>no back buttonsHow do people stand using these gimped 1st party controllers? How do you stand having to stop moving to hit the dpad?>I don't want to spend $200There are third party controllers with back buttons for like $50, stop falling for this scam
>back buttons are dogshit, feel awful on your hands and distracts from the gameplay
Because I grip my controller tightly and always end up accidentally pressing the back buttons when I don't want to. A regular controller is fine for anybody that's not a sweaty tryhard streamer
>>739565532Most people don't think too deeply about it and just stick with what they know. 3rd party controllers being better deals than 1st parties was not the norm a few years ago. They had a reputation for being cheap cash grabs, which was true in many cases.
>>739565767Yeah I remember back in the old days. If somebody handed you a MaddKatz controller, you knew you were not the favorite friend
>>739565532>>can't hit d-pad with either thumbLet me guess, you can't claw grip either?
>>739566032How in the god damn fuck do you consider claw gripping more comfortable than just hitting a back button?
>>739565532First party controller are shit for baby ducks and brand consoomers.They do not want to think, they just want to get a new version of the brand slop that they grew up with even though all of these companies should've switched to generic USB and stopped making new controllers after 8th gen.Look at how instead of just settling for 2D or 3D, all these controllers just pointlessly straddle their controller on the fence and end up up fucking up one or the other in terms of both ergonomics and function. There's no point to insisting on a d-pad on a modern controller when you can just get a cheap USB gamepad for 2D that will have a better d-pad than 99% of the controllers that try to have both.
>>739565701>feel awful on your handsNot an issue. If they're weird at first, you get used to them fast.>distracts from the gameplayNigger how?
>>739565532Closer to 30-40 than even 50
>>739565532>things that nobody thinks or says
>>739565532Uh oh steamie melty. Get a real job.
>>739566392Imagine being proud of buying shit products
>>739566032autistic retard
Why would I need back buttons?
>>739565532I own multiple controllers with back buttons. Never use them
>>739566779Because that's uncomfortable as fuck and will give you carpel tunnel in no time
>>739566779So this is why they call it an "X" box controller, because you have to make an "X" with your thumbs to properly use it.
>>739566885Lemme guess, you only play 2D games
My brother is pretty insistent on using an xbox controller and I can't really get him to at all clarify why.Like, using AA batteries is a fairly good reason, but he just can't articulate at all what he likes about them.He breaks them too, most of his controllers have issues.
How's the joystick quality on the new Steam controller? I've loved Xbox controllers for years for PC gaming but lately I've been going thru a controller every 6 months due to stick drift issues... and I don't even use them that much and I always buy from Microsoft off Amazon. I've never had to go through so many controllers per year in my life especially since I don't use controllers that much even just for certain games.
gamers only use 40% of their fingersimagine how powerful gamers would be if they used 100%
>>739568524It uses TMR so it's literally immune to drift.
I have one of those 8bitdo controllers with back buttons, which I never paid much attention to until now. Can I rig these up to handle motion inputs on the Switch?
If the game uses the dpad use a dualsense or something similar, if it's a driving game or a third person platformer use xbox etc.Controllers are cheap and on PC you can use whatever you want depending on the game, what's the drama?
>>739565532You cannot innovate on the controller design because the vast majority of people are to retarded to accept change for the better. Case in point >>739565701Same reason gyro aim didn't take off and Valve had to walk back their original design for the steam controller.
>>739569850How does that address any of the points OP made?
>>739568650I use>thumbs on sticks>index fingers on bumpers>middle fingers on triggers>ring fingers on back buttonsThat's as close to 100% as you can get. Your little fingers aren't really useful.
>>739570143You can also buy a controller with back buttons, so again what's the problem?
>>739565532No back buttons is fine imo for like 95% of games. I'd be more concerned with Sony and MS still using shitty ass potentiometer thumbsticks and not Hall effect or TMR. It's hilarious how you can get a controller, with back paddles and TMR thumbsticks for like $60, which is less than a normal Xbox Series or Dualsense controller...let alone those dog shit Elite or Dualsense Edge versions.
