What does the remake need besides non-linearity?
Malon sex minigame
>>740590082i don't like this cover art. it implies that the journey of the game only centered on these specific characters and the others are unimportant
>>740590234They are unimportant
>>740590082>What does the remake needExpanded areas. Seamless instead of cells obviously. More things to do in hyrule field, market town and kakariko. More NPCs, side quests and mini games. Other than that the story beats and every side quest pretty much needs to be the same.Thing is if they expand the areas they also need to expand the dungeons so that they feel larger relative to the explorable areas.
>>740590234Malon isn't important. Fuck off Malonfag
>>740590234The original western box was the best.
>>740590082It doesn't need anything.
>>740590721>Seamless instead of cells obviously.Not, that isn't obvious at all. The game honestly hugely benefits from having distinct, sectioned off areas, it's honestly much more immersive with how each area is completely free to present the impression it wants to without having to exactly represent the geometry of what you actually pass through and interact with. This makes the game world more abstract and larger feeling. It also makes it easier for the game to do things like have time pass differently in different areas, and prevent enemies and objects from being where they shouldn't.The game could however do with a 'better' representation of the geometry of other areas than the N64 was capable of, but the 3DS version already did a decent job with this for the most part, so that is basically guaranteed to be handled at least as well.
>linearity BADkill yourself
>>740590234Weird that a dumb horse is on the cover and not Saria or Malon.
You fuck the basic story structure up if you go entirely non-linear. If they want to shake it up, it needs to be like Echoes with dungeons coming in phases.>Deku Tree>Dodongo's / Jabu-Jabu>Forest / Fire / Water>Shadow / SpiritRemove some of the artificial barriers, and maybe make the Bow available outside the Forest Temple.
>>740590082non-existence
>>740590234it implies ganondorf lives in a nice castle and zelda takes residence in some sort of legion of doom citadel
>>740590082Dating mechanics
>>740591468>The game honestly hugely benefits from having distinct, sectioned off areasthe fuck it does
>>740591921Phases of dungeons would be great though, start the "deku tree" in lost woods, have it wind up dropping into the deku tree from high up in the tree tops. Fun surprises like that would wow old fans and new ones alike.
I preferred getting the items in the dungeons but at the same time I don't want them to be one use only
>>740590082OoT isn't even that linear you retarded BotWtranny.
>>740591921This is almost exactly how it works in the original game too, even if some of the non-linearity is very unintuitive. Logic and unused Navi tips for doing Jabu Jabu before Dodongo exist in the game data but got cut
>>740594379uh oh, ootsnoy meltdown
>>740591921We gonna get a better story that ties into the other games with references to Skyward Sword.
This board will implode tomorrow all because of this remake.
>>740596274Deserved.
>>740596274I hope to God there isn't a remake. I'm sick of zoomers trying to bastardize this game even further than the 3DS remaster did.
>>740596518lol boomers are so fucking weird, holy shit
>>740596518it will happen and it will be really funny to make fun of it
>>740596228Do we get Time Jannies?
>>740590082> non-linearityHow would you do this without making the dungeons even more simple? There is already wiggle room but letting you do say Spirit before any of the others means it can't use any dungeon item the others offer like the Bow.I think the best we can hope for is the grottos to be filled in with real content, Zora's Domain to be unfrozen when beating the temple, and a modern camera system. I don't expect the combat to change nor will they do crazy dungeon changes. LA never got that
>tfw Zelda has the same voice actress from botw
Honestly blending BotW's and OoTs design probably isn't as impossible as it seems, its a pretty open game with some chokepoints. Young Link would be like an expanded Great Plateau and then Adult Link's dungeons are the meat of the game that you can do in any order apart from Ganon's Castle
>>740596576It would be stupid not to.
>>740596897Except BOTW you get all the dungeon tools in the plateau. In OOT, dungeon tools from one dungeon are used in others or there are additional triggers.
So do you think they will release a special edition zelda theme switch 2?
>>740596897oot was already like this and you could do some dungeons in random orders, any more open than this and it would not work at all
>>740596691>How would you do this without making the dungeons even more simple?It's such an easy dilemma, the puzzles will be puzzles. They dont rely on any items rather than what you have obtained inside the dungeon.
