Leveling massively segregates players and obsoletes 90% of zones. People want to be relevant. People want a living world.In WotLk, 70% of trial players quit by level 10. Recently, 10% of level 10 characters made it to max. A 3% retention, before even counting a repetitive endgame, is awful.
>People want a living worldbut they also want:>groupfinder>fast-travel>instanced content
Most MMO worlds feel dead because the playerbase isn't sharing the same world. They're scattered across obsolete progression brackets.
Yeah the pressure to just quit becomes so great now that I think about grinding in an mmo, it's so evil.
>>739770752People want to experience a living world once and after that enjoy QoL. This is why fresh wow hits well when it launches but dwindles quick.
man I don't even like warhammer all that much but its kind of pitiful how much blizzard just rips them off with no hesitation constantly
>>739770752I wanna say I don't have a problem with any of these. There are a few caveats.I think LFD should be per-server. But I can't find a problem with teleporting players to the dungeon. It's especially helpful when players leave. Think about it. You're competing with extremely popular games that have teleport LFD. And you want people to be online as much as possible. Why not respect their time? I don't think making people walk to the dungeon is necessarily compelling content. You could have ways to get to dungeons that reduce friction, like fast travel and summon spells, but you need to decide if any amount of time beyond a teleport is meaningful (skill expression, variety:depth of choice, and social identity).New World had fast travel, and I can't think of a better way to get across zones unless flight paths are somehow better (I don't think they are; again, you want to optimize player time, and every concession that can be made increases player efficiency and adjacency to content).Instanced content is fine. For PvE, you don't want random players tagging mobs and bosses, and for PvP, you want as much and as balanced gameplay as possible for the least effort. Again, you're competing with games that have instances. How do you expect to provide more value than instant dungeons, raids, and gamemodes? If you don't respect players, they'll just go play MOBAs or Fortnite.
>>739770118bro you've been making this exact thread every day for monthsfor like the 300th time, nobody wants to play full-loot hardcore pvp slop with permadeath and the "dream game" you keep describing is basically League with crafting
>>739771509With respect to the OP statistics, I don't think you can have leveling at all and expect a large userbase. You already need an extreme amount of hype to come anywhere near top games. Fortnite had 14M concurrent players, and 44M unique daily logins. Dozens to hundreds of hours of a dumbed down, forced tutorial is the antithesis of a living world.
>>739770118>put several optional leveling quest and few main quests in a big ass map>never do anything with the map again.FF14's south shroud did it right. There's always so much shit going out there. There was also no need for flying mounts if yoshipiss had not made maps the size of countries for the expansions.
>>739770752this. it's all nonsense. I'd rather have well designed linear experiences than "open world" gankfest retardations that are MMOs.
>>739771509It's actually because freshies imagine that they're going to be able to be the Big Man on their new server when they were some pleb fag who sucked at the game or not playing at all when the content they're doing was new upwards of 20 years ago.
>>739770752"living world" is and always has been a memeGW2 tried it with the main story, in practice it just confused the shit out of anybody who hadn't played since day 1Archeage tried it with farming/crafting/housing, in practice it made the game run like shit and you had to poopsock world bosses so the chink bots didn't come steal all your shit
>>739772341>projecting
>>739771934>for like the 300th time, nobody wants to play full-loot hardcore pvp slop with permadeathApproximately nobody has ever said full loot HC/permadeath (I don't think anyone actually has). Why are you making up arguments to defeat?The best way to replace leveling is making durability repair cost materials. Suddenly you have millions of resources required for thousands of daily deaths. Economy is the what to do besides PvE and PvP. I don't think this is arguable. Trade routes, logistics, building or securing outposts, creating god sets -- everything can be done via gathering, crafting, and trading.Simultaneously, don't have bind-on.
>>739772581save the chatgpt responses, jeetnobody's going to invest in your slop after Ashes shit the bed
>>739772014That's the paradox, people want some kind of permanent progression or they feel their time is wasted/they don't have a treadmill to keep going, but on the other hand it discourages newcomers because they'll be behindI don't think any MMO will ever be as big as og WoW again simply because people are so fragmented across genres (like the whole survival/crafting genre being one that obviously draws some of the MMO crowd) and free stuff like Fortnite exists
>>739772343Do you really think resource accrual, outposts, zone control, and NPC dynamism (fighting and trading for wealth and power) are a meme? People just need reasons to go out into the world. And making resources valuable is an easy way to do that (good crafting loops). Making a living world is like the second biggest innovation in gaming. The first is being able to make real money by trading in-game.
