>shields are great at negating and absorbing damage from enemies but trivialize encounters rendering the game boring and sterile if you go down that path >shields are a liability overall in downright every combat scenario, you would be better off not using one Is there a compromise that can please the average gamer?
Buckler
Garbage can lids.
>>740314056>weapons that can be used with shields are uncool with low damage>slower running speed with shield>can't roll effectively or wall run with shield >two handed weapons have blocking or parrying against projectiles>sword and shield cannot do effective poise damage>sword and shield cannot do effective knockback>sword and shield cannot do effective armor pierce>sword and shield cannot do effective aoe/cleaveJust off the top of my head. That being said, I still want really cool movesets with shields. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3A8pQ8t4Nk
>>740314056RPG set during the middle roman republic era when?
>>740314056I like how Elden ring handles them, where they just result in a different playstyle and make things a little easier at the cost of the damage you would be getting if you 2 handed your weapon.
>>740316067Sorry, best we can do is late republic/early empire with Expeditions: Rome and Nethergate
>>740314056>*flails behind you*Psssh... nothing personell kid.
>>740314056Okay but can we talk about how Romans were low test pussies for hiding behind a big shield? Versus Chad shirtless Gallic Warriors.
>>740317365Because being low test pussies lets you create a great era defining empire
>>740317060People weren't using these in antiquity.
>>740314056Look at this Ber-ber-ber. Saxes are hilarious, especially when they die watching us rasing their village and salting their lands.
>>740317675They should have.
>>740314056give them degradation til the break. Problem solved
>>740315295>just make shields a liability overall in downright every combat scenario, bro
>>740314056The game you're looking for is right here, son.
>>740314056The fact is that shields are better than 2 Handers in pretty much every video game ever. But they are way more boring.
>>740318223I don't think they had the tech. Bronze/primitive iron chains must be frail as fuck.
>>740314056Why did these morons try to fight shields head-on? Just use your superior agility to get behind him and land a critical hit in the back
>>740317060>also flails the guy behind you and yourselfThis is 100% a meme made by bored renaissance blacksmiths.
>>740318756wtf is that health bar
Nah. Shields are fun.Dodging is also fun.Keep both and let the player choose.
>>740319003Why didn't they fly the giant eagles behind enemy lines?
>>740319003>just ignore the mass ranked infantry and light cavalry on the flanks preventing your naked retard soldiers from getting behind roman lines and get behind Roman lines
>>740319003Do you think he screamed “CRITICAL HIT!” When he landed a fatal blow in real life?
>>740314056shields are cheap and readily available in the early game. a good compromise since you're too poor to afford real armor.once you're rich enough you're better off using a two-handed weapon and wearing a proper set of armor.
Is there an advantage to charging into battle shirtless, wearing slippers and only having a helmet?
>>740320870yes, there is
>>740314056The compromise is that my Katana folded over 9000time cut through effortlessly through you AND the shield as if both were paper.
>>740320870intimidation
>>740320870Not significantly.That said, the way the romans fought ment armor didnt help you much once things got close and personal anyway
>>740320870Whoever you are fighting will be scared of your complete lack of self-preservation.
>>740314056Make the shield part of the offensive option. Rather than hunkering down and waiting your turn, you have to be active to mitigate damage.Vermintide's pretty good with this
>>740314056make sure axes can break through the shields same with two-handed bludgeoning weapons from enemies or at least the bashing damage will rapidly drain your resources anyway when you block.
Why did the enemies keep hacking away at the shield if it clearly wasn't working?We literally have no idea how people in the past fought at all, we just make shit up based on what the vibes feel right.
>>740318756sns in monhun is either just sword or sword and hammer dual wielding depending on the game, you never actually want to use the damn thing as a shield
>>740321621While they could easily be inaccurate, the romans were good record keepers. Unless there was a multicentury conspiracy to lie about how the legions fought, we know how they fought
>>740321621What are you suggesting they try to do? Something like this?
>>740320870Yeah. It's cheaper, and when you're poor it's your only option
>>740321621the romans had writing, anon
>>740321621>Why did the enemies keep hacking away at the shield if it clearly wasn't working?It was more like a big shoving party while people got trampled or stabbed.
>>740321793Rough outlines and guesstimated troop numbers at best, we don't know the actual tactics used in detail.
>>740321621Some of their training manuals did survive you know, even if today we lack the bloodlust and willingness to kill to fully replicate their fighting style. Worse in that we care more about it looking like a cool dance fight.>Why did the enemies keep hacking away at the shield if it clearly wasn't working?If your enemy doesn't feel the need to hold on his shield and think himself perfectly protected just by holding it, he'll take the time and effort to use said shield to push & stab you.
>>740320870+75% agility
>>740321621holding up a shield is tiring. the goal would be to outlast your opponent, since you both have shields you're not at a huge disadvantage.
>>740321621because they were used to other enemies with shields where if you hack away at a front line enough eventually someone is going to get tired or piss their pants and drop formationthe thing with the Romans was that they were supremely well drilled so not only did they not break formation, but they knew how to pace themselves, swap out while maintaining a shield wall etca big part of it was also that a lot of enemies only got like one or 2 big battles against the Romans and then were defeated so they always faced enemies that were unused to their tactics
>>740319013A long sock with one or a few large stones in it is a very efficient melee weapon and is a flail/club mix
>>740314056Nice shield loser.
