Because castlevania brought nothing to the genre.
That's why most people think the name "metroidvania" is stupid.
Everything that people say SOTN brought to the genre was already done repeatedly in games by westone and falcom (and others) years earlier.

>>739870775
Chasm (mid af), salt series (great), afterimage (hate it, then love it), frontrunners or front hunters, bloodstained 2, last faith (gem) , mandragora (could've been a gem), death's gambit (10/10)
>>739871029
Like what?

just finished SOTN and it was kino as fuck, although i didn't like the inverted part as the first half
where do i go from here?

>>739871454
Except for Circle which tries to do something different, the GBA and DS Vanias are just downgraded slop.

>>739871501
i meant metroidvania in general tho, not necessarily castlevania.

>>739871454
The other Castlevania games are actually pretty good. Bloodstained Ritual of the Night has also good.

>>739870775
Valdis Story

>>739871671
Isn't that the game with that one autist's OC?

>>739870775
Because the genre name doesn't actually mean "games inspired by metroid and castlevania". It literally never has. A handful of retards latched onto that idea "because it's in the name" and completely ignored why the term rose in popularity in the first place.

>>739870775
>Why do so many games call themselves "metroidvania" despite being all metroid and no vania?
because that's the name of the genre? metroid games are metroidvanias, despite by definition being 100% metroid and 0% castlevania, and vice-versa

>>739871693
Yeah, Seizui/Reize.
Though to be fair, he's paid to stick that curved dick retard in a lot of other games.

>>739871749
actually now that i think about it, SOTN isn't even 100% castlevania itself, a 100% castlevania game would be one of the classic ones that are just linear platformers.

>>739871693
Probably? It's a kickstarter game with a tier for "put your oc in the game" so boomerang dude was probably all up in that shit. It's been like ten fucking years now so I'm a little fuzzy

>>739871454
Pitfall II
Legacy of the Wizard
Simon's Quest
Faxanadu
Zelda 2
Battle of Olympus
Blaster Master
Wonder Boy III
Wonder Boy in Monster World
Hebereke
Link to the Past (It's literally a metroidvania, it's just from a top down perspective instead of side scrolling)
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III: Radical Rescue
Link's Awakening
Monster World IV
Super Metroid
Demon's Crest
Tails Adventure
Tomba
Tomba 2
Metroid Prime
Zero Mission
Cave Story
La-Mulana
La-Mulana 2

-The other (post SOTN) castlevanias are incredibly uninspired, a couple of them are just crap.
Leave them until you have absolutely nothing left to play and are still desperate for more.
-Bloodstained is TERRIBLE.
>>739871696
>Because the genre name doesn't actually mean "games inspired by metroid and castlevania". It literally never has
What planet are you on?

>>739871749
>and vice-versa
You almost had it until that last part. Metroidvania castlevania games are still heavily inspired by Metroid. It's why the name exists in the first place, as the term was used to specifically describe castlevania games inspired by metroid

>>739871454
Rabi Ribi.

>>739871860
>What planet are you on?
Oh fuck off. The term arose from the castlevania community to specifically describe castlevania games inspired metroid to differentiate them from the "classicvanias." It was always specifically meant to invoke an inspiration from Metroid.

Journalists eventually latched onto the term to describe the growing phenomenon of metroid inspired games, specifically Axiom Verge and Ori and the Will of the Wisps, neither of which have any rpg elements at all. As it began to spread certain retards just saw the name and thought "hm it must describe games inspired by metroid AND castlevania!" when that was never actually the case.

>>739870775
some people call them igavanias, the ones with actual rpg elements.
afterimage
touhou lunar nig- wait fuck that's ladybug

there are some others, but they aren't really worth playing, lots of people like chasm for example but I think its pretty mediocre.

>>739872048
>Ori and the Will of the Wisps
>neither of which have any rpg elements
ori has leveling and a skill tree?

>>739872182
Idiots call them that. Because Iga never made a single one.

