>To understand why this is a bad thing, we have to confront a hard truth that few people seem to want to face about the Souls games, including FromSoft themselves. But here it is: the combat is nothing remarkable. Before you get your codpiece in a twist, keep in mind: that doesn't equate to mediocre gameplay. As a whole, it's hugely elevated by generally great level design, player freedom, load-out options, and some unique supplemental mechanics like World Tendency, covenants and Insight.>But in terms of actual complexity, there's not much going on. There's not much *depth*. And that wouldn't be a problem. Except that the series has increasingly leaned on its action elements more and more as time has gone by, while refusing to implement basic character action mechanics such as dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a basic combo meter for scoring. Which leaves you with rolling as your one and only reactive action.>So prepare to roll, again and again, and again and again. And again. Did rollslop fans ever manage to come up with a response to this?
It's fun
>>739424339>rolling is.... le bad
>>739424339It's strange since sekiro and bloodborne is far better but they revert the player to dark souls level whilst keeping the bosses at sekiro level in elden ring
>>739424339>shout statement into the endless void>expect an answerNot how the world works, sweetie.
>basic combo meter for scoringgo play devil may cry if you want the taste of brown people sweating in your rollslop game
>dantev trying to post on 4chan
>>739424496what country are you from?
>>739424496>go play a bettrr game in the same genre if you want a better game>this somehow invalidates criticism of the worse game
>>739424339>combo meter????
this matt guy is a faggotno one takes him seriously
Souls games got overrated early on because they were the only games that actually punished the player for their mistakes at a time when gaming had largely moved away from that design philosophy. So, they built up a reputation for being these uber-difficult games when that wasn't even true, and then became massively popular because everyone wanted to play them to prove that they were hardcore. If the industry never moved in that direction in the first place, it would have remained a cult classic and ended after Dark Souls 1.
>>739424575>no one takes him seriouslyThe GoW devs literally kneeled on Xitter when he called it shit
>>739424531>dark souls and dmc>same genreYou are retarded
>>739424437yes
>>739424594>GoW devsAm I supposed to be impressed by this piece of information?
>>739424559Op is a lolcow named DanteV that posts about dmc and compares it to from soft games all the time.
>>739424339But it's not a character action game, it's an action RPG.And yeah, the souls combat is simple, but that allows for loads of different movesets/builds.Usually, the more mechanically complex a game is, the less options it gives you that deviates from the standard, which for an action RPG wouldn't work at all.
It's why King's Field is fun despite half the combat being walk forward, slash, walk backward, wait, repeat. The combat isn't the game. The difficulty isn't the game.
chess is nothing remarkable and its refusing to implement basic strategy mechanics like the fog of war, real time elements, asymmetric factions, or even a 2 week patch cycle, which leaves moving pieces as your one and only action, to prepare to move, again and again, and again, and again
>>739424339>guardbreak and roll based combat in Ninja Gaiden Black: holy pog>guardbreak and roll based combat in Souls: hmm, not very based I'm afraidThe truth is that all videogame combat is nothing special.
>>739424339>dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a basic combo meter for scoring.If I wanted all that I'd just play Devil May Cry
>>739424339That thinking feels rather binary. Not everything has to be devil may cry
>>739424690He's quoting matt you moron go watch the video
>while refusing to implement basic character action mechanics such as dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a basic combo meter for scoringbut he didn't say this
>>739424809I understand. OP is a guy named DanteV, he's a lolcow on /v/ and /vg/
>>739424339>Except that the series has increasingly leaned on its action elements more and more as time has gone bythis is true. it forgot that it's supposed to be a punishing dungeon crawler, but now it's all about boss fights. but don't turn it into fucking dmc or some shit
>>739424857>but now it's all about boss fightsSo its just like King's Field.
>>739424339Why would you care about a combo meter in an action game? Do you require extrinsic motivation to do everything in life? The game has to give you a little decal for doing good instead of you knowing that you're good at it yourself?Souls games fans responded by playing Elden Ring and Nightreign that have some of the best art design and combat design in the medium right now. Give me a thousand Morgotts or Fulghor's. Give me a thousand Enir Ilims or Stormveils. Matthewmatosis has watched Devil May Cry and Bayonetta collapse because people just don't care about them anymore. Its like making another sidescroller beat-em-up like Final Fight. Who cares?
