>modern MMO>all encounters designed around a pattern>strict rotation you do not deviate from, zero decision making and resource management, skill expression relies solely on how well you can keep up your rotation while dodging telegraphed attacks, very selfish design where you don’t care what your teammates are doing and follow a spreadsheet of skills>completely rigid holy trinity based class design where classes cannot deviate even a little from their established role>solo quest based progression where you follow a quest marker>old mmo>all encounters designed around reacting to what is happening, very few telegraphed attacks>class design is based on holy trinity but does not strictly follow it allowing for tons of hybrid role classes and support classes while creating new roles like buff/debuff support, crowd control and puller, very teamwork oriented design>party based progression, you cannot meaningfully progress through the game without other people and there are no quest markers for you to followYou may not like it but wow is what ruined MMOs right from the beginning as classic wow is the progenitor of quest based progression and global cooldown combat.
>>740007316MMOs aren't ruined because of "modern" design decisions, they're ruined because you aren't a stupid kid running around a virtual playground like a chicken with its head cut off.
>>740007707>mmos aren’t ruined>you just aren’t a kid anymoreVery compelling argument anon. You said absolutely nothing coherent or argumentative.
>>740007316>FFXIV Ninja>follow your rotation to get trick attack out>FFXI Thief>get 100 tp>position yourself behind the mob while also being behind the second tank>use sata right after an auto attack>use weapon skill>big burst damageThe sad thing is that back during arr i think rogue and ninja did use positioned based mechanics in their rotation to get TA off but all that was eventually removed
play eve onlineit's not my fault when you look down into your toilet you only see the turds floating on the surface
MMOs will never be good again until they stop catering to hardcore raiders on twitter/reddit, asian whales, pvpers, discord trannies, and nolifers. MMOs need to fundamentally be about a meaningful journey, personal identity, an interesting shared world, and a general sense of camaraderie. Not forever grinds, microtransactions, or playing gay office politics just to find people to do the content.
>>740007707This. Most of you faggots don't want an MMO, you're just looking to relive your childhood memory of playing a big open world multiplayer game for the first time in your life.
sometimes I get ye olde urge to go back to wow, then I check a stream, and all desire evaporates
>>740009251There is absolutely nothing comparable to an old mmo and a modern day “open world multiplayer”.Old MMOs aren’t “open world survival craft”
>>740007316>implying it was ever what you think was going on in the "old mmo" sectionYou were just ignorant of what you were supposed to be doing, and everyone was annoyed with you.
>>740009401Thats exactly what it was though, because I played them and communicated with other people that told me what to do or what they wanted to do.Not every milenial is a jaded retard who dropped x old mmo after 10 hours of playing it and getting mad they couldn’t find other people to play with due to their anti social insecuritiesAlternatively you’re just a zoomer and never actually got to experience any of that
>>740007316and where are those old mmos now?
>>740009905
>>740010394That's not an answer.Where are they now?
>>740009905Pic related happened to them with wow
>>740007707Kind of true, but you also can't deny QoL because streamlined MMOs too much. You need downtime in MMORPGs to do shit other than combat. Basically, you need the coarse parts that annoy you so you can appreciate the good parts. It's no coincidence the more instant gratification genre got the worse off it became.
>>740010490It is an answer to what you’re looking for
>>740010556What are MMOs?
>>740008056ARR was dumbed down as fuck, but everyone was glad for the game to come back in a better state they didn't care.
>>740010536Instant graftification has never been good and eventually qol just became a meme word that means anything that skips the gameplay
>>740007316having a hunter just to kite during the last boss during UBRS is one of the coolest things
>>740007707>>740009251Is there an official name for this logical fallacy where you assume to know that everyone who disagrees with you is the same person you invented in your head?
>>740007707OP is right and you have zero grasp of good game designPlease refrain from posting retarded takes in the future
>>740010602Because 1.0 was unfinished and ARR was an enjoyable product cor the time. Then shadowbringers happened.1.0 being unfinished and having tons of bugs and a shitty engine doesn’t mean it was bad conceptually it means it had bad development.A game isn’t just fps and graphics
generals for dead tranny games (both of them) belong in /vg/
>>740010394
>>740010602>ARR was dumbed down as fuck, but everyone was glad for the game to come back in a better state they didn't care.It's called a slippery slope and it's very real
>games>every round is designed around a pattern (i.e. rules)>you can play however you want but if you don't play the optimal way you'll keep losing even at tic-tac-toe
>>740007707It's both.
You hate MMOs now because they no longer double as chat rooms and a way to stay in touch with people daily in a world where those were sparse or outright nonexistent.
>>740010771Good thing nobody is using that as an argument. Unlike your retarded uneducated and illiterate mind.
but have you considered that OLD BAD NEW GOOD?
>>740010906Nah, you contrarian fucks definitely think "less popular means more sovl">hehe only 5 people like to play this because it's a shitheap for masochists. this makes me so much smarter and better all those other people are just brown zoomers who got FILTERED
>>740007316You at least still have themepark MMOs.
>>740010914>but have you considered that OLD BAD NEW GOOD?People been doing that for millenia now.
>>740010879IRC, ICQ, AIM messenger, forums, etc all existed back then. Communicating to people in a game wasnt that novel. Old MMOs you came for the game but stayed for the relationships that formed on those long boat rides, recovering mana, etc. In MMOs today you come for the game and quit because the second part doesn't happen - every "relationship" is transactional.
>>740010816Completely false comparison
>>740011061skill issuei talk and make friends with people constantly on these "new bad mmos"maybe try to actually make friends rather than letting the game put your hands together to get a quest done, then going "ggty bye" and believing that is some kind of deep life lasting friendship
>>740010974No thats what you put in your schizophrenic head. The contrarian here is you
>>740011148>historical revisionism and dishonestyNot an argument.
>>740011113No you erp or rp you don’t “talk” because theres no actual game to communicate about
>>740007316>MMIO>patten yeah checks out
>>740011168Thats quite literally what you are doing yes>hehe only 5 people like to play this because it's a shitheap for masochists. this makes me so much smarter and better all those other people are just brown zoomers who got FILTEREDAnd yes you did get filtered. Dunno by what MMOrpg though. Care to enlighten us?
>>740007830stfu you know what he meant, and he's right
>>740011227>No you erp or rpProjection.I literally talk with people I meet and do content with, and it's fun. Sometimes, it's for hours (because that's how long it might require to do that content)All you're saying here is you can't and don't want to make friends or acquaintances ingame unless they serve your needs to make even the slightest modicum of progress through it.
>>740011287Hes not, hes just being bullshit and reductionist because he can’t actually respond to any of OPs points.He can’t even say “i like patterns and rotations” because it would be embarassing for him to admit that.
>>740011286>And yes you did get filtered.Thank you for proving my point.
>waaah waaah old better old betterToo bad old is fucking dead because nobody wants to play it, and nobody's going to spend millions developing a wholly new product to cater to a select group of like at most 5 thousand boomers globally circlejerking about muh olden days when MMOs catered to unemployed 15 years old exclusively and you still expect them to because you never developed past that point.If you want more classic MMOs, you'll have to make them yourselves. A labor of love, and realize that you're likely going to be losing vast amounts of money on it and know that if you take one step outside what one of your fellow "old MMO" enthusiasts might think is 'proper' for the game, they'll leave the game behind at the drop of a hat.You can now proceed to scream, cope, squeal and you can mope, but these are the facts. Give me a thousand seething (You)s if that is what you want, but you're not moving mountains with your angst. You're just throwing a tantrum decrying reality.
I like new MMOs and old MMOs :)But if you're on 4channel you can only like the old MMOs
>>740011489Because people on 4chan peaked in high school? When old MMOs were in their prime?
>>740011309Even if I were to assume all of that was true and not simply compare you to what I actively see in modern day mmo communities, what does the experience of one person mean in comparison to the many? I don’t actually believe you because erpers will disguise their erp behind arguments like these, however, it will never change facts.To any average person playing something like FFXIV today their experience will be the same>queue dungeon>never speak a word to anyone either because you will never see them again or you’re actually playing with npcs or bots>play the entire game solo following quest markers until you get filtered of the same monotonous shit or you start praising how amazing the story is>you try to invite new people into your guild to try and build a community but the sad reality is that most circle jerks are already established and everyone new you encounter is someone who already played the game starting a new character>continuously grind a completely vertical ladder with old content becoming more and more nerfed to encourage you to buy things like level skips and story skips>you will never play with anyone beyond your real life friends and you will also quit the game just as quickly
>>740011113You sound like a giant faggot so I know this is a larp because who would want to talk to you?
>>740011741Apparently plenty of people. I do group content all the time and never had a problem.But maybe that's because I'm a "giant faggot" who doesn't have the uncontrollable compulsion to show his power level every 10 seconds.>>740011678If you want a social interaction, you look for social interaction. It's as simple as that. If you're not looking for any social interaction and actively scorn it, then don't expect to get it.
>>740011678god damn you are socially incompetent as hell. maybe don't run dungeons with bots? maybe try to join an existing guild instead of making your own?of course niche shit like doing old content is going to be rough because it's old content but what the fuck can you do about that? it's torture in every game that keeps stapling more and more expansions onto itself.
>>740011678NTA but as a FF player I've been doing lots of DD in groups as of late and it's been kinda fun. You get to meet quite a few people (although eventually you start to see common faces because the pool isn't infinite, which creates its own sort of connection?) Especially if you do full runs, it tends to mean you're inside of the same dungeon with the same people for at least like 5 hours if you full clear? And in that time I tend to talk plenty. About anything at all, or just a boss inside the deep dungeon you suck at, or that stupid death you or another party member had.It's kinda comfy.
>>740011902>>740011876Its funny how you immediately assume I am “the average person” I mention in my post when I am quite literally criticizing the game for those exact reasons.You don’t have expect otherwise out of the average person thats why I worded my post the way I did not because I would queue dungeons with npcs.You don’t argue with “personal experience”, theres nothing factual aboutIt. The existing problem is because of the many and not the few that decide to break out of the norm. If you don’t force people into social interaction then the MMO will continue to be a cesspool of dogshit and that is a fact you will never be able to deny
>>740012023>FF>dungeon>5 hours
>>740012237Deep dungeon.
>>740012190>your personal experience is not valid>this completely made up story isyeah okay retard
>>740012324Your anecdote loses to human nature. Sorry.
>>740012023Dungeons in FFXIV don’t last 5 hours, they average out 15 minutes at best. Because you queue globally with your data center it is extremely unlikely you will meet someone else again just from using the duty finder. I have been playing that game for more than 10 years and it has never happened to me or if it had then I didn’t even remember the person. No I am not antisocial, I am in an FC and I talk to other people in game or at least attempt to with the basic hello or pointing out something funny that happened. Nobody cares to socially interact besides weirdoes who try to force it or horny desperate people.I literally get patted by random male roes or hrothgars just for being a hrothgar.
>>740012190>If you don’t force people into social interaction then the MMO will continue to be a cesspool of dogshit and that is a fact you will never be able to denyI just don't concern myself with what others do. Only what I do. And I get plenty of social interaction if I feel like it, and I know you can if you want it as well.What Betty Fuckabup who just started does, I couldn't give two shits about, to be completely honest.
>>740012297>minigame as an argumentWhile I’ll admit ffxivs side activities like blue mage can be fun they are still fucking side activities.>>740012324>personal experience isn’t an argumentThis is completely and unequivocally true.
