>10% of characters made it to max.>When boosts exist.>Not counting sub-10s (which, in WotLK, lost 70% of trial players).You agree that leveling is a problem, right? Something like a 3% retention rate just to start an endgame that's extremely shallow and repetitive is absolutely a design problem. Blizzard can't even do proper esports because everything's locked behind dozens of hours of grinding. How do we fix WoW?
If there were no leveling, I would play all classes.
>>739846167Leveling is the tutorial and most players need it.
>>739847947I disagree. Class mechanics are pretty simple, and there are enough pub gamemodes from dungeons to LFD to BGs to arenas to learn spec gameplay.
>>739846167I played classic up to about level 52 and then quit. I never had any intention of raiding.I view it as a single player game at this point. Dungeons are fun but I would never be willing to commit time to a guild.
>>739846167I haven't played this game since 2008 and I sincerely can't imagine the crippling, utter anguishing depression one must have to have STILL been playing this heap of shit since then. I've gotten married, gone on trips around the world, made a great job and bought a house. Meanwhile I periodically see some retarded WoW thread filled with losers all hyped because whatever latest round of bullshit being produced is "going to fix everything!".It's like coming back home for Christmas and always seeing that same crack addict at the same corner just hunched over with shit leaking down his ankles.
>>739848661>LFDLFR*.
>>739846167Leveling only really feel rewarding and necessary in classic. Even in tbc it feels like an obstacle to these expansions that are structured entirely around end game content.
>>739846167>>10% of characters made it to max.people have a million alts you fucking idiot
Leveling is the best part in vanilla.
>>739846167not sure i understand your post OP. Leveling is the best part of the game.
>>739846167This threadagain
>>739846167I got to 55 and saw a bunch of extremely obvious bots that weren't getting banned, so I quit
>>739848832If 70% of sub-10s quit, why do you think that a large percentage of other brackets don't quit?
generals belong on /vg/
>>739849000my point is going by character and not account is retarded. tons of people have a max level char or two or three and then a dozen alts sitting around random levels like 3, 5, 12, 30 that they haven't touched in years sometimes
>>739849061I think that statistic is for vanilla Classic. I know retail can tend to have a lot of alts, but Classic?
>>739849336i dunno i haven't played classic but i had an alt of every class in vanilla, by bc and wotlk i sometimes had multiples. most being random low ass levelsanyway i hate this piece of faggot shit game now
>>739849336>but Classic?everyone still has 10 alts
>>739849336Doesn't account for retail tourists who never had any intention of playing the game for more than a week. Classic comes from free with a retail sub and getting to level 10 can be done in a day.
>>739846167characters =/= players. It would be better to count subscriptions that resulted in a max level character instead.Progression systems are a psychological loop that create retention. That's a major pillar of why people were playing wow in the first place. If wow's endgame is repetitive, you're playing the game too much. They shouldn't care about the small % of players that grind the endgame, the large group of people who quit at early and mid levels needs to be addressed, with less emphasis on people who quit early because you have no way of knowing if they are even your audience or not. But if people drop out at level 30 there's something you could've done to improve your game.Wow's biggest problem is the quests weren't fun. I would've devoted massive resources to designing novel quests with interesting writing. The second is PVE with your friends is impossible unless you are very close to the same level. Even friends you make in the game, you're likely to diverge in how fast you level.
>>739849336>878k made it to 60.>105k achieved an item level higher than 80.Lull.
https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/news/why-nobody-talks-in-world-of-warcraft-anymore/
>>739851593Is this an AI written article? Nobody talks because Pozzard CS is entirely run by bots so literally anything you write in chat opens you up to be mass reported by some tranny cabal and get your money stolen even if you said literally nothing offensive.
>>739851740Maybe there's just not that much to say if we don't have RL discussion.
>>739850012>characters =/= players.Unless Blizzard released sub numbers, number of characters is all we have. It can be pretty telling, like >>739849336.>Progression systems are a psychological loop that create retention.You can do everything leveling can do if you just make everything gear based, and people won't quit in droves to a dumbed down, forced tutorial that massively segregates players and obsoletes 90% of the world.>If wow's endgame is repetitive, you're playing the game too much.It's possible making a game people play all day, every day. Just make a living world.
How did the French manage to make the best MMORPG of 2026?
>>739851593>>739851740In game chat has been dieing since wotlk, what is there to say when even the group content is a cakewalk. I played mop remix recently and you can make a dozen mistakes per pull and still be alright because the game has no teeth
>>739851740I wasn't getting AI vibes. It's probably just written by a woman.
