of complete shit. If the new expansion doesn't succeed, SE might go under entirely, it's THAT bad. The market for 2nd place is up for grabs, but it has to be horny enough for the ERPers to flock to it
Come play FFXI with me bros
>>739407721>anon discovered bread and circuses
>>739407417Of course he's right, but WoW poisoned the well and retards think all MMOs have to be tab target themeparks.Anyway, MMOs like Rust and Foxhole are doing pretty good.
>>739413645I would, but I've beaten it after playing it over 15 years and check in off and on for over 22 years now. The only thing really left is grind for the sake of the grind, and buddy, I'm ground out by this point with all the stuff they've added to XI over the many years. I'm just logging on daily for the free campaign, no idea what to really do beyond free Gobbie Box items, then check to see if Matsya fish are 50k again after some greedy ass nip paid 100k for all of them about a month ago out of the blue and none have sold since, then I just log out and feel a bit empty inside since I can't reconnect to XI like I used to because I have no real purpose in it after beating the storyline and getting R15 REMA in the past.
>>739407417Make a deal with Discord to integrate servers and their creation into the game itself with some additional useful toon base Discord doesn't give you to incentivize staying in game.We aren't getting the old internet back, but the new cans till be utilized properly.
>>739413575That's what actually happened to FPS games. The problem wasn't aimbots, it was autoaim and movement being dumbed down and then stripping the gameplay loop by reducing combat and increasing downtime by replacing the whole thing with running around looking at the floor for loot.Same thing with racing games, you don't do much racing and the games are more like car gacha.
>>739407417It's because of half assed games like New World that the genre is dying. The only thing New World proves is that companies will eventually give up on the product, meaning less and less people will want to give new mmorpgs a try. Why the fuck would anyone want to start investing time and effort into a new mmorpg that might shut down within a year? This is why WoW exists and is still popular, people knows it won't go anywhere, so if you get the itch to play an mmorpg.. you go play one of the WoW versions.That's just the truth and everyone knows it
How would you fix the problem of the big world always becoming redundant when every endgame action is made through menus and teleportation. Only bot gatherers need the world for crafting materials you can buy from the auction house.
In my mind, a lot of Helldivers 2's success came from how spectacular the gameplay was, in the most literal sense. Bodies flying everywhere, massive amounts of firepower coming from enemies approaching in huge numbers. It made for good clips. People want to play games where they see cool shit happening. I think an MMO action game like an MMOFPS where you're capable of huge spectacular battles definitely has potential to market itself if the game is actually good, it's just that nobody really wants to try because they're unproven, unpolished as a concept and expensive to make.
>>739407417MMO's are already mainstream. What he's arguing for is for a branch of MMO's that basically aren't MMO's anymore while giving the example of a mildly successful MMO.
>>739413575>console players get aim assist in pretty much every fps
>>739407417Discord and raidfags killed MMOs. Let it go.
>>739414000its almost like making games for the largest possible audience makes them completely shit.
How did the French manage to make the best MMORPG of 2026?
>>739407721they used to be chatrooms with minigames but rotations and dps meters ruined all hope for a quality mmorpg ever again.
>>739407417EEEMMMMEEERRRRTT!!! Don't think I haven't forgotten how you butchered the customizability of characters in City of Heroes before launching! You thought your audience was insipid children that couldn't be trusting with selecting a power combination to play your game. You posited that they would be inclined to make insanely busted and insanely useless builds, so you handheld us with the restrictive archetype system. Why you never gave your players the benefit of the doubt to live their life in City of Heroes the way they wanted, as useless or over powered as they could dream up. Well fuck you, and take another UP YOURS for screwing over Star Trek Online too. Also as a reminder, superheroes had their height of popularity in the last few decades, and there was no cape MMORPG on next gen platforms to cater to that passionate crowd. Money left on the table!!
>>739414318dofus?is it actually good?
>>739414439What part of "best MMORPG of 2026" don't you understand?
>>739407721The fact this is such a controversial opinion is comical. We are long since past the point where MMO and Mulitplayer slop has had any cultural relevance outside of simple consumption. Once upon a time, WoW had massive impacts on gaming, with countless developers fighting each other to make the next closest imitation, or to capture WoW's gameplay in a compelling single player experience. Same could be said about CoD, with develooers trying to make Michael Bay esk cinema in video games. Comics were made, people made skits, music, hell, they'd even be referenced in movies and television, all in worship of these games.When was the last big MMO released? Outside of WoW classic, when was Blizzard relevant in a positive light? What about CoD? Or Activision in general? Outside of porn of course, which is just peak debauched consoomerism.Can't help but feel gaming is dying, and I couldn't be happier. Even among gamers, it seems the well is drying up.
>>739414164there's probably more of a market for a massive pve game in that area, imagine helldivers but with 100s of divers against 100k hoards of aliens and in massive maps where you have to defend multiple areas.
>>739407417Why not?The reason MMO:s have died are numerous, but nothing complicated1. MMO:s stagnatedThey essentially copied each other too much, mostly WoW, though2. New MMO:s were cashgrabsAlmost every new MMO in the last 20 years was released to make a quick buck - they shit out a halfbaked game with a cashshop for cosmetics, or even gacha cosmetics, and then they'd live a few years at best before shutting down3. New MMO:s just don't CARE to innovate or competeThey accept that WoW & FFXIV are #1, they recognize the raw amount of content these titans have developed over the course of decade+These devs simply don't want to take on that GARGANTUAN task of offering more than the rulers of old.The only way new games can ever surpass the old ones are by having old ones essentially off themselves (WoW certainly has been doing this on purpose)The only other option aside from having the best ones in the market commint sudoku is simply being better, or more innovative.People tried to beat them with graphics - nope. Didn't work.People tried to beat them with sexualization - nope. Didn't work.People tried to beat them with better gameplay - nope. Didn't work.