>>739872245
they are talking about koji igarashi with the name....
idk what "iga" you are thinking of...

>>739872232
Sorry, I meant ori and the blind forest, although that one might have actually still had some experience system I can't remember. I just recall the combat being practically non-existant

>>739872330
I never played the second one, just blind forest
and yeah it had a leveling system with a skill tree

I should play the sequel.

>>739871860
Interesting list, but Legacy of the Wizard is for psychos

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Iji is a damn good game

>>739870775
Bloodstained is dogshit

>>739872356
The sequel is good, I liked it.

Anyway, My point was that the term was used to specifically describe the rise of metroid-likes, regardless of whether or not they took elements from castlevanias. So many indie metroidvanias started coming out that the term eventually became the defacto name for the genre and even metroid games are now reffered to as metroidvanias.

the 'vania' stems from castlevania 2 not sotn

>be me
>Kickstarted Bloodstained whenever it was announced
>got an email a few days ago
>PC physical copies preparing to ship soon
Holy FUCK it's been nearly a decade since the game came out, what the FUCK is going on?

>>739872474
Didn't ask

>>739871029
You need to lurk moar before posting newfag.
It's called metroidvania in description of castlevania games that play like metroid.
fucking newfag i swear, you're like 40 years old and you don't even know basic shit.

>>739872428
I appreciate you, Iji poster

>>739871749
Metroidvania was used originally to name Castlevania games with Metroid level design. Also known as Igavanias
The term became a meme and is now used to name every metroid-like game even when the only thing SOTN did was blend a classic IP with Metroid design

>>739872537
No it doesnt. The "vania" literally stems from a term that was used by the castlevania community to describe castlevania games specifically inspired by metroid.

>>739872520
oh you are not wrong.
But its one of those situations like roguelike.

Where if you actually like metroidvanias, as in the rpg aspects being at the forefront and very important, its a lot of people making metroid clones and calling them metroidvanias, which they just simply are not.
so if you ask for metroidvanias you will get told actual metroidvanias, not metroid-likes, much like the roguelike-roguelite situation, the metoirdvanias just has no one autistic enough to champion it like roguelike players (Which I also ironically am and very autistic about also!).
I just care about the vania part and the game in the vania context. I don't like a single metroid clone and I will only a metroidvania if it actually has rpg elements and the vania part, in whatever form it appears in.

>>739872787
No, you are still flat out wrong. Metroidvania HAS NEVER MEANT "games inspired by metroid and castlevania." Initially, it was specifically used JUST by the castevania community to categorize castlevania games, and then the term was spread by Jeremy Parish to describe "action adventure platformers with maze like words". There was no in-between stage where it meant "games inspired by metroid and castlevania"

>>739872942
nah ur wrong
I coined the term on march 18th 1997 when I go an early copy of the game during a trip of Japan and my friend said it played a lot like metroid, I put them together to refer to the platforming elements of metroid but these rpg elements with lots of gear customization and progression.
Who are you to tell me what I intended by the name I gave it when you don't even know the creator and think it was some other literally who no one cares about.

>>739873049
The progression of the term has been documented. Here's a video with timestamps and everything: https://youtu.be/8seta8xyDQ4?si=JeX4OLVlT9cbBcNN (specifically the "expanding metroidvania" section). Until you can show me any proof your definition was ever widespread, sit the fuck down and stop talking out of your ass.

>>739873163
I don't care about your youtube channel, shill it elsewhere.
You are wrong, that isn't where it originated.

If it doesn't have rpg elements it isn't a metroidvania.

>>739870775
Balancing and quality control are lost art.

>>739873421
Lmao you're just burying your head in the fucking sand now. Get fucked, you autistic faggot.

>>739873491
>"nooo your wrong!!!"
>"why? because I said so!!!!!!!!!!!"
I don't need an argument to dismiss your point because you didn't actually present an argument beyond you just saying that it must be so, and then you linked to your 500 view youtube video as if that makes an argument more valid.

if your argument is just bitching and insisting reality then mine argument is just as valid.