>>740317060>12th century weapon vs. ancient romansI think they'd have more problems than just the flail
>>740322373it's efficient against unarmored enemies, armored not so muchthe whole "blunt weapons ignore armor" thing is a complete meme, armor was very good at absorbing blunt impacts, it wasn't just a layer of metal over skin, it came with padding, people weren't stupid
>>740322202I watched some recreations of those and either those manuals were written by some ancient larper or the artist just plain suckedanyways, the result is often some really dumb poses that add no power to attacks and often leave the user wide open instead of putting their weapon inbetween themthat picture isn't the worst offender, but it also features sword over head and sword backwards, which are both absurd
>>740320870Aura farming. Even if you die, you mogged your armor wearing opponent, meaning that you won.
>>740314056Shields are weapon type
>>740322736>those manuals were written by some ancient larperwhat? no way!
>>740322736you have never held a weapon in your life
>>740320870He's lightrolling.
>>740317675Were you there mate?
Have a powerful shield that takes skill to use.
>>740321621>modern people sincerely believe that cavalry charged in a trianglestill the funniest shit to me
>>740314056why would you hack at his huge shield rather than try to tackle him with your owndude has way more armor on, he's not getting up fast
>>740322120And we have writing. But I don't go around believing everything I see on shitter or nuchan now do I? It would be a bit like explaining jihadi suicide bombers as just blowing themselves because they didn't understand bombs.
Romans used fishing nets to disable their opponents in the arena, as far as I recall. There is no defense against fishing nets. We're talking about arena combat, yes? Otherwise bows and arrows defeat everything. And artillery.
>>740314056Make timed blocks a requirement, doesnt have to be as strict as a parry but if you just hold the shield up the enemy could be programmed to use a move that bypasses it, for example magic.
>>740322976most armies back in the day would fight in tight formations (numerous contemporary sources can attest to this). good luck using a flail without accidentally hitting one of your comrades. and those that didn't fight in tight formations (like germanic or briton tribes) wouldn't have been technologically capable of making them.
>>740321282That's absolute nonsenseA chainmail shirt was undoubtedly a very handy piece of equipment from its creation, till about 2000 years afterwards
>>740316067>middle roman republic>gladius>segmentata>imperial italic helmetRead a book.
>>740323240What about ten guys around him that will then ventilate you?
>>740323559why don't I have ten guys
>>740314056>Vae victis
>>740323240he has a short sword nigga. you're getting stabbed in the chest (a very large target, easy to hit) before you even have a chance at going for the face or the neck.
>roman empire shits and sharts itself against some german savagesWhy? Byzantium at least had both the ottomans and the mongols against them
>>740323470Chairmail doesnt protect you from getting stabbed in other places, doesnt stop your neck from breaking when a shield slams into your face, doesnt stop you from being trampled. And I would also question what percentage of a gaelic tribal army would be wearing chainmail
>>740320870No. But there is no advantage in starving either, yet some people do.
>>740323370But the Celts invented the chain mail armor that the Romans adapted for themselves
I go into these threads just to laugh at speed fags
>>740323819>hire an army of German warriors to win a war of succession against your political rivals>refuse to pay them when it's over>they sack and occupy RomeMan, who could have seen that coming.
>>740323630Your guys are gub gub swamp people that don't fight in tight formation.>>740323819Massive oversimplfication. Collapse of the unifed empire was a multi century process of cockups, invasions, corruption, inflation and so on.
Why not just dodgeroll around the shield and do a backstab for massive damage
>>740323240heavier dudes are harder to take down, the armor works to his advantage here
>>740323947speed fags won though, armor always end up being useless
>>740323819Rome needed a rival on the Mediterranean, once they lost that they started rotting away. Persia was too far away for any real rivalry.
Why use a shield when you can use two swords and do double attacks against the shield?
I really like slings + shield combo, only in Baldur's Gate I can use it though, modern gaymers don't even know slings are a thing
>>740317060How the fuck are you gonna swing that when you're in a tight crowd getting squeezed?
>>740323874celts aren't britons nor are they germanic. and in any case, flails just aren't great to use in real life compared to say, a sword or even a regular mace. it's surpisingly hard to hit someone with a flail in an actual duel and they're completely useless outside of an extremely specific range since you can only strike at a single point.
>>740314056Why doesn't that Gaul's shield have a picrel hanging from it rendering it useless?As with the earlier heavy armor thread, Battle Bruvas also does shields right.
>>740324239modern gaymers don't even know slings are a thingBecause once good bows were made cheaply and easily slings were immediately obsolete
Shieldfags never recovered from this one.
>>740320870You're forgetting that Romans had to be drilled and disciplined to keep and maintain all their gear on the move. Most Barbarians don't bother with that shit since you need a well-oiled supply chain to do so and for the barbarians it's usually just the local surroundings that they have going for them. So what they bring is usually just shit for fighting rather than building tools and encamping material.
>>740324328You're wrong, all Britons were Celts, but not all Celts were Britons.
>>740324438What the fuck was Crassus even thinking with this.