>>739414439there's a /v/-/vm/ guild with like a dozen people going on for over a year now
>>739414289Correct
>>739414615Yes, that's been a running idea of mine for many a year now. I'm certainly not the only one though I take it.Networking demands make it not feasible at the scale you'd want it to be unfortunately.
I played ffxi back in school with the mates. No chance in hellnid waste so much time. Good times
>>739407721life is just a hamster wheel. there's no point to any of this shit
>>739412337all action mmos are bad
The From Software MMO is going to save the genre
just remake this with modern tech and a marketing budget
MMO's are only still populated because nigga's treat them as a chatroom with a game attached to them
>>739407417MMOs like WoW are dead and never coming back and that is a good thing. >boring grinding and nothing else to do>players are too serious about min maxing grinding>rpgs are old and lame if it’s not something like dragons dogma or dark souls>absolutely no reason to be MMO anyways since no one has any reason to interact with each otherThe only “MMOs” that is possibly marketable is something like Roblox, old school TF2 custom servers, Minecraft servers etc>fun mini games that can be rotated out>no grinding just playing and chatting>cosmetics should be plentiful and free>just a place to shoot the shit and hangout while you play gamesI don’t think the social aspect of video games is positive in current year for too many factors. Stuff like discord, companies making sure people don’t say no nos over VC, and all kinds of new internet based laws make it impossible.
i think maplestory 2 had a chance if the devs actually gave a fuck but they blew it
>>739415585>shitty shallow gameplay>horrible netcode, laggy as fuck when there were more than 10 people fin a zone ighting a boss>literal pay to win / pay to progress / pay for utilities>stupid blockworld that drastically neutered the devs creativity and art choices>tiny ass map instances that you're constantly switching>soulless quests>SHITTY publisher>greedy developerIt had charm, but no, it was doomed from the start
>>739407417The issue with this entire sentiment is that it wont be reinvented for the fans but for the company to use it as a cash cow with a fucktonne of Microtransactions.The only way an MMO can work needs to follow the blueprint of early WoW, and by this I mean it needs to come from an establish universe with a clear direction.For Example: A StarGate MMO makes complete sense, you have multiple races that cannonically are good at different things and each expansion could just be a new gate address. You even have different types of humans due to being seeded across the stars. Each race has different but parralel class systems. Humans are an 'all rounder' and professions could be picked up from other races who specialise in certain aspects, like a tech tree for the Asgard and that hand thing the Goa'uld use to heal themselves or damage others.Another great example of an IP that could work would be a Pokémon MMO that starts off in Kanto and then each expansion is just the later games, You could layer the world the way WoW does to limit it to say 250 players per layer so it doesn't feel dead, add in a trading depot and some professions / farming and BOOM, new Billion dollar MMO.Comapnies look at an MMO and think 'how can we make it appeal to everyone' instead of 'how can we make this both sustainable in growth and have evergreen content that will always be relevant'. A game for everyone means a game no-one wants.The largest issue with MMOs right now is the writers all have an agenda, the companies are afraid to have any unsanctioned opinions and the playerbase feel both entitled and hard done by. Any new MMO has to break all 3 of these issues before launch.A game where you can speak your mind without IRL threats or slurs but plenty of profanity, a robust and fair player driven economy with very little to no management by the devs and a release cycle that isn't rushed but isn't lacking either.I love MMOs but one of them scratch the itch anymore.
>>739407417Mmos will never be mainstream again.It was novel to interact with players all over the world in 00s and early 10s but now it's normal.
gachas technically replaced mmo's for normalfags just with one less m
MMOs need to be a vibrant social space, more than ever. Too much time is focused on progression, the grind, game design which negatively impacts player behaviour and hurts the social element.
>>739414615That Starship Troopers shooter is the closest thing to that concept that I can remember seeing and it's only got 16 players per match.
>>739407417Oblivion character looking ass
>>739407417replaced by daily login gacha shit on a six week content dripfeed
>>739415954its a shame that's completely dead, had a good concept but poor execution
Literally no game will ever socially flourish as long as Discord is the norm.>Buy game>Install>join guild>join discord>stop playing>.....>the discord is now 90% non-gaming
>>739415832I think the problem is that at the heart of the issue that the best way to encourage social interaction is to remove convenience to force players to communicate and organise themselves (e.g. not having a matchmaking system for dungeons or whatever), but your typical modern player is addicted to convenience and gets annoyed when a game forces them to do more work before they can start playing whatever piece of content.
>>739407515I kinda agree, yeah. There's no way in the current day of government overreach and censorship in the name of 'protecting children' that it would be allowed to happen but MMOs need to turn into a social game first and foremost in the sense that you should be making friends, joining active guilds and be forced to communicate with people to play them. They should be about carving out a fake life for your character or whatever.
>>739407417Why the fuck this guy looks like an older pirate software.
>>739416202i feel like the easiest way to do it is make it so you actually gain extra xp when you are in a party, for example you gain maybe 10% more xp for each unique class in your party.
>>739407417they take up too much time and effort
>>739407417They need to being back scamming, drop parties and wildy - THAT is what made a living, thriving online world.
>>739407417I mean, he's not wrong. Problem is that's a HUGE "just" you need to somehow solve.
>>739407721They got replaced by gachas which are worse and making more money than they ever did.
MMOs used to have a place as specialized social environments but now people get to argue and fight with and groom random retards on social medias, vrchat, twitch and discord now without having to share skype names first, and now you can just play other multiplayer games to deal with the gameplay part, because the PC gaming landscape is so full and rich now compared to the pre-Dark Souls era where MMOs were more common and widespread. If anything, the big problem now is that the pool of people that you can interact with now is so diluted that its harder to find people to connect with because there are less common threads and shared goals even amongst people playing the same game or with the same hobby. An MMO now would have to be a highly specialized social space where it's a lot easier for people to interact other common goals, but most importantly it has to be done with high frequency while not being frustrating for people who want to play independently, which is kind of an oxymoron. It's even difficult to get players to cooperate to find in-game secrets now because every game gets datamined before maintenance even ends after a new patch.It's all quite ironic however once you realize that the super idealized World of .hack//GU fits all these needs quite elegantly, aside from the lack of a tangible end goal for PVE players. Obviously a lot of other aspects could be polished up and progression could be improved, but it's a decent skeleton to work off of, even if a lot of it only works because its a work of fiction.