>>739424587I think that view is way too superficial.Demon's Souls and then Dark Souls came out at a time when companies thought video games needed to "evolve". And so you had all this flashy spectacle happening on screen, but where you did practically nothing. Games that tried to replicate the "thrill" of watching a movie, yet at the same time reduced gameplay to the bare minimum so everyone could just sit back and watch all that cool stuff happening on screen. Between roughly 2005 and 2015, even Japanese giants like Konami fell into this trap of sidelining gameplay and focusing on audiovisual spectacle. No one seemed to trust video games, and the idea was that they needed to evolve to match what other entertainment industries offer.FromSoftware's games completely destroyed this shit. The gameplay is old-school; your character has severe limitations; if you die you have to kill everyone in your path all over again, etc. Cutscenes are minimal and never get in the way of the game.Fromsoft ended up being worshipped by fanboys unable to see the problems with their games, but in part this cult has a reason to exist, because From Software stood up against a terrible trend and reestablished how games should be made.
>>739424857>it forgot that it's supposed to be a punishing dungeon crawlerThe dungeons have gotten more punishing than ever. The average mook in Elden Ring has a more punishing and brutal moveset than False King Allant in Demon's and they have no problem tossing 20 of them at you in a row. It's just that people know how to play games now so nobody is trying to mash through a bunch of Boletarian dogs in a tunnel anymore. People were very shit at games back in the day.
>>739424882your point?
>>739424857Almost all dungeon crawler games are about the boss fights once you know the layout. Diablo 2 is all about boss fights as chokepoints once you know how to play the game.
>>739424980Gives the game a purity spiral he can attack people from. >>739425054What are you rambling about?
>>739424882That's a very odd thing to say about King's Field. King's Field 2 has bosses be relevant for like a second and for the rest of the series they're a joke.
>>739424531>criticismyou'd have to explain why it's bad for it to be criticism
>>739424339>why isn't this deliberately slow game fast?
>>739424690get a job DOSjeet
>>739425256whats this mean?
>>739425283Means anon was over the target.
>>739424339>juggling>combo meter>in soulsyeah, that's the tone they're going for and wouldn't come off as completely ridiculous
>>739424339>Did rollslop fans ever manage to come up with a response to this?yeah the solution is to play the games as intended
>>739424496Damm brown people has better taste than purple people
>>739424339I'd say that this guy is a total fucking subhuman retard but he eventually managed to say some smart things in his newer videos and made an entire videogame from scratch...
>>739425367based le struggler man le strugglin. Imagine how impressed the princess that doesn't know he exists would be if she saw this.
Insane how zelda has better rollslop combat than blandsouls
>>739424339I can tell by the rambling way this quote starts that there is going to be nothing of value in this statement. The problem is not that this person wants to waste as much of my time as possible. The problem is that they are stupid and think they are smart.
>>739425454BotW especially am I right equestria enjoyer
Rolling just means reacting quickly.What Sekiro does, with different kinds of parries and other responses, is reacting quickly but also correctly, which is harder to do.Some people will prefer rollslop because it requires quick reflexes but not quick decision making.
>>739424996Demon's Souls combat was extremely primitive in its time period, even compared to stuff like God of War let alone Darksiders, and it took player agency away during major fights like the Armored Spider and Dragon God. It was also very successful once Snoy stopped camping on it. People like Souls games for a lot of reasons. But this idea that it is about the gameplay or some sense of going back to the good old days in specific is just wrong. Demon's Souls doesn't really play like any other hack and slash title from its era or before. You can make broad comparisons, but not specific ones. The stew of mechanics and world design and artistic aspects gives you something idiosyncratic and new. "Its broadly similar to Dragon's Dogma", in the broad strokes that barely describe anything about how each game is really played, that type of stuff.
>>739425454lol
>>739424339>But in terms of actual complexity, there's not much going on.The quote is funnier if you post his gameplay alongside it
>>739424339ER's level design is such a massive step down from the older games that it takes away from all the other stuff it improvedUnfortunately fromsoft games are glorified boss rush games now so normalfags don't care about that tradeoff.
>>739425581Twilight princess
>>739425848I remember him once talking about how Bayonetta uses good sound cues to handle off-screen enemies attacking the player, so you can react to them and avoid damage while focusing on another target. Apparently when this happens in DS2 he forgets the basics of listening to sound cues and reacting to them as he's fighting another target. Neither Dragonrider is oppressive enough to make that an unbearable challenge. >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM0uV_4XzKIOr hell, just intentionally make the archer jump down by running up to him at the start, and turn it into a standard duo boss where you're likely to kill each in a couple R1 combos.
>>739425848poise tanking and shielding are dogshit reactive actions too
>>739424339He's right, and what he's describing is the core design problem that has led to shit like Shadow of the Erdtree, in which every single boss and almost every enemy fires off tons of attacks at high speed and with significantly variable timings. All in an effort to challenge that one reactive action, which players have gotten VERY good at using.