>>740597020yesalthough i hope it will be OLED which is unlikely and i dread buying a LCD screen game console in fucking 2026 but i have to pull the trigger for OoT
>>740596518it's time to stop preteding 20fps gaming and low poly models are high quality gaming boomer tranny
>>740596897>Young Link would be like an expanded Great Plateau and then Adult Link's dungeons are the meat of the gameBingo
>>740597031how dull
>>740596518I'm not sure it holds up. It doesn't have analog camera, it runs at 240p resolution and average 20fps, there's hitching when you pause the game, saving quitting and resuming doesn't retain your position in the game, most puzzles involve block pushing or just shooting a switch, there's unskippable cutscenes every 30 seconds, the lock on bounces to enemies you dont intend it to, there's knee high fences you cannot vault over, there's inclines the horse refuses to move beyond, you have to play several songs and run back to the temple of time to transform between child and adult forms, rupees are completely worthless and seemingly the only reward you get for exploration, the dialogue options are redundant just forcing you to pick Yes, there's tons of things the game just doesn't explain, there's tons of things the game over explains, the map is useless, a lot of the only sidequests in the game are fetch quests, nonexistent swimming controls, arbitrary limitations between child and adult link items, the teleports between areas leave a lot to be desired, no faster movement mechanic for young link, the challenge is virtually nonexistent, there's a lot of backtracking for 100% completion, Navi gets stuck repeating the same info routinely, many items are just palette swaps or replacements with the same functionality, and there's no world building or character development.For its time like 30 years ago it must have been really impressive, however these days I can probably give it a 7/10. I would rather play basically any other game, at all, or in this franchise even.
>>740597031How do you design an entire dungeon around the fucking hammer from fire temple, which itself was shit in OOT? It had 3 rusted buttons to stomp but that was it.
>>740597165Not at all, it comes with brand new puzzles so you're not going through the motions of a game you played a dozen times. The opposite of dull if we're being honest here.
>>740597247>which itself was shit in OOT?Boy do I have news for you anon, this game isn't Ocarina of Time on the N64, it's actually a from the ground up remake. That hammer that had no utility before will finally have some.
>>740591921I would begin the game by sending Link to Hyrule Castle where Zelda and Impa give the objective of the three (potentially a new fourth?) dungeons. I honestly wouldn't mind if Navi were conceptualized as a more personable character, there's no need to stop the player to deliver dialogue anymore, she could just freely drop flavor text whenever.
>>740597104>>740597189Spare me your shitty bait kids. I'm taking the thread off my watch list and won't see it anyway.
>>740596992They'll just make it so that you only need the item you get in that specific dungeon to beat it, and then there will be optional content you can use the items for
>>740593701I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to explore more of the world or that the game couldn't take advantage of areas that you can see but can't currently go to, rather I'm advocating for the opposite and that this would make it easier to say, just add new sections to Castle Town with the player being none the wiser until they discover them. But having splits between scenes gives a ton of flexibility that you're probably not thinking about, allows the lighting model to change between scenes etc.
>>740591921You can already easily do Spirit before Fire and technically before Water.
>>740590082Trans girliesNon-binary KokiriDebra Wilson
>enemies in Hyrule field as an adult>Gerudo are untouched>Ruto ditches the flesh dress and goes topless again>Ice Arrows and Fire Arrows are more useful>progression remains linear overall, but certain dungeons are grouped together and can be done in any order (Dodongo's Cavern and Jabu Jabu, Forest/Fire/Water Temples, Shadow and Spirit Temples)>Ice Cave has a proper boss>wind-themed mini dungeon as a cheeky nod to the original plan for a Wind Sage and Temple>Temple of Light can be accessed outside of cutscenes, has a tough bonus dungeon inside>Water Temple is untouched aside from the Iron Boots getting the 3DS treatment>more tunic options>adult link can wear masks>clarification on how the "Hero Dies" timeline is even possible>one or two small references to Hylia for the sole purpose of riling up this board's Ocarinafags
>>740599067>Debra WilsonI'd be fine with her as a VA for a Gerudo if that ends up happening.
>>740596228OoT is a perfect, if simple, hero's journey story, add a bunch of extra complexity and it'll inevitably go to shit.
>>740599221>spoilerYou got me.The funny thing is, were it not for the absolutely shit story in Fujibayashi's games, I'd otherwise have been fine with having a 'forth goddess', as the N64 games seems to have quite a few hints towards it and a younger me would have gone apeshit in a good way to see that realized properly.
>>740598895>having splits between scenesgross
>>740599318yawn, make it better
>>740600686The original game is not gross
>>740590082It needs to be a remake of both OoT and MM together.