>>739570260Index on both bumpers and triggers is more comfortable honestly. That also frees the middle and ring fingers for both sets of back buttons.
>>739569273
>>739565532Xbox fanboys are subhumans. Xbox was pretty cool even in 360 era, despite ring of death, but its fucking archaic as fuck controller by todays standard.>Muh dpad90% of people do not give a shit about a slightly different dpad
>>739565532Because back buttons are a net negative and should always be optional. They make the controller feel worse to hold, they nearly always require you to awkwardly push on the button to get it to register which feels terrible, and they're easy to depress unintentionally especially if you hold a controller in one hand to maybe grab something.I have a S2 Pro Controller, a G7 Pro Wireless, a Hori Split Pad Pro, and a Power A controller that all feature various takes on back buttons. It is by far the single worst thing ever added to a controller. The actual thing that needs to be added to controllers is what the G7 Pro Wireless has which is an extra button on the shoulders. That is beyond genius and one of the best things I've ever used.Touchpad should also be mandatory. It's a minimum of 15 inputs, both physical and gesture, that can be easily assigned by anyone. It's the single best thing Sony decided to add and it needs to become a standardized part of controllers. Everyone can shove the tertiary menu options onto those features.
>>739572476I have to assume you've never used a controller with flush back buttons. Though you'd probably then complain they're too easy to accidentally press.>It is by far the single worst thing ever added to a controllerHoly fuck you're retarded. Back buttons allow you to bypass the dpad, meaning you never take your thumb off the left stick and only rarely take it off the right stick.
>>739573619>I have to assume you've never used a controller with flush back buttonsThe S2 Pro Controller has flush back buttons. They're still awful.>Back buttons allow you to bypass the dpad, meaning you never take your thumb off the left stick and only rarely take it off the right stick.Yeah, and it feels terrible to actually PRESS the buttons intentionally. The claw also easily solves this problem. Back/shoulder buttons are better off used for L3/R3, not the d-pad.
>>739565532The 360 controller was great when it came out, but Microsoft really haven't improved on it with subsequent generations.The Switch Pro Controller was better than both the DS4 and Xbox One controller. The DualSense is more comfortable and better than any of those three. We now have the Steam controller with an enormous amount of features. There's also a whole slew of aftermarket controllers with better quality, and better quality of life features than the Xbox controller.>>739572476Dumb take
>>739573750>claw>easilyYou're retarded. You have to be to sit there and say pressing back buttons feels terrible but claw is easy. We're not living on the same planet and I'm not listening to you anymore.
>>739565532>he doesn't have 17 foot pedals all mapped to different inputsISHYGDDT
>>739573934The Claw is extremely easy to use and learn. The back buttons constantly get easily pressed or feel terrible to actually press. The S2 Pro Controller for example has flush ones so when you actually push them it's like you're pushing L or R on a GC controller and now have this sharp rectangle bit every time you do it because you're pushing into the controller itself.I have no issue with extra buttons, like I said the shoulder ones are good as are the old Sega style controllers or the Duke's B/W buttons. Back buttons are not it. They ruin every single controller's ergonomics no matter if they're flush or not.
>>739573859>The 360 controller was great when it came outHonestly, not even. The sixaxis released that same generation and had gyro. The 360 was already outdated even back then.
>>739574082>The Claw is extremely easy to use and learnThis guy has to be a troll
>>739574190>Honestly, not even. The sixaxis released that same generation and had gyro. The 360 was already outdated even back then.I like the PS3's game library, but I absolutely preferred the 360 controller to the SixAxis. I think it's also pretty crazy to pretend SixAxis was liked, because it wasn't, it was a really shitty implementation of gyro. If anything, I'm pretty sure the SixAxis lost the analogue buttons the PS2 controller had...