>>740322537People always forget that many "blunt" weapons actually had little spikes/points and those were what fucked armour users
>>740320870you're lucky he's wearing pants
>>740324520
>>740323856You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. If armor wasn't effective, why was Rome's entire bread and butter heavily armored infantry? If the Gauls had no armor, why was all Roman armor, and even the gladius, based off Gaelic and Celtiberian designs until the 2nd century. Also, the celts literally invented chainmail, retard. It predates an organized Roman army, and is still used to this day.
>>740324438Now imagine standing there without a shield. Checkmate atheists
>pretends to run away
>>740320870No. They went shirtless because they were poor. Massive wealth divide between the common grunt and the aristos.Keep in mind, romans adapted mail from gauls so it's not like they didn't have it at all, but only their warrior elite could afford it. Rome on the other hand just handed it out to every enlisted by Caesar's time.
>>740324438>>740324610Reminder that this actually worked against the Parthian cataphract charges (hollow square formation). Crassus just shat the bed into maneuvering into a better position.
>>740324616>If armor wasn't effective, why was Rome's entire bread and butter heavily armored infantry?I said if you were fighting Romans then your armor didnt matter much. I'm not reading the rest of your post if your crash out is based entirely around your inability to read
>>740321621>Why did the enemies keep hacking away at the shield if it clearly wasn't working?That was the result of the dude holding the shield moving it to intercept the enemy's weapon, not a specific targeting decision from the attacker.
>>740323530>gladiusgladius hispaniensis, La Tène B sword>segmentanta spongia pectoris, hamata>imperial italic helmetmontefortino, coolus, agen-port
>>740324616>If the Gauls had no armor, why was all Roman armor, and even the gladius, based off Gaelic and Celtiberian designs until the 2nd century.>Also, the celts literally invented chainmail, retard. It predates an organized Roman army, and is still used to this day.There's a difference between knowing a thing and creating a thing and being able to widely produce a thing.The Romans did because they were wealthy. The Celts were not.
>>740324616>chainmailNo one people invented that. It was a simultaneous invention like the bow and arrow.
>>740324510fair enough. but even so, as far as I know, they didn't really wear armor. besides their chieftains. still doesn't change the fact that flails are inefficient weapons that were rarely used even in the medieval period (and the few flails that were used were likely two handed, long flails).
>>740324687>gets crossbowed in his faggot horse
>>740317060How do you not bust your head open accidentally with this shit when it swings back?
>>740324852In Europe yes, it was the celts who invented it and from which every other surrounding culture encountered it.
>>740322373>>740322537Finally someone who understands this. Blunt weapons like maces were only good against mail armor, because mail armor wasn't rigid and therefore bad at absorbing blunt force impact, even with padding underneath. Mail armor was the best many could afford for some time, so in the context of this, yes, heavy blunt weapons could be considered "anti-armor". However, against plate, maces were pretty useless. A good whack on the head using a warhammer would be needed to take out someone in plate, because the head is the only body part that is very very hard to protect effectively, due to its susceptibility to trauma. Even if your skull remains intakt, your brain is still being shaken around inside your skull if a heavy thing hits your head, and armor cannot really prevent that. But delivering a clean and direct hit to someone's head is easier said than done, as they will of course try to prevent that.
>>740324981The Etruscans literally had their own interlocking mail armor.
>>740320870It's called aura bruh
>>740324849definitely, chainmail would've been expensive as fuck and the 'celts' who got to wear them were mainly nobles. at least, according to roman accounts.
>>740314056>weapon/javelin gets embedded into shield>becomes useless until you pull it outthere, fixed.it really would be useless, like it'd be so uncomfortable holding such an off-balance thing.and pulling it out could be a whole ordeal, dropping your guard for many seconds
>>740322736>but it also features sword over head and sword backwards, which are both absurdYes, nevermind that they appear in every manual worldwide regardless of period and are the foundation of two of the most important cuts in fencing, clearly they're dumb and weak poses for larpers, you know best.
>>740324950bigger helmet
>>740324880>fair enough. but even so, as far as I know, they didn't really wear armor. besides their chieftainsTrue, only those who could afford it. And you're talking to someone different I think lol. I never mentioned flails, but they do make for good self punishments tools if you're like that. And maybe in a arena, they might be useful? And slaves of course
>>740324567No, they didn't. Their only purpose was to provide a little more "grip", so the weapon wouldn't glance off so easily, making it able to deliver more of its force to the actual target. Which worked against non-rigid armor, like mail, but good plate armor didn't care about some funnny spikes.
>>740323856>>740323470"Chainmail" isn't a fucking thing you retardsat best you'd call it "Mail". There was no "Chain". Literally look it upfucking poser ass retards fighting it out on my front lawn
>>740325281>No, they didn'tpic rel, a blunt weapon
>>740324950That pic is nonsense. Proper flails have a head+chain shorter than the handle, for, you know, being able to hold it safely.One handed flails were exceedingly rare. Two handed flails were employed to great effect by the hussites from their war wagons.
>>740325342
>>740325470Look, if dumbshits are going to retard fight about something but BOTH be wrong, I have to call them out on their FUCKING stupidity.