>>740600937While that would be awesome there is no way that's what will be happening.
>>740600781Every time you step into opaque black and the screen fades out it's really fucking gross.
>>740600937This, but it needs to be the full Ura Zelda vision and MM can be forgotten about.
>>740600937Hopefully it retcons the existence of mm. What a stupid game
>>740601428filtered Lemee guess:>the only reason I got a 20 instead of a 30 on my ACT was the time limit.
>>740601546Chores the video game
>>740601587But enough about BotW/TotK
OoT is non-linear after Forest Temple. Yeah you can get the bow then walk out but c'mon just finish the temple you're already halfway through.
>>740601754Best open world games in the business.
>>740601885>best turd nugget in the toilet bowl!
>>740601304I legit don't know why you'd say that. BotW's houses that don't feel like distinct interiors with their own contrasting atmosphere (with different music and camera behavior) are 'gross', in the sense of being not close to as immersive. OoT gets so much mileage out of having natural transitions, I'm telling you you'd miss them and what they add if they were just removes without any attempt to replicate what they did for the game.
>>740602030>BotW's houses that don't feel like distinct interiors with their own contrasting atmosphereI legit don't know why you'd say that
>>740602120Because compared to OoT's strong contrast between interior and outside they just don't. It's incredibly striking. WW is actually better at pulling this particular thing off than OoT is and I consider it the most meaningful way that that game is actually better
>>740602347>It's incredibly striking.no
>>740590082Camera controls.Modern aspect ratio.Make "no" the default option for repeating dialogue.Bonus stages that set up the 3 resulting timelines.Make the fairies pretty and more covered instead of looking like old crack addled street workers.
>>740602612>zoom-zoom can’t appreciate all the interior details of buildings that add character>needs houses that all have the same set of preloaded stock assets that be rendered in immediately cause NOW, NOW, NOW!>will still sit through the transition for shitty shrines that all have the same aesthetic and call them an “evolution of dungeons”
>>740590234>Three random skeletons are more important to the story than Saria, Malon, or Ruto
>>740596897it doesn't need to be blended
>>740590082It needs another dungeon during the kid era and two more in the adult era
>>740591223step aside
>>740599221>Forest/Fire/Water Temples, Shadow and Spirit TemplesThe original game is kind of like this once you become an adult.The Forest Temple must be done before the others because there are switches that require the bow and arrow.The Fire Temple can be done at any time between Forest and Shadow.The Water Temple can be done at any time after Forest, however the Ice Cavern is a prerequisite. The Ice Cavern can be done as soon as you become an adult, but it must be done before Water.The Shadow Temple requires the completion of the Forest, Fire, and Water temples to be accessed. The Bottom of the Well's dungeon item is practically required (Bottom of the Well can be accessed any time after Forest) unless you're very patient or knowledgeable.The Spirit Temple requires items from most prior dungeons, except the Shadow Temple.Only the Well, Shadow, and Ganon's Castle are hard gated by story sequences and not just dungeon items, and the Well's story sequence activates after Forest.
Better time mechanics and puzzles based around them.The ability to travel between timelines on the spot maybe after a couple of dungeons.They clearly wanted MM style time-based events in development (Why else did the gossip stone tell the time. Days were probably longer and were a timetracking system for that) More differences between past and future, and again puzzles between them. Past effects the future etc.Bring in the original URA vision and ideas, They said footprints on sand stayed there, do that etc. Bring in bigger ideas from that. Do what the game was originally intended to be on the 64DD before they had to gut it.
>>740610327>Better time mechanics and puzzles based around them.fuck>The ability to travel between timelines on the spot maybe after a couple of dungeons.off>They clearly wanted MM style time-based events in development (Why else did the gossip stone tell the time. Days were probably longer and were a timetracking system for that)tourist>More differences between past and future, and again puzzles between them. Past effects the future etc.redditor>Bring in the original URA vision and ideas, They said footprints on sand stayed there, do that etc. Bring in bigger ideas from that. Do what the game was originally intended to be on the 64DD before they had to gut it.twat
>>740610327>Better time mechanics and puzzles based around them.based>The ability to travel between timelines on the spot maybe after a couple of dungeons.based>They clearly wanted MM style time-based events in development (Why else did the gossip stone tell the time. Days were probably longer and were a timetracking system for that)based>More differences between past and future, and again puzzles between them. Past effects the future etc.based>Bring in the original URA vision and ideas, They said footprints on sand stayed there, do that etc. Bring in bigger ideas from that. Do what the game was originally intended to be on the 64DD before they had to gut it.basedsteprightupyoulegend
>>740610491So you just want the N64 version.Congrats because that's what you'll be getting because Nintendo know full well what purists its core fans are, like you.But consider this, what is the point? Nothing Nintendo do will top Ship of Harkinian. All they can really do is re-imagine the game if they want it to actually be worth something.