>>739873792
Are you fucking retarded? Like actually? I literally provided an easy to digest video with sources that can easily be verified and you just said "didn't watch ur wrong". Like nigga, if you want to talk about poor arguments take a fucking look in the mirror. You haven't done jack shit to back up your claims. Can you even provide me with ANY evidence that your definition was every actually all that widespread?

Metroidvania are Metroid games taking place in fantasy/medieval setting.
/thread

>>739870775
>Why do so many games call themselves "metroidvania" despite being all metroid and no vania?
people are stupid, there were multiple reviewers who called metroid prime 4 a "metroidvania"

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>>739870775
Well this game doesn't have equipment (only a whip) but it does have leveling. However it is a pretty basic bog-standard metroidvania but it does get quite a bit challenging with around 1hr levels. As well it has unabashed artistic nudity throughout which is worth a purchase on its own for its rare novelty that isn't a porn game.

>>739873792
Also since your a retard who refuses to watch a simple video, here's the biggest deathblow to your shitty definition. Here's an early 2006 thread, back when the term first started to break out of the castlevania community: https://web.archive.org/web/20101124222545/http://gamersquarter.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=893&start=0

Note, the only people arguing about the genre name are people apecifially debating whether or not it should be used only for castlevania games or ALL metroid like games. There are literally zero mentions of their being rpg requirements anywhere.
https://web.archive.org/web/20101124222545/http://gamersquarter.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=893&start=0

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>>739874167
As well, there's this neat leveling up stats screen

>>739873917
I was having a discussion with someone else about metroidvanias and you schizo'd out insisting that it is something else and are the one making claims.
you understand that, that YOU made the claim.
YOU are the one who tried to assert what it means when no one in the chain of replies was talking about it.

So if YOU want to insist that YOU need to provide justification.
I am dismissing your argument with 0 backing with just as strong as an argument, with no justification.
You are not making an argument on logic, you are making an argument on your opinion of history. Which mean you need to present facts and information.
A tiny dude on youtube ranting about it with 0 sources isn't actually an argument.

You have made no argument with information, just you saying shit.
So nothing is needed to dismiss it beyond just saying it.
If you want to assert a claim, provide evidence, again, a bumfuck youtube video isn't anything.
You don't even understand what an argument is clearly.

>>739874275
>So if YOU want to insist that YOU need to provide justification.
Are you retarded? I DID provide justification. You refusing to watch a video does not mean I didn't provide any evidence. Jesus fucking christ you have a problem. Also I'll post it again because you're such a braindead retard: https://web.archive.org/web/20101124222545/http://gamersquarter.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=893&start=0 read this thread from 2006 and tell me where rpg mechanics are mentioned fucking anywhere.

>>739871693
He was in Valdis Story, Shovel Knight, Crosscode and god knows what else

>>739874375
>I did provide justification.
So you posted it 10 seconds before my reply went through, as in, you didn't post any justification when this was being written?
and now you are trying to rewrite history? we can see the time stamps.

Again, you provided 0 justification and you clearly don't understand what an argument is.

You clearly didn't even look at the forum posts because despite the OP listing a bunch of random games, everyone in the replies is clowning him saying that metroidvania means games similar to the style of the koji igarashi castlevania games.
This even includes people who DISLIKE these castlevania games, literally people calling them shitty and the OP is wrong and retarded even though the person dislikes this type of games but still clearly understands what they are and what they dislike.

Fucking retard.

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>>739874375
like my nigga u really provided a source that agrees with me, everyone is calling the OP a retard for thinking that metroidvania means metroid style game, not an RPG mix with metroid style maps.
The RPG elements are core.

>>739874505
Anon, that forum post I linked is specifically mentioned in the video, so yes, I can shit on you for ignoring it.

