Just did another playthrough of this, and I never really thought about it before but how does killing Ganondorf in the future change anything when the timeline is reverted to the past? Wouldn't that undo everything adult Link did? Ganondorf would still be alive (or unsealed, whatever) in the past, wouldn't he? The only explanation I can think of is that Zelda goes and tattles to her dad to get him locked up, but I'm pretty sure she mentions trying that when you first meet her and the king tells her to fuck off.This has probably been discussed to death already but I never really thought about it til now. Game is still great, not trying to go Cinema sins on it. Almost seems like the game would make more sense if you started in the ruined future and went to the past to fix things. I get as an actual video game that wouldn't make sense with the difficulty curve though.
Also unrelated but god damn its crazy how empty Hyrule field is. Every time I go back to the game I keep thinking they mustve at least put some heart pieces out there or something but its damn near completely empty. I get just having a 3d overworld was impressive for the time but you would think they would know to at least put something there. I didn't even bother getting Epona this time because you never need to be there for more than a minute or 2.
>>739988717If Link still has the power of the medallions when he's sent back maybe him and Zelda just seal Ganondorf away pre-emptively, sort of like what's shown in Twilight Princess
Constants and variables
>>739988717Official answer is Link and Zelda provide much more definitive proof that Ganondorf is plotting something with Link's pre-knowledge and he's deported from Hyrule or killed, whichever; Link is friends with Zelda on a personal level in Majora's Mask and didn't have to redo OOT in its entirety on being sent back to reclaim his childhood
>>739988717Zelda sends Link further back than the Master Sword sends him. When he meets Zelda in the new timeline, he has a Triforce brand, so the King of Hyrule is convinced to take Zelda's prophecy dreams seriously.>Wouldn't that undo everything adult Link did?The future was originally supposed to lead into ALTTP and all the previous games, with the new history being a world where Ganon never rises to power at all. Then Aonuma threw both these things out the window.
>>739988717my headcanon was always that the Sage's magic used to seal him away worked outside of time or some shit. but yeah, as others mentioned I think the canon explanation is that Link came back with the proof that Ganon was a bad guy and they sealed him away early. Twilight Princess is the future of the "successful Link" timeline so you can see what happens there kind of.
>>739989517>so you can see what happens there kind of.do we though?
>>739988717>how does killing Ganondorf in the future change anything when the timeline is reverted to the past?It doesn't. You can't prevent Ganondorf coming to power, but in the future you'll stop him. That's the point. You return to the past knowing Hyrule will have a future after the darkness because you've already won it for them.
>>739988717when link gives zelda the ocarina of time at the end of the game she sends him back to before everything happened and it changes the course of history. thats why at the end of the credits is young link walking up to zelda in the courtyard again.
>>739989586>this city will be turned to ash and people will die(?) but its ok because 7 years from now I'll stop him
these are all actually good and helpful explanations, thank you
>>739988904As a kid just having a big open field to play in was the magic. Riding Epona was fun, so you just needed a big open space to ride in.Part of what makes OoT so timeless is that they really understood how kids play. As a kid you don't really care about progressing the story or doing quests for rewards, you just fuck around with the tools and toys the world gives you. Who needs dungeons when you can spend hours just fucking with the chickens in Kakariko
>>739989558well I said "kind of" for a reason, TP in typical Zelda fashion has its own take on things that don't line up perfectly with the other games, but the broad events are supposed to be what happens after Link goes back in time in Ocarina.
>>739989672Are you a child? It's not okay and it's not supposed to be. Bad things happen that are out of your control, you can only make the world better after the fact. The deku tree dies despite your best efforts, but a new tree grows in its place. It doesn't make the death okay, it just makes the world after a better place.
>>739989828why would the sages apologize for covering for link(zelda's) mistake and sealing away ganon
how doe she have the triforce of courage anyway, it just doesnt make sense. He didn't go back with it because there is a triforce of courage in the adult timeline still (albeit shattered)did he just automatically get the child timeline triforce when he went back?
>>739989854>that are out of your controlhe could not pull the sword
>>739989957Young Link doesn't pull the Master Sword in the new timeline, yes.
>>739990035how do you know?
Don't try to make sense of the time travel when the windmill guy exists
>>739989890what? that's not why they're apologizing, it's cause they were careless when they went to execute him and didn't realize he had the triforce of power, so they ended up banishing him to the twilight realm where he still had power and set in motion the events of TP. they're basically apologizing for not disposing of him properly.
>>739990060i asked him
>>739989924I just assumed it exists outside of time. Once the Triforce recognizes you, it always recognized you. That's Providence baby
I never understood why Young Link in OoT is not allowed to use the Master Sword, but shitter link in WW is.