>>739770118levelling is a waste of time. you know who asks for a focus on levelling? autistic retards who make a billion characters so they go through it a billion times. most people only level once. it needs to be fun, but it shouldn't be like the focus of the whole fucking game. obviously. this fact is so so obvious but somehow I still see classic wow niggers bringing it up every day. why is that? why are they like this? is it that hard to envision normalfags in their minds, are they that stunted?
>>739772902>The first is being able to make real money by trading in-game.damn, you aren't even trying to hide how brown you are
>>739772954mmos were never supposed to be for normalfags
>>739770752I'll take all of that before living world, but you can still make a word alive with fun things to do between needing those things.
>>739772781I wrote that up. You don't have an argument.>>739772803Do you really think people won't play the genre that gives them the highest social identity? Motivation (fun) was solved in 1985. Their height of intrinsic motivation is the height of fun.
>>739773182Every MMO is for normalfags you fucken idiot. MASSIVELY Multiplayer.
>>739772803OSRS had solved the progression issue years ago. It has plenty of other reasons not to play it, but progression definitely isn't one of them.
>>739770118I was one of these new players to WoW a few months ago, but got bored and quit before lvl 30. The way WoW does zones and putting players in shards/instances is fucking horrible for anywhere that's not a main hub area. Questing in the dragonzone, forget what it was called, made it feel like I was playing a single player game. I'd rarely see another player.
>>739772954normalfags love leveling. have you ever actually played an mmo
>>739770118>People want a living world.Then that world needs high stakes and resources need to be scarce.If you walk around going "so what if we die?" and endlessly harvesting materials then nobody cares. It's just XP-leveling/gathering zone X. There needs to be xp/gold loss on death and materials need to be rich-thorium-vein tier hard to find.
>>739773136Average US salary is $65k. Most people are going to want to skip grinds, even if they're reasonably profitable (like $8/hr.). Allowing people with more free time than money to grind resources and items is a win-win.
/ESL Bot Nutriments Nigger General/ aka Autistic Ian Thread (Extra Pasta).>Will fly instantly into an uncontrolled fit upon seeing this pasta and accuse the poster of being a liar.>Every argument brought against Nutriments Nigger that he cannot field will be answered with >[Fallacy].>"Warm memos" and other ESL sayings.>Instead of using "is", he uses "of", when discussing subjects. Example? "Quality is of objectivity.">"""Objective""" claims about videogame and art objectivity that are never backed up except with Jewish corporate propaganda that is improperly applied as data.>*Starts talking about vitamins for no reason.*>Legit thinks the perfect game is some bot-infested always-online skinnerbox RMAH trash.>Claims eventually boil down to his preference and literal Jewish player retention propaganda from some extremely kike-ish addiction thinktank.>*gets dabbed on by jannie*>Nutriments Nigger has been doing this for 12 years:https://desuarchive.org/fit/thread/42550205>Nutriments nigger has a "petite" dick and does Kegels for it; he can't please women otherwise
>>739772581>just incentivizes black lotus cartels even harderthe opposite of fun
>>739774389You can increase material usage to have high amounts of resources. You don't have to just make everything a rarity so that people are traveling around finding nothing.
>>739774951EVE proves you can have a good economy.
Is WoW realistically viable for a beginner in 2026?last time I played it was in 2008
>>739775113>citing EVEoh, so you're a retard acting in bad faith, good to know
>>739774858I've fist-sized. Everything else you said is either wrong or irrelevant. Stop trying to derail threads. It's wrong.
>>739775198Not an argument. That game has megacorps, and prices are fine.
>>739770864Imagine if 90% of Counter-Strike maps became irrelevant after 20 hours of play.
>>739774951Once third world farmers touch your game it's over. Beyond over. It's like getting rats in a granary.That should be what GMs are for. Around the clock coverage to keep the bots out. Range ban China, I don't care.