The vast majority of the posts in that thread are fine with the term and are discussing the list and agreeing that its a fair categorization of games. The problem you fail to realize is that the people disagreeing with the term are upset that it's being used to describe ANYTHING beyond castlevania. It's a point in history where the term is shifting from "castlevania games inspired by metroidvanias" to "any game inspired by metroid". Can you find ANYTHING from 2006 where people claimed metroidvanias had to have rpg elements?

>>739874583
See my new response, but to reiterate that is specifically someone thinking it should only be used for castlevania games. Not "any game inspired metroid that has rpg elements". He's not agreeing with you either, retard. In fact, I would also agree that metroidlike is a better term, but that's not what stuck.

>>739872428
It is.
I wouldn't call it a metroidvania, though. Levels are big but progression between them is strictly linear.

>>739870775
>Why do so many games call themselves "metroidvania" despite being all metroid and no vania?
because that's the genre name that was ultimately settled on. you might as well ask why we call a genre a "genre" instead of calling them categories. language is ultimately arbitrary.

>>739874646
>The vast majority of the posts in that thread are fine with the term
>the vast majority
how would define the vast majority? A majority would have to be at least 51%, a vast majority would have to be at least 70%, right? a super majority is usually 66% or 75%, so a vast majority must be at least 70% then right, maybe even 80%
well not every post is actually talking about the genre, and of the ones that do, only 37% agree with the OP

So not only is it not a majority, but its definitely not a vast majority.
Again, you clearly don't understand what an argument is.
A source of a few people discussing it in 2005 doesn't mean shit, but that doesn't even agree with you.
In a fact a source that has ANY disagreement when are you saying DEFINITIVELY how the word is used means you are completely wrong and need to look at linguistic study and requirements needed to make the claims you are trying to make, you cannot make such dogmatic claims about its etymology just because you think so on such flimsy evidence.

Again.
You don't understand what an argument is.
Go google the term before you speak again.

It's a shame that more Metroidvania don't copy the level system that Castlevania games had I always enjoy them more. Ender Lilies and Ender Magnolia are my favourite indie Metroidvania for that reason and I also love Bloodstained. Way better than shit like Hollow Knight which just feels super basic in comparison.

>>739874859
Holy fucking autism my dude. I genuinely don't know why I'm bothering with someone who types like a 12 year old who just got his access to his first computer. Jesus fucking christ.

Look, ive posted evidence that the term was already spreading by 2006. There's even more evidence you could easily see if you weren't so fucking lazy and refused to watch the video that goes over the exact history. On the flip side, you have done fucking 0 to prove that metroidvania was ever widely used to describe metroid games with rpg elements. Give me fucking ANYTHING that is verifiable or I'm not interested in your shit flinging contest any more.

>>739875040
>ive posted evidence that the term was already spreading by 2006
that isn't what you attempted to present as your argument.
no one said that the term wasn't used in 2006, that wasn't in question.

The argument you were trying to present was the specific usage of the term, not the timeframe of the term.
Remember, this was your initial post to me >>739872942
That is YOUR claim, YOUR core argument, about what the term means what it is referring to.
The date is irrelevant, historical usage is relevant but is secondary to current day meaning.
Pointing out it was used in 2005 to point out historical usage is fine, but historical usage doesn't mean that the definition is what you claim it is.

Your video isn't talking about definition but usage, which is why its irrelevant, which is why you keep trying to bring up irrelevant evidence because they are based on the research you did for the video which is about when it started, and how it spread, not about its meaning.

>you have done fucking 0 to prove that metroidvania was ever widely used to describe metroid games with rpg elements
you quite literally provided a link of a single guy saying that it means metroid clones and DOZENS of people telling him hes a retard because it means games with RPG elements and not metroid-likes.
This fucking thread it self and the creator of it talking about its muddied usage.