>>740012469>i don’t concern myself with others therefore the game is fineYou don’t have a point. You do not live in a bubble like you are preten
>>740012430Deep dungeon, anon.
>>740011678>join a guild of normies>one that doesn't have erp or modding channels in their discord>all social problems instantly solved>no trannies constantly shoved in your face unlike what /v/ shitposters would have you believeit's literally that easy
>>740012609I see, I assumed it meant Damage dealer. Oldfag acronyms I suppose
>>740012678Literally almost every guild in that game is a guild of normies trying to scavenge the starting cities for more new players to add to their clout. You don’t have a point.Normie guilds aren’t the good thing you think they are
>>740012513That seems like a personal problem you're having where you're going into a game and sequestering gameplay into different little boxes, labeling it a minigame to dismiss it, when the point of a game is having fun, and it doesn't matter what you're doing inside of the game to have fun. Especially in FFXIV where the character progression is at best/worst a ladder with 3 steps on it. Why would I care that doing "the minigame" isn't giving me top of the line gear so I can pretend to label it as "meaningful endgame". I might not have gotten a savage weapon from it, but I had ~5 or more hours of having fun while talking to people.I will say, I know DDs have a big solo community as well, but soloing them isn't nearly as fun to me.>>740012689My bad. I thought DD was well known among FF14 players as "deep dungeon".
>>740012776works on my machine. have you tried not having main character syndrome? it sounds like you start crawling up the walls if people in your vicinity dare to do something without you.
>>740012802It is objectively a side activity and it objectively ends sooner than later. Even if its fun to do its not actually worth doing when I think about other games that can offer me the same experience but better. It also doesn’t help that its nerfed to shit and I have to cope with the abominable shb job design.For the record I literally only sub to ffxiv to do field ops, blue mage and deep dungeon. I do not give a rats ass about savage raiding cancer. I still think the game is wholly incomplete and I wish the entire game was like field ops with HW job design.I cannot in good conscience refer to that game as an MMO or an RPG.
>>740012924>main character syndromeWhat does this have to do with anything I said and what does it even mean?
>>740012974>It is objectively a side activitySo? Genuinely, I struggle to see what's bad about this? Does it make it any less fun for me whether it's a side or main activity? Is my enjoyment no longer legitimate? Not trying to be rude, but I genuinely struggle to see why this should matter to me (or you).
who's ready for UMAD tomorrow?
>>740013153Ready for Ausex.. Axus... Auxesia tomorrow.
>>740012776the clout chasers are camping NN all day pretending it's their own personal blog and drowning out actual new players with their retarded drama and blogposting thoughFCs in my experience are just attention wastelands where people keep up the buffs and then do most of the chatting a discord server, mainly the retarded off-topic and animal pictures channels where they just talk into the void and doing barely any actual interaction between each-other. maybe they'll post an emoji reaction at most
>>740013241This is because you were the outsider in every single one. If you truly wish to and try you will find a group where you fit in and it feels like home.I found that, it took a while tho. I played mostly by myself for a few years wandering from fc to fc, server to server until I found one that clicked
>>740013153Ready for 2-3 weeks of DDoSing.
>>740013138Because I want to continue playing the game but I’m done with the field ops in a handful of days of heavy grinding.It also sucks that the reward for it is cosmetics at best. I do not see what is so hard to understand about this. I do not think its a sin for me to want the game to be better especially if you agree thats the only content in the game worth doing.The overworld should work like field ops and instances or at the very least dungeons should work like deep dungeon.I should be capable of main healing my party in a job like summoner or red mage as well even if less effective than an actual healer
>>740013334and this is why i dropped MMOsi just want to play the fucking videogame, i don't want to pay a sub fee to fucking play retarded mindgames and have the game get ball & chain'd to my ankle, because if i dare to take a break these people will throw me out without a second thought because (((inactivity)))this garbage is predatory as shit
>>740013412>we've gone from there's no socializing in the game to 'It's a side activity, so it doesn't count' to 'I just want the game to be better'
>>740013569Deep dungeon and Field ops arent the socializing places you think they are. You have to communicate in some instances and you generally encounter the same people but its still pretty antisocial.Everytime I add solo players to a party for pots in occult crescent they leave right after or just outright deny the invite all without saying a single word.
>>740013691im convinced the decliners are botsanother problem in the laundry list of problems plaguing the fucking game
>>740013691We've gone far past the bounds of the conversation and we're just touching on personal grievances here, not "are there ways to find and enjoy social interaction in contemporary MMOs".
>>740010718Yeah it’s called being a Redditor
>>740008056There are still positionals at least. TP is just gauge, dont be meme. "But tp you had to stop attacking" boring.>>740007316We have red mage and smn but people disliked them doing dps and healing. The people including the players of those classes /want/ them to be more binary into dps.It feels like you just dont get it.
>>740013948>There are still positionals at least.DRG is getting more in EC.
>>740007316"Party based progression" never existed the way you say.You could always solo grind up.Endgame is always in a party to get loot. From ragnarok to ff14.
>>740013767>>740013691No people decline in general because they have many reasons.In wow/14 ill even approach them (or kill them in wow) and they'll speak up lol.
>>740013848Nigger you do not understand what a meaningful interaction is because you never experienced what it was like back then. It wasn’t your fault unless you actually robbed yourself of the experience back then for some shallow idiotic reason.Forced socialization is necessary. Giving everyone the option to do things solo or letting them join in on something without having to actually communicate will always force antisocial interactions. This happens in deep dungeon and field ops too, people use these places mainly for exp farm or simply because its the only content available to them for doing because they aren’t interested in savage raiding and what some empty ass grind to do just to keep them playing the game.You can’t just say “be the change you want to be” to someone as an argument when we are talking about a collective and not a self. You’re just desperately moving the goalpost every fucking time.
>>740014031>poorfag thinks his shitty kmmo experience was the norm. Soloing in EQ was either a death sentence or the most tedious and unrewarding shit ever
>>740013948>smn>healing cannot be selected to be done when necessary only as a part of their rotation >red mage>has one single target healing spell I feel like you will never get it. You certainly sound like one of those dps brainrotted retards.
>>740014158You just kind of sound like you want to nanny people rather than make friends with them, sorry.I'm trying to be polite with you, but you're kind of a trying person.
>>740014031This is a lie of course, or a cherrypick in disguise. Most old MMOs had at least one or two jobs designed to be capable of solo but it was clearly not the majority. They also usually weren’t useful in group
>>740014285>keeps talking about “me”>as I keep trying to tell him I am not referring to myself in anything I write
>>740007316>You may not like it but wow is what ruined MMOs right from the beginning as classic wow is the progenitor of quest based progression and global cooldown combat.Blizzdrones ruined MMO because they would not play other games. It's like if Souls player only played From Software games, which they don't they play all good Soulslike, thus you have a striving genre unlike MMORPG which are now dead.
>i don't talk to anyone unless i absolutely have to>i don't even say "hi" when i zone into the dungeon>i skip elite quests without even asking if anyone wants to group up>if someone throw me an invite i'll accept but say nothing and be all business until i'm done, then i'll leave>i don't want to join a guild because it's pointless, the main clique has already solidified and i'll just be a tool for them>i cannot hide my power level and have no patience for anyone who isn't an exact copy of me. i hate everyone who is both more normal and more degenerate than me>now i am at the level cap and have no guild, no friends and thus no way to keep progressing. the game is effectively over for me.>how could this happen? why didn't the devs prevent this?
>>740014285>You can’t just say “be the change you want to be” to someone as an argument when we are talking about a collective and not a self. You’re just desperately moving the goalpost every fucking time.Did you even read?
>>740014452>You just kind of sound like you want to nanny peopleI did.
>>740014447>>how could this happen? why didn't the devs prevent this?that's literally what happened in retail because you can just queue a dungeon get a group and never have to talk to them, instead of being forced to engage and write with other people like in classic.
>>740014447Yes this is the grand majority of players in FFXIVI am glad you finally understand that. Hopefully you don’t continue making a boogeyman in your head about this
>>740014210>>740014339You dont need to lie. I played EQ as well.You can solo in dark age of Camelot, ro, eq and many other games. Maybe you are skill issued?
>>740014401I'm just not interested in indulging your fantasies of forcing everyone into the mold you like. That's the baseline. We do not agree, and we won't agree.We were 'tussling' over whether or not a newer MMO can provide social interaction, and I posited (with evidence) that it can. Beyond that, I don't intend to touch on your aspirations of enforcing some sort of web of required social interaction to be able to get out of a game's starting zone. Nor have you made me feel any reason to change that opinion.
>>740014546>xiv>elite questshuh?
>>740014492What does that have to do with wanting to nanny anyone?
>>740014274Yeah yeah you misplaying is my fault
>>740014556Yeah, you played them a decade after release when everything was made soloable to compensate for the lack of consistent new players
>>740014584No you are just a retarded narrow minded buffoon who quite literally encases himself in a bubble and blames any argument given to him about a collective as a “you” problem. Its fucking retarded. I hope you can someday recover from your schizophrenia
>>740014609Not them but what you said (minus that question type) applies to wow and 14 (other games too surely.
>>740014616You can't have people opt to not be social, you need everyone to be forced into your framework. Doesn't matter if there's plenty of content that encourages or provides an opportunity for social interaction. If that one level 10 running around doesn't require 4 other level 10s to prog his quests, it's all ruined for you and doesn't count.
>>740014651I played these games on content back in the day. You are just owned.
>>740014625>actually people want hybrid roles you just dont get it>thats why they like it that these two classes have completely unhelpful healing spells
>>740014768Yeah, sure. Which class did you play EQ, since you were soloing it back then?
>>740014712No, you just don't get that I don't subscribe to your world views, and you expect me to coddle you and tell you I'm in full agreement with everything you say. I'm not.I'm for people having the option to play an online social game whichever way they prefer, and I'm not going to pretend I agree with your 'my way or the highway' take on things with some cheap veneer of 'but the communal social cohesion, the greater whole' just because otherwise you'll get grumpy with me.
>>740010394how about>there's no such thing as perfect, something can have a single glaring flaw and still be a masterpiece
>>740014531You dont have to write a single word to other people in classic, there are addons that do it for youMoreover whispering "inv" isnt real communication
>>740014739Of course its ruined, it created a community where the majority simply wants to queue dungeons with npcs instead of actually grouping up. How do you not see this as a problem? What do you think killed FFXI?>well why don’t you just find people who want to group upDo you have any idea how retarded you sound saying shit like this about a game like this?
>Play City of Villains>Be Dominator>Not a healer, tank or desert>Entire job is crowd control>Can still deep throat 20 enemies with a single Hold that prevents them from ever attacking you while the ability kills them off>Or Mind Control a boss and have him clear the entire map for you.Mind Control and Fire Doms are my fave.
>>740014447remove the automatic dungeon/raid finder and force people to communicate. even while leveling. yeah i don't give a shit about lil timmy or luna or lilith who have 15380 alts for farming weekly lockout MOUNTSMOGSPETSCHEEVOS and their leveling is taking longer.make it very clear to the player: they will not be able to play the MULTIPLAYER GAME without interacting with other people.it's literally that easy. total lobbygame death.
>>740014913>, there are addons that do it for youmost people don't use them classic is more social that's a fact.
>>740014447The voluntary socialchad dabs on the virgin "buuh huuh why dont the devs forcefully put our hands together and tell us to get along" wallflower
>>740014991Ermm, excuse me, that wouldn't be respectful of my time you know.