>>739425595This is why Sekiro was the perfect solution to the problem. When you have to react with the right timing AND the right action, difficulty spikes, but in a very fair and reasonable way that doesn't mean you have to dodge 20 attack combos before you get a single light hit counterattack window. The problem is that people who loved souls games really sucked at Sekiro. They had to "git gud" all over again. and that made them really mad.
>it's hugely elevated by generally great level designKEKEKEKEKthanks, I needed a good laugh. playing any Soulsshit is enough to refute any claims of quality.
>>739425875Elden Ring's level design feels like it makes compromises where they don't need to exist. Belurat and Enir Ilim are a perfect example of this. When you start Belurat, you're started at a checkpoint where you have one giant blocked gate in front of you, one locked door in an adjacent room, and your standard path. Perfect standard Souls level design. Where you'd open that gate and it'd cut the level in half and you'd just need one or two bonfires for the whole level. Now, the game does let you open that giant blocked gate, but it also gives you a bonfire on the way to it that makes that gate almost useless. It saves you very little time now compared to just respawning at the other location. If they got rid of that second bonfire, the entire level would feel way more coherent and well planned. Enir Ilim does the same thing. There is a giant gate that blocks the area off that you run into at the start of the DLC. But then you get teleported to the dungeon later, in an entirely different location and when you open that gate that connects the level to Belurat, it is almost incidental and otherwise useless regarding interconnectivity. There's another part where you get a bonfire, and then a gauntlet where you have to fight one very hard Beast Warrior and then traverse a staircase where casters spam spells that you have to either deal with at range or sprint through, and after it you have a second gauntlet with flying enemies and another very hard beast warrior. This on its face is fantastic. The exact type of challenge the last dungeon of the game should give. But they give you a bonfire halfway through this gauntlet that spoils the whole thing. Now you only need to luck out and beat the first Beast Warrior and scramble up the stairs once. The execution challenge is heavily neutered.
Souls combat peaked with Bloodborne and Dark Souls 1, the former because it made enemies and players stagger often and recover quick while rewarding aggression, the latter for its slower, more methodical pace and actual effective defensive tools like poise and shields. I fucking hate this awkward in-between Elden Ring stands at where you have weapons with tons of slow-winded attacks and Ashes of War going up against bosses and enemies that match Bloodborne stuff when it comes to speed.
>>739426475Name 3 games with better level design.
Shazam lost
>>739424339Doubling down on I frame mechanics was the worst decision they made, it reached the point where they introduce fake swings and paused animations to catch the player off so he has to memorise enemy move set to win since observation and reflex alone are useless against this, this is nothing but tedium to stretch the game out
>>739426606Shields are better in Elden Ring than DS1. Guard Counters are very strong. And the addition of Heavy Thrusting Swords and Great Spears makes shieldpoking better than ever before. The Great Epee or Lance can be grabbed like 15 minutes into the game, and both are extremely versatile and strong. If you defeat an easy boss down in the tutorial peninsula, you'll get an ash of war that lets you tank the strongest combos in the game without a problem, too.
>>739424339I still don't get what the fuck he meant by this
>50 posts in people are still replying as if the shit about combo meters and juggling is the real quotethe average iq of this board keeps dropping like fucking rock
>>739424339didn't this guy cry about how difficult and unfair DS2 was?
>>739426982>ummmm he didn't actually say that in this video from 10 years agoWho gives a shit?
>>739426751Way to miss the point. Movement is "better" in ER as well but that doesn't mean you can just walk around the enemies like you can in DS1.
>>739424587>So, they built up a reputation for being these uber-difficult gamesThis is only true for Demon's Souls. Dark Souls was marketed as being a hard game where you'll die a lot.
is Matty still making you chuds mad as fuck? it's been literally 10+ years and he still makes midwits and low IQs seethe, it's crazy. it's not even like he's right about everything but his reviews are actually interesting so I guess it makes the average /v/ guy short-circuit
>>739427197That is an improvement. Circlestrafing is still the best way to handle a ton of enemy types and bosses, but the DS1 level of literally spinning enemies like a ballerina was too much. If you want an example of something that can feel worse in Elden Ring, the lock-on has a stronger magnetization to its attacks, so you can be behind an enemy and get dragged around towards the front if you attack while locked on and miss a crit. Comes up the most if you're using a wide swinging weapon. In most cases the lock-on is better in ER, but there are times where DS1's softer version worked better.
>>739424437I like rolling in DeS/DaS and I think the only thing he needed to say is these days From leans too heavily on a combat system that hasn't changed at all, while making the bosses go even more apeshit ballistic than ever before. Like the boss is doing the coolest shit ever 5000 and all you get to do really is roll around for 30 seconds until the cutscene finishes or it happens to be parryable or strafeable. Can't even be a tough as nails mean motherfucker anymore because trying to use hyoerarmor with a fuckhuge 2H sword is going to have you killed straight away most of the time and probably have you whiff anyway. I miss you FUGS.