Again.
You don't know what a fucking argument is.
You keep flip flopping around and trying to strawman shit then backpeddling.
If you think what I have pointed out ISN'T your argument, then you have failed at making an argument.
Make a clear statement on what your argument IS, then provide evidence for that.
Not irrelevant bullshit talking about other things and sources saying different shit than you claim.

You have no fucking idea how to make an argument or what an argument even is.
Go look up what an argument is and post a definition so we all know u read it.

>>739871501
cope, gba an ds castlevanias are the best

>>739870775
Record of Lodoss War -Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth-

>>739875249
>Pointing out it was used in 2005 to point out historical usage is fine, but historical usage doesn't mean that the definition is what you claim it is.
Look anon, I don't know what else you fucking want. Today, the vast majority of people use metroidvania to describe metroidlikes, and I showed you a time period where the genre definition was shifting. At this point it really is fucking on you to tell me when it ever meant anything else. I'm going to ask you one more fucking time. YOU claimed that metroidvanias had to have rpg elements and I'm asking YOU to back up your claims. Can you do it, like I have? Or you just going to pussy out and say you don't have to despite the fact that I'm specifically challenging your definition.

>>739871501
>>739871860
What is this absolute historical revisionism that the other non SOTN Castlevania's aren't good? SOTN isn't even the best metroidvania style Castlevania. That would be Aria of Sorrow.

>>739870775
Night Castle has experience points used for character level and upgrading weapons/spells, getting these upgrades is limited by the day/night cycle and the further you progress enemies will get replaced with more powerful ones. What made it kino is that exploring at midnight spawns invincible fast enemies chasing you, but with enough skill you can continue to explore

I miss the era when Metroidvanias were comfy sidescrolling RPGs. Now they're all "Souls but 2D" iframe dodgeslop where the only way to proceed is to memorize 1000 different attack timings. Such a downgrade.

>>739871029
>Because castlevania brought nothing to the genre
More like most "metroidvanias" around are nothing like Castlevania. I can think of only about 10 of them, the rest shouldn't be called metroidvanias. Originally, the metroidvania term was created by castlevania fans to differentiate between classicvanias and sotn-style games

>>739870775
>>Why do so many games call themselves "metroidvania" despite being all metroid and no vania?
But almost none of them are like Metroid either

The DS games are great.
I haven't really touched the GBA games, they feel much slower

>>739875971
they are slower, but you should still give circle of the moon and aria a go.

>>739876009
I should give them another try. Is Harmony of Dissonance not good?

>>739871860
What a shit take, I'd willingly replay any of the Castlevanias after SotN than finish La-Mulana or Zero Mission

>>739876058
Shut your whore mouth about Zero Mission

>>739876052
I don't HATE it but it's very meh, it's very easy even by igavania standards and the main gimmick of the castle being multiple dimensions basically just means that you have to explore every location twice with little to no change. Also the music is dogshit.

>>739876158
>Also the music is dogshit.
None of the GBS games have good music. CotM has some decent remixes but thats it

>>739874918
Ender magnolia has some of the best indie Metroidvania gameplay I've seen. Only getting the double jump early on is a bit weird and the story being more intrusive can be annoying. Sadly I don't think the sales where as good as the first games.

>>739876210
>Map lets you know when you collected everything
I wish more metroidvanias did this

>>739871860
>Faxanadu
>Zelda 2
>Battle of Olympus
>Hebereke

based based based

but some other takes later are not so based like not recommending OoE

>>739876052
NTA but it's a bit more polarizing.

>a good few zig-zag-shaped paths to pad it out a bit
>concessions made on music, melodies are mostly fine but the instruments took a hit when compared to others
>magic with subweapons is kinda fun to mess with I guess
>the two castles gimmick is introduced roughly around the middle of the game, it's not amazing; at least the inverted castle let you go crazy with unlocking the vast majority of your moveset at that point
>Maxim is ridiculous as the one unlockable character, but you've probably clocked out by the time you get the good ending anyway

>>739876279
It's one of the things I really liked about both ender games even though the first one was a bit undercooked in terms of gameplay and maps but they fixed it in the second.