Do you think WoW or another MMO will ever be as popular as Fortnite or whatever? Fortnite got a 14M concurrent and a 44M unique daily. Surely the genre just needs less meaningless grind like leveling, and more meaningful worldbuilding.
>>739846167WoW end game is for losersthe fun is in the journey.
>>739858643Leveling is too isolated and unproductive. Just start everyone at max and have a good economy with horizontal progression.
Leveling is a core part of any RPG
>>739859085>Appeal to tradition.Singleplayer games are meant to end. In an MMO, you don't want to massively segregate players and obsolete 90% of the world.
>>739859249it's why you implement the Dofus/Wakfu systemyou can scale your level down, get achievements/rewards for doing content at their appropriate leveland then there's hard-mode, scaled up versions of old content!best of literally both worlds, while retaining RPG progression and the game's/content's identity
Leveling is the fun part of the game in Vanilla.
>>739859369What do you reward them with if their gear just requires gold to repair instead of materials and they already have their set?
>>739859447How few people level more than once?
>>739859492More materials for more gear?Cosmetics?Chase items?
>>739847947Leveling was a tutorial when it was slow and you got your abilities spaced out over the course of days/weeks, in modern WoW you start the game and reach max (or at least the previous expansion's level cap) in an instant and in reality an actual new player is unlikely to interact with any other systems as they level, assuming they do actually stop every 10 seconds to read the new ability or talent they just got they're still unlikely to understand how to play in an actual group >>739846167>Blizzard can't even do proper esportsgood esports are already what's killing the game, M+ shitters need to be put down for good
>>739861015do delves?
>>739851593Not reading that shit but no one talks in wow for they same reason that discussion here is impossible now, people have forgotten how to speak to each other in a way that isn't inherently combative and trying to start shit
>>739861038Do delves what?
>>739861130there's already multiple avenues for gearing, m+ isn't the only endgame
>>739861167M+ disrupts the entire flow of gearing that was established in the game for a decade prior to it existing, it spills over in to ruining raiding by proxy, no one is going to tell you to go run more delves to get in to a raid group because the gear caps out fairly early, meanwhile they absolutely will expect you to run an endless amount of M+ to stay competitive
>>739846167The problem is how long it takes to level. Ain't nobody got time to waste 20+ hours to reach max level then struggle for another several to find a community to play with.Posting job applications 40 times a day is annoying enough, I don't want to do it in my video games as well.
>>739846167I only played TBC and I loved leveling then, it felt like a real adventure as I explored zones I'd never seen before,
These threads are AI bots
>>739861241how else can you keep dungeons relevant
>>739861402>how else can you keep dungeons relevantThe same way they were relevant the entire time before M+ existed you make the gearing ramp Normal > Heroics > raiding, lfg tool already solved the problem of normals/heroics being dead long ago, if you really feel a need to incentivize it because DPS can't handle a 20 minute queue then you add some form of tokens or currency to it, M+ is a self perpetuating problem that blizzard keeps around despite it absolutely being a massive pain point for new players as evidenced by the constant 24/7 threads on the forums about it
>>739861402Dungeons are dumb and add nothing to MMOs. The same principle can be applied to the open world.
>>739861592Bzzt wrong answer
>>739846167>put all time and effort into the "endgame">wtf why does nobody like the pre-endgame??Sandbox > Themepark
Leveling to max through BGs, questing and the occasional dungeon is the best part of wow.Then you have raiding which is the true endgame but what made wow the best game ver made is that you don’t HAVE to raid.I would go back to WoW if I had a raiding guild. But since gamers don’t exist anymore WoW is dead
>>739861592youre ret ardreded
>>739861402>how else can you keep dungeons relevantYou should get a weekly cap on a unique currency like arena points depending on your rating. So instead of getting a random piece of gear each week due to RNG, you can buy what you want.Raid level dungeon items are average priced that take a week to get, raid items are double the price.The problem with the WoW model has always been time gating shit, always. The only way to make time gating feel rewarding is giving upgrades in small but frequent increments. I rather work towards the item I need knowing I will get it than do my weekly shit and pray the item in the vault is useful(90% of the time it isn't).
>>739861998idk i feel like way too deterministic loot is boring
>>739846167Leveling is only a problem if the point of the game is to get to max level. A good MMO world should be like real life, some people win and some lose, some people stick around and some drop out. Otherwise you get nobody at low levels and everyone in one giant crowd at 60 vying for tiny resources. Like India or something.