>>740324438>Shieldfags never recovered from this oneYou mean holding out for so long that the parthians had to run to nearby towns to pick up more arrows? Never recovered from the fact that it took hours of being exhausted before heavy cav had to come in to actually do the job of winning?
Bros...
>>740325342chainmail is literally just a colloquial way of referring to mail in english. you're just being needlessly pedantic.
I'd find Romeboos more tolerable if it wasn't for the 1/4th of them being mutts projecting modern multicultism on them.When Roman writings mention foreigners at all, including the few around in Rome, it's usually sharp mockery.Exceptions where praise occurred about as much as mockery generally being Athenians, Spartans (Asia Minor-speaking greeks were not favorably described) and, to the seethe of the self-same multicultist, Germanics.
>>740325212but are they useful? without armor, any nudge of the weapon will potentially kill you, so no way you want your own weapon not pointing towards your targetwith proper armor, no matter from where you swing, it won't help to get through that armor anyway
>>740324762>I said if you were fighting Romans then your armor didnt matter much.And it's a retarded and baseless claim. For fucks sake, one of the worst defeats in Roman history was them getting ass slammed by heavy African infantry.
TRY RUNNING AWAY NOW YOU STUPID FUCKING BASTARDS
>>740322375The AI keeps backing out, a real soldier or knight would keep pushing and shank you with a dagger to the face.
>>740322120We unironically know of more roman writings from books that survived to us than we have books that survived.99% of roman written works are lost, including basically all technical work. We have nowhere near the amount of understanding of roman warfare that we have for medieval warfare (and we don't understand medieval warfare all that well either).
>>740325617>Romeboosyou forced my handhttps://youtu.be/CBAVw6LuGxI
>>740325720let's see what happens when they "keep pushing"
>>740325617Well yeah. We all know that the world would've been better had Alexander the Great (PBUH) finished forming his GRECO-PERSIAN-ARABIAN-INDIAN-CHINESE EMPIRE.
>>740314562stfu axis
>>740321319>Whoever you are fighting will be scared of your complete lack of self-preservation.This is what the French unironically believed going into WW1, then all of them died.
>>740325689>heavy African infantryNot a thing, africa was hilariously inept in war
>>740326054That's pretty scary.
>>740322373nigga please don’t come at anyone swinging a sock around lol
>>740325581It's literally not though
>>740325904that cunt was a mere raider, forced to perpetually push forward in order to pay his mercs, not a conqueror
>>740325554
i will take this opportunity to shill Never Second in Rome. fun 'strategy' game about being a centurion under Caesar during the late roman republic.
>>740322247Main advantage Rome had is that they could maintain a professional army even after losing entire legions in disastrous battles.
>>740326084The Numidians would beg to differ.
>>740325857>the stick part draws bloodMight aswel tell me ssj5 ultra instinct goku sharingan rasengan is swinging that shit if you're going to be a child about it. Make it funny instead of lame.
>>740326084he's talking about carthaginians, methinks
>>740315295Shield + 3 sets of throwing axes is pretty cool in Mount & Blade since you can use them in melee.>Running away from me? No you're not.>Trying to charge me with a horse? Axe to the faceAlso they kind of shred enemy shield walls when you use your troops right.
>>740326224I already played this.
>>740326181>that cunt was a mere raider, forced to perpetually push forward in order to pay his mercsActually no, he forced his army to push way farther than they ever wanted to and only turned back because they were on the verge of a mutiny. They wanted land in Greece but he was a homicidal maniac who wanted to conquer more and more
>>740326137in the 20th and 21st centuries, yes, it is. objectively speaking. of course, it wouldn't have been called chainmail back in the day, but people didn't call big early modern swords 'greatswords' back then either and you don't see people sperging out about that.
>>740325384The spikey end kind of stretches the definition of "blunt" but yeah.
>>740326181He was a god
>>740326390what did you think? the RNG elements got on my nerves many times but I'd say it was a pretty fun game overall.
Was this literally that hard to invent and standardize?
>>740326956I 100% it. It's an improvement in the army battles compared to the first game but yes the RNGs values are really steep.
>>740326550>greatswordsthey're called spadones, montantes or zweihanders, depending on the specific type!kidding, kidding...
>>740326181Alexander literally thought and believed he was immortal. Look at the kind of maneuvers he does in battles, literally breaking all convention.
>>740327037Weren't these so inaccurate, that you had to use them as melee weapons essentially? The Polearm-gun at least looks like it was created with this in mind.
>>740314056why did they just go around the shied?
>>740327037It wasn't hard at all. People were just retarded back then and had no incentive (or means, honestly) to learn anything.
>>740327534They're good against horses and walls.
>>740327037Yes, try making a pressure-bearing cylinder like that by forge welding together small strips of iron.
>>740327571Because of Attack of Opportunity when you break engagement.
>>740327571they had a buddy next to either side of them, also with a shield. so youve got pointy front, pointy right side or pointy from someone else left side. its all pointy
>>740319003Because behind that guy is another guy with a big shield.
>>740327534Until the arquebus their effects on enemy morale were greater than the damage itself (not unlike the german stick grenades, funnily enough).