>>740014991wtf you can't do that, i need to level 20 more alts before the next love is in the air event
>>740014861You will never understand because you think complete freedom is a good thing. You never liked old mmos cause they forced the interaction hampering down your pace but you like these new modern ones cause you can do everything on your own and selectively play the content you want with friends.If I hadn’t made friends back in the old mmo days I wouldn’t have any friends to play these new antisocial mmo experiences. Don’t even get me started with the aspect of teamwork. To someone like you simply playing the game next to someone counts as multiplayer. You do not care about the teamwork aspect of gameplay at all.
>>740014802Reviving is healing. Cope.>>740014823Necromancer next question
>>740014913>Moreover whispering "inv" isnt real communicationjokes on you we've degraded to the point we just type out a single "+"
>Why don't they just ruin the game for everyone who isn't me also they can't even think of adding an external shop to make up for lost money from people that would leave to play another game because i'll scream and leaveYeah, I really do wonder why they don't cater to you guys.
>>740014936Tbh I quit because people hack in 11
>>740014991>remove the automatic dungeon/raid finder and force people to communicate. even while leveling. yeah i don't give a shit about lil timmy or luna or lilith who have 15380 alts for farming weekly lockout MOUNTSMOGSPETSCHEEVOS and their leveling is taking longer.Never gonna happen because it's one of those QoL features people will never go back from. Some people MMOs entirely solo and jus enjoy seeing other players around them or having a functional AH. They don't really paly WITH others.
>>740015145>Scrub running necrolol. You aren't fooling anyone.
>>740015134>You will never understand because you think complete freedom is a good thing.Correct, and I'm tired of pretending it's not.>If I hadn’t made friends back in the old mmo days I wouldn’t have any friends to play these new antisocial mmo experiences.I've been able to make friends in MMOs for the 20+ years I've been playing them. Genuinely, without a hint of snark or 'gotcha' or whatever, you should try it.
>>740015145>wow look at this one whole utility spell you will only use during prog>let me not mention that vercure is a gcd and single target so red mage never wants to use it beyond getting a free dual cast in their opener
>>740007316Everquest is what ruined MMOs.
>>740015189>MMO hater is a cash shop defenderOh I am laffin
>>740014913I mean. Does communication for you mean "stop whatever you're doing and write me a paragraph of text" or something? Because GW2 is one of those MMORPGs I've never talked to anyone in, but I've also felt like there was an active player base because you're playing alongside people and accomplishing shit. Chatting is just part of the experience.
>>740014994L O LSure buddy
>>740014425Blizzardfags have ALWAYS been like this. They don't give a shit about ARPGs outside of Diablo, they don't give a shit about RTS outside of Starcraft or Warcraft.
>>740015278Complete freedom has always been a bad thing for videogames. Look at what the open world meme has done to videogames.
>>740015268Mad chud?>>740015281Ignoring vercure alone and focusing on revive.People hate that. Imagine if they had to offheal? Their dps will be even less.Idk anyone who loves hybrid shit like that.The only real argument is having healer damage options being a bit more involved than glarespam.
>>740015363>"MMO hater" plays more MMOs than supposed MMO lover who spends his days wistfully thinking about his ideal MMO that doesn't exist and/or melting down that companies don't want to operate at a loss to give him his ideal MMO where others exist just to serve his ends.
>>740014991genre was at its best when it was made for no life kings. as with everything else, introduction of casuals brought the money, but corrupted the soul.
>>740015423>coping retoilet playerShould I tell you how m+ go? Nobody even says hello if I don't do it first even at +14 or higher keys.>>740015426please don't remind me Blizzcucks killed off the RTS genre.
>>740015278Nigga you don’t actually socially interact you just play the entire game by yourself then go “well ackschually I socially interracted in this deep dungeon”. Its fucking insane how dishonest you are in your argumenting
>lf4m DM /w me>invOMG SO SOVL
>>740015480>dps brainrot the post
>>740015483>MMO hater thinks his lobby game is an MMOLaffin still
>>740015445No it hasn't. The genre was at its best with UO and SWG where you had complete freedom. Someone using open world as an excuse to never do any design work is not the same thing as open world bad.
>>740015501>Nigga you don’t actually socially interactI literally do, thoughbeit.>Its fucking insane how dishonest you are in your argumentingAnd yet I've interacted more with people in a game in a few days than you have in the last 5 months.I don't know, looks to me like you're sweating way too much over inconsequential details and depriving yourself of the fun you claim to want.
>>740015501What about raids? You interact with tons of people in both 14 and wow. Usually in discord calls. Sometimes in chat.
>>740015240>mfw players freaked out that crafters and traders held too much in SWG
>>740015240You can literally just do things. Just don't add singleplayer features into the MMO. People who want single player will cry and seethe and shit their pants while people who want multiplayer are having a blast.
>>740015563Actually it is. Thats why you can’t actually describe any of the design in the games you defend
>>74001554099.9% of the playerbase supports this.You sub .00001% of players whine about wanting to be unoptimal.Again, a diff.
>>740015494What exactly do I need to say hello for?I will ask about lust timings if it matters or if groups are split on how they do it, which is more strategy talk than anything in vanilla
>>740015609Fucking don't remind me. THAT'S HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE IN A LIVING ECONOMY YOU RETARDED ASS FAGGOTS.
>>740015645What the fuck are you talking about?
>>740015609Because they did, but that was part of the package. SWG actually had a real economy. What people ACTUALLY didn't like was that everything was temporary because of degradation. They vented their anger towards crafters and traders because you couldn't just buy replacement at NPC shops beyond the most basic vendor trash.
>>740015657>What exactly do I need to say hello for?Did your parents don't teach you any manners? My god.
>>740015561>No, you know a REAL MMO lover doesn't play MMOs or really any games. Just seethes on an imageboard day after day for years, while MMO haters play the MMOsthe distilled essence of /v/ in a nutshell
>>740015653Incorrect. Raidfags, the 1% of the game, are the ones that want this. Xenosys and his ilk ruined the entire game for everyone and now Yoshida is trying to salvage it, unfortunately to no avail as far as we’ve seen so far.
>>740015561To be honest, I'd rather play those lobby games than EQ or classic WoW or FFXI.
>>740007316>>modern MMOnone of the currently played MMO's came out in the last 10 years
>>740015747Look at unc acting old school in 2026 LMAO blud
>>740015809Nobody wants shitty hybrids griefing theie groupHybrids arent real and have never been real
>>740015809Over 60% of the playerbase raids.Also if you are part of the group that doesnt raid, you are basically doing what.. fate farming? Shut up man lmao
Why did MMORPGs because these shitty pseudo single-player games anyway? Every fucking MMO I try nowadays is nothing but watching shitty cutscenes, with shitty dialogue and camerawork all in service of a garbage story. Can't even grind for levels anymore, since the story quests give you so much exp and mobs/side-quests give absolutely fucking nothing.
>>740014158I experienced what it was like BEFORE the games you point to, actually. UO was extremely solo friendly. That's the point of the game. You could do what you wanted to, IF you could do it. You spent a lot of time macroing on your own.
>>740015875Good thing OP was specifically referring to classic wow as the progenitor of modern mmosARR came out 13 years ago, so I’d say thats close enough to your “standard”
>>740015993
>>740015993>Savage raids and FATEs are the only two activities in the game
>>740014158Just join people on discord.
>>740015770But you aren't playing any MMOs. Unless you're stupid enough to think that some lobby game where you queue for content from a menu or watch cutscenes for hours is an MMO.
>>740016117>b-but it doesn't count. I, the guy not playing an MMOs at all and just melting down at 'modern' MMOs for existing, am the REAL MMO loverCrazy story, Jim.
>>740016117I've played MMOs longer than you've been alive. If my choice was between Grind Levels For 2 Years Simulator and a modern lobby game I'd pick the latter every time, because at least the lobby game is actually fucking fun when I'm doing something in it instead of soulcrushing garbage.
>>740016090Google is free.>>740016095What do you think a casual who doesnt even raid does? Spams the same 5 dungeons? Island? Deep dungeon which you solo anyway? Space exploration? Hunt trains?Wanting hybrid classes in these examples is so weird to me. "I need to dps and offbeat in solo content nowwww!"
>>740016102What if I don't want to join some gay clique circlejerk and just want talk to someone 1 on 1 like a normal person?
>>740015987If yoshida announced that red mage was getting vermedica in the keynote I am 100% certain everyone would cheer very loudly.If yoshida announced AST was getting its old card system back with damage up, defense up, crit up, dhit up, cooldown reduction and mp refresh people would 100% explode in cheers on fanfest.If he announced summoners physick was being changed to actually work and they could pick between phoenix and bahamut people would also explode in cheer
>>740007316MMOs have ALWAYS sucked. The only reason people played them is because they were novel at the time, provided a social multiplayer experience, and there were a lot fewer expectations for vidya
>>740007707I can't even tell if it's all an act or not at this point. Childhood is fucking horrible the more I look back.
>>740016254You can still do this on discord.Most people are in group calls or doing something with friends already.Most the declines are because they are queued for something, with others and so on.You are asocial and alone and other people arent. Discord removed the desire to find a random.
>>740008056Final Fantasy XI players stopped using Thief in virtually all content as anything other than a Treasure Hunter bot within the first year of service. They also stopped using Magic Bursts, Skillchains and virtually every other intended mechanic the very second that they realized they could just buff the living shit out of a bunch of well geared damage dealing jobs and have them mash out as many Weapon Skills as possible in the duration of Soul Voice.I spent so many hours with retarded Japanese players fighting Sky Gods/Kirin with their "traditional" mechanics, then when I joined a proper group of autismos, we were clearing the same fights in like 45 seconds. FFXI was a mechanical disaster of a game, but it was also the purest form of a truly cooperative online game from 2004-2007. The vast majority of the world had true purpose for players to travel between and the nature of competitive exp camps and enemies that could actually reasonably murder you while traveling gave the experience a true sense of adventure.The game was never built to last though, things like the enmity formula/cap weren't ever built to scale in the same way that damage did.
>>740016235>actually fucking fun when I'm doing something in it instead of soulcrushing garbage.uhhh filtered?lol FILTERED much?if you were a REAL mmo player you'd know we don't have fun, and 'soulcrushing garbage'? More like SOVL?
>>740016246I googled and you’re lying. Lucky bancho numbers state about 20% raid and thats without even considering how many people actually bought those achievements. Even less clear ultimate, about 1%.Did you clear the only actual savage raid FFXIV had? Delubrum Reginae?
>>740016174>>740016235That's nice and all, but they aren't MMOs. No idea why you fags are so desperate to label every persistent multiplayer game as an MMO. Even the PSO devs, which practically every supposed modern "MMO" is modelled after, doesn't consider that to be an MMO.
>>740016383>That's nice and all, but they aren't MMOs.I dunno, I just googled these 'new gen' MMOs, and they're all classified as MMORPGs.
Play her game, /v/
>>740007316I haven't played WoW since BFA but I remember there being lots of variation in mechanics, targeting, and rotations in Mythic raiding. FFXIV by comparison is exactly what you described.
>>740016369>45 secondsAt least be less dishonest about it man. Not saying you’re completely wrong but a lot of your post is complete hyperbole and you might make someone think your only experience with XI was post abyssea.