>>739413289Depends on your definition.>FrontierMade by their COG division as what started as a PC port of Dos with a paid subscription model; only as much of an MMO as having large player hubs and long-term grinding goals outside of hunts, which remain 4-man affairs - even with Raviente, and some monsters are still solo-only (Monoblos, Lunastra). Subscription numbers dropped sharply after the introduction of G Rank and at around that time other F2P competitors worth their salt like PSO2 were propping up, only really getting temporary larger boosts when new weapons were introduced. Absolutely P2W, had short-lived KR and TW servers to go with their JP one before bringing back a new TW server by GG that covered SEAniggers and eventually lagged behind a bit. More or less ran out of steam after 12 years, probably not profitable enough after cornering themselves with Zenith monsters and ridiculous power creep for hunters.>MHOOfficial, but made and published by Tencent. China-only and way more all over the place, and late into its life began to take early Frontier monsters instead of making original content, implying some creative meddling on Capcom's part. Reached EOL before the former in the same year.
>>739407417sounds stupid, doing that it becomes a different genre (that probably already exists too)
>>739407417I like these completely out of touch retards because they always create the most extraordinary flops and then sit in the burning ruins of feces still utterly unable to comprehend that the people playing wow are not "MMO players", they're wow players, whales that will never leave the game no matter what. And yet people like the guy in OP who will always make some shit for an imaginary market that doesn't exist.
>>739407417How do even pick an audience for MMOs these days?If you pick 'MMO players' you get WoWfags who will tell you to make a better WoW and quit your game after a month even if you do it. If you people non-MMO players get people who will tell you their idealistic idea of an MMO that sounds fun in their heads but is actually a game they wouldn't play.Also both groups will want a game that's either F2P or B2P with no cash shop or subscription somehow so good luck figuring out how to make the game sustainable, much less turn a profit.
>>739417589>Also both groups will want a game that's either F2P or B2P with no cash shop or subscription somehow so good luck figuring out how to make the game sustainable, much less turn a profit.As someone that's gotten into 14 recently the cash shop being so barebones and shitty is such a weird mystery to me. Like why is there not 50 times the amount of cosmetic shit or stuff like minions in there? Why does shit like league or MTG Arena have like 10 times more interesting cosmetic shit than it? Shouldn't that be the bread and butter of an MMO?Feels like an easy ass money maker
>>739417725As a former 14 player its because the Cash Shop is run by a different group from the main game that has to push the main 14 team to give them shit to put in there, while the main team wants to put that shit in the game itself as grinding rewards.Its the needs of a subscription model vs the needs of a microtransaction model with the subscription guys running the show while being forced to give something because microtransactions are still very profitable.
>>739418050Actually that's pretty reasonable and cool if most of the good stuff is obtainable via in-game grinding.
>>739417725another reason is because they dont put resources into cosmetics other than the bare minimum for new contentit seems that may be changing though, especially with 7.5 having a lot more than usual datamined
>>739409091Most end. An MMO is a hamsterwheel five miles long made with 500 feet worth of material.
>>739418153>>739418210For context, the way most gear works for fashion is that you have a new gear set per type of content for each of the major roles in the game (Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Caster, Healer) with higher difficulty versions getting different colors or other unique variations with a mount dropping as a reward from the highest tier content.This is the bread and butter of the cosmetic system with all other items coming from other content in similar ways or being a one off items as a reward for doing various quests.
I don't care about new mmos because they all fucking suck dick and balls because they're gay and cucked.I only play runescape, mostly because it's just straight enough to be tolerable.And I'm autistic as fuck.
What do MMO players want, besides the public execution of Tigole Bitties?
>>739418398why not play an actual autism simulator game that' would probably hit harder than any MMO would
Anyone play Project Gorgon? I've been enjoying it a lot so far
>>739418440I also play path of exile.
>>739407417All someone needs to do is make WoW with a Genshin skin and it'll be huge.Sure, it will be slop, but it will be popular slop.
>>739407417Only MMO worth playing is CrossWorlds and Lea is my mute wife.
>>739407417
>>739415330yeah I'd play the fuck out of an AO remake/ spiritual successorjust gotta avoid the dogshit wow-style expansion that ruined the unique original feel of the game and focus on the main planet and the funny janky skill systems instead
>>739407417Coming from the people that enshittified STO and Neverwinter, that's pretty funny. I genuinely can't think of any company less deserving to drop such a line.
>>739407417>cryptic buys itself out>brings back all the old people that sucked, including the worst community manager to ever exist in human history for Star Trek Online>starts talking about reinventionlol what a joke
>>739407417MMOs need to put resources into all aspects of their design they haven't touched in decades and they need a consumer-base unwilling to eat shit if you hope to see them improve. Many MMOs pick one thing they're going to focus on like Blade & Soul with combat, D&DO with enemy AI and ESO with quest writing and design but they autopilot for everything else in the game. If reinvention means not doing that, sure the genre is ready.
>>739407417No, he's not, you can't replicate the early internet thirst for communication. Reinvent MMO = makes AAA MMO, without repeating and half-assed shit, and it's impossible
mmos should be about human interaction, not grinding levels and best sets of equipment
>>739418398>And I'm autistic as fuck.We know
>>739407840Does it? MMO players love their hamster wheels and the last few remaining MMO publishers are happy to cater to them and eke out a meager living. If you change anything about MMOs then the MMO players will scream and shit and piss all over themselves and there's no guarantee that the normalfags will rush in to take their place. They're stuck in a similar situation to Diablo-likes, where the target audience is nothing but retards who want the same slop they've been eating for thirty years fed to them over and over forever.