>>739574190Problem is the DS3 and especially Sixaxis sucks as a controller. Terrible triggers to the point that you need to buy clip-ons just so it doesn't feel bad, convex sticks have always been a crime against humanity, and the d-pad is awful for any extensive use. I had to use the d-pad for Jojo ASB and my thumbs were red and worn down by using it exclusively, it was awful. I'm so glad we're past the DS1, DS2, and DS3 era of controllers, true garbage with today's standards. The DS4 and especially DualSense are incredible by comparison. All the DualSense needs is a Vita's d-pad and it's borderline the perfect controller.
>>739573750>it feels terrible to actually PRESS the buttons intentionally. The claw also easily solves this problemHow the hell does a claw grip feel less terrible than simply pressing a button that's in the natural resting place of your finger?>>739574082>The Claw is extremely easy to use and learnDoesn't mean it's not unergonomic as hell.>The back buttons constantly get easily pressed or feel terrible to actually pressI've never had this issue. You get used to them after some time.>I said the shoulder ones are good as are the old Sega style controllers or the Duke's B/W buttonsThey're great, but don't solve the issue back buttons do. You can't fit more than 2 of each and they're just used by your fingers that are already using other buttons, making your middle and ring fingers still unused. Back buttons let you actually use your dead weight fingers.
>>739574362Nah, the DualShock 4 was chinesium garbage. The DualSense is good, and if it had the vita d-pad it'd definitely *feel* like a top end controller. The issue is, it lacks features. If you play Borderlands 3 on a PS5, you can't map all of the controls to a controller... Personally I think the Steam Controller is now a gold standard for what should be standard controls.
All controllers pale in comparison to the Freedompad
>>739574307>>739574362My point was more that the 360 controller was already missing features compared to the competition. I know the sixaxis wasn't exactly good, but it still had gyro. If the 360 controlled did too, gyro aim could have been default by 8th gen.
>>739574692>If the 360 controlled did too, gyro aim could have been default by 8th gen.Be realistic anon, the SixAxis gyro was not useful enough for aiming. You had to do large movements and it'd still misread them. I don't think a controller had useful feeling gyro until the Wii U/Switch.
>>739574520>than simply pressing a button that's in the natural resting place of your finger?Because it feels awful to actually use said fingers to press those buttons in? I've been actively trying since the S2 released to get used to the S2 Pro Controller in Pokemon SV. I use left back button for the left stick click and right back button for the right stick click. I would rather click the stick than ever use these, it truly feels awful. Like I said, I feel like I'm pushing up against a slightly sharp rectangle every time I do it and it's very easy to accidentally press it when one-handing the controller or getting serious with it. When I actually want to push the button I feel like I have to awkwardly press inward on my grip to do so.A claw grip is awkward, but you almost immediately get used to how it supports the controller. Your pointer finger becomes the thing that moves the left stick and presses the face buttons while your thumb still stays on the d-pad and right stick while not messing up your actual grip of the controller. Yeah, you lose your second finger on the shoulder buttons which sucks, but in games that make a claw grip feel mandatory like Souls games you're typically not able to do actions using both the shoulder and trigger anyway.The only way I can possibly see the back buttons being defended is if you hold your controller wrong (One finger on the shoulder buttons instead of your middle on the triggers and pointer on the bumpers), but even holding it like that you are still awkwardly having your middle fingers at an angle that you then have to push inward. I'm even trying it right now with one finger shouldering on my G7 Pro and it feels terrible. Two fingers fits more naturally but again, it feels super awkward to push inward like that.
>>739575026How the fuck can flush back buttons possibly be pushing a sharp rectangle into your fingers? Whatever you're using is either a shit controller or you're holding it wrong.>awkwardly press inward on my gripThe fact you call having to nudge your fingers in slightly awkward (despite that being a natural grasping movement) but defend claw grip is insane, your mind or hands or both are busted or something. There is no universe where that makes any sense.>push inwardThe way you're framing this makes no sense. Maybe playing claw grip for so long has fucked up your hands or something. You should not have to *push* your fingers inward, your fingers are literally physically designed to curl inward, that should be completely natural.