>>740007707Thank you for blessing us with your amazing insight my good sir/tips
>>740016440By google. Who gives a fuck about google's worthless classifications. And if it isn't google then it's by your fellow retards, who think a game like Destiny is an MMO.
>>740016380I dont read japanese sorry. My sources say 60%.
>>740016670>Who gives a fuck about google's worthless classifications.Well, who gives a fuck about yours albeit?
>>740016780>I will feign ignorance and continue spewing bullshit out of my ass
>>740016445No, I hated FFXI on release.
>>740016867You must be one of the shitposters in this thread
>>740010602ARR was the removal of any hope that FFXIV was ever going to be anything other than just another casual MMO for WoW babies.
>>740016848I dunno, I'm just trying to inform you retards that your lobby games aren't MMOs. You can't design your game to be like other games that specifically said that they weren't MMOs and never advertised themselves as MMOs, but still call your game an MMO. It is pure retardation.
>>740016852Just link the english picture that we both can read instead of "um you meant ultimate".Also looking forward to you including level 1 characters or characters not logged in for 5 years.
>>740017030Yeah but nobody really cares about what *you* consider an MMO.See, I don't consider you human, yet I doubt you care that I don't.Similarly, nobody here cares that you don't consider this or that MMO not a real MMO. The world moves on: you are not special.
>>740017040Im pretty sure I gave you the numbers of both ultimate and regular raiding>Also looking forward to you including level 1 characters or characters not logged in for 5 years.Not sure what gotcha you think this is as it is impossible for characters of those levels to enter the latest raids
>FFXIV is an MMO.>Has zone limits meaning there's never any more than maybe 60 on the screen at any given time.>All content is locked to less players than a CoD match.>Vast majority of content is 4-man.Yeah bro, I play MMOs, I play battlefield.
>>7400169271.0 was complete, unmitigated garbage and you need to cope stat.
>>740017030Actually those games map very closely to how the very first MMO to ever exist, Neverwinter Nights, was designed.
>>740017223Does whatever source you use include lvl 1 and nonplaying in its %?
>>740017251The problem is less the amount of players content is locked to and moreso the fact that all of it is instancedField ops helps a bit with this but again..optional side activity you get nothing but a shiny cosmetic from
>>740017086You're right, I don't care. Still, I'm not the one who started seething when I pointed that mmo haters don't actually play mmos.
>>740017371No you fucking retard. Lucky bancho filters by people who have the clear achievement. Keyword “have”. Its not even an accurate assessment of how many people actually raid but it is an assessment of how many people cleared. Which means even 20% is a generous metric for your shitty argument
>>740016383I've been playing PSO on Ephinea recently and it's really just a multiplayer gambling simulator. A remake with QoL would probably massively appeal to gachafags more than MMOfags.
>>740017312Maybe, but that doesn't automatically make ARR better.
>>740017357No it isn't. Not even that old ass game was instanced.
>>740017446So it does include level 1s and inactive accounts.Okay then ur shit is useless
>>740017312It was unfinished. I don’t expect people who got their info from youtubers and game journalists to understand why it had potential.
>>740017312Absolutely.But it was still more fun than running from NPC to NPC watching them do canned emotes (Not even custom animations) and spew some melodrama about bullshit that goes nowhere.
>>740017576>i am willfully being an ignorant retard reading whatever it is I want to read instead of what is actually written
>>740017412Oh boy, the "you are seething because you are telling me off" retort.Things are really dire, huh
>>74001764920% have it. 80% which includes every character including level 1s etc dont.Simple.
>>740017545Yes it was? Combat was instanced away, other people had the option to join but that's about it. Did you think I was talking about Bioware's NWN?
>>740017463PSO and GW1 are great games I agree. I would much rather devs stop making these faux-MMOs, as if being an MMO is some badge of honour, and just make fun and good looking lobby games with good character customisation and snappy gameplay.
>>740017683But you are. You're also a disgusting retard who defends cash shops.
I played FFXIV since Leviathan released in ARR, continued playing it to Dawntrail yet cut my sub off last year as the story just sucked and that was the last thing keeping me playing.Got big into raiding in HW but never continued to join groups for it in Stormblood because it felt like such a waste of time, why bother grinding for gear again and again every 3 - 4 months if its all gonna get replaced again.The exploration felt hollow and the gameplay was pretty much just Simon Says Extreme Edition.The social aspects of it felt hollow and any friends I made from XIV only care about that game so they are really boring to talk to otherwise.The game just isn't fun for someone like me, maybe I am not the intended audience but I am enjoying playing classic wow.Also most of the people in XIV were troons so thats something.
>>740017590>1.0>potentialKEEEEEEEEEEK
In the end people mad about current mmos--Aren't doing end game content (want hybrids)Refuse to use communication methods everyone else uses (discord)Refuse to join guilds/groups of people.
>>740017782They'd see you fighting and could join specifically because the game wasn't instanced, combat was just private, since it was turn-based. That's entirely different from running around in the lobby and having to party up with people before doing a quest.
>>740018019Actually I wish they'd stop putting me through shit content.
>>740017784Aren't most modern MMOs lobby games now anyway? I know FF14 is and I assume WoW is still similar with M+ and raids. In the end, PSO won. Well, moreso Diablo won but PSO was Diablo lite instead of Everquest lite like other games at the time were.
>>740018019>you should join a discord server so you can repeatedly complete the same small instanced dungeons with 3-10 people or soTell me again why I should play your MMO instead of a multiplayer game with better more fun gameplay and design.MMOs can get away with mediocre gameplay because the massively multiplayerness and emergent player meetings is what makes them stand out from every other genre.
>>740018019>Aren't doing end game contentThey're worthless, repetitive boss fights. Not to mention the loot is worthless come next patch.>Refuse to use communication methods everyone else usesI want to keep my video game interactions in the video game. I also didn't have to worry about some fag pestering me on teamspeak/vent.>Refuse to join guilds/groups of people.To do what? The same shit I can do with a random group of silent nobodies or NPCs. Or maybe some worthless side activities that contributes nothing to my character?
>>740007707>dungeon finder>phasing>multiserver>dailys>time gating>fomo>cash shops>rainbowsthis is what ruined mmo's for me, it's not on me, it's purely on them
>>740016509Not my fault your linkshell sucked. We cleared Kirin in 37 seconds at our fastest, then we went to Whitegate, swapped to lv1 COR to reset 2 hours and did it again. The COR+BRD 2hr combo and a couple of Kraken/Octave clubs legitimately made those fights evaporate.
>>740017901I know you're brown, but that wasn't meant to be a defense of cash shops.Just that you can't expect a video game dev to make a really niche type of MMORPG that costs them an absurd amount of money that gets them very little in return, and then they can't even get some recompense out of it with cosmetic shop bullshit.Like why would someone voluntarily make an MMO that complies with your arbitrary prerequisites for approval when it's just a lose/lose/lose situation for them? Give them an incentive.
>>740018118They basically are, except they have all the negatives of an MMO. So story quests are running around large, barren, ugly zones to watch /emote cutscenes. The combat feels like shit (outside of WoW), it's all CD based with very little resource management and they're all ugly with low poly gear.
>>740018019Yeah, all they really want is the game to grab their hand, and another player's hand, and tell them "YOU MUST BE NICE TO EACH OTHER NOW".Anything else, and they'll turn into grumpy wallflowers resentfully looking at others having fun.A lot of the classic MMO lovers lampoon new MMO players for playing "lobby games" or doing content and just going "o/" and "ggty"But a lot of this classic MMO interaction they exalt was practically on the same level.>lfm [content]>inv>hi>gg tyfp
>>740018439You’re essentially defending a coporation and not devs who do passion projects
>>740018563>doesn’t tell you about the discord voip he joined in the background
>>740018606>and not devs who do passion projectsSo where are these devs doing passion projects? Surely, if they were there making classic MMOs, you wouldn't be here, clearly discontent.
>>740018439No need for the self-hate, I know paying a sub would drain your wallet. But not every MMO has to be a 50000km world with 2,000 quests, 500 raids, 10000000 collectible garbage, etc.
>>740018720They don’t exist anymore or have been bought out by corporations . I don’t have to be happy about current events to discuss them anon, much less call you out for defending it
>>740018752>fails to engage with the core of the postFor being the supposed 'intellectually superior' class of video game player, I sure don't see it.Maybe the problem is that those renowned smarts crash against the wall of narcissism.
>>740018836I answered your question, how are you this stupid? Don't make a fuck huge MMO whose sole goal is to compete with the top dogs. Make something smaller, with a reasonable budget to the point where you don't have to nickel and dime players.
>>740018836None of what you said applies to the post you replied to. He essentially answered your question normally. Your post reeks of projection.
>>740019012>>740019128You suck and your opinions suck.I'm trans and Indian btw.
MMORPGs had smart and insightful players.Nowdays is lowlife dumb thurd worldler.
>>740018807>They don’t exist anymoreThat is strange.But it's a passion project, and people can just make these things for a super tiny and niche group of people without
>>740019456I know you’re being dishonest but thats only true if they had money. We already know most of these companies are a farcry from what they original were in terms of employees. We even have accounts of some people from SE stating how the company changed once a certain someone left.20-25 years ago most projects were indeed made by passionate people, today it is clearly that has changed
Honestly, after this thread I wonder why anyone should want to make a more oldschool MMO.>it's a net financial loss since the enthusiasts are a tiny atomized fraction of the whole>you're trying to develop for proudly disloyal transients that will put a knife in your back at the slightest inclination>the group you're developing for isn't particularly nice, charming or smart and feel entitled to everything while providing nothingI can't think of a single benefit or incentive to putting in hard work and money into making and actively developing a game like this, and the people who claim to dearly want it don't seem interested in doing it themselves. They just expect it to spring up out of nowhere because they feel like they deserve it.
>>740019768That is because you're a subservient dog that eats whatever a developer shits out on your plate.
>>740019967You've got all this energy.You should use it to create an MMO.
Play Realm of the Mad God, the ultimate non-singleplayer MMO.New season starts tomorrow.USEast or EUWest.
>>740018545It honestly sucks because in those nu MMO lobbies, you have loot lockouts so you can do your runs once a week and that's it as opposed to ARPGs being about spamming runs.
>>740020280Seems like I hit the nail on the head.
LotRO is still pretty oldschool.
If you think about it, if you want socialization, you would likely have a lot more luck in an almost dead MMO than the big popular onesThey are far more populous yet the people inside are far less likely to talk in the game; as they find no need for it
>>740020709They have to keep you coming back. If you could just no life the game in 1 week, well then the chances of you potentially spending money in the cash shop greatly decreases.
>>740021062that's truth in that. Thats the premise of all those "I spent 2 weeks in a dead MMO" videosThe people that play those games will suck your dick so that they arent alone
>>740021157Has nothing to do with the cash shop, the most grindy games also have the most blatant cash shopsIts because no life NEETs scare casual players away
>>740018307Rpg mechanics (grind/long term farming) and larger scale "complex" fights. You may argue its not hard but for many people it is. Ig ego boost if ur good at it.Large scale pvp if it has it.>>740018310Not really but functionally you may simplify it to similar hitboxes? There are definitely varied mechs.I think ur just behind the times ngl.Yeah idk what you want from an mmo if you dont want to participate in hanging out with others. Just 1 on 1 huh lol>>740018563Yeah it was always similar. The ease of content via discord etc just moved it to that more than locally in game. Its better for me cus now I can be verbal and full hands on game.