>>739419006Tell that to metafags, dataminers, and other wiki obsessers.
To be, whole fun of MMO was exploration, random parties, dungeon runs, discussion about quests/builds/etc, non-forced social interaction that would come naturally. These aspects are pretty much dead in modern MMOs - Discord killed all in-game communication and guilds (fuck Discord), data miners and minmaxers finds out everything and optimise everything within minutes after release (with everyone around expecting you to follow and even gets mad when you don't), dungeons are largely abandoned in favour of "raids" that take way too much time (optimal dungeon run ends within an hour - enough to have some fun after work or do few runs in succession if you have more free time, similar mechanic to online matches in RTS games that ends in 20 minutes or MOBA that takes either 30 or 60) and there is no reason for people to form parties anymore.GW2 and TESO did something in this matter (no kill stealing and focusing on whole experience rather than "muh endgame", level scaling) but it's still not enough. I'm afraid MMOs are truly dead.
>>739407417This guy's a dipshit. City of Heroes and Champions Online were both abhorrent games kept on life support by character customization.
>>739419051that would be human interaction
>>739419042>If you change anything about MMOs then the MMO players will scream and shit and piss all over themselvesReminds me of whole GW2 drama - metafaggots would rush to final zone and complain about having "nothing to do!" or "only one dungeon!" when in reality they were supposed to just enjoy whole process from first to last level and all dungeons are level scaled so they had all of them to play, not just the last.
>>739407417Yes, the grinding MMO formula is dead. It exists only for WoW and OSRS that are like dementia patients on hospice, waiting to die once their autist minority fans have had their fill. There will never be a new one that is successful. Kids don't want it, and you need the kids. The retard kids are the lifeblood of the genuine MMO experience. Trying to follow that grind path is what killed all the newer releases. They have to find a way to make an MMO that isn't about grinding when that's all it ever was about. I will go out on a limb and say the next big MMO will bear some resemblance to Planetside faction conquest except versus CPU, and there will be a strong resemblance to social lobby exploration games like second life and vrchat, except you will be a specific character class instead of a random placeholder avatar person. In general it will be a multimedia facilitator like vrchat, second life, roblox, fortnite. There will be things to pursue and technically grind for, but the necessities of your character will be easily accessible while also being "temporary" assets, such as in a shooter where you drop your weapons on death or swap items out on the fly. The next big MMO will have high value items that can be accessed by anyone as well as lost by anyone. That is my broad overview, of course it would go much deeper in things like player mechanics, itemization, environmental sandbox elements. It would feel like a real RPG in the same sense that the old MMOs used to feel like real RPGs, by utilizing the modern tech at our disposal to make the deepest realest world experience possible. Not a clone of crusty old shit.
>>739407417the co-op friend slop, survival crafting, etc has taken the place of mmos
>>739419006Second life already exists.
>>739419856Second life has too much jank, which is a shame because it's the closest to what an MMO should be, which is wall to wall sex stores and everyone paying money to look as hot as possible for ERP.
>>739407417>Is he right? The enjoyment derived from playing an MMORPS is directly proportional to the quality of the players as people, so if you don't enjoy their company, the game doesn't matter because the main content in mmos are other players, not the actual in-world content. Why? Because MMORPGS are parallel societies, and they mimic real world human interaction almost perfectly. The less you interact with others in the game, the less you value them because they're not necessary to the enjoyment you derive from the game(due to game design discouraging needing other players) and so you create social distancing in a genre which has as its bread and butter social interaction, otherwise why call it a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game?
>If you want PvP you play a dedicated PvP game like CoD, Fortnite, LoL etc>If you want loot and raids you play a looter shooter or RPG like Destiny 2 or Diablo 4>If you want story you play a narrative focused single player game >If you want good combat, whether turn based or action, you're also best off with a single player or limited multiplayer game>If you want sandbox you play an early access survival crafting game>If you want management type play you play a strategy game or something like Animal Crossing or The Sims>If you want minigames you play Roblox MMOs do it all, but they do each thing worse than the games dedicated to just doing one thing well. Most people want one thing done well, rather than it all done meh, so MMOs will always have very niche appeal.
>>739416202Everyone hates this because it just turns into "go find a guild on discord" and you have to play faggot politics. I just want to play the damn game. For socialisation to be fun it has to be relaxed and non-mandatory like star mining in OSRS.
>>739414439I mean what do you want out an mmo?has community, activate player driven economy, big world, active pvp, valuable crafting, etcdofus pretty much does everything anyone who wants to play mmos wantsbut there is one big caveat.its turn based, so if you can't stand that, you can miss out an incredibly good mmo and one of the best to have existed.
>>739416232That in game social aspect seems impossible these days, a good recent example of it is ashes of creation. 2 months after the first alpha2 launch everyone had already retreated to their discord circle jerk groups and you couldn't engage with people in the game world anymore as people just ignore you and organize all of the required grouping up/trading and hanging out out of game. The first month an a half was great though...A part of it is the over reaching chat moderation in games, people don't want to risk their accounts by getting reported so they don't use it and the world seems dead/full of npcs as no body interacts with each other..
>>739408884Discord is a terrible third place.
>>739407417No one who looks like that is right about anything.
>>739407417Yes and no.MMOs cannot continue in their old state because MMOs have specific player and activity requirements for those sorts of worlds to work. Games like Anarchy Online were awesome, but a dwindling population with time resulted in the closure of different subway entrances and an almost entirely crippled world PvP/guild city building system.But also, people have readily and repeatedly pointed out that they prefer the old MMO format. People hate reinvented MMOs. People are constantly hosting classic private servers or pushing devs to release them. To say MMOs need to be reinvented is the first step on a road to making a game nobody ever wanted.The challenge is that you have to make an old style MMO with just the correct number of conveniences to retain players and a way for the game to perpetuate even if player counts get low (or if player counts end up top heavy). Frankly, I like how DDO handles it, with players buying NPC mercenary contracts to compensate for playing lower level content alone.