>>739770864I've been thinking about this a lot after rediscovering GW2 last year. I was surprised to see how little the game truly regards it's initial leveling process, and I found it telling how prone the game is to toss leveling boosts to players who buy any of the expacs, like they know that the leveling process itself is a dated system from an older era.What was more surprising to me however was in spite of this, Arenanet seemingly found a way to make its zones remain relevant through evergreen rewards because they also realized that at the end of the day, MMO players dont actually care about their numbers going up. They only truly care about how much they can express themselves as individuals in a living world, and to be able to carry various artifacts to wear on their person for fashion and as visual representations of how dedicated they are as a player.I feel like this is the true essence of MMOs, or at least what has kept MMO addicts coming back over decades despite being a stagnate genre. Deep down I feel like people just want virtual mediums to go on real adventures in. I truly don't think that the leveling process itself adds anything to the experience, bespoke little relics like a funny little hat you found in the pirate zone, or a cool sword from some dungeon you explored is enough.
>>739775440You could include botting with the game and just set resource requirements higher. It would be easier to do than having GMs on bot watch all the time, and better than sometimes wrongfully banning people.
I like leveling where little level difference do not matter that much, like parangon levels in diablo 4, or in lost ark. Even in Diablo 2, you don't have to be level 99 to engage in "late game activities". It is silly to have both "level" and "item level", if everyone has the exact same level. This has little purpose.I also think horizontal progression is very underused in MMOs
>>739776687Only autists will keep playing those MMOs after they cap, and autists are spread thin between existing games already.
>>739775127Yes but the content is mostly slop and there's a ton of wokeshit in it that's also offputting so you'd have to enjoy the kind of gameplay you see while playing it to enjoy it and almost no anons seem to, probably because they fired or ran off all of their talented designers a long time ago
>>739775127Wait for classic+ and play that on release
>>739770864A living world can't exist if progression constantly pushes players away from each other.
>>739775440The problem is their monetization models just about always have perverse incentives that make the botting thirdies increase their profits so they just don't get banned. For subscription models it's obvious but even F2P models seem to be designed around ingame currency sellers boosting profits of the game
>>739773219How can they "motivation" so fucking wrong?
>>739777586That's fine for WoW, that has an established userbase that will be subscribed until they're dead.No one can make an MMORPG now because if it's slightly popular, five days after release it will have more bots than real players. Nothing will have meaning, it will be pay to win, and normal people will get discouraged and flee.UO was considered a huge success and it never had more than 1000-2000 players per shard. Let's go back to that being the norm.
>>739777968UO probably had upwards of 12-15k players per server at its peak which is why they had to have a landmass expansion (it was a lazy mirror world) with the second expansion. It didn't support more than like 5k players on at the same time without major issues during its first expansion
>>739772954I level every class once, and if there is another faction I look for the ones that offer the most novelty. I did this and took many breaks.Endgame was always the big filter. Anybody can level, but people get super picky when it comes to raiding. In classic wow we had retards doing gearscore shit for 5 man dungeons when anybody can do those. That's insanity to me.
>>739777765Skill, choice, and relevance are almost, if not, everything.
>>739775492GW2 is the only MMO that figured it out. ALL zones remain relevant which is awesome. Too bad it went woke as fuck and lost all the talented devs
>>739775127Yes, the problem is that Blizzard will throw you an instant level 80 boost (max is 90) when you purchase the current expansion (and I think a lvl 70 boost with the base game). If you do want to give it a try I would skip the boost and level a character UNLESS you have a friend who is active in WoW and can show you the ropes. Leveling in the world is a lonely venture now, but it's basically catered for solo play and you don't need help with elite quests (like in Vanilla WoW). So level once then use boost to try another class.If you boost your class/spec will overwhelm you with dozens of buttons just snapping to your bars instantly, forcing you to look at guides online to make sense of it. The worst though is all of the systems they'll throw at you. Devs have done a poor job in making them intuitive and you'll just be wondering what every icon on your map means, unable to discern what's worth engaging with or not.I just helped a cousin of mine get into WoW, he boosted and basically confused himself out of playing the game.
>>739779653I would think anybody would rather learn their class over an hour or two instead of leveling for 30 hours. At least they'll get a taste of high level PvE and/or PvP.