>>739565532What do I need the back buttons for? No game is designed for them. If a game needs more buttons I'll just use KB+M.
>>739565532>no back buttonswho gives a shit>no gyrounforgivable
>>739575491>What do I need the back buttons for? No game is designed for themIt's really not hard if you actually think about it. Prove you're not low IQ.
>>739575026>Because it feels awful to actually use said fingers to press those buttons in?I've nwver had this issue on any back button controller I've had. Most recent being Deck, Switch 2 pro and the new Steam Controller and they all feel fine.>A claw grip is awkward, but you almost immediately get used to how it supports the controller.I've never been able to get used to a claw grip. It just feels like shit.>The only way I can possibly see the back buttons being defended is if you hold your controller wrong (One finger on the shoulder buttons instead of your middle on the triggers and pointer on the bumpers),That's how you're supposed to hold it. I mean it's a trigger after all. You don't shoot a gun with your middle finger.>you are still awkwardly having your middle fingers at an angle that you then have to push inwardI don't get this. Feels fine to me.Maybe there's just some fundamental difference between our brains or how we hold controllers. I guess if you're used to holding yours wrong with 2 fingers on the shoulders and in a claw grip, you can't get used to back buttons designed with a normal grip in mind.
>>739575430>How the fuck can flush back buttons possibly be pushing a sharp rectangle into your fingers?Have you used a Switch Pro Controller? When you push the back button in there's a rectangle that forms from the push inward because it's flush due to the plastic. The plastic itself is sharp angles, the actual plastic itself is not sharp, it's just that over time it pushes into your fingers and doesn't feel nice at all.>The fact you call having to nudge your fingers in slightly awkward (despite that being a natural grasping movement)It's not natural at all. I have to physically push against hard plastic at an awkward angle. Great example is the G7 Pro. If I want to push against the back button I am having to push with the side of my finger at an awkward angle for it to register if I two finger the shoulders, or at an even steeper angle if I one finger the shoulders. On my S2 Pro Controller I have to push with the flat of the tip of my ring finger if I'm two fingering or either the middle of the flat of my middle finger or the tip of my middle finger while actively pushing my hands in an awkward position to even hold the controller because this does not feel comfortable at all.>You should not have to *push* your fingers inward, your fingers are literally physically designed to curl inward, that should be completely natural.Have you used any of these controllers? What are you talking about? Even when you are gripping onto the controller you have to actively push with either with an unnatural portion of your finger to depress the button.
>>739575740>she doesn't use the index bumper middle trigger griplmao
imo they should add more front buttons like the original xbox and n64 c-buttonsbut have pro versions with back buttons as alternativeback buttons are not as comfy but it's le bad how lack of buttons dumbs down games
>>739575740>I've never been able to get used to a claw grip. It just feels like shit.Complete opposite for me. It's a natural swap that I can easily do at a moment's notice with no issue.>That's how you're supposed to hold it. I mean it's a trigger after all. No, you're not. It being called a "trigger" means nothing. Many games utilize both the shoulder and trigger buttons at the same time. Ratchet and Clank is always a great example of this because they want you strafing, shooting, jumping, and potentially zooming or dashing away. Spider-man is another example where they want you able to shoot your webs and swing away at a moment's notice while using gadgets which requires L1, R1, and R2 at hand.We are not in an era where we only have SNES controllers with L and R at hand, we've had games that constantly want us utilizing both L1, L2, R1, and R2 at the same time within a moment's notice.>I guess if you're used to holding yours wrong with 2 fingers on the shoulders and in a claw grip, you can't get used to back buttons designed with a normal grip in mind.Nope, because even if I switch to the one finger hold it's still completely awful to actually press the buttons and feels wrong.
