>>740002334
what about games where you need to get items to solve puzzles

Skill and knowledge gates will never be as popular since they're natural filters, items and RPG progression allows any idiot to beat a game

Ooo has the perfect balance between knowledge gating and ability gating.

>>740002334
Was "myst' even really a knowledge gate game? It's more 4 digit code bullshit than "oh, cool, how did I miss that"
I feel like it's just a way for devs to describe "a puzzle game that isn't Tetris" to joirnalists
Plus witness is on an island

>>740002452
imagine an adventure game with the knowledge gating of a myst and the skill gating of a fromsoft/team ninja, could this even exist

>>740002334
Both these games are awful and so much worse then Myst

>>740002542
myst can be beaten in 2 minutes once you know the endgame sequence, those two do something similar (same in ow but more convoluted, more of an optional thing in tw)

>>740002542
Myst 1 is like nothing. You go to the big Answer tower to get the answer to each puzzle and then the sub-bookworld puzzles kinda just fucking solve themselves. You can skip most of it by already knowing the answers I guess but who cares.
So not really, I agree.

>>740002542
Myst is mostly "pull this lever and guess what it did four screens away" sort of crap. Some of it is observation, and some is trial and error.

>>740002334
idk what that means but I liked The Witness more

outer wilds is made by jews

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>>740002984

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>>740002334
>knowledge gating > item gating
Don't you need to do both in Outer Wilds to get any of the endings?

>>740002334
I can't really think of another game with "knowledge gating" besides Outer Wilds
Unless you consider just knowing the solution to a puzzle a knowledge gate

>>740003167
Well there's the witness
You don't understand how particular puzzle pieces work until you find their tutorial area
Then you "unlock" the ability to solve any puzzle with those pieces

>>740002696
No it isn't, it literally has a giant fucking tower that gives you all the answers to each puzzle specifically, like no guessing just "this is the answer to this puzzle", by lining it up for the main island and all the sub islands are like pipemaze levels of non-puzzle. It isn't Hexen.
It's a shit game, but it's shit in all the ways that make people criticizing it come across as not having played it. You hate it for the wrong reasons.

>>740003271
what

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>>740002696
>>740003271
A lot of Myst's game design choices were born through technical limitations.
In the initial release of the game, each Age was a fucking HyperCard stack. It's the equivalent of trying to make a game using Microsoft Office PowerPoint. It's un-fucking-believable that they actually managed to put something functional together.
Eventually they did Masterpiece Edition, which I believe actually remade the game with a proper engine, but used the same assets. Then they remade it completely from scratch three more times. realMyst, realMyst: Masterpiece Edition, and Myst 2020 are all completely different games on different engines, remade entirely from scratch each time.
Pic related. There it not a single texture, model, or line of code shared between these four versions.

>>740003094
No. You can pick up items in Outer Wilds, but none of them are permanent, everything gets reset. The ending requires bringing a certain item from one place to another, and the game is about finding out that that is, in fact, what you need to do and how to do it.

>>740002564
closest I can think of is noita. figuring that game out going in blind was an insane experience I doubt will ever be recaptured.

>>740002452
It will never be as popular because it kills replayability. You can always fight your way to the hookshot again, but once you know that you need to tickle the horse statue's ball sack to proceed, everything meant to teach you that lesson can now be skipped without a second thought. These "metroidbrainia" games are inherently limited in their appeal as a result. Even a light spoiler would ruin the intended effect of the discovery

>>740003369
There are actually a few exceptions to this.
Reaching Solanum and completing the DLC have tangible effects on the ending. You can't get the full-length ending sequence by simply doing The Final Run, you have to do those first. Also, completing ship log entries changes the DLC's ending.

>>740002696
There's no trial and error in Myst. If you pay attention everything can be figured out by just looking at what you're dealing with. This was at the heart of their design philosophy

>>740003550
>There's no trial and error in Myst.
The selenitic age maze

Starting to think nobody in this thread played Myst.

>>740002334
Outer Wilds was such a fucking lame excuse for this type of game.
The reward for every puzzle was the solution to the next puzzle, meaning you never actually need to solve a puzzle.