>>739770864Leveling made sense when MMOs were slower and populations were stable. Modern players optimize through it so quickly that it mostly functions as social segregation.
>>739771341Why should I do that stuff if its been designed to be unfun and unproductive?
>>739783197Endgame grind can be fun. It's just getting the players to max that's the problem.
>>739770118mmos are dead, discord trannies killed it
>>739785894You realize the top games are making boatloads of money, right?
>>739786149ever since the stock market opened I hesitate to call something profitable "living"
>>739786229Are stocks good money? Multiple AI have made a bunch of money. I imagine it's solveable, at least somewhat.
>>739773359>It has plenty of other reasons not to play it, but progression definitely isn't one of them.OSRS Ironman mode is the best MMO experience on the market today and its not particularly close either. Early and mid game progression are mostly solo, then late game you do mostly group bosses until you get the items you want.
Why is this more fun than any mmo Ive played in at least a decade? How autistic am I?
>>739770118what is the point of these threads man? near daily for months. what are you accomplishing?
>>739770118>People want a living world.No they don't. Every time an MMO dev tries to make a dynamic world that changes and you can't just wiki everything the playerbase pisses and shits itself in anger. See: the Lich King zombie event, or the first year of Guild Wars 2.
>>739787149Everytime I want to play OSRS I just remember that runecrafting is a skill
>>739770118>WotLk, 70% of trial players quit by level 10. Recently, 10% of level 10 characters made it to max. A 3% retention, before even counting a repetitive endgame, is awful.Because those are bots. Farmers use the free accounts to farm gold from the early quests. Then before the trial runs out it gets traded out. It's all automated, you can literally see dozens of bots running on set paths.
>>739783197Nigga videogames are all unproductive, and fun is subjective.
>>739787149Don't you think people would prefer more action gameplay?
>>739770118>Leveling massively segregates players and obsoletes 90% of zones. People want to be relevant. People want a living world.Leveling IS the "living world" dummy. People poopsock their way past the majority of the game so that they can afk in Org and grind the gear treadmill, no wonder they don't think they game has a "living world". Its the other players that make it feel alive, of course the world feels dead when everyone just rushes to the endgame and spends as little time in the world as possible. Thats what happens in retail WoW, everyone is so focused on the endgame that even zones from earlier in the expansion feel deserted, nobody talks to each other, and when they do its to complain that you are a couple points off the accepted meta build and its impeding their efficiency.
>>739770118>MMO>DiabloIt’s sad to see what this series has turned intoAt least there’s Poe
>>739788018I think some players would, but not all. WoW Classic combat is similarly ultra simple but is beloved by many. The truth is as the MMO playerbase kinda ages into their 30s and 40s people won't want to worry about a super complicated rotation.
>>739788336>post 3.13lmao, no
>>739772581why are you just describing runescapes repair and death systems as if no one had thought of them before, despite the fact they have existed for... over 20 years.
>>739770118i could never get into MMOs because most of them had point and click gameplay which i find boring. I played Vindictus for a while and it and only a few other games had actual action combat. Nowadays we call them live service games i guess but a lot of those tend to be shooters and while i do play shooters i would really love a game with nice feeling action combat but its a MMO do any of those exist? Black Desert and technically Warframe i guess?
why are you retards bumping this useless bot threadhe's been making this retarded thread for years and he'll keep making them for several more years
>>739788505OSRS has repairs, but not really “material repairs". Most gear never breaks. Degrading items usually just cost gold, charges, or specific resources to restore.A true material-repair MMO would have all gear slowly wear down and require player-crafted materials to maintain -- keeping the economy alive without relying on constant vertical gear treadmills.
>>739788762>runescape>osrsno, I said runescape nigger, not osrsrunescape has material repairs.osrs doesn't because players didn't like it and whined about there being any repair costs
>>739788762repair costs are fucking gay, material or otherwise
>>739770118Remove levels OR introduce complete level scaling that lets a level 5 and a level 60 fight the same mob and do percentage based damage to it, while seeing different numbers on their screens.Make all equipment sidegrade instead of power creep. You should farm an item because it unlocks a fun new playstyle, not because it's the same item you have +10% stats.
>>739788925I'm still under the impression that most repairs aren't material, using, e.g., gold.