>>739861241it's not M+'s fault you suck donkey cock at the game and need 9-19 people to carry you instead of 4
/ESL Bot Nutriments Nigger General/ aka Autistic Ian Thread (Extra Pasta).>Will fly instantly into an uncontrolled fit upon seeing this pasta and accuse the poster of being a liar.>Every argument brought against Nutriments Nigger that he cannot field will be answered with >[Fallacy].>"Warm memos" and other ESL sayings.>Instead of using "is", he uses "of", when discussing subjects. Example? "Quality is of objectivity.">"""Objective""" claims about videogame and art objectivity that are never backed up except with Jewish corporate propaganda that is improperly applied as data.>*Starts talking about vitamins for no reason.*>Legit thinks the perfect game is some bot-infested always-online skinnerbox RMAH trash.>Claims eventually boil down to his preference and literal Jewish player retention propaganda from some extremely kike-ish addiction thinktank.>*gets dabbed on by jannie*>Nutriments Nigger has been doing this for 12 years:https://desuarchive.org/fit/thread/42550205>Nutriments nigger has a "petite" dick and does Kegels for it; he can't please women otherwise
>>739864384
>>739848661>Class mechanics are pretty simple>most people still don't understand how aggro and los pulling works and the fact that your tank is running back to a corner next to you from ranged doesn't mean that he's scared and is afraid to dieYou have no idea what you're talking about. The average WoW player is absolute fucking dogshit. I'm talking "people that don't read their own tooltips" levels of dogsits, like warlocks that don't know that they can cancel their own fear by using Curse of Recklessness.
>>739846167Once youve been max level for a while, you realize the leveling and travelling through the zones was always the best part.
>>739864578>The average WoW player is absolute fucking dogshit.i thought this was true until LFD came out and my battlegroup had all the macacos and spics. holy fuck i could train my toddler to be more competent in 30 minutes than 95% of Ragnaros/Quel'thalas WoW players were in Wrath
>>739862863you still have raids that gives you random shiti dont see the issue
>>739848661But the problem there is that most auto group content is tuned to be as easy as possible.LFR only makes this worse with how undertuned most of it is, and random BGs usually just result in newer players getting stomped by people with better gear and more experience.You don't actually have to learn anything to get access to most of that content, meaning that once you want to start doing more organized content you're basically stuck figuring out how to actually play your class now that everything you face doesn't fall over like it's nothing.Learning throughout the leveling process in older versions was a smoother experience, like going to moonbrook around when you get shield slam as a warrior, letting you naturally put 2 and 2 together to learn that interrupting the casters in town cuts pretty much all their damage and turns them into an easy fight.This is only reinforced when grinding for levels between zones, since taking less damage means less down time to eat and more XP, further drilling in the idea "IF I SEE YOU CASTING SHIT I WILL BACKHAND YOU INTO A CRATER".
>>739864836then i realized the actual human WoW players aren't that terrible*was meant for the end
>>739849336>I know retail can tend to have a lot of alts, but Classic?Yup, bank/disenchant alts.Being able to DE BoEs that aren't worth shit is great, mostly because it doesn't cost a fee to put enchant mats on the AH.That said, it'd only be like, 1 or 2 per person.
>I want longer leveling with more places to go and things to see and don't care about being particularly good at the game>I don't read quests I use guides to speedrun to max level I only want to parse and raid logMMOs cannot please both of these groups, developers have to drop one of them and never look back
>>739864919>That said, it'd only be like, 1 or 2 per person.yeah for bank/DE alts maybe. that's not considering all of the actual alts people make
>>739848661Anon there are people at 60 that still click their spells, have no idea how threat works despite being in aq40, I recently played with a paladin that didnt finish the quest to get resurrection and he had mostly tier 2 on. The game might be simple but the players are too
>>739851593>introduce a vague social contract and right click report>uhm why isnt anyone typing anything in the chat??the blizzard chat is so pozzed people just chat on external apps like guild discords so they dont get banned by a tranny.
>>739846167How many of these characters are attached to accounts with a max level character? I know when I played I made a bunch of hobo characters to either check out other servers, act as bank mules and etc. I only ever really maxed out one character of each of the trinity on my main server.
>>739847947The players that needed it didn't learn from it, and the players that didn't need it were kept from the actual fun.