>>739871749
Ah yes, and all sedans are SUV's!

>>739870775
Afterimage
Frontier Hunter: Erza's Wheel of Fortune

>>739871860
I enjoyed a lot of those, but I don't agree with you at all on the later Castlevania entries or Bloodstained.

>>739872390
Legacy of the Wizard is great. It is one of those games where you absolutely need to read the manual, though.

>>739875557
I think Aria is largely just a watered down SotN. It has all of SotN's flaws, and can't match any of its strengths.

>>739875839
There's something I really hate about 2D combat centered around dodge rolls/dashes, especially if it means the optimal approach is dodging through enemies and hitting them in the back for the whole game.

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Today I bought this, plus the Castlevania Advance and DS collections, and I have more games like these in my backlog. I'll be busy for a while.

>>739876279
>>739876442
I fucking wish Silksong would have learnt that lesson. Doing clean up was such a monumental fucking chore in that game. Genuinely one of the worst clean up experience I've experienced in any metroidvania ever. Also yeah Ender Magnolia is my all time favourite metroidvania, shame it didn't do as well as Lilies.

>>739870775
Afterimage is very much a Castlevania game in all regards except movement

>>739877421
>Afterimage
Art looks really nice for that, in what ways would you say it's like a Castlevania game then cause movement is a pretty important aspect of what makes the games what they are.

>>739872672
true, but that's not how 99% of people use it.

>>739872474
Bloodstained more like *hehe* like- *hah* Shitstained *kikiki*

>>739877496
There's a backstep button. There's equipment slots and stats like ATK and DEF. You have different weapon types with different swing speeds, certain weapons have special skills, there's a MP bar to use spells that require you to stay grounded. You have the signature double jump dropkick move working in the same as Castlevania. I don't remember exactly but I believe you receive an upgrade similar to gravity boots (and variations) very late into the game. I think the way you fight the bosses is similar as well. I say everything but movement because Afterimage has a "air dash" as the main movimentation. In a patch they made it so that you start with the air dash move because people complained about spamming backstep being too slow early game or whatever. Castlevania never really used air dashes as your main movement option, Richter and Saturn Maria could spam Air Dash but it required more input than just spamming a button so it isn't the same. By the way, setting-wise it isn't Castlevania, I mean purely in a gameplay perspective.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1429500/Frontier_Hunter_Erzas_Wheel_of_Fortune/

>>739871029
>>739875848
Every Metroid game plays like a Metroid game. Only a handful of Castlevania games do.

The name should be Metroidlike.

>>739877789
I see that still sounds decent. I've played a bunch of different indie metroidvania so I'm fine with the setting being it's own thing. Thanks anon I'll add it to my wishlist. I'm pretty sure I've seen it in passing going on some significant sales too.

Reminder if your complaints about COTM are
>double tap to run
You are weak
>card farming is boring
You don't like video games
>bosses too hard
Git gud

>>739878574
>double tap to run
It's objectively bad
>card farming is boring
Farming the same enemy over and over again isn't video games and the card system is incredibly poorly implemented.
>bosses too hard
Nobody says this, COTM is one of the easiest games in the series.

Still love the game though but you're retarded.

>>739875557
>That would be Aria of Sorrow.

This is your brain on GBA fuckboy nostalgia cu-ckporn.

>>739878574
I think "double-tap to run" being a complaint is just a meme because you should have played Richter Mode and gotten used to the controls by that point. I mean, who starts with Circle of the Moon anyway? Double-tap to dash is way worse in the few Megaman games where you can't use the dash button and I got used to that too.

>>739878697
>nostalgia
I played my first Castlevania game only 6 years ago when I was in my early 20s.

>>739878574
>>739878716
Double tap to run isn't bad in of itself, it's bad because of how constantly it deactivates if you do basically anything and need to double tap again to activate it again. It makes the movement, especially in boss fights feel super clunky and unresponsive.