>>739990245Fi all out of batteries :(
>>739990245you still need to power up the sword in WW, out of the stone in OoT its at full power
>>739989558I always wondered why TP even bothered with the Sages as a plot-point since OoT strongly implied everybody that became a Sage died before doing so, then TP says they're living men and Ganondorf mercs the Sage of Water.
>>739990062Windmill guy's a pretty normal bootstrap paradox
>>739990245He's just better despite what you thinkalso he's 3 years older than young link
>>739990437>OoT strongly implied everybody that became a Sage died before doing so,because that's the most fan theory thing to come out of this series
>>739990245because the point of OoT was to have a time traveling adventure. I don't see you complaining about ALttP Link getting the thing.
>>739988717They basically sequel baited with Ganondorf threatening to kill their descendants and everyone partying in the future, at the same time Link got sent back to meet Zelda again as kids - with the Triforce of Courage still on his hand visibly. There's a reason why Wind Waker AND Twilight Princess both directly followed off of these hooks after Majora's Mask got one more game in the era done.
>>739990580Where'd Darunia go after he went into Volvagia's boss room without the Megaton Hammer anon
>>739990060Because you don't have it in MM
>>739990245WW Link is apparently old enough to wield the Master Sword, though confusingly he's also "the same age as the Hero" for his island's tradition plopping him into adult Link's clothes, and the statue of OoT Link in Hyrule Castle very much shows that's not the caseMuddled traditions and Link in WW is not the same kind of guy as OoT's Link
>>739989924>did he just automatically get the child timeline triforce when he went back?Yeah. Link got his instantly, Wisdom and Power took a while to 'catch up' and bestow themselves to the ones qualified to have them.The "divine prank" in TP wasn't an actual thing that Din went out of her way to do, it's more like a comment on how atrocious the Triforce of Power's timing was. But the game never mentions how/when the Triforce of Wisdom came into the Royal Family's possession, so it saving Ganondorf at the last second reads as more malicious than it's supposed to be.
>>739990245young link in ocarina was a kid with zero training, a swimming scale, a couple spells and some dungeon equipment to his name. the master sword did it as a very careful preventative measure since we visibly saw ganondorf bowl the kid over minutes prior; it needed link stronger, older, and more capable. wind waker link by comparison has combat training and is one of the better combatants in the series on his own merits, enough to actually take on ganondorf by comparison with some help from tetra, plus the sword didn't really have a luxury of the temple of time and stowing away for another hero when there was no hero's lineage to rely on anymore.WW link, more than anything else, was a chance gamble that paid off.
>>739990592Because he got the thing and it worked.
>>739990752>wind waker link by comparison has combat traininganon...
>>739990767So what's the issue with WW Link exactly?
>>739990808Yes, that is literally him getting combat training
Malon wonFish bitch lost Go suck eggs bitch
>>739990437>>739990617TP is the timeline where Link won, went back in time, and Ganon got got before taking over Hyrule, so the sages didn't die in that timeline (at least not in the way they do in OOT). although then they wouldn't have been sages at that point. I don't know. it's best not to think about it too hard. maybe in TP they are not living men, but the spirits of the original sages who reside in the sacred realm, and Ganon is able to "kill" one of them because he posseses the Triforce of Power. I mean they certainly look more like spirits of some kind than men even in the flashback.
>>739990829I thought you said zero training, fuck
>>739990808That nigga knows how to do a Spin Attack and has a Knight's Crest, he's a very seasoned warrior and the best possible teacher a Link could have
>>739990913You will never recover from this embarrassment
>>739991092
>>739991016to another another anon's thing about lttp link, he also had the spin attack and his uncle was a former knight, too. honestly a number of these links are either carrying badass in their lineage, have pre-existing training, and/or pass on from a previous game as a pre-existing hero. TP link had cheats from the start despite no knight training because of the triforce and an inherent lineage skill i guess.it makes ocarina/majora link the more impressive all things considered because all he was was some random kid saved from a civil war without any serious combat training, just adventure ambition, and only having the skyward sword excuse for hero reincarnation shit, because until he takes the master sword he's 100% all his own earnings.
>>739990701>WW Link is apparently old enough to wield the Master Sword, though confusingly he's also "the same age as the Hero"An unused concept for Wind Waker was that the characters were supposed to age as the game went on.Someone must have been really attached to the idea because you can still feel it in the story sometimes. The thing with him evidently being fit to wield the Master Sword (although you could claim Link saving it from its depowered state might've gotten him a pass), and the way Prince Komali ages several years in what can't be longer than a month after gaining his wings.