>>739864578>The average WoW player is absolute fucking dogshit.You are not making a good case for WoW's shitty leveling system. In fact, you are underscoring that it might as well be scrapped for all it would affect.
>>739867061SEX
Vanilla wow was amazing during its initial release for a few reasons:-the game was growing in popularity-people did not know what classes they wanted to play and hopped between alts constantly-nobody knew how to level effectively-many players had no concept of what endgame even functioned likeThe organic experience of every single low level zone being populated by people that largely played like idiots can not be matched by any classis re-release or even classic plus.I'd also argue that you could create an experience like this again with a new game, but you'd have to somehow stop people datamining and reintroduce friction and difficulty back into the open world and leveling journey (something a mainstream studio will never do again).
>>739846167>let's fix WoW/MMORPG thread no. 432566when will they learn?
>>739846167The whole game is the real game. You are playing the "real game" the moment you log in and spawn in Goldshire Abbey, Coldridge Valley, Shadowglen, The Valley of Trials, Deathknell or The Red Cloud Mesa. If you just spent the whole time playing leveling different characters and never getting them to max level, that was a perfectly legitimate way to play. And many people DID play that way. So, a lot of characters never reaching max level is not nor ever was some huge problem that needs to be "fixed."
>>739846167The problem with MMORPGs is that they neglect the RP 'Roleplaying' part of things.Simple as that.Go look at Arelith and other Neverwinter Nights RP servers, they're better than any MMO on the market.
>>739868640lol.
>>739846167>You agree that leveling is a problem, right?If you removed levelling nobody would play wow at all lmao
>>739869496yeah maybe 10-20 years ago
>>739869615People have attempted to make games that are basically "Just the MMO endgame with leveling and open world removed" and they all fucking faceplanted. It is the last sliver of what's left of the actual MMO that is holding up the decaying corpse of the modern MMO genre and making anyone even bother with the objectively garbage "endgame."
>>739869615And nobody plays wow now since it has no levelling
>>739847947Except leveling is so braindead and easy it teaches you absolutely nothing about how the class actually played come end game.
>>739846167>he posted it again
>>739854168How do they make something simultaneously gay and the complete opposite of gay
>>739848789Chill anon I just started playing
>>739846167>90% of players enjoy leveling>what can we do to force them into endgame activities?lolwhat
>>739846167nobody wants to raid because raids are shit content. weekly lockouts, forced into guilds, forced into discords, forced into large groups, forced schedule. it's shit and should be removed from the game entirely. then remove all barriers, timegates and prequisites to the content there is at endgame and see more ppl participate.
OP is retarded
>>739846167>You agree that leveling is a problem, right?Leveling IS the game, not the problem, because the leveling happens in all the game world. Also, imagine the retention if the game WASN'T a themepark mmo like WoW. How many people play Eve Online or Albion Online or other games like that, where progression happens with gear or ships instead of raw stats increase, where you have to create your own content and fun in a sandbox game? Leveling is both a funnel and a theme park for people who don't actually like playing mmorpgs. If you remove it, you're only going to have to rely on more investment in story, writing, cinematics, other types of character progression(because people these days need to see green line go up because you trained them for years to find fun in progression instead of gameplay)The people who quit before reaching max level REALLY REALLY don't like mmorpgs, which reveals another function of the leveling process: filtering people who don't give a damn about the game, which means a much better experience for those that reach max level because it's full of likeminded players who like playing the same game and by the same rules.Just like before, the more you remove from the game experience by improving so called "QoL" for people who don't like your game, the more you sabotage and destroy the experience for the people who do, who are your actual audience and who will stay after the content is depleted and wait for you to create more. By not filtering the locust type player who only wants a singleplayer experience with as much dopamine packed inside it, you are collapsing the social experience that keeps a mmorpg healthy in the long run for immediate financial success. And that's why WoW is a shadow of what it used to be, despite making more money. All that drives the game these days is sunk cost, and not much else. Literal slaves on the plantation.