>>740590082It needs to increase the amount of actual dungeons and it needs to make combat not feel like shit. That is basically all it really needs, but I would like for the size of the world to be increased too.
>>740602841>will still sit through the transition for shitty shrines that all have the same aesthetic and call them an “evolution of dungeons”No one said this
>>740610967I will say this, if they make the overworld bigger, I would be fine with the skulltulas becoming contained 100+ "Shrines". Providing they are just built seamlessly into the land, are varied and provide flavor lore and a few extra puzzles for the reward.
>>740611254They should just be placed in caves replacing the bubbul frogs.
>>740591589>linearity BADCorrect.
>>740611381based
>>740611381>braindead masses GOODFalse.
>>740611345Some, sure like in Death Mountain etc, but it would be nice if there was some fun stuff, like a ruined Old Shiekah house in Kakariko, or a couple in the Castle itself, old ruins etc. Just some stuff lying around to add intrigue to the land of Hyrule.
>>740611381If BotW had been just a Wii U game as intended it would have sold in line with the rest of the series and been praised nowhere near as highly. It's the Switch that sold it, like it did a lot of other franchises, such as AC, regardless of whether the game was shit or not.
>>740596274I'm just curious how hard Aonuma will fuck it up. Zelda is nothing without Koizumi.
>>740611583>It's the Switch that sold itother way around, it's BotW that sold the Switch.BotW had a higher than 100% attachment rate when the Switch launched.
>>740596274>this remakeThere's zero proof one exists.
>>740611750Because people wanted a switch, it was sold out, and that was literally the only real game for it.
>>740611892>Because people wanted a switchand they wanted a Switch to play....come on anon, you can solve this one!
>>740611381Progression? Overcoming challenges you aren't better off just walking around? A real story? Nah, just gimme that bloated, worthless copy paste filler out the ass walking sim, baby.
>>740611849The guy who said starfox and other already confirmed things did.It's like 99.9% this is also true.
>>740611916The switch2 sold in droves when it had fuck all to play dude. People will just go out and buy the new shiny like goycattle.
>>740612084Switch 2 sold well because it's a more powerful Switch and that's what a lot of consumers clearly want. Switch 1, however, had to sell based on games alone (namely its launch title BotW) as it released hot off the steaming dump that was the Wii U. People bought a Switch for BotW, the sales metrics prove this.
>>740611712Pretty damn clear at this point Koizumi was the one who understood that fantasy adventures should have some grit and not be afraid to be odd. Aonuma/Fujibayashi Zelda is just too damn sanitized.
>>740612214They bought it because it was the only handheld first and foremost. Do you think if botw was stuck on the wii u it would have sold anywhere remotely near those numbers?
>>740590082Built in rando so normies can enjoy it too.
>>740612387>Do you think if botw was stuck on the wii u it would have sold anywhere remotely near those numbers?Yes, genuinely. It will have been dumb to leave it shackled to the Wii U, but it absolutely will have sold on there as by far the best-selling Wii U title no question.
>>740611381>impossible to refute argumentlinearitybros, how do we cope...
>>740611712>Aonuma will fuck it upI'm expecting either that, or it just being another straight, mostly graphical overhaul.
>>740612507Extreme doubt. It would not have outsold MK8, which sold 8.5 million on the wii u and then went on to sell 62 million on the switch.
>>740612387>Do you think if botw was stuck on the wii u it would have sold anywhere remotely near those numbers?If it released no late than June 2016 (which it could have if they didn't cut GamePad features and make the Switch port), it would have sold at least 5 million on more Wii Us.Still not great for Nintendo.
>>740590082The only thing this game needs to be modernized is an actual world map and a skip cutscene button
>>740612660The chart posted earlier shows BotW when it had sold ~20mil+, I'm saying BotW as a Wii U exclusive could have absolutely done numbers well above 15mil if not 20mil+ It literally would've sold Wii U systems singlehandedly.