Good luck getting an MMO that>doesn't have a publisher trying to force in microtransaction bullshit>deals with bots>doesn't ruin the community with censorship>has real content the whole time instead of 5000 hour grind for a yellow hat type bullshit to pad the play time>doesn't feature bloat raids and bosses so they become totally disconnected with the quests and absurdly difficult to the point they don't even feel like an RPG at all>doesn't arbitrarily force you to find a group to clear content nobody has done for years>doesn't have everyone stuck in trannycord instead of talking in gameOn top of all the regular issues of requiring good gameplay, writing, art direction, graphics, balancing, etc.
MMOs will never be mainstream again because the ones that are actually good require you to socialize which is kryptonite to the modern gamer. Good luck convincing a player to ask for buffs from an Enchanter or Bard. Let alone asking a Necromancer to summon a corpse. Hell, the Monsters & Memories devs are only expecting a steady 2-3k subs and nothing more. This is a dead genre for people in their mid 30s and above. Could you imagine a streamer like Asmongold or Pikaboo getting on the boat and reacting to that? Peak is just unable to respect your time.
>>739420692This is just because your social group sucks. ngl that's a reflection of how empty you are.
>>739410295Anon, the message of that article was that there's still massive untapped revenue in MMO space and it's worth the risk of investment. It wasn't written for you (or any other gamer).
>>739407721>le edgy sophistry comment Here let's apply that to everything>Work is just a human hamster wheel and im glad they're dying>Relationships are just a human hamster wheel and im glad they're dying>Existence is just a human hamster wheel and im glad they're dying
>>739407705Why do the now early teens fail to sustain these mmo, though?Could this be that something soil the experience?
>>739416427Gachas are their own thing with their own playerbase far removed from humanity.
>>739420623>everyone had already retreated to their discord circle jerk groupsWhat the fuck is wrong with these people? Are they some abominable amalgamation of social reject and a normalfag?
>>739407515>But MMOs have been grinding away the social and hangout aspects for a while for whatever reasonBecause whales are mostly solo spergs and they're easy targets.
>>739407721they got replaced by jobs simulators
>>739407417If they somehow made it fun again I'd be all over it. Most MMO's feels like a second job and if you fall behind you're in the B team for life
>>739421817Discord, or any other specialized messaging app for that matter, is infinitely better for organizing trades/events than the vast majority of in-game tools. That's just efficiency.
>>739407417it takes modern bloated hack devs up to a decade to release a linear movie game how do you think something as big and complex as an mmo can be created in this environment?
>>739407417still think guildwars2 holds up to this day, horizontal progression, very easy to get to endgame and then you just farm legendaries/cosmetics.
>>739407721>they're dyingThey're still as popular as they ever were, they're just not pulling Fortnite/Roblox numbers so people screech that they're dead.
>>739422385What built-in messaging systems lack that people are running to Discord?
>>739409098the nigger problem isnt a real one.I have angered so many spergs who flooded my whispers with their asshurt and all I did was write "lol" and blocked.problem solved. been solved since the 90s.anybody who asks for more is a bad actor who is out to control you.we are at the point where Square Enix are banning people for shit they said outside of the game. its insane.
>>739407515In osrs you can talk with most randoms and they usually respond. But as a new player in FFXIV when I try to talk to anyone they never respond in any way, probably all afk or in discord. I think it's about culture, zoomers don't really play osrs so osrs community is still in the actual game
>>739422948>Zoomers don't really play osrsNeither does the playerbase, the game is fucking Cookie Clicker.
>>739409363thats just RUST and RUST is shit.
>>739407417Yes. MMOs are pretty much a stillborn genre. It died a few years into its developing years and settled into WoW’s themepark mode, which we have been getting served for the last 20+ years
>>739422762Chat history, being able to tag groups of people, different chat channels
All a new MMO would have to do to be incredibly successful is not have egregious, predatory monetisation, and not pander to the woke faggot homosexual tranny audience. That's it. That's all they have to do to be GOTYAY. The gameplay could even be mid and it would be fine. BUT FOR SOME FUCKING REASON DEVS CANNOT JUST HELP THEMSELVES!!! AAAAAHHHHHHH SAVE ME HITLER!!!
>>739407705no i dream of highly sexualized MMO with characters like HIT2 and lots of customization and flashy acton combat, BDO was close but pearl abyss changed their tune on monetization around elgacia.
>>739407681>MMOs need a fuckload of content so no western dev is going to touch them till they can use AI to produce a fuckton of content cheap and fastShould just combine MMO and NWN style toolset/DM tools to lets players produce the content. Too bad that's even less likely than AI being used to create endless content.
>>739423221Not sure how much it is useful in actually playing the game, but I can see the appeal.
>>739423269>elgaciao, kamaslavyia, same thing desu, thematically
>>739407417incentivise simple to start missions in-game that are much easier with 2 or more players. it should remove the need for discord
Back in the early days, big part of the appeal of MMO's was the fact that you were always playing and connecting with other people, social media wasn't big back then. That factor is gone now
>>739407721>>739418237>Most end. An MMO is a hamsterwheel five miles long made with 500 feet worth of material.And other games "ending" is just you replacing one type of hamster wheel with another.All video games are like this in the final analysis: digital sandboxes where your accomplishments do not translate to real life. You need to cope about the nature of "gaming" itself, if you think this hamster wheel line is a successful indictment of MMOs. This indicts all video games.
>>739423523go watch paint dry bro it's pure distilled wheel
>>739422827This, a simple "lol" or "why are you angry haha" or even just a ":3" will anally annihilate people just as often, if not moreso, since they know they can't win like a bitch-ass rat by reporting you.
>>739423221All of that is compartmentalizing the communication to smaller and smaller groups and then people complain that they feel lonely in MMOs, have no one to play with and get bored of them. No one knows anyone but their already close friends and when one quits everyone leaves with them.