>>739991223>an inherent lineage skillWHO is link's father?
the Zelda timeline was a mistake
>>739991304All that matters is there is a hero, a princess, and a villain. Anything more is fluff.
>>739991223also can't forget the very first link from zelda 1 who is a goddamn ten year old trying to save all of hyrule simply because it was in trouble and just brute forces his way through it all. zelda 2 has its own challenges but he's a proven hero at that point at sixteen >>739991280he's hero of time's descendant but it does burn my ass how every single link simply has no parents or immediate family besides WW link. shit, botw/totk link was supposed to have a father and sister, but they not only don't get mentioned in those games, the english localization of the artbook and other stuff tried to excise their entire existence altogether because Nintendo of America is obsessed as hell with self-insert Link
>>739991357>he's hero of time's descendanthe cant be. OoT link gets stuck in the lost woods/termina, hence being the shade
>>739991223>TP link had cheats from the start despite no knight trainingRusl is the one who gave TP Link basic sword training.
>>739991382wrong. he escaped Termina and died later as an adult. pretty sure one of the lore books even insinuates he had a kid at some point
>>739991382nah, canonically hero of time simply left back to hyrule, the whole thing of him becoming some sort of stalfos was just fan headcanon based entirely off of his appearance and nothing else. hero's spirit explicitly declares in the game that the TP link is his descendant.
>>739991425wrong>>739991459>hero's spirit explicitly declares in the game that the TP link is his descendant.when?
>>739991357>botw/totk link was supposed to have a father and sister, but they not only don't get mentioned in those gamesBOTK Link's father gets mentioned exactly one time in BOTW. Zelda uses him as a metaphor to bitch and moan about her destiny. That's it.
>>739988717>Just did another playthrough of this, and I never really thought about it before but how does killing Ganondorf in the future change anything when the timeline is reverted to the past? Wouldn't that undo everything adult Link did? Ganondorf would still be alive (or unsealed, whatever) in the past, wouldn't he? The only explanation I can think of is that Zelda goes and tattles to her dad to get him locked upCongratulations, yes, you have come to the point and reason of the timelines diverging. Defeating him in the future saved the Adult Timeline, but Ganondorf wasn't killed there, only sealed. He broke free as Ganon, ravaged Hyrule, and with the Spirit of the Hero unable to reincarnate, the Golden Goddesses flooded Hyrule in response to the peoples' prayers to save them from Ganon. Thus resulting in Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks.When Zelda returned Link to the past he told her younger self about the events that would occur in the future, and Zelda informed her father, successfully convincing him of his treachery. Ganondorf was sentenced to execution in the Arbiter's Grounds, formerly the Gerudo Desert, and sealed in the Twilight Realm when he survived the execution and manifested the Triforce of Power. This is the Child Timeline, resulting in Majora's Mask, and later on Twilight Princess.There is a third timeline resulting from Ganon defeating Link in their final battle among the ruins of Ganon's Tower. This resulted in Ganon claiming the Triforce, using it to transform the Sacred Realm into the Dark World, and he was then sealed away inside it in the Imprisoning War. This is the Downfall Timeline, resulting in Link to the Past, Link Between Worlds, Zelda 1, and Zelda 2.
>>739991529>This resulted in Ganon claiming the Triforce, using it to transform the Sacred Realm into the Dark WorldThat isn't exclusive to Downfall. Rauru says the sages are trapping Ganon inside "the Evil Realm" at the very end, so the Sacred Realm was already corrupted.
>>739991497Link dying in Termina is retarded headcanon. it doesn't make any sense, I'm not going to entertain it. I'm not sure of TP Link being the hero's shade's descendant or not, but iirc he is the only person in Ordon Village with pointed ears which definitely points towards him having some interesting heritage.
nta but the TP manga explicitly states he is OOT Link, but I don't think he ever said he had a kid. We all like to think he had a family with malon because delicious farm girl milkers
>>739991497>hero's spirit explicitly declares in the game that the TP link is his descendant.>when?Depends entirely on how you interpret the Hero's Shade saying "carries the blood of the hero, spirit of the sublime beast", it could be in a very literal sense as he is Link's descendant and the carry-over of LTTP's say-so that the Hero is the descendant of one of the Hylian knights defending the Sages in the Imprisoning War, could be in a more metaphorical sense that both Links are The Hero and chosen of the Triforce of Courage and transform into a wolf when entering twilight regardless of any actual genetic lineageHero's Shade is 100% clear that they have a connection as The Hero but might or might not be speaking in metaphors when he says there's "hero's blood" between them
>>739991746the TP manga also has King bulbin slicing link's arm off, its not canon
So whats supposed to happen is you're supposed to throw your copy of hyrule historia into the trash, and completely forget about the whole true canon timeline faggotry you fuckhead forced.