>>740590082Make it so the map is open world, as in no intermissions between areas when moving from Hyrule field to any of the other areas. an option to run would be nice also so that I dont have to be constantly rolling around.
>>740612770I would say it would have been lucky to get close to that 8.5. Would it haev sold more wii u's? Absolutely. A few million more, probably. But nowhere even remotely close to what the switch gave it.
>>740612937Assuming they marketed it in a similar fashion, it will easily have sold 15mil+ as by far the best-selling Wii U title. You cannot convince me otherwise. The hype for BotW was astronomically high following E3 2016
>>740612507It would have sold better on the wiiu if there were no switch version, but if you genuinely believe it would have sold switch numbers you're retarded.The switch version of the game literally outsold wiiu game systems.They knew the wiiu was the walking dead by the time the game released, releasing it on the wiiu was just throwing wiiu owners one last bone before lowering the casket.
>>740613053>but if you genuinely believe it would have sold switch numbers you're retarded.I did not say that. Read the reply chain again.
>game is a straight OoT port up until the very end>then there's a scripted defeat to Ganon, tying into the failure timeline>now it's a completely different game where you switch between playing as Zelda and the sagesThey would never do it but imagine getting a surprise second half to the game with completely different character mechanics.
>>740612770If you've been around consoles long enough you start learning hardware sells the software. If people don't want the hardware, games have to work way, way harder to make up for that. If people want the hardware, they'll pick up more games just to use it.
>>740612387People were lining up constantly to play more of BOTW back when the Switch wasnt even known of, this game would have sold millions regardless.
>>740613165>hardware sells the softwareit's literally the other way around but OK.
>>740613036The hype for tp was astronomical. 8.8 got death threats and became a meme. It sold 9 million.To think botw would outsell mk just isn't reasonable, especially since we have direct sales for the two.
>>740590721>Seamless instead of cells obviously.I disagree. This has never been executed well in a video game and it won't start now. Entering Hyrule Market actually felt like you entered a town. When you enter a store, it felt like you went inside of a building. When you entered a town or building in BotW, you're just in the same overworld. BotW Areas which are technically massive compared to OoT feel tiny.Every open world game has this problem. That's why they always have boring stories about how everyone has to live in tiny settlements and the whole world is uninhabitable. Cut the shit. It's okay to have some building in the background you can't get to. It's okay if the transition from one area to the next isn't seamless. You actually make worlds feel larger this way, despite devs thinking it does the opposite.
>>740608451nah, the other one is better
>>740590082I hope it has Master Quest, a boss rush mode, maybe an extra dungeon like the TP one, and maybe dont have the game end after the world has been saved.
>>740613272>. It sold 9 million.and BotW blew it out the water
>>740590147fpbp
>>740611556I read your entire reply chain you are aware the person you're arguing with is not only plainly arguing in bad faith but they aren't even making arguments Oh uh also I love Kass
>>740613227That's what people like to think. It's what sounds reasonable and software certainly does help hardware sales. But if you've been around long enough, you start to see games that languished on one system go on to sell gangbuster or receive longstanding critical acclaim despite originally being on a system nobody wanted or bought them for. Once they're on hardware people actually want, the situation for them flips.
>>740611583>If BotW had been just a Wii U game as intended it would have sold in line with the rest of the series and been praised nowhere near as highlyHoly cope
>>740590147Thread should have ended here.
>>740613386Don't butt in if you don't even know what's being said.
>>740611556>like a ruined Old Shiekah house in Kakarikoover top the well as a child
>>740613558To cope is to think otherwise, unless you want to try and claim it would have singlehandedly sold 20 million wii u's and outsold MK8 and still not sold as well as on the switch. Reminder that the n64 was a flop despite having the two best zelda games on it, one of which is the highest rated game of all time.
>>740611892>Because people wanted a switch, it was sold outto play Botw, they bought Botw first and waited for the Switch
>>740612894good picks
>>740613528Nah, you're looking at it the wrong way. What truly matters is the early momentum of game releases for a new platform. The Wii U failed to deliver a strong lineup in its launch year, while the Switch succeeded immediately to at drawing in consumers. Same case with the Gamecube and the Wii (relevant below)>>740613607I know exactly what you're trying to say but all you did is shoot yourself in the foot with the TP comparison.Both BotW and TP>had high hype levels>were crossplatform releases>released on the tail-end of "failing" hardware>released on launch with super popular hardwareand yet BotW absolutely blew TP out of the water in sales, not just total sales but also in terms of attachment rate too.