>>740325857Now with a shield that is actually the size of a roman's
>>740328178so does my buddy not just go around his buddy, and then go around my guy?is he lazy or something
>>740327571people often did. realistically cavalry should prevent that but>roman cavalrylol
>>740328497
>>740328386Orbis and Agmen Quadratum usually had something inside their circle like archers or whatever that could assault from that position any enroaching enemy or even siege weaponry.
>>740325657>but are they useful?Yes. What you don't understand is that those poses aren't meant to be "waiting" guards, they're meant to be resets.Which is to say, you're supposed to flow from guard to guard as you swing.The manuals are very explicit about guards having very different uses, and being divided in different categories.Like Fiore uses stable/unstable/reactive as categories, which should give you an idea of whether you're meant to hold them, start in them or end in them.It really shows that you haven't read any of these manuals, because they're really very complex about how to actually use the techniques, and you won't get anything from just looking at the pictures.
>>740327534You'd be surprised. The culverin at least was fairly accurate (with an effective range of over 450 meters).>>740327627Wrong. We don't know much about the craftsmen/engineers of the time since they disliked writing things down and preferred passing down information directly to have a 'monopoly' of sorts on their trade, but even with the little we do know, it's pretty obvious that they were intelligent. (source: contemporary works such as De re metallica by Georgius Agricola).
>>740322824>Coward with armor paid by daddy won't come into weapon's reach>Humiliate him by spending time unscrewing my pommel>Win by opponent being too much of a cvckOnly explanation I can come up with. You hurt his honor for the rest of his life.
War never changes.
>>740328828I admire how much fun you're having.
>>740329030I would just yell:>Come and fight me personally blind cuckoo, or I shall go to your wife's chambers instead of fighting right now to give her a good tussle! Wench fucker!
>>740328647was hannibal on par with napoleon?
>>740327990That isn't hard at all, I do this using my oven.
>>740328993You're confusing small culverins with the big artillery culverins. And the latter's accuracy was more about hitting a building/formation/ship.
>>740323710Oh yeah, I'm looking at all the Celtic letters on my keyboard right now.
>>740314056>chain mail>helmet>shield>swordPerfect combination, what more do you need?
>>740322736No manual is ever perfect, and context change.There's no such things as a perfect technique in the first place, you can't count on your opponent to give you the perfect opening or to use a specific weapon you trained against.So those manual were likely mostly exercises to familiarize someone with the dynamic of a weapon. Those "silly backward sword"? Maybe these were exercise to show how to save a situation where an enemy suddenly arrive from behind.
>>740328993>We don't know much about the craftsmen/engineers of the timeWe know that they were fucking morons who took thousands of years to come up with simple shit.
>>740329578Try Genghis Khan, same vibes, same loss reasons.
>>740327037metallurgy wasnt there yet. couldnt handle more powder and thus more pressure so what you got were shitty guns firing slow, innaccurate projectiles.
>>740329524this guy duels!
>>740329730my handy bottle of liquid morale
>>740328828And now, finally, with an intelligent opponent who knows how to use a shield.
>>740314056>makes the player slower, if sprint/stamina is a feature then running with one costs more>takes longer to don/doff compared with simply swapping weapons>if durability is a feature, shields suffer faster than metal weapons. This is one way I would balance spears as wellThere
>>740329578Hannibal has no tactical feat akin to Napoleon's The Six Days' Campaign which was fucking insane.
>>740322736they are always stiff in pictures, but the people who practiced them x100 knew how to execute them in a way that would generate and add power, just like how I could show you how to throw a punch but you would still generate lackluster energy and output because your timing is way off and your posture is trash.
>>740329578as a battlefield commander at least. though napoleons real strength was in modernizing army staff systems.also fun fact, we only have mayonnaise because of hannibal (or his brother, to be exact).
>>740314056Simple, make shields good for reliably reducing damage in protracted close combat but incompatible or detrimental to weapon classes or playstyles that have other obvious advantages such as two-handed long weapons, magic, evasiveness etc.
>>740330465France laid the concept in standardizing and mass industrialization of arms with interchangeable parts but it wasn't until the US that actually perfected and realized it by the 1800s.
>>740329578Napoleon would've sacked Rome right after Cannae and ended the second punic war right then and there and possibly Rome altogether.
>>740329631>You're confusing small culverins with the big artillery culverins.oh yeah my bad. still, i can't imagine that they would be significantly less accurate than smoothbore muskets in the hands of a trained user, though i'm sure they'd be less practical>>740329875do you know how to separate silver from copper or iron? how to assay an ore? how to produce nitre, alum, vitrol, saltpeter, sulfur or bitumen? do you even know how a wheellock firearm works? people weren't less intelligent back then, they just had less cumulative knowledge than we did.
>camels on fire
>>740325080Mace and heavy weapon did fuckup plate armor, denting them, ruining their articulations, knocking your target out if there's not enough padding (can't do miracle here) making your enemy fall and so on...But they weren't a "dedicated counter" because wearing plate armor was like being IRON MAN, an almost invincible warrior that deflect all blades unless you manage to attack a joint from the right angle without him killing you in the process.
>>740325080>>740331697The Warhammer made heavy plate obsolete and was the pinnacle of melee weaponry
>>740331479>it worked
>>740326224Tried the demo and made Caesar hate my guts in less than 10 minutes
>>740321978I know this movie was shit but I still liked it as a kid.>Tfw you will never be a Chad, blind, druid in your swamp and get a cute tomboy GF.Feels bad man.