I just play on Project Epoch wow - a true classic+. Not gonna wait for blizzard to release their shit in years to come when they don't care to even give it a proper team
>>739413575Trvth nvke right thereJust look at classic wow, supposedely a return to classical MMO elements and the playerbase just stripped them away all over again
>>739423589I like gaming and playing video games, what I'm saying is they're all varying degrees of hamster wheel by nature. For example: Wasting 80 hours gaming in a month with a bunch of smaller games that end early, or one MMO, is still 80 hours regardless. Trying to claim that this is substantively any different is fucking asinine and retarded.
>>739423506I remember sitting inside Crushbone Keep throne room, clearing out the spawns, then someone would come train K'vinn on the entire group, a named dark elf who was much higher level than the zone he was implemented in. There was also Sergeant Slate wandering the East Commonlands, the Eastern Commons Tunnel was the trading hub, but evil aligned characters were hostile in Freeport, and Neriak, the home of the dark elves, was just one zone away. It also mattered who you worshipped, as far as faction hostility. This was the basis for WoW reputations. I also remember patiently waiting to get into groups, sitting behind them til a spot opened up. I built up a reputation as a warrior who would tank public raids and epic weapon quests, joining a multi-guild open raiding scene that often conflicted with server drama vs the top guilds. We had a community shitlist for ninja looters and serial trainers. When it came time to farm my own epic, no one helped me. All those countless people I helped, the open raids, the long nights exp grinding. They used me. I was an HP sponge with a taunt button that said yes when I gained nothing for it. So I ended up applying to an "uber guild" and they MQ'd full NToV plate armor, gave me a primal weapon drop, and they had already cleared Warders so they also helped me farm VP and gave me a cobalt bracer for a clicky. That group took me to DAoC, WAR, WoW, FFXI, AoC, SWTOR, Rift, Aion, and finally disbanded mid-Cata, with some remnants in FFXIV still. The rest of them got lives and only play Rivals or OW or single player games now.One thing you'll never see today is people genuinely using an /ooc channel because they were otherwise slightly in-character the entire time they played MMOs, forum signatures had their character name and level, it was a whole thing. Trolls and ogres using dumbspeak, dwarves talking like typical fantasy dwarves.
>>739407417The people playing wow now are mazed as fuck. Imagine playing that shit for 20 years AND it's boring as fuck.The problem is the landscape is super saturated and no one wants to invest a bunch of time in some bullshit. Why would you play wow and wait around in org for something to happen when you could just play a new game
>>739407417MMOs need to accept that you can no longer bully PVE players into being fodder for PVP players. The newer generations does not tolerate it.
>>739407741>and are still used as, giant multiplayer chatrooms.discord killed this, either you're retarded or you haven't played any mmos in the past 7 years
>>739407721But this is vast majority of multiplayer games of any genre doe. Pretty much everything outside of friendslop FOTM games.
>>739421469>Anon, the message of that article was that there's still massive untapped revenue in MMO spaceAnd it's wrong. For the reasons I listed in my post. The MMO crowd exists. But it's weak. Relies heavily on old "veterans" who can't let go and whatever waning influence they might still have got. But the crowd broadly isn't growing. And due to how the technological and social landscapes have evolved. That is unlikely to change. No matter what you do with MMOs.
>>739414164HD2 is not an easy game to use as an example because they did a lot of things right, the gameplay was one (at least for the first few minutes; which is what matters for marketting anyways), but then there was the entire main character appeal 'we're all grunts, but you can be the main character!', and then on top of it all their marketing was on point, the meme potential of the entire story, the characters, the world, everything was absolutely and perfectly orchestrated, this isn't something that's easily reproducible because arrowhead themselves have shown time and time again that they didn't know how good of a job they made until it hit public recognition; even for them, this was a lightning in a bottle situationnobody's good enough to do it, well maybe miyazaki hasn't fucked up yet? but even kojimbo lost a lot of his luster, it's just not easy to figure it out
>>739414439nah, it's really not that good, maybe one day the french will get their shit together and make a real game out of the, otherwise very likeable and enjoyable lore and world, but ankama is incapable of doing that
>>739422948Runescape was one of the best games for socialization with randoms because of so many little things.XIV sucks as a game for talking to random because you are constantly moving around. Running across the overworld doing shit. Even if you are standing around waiting for a queue, you might be whisked away for 20+ minutes. Meanwhile, Runescape is about sitting in a small area for hours watching numbers go up and you only leave of your own volition (or when your inventory is full, but you'll be back again in a minite).In XIV, there are a half dozen new zones added every expack so a server is even spread out across vast tracts of nothing every new update. Sure, there are group activities like the field operations, but you're too busy running trains to talk. Runeacape, even after decades, is still pretty damn small. So many old locations still being used and chancing upon a random is far likely.And all of this pales in comparison to the fact that XIV doesn't fucking have chat bubbles. Seeing clearly who said what and where they are is a HUGE visual boon to communication. XIV is just a tiny text box in the corner because the UI is filled with your 800000 ability icons.So is it any wonder the 'socializing' in XIV is a bunch of weirdos hiding away in discord chats using the game like glorified Second Life?
>>739424493Typical MMO chatter:>"what did you eat today?">"pizza">"mmmhm yep">"yeah"Why's always like this?How?
>>739425106bc no1 want to talk and they feel bad cause you asked as a question so they're jsut forced to talk
>>739425049True the chat bubble helps a lot. Also if the community is made of zoomers the game always becomes about efficiency. zoomers are unable to enjoy things and only need efficiency
>>739425359Bikecuck has made a comic about it a decade ago, when half the zoomers couldn't read
>>739425182I swear 98% of the chat i combed through was always food related or "heyyy johnny / jane" And then, back to pure silence broken by food and hello'sThe hell is this? A cult?