>>739847947Depends on the class or how the game handles the class actually.There are different builds for different roles. So for example a typical Disc priest might use wands on most mobs but that doesn't teach them how they should be healing people or if they should be using that shield spell on warriors or not (protip: it prevents rage gain, not mentioned at all by the bubble spell)Most MMOs in my experience have very bad mechanics for people looking for healing roles because they can't "tutorial" healing properly, even when it is as braindead as refreshing a HoT like a lot of beginning dungeons were. There is no healer tutorial that matters because you can't do healing roles as a solo player unless you are some kind of summoner. The closest you get to that is Warlock in WoW with health funnel (or how drain life works in nu-wow if you're demon talent). Ironic.You're only really pushed to learn how to heal if you are grouping up. You can level solo and not even engage with that aspect, but then you're leveling a priest to not heal which is a social death sentence.A DPS is simple. Some of them even have pets to play with aggro mechanics.A tank class has no reason to "tank" because they do not manage aggro, when they solo they do not engage with that mechanic whatsoever. They just DPS.>Dungeons are part of levelingThey are optional. With or without leveling, those dungeons are what teach people to work together and how to use their skills with each other. I'm not against leveling, but it is not the tutorial you are looking for. All of my teamplay I had to learn on the fly with groups giving me critique or through the server memes (i.e. guild named "Wait for Sunders"). Leveling and acquiring the skills from npcs did not teach me how to use those skills alone.I could probably use what I learned from that game and adapt to other games pretty easily, but that is knowledge that I had to train and borrow from other people first and foremost. Leveling did nothing.
>>739848661This is a provably. observably false position. See>Derp knight phenomenon from people getting DKS at 55 in Wrath >those weird "get silver in the dps/hel/tank" trials people were forced to do because when they introduced boost, people were jumping into max level dungeons and playing unacceptably shittily, even for wow.
>>739851740Nice schizo theory, I literally went on a racist run for 2 hours last sunday during a Karazan on general chat and nothing happened yet
>>739874519>A tank class has no reason to "tank" because they do not manage aggro, when they solo they do not engage with that mechanic whatsoever. They just DPS.Anyone competent knowlingly leveling as a tank will be enging it mitgations because they should know that to compensate for their lower overall damage, they should be pulling half the zone.
The worst part of MMOs are the features that makes them MMOs. If you strip them all down, you are left with a product that is actually enjoyable.>noooooooo I like mandated waiting periods, vast empty spaces, annoying inventory management, 1/10000000 drop rates, pay to win, etc.
>>739846167>lost 70% of trial players That's fantastic retention. Across the industry, games that are free-to-try/ have trials see ~10% of players even make it to level 2.
>>739874865Yes, if it is enabled by the game.You can only really do that in nu-WoW solo because they neutered the mobs. You don't have that kind of sustain in earlier iterations, and it would be considerably stupid because you could simply not take tank talents early on and be better off. In fact the earlier in leveling you are, the less mitigation options you have. You don't even get defensive stance until you do a quest back in the old days and some people struggled to even find their npc at level 20. You also don't get anything for pulling half the zone because warriors don't have any sort of auto-counter or feasible aoe that early since swapping to use actual aoes (on battle/berserk stance) makes you lose rage unless you take some Arms. Leveling warrior was a challenge that would only be more challenging if you were just using sword and board.Which doubles back to the issue: leveling gates your abilities which would let you do those things. It's a terrible tutorial for tanking. You can easily fight your first dungeon as horde or even alliance without having the tank stance. Warrior is usually pigeonholed into Arms or even Fury that early on, your AoE options are minimal, and generally leveling as Protection means you are a dungeon/party whore since you are much more sluggish and vulnerable with your shit damage, seeing as how most of the skills revolve around aggro generation instead. Your only AoE in defensive stance is thunderclap, which dealt absolutely jack shit in damage and acts as one of your mitigations, and was a skill infrequently used because it ate rage like candy while mitigating a whopping 10% melee-only attack speed. People only really use it when they have spare rage, it is not a terribly good skill.So no, you should not be pulling half the zone, at least in vanilla. Perhaps other MMOs where the tank is not given a damage aoe or feasible counter as well such as earlier MMOs with more caveman-ish design problems.
>>739846167MMOs always have constraints because of the amount of people you have to fit into a single server and they all follow this formulaic quest design that makes them boring as shit to get through. I just play single player RPGs now.
>>739874519WrongYou are wrong. About everything.
>>739876161If you're going to respond with nothing at least respond with something entertaining.Give me some real india-israelite shit. Just go feral on the keyboard. Anything other than killing this board with bot-tier conversation poisoning. Hit me with the anal vore "saar" your stupid red exclamation doesn't do anything anymore.
>>739862863you're a dopamine junkiemost people would rather invest time knowing that there will absolutely be a payoff, that's the whole reason why the vault was created in the first place
>>739854404Retail is harder than vanilla boomer