>>740326224A Legionary's Life is also really good, by the same dev.
>>740331929nopehttps://youtu.be/xxYpuO_FNjc
>>740331479>camel turrets
War will never be cool again, huh? It used to be a based contest of manliness and camaraderie, a team sport with literally thousands of warriors who actually fought and actually meant something. An epic event and noble pastime. Now it's just bitchmade warfare. Drones and long distance artillery and robots. You will never stare into the eyes of the man you killed. You will never fight for a legion of Rome.
>>740322174Nah the Romans would have definitely written about it because the key from that sentence is "keep hacking away at the shield if it clearly wasn't working?" and they can't resist shitting on their enemies even in writing.>"These retarded barbarians just think they can keep swinging at our shields to win. It's no wonder we defeated them so handily lol lmao"
https://www.thearma.org/essays/Lalaing.htmAn account of a knight in full plate getting hit in the head 3 times with a poleaxe and just getting up like it's nothing.
>>740332639The movie is worth it for Ruber alone, regardless of the rest.
>>740331929plate outlasted the warhammer
>>740332773i love this guy. it turns out that the only way to take out an armored early modern knight would've either been to hit him with a cannon (breastplates were made to handle regular bullets) or a heavy crossbow or to wrestle him to the ground until you somehow manage to slice his throat open with a dagger.
>>740333119Ukraine made war gay like it makes everything else gay. Fuck that "country".
>>740333119War has always been horrific. Now it's just horrific AND extra retarded
>>740325691You're telling me they really named a geographical location 'MOUNT DE BUSSY'?
>>740333870modern war has always been gay.
>>740334205Humans fucking minmax the fun out of everything.Absolute tryhards
>>740333870Any major war after the commercial drone became so common would have resulted in the same thing, it's just too convenient having a small load-bearing flying thing that's highly maneuvarable and can carry a camera
>>740314056>celtoids, germoids and nordoids eternally mogged by RomeGodsHow do eurocucks even look at themselves in the mirror?
>>740331407>do you know how to separate silver from copper or iron? how to assay an ore? how to produce nitre, alum, vitrol, saltpeter, sulfur or bitumen? do you even know how a wheellock firearm works? people weren't less intelligent back then, they just had less cumulative knowledge than we did.would take me less than 10000 years to figure out lol
>>740333682Enough arrows (see Crecy) also do the trick, as well as heavy hits to the head (polearms or maces) so you concuss through armor.But yeah, hardened steel plate clad warriors were walking tanks.
>>740326121its the most effective improvised weapon in prison setting next to a shank made from a razor or sharpened iron stick.
>>740329730Amen, brother
>>740334905since you're retarded enough to be on this website with the rest of us i highly doubt it.
>>740333119It'll only be cool again if it turns into mass televised 1v1s between generals and leaders. But obviously that won't happen
>>740333870>>740334205>Born too late to get land after a career as legionary>Too early for remote controlled robot-on-robot warfare e-sports>Just in time to die in a trench by a fag with a VR headsetAnyway, there's a bit in All Quiet on the West where the MC tells an younger soldier to change bayonets because the enemy would stuff you with sawdust if they captured you carrying it and it immediately recalled me of some soldiers saying that drone pilots would get tortured if captured.
>>740322373You never actually tried that because the first hit will rip the sock
>>740335064a pike, of course.
>>740331929That is not true. Warhammers were very effective against plate initially, but plate kept evolving. It was given a more rounded shape, to make hammer glance off more effectively, the quality of steel became better, the gambesons worn underneath were made thicker to absorb the blunt impact better. And while the warhammer remained the biggest threat by far for plate-users, the use of plate armor against all other weapon types was still to big a factor to give it up entirely just because there was a single weapon type that could potentially hurt you. Especially since that weapon sucked against any other weapon. It was firearms that made plate armor obsolete, not warhammers.
>>740314056the compromise is striking the right balance between chip damage on block and higher damage on twohanding
>>740335701>It was firearms that made plate armor obsoleteyou sure about that?
Just have varied encounters with enemies designed to counter specific builds. Shield can be strong against certain types of enemies, but there should be enemies where it doesn't help much if at all, to reward other play styles.
>>740336447no
>>740331407>people weren't less intelligent back then, they just had less cumulative knowledge than we didwhen they finally invented guns they thought the best way to use them was to all stand together in a big line and shoot at each other
>>740314056>>shields are great at negating and absorbing damage from enemies but trivialize encounters rendering the game boring and sterile if you go down that paththat sounds like fun actually
I want a game where you use a sling>"But when Hamilcar saw that his men were being overpowered and that the Greeks in constantly increasing number were making their way into the camp, he brought up his slingers, who came from the Balearic Islands and numbered at least a thousand. By hurling a shower of great stones, they wounded many and even killed not a few of those who were attacking, and they shattered the defensive armor of most of them. For these men, who are accustomed to sling stones weighing a mina [21 ounces], contribute a great deal toward victory in battle. In this way they drove the Greeks from the camp and defeated them".