>>740021419>Yeah idk what you want from an mmo if you dont want to participate in hanging out with others. Just 1 on 1 huh lolI like to hang out with others whilst adventuring, not stand in the main city yapping in discord all day or raging during prog. That can come after we've played together for dozens of hours and have become friends outside of the game.I see no reason to go out of my way to talk to people when there is zero benefit from doing so. Which is what I liked about old MMOs, you either stopped being an anti-social loner or progress at a snail's pace, if at all.
>>740021419>Yeah idk what you want from an mmo if you dont want to participate in hanging out with others.He wants to nanny people and force them to play how he wants them to play.
I've been in an MMO slump lately and feeling it's a bit of what first post is saying on top of just not having friends anymore to get lost into games with. Is there any modern MMOs or active MMOs where people can have specialized roles people can fit for like community stuff? One of my fonder MMO memories was /v/ playing Wurm Online about a decade ago and someone was a horse breeder, another made food and ran a bar, some guy was a carpenter and made arrows, stuff like that, compared to modern day where everyone can do anything because of power of wallet and chosen one syndrome. I wanna be like the potion maker or something and build a reputation up for it, like old school SWG used to have with crafters and stuff.Anyway to get that these days without going to some private server or something for an older game?
>>740021419FFXIV and WoW do not have rpg mechanics. This is just dishonesty at its finest
>>740021693Adventure with others while in discord, not in town.I still dont recall needing to explore (we had game faqs and other places back then anyway) in parties. Again almost all games soloable tbqhwy. You should probably just play like outerwilds or dragons dogma or something.>>740021948>wow and 14 have no levels or equipmentYeah..
Just wait for Classic+, probably in '27 or '28. Nothing else will even remotely scratch the itch anymore.
>>740021367I don't mean cash shops to skip the grind, I meant the whole "I've put 500hrs into this game, buying gear set from the cash shop isn't a big deal" mentality, that is what they want to foster.I also never understood why they started all the weekly/daily lockout trash, when would casuals ever be around no-lifers, especially with the extinction of world pvp.
>>740021992>>wow and 14 have no levels or equipmentcorrect they dont because those things do nothing except gate you from content. Do you even know what rpg mechanics are? You don’t considering how facetious your answer is.
>>740022006>wait for more braindead slopNo thanks
>>740021992There is no adventuring in modern mmos you retard. You just join a party and queue for content, don't even have to make your way to the dungeon entrance. Don't know why I'm trying to be reasonable with a meta-gaming tranny.
>>740014447>i hate everyone who is both more normal and more degenerate than meI don't know why but I laughed at this in particular.
>>740022098Rpg mechanics are just ilvl stuff.Also it has story.>>740022187Name the adventure in old mmos.We know the maps already in old mmos and we knew them back then too."Its good to fly or even walk and take 15 minutes to enter a dungeon"Respect your time more. That blows ass.
>>740022054Again thats retarded, the grindy games also take way longer to max out. People playing 16 hours a day on mapelstory for 2 years to hit max level and shit>when would casuals ever be around no-lifersLiterally any time they want to join a group or guild and some guy is 2x stronger than them because hes a NEET playing all dayAnd instanced pvp doesnt somehow make this issue any better
I think the problem is the bloat.If you'll start playing an MMO right now, you'll be hit by 300000 different shit.Like Warframe, for example, I tried to get into it and now there's 100000 different things that I absolutely need to do in order to get a particular ingredient/material I need and to do that I have to unlock 3 other different sections and then go halfway through a side quest/mini-campaign so THEN I can start grinding, and THEN I need to repeat that in different sections that I don't even like (open world BS) so THEN I can go grind even more.Nothing is streamlined anymore, it's just bloat, bloat, bloat.
>>740022304Ilvl and story are not rpg mechanics
>>740022304Again, you're a meta-gaming tranny. The idea of simply exploring the world is foreign to you, you'll never understand it.
A big new MMO would be the best, as everyone would be on an equal footing. but none of them manage to really work wellWho could manage to do that?
>>740022539Exploring the world has to actually be fun and rewarding, not pointlessly time consuming for profit.
>>740022413I don't dabble in korean gacha games, so I'll take your word on it. But who the hell complains about getting carried in group content, especially if they're a casual?
>>740022506Erm yes they are>>740022539Yeah explore the uhhh known environment.... very mysterious 50 boar spawns.
>>740022629>But who the hell complains about getting carried in group contentMe. Struggling and figuring out strategies to overcome is the point.
>>740022459The problem you are describing is vertical progression. FFXIV everytime a new expansion hits raises the level cap, to the point where nothing actually new gets added by the level cap so why raise it at all? Just make new content while keeping the same level cap.If you compare to old XI everytime a new expansion released outside of the first the level cap stayed the same and the new content was built around a variety of level ranges or in some cases for level capped players. When promathia released for example, its story missions unlocked at level 30 but finishing all the cop missions unlocked level 75 content. It also added new areas and gear that are essentially side grades to the old.
>>740022629If I play a game for the first time, unless I'm grinding, I usually like to play the game.
>>740022614>I still dont recall needing to explore (we had game faqs and other places back then anyway) in parties.Once again, you are a meta-tranny, you will never understand the sense of progression one gets from naturally exploring a world and discovering it's contents. Just stick to metagaming and be content, the curiosity of man is well beyond your understanding.
>>740007316>reacting to what is happeninglol, old mmos were almost entirely auto attack spam even from bosses.
>>740022823Exploring has to have an actual point.
>>740022673>>740022775Well then you should find like minded players. Not group up with a dude who has insane gear that puts people 5 levels higher to shame. Every time I've carried the only messages I got were "ty for the carry".
>>740022823Okay so like you pick up a quest and get lost? You look at every tiny tent to see if there are blueberries growing near it? Genuinely what do you mean.
>>740022934Like I said, it's well beyond you.
>>740022629>carriedOr you know, not invited because they invite the guy twice as strong instead? Retard???
>>740023010NTA but I do this.In modern MMOs.
>>740023056Pictured is you genuinely."Um I have to jump off the dock and swim into the water where nothing is. I just have to ok!!"
>>740023056It's not though. I reject your idiotic idea that I'm supposed to be wasting my time doing something pointless.
>>740023060Host your own party. >>740023110Ig thats fun to some people but maybe its like a dad gamer thing..?
>>740022006Blizzard classic plus will be shit>phasing megaservers>bots and goldsellers>wow token>chatgpt GMs and 0 customer service>15 a month for the same game for a third/fourth time for a year while you wait for the plus part>retail mechanics in new content anyway as blizzard proved they dont know what the fuck vanilla even is with SoD
>>740023010No, you just pick a direction and explore. Old MMOs weren't instanced, nor did they have all the content in a menu for you to find. So could stumble upon a dungeon, and if it was too high level, you could mark it down and come back later. Or you could find spawn points for alchemical reagents/mining spots, a group of mobs to farm, etc. Or you might make your way to a new city, since the game doesn't guide you to every major city like nu-mmos.
>>740023314>Allakhazam
>>740016369>as anything other than a Treasure Hunter botbut you still needed us, didn't you
>>740023314This didnt happen at all what are you talking about.The anon who said you were a kid and didnt know anything (not an insult, you were just like 8 man) was right ig.
>>740023118Did you even think for two seconds before typing out that nonsensical reply? >>740023139It quite literally is. The only way to know if something is waste of time is to either experience it yourself or be told by someone else. And you've already admitted to be a faq browsing meta-tranny who didn't need to explore.
>>740023519What are you even trying to explore then? Just open up a map. You dont "stumble upon" cities like other anon said.
>Kino fights with fun mechanics, with a good combat system to boot>Stuck in a korean skinner box with RNG progressionI will never get over how LA can be so good while being so fucking bad. It's a paradox unto itself. It might finally die at the end of the year, but goddamit, I'll keep playing until it happens.
just play ddo
>>740023364Once again, you are meta-tranny.>>740023516That quite literally did happen. I played EQ on launch when I was in college. For some reason you meta-trannies assume that everyone else is a meta-tranny. It is quite telling how the simple act of exploring for the sake of exploring is such a foreign concept to nu-mmo sissies.
>>740007316MMOs were always bad content delivered slowly. They were destined to die once social media gutted them of their social aspects.
Why yes, I do like to push my healer to the edge of sanity. How could you tell?
>>740023691>exploring for the sake of exploring“Alright I discovered the entire map”“What did you find”“Areas that will have content in them later, maybe”
>>740023691You are mentally retarded. Its over. "Opening a map is tranny!!!"Oh my goood
The notion that someone thinks that a “story” and an incrementing number designed as a level with zero itemzation or stat optimization beyond get that 2% gain in dps by optimizing your substats in your max ilvl gear is “rpg” mechanics is astounding.We’re talking about a game with:>no elemental weaknesses>no diverging stats, the only stat you care about is main stat and gear is completely streamlined towards this, even if a lower level gear gets better substats the higher level gear is still better simply because damage number go up>no debuffs>no actual buffs>healing is completely based on a pattern>healers goal is to deal as much damage possible and heal as little as possible>no aggro managementIt amuses me that this fag would call anyone else a contrarian.
>>740023579Again, you nu-mmo sissies are so brain rotted, it's almost sad. Everquest didn't have an in-game map for years. The best you could do was using someone hand drawn map, which did not exist on launch
>>740023837Riiiight. Anyway it sounds like u just want day 1 launch everquest and that sucks.Mmos didnt do that and websites had the content. Youre just a dadgamer playing in mud in the level 1 zone for 20 hours.
>>740023779Yes, you are a meta-tranny. Using external info hubs for an advantage is common meta-tranny characteristic.
>>740015746>degredationCould the crafters repair the stuff or no?
>>740023837Everquest is dead, Everquest 2 lost, Everquest next canceled. WoW won and is what people clearly want.
>>740023834Almost all of your post is completely wrong.The element thing would be nice but other than that its present.
>>740023950"Meta tranny" is when you just go to the next area and arent a completely lost player.I bet modern mmo dungeons are too hard also. You likely just do follower dungeons. Why am I even talking to you lol
>>740023919EQ didn't get an in-game map until 4yrs after launch, tranny. And dad gamers are exactly who nu-mmos are made for you retard. >Mmos didnt do that and websites had the content.Just can't help yourself, can you meta-tranny.
>>740007707No it's absolutely because of post-WoW design decisions. The genre is completely different with a completely different focus. You're underaged.
>>740023195>Ig thats fun to some people but maybe its like a dad gamer thing..?It's a visual immersion thing. I like when a game can sell the 'spectacle' of a fantastical place. Something I can't just go out and see in real life.
>>740024108Why didn’t the better MMOs survive the inferior design choices of WoW?
>>740007707Wrong. I played XI for the first time this year and was thoroughly enjoying it, despite being an aged unc. New mmos just suck ass.
>>740023602>last ack
>>740024147Because better video games filter out normalfags. MMOs started being made for third world retards and women, so naturally more people and more money flooded in. Dungeon finders, for example, are completely antithetical to the intended purpose of MMOs. But antisocial faggots like (You) love them.
>>740024184So did you get through to endgame or was it a novel experience you put a few hours into?
>>740023973Okay, and? Most people are shitters, that is common knowledge. Sad attempt at a gotcha in lieu of an actual retort.>>740024059Yes, meta-trannies can't just play the game, they must optimise every second to ensure they are always being as efficient as possible.