>>739788925rs3 is a very underrated mmo with a pretty sizeable playerbase. Its unfortunate that everyone always talks about osrs but rarely about rs3. I actually think there's a lot rs3 does better.
>>739770118The answer is to have a "leveling style" world, but without the leveling.
>>739789394EoC ruined RS3 in the eyes of many. And that's not even mentioning all the shit like the wheel of fortune.
>>739789394i have never, in the last 10 years heard of a single RS3 player outside of the RS3 subredditi don't even know if they still have a vg thread open
>>739789374what are u talking about?the only gold repair armour in the game is barrows, literal 2005 armourevery set after that is material repair, requiring drops from certain things to fix it, yeah, you can use gold in a roundabout way to fix it since you can buy the drops off other players to then use to repair, but that isn't gold repair.even in current day, the latest systems, circumventing regular repair systems with invention is STILL not gold repairas your gear is powered by divine charges, which you collect from divination, or get as drops. Which isn't fucking gold repair, its still material repair, even if its a more generic material with different tiers.only OSRS does pure gold repair, and even that is rare because people hate itall of runescapes gear repair since like 2006-2007 has been material repair, armour and weaponsthings like vine whips (which got ported to osrs as tentacle whip, except whoops you can avoid that too) requiring more vines or hybrid repair methods like chaotics using a mix of gold and tokensI am not saying there is NO gold repair, I am just saying most gear, especially the newer it is (as in like 2008-2010 constituting as "newer") is for the majority material repair.
>>739789043How do you expect to make up how many resources you could be using and the edge of your seat risk:reward that loss provides?
>>739788249Not even Classic is, reasonably speaking, a living world.
anyone play MU online?
>>739774807How did it go to 65? I guess that's the average but why is the median reporting nearly the same? I feel like wages haven't actually moved properly in years.
>>739789806its still a fairly large mmo, larger than a lot of the 'smaller' ones that you typically hear about. I'd say its a good bit larger than GW2 in terms of playerbase.
>>739789625EoC WAS a fucking shit updatethey did a really bad job with the combat overhaul, I stopped playing.but checking it out years later, they fixed all the issues.there is a reason the game has no problem with power creep despite being able to introduce stronger and stronger things and osrs needs to tread so carefully about not fucking anything up, the game just needed more dimensions to do things in.Its hilarious how osrs is running into issues that got fixed in like 2009 now though, don't get me wrong, I like osrs, I grew up playing runescape during that time period and like 2010-2011 runescape was the PEAK to me.I will never not find it funny how people complain prayer flicking is broken now and the community consensus shifting, when this exact mechanic was addressed TWICE in runescape, once in introducing new better stat buffing prayers, but making them be unable to be flicked (curses main buffs are stat drains, which are required to be left on for 6 seconds to fully stack up and all stacks are immediately lost if you flick them, and are very bad at the base 0 stacks level) but then by adding another 0 to prayer (each point is 10 points, so its 990 prayer points) to further stop it, and now osrs in running into the same reason these changes were made.Look at the attack style bonuses in osrs and how much of an issues they have caused by introducing more accurate weapons and the dps creepor how hard capped armour sets are because if they introduce better defensive stuff the game gets broken, and they don't want to do devaule other either so its just getting pulled all over the place.the combat system did need changes, that was correct, but they did a fucking awful job with them changes and it took quite a few years after to make them functional and a chunk more after for them to be GOOD
>>739771341The only fun to be had in an MMO has to be from playing with a group of people you always run with. Either that or RPing on Moonguard/Wyrmrest. You either have to seek out the world social content which barely exists, or you have to join a guild to raid with or have an established group of people to dungeon with. The actual aspects of Vanilla WoW that made it charming and larger than life had been dead for a long time. Classic sated that itch for a small amount of time. Retail can never be that again. Even when they add content it's all instanced/absurdly layered since you can have instance server lag even doing shit with 20 players in a raid encounter. At most you can fill multiple raid groups in the overworld only to realize retail is so bloated and unoptimized now it can barely handle people mounted up and running, much less in combat before the servers shit themselves. You're basically forced into a small hole in MMOs like WoW now. You can't interact with people cause no one cares about any of the social aspects. In Vanilla, just walking around people would approach you and type to you. Grouping up with people created life long friends, and there was no shortage of people you met that were friendly and interested in talking while doing the content. And it helped since a lot of it was way slower and people barely knew about min-maxing, much less had the equipment to actually properly run the game. Most were normies with old Internet and old hardware, with at most a couple hours of time. One of my favorite moments in MMOs was being in a meeting with every guild leader on our server in GW2 discussing how we would do WvW one of those seasons. You rarely get that stuff anymore if at all.