>>739427351>That is an improvementThose are your feelings. I thought you wanted to be objective.
>>739425028>The dungeons have gotten more punishing than ever.The enemies have gotten more punishing, the dungeons themselves are cakewalks. Getting stuck in Blighttown with no fast travel is still the peak of the series.
>>739424339he's 100% right thoughI haven't been able to get back into souls games after experiencing nioh
>>739424339Embarrassing, wasted a minute reading this word salad for nothing
>>739424339The series always leaned on its action elements right from the start. That's what an action rpg is. 95% of demons souls is using action to kill enemies to grow better and more powerful to get better at doing action and kill more enemies. You aren't putting points into Speech or Stealth. You're upgrading weapons and getting better at doing action.
>>739424496>Brown people outta nowhere Rent free anon
>>739424339>or even a basic combo meter for scoringno way that pretensious faggot said this
>>739427289>Dark Souls was marketed as being a hard game where you'll die a lot.Hilarious, since the game is regularly beaten on twitch streams by bimbo women who barely play video games
>>739425367>20 seconds where you cant attack the boss at allKek this is dogshit
can you guys drop i link to this video so i can go there and call him a retard in the comments
I think they really should decide if they want the game to be about stats or skill. If stats them severely nerf rolling and make stats more interesting. If skill then also nerf rolling but introduce other defensive options so you can't just use the same button to respond to everything.But the problem really is that: 90% of the people don't care. They're not that invested in video games. They just want to play it. To them there is already enough build depth, and the roll is difficult enough for them to execute. So that is why Souls is just going to be this "safe hard" that is easy for most people to consume, it's a money maker series.
>>739427357this is one thing I liked about Black Myth Wukong. There's a lot of stuff you can do to disrupt bosses and enemies that isn't just perfect dodging.
>>739426982all i know is that this guy is retarded and i'm not watching his gay videos, so i'll just assume anything stupid posted about him is true
>>739424339>codpiece in a twiststopped reading there. millennials trying to be clever are a complete joke.
>>739427639This was back in 2011 when movie games reigned supreme. Honestly, this marketing probably played a large part in the game's success.
>>739424339>doesn't know how to use a shield
dmc was never good and even the sloppiest of soulslop is better
>>739424857>but now it's all about boss fights
>>739427396Objectivity doesn't exist.
The thing that made Demon's Souls and Dark Souls magical was the dark adventure and dungeoning.Fromsoft should have leaned into simulation, not rollslop.
>>739424339he said it in a pretentious long dragged way but he isn't wrong. DS3 is a prime example of everything wrong with modern Souls and it's only gotten worse since then.I miss when we had actual action rpgs
>>739424339>Except that the series has increasingly leaned on its action elements more and more as time has gone by, while refusing to implement basic character action mechanics such as dodge offsetting, jump cancelling, juggling or even a basic combo meter for scoringMatt is a fucking retard if he believes this would be a good thing
>>739428243But they're making more money so what is this "should" you use?
>>739427639Dark Souls is a ~60 hour game for the average person.Some e-whore that plays all day while supported by her coomer audience should be able to beat it in a week even if they suck. Which is basically what you see.
how does this matthew shitter still have any credibility left when he was exposed to have deliberately misquoted miyazaki to strengthen his arguments?
>>739428283I meant it morally and artistically.
>>739428185You told me shields were better.
>>739428318Morals based on what? A company is supposed to listen to the customer's needs and provide the best product they can.
>>739428243No Souls games have anything like physics or mechanical simulations in them. The closest you get is DS2's windmill, which they signposted heavily because even the devs knew it was an abnormal amount of mechanical interaction with the environment, and that one bridge in DS3's Carthus that you can hack down and kill all the skeletons with.
no amount of shazamtranny coping, seething, malding, and bullshittery is going to ever convince anyone with half a braincell that elden ring has bad combat. the fact that nightreign is going strong to this day, after several months upon entering maintenance mode, is all you need to disprove these annoying discord trannies.
>>739424339Use a shield retarded faggot.
>>739425367>Hyped spooky dragon>Total pushoverI was disappointed.
>>739428348Yes. I don't have to preface everything that is an opinion with "in my opinion". If I dropped some snippets of game code to demonstrate that pound for pound, Elden Ring shields are more useful, I'd be making a factual argument (using facts is different from being objective). But both of us are just spouting opinions.
>>739428423Does vampire survivors have good combat? Bigger number = better combat?
>>739428487>vampire survivorsWhat other 2D Musou games is it even competing against? It is pretty much best in slot.