>>740024250So what you really want is Facebook but with the worst gameplay known to man.
does wow have a sphene
>>740024316No, what I really want is a large scale adventure game where interacting with other adventurers is a core part of the gameplay. Which is what MMOs were before WoW raped everything. You do not like MMOs, you don't even know what an MMO actually is.
>>740024281Maybe old MMOs should have fewer garbage player traps in character progression.
>>740024261I played with some friends, got nin/thf/sam to 99. We did most of the content that you could trio. I don't remember the names of all the content, because level 99 threw so much of it at us at once, but we did a lot. They had played at release when the cap was 75, so mostly everything was new to them as well.
>>740024327Sphene sucks.
>>740024412Nobody likes MMOs, that’s why they died.
MMOs and their players have changed. Its not one or the other. There are very few mmos on the market that>Have dangerous worlds where pulling 2-3 enemies will kill you>Have no fast travel>Require grouping to levelBut theres also fewer people interested in the old core concepts because>Theres way more online genres to fill specific niches>People have more options for their free time and new avenues to socialize (discord)>The concept is no longer fresh
>>740024474Explain how I'm playing FFXI right now?
>>740024281>they must optimise every second to ensure they are always being as efficient as possible.Even the older mmos encouraged this though, especially the ones with non-instanced contested content. If the rare week respawn boss appears with prized loot the faster and more efficient party is more likely to both kill it and do it faster.
>>740024468Sphene is great, fag.
>>740024316No you retard what he wants is a multiplayer game that relies on people actually communicating.Modern gaming and the habits of most players in general are fucking insane - League for instance is so popular but not only is there not voice chat but the fucking text chat is used to flame more than call shots at all.People are afraid to talk to each other, and now games are built around people being strangers sitting like cars in traffic. No face to know, someone who can only exist as a facsimile of a human who is perfectly viable to scream at as if they're not a living creature, just like those cars surrounding you that are all stuck just like you in the machine that doesn't convince us to be people.
>>740023691I played EQ on launch and thought it was rancid dogshit.
>>740024510Because just because an MMO dies doesn’t mean there’s not a couple thousand people still devoted to their favorite memories.
>>740024413>Having at least 100 IQ is a player trapThe hate, confusion and ignorance makes sense now.
>>740024327It has Alleria.
>>740024510Shit taste.
>>740015381Simply being in a party or next to someone doing a shared objective with someone else is not socializing
>>740024598>don’t optimize>but also know what the impact of every single skill node to avoid gimping yourself forever
>>740024581Explain all the new characters I'm seeing run around Windurst on Phoenix after Bahamut, Asura, and Odin were all closed due to having too many players?
>>740023691Exploring for the sake of exploring is a worthless timewaster. Learn about player taxonomies, retard.
>>740024598>completely ignores how abilities and skills often don't work how you expect or how it is worded.
>>740024501Freshness or novelty is a weak but natural pursuit, still you will find many players of these older games passionately glued to them because the core conceits are compelling - not just because of nostalgia or whatever. The issue like with most things business is that expanding the products to outside the realms of those truly interested in what it was to try to grab new people who aren't as interested is inevitably going to water it down.Wider accessibility tends to reduce the depth of a product. Anyone can read a children's book.If companies were happy and stayed at the scale of selling to just a few thousand, their products wouldn't have to change and those consumers would get more of what they truly like but you really only can get that in the indie sphere due to no investors
>>740023973>Everquest is dead, Everquest 2 lost, Everquest next canceled.We're on Everquest Legends now lil gup.
>>740021992XIV has levels but they removed stat allocation. Each job has fixed gear for its job with fixed stats. There are no "builds" in XIV at all. 99% of the time you just get something higher ilvl and thats it.
>>740008420The only MMO that wasn't like that was Ultima Online because it was a sandbox without any of the raiding or nolifer shit.
>>740024675Do YOU believe your old MMO is on the uptick?
>>740024530No it didn't, most old mmos didn't have that shit. Most rare mobs just had a extremely low chance to spawn that was on a timer. So you'd have a rare bomb that has 1% chance to spawn in a specific location every 5hrs or so. WoW is not representative of old mmos.
>>740024778I don't believe, I know. Phoenix used to have like 1500 people on at peak hours, now it's flooded.
>>740024547If you make a game difficult to the point where you need to strategize for even casual content it'll just be dead. This is a people problem, not just a dev problem. The devs give people what they wanted. Only boomers want the olden days back, but devs know its just not economical to cater to them.
>>740024794Spawns absolutely had set timers you retard
>>740024794Yes it did, there's a reason killstealing was such a thing in older mmos. Whoever tags and kills it/does the most damage first gets the loot, and this applied to big bosses too, the equivalent of raids.
>>740024643In early wow you didn't need to optimize. The secret is that it's an easier game if you just do the mechanics of the fights. Any old dogshit class setup can manage as long as they very vaguely have a team comp that makes sense. (A prot warrior with a shield, a dedicated healer, dps classes etc)Modern classic speed running concepts aren't required to actually just do the content. In even more retro mmos you just need to do reading. Choices aren't traps, they're choices. Choices are what makes games interesting and what defines your identity
>>740023998The element thing is not fucking present you liar.The games “main stats” dictate your largest damage increase theres no reason to raise anything other than the main stat that applies to you. No matter what the substats are, even if you’re losing a large crit increase, raising your main stat and weapon damage (aka higher ilvl) is always a bigger dps increase than actually optimizing your substats. Gear optimization at the highest ilvl means optimizing your substats, which accounts for about a 2%-5% dps increase vs just using all the tome gear.The reason why that anon says >no actual buffsIs because of how they were butchered and turned into tiny 5% raid buffs/debuffs across all jobs that are meant to be stacked in a 2 minute window, it creates sterilized gameplay where theres no actual skill expression in using well-timed buffs and makes them not matter at all in the realm of pug groups which are the most low quality gameplay the game has to offer in comparison to other mmos. The buffs/debuffs also aren’t varied which becomes astounding when you compare to the arr-hw era where you had things they removed that required actual skill expression to use such as blind, slow, heavy, cooldown buff, the entire royal road system with damage/defense/speed buffs, mp reduction buff (as shortlived as it was could be creatively used to buff blm dps)The healer and tank stuff is also absolutely true with no room to argue. Tanks cannot lose aggro from dps and healers literally are designed around healing as little as possible
>>740010816kek
>>740010879>AIM integrated into The Matrix OnlineHoly peak it was good. No private server for it is pretty sad...
>>740024939The content being shitty and easy doesn’t mean that character progression wasn’t chock full of skills that were straight downgrades of other skills with basically 0 niches.
>>740024643>>740024710This is what happens when your mind only functions on nu-mmo raid first design. These weren't fast paced, rotation based games, nor were they hard. All you needed was basic reading comprehension to play decently. You could also ask other players for clarification.
>>740024619why does she have the chud frown?
>>740025062Someone never played UO.
>>740024863It's true that it's not economical for sure, however you don't need to strategize beyond playing a tank, dps and a healer for a dungeon. You'll get shepherded or do some reading maybe for a few of them, but the content on the whole was easier back then. Raiding wasn't considered casual content, it wasn't necessarily a guarantee that you would get to experience that which is another difference between modern games in general and back then - buying in didn't mean you just got to see everything without trying.But tons of semi casuals absolutely would throw themselves at raids and as they slowly got more gear, eventually they cleared them - and they got nerfed too The communal element of play wasn't strategizing really, it wasn't horribly stressful if you weren't playing with an odd obsessive.
Niggers ruined MMOs>you WILL speed run>you WILL have logs>you WILL have all-star points>you WILL NOT communicate because communicating means your not speed running>you WILL NOT ask questions, asking questions means you dont know and will fuck up the speed run>you WILL have the best gearscore even though it can be cleared naked>you WILL boost>you WILL RMTand for whatever reason the EASIER the content is the WORSE this gets, classic wow is more gatekept then retail wow and retail wow is a fucking e-sportEvery MMO is like this now, even Everquest fell victim to it
>>740025062Then other players started writing long guides and explanations, and then you believe that this act ruined MMOs forever because wisdom that used to be explained in a world chat is now just static on a website.
>>740025117she's a bigoted chud who doesn't want eldritch void entities on her planet
>>740025062This is demonstratably not true given how many people, even the "pro" players at the time, were abysmally bad at the game by any modern standardClearly reading wasnt enough, a lot of the under-the-hood math is atrociously bad
>>740025147Maybe if MMOs had content worth a goddamn people wouldn’t feel the need to skip all the “Collect 20 worg knots” quests in favor of content anybody enjoys.
there's two decades of people only knowing the wow formula for mmos. nobody who played mmos before wow care anymore and have long since abandoned the genre, in most cases. mmos can't be good anymore because the only people that play them are total subhumans. the player base matters. the mmo user base before wow was far more intelligent, whiter and american, thus superior. the further we stray from the values the worse everything gets
>>740025058But it didn't matter. They weren't designed to be bad. Picking ret paladin and doing a dungeon or raid wasn't meant to just be bad or whatever, and you could split disc and holy and still do stuff as a priest. You could clear content.This argument is like saying there's no reason to pick a certain character in a fighting game because it's marginally worse than a similar rush down character, it's just a choice you can choose to make because it intrigues you. And yeah if WoW or any game kept walking in the same direction, sure they'd make those a little more beneficial while trying to maintain the flavor and I'm unsure if anyone reasonable thinks there should be something that is just plain bad for the sake of being bad beyond a few niche pieces of roleplaying equipment that tell little stories by existing.
>>740024875>>740024919Neither of you idiots are capable of reading huh? I quite literally said that they had rare spawns on a timer, what they didn't have were designated weekly rare spawns.
MMOs suck now because everyone treats it as a game to beat rather than another world separate from real life to exist in. MMOs never had the best combat, best roleplaying elements, best visuals, etc but what they had more than anything else was people invested. Now, most people do not care to invest themselves into one game. They have other games that will reward their dopamine addicted brains or do other things because of FOMO. The thing that killed MMOs wasn't the mechanics, it was the shift in gaming sentiment. You cannot convince the majority of people to put themselves through monotony and negative experiences even if the payoff is worth 100x more than an any game will give them. Have to go out of your way to write and convince a stranger to group up with you? Why when matchmaking can do it for you? Have to run across the world to get to another town? Why when instant travel exists? Have to be actively thinking about what skills to use during a boss? Why when the game will do it for you? All of these changes were made to try and hold on to the fleeting attention span of the players. MMOs cannot thrive in this environment, no matter how much money you throw at it. This is why Riot is so apprehensive about releasing their MMO. Anything they make isn't going to hit the same in this day and age and unless they find a way to somehow get players to invest their time and efforts for a longer payoff, it'll just be another average MMO that will exist solely for the universe they have built but not be the behemoth that old MMOs were.
>>740025135I played for a bit, then a thief stole my things after I forgot to logout before going to bed. Immediately quit after that.>>740025156No. You can be read online for clarification, or straight up be a meta-tranny. My problem is when such obnoxious faggots become the loud minority and dictate the course of the game. Or worse, end up making mmos themselves.>>740025252Yeah, they were ass compared to the hyper-optimised trannies of today, but they still managed to complete the content, so who cares?
>>740007707Wow, crazy how games of other genres can still be as immersive as the ones you played as a child tho.