>>740002437
That's still item gating. A puzzle game without items like Baba is You isn't knowledge gated; it's just a puzzle game

>>740003641
You mean the one where a sound is played at each fork, telling you which path to take? I agree that reusing the sounds from the Mechanical Age was stupid, but you're still given clear cues

>>740003729
lol what

>>740003784
That's like saying baba is you is an item gated game, since you have to move items around inside levels

>>740004036
So literally all puzzle games are knowledge gated, then? What about games where you need to know how to play to be able to play them? You know, like all games ever made? RTS is knowledge gated since one you know the strategy needed to beat a map, you can just do it again

>>740003332
>every screenshot looks like a generic game of its era
heh, neat

>>740003481
Knowledge skips is literally one of the most soulful forms of replayablity there is

>>740003934
It's a midwit game.
Instead of allowing players to figure out things on their own, every puzzle will provide some "insight" into how to solve another puzzle. Effectively turning the game from a series of separate challenges into a single breadcrumb trail.
>Rush to the sand planet, follow the maze, find the secret room, climb up before time runs out aaaaaand...
>Oh... it's just the game literally telling you how to get past the angler fish that you already got past.

>>740002334
Doesn't Outer Wilds have a bunch of woke shit in it? Isn't there gay aliens or something?

>>740004503
I think you got filtered.

>>740004592
>Filtered
>Because you complained that the game was too easy
You're retarded. I don't have anything else to add.

>>740004665
Yeah ok have a nice night I guess.

>>740004558
Depends. Do you consider having an alien species that is biologically hermaphroditic woke?

>>740004503
Zoomers will never understand. The few "puzzles" in the game tend to just be players getting confused by the instructions like "uh use the jellyfish" which means you have to enter from a specific angle and anything else just gets you zapped so you start wondering if you did something wrong because everything else in the game is so fucking straightforward.

As a puzzle game, it's shit. The Witness is at least a puzzle game, but the reward for solving puzzles is.. more pretentious writing, which makes it a little hard to continue playing. The only one of these modern titles to offer both puzzles and a narrative you might be mildly interested in is Void Stranger.

I really like whatever kind of puzzle Chats of Senaar was

>>740002334
Yup. A decent game can have both however. Zero Mission on the surface is an item gated game. Zero Mission in its depths, is a knowledge gated game.

>>740004503
>Rush to the sand planet, follow the maze, find the secret room, climb up before time runs out
Even in your disparagement you described a fun experience. That's the intangible quality that makes OW goated and shit like the witness forgettable. In OW (you) are an upstart explorer actively engaging in exploring a dangerous and mysterious unknown. It conveys an experience of adventure. In the witness you are a floating head gliding at roomba speed through a series of lab experiments.

No, because you can look it up on the internet

>>740004715
I hate the trope of calling things reddit, but I sincerely believe Outer Wilds is the definitive "Reddit" game.
>Puzzles are simple and solutions are provided.
>Solutions to puzzles are completely intuitive, but answers are still provided
>Pseudo shit like "quantum" puzzles with verbiage that sounds smart but is dropkick simple.
>Le Heckin Wholesome camping aesthetic
>>740005217
>WOW You said Rush and Secret in the same sentence!? Holy heckin gameplay!
Also
>Conveys a sense of adventure
No it fucking doesn't you fucking manipulable cunt. Stop reading the box art.

>>740004368
I'm with you for smaller skips, but not for skipping half the game or more

>>740005496
I think it's just streamlined to the point of boredom. Same reason Valve's games are awful, too many retarded playtesters so everything needs to be dumbed down.

>>740005217
>THE ADVENTURE!
The first time, maybe.

I'm reminded of my first time in the DLC area when everything is fresh and exciting and you're thinking there will be some mad dash final run, but it winds up like the base game all over again with you just waiting around for things to happen (not to the same extent at least), and then getting a very simplistic "final challenge" that only a retard would fail.

>>740003481
I have no interest in replaying any game that's longer than 30 minutes. OW doesn't apply here because while it is less than 30 minutes long, it's a very boring 30 minutes.

>>740005714
I think skipping half the game is fine when you're skipping half of every area and not skipping half the areas.
Like Duke's Skip, New Londo dropdown and the Tomb of the Giants runthrough line are totally fine who cares.

>>740005496
Describing a sequence of the witness: you walk about and touch ipads until a laser pointer decides it has had enough viagra to ardously become erect.