>>739991917Hyrule Historia is kind of massively retarded, sure, but this one's on Nintendo even before that for making explicit links between the game plots themselves. Historia only fanned the flames with really weird and silly bullshit slipped in there like the game over ending.
>>739992027
>>739988904Nigga you lyin, epona is required to beat the game (can't get into hylia lake or gerudo valley without)And Hyrule field has quite a lot of secrets and holes
>>739992053they were doing that shit since A Link to the Past
>>739992195>epona is required to beat the gameWrong.>can't get into hylia lake The ladders.>or gerudo valley withoutLongshot.
>>739992195>(can't get into hylia lake or gerudo valley without)?Zora's Domain has a shortcut straight into the lake as well as ladders on the sides by the front entry path. Gerudo Valley can be longshotted across the broken bridge. Epona is a convenience and arguably a necessity for the Biggoron Sword quest without glitches, but by pure vanilla game terms you can completely skip her.
>>739989854
>>739992027>Aonuma: Oh, right, let me elaborate on that. Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts; one has Link as a child and the other has him as an adult. This game, The Wind Waker, takes place a hundred years after the adult Link defeats Ganon at the end of Ocarina.And so the Zelda timeline was turned into the infamous wreck it's known as today. The only thing Historia did was sloppily stitch it back together and use it as marketing.
>>739988717>how does killing Ganondorf in the future change anything when the timeline is reverted to the past?Ganondorf isn't killed in the future, he's just sealed which the seal eventually breaks in WW. The reason that it doesn't effect the past is because time doesn't work in that way in Zelda. When Zelda turns back time for Link in OoT, she's essentially removing Link all together from the future and putting him back into the past which is why when Ganondorf's seal eventually breaks in WW, the Hero of Time never showed up again because he was in the past.
>>739992521are we sure WW doesnt happen after Majora's mask?
>>739992521>>739992612I like Wind Waker more as the outcome of OOT Link losing than I do as the outcome of him winning.
>>739988717A wizard did it.
>>739992612Honestly it is a pretty interesting idea of Zelda just being so fucking stupid as a recurring trend in that game even she points out; yay we sealed Ganondorf, but I'll send the Hero of Time back to his childhood to live a normal life! Oops, this means I accidentally cancelled out ANYONE stopping Ganondorf because now there's no hero in the future.An entire Hyrule sunk and buried in the annals of history because one girl fucked with time and didn't think twice about the consequences, and her own descendants had to catch the hell for it.
>>739990062>>739990508The windmill thing is actually a serious problem, because the puzzle you're given makes no sense given that time travel is clearly established to work so that things you've 'already done' are what affect the future you're in. Having one exception there changes what would be an obvious clue to something that implies someone else had done something in the meantime to cause the windmill to mess up which would actually be the correct way to change the situation so that it works about and ultimately makes sense. However even that wouldn't explain how the windmill dude is playing the exact song the whole time and yet acts like it's new to him and that he 'learnt' it from you.
>>739992960I think the Windmill thing was just a random idea they had as they were reworking the game from the "Ganon's Castle as a pastiche of Peach's Castle" to the time travel concepts and so forth. Like, a nonsensical paradox that feels like it has no proper start point, and all just to empty a well because the windmill was inexplicably tied to it? There's little bits of this throughout the game that feels like random stuff pressganged together to make a product out of ideas that were born at random points in development, or got cut about to try to make ends meet because of losing the Disk Drive.Even some of the truth Sheikah Stones hint at weird stuff like that, such as the cut concept for Ingo setting Lon Lon on fire instead of locking the gates, and Link rescuing Malon via Epona directly.
>>739993081Kill yourself
>>739993096>Like, a nonsensical paradox that feels like it has no proper start pointThis element is unnecessary and could be reworked into the game simply establishing playing the song on a magic ocarina will summon a storm in a way that causes the windmill to speed up.>all just to empty a well because the windmill was inexplicably tied to it?Like I'm saying, that makes perfect sense, it's actually just weird that the song speeds up the Windmill when you play it *inside* the building, but not outside it, where the actual canvas is. It's a perfectly fine problem and solution, given that the mechanisms at work are established, but the way it's actually presented in the game is a load of nonsense that I'd really want to be altered for the remake.