How do people use back buttons without accidentally hitting them all the time? I much prefer having extra buttons on the top like this.
>>739575928>imo they should add more front buttons like the original xbox and n64 c-buttonsThat wouldn't help much. At best you could add 2 more before there's too many to quickly press. You can easily fit 4 back buttons, and even 6 or 8 could probably work. It also wouldn't solve the issue of pressing buttons while moving the sticks. Back buttons do.
>>739575798To be clear, when I say flush I mean that it's flat and doesn't distend from the controller beyond the thickness of the plastic of the button itself. If you're using a controller where the buttons are actually inset into the controller and flush with the grip surface and you have to poke into the grip to activate the button then yeah that's awkward, but why the fuck would you buy a controller with buttons like that? I've never even seen one with buttons like that.I'm using the 8bitdo pro 3, pic related, which has flat buttons. I find paddles or extended flapper buttons are too far out and make you extend your fingers weirdly.
>>739576240yeah and only hardcore gaymers care about that over comfort so you can please everyone this way
>>739576316The G7 Pro has buttons exactly like what's in that screenshot. Like I said, I've tried various types of controllers, held it in both 1 and 2 finger shoulder button holds, and it never feels comfortable, easy to press, or normal. It always feels like I have to awkwardly push these things even if my hand is literally gripping them because I have to use a weird area of my finger to do it.
>>739576405You only find frantically shifting your thumbs for most inputs comfortable because you're used to it. Keeping your thumbs on the sticks while your other fingers press buttons is a way more natural control scheme.
>>739576467There is something wrong with your hands, I don't know what to tell you.
>>739575026>middle on the triggersThis explains a lot. Usually I have middle fingers resting above and ring below the back buttons. If I put my middle fingers on the triggers, intentionally pressing back buttons with ring fingers feels awful, and on most of my controllers it makes them easy to accidentally press too. Dualsense Edge is the only one I have that feels properly designed for that grip, since the paddles fit comfortably between ring and pinky and actuate from moving the ring finger down instead of squeezing.
>>739575996>No, you're not. It being called a "trigger" means nothingIt's also shaped like a trigger and used to shoot in any game with shooting.>Many games utilize both the shoulder and trigger buttons at the same time.I've never had an issue with this. I just keep my fingers on the triggers by default and quickly roll them over the bumpers if I need to press those. I don't remember ever needing to hold both at the same time, and if I did, I'd just temporarily move my middle finger up there and then go back to a regular grip. Or map the shoulder buttons to the back buttons if the game needs you to hold both constantly. I wouldn't keep both fingers up there since it's less comfortable.>Ratchet and Clank is always a great example of this because they want you strafing, shooting, jumping, and potentially zooming or dashing awayI haven't played R&C, so I can't comment, but back buttons would solve this if you actually need both at the same time.>Spider-man is another example where they want you able to shoot your webs and swing away at a moment's noticeI didn't have this issue. You never need to swing away so fast that having to move your finger would bottleneck you.>we've had games that constantly want us utilizing both L1, L2, R1, and R2 at the same timeVery few games actually have this. Back buttons are a better option for the few that do.>within a moment's notice. For that, quickly moving your finger is fast enough.>even if I switch to the one finger hold it's still completely awful to actually press the buttons and feels wrong.How long have you actually tried that? You won't unlearn decades of muscle memory in hours or even days.
>>739576868>It's also shaped like a trigger and used to shoot in any game with shooting.and? is the rest of the controller shaped like a pistol grip?
>>739565532Back buttons fucking suck, I don't know how people use that gay shit.
>>739576908Yarr matey it be shaped like a pistol
Personally, I think we need to finally kill of this controller meta where we keep trying to force a 2D control scheme to accommodate 3D games. People should just have to buy two controllers. A 2D controller would be exactly what you think it is - dpad, bumpers, face buttons. A 3D controller would have two thumbsticks, no face buttons, and then at least 6 buttons on the back of the grips for each of your finger, though you could probably put up to 12 if you expanded 4 shoulder button layout some controllers have all the way down.