>>740335701>>740331929Also consider that warhammers were more or less a desperate measure against plate. They were unwieldy, limited in reach due to the combination of weight and lever, and pretty much at a disadvantage when fighting any other weapon. Also, if you had two people fighting using warhammers, but one gets to wear plate armor, that guy would still win, because arnor being less effctive doesn't mean it is not effective at all. With plate armor Many hits that would kill you will merely injure you, hits that would injure you will only hurt you and so on. Don't get me wrong, warhammers were an effective can opener, but they weren't the the silver to the armors werewolf. Wearing an armor, even against a warhammer, was still better than wearing no armor.
>>740333682Pretty sure breastplates were only rated for pistols and a musket could still get through, also the way they were making bullet proof armor it had to be thicker and heavier so they werent going to make leg, arm, and head protection that way so you could still shoot them everywhere besides the chest
>>740326224Is this Chapter Master but Roman Legions instead of 40k?
>>740338196No, it's a linear management/combat game.
>>740324382I know what slinging is.(Also fuck Taleworlds for canceling the sling in bannerlord. it was in as a placeholder but they left it as throwing rocks.)
>>740320870I guess the same reason I'm more worried about the ghurka nigger with nothing but basic fatigues and his knoife than the chap loaded down with plate carriers and near battle rifle.
>>740337651It's weird but it's was the best solution as cavalry would wipe the floor of the poor infantry without a cohesive formation. Look up tercios for how early the concept was implemented, it coalesced from dedicated troops with a specific job into a single soldier that did all.
>>740337883Well it would obviously vary significantly but some of them could withstand musket bullets from most angles. But you probably wouldn't be walking away from getting shot in the chest unless you're in a really high adrenaline situation. And yeah, I didn't say that your legs, arms, and head were protected, but they're smaller targets and it's unlikely that musketeers would've aimed for them. You're better off mostly disabling someone by cracking all their ribs and shooting them in the chest than trying to shoot them in the leg or head and missing. I would assume, at least.
>>740323852>Turns out bullets were always extremely lethal but kind of gay.
>>740324520>Boy I'm glad I hired a femboy who kind of looks like me. I sure hope he doesn't get captured and paraded around the middle east as me in a dress and probably fucked nightly.
>>740329934One of my first jobs was casting bronze and I'm sad I was very bad at it and found a different job because it was so laissez faire I absolutely could have forged my own handgonne. Actually I couldn't now because my hands are shit but still.
>>740337651yes because that's the best way to use them so a bunch of guys on horses can't run you over for freeconcentration of firepower is the single most important facet of modern warfare and when you're firing 3 shots a minute on a good day you're not stopping a goddamned thing
>>740339086>>740340482no it wasn't lol you're retarded
>>740340627sure buddy whatever you say
>>740340627>t. ran over by a cavalry charge on enemy contact
>>740336447We need more Ned/Killdozer approaches that just return to probably requiring you're treated like an even less mobile tank and tipped over by prankster youths.
>>740340627>nuh-uh i'd be big hero man and solo charge the enemy gunline of 400 rifles and not get torn in half!
For me, it was effective Especially using the stance where you are immune to knockdowns
>>740341478damnhow long did you serve? in which century? was your fighting style any good in brittania?
>>740321621>Why did the enemies keep hacking away at the shield if it clearly wasn't working?Cause it actually did work, against other barbarians. Germans in particular were known for this style of fighting, of savagely, relentlessly attacking, throwing themselves at the enemy. This had the effect of terrorizing their enemies, which made them more likely to flee rather than stand and fight, which was the point of it. Chasing down a routed foe is a lot easier than a stand up fight. Also, a lot of the shields used by German, Gallic, and Iberian tribes were not very sturdy and wouldn't hold up to that kind of ferocious attack, especially not from a good quality iron weapon that the Celts in particular were adept at forging (the Romans actually copied the Gladius design and forging technique from the Celts of Iberia). The Roman legion's main advantage over the taller, stronger, more ferocious barbarians of Gaul and Germania was their discipline. Terror tactics didn't work very well on the legion. It's not that they were immune to fear, they were simply conditioned to obey despite being afraid, and would hold formation far past the point other armies would break. Usually, the only way you could rout a Roman army was by completely overrunning their position and disrupting their formation to the point that their officers couldn't maintain cohesion. But getting to that point is difficult if your primary tactics of terror and savage attack don't work on a legion shield wall.
>>740314056Historians seem to say that the shield use and development matches the development of chest armor. At Crecy, English knights for example would have shields to protect their coat or mail covering their torso. But two generations later, Henry V's knights would have more two handers as they upgraded to plate.
>>740342175none of that is true
>>740321621because you're swinging away for a minute or less trying to find the opening or spook the other guy into making a mistake and by the end you're fucking exhausted and get stabbedswinging a sword takes energy
>>740342815It's all true, we have written accounts from various Roman sources who attest to the way Gauls, Celts, and Germans fought, and the type of arms and armor they used. This way of fighting, though, was abandoned by those tribes who had sustained conflict with the Romans. Germans only really fought this way against the Roman Republic in Caesar's day, but by the time of Augustus they had adapted.