>>740003481
>It will never be as popular because it kills replayability
It's true but I think open world also kills replayability, I can replay ALTTP or Dark Souls but I have zero desire to ever replay Elden Ring or BOTW, yet they're massively popular.

>>740004503
>Effectively turning the game from a series of separate challenges into a single breadcrumb trail.
That's not true at all, it is possible and expected that players will go to places and solve puzzles "out of order". Just not the big end-game ones that require specific knowledge.

>>740002334
The Witness is a top 3 puzzle game, All Time so it's no surprise it exemplifies superior patterns

>>740004503
Midwit take on a high IQ game. The breadcrumb design isn't analogous to puzzles, it's locks and keys (and marvelously clever and creative at that, like how soulless do you have to be to not see and appreciate the sheer design ingenuity on display). The "puzzle" aspect is typically knowing
- how to interpret and extrapolate from non-linear, partial information (try to play without the computer that remembers, links and digests the info for you and you'll realize it's a very active process)
- how to manipulate the time aspect, knowing where and how to be at the right time and at the right place which requires experimentation and observation (how many got filtered by the "final" puzzle simply because they didn't think to use their gadget and noticed a part of the level design),
- and all the theory elaboration and testing that happens along the way like in a proper detective story ("I see x, I wonder if y does/did z, oh crap now I get new info that recontextualize what I thought I knew, so maybe z is linked to x? etc")

>>740002564
>could this even exist
Certainly, but 99% of gamers would hate it while the other 1% think it's the GOAT

>>740004715
>the reward for solving puzzles is.. more pretentious writing
what the fuck am I reading

>>740006482
Just ignore him. He's a person that thinks video games are real acheivements and a high clearance rate for a game is indicative of low quality. He isn't even processing reality from the angle of engagement. Some "challenges" have low clear rates because they are a dull experience where sufficient interest is not provided to generate the required motivation to engage with the challenge. Completion rates are not a measure of difficulty alone.

>>740006791
You're so fucking retarded it hurts.
They're not locks and keys because the fucking door is open.
Everything else you've said would literally be LESS hallucinated coming out of open AI's most recent hallucinatron.

>>740006965
You're too much of a midwit to understand that what he's talking about is the sense of accomplishment. When you figure out a difficult puzzle in a game, it's a wonderful feeling. You should try it some time, go play Myst without a guide.

>>740002564
That is the game TUNIC

>>740002334
i like both of those games, but myst is absolutely terrible

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Zelda should rip off OW instead of assassin's creed next then tendies will get their mind blown and think they invented something the next big paradigm shift

>>740007050
To be candidly honest I really don't feel much solving puzzles in games. I don't struggle with them much either, but that is why I take more of an interest in the larger scope the puzzle is nested in rather than the immediate puzzle. I full cleared base game baba is you but like 10-20% of that experience I really should have walked away from. Completion as a goal distorts easily into disappointment.

>>740002542
Myst is Western trash.

The only puzzle game I enjoyed from these is the talos principle

>>740006978
But you don't know it's a door and couldn't have known, thus knowledge is the key, it's the same thing you've done in a million games but presented in a novel way
A puzzle is for example figuring out how to reach the highest point of a tower despite there being no way to climb it or how to get past DLC owls, there's no breadcrumbing it's just up to you the player to figure it out and your reward is info (key) for progressing elsewhere, to claim the game doesn't have puzzle situations or that they all follow the breadcrumb model is dishonest and retarded, you just make generalized statements that you think make you sound smart but you cannot think critically about the game design therefore your opinion is easily invalidated.

I played realMyst and I liked it quite a bit.
20 years later I tried it again and I'm just a fucking brainlet

>>740007385
What kind of comment is this?

>>740007361
Agreed. Despite the magic moments along the way, Baba Is You wears out its welcome well before you All Is Done it. Most of the puzzles are clever and novel and force you to think outside of the box, but like one in every five is some bullshit The Incredible Machine 3 contraption made of robots that move themselves to push Is You statements together halfway across the map while your character falls through dust clouds or some shit.

When you get onto a board and there are more Word/Rule tiles than other tiles, you know you're in for a bad time. The charm of your first "Baba Is Win" or "Wall Is You" moment is what people remember from the game which is why it's so beloved, nobody remembers all the dogshit puzzles.