>>740025675>You cannot convince the majority of people to put themselves through monotony and negative experiencesYOU SHOULD HAVE NEVER TRIED TO DO THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE YOU FUCKING NIGGER.THAT is why MMOs were shit games, because they landed on 'hurr hurr make them do really shitty, stretched out content for years so we can extract more subscription money from them!' Because there is a specific form of subnormal that gets enjoyment from doing digital chores.
>>740025886MMOs are supposed to be filled with long term goals because the point is to be living in another world. You just view it as content to complete, which is why MMOs were never meant for you and you never should have set foot in my genre.
>>740025886Kind of a moot point when the vast majority of players never reached max level in old mmos
>>740025886Calling any game a “chore” is an oxymoron. Your issue here is you not liking that type of gameplay. The cancer killing videogames is anyone who says anything like “the game doesn’t respect your time” because that fundamentally doesn’t make sense.
>>740026113You do not 'live in another world' by grinding a pack of skeletons to get another level so you can do something that's not mindnumbing, faggot. I was also here first.
>>740026168People who say "the game doesn't respect your time" are saying it because their ass got kicked by actual difficulty and they want an out. They are not saying what they mean.
>>740026203>I was also here first.You were absolutely not here first if you think MMOs are about grinding to endgame because that's where the "not mindnumbing" shit is.
>>740007316Literally none of this applies to NGS. Skill issue+seethe+cope balding wowlennials.
>>740024060"Yeah im stuck in level 1 area and cant follow progression">>740024137Thats fair and makes more sense than the guy who is arguing he cant traverse the land without being lost or whatever.>>740024281You being lost while gaming doesnt mean everyone else is trans.>>740024598>>740024413He says he has over 100 iq, but he gets lost. Crazy stuff.>>740024749Materia adds stats and the builds are based on gcd speed. You can fine tune it on a fight by fight basis too.>>740024949Read what I typed. The element thing would be nice, but everything else you listed is present. I'd like more fights akin to .hack balling cape challenge.
>>740026314Yes I was, and good thing that's not what I said.
>>740026394>Yes I wasYou were not, WoWnigger.>and good thing that's not what I saidYes you did. What else would you be grinding skeletons for? You seem to think leveling is a chore you have to go through to get to something "not mindnumbing". What else could you possibly mean? Don't backpedal now, you stupid bitch.
>>740026332Except everything else is not present with the exception of buffs/debuffs which were sterilized to the point where they shouldn’t even exist. Why do you not read what I typed outside of the first sentence?
>>740026332>Seething mass reply trannyholy kek
>>740026512Yes I was.>What else would you be grinding skeletons for?Skilling retard, which took less time to get somewhere relevant>You seem to think leveling is a chore you have to go through to get to something "not mindnumbing"Correct. It sucked in Everquest, it sucked in FFXI, it sucked in WoW. You're stuck in the theme park on rails trap.
>>740026332>Materia adds stats and the builds are based on gcd speed. You can fine tune it on a fight by fight basis too.That “fine tuning” accounts for maybe a 1% gain in dps in a specific moment of the fight, its completely inconsequential and doesn’t appeal to anyone in particular, unless you consider the 1% of raidtrannies that do world first on ultimates “people”
>>740026332>Materia adds stats and the builds are based on gcd speed.Builds are not based on GCD speed, any job melding speed does it because their rotation just doesn't function properly except at a very specific speed.
I'm starting RuneScape today, wish me luck. Going to make a main on both RS3 and OSRS.
>>740026923>botscape>ironmanscapelol, have fun
>nobody actually likes slow methodical progression and exploring a world with other people, we want to see numbers go up NOW!
>>740027282
>>740027282>complains about players not caring about player agency>doesn't understand how restricted player agency has been in every MMO he has ever played
>>740027282I view you as subhumans who actively shit up a genre I was playing, well before your branch existed I might add, with extremely bad games that drag on to absurdity the process of getting to the one thing they do uniquely well, so... yes. Fuck all of you.
>>740026631"Stop replying to me when I reply to you">>740026696People do it in savage in gen. Healers care about piety, dps/tanks care about attack speed. And as I discussed before, these numbers would include 25% of the pop. Potentially way more if numbers include level 1 chars as the 75%.>>740026773Some jobs like 2.5 but also can run at etc. The rotation changes enough for me but maybe its a personal opinion.
>>740027775>shit shit shit he's right how do i refute it...>uhhh...>WELL YOU COULDN'T NOCLIP IN EVERQUEST SO HAH! SO MUCH FOR CARING ABOUT PLAYER AGENCY!
>>740027968Retard.
>>740027043ironman is a meme on both osrs and rs3. you realize the novelty wears off FAST when you realize it actually IS just an ego mode.ironman in mmos was a mistake.
>>740016369> Final Fantasy XI players stopped using Thief in virtually all content as anything other than a Treasure Hunter bot within the first year of service.You are full of shit nigger
>>740027929fully melding speed only drops you to like 2.35s thoughxiv players really be like>wow I get two extra globals per minute, what exciting build variety!and then wonder why they get laughed at by people who play actual rpgs
>>740026168Many games don't feel like chores. MMOs are chores. Long lists of very easy objectives that take thousands of hours.
>>740028532That change plays more differently than wow for me (I play both).Most other mmos also dont have great options. Its either "bad low dps low impact" or "good and fun".
>>740028661>Long lists of very easy objectives that take thousands of hours.Comfy.
>>740028735Unironically kill yourself, holy shit.
>>740028661We must make it more accessible to the wider audience. MMOs can not survive without immigration.
>>740028801You ARE the wider audience, retardYou were explicitly targeted by psychologists
>>740028690>but what about wowtypicallisten, you and I both know all speed does is slightly alter your burst windowthe end result is that once every 2 minutes you can squeeze a buffed 4 into your 123calling that "build options" is laughable at best
>>740028961I'm not a WoWnigger getting my clitty off by seeing numbers go up, so no.
I hate korean developers! >digimon masters player>years of playtime >still no rank uI won't give you my money!
>>740028801How about you make it fucking engaging and not the worst slop your intern could come up with for 80% of the runtime.>>740028735You can just do chores. MMOs being second jobs with no paycheck is a terrible gamestate to exist in. Simulators eat your lunch.
>>740029113This
>>740029113>MAKE IT FUCKING ENGAGING>AND NO DON'T GIVE ME A GIANT DANGEROUS OPEN WORLD WHERE I HAVE TO COMMUNICATE WITH OTHER PEOPLE TO GET FOCUSED OBJECTIVES DONE, I WANT DAILY QUESTS AND DUNGEON FINDERS THAT MAKE MY GOOD BOY POINTS INCREASE BY +5 EVERY HOUR THAT'S REAL GAMEPLAY NOT SOME DUMB FUCKING CHORE
>>740029113>You can just do choresThat's dirty and exhausting and you can't socialize with people while doing it.
>>740029026It feels completely different than wow build changes.But yes it does make the rotation different in the end based on timers and gcd placement and gauge.Trinkets dont really change gameplay much.Other mmos? Idk if there are good ones to even discuss atp.
>>740029319I don't want to socialize with people while doing online chores because online chores piss me off and make me antisocial. I want to socialize with them when we're doing something interesting.
>>740029386Cool.
>>740029297Your idea of an MMO is not and has never been what the genre was. I don't want shitty daily quests, I don't need to replay old content for 300 hours. Make good and engaging content. At their core, the MMO is a 30-40 hour game that has been tortuously lengthened to 2000 hours with the worst content known to man.>>740029319Go to work.
>>740029297Yeah thats called like survival craft games desu. Valheim sounds more like what you want.Mmos never had that.
>>740029297Correct. I could solo just fine in UO and turn on a macro to do shit if it was ever tedious busywork. Catch up with the game design of a nearly 30 year old game already.
I tried out tbc annivers server recently.People get pissed off if you try and have fun during dungeons. I've been told to stop typing so many times now, not because I do it during combat but presumably because it prevents them from engaging the next pack ASAP.Turns out raiding is so scoped out that even pugs know pretty much exactly what to do. The few raids I went to didn't even bother with voice.The whole experience was about as lame as it could get, imo.
>>740029513Surprise, the genre hasn't been novel for two decades and people know the ins and outs.
>>740029446This. There is absolutely nothing stopping an MMO from being as engaging as a single player game except for designers being shit.
>>740029446>>740029465>MMOs were always WoWJust switch to gachashit where you belong.
>>740025268>create problem of boring quest design>sell solution of boosting>retard corpo drones will defend it
>>740029615Which of them had good and engaging content? Surely it's still alive, right? Surely it's not still the worst content known to man, right?
>>740029650Correct, you should never reward this with buying a boost. If they give you one for free, fine, but it incentivizes them being shit designers.
>>740029615MMOs before WoW in the same vein as WoW had the same problem, except instead of questing you grinded mobs for over 5x as long and it was even slower and more tedious.
normalfags ruined everything, socialization in MMOs was NEVER an issue for anyone until normalfags started crawling out of hell and weasling their way into the scene, suddenly the games going downhill and everyone playing it has an obnoxious personality, I wonder what the fucking common issue here is? ITS NORMALFAGS ALWAYS
>>740029650Except modern MMOs also directly boost leveling speed all the time
>>740029615Name me an mmo with difficult overworld that you are describing. You cant.
>>740029841The obnoxious people are r9k shutin autistic neets or tranny lgbt freakoutdramafags.
>>740029946See you in 4000 hours after you've exhausted the content (there's maybe 200 hours of good content)
>>740029946Are you going Body Type 1 or Body Type 2?
WoW is God WoW is KingWoW is forever
>>740030108
>>740030108WoW is likely forever, at least as "forever" as video games get but it's the kind of shambling corpse that should have died a decade ago.
>>740030203Nothing better has been, or ever will be, created. It will forever stand atop the MMO genre and arguably video games as a whole.
>>740030297The MMO genre is the very scum at the bottom of the barrel, but it's definitely the longest lasting and most popular one.
>>740029984Enjoy your constant weekly drama then. Sounds like you're part of the problem I'm describing if that's how you think
>>740029513Well, yeah, TBC is a solved game, and this like the 3rd relaunch of TBC classic? The only people still playing vanilla - WotLK relaunches are hyper-sweats who deal in RMT and powerlevelling for a two decade old version of the game.
>>740030108nah bro. wow is actually the most overrated shit ever.it feels like a humiliation ritual because you have to pay to play that shit.at least runescape is outright free to play and you can just get someone to give you a bond. i know wow has the tokens but u still have that base requirement of a humiliation ritual.i know we've all heard it before but "blizzard bad" is literally just true. they have no games truly worth playing. "b-but diablo 4" path of exile is free. you can torrent grim dawn or torchlight 2. there's no reason to pay for bad games anymore.
>>740030450Being inaccessible to shitbrown poorfags like you is just one of WoW's many strengths.
>>740030535Explain why your economy literally runs on browns farming gold to sell?
>>740030535Anyone who's ever been invaded by Goldrinn or Ragnaros knows you're full of shit.
>>740018019>Refuse to use communication methods everyone else uses (discord)If a piece of content in a game requires Discord to be done it's dead. If you can't simply find a group to do the content naturally in-game it shows that a very small number of people are actually interested in it. If you need Discord to even play the game then it's mega dead
>>740029325look I'm really trying to avoid wow comparisons, since my point here is that calling sksp melds "builds" is idioticHOWEVER, even then your argument is retarded because haste can drop your gcd by a full third whereas sksp can barely manage a tenth
>>740030626Misunderstanding the post ig?>>740030676Haste doesnt change rotation, just how much you mash the 3 available buttons. Wow doesnt even have rotations and less than 1/4th of 14s inputs. Its more reaction based on hitting the glory button.