>>739425049>XIV doesn't fucking have chat bubblesWay to destroy all your creditability.https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/uiguide/communication/communication-chat/chat_chatbubble.htmlI want you now to shut your mouth and go away you filthy tourist/larper.
>>739407417He didn't say the jews so he is automatically wrong>>739414597games are dying, society is dying, but gamign isnt a thing that dies? it ll go in standby and come back in better times. it would be easy to make a greta mmo but you d need white people born in a white society, no jews trheatening to enslave the human species, budget and passionfact is we have better things to do than make games right now, mort important, urgent, necessary thingsif a greta mm oreleased tomorrow and ther ewas no threat for society everybody would hop on it
>>739425580no1 literally wants to talk in mmos anymore, its that shrimple. thats why maybe RP servers are preferred when available cause you have to interact or atleast that was the old expectation, i dunno now. quite literally discord killed the chatroom aspect of mmos
>>739423942It is in fact substantially different. How MMOs treat padding and how other games treat padding are completely different, because other games don't make their money off of padding while MMOs do. And unlike with MMOs, people don't generally make excuses for padding in other games. MMOs are structurally incentivized to fuck you over with shitty low quality timewaster chores and then charge you to skip them.
>>739425743>added a year ago>off by default>6 words or so limit, so totally useless anywayYou sure showed him sister
>>739423506> social media wasn't big back then.????
I honestly don't think mmos fit the modern climate anymore. I think something close to ff14 is probably the best you can hope for. People have "social zones" where they hang out and talk and all the other content is accessible from menues. I think fortnite is like that aswell, isn't it? A lobby where you can interact with people and then you decide when to play the game. Overworlds are just not really desirable for people anymore.
>>739407417Just make WoW 2
how do you reinvent: play like its a fucking job.
>>739407417I want an MMO as long as it has the following>Only Whites allowed, and you have to know the English language>No chat moderation outside of posting porn or gore or something. Nigger should be a literal hotkeyed macro by default>No woke shit>Offline mode, and even the mulitplayer mode needs to be fun by singleplayer-game-standardsDo this and I'll buy your MMO>But we can't do that for X reasons!Then I am not buying your MMO.
>>739407417A couple issues.First is, MMOs inherently require a market that is shrinking. Specifically, at least for the WOW model, it needs people with disposable income and good amounts of free time. Most people with the time dont have the money, and people with the money dont have the time. In most cases, people with a lot of free time and actually play games play cheap stuff you get on sale, free to play old games, that sort of thing, nothing that would pay for a new MMO. People with the money usually are drawn to games that can be played in small spurts they can fit into their day. This is where shit like Gacha and like, Diablo 4 or something, work. You can play them for 15 minutes at a time and still get a sense of having done something and get the brain chemicals.Other problem is even harder to fix. Ask 100 people what they want out of an mmo and you will probably get 95 different answers. Most people on 4chan usually want stuff that just is not going to happen, especially nowadays. Either because of the first paragraph, or because people just have better options for their own needs. An MMO that can survive on 10k players could probably work fine, but MMOs just wont find the scope they need to be a proper MMO at that playerbase. They wont pay the bills.
>>739407417"many people are addicted to drugs, that means people want more drugs" fucking retard.
>>739409037It's amazing how no one saw the writing on the wall after City of Heroes went EoS. We are only "JUST NOW" seeing Stop Killing Games get off the ground, and it's not a guarantee it will succeed, as you've probably seen with the shit flinging around that topic.
>>739409453>>739409363>real full loot pvp mmos have never been tried!
>>739420179>If you want loot and raids you play a looter shooter or RPG like Destiny 2 or Diablo 4>Destiny 2ooooooooooooo. Yikes.
>>739424765>For the reasons I listed in my post.Your opinion is worthless.
Filtering WoW players is the most important part of reinventing MMOs. Full loot PvP is the way to go.
>>739420179This is true. There is one thing that could theoretically set MMOs apart, and did in the past.That was persistent, mid-sized (a few thousand at most) communities. Having servers with a large enough population to make the game playable but not too large as to make everyone completely anonymous. MMOs largely abandoned this in favor of cross-server and megaserver mechanics, and get criticized by players if they attempt to do this because everyone wants to play on the "big server" their favorite streamer plays on.
>>739421573Online multiplayer has come so far in the last 20 years.WoW was released in 2004 before the 360 and PS3. For a lot of kids and early teens it was the first game that they played online with their friends that wasn't browser based. 2007 was when everything changed with the massive success of Halo 3 and Modern Warfare. These two games supplanted WoW as the quintessential online gaming experience of the time. And there has been two decades now of optimising the online gaming experience for dopamine activation. MMOs with their slower pace just can't compete for attention in the TikTok addled brains of the youth these days.
>>739427478Mortal online 2 is the only one up and it's stuck with 200 players.Even then, the devs had to put a lot of protectionism, welfare and deliberately flatten progression.Otherwise it would tank at less than 20 playersIt's only good on the first month, when nobody knows anything and the bullied-at-school sweatlords haven't crept inOnce they start figuring shit out and mulling on their fellow clannies genitals, it's all over.
>>739427708Albion and Eve are full loot PvP MMOs. Albion is actually pretty successful.
Is there any hope that the Riot MMO is actually going to come out?
>>739427863they restarted development like three timesriot has a huge inferiority complex about their big successes being blatant clones of other successful games so with the mmo they desperately wanted to 'break the mold' and not just make a wow cloneeven though a high quality wow clone would genuinely carve out a huge market segment and they already have a key for its instant success in female yordles
>>739407417No. Those people switched to other live service games long ago. Even if those aren't technically MMOs, they scratch the same itch.It's an oversaturated market.
>all those retards asking for WoW clones when will they learn?
>>739427634Are you even capable of addressing the actual points I made?
>>739409052The issue with fellowship is that it's an M+ simulatorM+ is just enemies with 1 ability each who just go up in stats. It's not really that fun even if it becomes "challenging" after a while. But for any other game the consensus would be that it's artificial difficulty if you increase the enemies' hp and damage by 250% instead of giving them more interesting patterns. So is that really the way to go?