>>740007681
He asked if Myst was a "knowledge gate game", and I replied that Myst is actually Western trash, a much more appropriate description for the game.
And yes, I do like some aspects of Myst. But it's still Western trash with little value other than its historical significance.

>>740007776
I mean it's got nice vibes, and was a stepping stone to Riven/Uru, later Myst games that had pretty immaculate vibes.
On a design level kind of trash but I literally could not name any Nipponese narrative puzzle games. Some abstract stuff maybe but I feel like PnC adjacent stuff is all Western.

>>740008046
why don't Japanese devs trust players intelligence?

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>>740002334
>Knowledge Gating
Top 1 of 1 All Time, coming through

>>740008212
There's noble Nihonese puzzle games, just not a lot of Myst/Monkey Island adventure/narrative integrated ones, that's some sort of divergent evolution at play. But they'll still look at Mahjong and pretend that's not pure bullshit.

>>740008259
more like rng gating

>>740008640
The roguelike aspect is a joke and maybe 30% of the game. The real puzzles are so much worse.

>>740008491
la mulana comes to mind as a cool exception that's pushing the puzzles into deeper territory

>>740008640
>Never learned the play the game
Just place three rooms in the first 30 seconds. Or did you not figure that one out?

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>>740008682
>so much worse

I like the idea of OW but hate the execution of it. Specifically the timer. If you fuck up and crash the ship, or even just miss a jump or something, you effectively have 2 choices: keep going and have time run out just as you finish whatever it was that you wanted to do or kill yourself and spend 10 minutes or so getting back to where you were. It's tedious. Like imagine Dark Souls but every time you die you start all the way back in the asylum. I'm not a speed runner. I don't find joy in doing the same thing over and over and being faster each time.

>>740008998
doesn't change the fact you need rng to beat the game on day 1
definitely not knowledge gated

>>740007097
Tunic (and by extension Animal Well) is how you should not do it. The meta puzzles and combat of those games are completely mutually exclusive. You can easily beat Tunic without touching the meta stuff at all, so it's just a basic Zelda/Souls-like with cryptic puzzles tacked on to it. Same goes for Animal Well. Pretty unique metroidvania but there's nothing interesting to it gameplay-wise.

>>740009617
Tunic is alright because the game is obviously directing you towards the golden path shit, obviously the retarded shit that comes after it is worthless meta bullshit. AW is just pure metafaggot garbage designed to be solved on discord.

>>740002334
I love knowledge gates but they make games unreplayable.
The best example for this is Void Stranger, after you know how to exploit the game and go to every level you want, you can't replay it again "properly". Same with Outer Wilds to be honest, unless you want to explore and see the lore, you already know how to beat the game even after 5 years since you beat it.

>>740003784
what makes you think Baba is You isn't item gated

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I like these

>>740003481
oaky, but counterpoint: I will never replay any of those item gated games anyways

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>>740002334
>knowledge gating > item gating
Yes

>>740003167
Void Stranger

>>740003481
Noita works just fine for replayability.

>>740010056
noita is item gated

Knowledge gain works in Non puzzle games as well
in games like dishonored, mgs 5 and hitman
learning the level design and Enemy AI makes the difference between save scumming for an hour and doing mission in one go under 5 minutes

>>740002334
always funny when midwits think video games are some sort of intelligence metric
you're proud of what's essentially figuring out how to build the funny LEGO figurine but without reading the instructions

if you're so intelligent get a STEM job

>>740010128
It's not. You can beat 100% of the game on a fresh save file. The metaprogression is just about unlocking a couple of spells that aren't really relevant to beating the game. Knowledge is the most important requirement to beat the game, that's literally what the entire game is all about.

>>740010149
But most STEM guys are literal midwits who follow instructions most of the time and do very little problem solving

Only the cream of the crop types the 130-IQ designers and architects are responsible for creating great technology.

>>740010290
what have you created?

>>740010149
80% of the people I have to tard wrangle in my project are really fucking stupid
especially jeet and chink contractors

>>740010325
Stupid amount of 2D video game prototypes lead nowhere because the fun part
trying to figure out complex enemy behaviors
is just a small part of the equation.
You also need soul to design anything truly fun

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>>740009558
>brainlette
anyone stuck on the RNG of Blue Prince just doesn't know how to play the game.