>>740030535not wanting to spend money on bad games is actually very normal and what most people do.
>>740030108>WoW is God>WoW is KingWhoa, that's a bit problematic.WoW no longer identifies as that, and God and King are gross and gendered, don't you know.WoW identifies as Goddess (biologically male)and Queen (biologically male)
>>740007316>>old mmo>>all encounters designed around reacting to what is happening, very few telegraphed attacksLOLLMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>>740007707>all those seething replies because anon told them the truth
>>740031430mmos dont have to be ruined. for example osrs would MOSTLY be fine if they removed all the LGBT stuff and banned third-party clients like runelite. it's insane how people defend having a thousand plugins telling you how to do everything. even i know that shit is going to make the game boring. this is not even projection either. osrs with no plugins is actually pretty fun. but then you get those 1,000 runelite plugins and it instantly becomes the most boring shit ever conceived of by the human race.J-JUST OPTIMIZE THE FUN OUT OF THE GAME BRO.It's over.
>>740031005sksp doesn't change rotations either, you just have an extra charge of whateverthefuck when your cooldown startsthat's exactly how it works in wow tooyou're genuinely retarded
>>740031249>old MMO>all 'difficulty' is in wrangling a menuLMAOOOOO
>>740031578One game has rotation and the gauge changes based on it + skspd. The other is reaction to glory button and haste doesnt change anything.I like both games.
>>740031546For your definition of fun. Meanwhile EA accepted macros as fundamentally fine years before your stupid knockoff even existed.
>>740032132whats ea
>>740007316You hit the nail on the head for what is a major malfunction of modern MMO design, but I don't blame WoW alone
>>740032205What do you think.
>>740032474what mmo did ea make swtor? that game is booty.
>>740031835>has rotation and the gauge changes based on it + skspd.no, it fucking doesn'tstacking sksp means that you can squeeze an extra gauge spender into your cooldown windowstacking haste also means that you can squeeze an extra gauge spender into your cooldown windowit's the same exact shit, neither of them qualifies as "builds," and you're just embarrassing yourself by trying to force a meaningless comparison
>>740032512EA managed Ultima Online, newfag.
What would you do to fix WoW
>>740029925EverquestFFXI>umm no heh i didn't give any criteria so i can arbitrarily decide they aren't actually difficult or threatening at all so... looks like you lost ;)
>>740034892Kill it. The only way to fix wow is to consign it to memory, where the disappointing reality can't reach.
The thing people do not understand is that WoW is the most responsive MMO out there. There is zero jank in its movement and things happen the very instant you press a button (possible latency excluded, of course). There is nothing in the genre that FEELS as smooth as WoW, and that accounts for a lot. It's probably one of the biggest reasons the game still has as many players as it does, to be honest.
>>740034993>grindy = difficult
>>740035115>things that weren't saidYou've never tried to get through Highpass Hold
>>740007316I have always hated WoW because mana regens over time, so I agree with you 100%.
>>740017312There are many aspects of 1.0 that are strictly better than ARR and beyond. Classes being important, needing to level other classes for core skills, no market board so you had to actually put in a lot of effort to buy things, tp being a build up resource that you used on skills, non damaging spells being useful, the zones while copy pasted to hell where at least 10x larger and actually had exploration, the dungeons were not linear hallways with the stale three boss in an arena design. Also the lack of jumping and flight was a huge positive as well.
>>740035543You're correct but all of those things are anathema to the modern MMO player.
>>740016369And all they would have to do to solve players abusing unintended mechanics would be to have buffs drop off exponentially per buff used on a target, one buff is 100% effective, 2 buffs are 85% effective, three buffs are 15% effective and so on, until the "buffs" are only providing a percent of a percent of their original magnitude.
>>740035543When are you listing these "better aspects"?
>>740035154Why would I? I lost hours of play to a phone call and stopped playing the game. Wasn't having fun with it in the first place, there's nothing I detest more than doing a bunch of shitty grinding to be able to play with the people I wanted to.
>>740035828>navigating a dangerous area is grinding
>>740035879>tediously killing enemies for levels isn't grinding
>>740007316yeah no shitriot should have taken advantage of league being a team based game to make the league mmo party-based but i'm pretty sure they're just gonna make a shitty wow clone
>>740036097>navigating a dangerous area means killing enemies for levelsYou're just showcasing how little you know what you're talking about. You haven't played an MMO before WotLK.
>>740035729>>740035543Crafting recipes being far more complex, and not telling you what you need, leves being useful for levelling, many overworld mobs that could easily kill you, more in depth equipment beyond just (((ilevel))), fast travel being limited to a slowly regenerating resource, ship and airship travel being useful to be able to get to the capital cities. There are hundreds of things that 1.0 is a far better game for having that the loss of which made the game strictly worse.
>>740007707I can't tell if max QOL like WoW is optimal. Why make people walk to the dungeon? What are you actually serving? Just WPvP? It's a joke in most games, not that it has to be. But at least keep LFX queues to servers. Anyway, people never really communicated. It's really hard to keep players grouping when they're only relevant within a small, moving bracket. I would argue the best single way to increase retention and socialization is to forego leveling and just start everybody at the equivalent max. Approximately nobody likes forced questing and mob grinding. WotLK lost 70% of trial players by level 10 (when the game was the most popular). Classic only had 10% of level 10 characters hit 60. That would be 3% to max, not including people who quit the repetitive endgame. So, replace leveling with just equipment so that people can play together at whatever skill level they can manage, in any zone; maybe people won't quit in droves.
>>740036205Sounds like one part "obtuse is sovl" and two parts "it's dead so I get to reminisce about how it could have been the perfect game if it was just given a chance" (i.e. the Wildstar effect) vs what its successor became.
>>740036212>Why make people walk to the dungeon? What are you actually serving?It forces you to engage with the world, which is supposed to be a core element of the game. >I would argue the best single way to increase retention and socialization is to forego leveling and just start everybody at the equivalent maxHoly shit just fuck off and play Overwatch or something.
>>740036330The world is shit because the content is shit because all of the locations in the world only exist to be hubs for the worst quests known to mankind.
>>740007316This is what mmos have always been
>>740036205>Crafting recipes being far more complex, and not telling you what you need>recipes >not telling you what you need You dumb fucking idiot.
>>740036330They can engage with the world in one of a dozen other ways that are actually enjoyable. That's especially true for finding another party member for a dungeon or other activity. There's no reason to sit around for 15 minutes doing nothing, even moreso if people can't actually get past mobs. New World did fast travel really well, and teleport locations were good for WPvP. I don't think there's really an argument to any of this.>Questing, mob grinding, massive segregation, and 90% obsolete zones are good!Approximately nobody wants a dumbed down, forced tutorial. The stats speak for themselves.
>>740036681Once upon a time players had to actually discover recipes on their own and tell other people about them. I'm sure that absolutely horrifies you.
>>740036156>implying you weren't tediously killing enemies for levels in Everquest
>>740036772>implying you're above the age of 18 when you can't even follow a simple conversation about dangerous world zones
>>740036758>more popular = better game designWoWniggers love the McDonalds defense almost as much as they love fags, trannies, and the CIA.
>>740036825If you seriously consider grinding enemies exploration I can't help your terminal retardation.
>>740036890This conversation is about exploring dangerous zones. You are the only person talking about grinding because you're a spiritual shitskin who either can't follow a conversation or can't admit he was wrong.
>>740036875Okay, so your system is so good that literally nobody likes it. Mark of quality.
>>740036962How do you get to the point where you can explore dangerous zones retard.
>>740036681Next he'll tell you that the dumb minigames involved in crafting and materia being able to break gear was SOVL
>>740037145You create your character and you walk there. Are you retarded or something?
>>740037795Riveting. Going there early and getting oneshot from ten meters away by a melee mob is exceptionally riveting. My favorite part of video games is staring at ground textures and marveling at enemy damage numbers.
>>740007316Rotations are so hilariously stupid to me. I didn't know what a rotation was until I watched some YouTubers play WoW together and I actually couldn't fathom what a rotation was. Is there anything more anti-RPG than having a bunch of abilities that are 100% flavor text and you just spam in the correct order?
>>740037795I said explore, not immediately eat shit and die to them.
>>740036875>Making up arguments when I made two good points about fast travel and leveling.
Can somebody make another thread? Are MMO threads not one of the main reasons we're on /v/?
>>740038004>>740038473Alright so you concede that there were MMOs with dangerous worlds? Glad you could be an adult and admit you were wrong, even if it took a while to get there.
>>740038619Man, EVE's economy is good. I hate that stuff like mining and refining and ship production aren't as good of income as wormholes. Or as fun. But the game proves you can have megaguilds and bots and still have a good economy.
>>740038696Retard, the only reason you can't eat shit and die like that in modern WoW is because of zone scaling.
>>740038696"Dangerous worlds" being "Worlds with level gated enemies"? Yeah, those still exist. You can go die to high level garbage in FFXIV right now. The world is still easy, static, and boring.
>>740038810>>740038975The first dungeon you can get to in FFXI has max level enemies in it. You don't know what you're talking about and you should kill yourself.
>>740039127Yeah, so what you mean to say is "Level gated enemies that kill lowbies". Pretty pathetic, I guess. Look, that hunt target is at max level! You can die to that so fast!
>>740039184>THERE ARE NO DANGEROUS WORLDS>AND NO DANGEROUS ENEMIES DON'T COUNTSlurping up that concession.
>>740039127That's nice.
>>740039310>THE WORLD IS DANGEROUS, IT'S EVIL, IT'LL KILL YOU>as long as you aren't the correct level for the areaRiveting gameplay. Amazing.
Enemies can and should be dangerous without levels. I can't really believe people think leveling is the best of MMOs when we've been dealing with linear treadmill themeparks for two decades. It's time to make the world matter and delegate challenge and choice to simply where the player wants to farm what. Dynamic NPCs would be way more thrilling if they're as challenging in any zone as another, while grinding and trading for wealth and power.
>>740027282The longer this thread goes on this picture becomes more and more of a truth nuke
>>740039557Grinding is dogshit and anybody who likes it is brainbroken.>dude I spent 40 hours on the optimal grind getting my levels in the mines of gorgathon>no it was never hard or interesting and I watched youtube the whole time but I did it
>>740039637This.
>>740027282>>740039565I don't really see the analogy as anything but add-ons and quest markers making MMOs more accessible. But all of that greentext isn't true. People complain about player agency and worldbuilding and stuff all the time. And people would enjoy an MMO that finally breaks the treadmill themepark mold.
>>740039637A studio should just design and advertise "look, questing and grinding mobs are optional now, but here are a bunch of PvX and economic roles you can switch to throughout your day; enjoy being relevant".
I want to know how to do horizontal progression. I'm not much into element types bloating bank inventory.
>>740040063There are so many ways to do inventory. Bank slots, unlimited inventory with a weight restriction, storage caches you hide in the world. I think I would do unlimited with weight. In cities.
>>740040623I liked New World's city unique inventories.I wonder if players would prefer unique auction houses or global.
>>740040716Doesn't WoW have a global auction house that teleports items to you? That's fine unless you can figure out how to make travel worth it, and I guess risky.
>>740040824I think auction houses should be unique. I also want to make everywhere but cities PvP (except for PvE servers).