>>739773182WRONG, in it's heyday "normalfags" played MMORPG's and autists played things like Nintendo games or civilization or some homo bullshit you know nothing retard!
>>739789823I guess we're talking past each other. I want ores, leathers, cloths, gems, etc., that people gather from the world, to be used in repairs that cost sometimes extreme amounts of materials. Are the materials used in RS3 mostly gathered from PvE, or are they gathered from nodes?
>OP has been making this thread every day, for months >Every single time someone points out exactly what he wants existsAlbion Online is a free-to-play medieval fantasy MMORPG by Sandbox Interactive, a company under the Stillfront Group since January 2021. Albion Online's gameplay centers itself around a classless system, in which the equipment a player chooses to wear defines their abilities and the way they can play. Players can go out and do activities in Albion's world in order to gain Fame, which functions similarly to experience in other MMORPGs. Fame is used to level up skills, such as proficiency with a weapon. Achieving a certain proficiency will allow the player to use higher tier of the same weapon class.Items in Albion Online have eight tiers, ranging from Beginner to Elder. Item Power (IP) of an item increases with the tier. Items can also be enchanted, giving them more IP. Levels of weapon specialization (commonly referred to as "spec"), which is leveled up with Fame, also significantly increases IP.The game has a large open-world map that players can travel through. Different PVP zones offer different levels of risk and reward, including Yellow, Red, and Black zones; Red and Black zones feature full loot drop upon death.
>>739791221Albion online? THE cartel simulator?
>>739787329It's a LLM repeating the same talking points every time. Jannies let it slide because it gives the impression of genuine engagement on this dying website while also advertising (((Actiblizzard))) slop. You'll see the same shit going on in any thread related to Microsoft products as well.
>>739791442Speak for yourself the first thing I do when I browse /v/ catalog is ctrl + f "MMORPG" and "Final Fantasy" threads on these topics should always be running.
>>739791356Its fine. It has its appeal if the draw is economics. Personally I think Farever is slept on and is what most people actually want. Its like vanilla wow and monster hunter had a baby.
>>739791114It dependshistorically the systems used had both pvm and gathering options (remember also that slayer is a skill, and many pvm gathering options are slayer based, but non slayer gathering has existed), but there were a lot of bespoke systems for repairing individual pieces of gear.The current game has started using more gold repair, or using an existing (but lower tier/unupgraded/etc) piece of gear on another to fix it, but this is because the expected degradation system you are meant to be using is divine charges, with invention, so your repair systems are consolidated and they half-ass the unique to each piece of gear repair systems. And divine charges are overwhelming gained from resource nodes, as in you harvest different energies from different locations using the divination skill, and you turn them into different things, be they utility items, transmuting other resources, or what is relevant to this discussion, divine charges. There are some bosses who drop them, but far lower than the amount you would use and it is only a few bosses (2 off the top of my head, telos who you fight in the equivalent of the ff7 lifestream, so its thematically appropriate, and nex angel of death, which was them trying to make an otherwise very unlucrative boss less awful). The rest is SOLELY through players skilling for resources from different types of nodes and such.runescape has done a FAR better job of osrs of not invalidating skills usefulness, partly due to having done this in the past, realizing its a huge mistake, and having years to take measures to avoid it, while osrs players never want to vote in shit to fix things like this. Mining, smithing, and firemaking are all completely useless skills outside of quest requirements, and many other skills are incredibly close to be completely useless and generally only have a single use or single avenue of use, like crafting, fletching, woodcutting, etc.I mean it has done a far better job than most games too
classic maple WILL save us
>>739791356>Nooo let me undercut you like a retard until nobody makes any money. I'm very smart.
>>739771341social media replaced MMOs as a place to meet random people to talk to, that's why they were so popular during the early 2000s to begin with.