>>740010250
wands, spells, and 'items' are all items you must collect to progress. just because you know that you can gourd komii to complete one of the quests doesn't allow you to skip flying up to the cave and acquiring the gourd first

>>740010368
The STEM myth stems (lol) from nerdy, mostly white guys who were genuinely passionate about problem solving, but like everything else, it has become a field for midwits, where you have 7000 Asian whores doing vibe coding and 6000 hacks trying to find the next scam

>>740006791
You don't manipulate the time aspect tho, you just have to wait for things for happen at a specific point.

>>740010004
would I like noita? is it puzzly? what's the appeal?
I thought it was just rng grinding with destructible environments, does it have more to it than this? I know it has discord arg bs puzzles but I just want sensible stuff i can do alone

>>740010497
You can literally just throw an acid flask on it if you know about it. It's hardly "item gated" when the items are literally scattered everywhere around.
It's like saying that Mist is not "knowledge gated" but "clicker gated" because even if you know the solution you still need to click on things to progress.

>>740010710
did you have to collect an item to click on those things first?

>>740010794
You don't even need to collect any item to beat noita. Just kill the kolmi with your starter wand.

Outer Wilds doesn't really have puzzles so much as instructions.
The game tells you what to do, and even when and where to do it. It's literally just a case of remembering.

>>740010876
killing kolmi is not beating the game. you need to complete all of the pillars

>>740010487
it's not about being stuck lmao retard can you read
in outer wilds once you know what to do you can start a new game and beeline to the end
in blue prince you're still dependant on rng that you're not guaranteed to reach the ending when starting fresh despite having the knowledge to do so, stop being an obtuse asshole when you don't know what you're talking about

>>740010682
It has some puzzles(some which still haven't been solved to this day) but it's not a puzzle game. It's a 2D rougelike platformer.
What sets Noita apart from other rougelikes is that it's kind of a sandbox(open world even) and it puts heavy emphasis on emergent mechanics. Each pixel in the game is simulated like in these old sand particle games. Your wands are composed of spells that you can combine to make powerful magic. There is a ton of secret places, mechanics to discover, interactions to witness. It's not unheard of for people who have several hundreds or even thousands of hours in it to still discover new stuff. It's kind of hard to explain because there really isn't many games like Noita out there.
As for "rng grinding" it really depends. On start you will be bitch to rng because you still do not know how to exploit the game. And it will take a while, it maybe took me 200 runs to even beat the main boss(which people jokingly call the tutorial boss since it's really just the beginning of what this game has to offer). But the game rewards keen observation, experimentation and is all about the knowledge you accumulate. The game is meant to be exploited, and it still tries to give you a challenge to match that. So at some point it moves away from "oh god, I hope I will get this OP spell and skill combo or I am dead in 3rd layer again" to "today let's create this infinity duration giga saw blade throwing wisp summon and collide it with a super buffed final boss and see what happens"

>I know it has discord arg bs puzzles but I just want sensible stuff i can do alone
You can understand beat the game blind easily. You will probably discover a lot of mechanics too.
But if you want to build some OP wands that deal trillions of damage or utility wands to travel to parallel universes and such you will likely need to read the details on wiki.
You will probably not solve eye or cauldron puzzles with or without external help. No one did.

>have mild autism
>will not do a thing unless instructed
>notice quantum tower in water planet
>play entire game looking for how to get there
>it's never explained
>you actually just have to get from outside the planet
>do quantum trials without ever taking photos
>keep trying to get quantum moon via video feed
>quantum moon is actually irrelevant for completing the game
This game was designed to annoy me.

>>740007164
But OW was inspired by Majora's Mask?

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>>740011606
>filtered
There are extremely reliable ways to get anywhere you want. To say nothing of the fact that it is not possible to beat the game in a single day, and a single day should never be viewed as the totality of your puzzle solving experience for any given puzzle
>b b b but room 46
Room 46 is not beating the game, it's finishing the tutorial.

>>740012017
cool, you still need rng to beat it

>>740014582
>Will I draw this room on the first try or the third?
Real restrictive RNG there

>>740016442
you can turn this how you want, still not strictly knowledge gated