>>740343161it sounds retarded so it definitely wasn't true
>>740321621A shield doesn't take away the blunt force, if you break your opponents arm it's now a dead weight liability. Large Shields were mostly used in formations because that's about the only area they shine and small shields like bucklers were used as non blunt weapon area denial in sword fighting.
Sun zu says it is better to be a shitty fuck than fucking shit.
>>740343832You weren't breaking anyone's arm through a shield unless you shot at it with a canon.
>>740343832Shield was default until plate torso armor in the 1400s
>>740344367they stopped using shields long before plate armor in favor of polearms
>>740343161>th-they wrote it!Fuck the Romans and their slanderous libel. They were bitchmade shieldhugging pastafarians who got lucky once or twice in war. End of story.
>>740340627spotted the silk stocking filled with shit
>>740342039It proved very effective in the battle of Hastings
>>740344007>You aren't breaking anyone's arm if they have it strapped to a big metal/wood lever. If it's the type that straps to your forearm it's gonna get smoked. >>740344367Probably due to weight/other equipment taking its place. Like crossbows.
>>740314056No. Its a piece of specialized equipment you should only use when appropriate. The tank power fantasy thats become tied to shields is as fake as it is gay.
>>740346324>this retard actually believes he can break someone's arm through a shield
>>740346663you must understand. people back in the day had glass bones and paper skin. this is why they needed to wear armor and use shields. once they started eating well they eventually ditched their armor sometime in the 17th century since their skin and bones were strong and healthy.
>>740346663I saw the witch king do it so obviously I can too
>>740346663We use to call them tard handles because you don't even need to go that far, you just grab it. Realizing their roman larp fantasy doesn't quite line up with reality stirs a dark but ultimately impotent tard rage within them and they spaz like a drunk ostrich. Hence, tard handles.
>>740346663Not everyone is a little sissy bitch like you, faggot
>>740316495>make things a little easierno it doesn'tno matter what you do, you will always take chip or significant amount of damage while blocking due to every relevant boss boss dealing elemental damage, so now you can't even win the war of attrition (even though that's the point of shields) and you're also dealing fuckall damage
>>740349472anon if a human somehow manages to break your shield arm by hitting your scutum you're the sissy bitch with absurdly brittle bones
>>740346663>through a shieldYour reading comprehension is incredibly poor, either that or your physical grass touching comprehension. What I'm saying is the shield doesn't have to break, in fact it not breaking is more preferred when using it like a big rig wheel and treating your opponents arm like it's a power steering pump. If using a weapon like a hammer or axe you would hit the edge of it because that's where most of the force will transfer to his arm. The goal wasn't to break the shield, it was to use the shield against itself.
>>740351058>this retard actually believes he can break someone's arm through a shield
We already have the solution for shields tho? The mighty Shotel
>>740350685Wouldn't having a large mass attached to your arm make it easier to break?
>>740351058his reading comprehension is completely fine, you're still retarded. you physically cannot break someone's arm by hitting their shield. this is because the arm MOVES. the force of the impact is lessened by the fact that your arm is mobile. in addition to the fact that the shield lessens the impact by spreading it across a large area. unlike, for instance, smacking someone who's hitting someone who's wearing a chestplate in the stomach, which can definitely break a rib (since your torso is less mobile than your arm). At most I can imagine that if you get a lucky hit while the guy's arm is fully extended or something, you may be able to dislocate his shoulder.>>740352035yes using a shield totally makes your arm easier to break. makes total sense. you should run for president.
>>740322736You're a faggot who knows nothing but you're not wrong about those manuals. Most of them were written very late when the skills weren't relevant anymore, basically renaissance larpers. Some of the longsword manuals don't even include stabbing, which is hilariously retarded as a stab is the most effective attack.
>>740351590>with their shield*>>740352518>you physically cannot break someone's arm by hitting their shield. this is because the arm MOVES.Retard, this is precisely why I can in fact break the arm.>the shield lessens the impact by spreading it across a large area.You are thinking in terms of deformation by projectiles, I'm talking about the shield itself as a mechanical lever.
>>740356285you couldn't even bend your fork, fatty
>>740320870And they tell us bikini armor is unrealistic.
>>740320870Armor is always a balance of mobility and protection, along with what you can afford.If you're going to hide in the woods and count on surprising your enemy then yeah it may be worth it. If you're in open ground and arranged in mass formations then probably not
>shields are absolutely necessary to performing critical defensive techniques, so much so that using two handed weapons or dual wielding in serious encounters is something you only ever do in co-op or abusing bugsthat should do it
>>740323819Rome was constantly engulfed in civil wars and germans, despite the armor meme, were big, strong, and good at fightingRomans hired them to fight all the time
>>740347856I think it comes down to honor. In those days, there was no social media for people to be fake and at an each other in the back. So “fighting fair” was almost a way to form bonds with other men in a means to pass on one’s genes through comradery and victory. The winners would obviously get to breed the defeated and killeds women, so men just shared women I guess. There’s really nothing you could do except stab someone in the back when they aren’t looking or poison someone. Now enter today’s age where woman have ten men ready to fuck at any moment and you’ll never meet any of them. It’s just stupid and gay now and only rich(soft) men reproduce through purchasing pussy
>>740314056Wasnt dark souls created to very specifically adress your thread?