>>739408456I agree, if you look at the big 3 they are all radical different. osrs is a clicker game with bad graphics, but that makes it avaiable for mobile. Also core gameplay wise its designed to be grindy, without expansions and no increase of levelcap to reward grind.ff14 follows wow, but the main focus is telling a final fantasy mains tory, everything else is second in priority. wow is just wow, didnt play enough to comment. But combat is vastly better than ff14 and osrs.If you ask me, the next gen of mmos can go smaller in size for increased depth, but still keep the large open world and player hubs that mmos are known for. Especially now that coop games are the norm.Instead of designing player combat around 8,16,24 and 40man combat. Just keep it focused to a core of like 5-6 players, that way you can make a much tighter combat experience since the server and user pc can handle more.One of the major issues with large scaled games is the amount of data that has to be sent back and forth, couple in that mmos character abilities have their own casting animations and animation for the attack effect you just get a nerfed combat. Its why korean mmos have good looking combat but the bosses absolutely sucks. Id imagine something has to improve with how character actions are rendered in for other players if you do scale up combat, like ff14 does with alliance raid. The usual party size there is 4 for dungeons, extreme and raids is 8 and alliance raid is 40. Making a in depth combat system would make that difficult for classic mmos.On the other hand fps mmos in the style of destiny 2 is free real estate. They managed to have that shit run on a ps4.
>>739428730>>739409052it is quite fun because even having one unique ability per trash mob puts it ahead of many mmos.but this game underlines that you cannot just cut away the whole world. it creates pacing issues. these m+ runs are very punishing. playing with randoms is tough because of that. vibes can go to shit really fast.this all applies to M+ in WoW too.but unlike an actual mmo like WoW there is no alternative mode of play there. you have the hub but you cant do shit in the hub. so you might turn it off to play something else to take some steam off but then you hover over the button again and wonder if the potential frustration is even worth it.you cant level another character, do dailies, hunt some achievements or mounts, do raids, pvp, professions or whatever. even the gear optimization aspect is very watered down so you dont spend much time with it.you just cant boil mmo gameplay down to just this and nothing else.
>>739425743>le tourist99% chance you came in during Shadowbringers and the existing chat bubble feature is shit and off by default. Imagine being mogged by a 20+ year old game that started as a MUD
>>739425743damn it only took them 15 years and until everybody stopped giving a shit about it lmao
>>739407417No, mmos are annoying.
>>739407417i've already tried explaining this to FF14 people, I want to see rebirth combat in mmo or im not interested, your games old, and I NEVER played WoW because I prefered warcraft 3. make a real game with large multiplayer and stop milking whales for cosmetics (which should not be payed content in a massive multiplayer game where everyone is trying to customize) or I don't care and i'll make my own game, with unironically blackjack and bunny girl hookers.
>>739422827>we are at the point where Square Enix are banning people for shit they said outside of the gameWhere/what did they say?
when i think about mmos i think about going on a adventure with my friends, exploring an interactive and interesting world BUT also meeting new people and forming bonds, so a simple coop game is too limited and lonely.instead i get boring min maxing simulators, spreadsheets, checklists, metagaming, lack of mystery and basically just another jobi think the closest approximation would be something like a crpg but with real players instead of npcs
>Banned for saying "fuck"MMO's are dead because people are terrified of speaking due to hyper sensitive leftists looking for any excuse to flex their moderator power and ban people in-game due to being powerless in real lifeMMO's exacerbate this fear as people sink years into MMO's, in the case of WOW decades is really not uncommon>Hey buddy why don't you talk to that new player who needs help>And risk 4500 hours of progress??>Nah fuck that guyThe only solution is deport all the leftists and poc's to their own island to live in a communist utopia
>>739431210You can only post on this thread if you are 40+ out of shape dad gamerAnd you must have a blast, kids, a job and no timeMMOs are literally asylums for millenials and Gen Xers and they smell like urine and soiled diapers
>>739407417noMMOs were a novelty from a time when the internet was still new that time is never coming back
>>739431769>and no timeIf you have no time then mmos are not for you.Unless I suppose you don't have a completionist mentality about them and just log in when you can to something and then fuck off.
>>739412337So Planetside 2?
>>739407417Yes, you can't just make quests that are "kill 10 goblins" and then repeat that a million times and expect players to play that game for the rest of their lives.
>>739431993That's the joke - mmo dads have no time, but always seem to conveniently play millions of hours in the same game they've been playing for two decades now
>>739418810They removed cusstom missions from STO.
>>739431905This
>>739407417Always wanted to see an MMO with 1-of-1 equipment thats so rare and hard to find you can see news articles about certain items selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars.Similar to the vanilla days of Diablo 3 real money auction house.Except these items are not only rare, they can be game breaking making players do OP shit.If a popular MMO like that existed would everyone just spend years trying to find the equips hoping to strike it rich? or play the MMO normally?
>>739420867DDO does a lot of things nicely despite being an old game, although, difficulty system being locked behind paywalls (unless you want to replay same quest multiple times) holds it back.>>739409560ESO is cool and all and I would like to explore it since it looks kind of nice, but I don't like its mmos aspects. It's a shame, because you have much of Tamriel in one game to explore, but that shit is stuck inside an mmo. Why can't they make it into a singleplayer rpg...
>>739411461Everything except Social Media was already a thing
>>739413575is this some kind of irony postthis is exactly what happened when consoles created the ball and gun gamer
>>739414164Sadly, shitting particles everywhere is one of the biological hacks to make people think that a game is more impressive than it is.Works almost as well as infinite draw distance shots of forests and mountains
>>739419006>lets take the game and progression out of what defined MMOsYou know shit like VR chat exists
>>739421468Not everyone wants to be a groomer surrounded by children thirsting for attention
>>739408992very good pointMMO socialization is dead because of extreme over-moderation