>>739992741Come on this meme of trying to paint zelda sending link back to his own time as the the most retarded thing in video games is getting out of hand. The dude was sealed away, sealed away means sealed away. Not to mention if ganondorf came back after Link had died (im pretty sure he did) it'd be the same thing. There was no eternal cycle of reincarnation shit in OoT.
>>739993096>all just to empty a well because the windmill was inexplicably tied to itBecause the well is not a natural well, it's the mouth of an underground cistern and the windmill pumps it. You can infer this just by going down the well and seeing that the bottom is a big elaborate stone structure with water channels and fountains. The game doesn't need to explain this to you because it just shows you instead.The whole theme of Kakariko is that everything is hidden behind an unassuming facade. The well hides an elaborate underground cistern, the windmill is really a water pump, the graveyard hides a torture dungeon and mass grave and the unassuming townsfolk hide that the village is actually ruled by royal assassins.
>>739993842impa isnt an assassin and nothing implies the village is ruled by her
>>739988717>Just did another playthrough of this, and I never really thought about it before but how does killing Ganondorf in the future change anything when the timeline is reverted to the past?Play wind waker retard
>>739993772Time travel seems to be an enormous mental filter for a lot of people and they'd be incinerated where they stood if they actually read By His Bootstraps
>>739994086>impa isnt an assassinShe carries a long knife at her hip and is from the race that is known to do nefarious bloody deeds for the royal family.>nothing implies the village is ruled by herThis is "I didn't play the game" tier
>>739994562>she carries a knife, thus she's an assassin.. Yah every other impa has been an old granny chambermaid but she's an assassin because theres a dungeon under the well>This is "I didn't play the game" tierthis is "I made it up" tier
>>739988904It has 10 unique ghosts and caves with heart pieces in them, and the map isn't very large.
>>739994086She's a Sheikah, the protectors of the royal family and the silencers of threats to them, not to mention this Impa literally does fucking ninja flashbang shit and was implied to have taught Zelda what she uses as Sheik for similar methods. The Sheikah are effectively the secret police of Hyrule as far as Ocarina presents them. Most other games in the series go back to Impa simply being a chambermaid, but this is the one exception. Kakariko itself is formerly a Sheikah village that Impa then opened up to the whole public, not just strictly her house, and thus she's seen as the leader of the village by association.
>>739991529IIRC LttP Link is also the same link in Link's Awakening and the Oracle games. the dude has 4 adventures under his belt, so he beat ganon's ass twice.
>>739996254Link's Awakening 100%, not entirely sure about Oracles Link since those were weird times where Capcom was taking inspiration and characters from Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask
>>739996326
kwab
>>739996515>>739996326I forgot to add, but IIRC the defeated timeline has two links. LttP link which goes onto the oracle games +LA then Zelda 1+2 link which is different. I might be reading this wrong.
>>739996515>link goes back in time>ganon is only executed AFTER majora>ganon is somehow resurrected twice before WW even happens
>>739996515Oracles' placement in the Historia you can bet your buttons is only there because they had no idea of where else to put it
>>739996515Another big point of bullshit on the Historia is FSA was originally intended to be an Imprisoning War game before Miyamoto ran in and demanded the plot be kept down, there's scrapped text about not being worthy of drawing the Master Sword
>>739990913i will remember you and your fail specifically.
>>739993096Given that the blue Song of Time blocks were originally supposed to warp between the two time periods instead of just disappearing, I think they had plans for far more puzzles based around doing things in one time to affect the other time. But as you say, it was probably scaled down due to time constraints or the shift away from 64DD
>>739988717Link has the triforce of courage at the end and knows that ganon tried to screw over the Gorons and fucked with Jabu Jabu even if he returned to before solving any of that, he even knows what ganondorf's moms did to his top subordinate did to her if the king has any doubts
>>739988717Zelda already split the timeline in the ending. That's why Link is nowhere to be found in Hyrule when everyone is celebrating Ganon's defeat and Epona returns to Lon Lon Ranch and Malon.
>>739991234These look really cool.Shame they couldn’t add it.The game was clearly designed around it with things such as returning to Outset Island older and more experienced.
>>739990179This is correct. The triforce is omnipotent. Since Link had earned it, it went back in tome with him. This causes the Triforce of Courage to shatter on the original timeline. On he new one, it splits eith thw other pieces going to those worthy. Power remains dormant i Ganondorf until his execution. This is the "divine prank" that the Sages mentioned.OoT Zelda, fucking with time and things she couldn't comprehend, wound up giving Ganon the Triforce of Power anyway.
>>739998937>the blue Song of Time blocks were originally supposed to warp between the two time periodsThey do exactly that in the actual game. Most of the time you just don't see where they supposedly warp to though.