>>739577057I mostly agree, but I think face buttons would still have their place on the 3D controller for secondary actions. Trackpads too, maybe even replace the right stick.
>>739576829Like I said, even using one finger on the shoulder it still feels awkward to press the back buttons. It's pressing against an awkward portion of the finger to depress it.>>739576868>It's also shaped like a trigger and used to shoot in any game with shooting.Which didn't happen on the Dualshock 1 or 2. That was only a thing after the 360 onward.>I wouldn't keep both fingers up there since it's less comfortable.We'll have to agree to disagree. I find one finger makes the grips significantly more crowded and less comfortable.>You never need to swing away so fast that having to move your finger would bottleneck you.>How long have you actually tried that?Dozens of hours. Do you think I don't use one finger for certain systems or try these things? The Switch 1 and 2 handheld hold and Joycons are unusable with a two finger hold. it feels horrible and cramps your hands like mad while being super inefficient. Even the Claw mandates you do a one finger hold.
>>739577431Whoops. Missed the Spidey thing. I found I was constantly swinging into using the web shooters in midair, or L2ing for the slowdown into throwing a gadget with L1 (If I remember the buttons right).
>>739577052name ONE controller with ergonomics anything like this
>>739577057Face buttons feel good to press and you would be putting one of your most useful fingers to waste for a good chunk of playtime. I'll have gyro on in games where I need constant camera control so I don't need to have my thumb on the right stick all the time. I will also obviously not need to have my thumb on the stick in games that don't need constant camera control.
>>739577431>Which didn't happen on the Dualshock 1 or 2. That was only a thing after the 360 onward.True, I can see a 2 finger grip working better on those. Modern controllers are shaped differently so it makes sense to use a different grip.>We'll have to agree to disagree.Yeah. Fair enough. We're probably just used to different grips. Mine is, of course, the correct one.>The Switch 1 and 2 handheld hold and Joycons are unusable with a two finger hold. it feels horrible and cramps your hands like madThat's mostly because it's a flat board. A grip case helps.>>739577602>I found I was constantly swinging into using the web shooters in midairYeah, but you don't have to use both at the same time. Like I said, rolling your finger is fast enough.I played Nine Sols recently and in that game you use R2 to run and R1 to do a special attack. I typically held R2 down during boss fights to stay agile and just rolled over to R1 when I got an opening to attack.
>>739578130>Modern controllers are shaped differently so it makes sense to use a different grip.They're not that much different, the DS4 and DualSense don't really feel that much different to use despite their more profiled L2/R2. The Wii U is another example where it's intending you to use both fingers because you can't really roll into ZR/ZL and it's heavily contoured.>That's mostly because it's a flat board.Actually it's more due to the fact that it's super cramped. There's no room to fit a second finger and your pointer alone covers both R and ZR for example. Actually holding it is fine, it's when you two finger it it's awful.>Yeah, but you don't have to use both at the same time. Like I said, rolling your finger is fast enough.I can't stand that type of playstyle. It feels like I have far less control over my actions and rids me of the ability to do things like run and attack at the same time. It's just not how I like playing games and the roll method feels awful. Doing it for BotW for example just felt wrong every time I had to use a bomb and press ZR.
>>739569670You can on PC via Steam Input. No idea on Switch, would require 8Bitdo's software having gyro toggle as a bind option (which I don't think it does), and having that bind continue to work on Switch input (most third parties can only remap to other buttons in that mode)
>>739565532Why would i need back buttons?
>>739566092Nta i claw grip like my life depends on it when i play ds1 so theeereee
back buttons are a blessing for all these fucking games that maps sprinting to a face button.
>>739578798I fucking hate the ones that bind the sprint to the stick buttons.