>>740613274>I disagree. This has never been executed well in a video gamelol
>>740613329>I hope it has Master QuestIt will be in-built into the game, if you return to a dungeon it will be different than before.
>>740613913The switch itself was novel with excellent marketing and people were hyped for it. It played an undeniably massive factor in game sales.
>>740591223>>740608451MOGGED by JAP version
>Read thread>BotW critics are reasonable and engaging in good faith discussions and demonstrate a strong understanding >BotW defenders just scream cope, BotW won, best sales, and the usual things people say when they have no argument nor informed understanding of what exactly BotW did to the series nor how the design philosophies of Fujibayashi are significantly less compatible with pre-botw Zelda's brand identity even if they're more popular, especially compared to Koizumi's. At best, they're defending it to troll, at worst, theyre defending it because this specific games superiority in popular metrics is attached to their identity.This place hasn't changed in a decade.
>>740611381Yeah man I'm sooooo glad about all those heckin sales that brought so many desirable non-Zelda fans into the series.
>>740590082It needs body types
>>740590082I just hope it's not giga faithfull on every level. The OG already exists and there's even the 3ds version if you can't apreciate the soul of early n64 graphics. A 1 to 1 remake would be pointless.
>>740590082Fuck off open world trannies.
>>740614002This is true, and maybe if the Wii U's marketing was half decent things would've gone differently, but that doesn't invalidate what I said regarding the importance of strong launch titles. Competitive hardware alone doesn't sell, the GameCube proved this. Games with wide appeal are what sell, the Wii and Switch proved this with their launch software lineup being so strong.>>740614147Reply to me directly you fucking faggot coward
>>740614109>irl fire jpglmao no
>>740613768>To cope is to think otherwiseYup that's why Skyward sword on the Switch sold just as much as Botw, oh wait...
will it include a hard mode or master quest?
>>740614109nah that's ugly as fuck
>>740614217Why do you care what twitter says?
OoT with Twilight Princess’ sword arts BUT the enemies are actually aggressive and dynamic to encourage using them, that’d be cool. Like the most basic grunt-tier enemy should at the very least be Dinolfos level (TP Dinolfos where they had the shields), not counting stuff like Deku Babas, skulltulas and all that. Just humanoid stuff.
>>740613913TP was the prior best selling zelda game. The point is relativity. In no reality was zelda going to outsell mk. To say botw would have singlehandedly saved the wii u is just wishful thinking when mario couldn't.
>>740611381Sales=/=quality. Unless you're gonna try and tell me shit like CoD is good and hasn't killed shooters. Or generic brown and bloom shit helped modernize gaming and introduced new ideas that helped expand gaming beyond staying the same, which is exactly whats happened. Sales do not matter because there is more gullible nongamers in gaming now that will buy on marketing and hype alone and will disregard quality. These are the same "Gamers' you see on steam, that have bought the "new popular thing" played it 1 hour, then put it down forever.Sales mean nothing.
>>740614264we already have darunia and talon. Honestly Idk if straight chub chasers have even a single option in oot.
>>740590082Actual mechanics and physics. Areas that aren't flat and boring and have exploration. Puzzles and dungeons that aren't shitty lock and key puzzle item checks. Combat that isn't a joke. Bosses that aren't built around just getting stunned with your new tool. No Navi. Sode characters that aren't cardboard cutouts for exposition dumping. Actual puzzles built on the time travel mechanic. Not needing to go to the temple every time you want to swap time periods.
>>740614367SS released when the wii hype had ended and the system was all but dead. The wii was carried hard by ultra casuals and your grandmother.
Dodongo dislikes smoke.
>>740614437Because I care about what kind of fans are coming into my goddamn series. Fuck you.
>>740614480>To say botw would have singlehandedly saved the wii uI do not believe it would've "saved" the Wii U at all, I only believe that it will have been the best-selling Wii U game as a system-seller had it remained Wii U exclusive. Other Wii U games (including MK8) will have boosted sales as a result too in this hypothetical scenario, so I'm not even arguing that MK8 will have remained at 8.5mil, of course it would've sold more if people were purchasing Wii U's to exclusively play BotW. Of course I am assuming that Nintendo would be marketing BotW properly, as its marketing push was very strong.I think you are underestimating just how big of a game BotW is to the casual market too.
>>740614315I can't think of a single launch title for the ds yet it sold 155 million units. People wanted the novelty of the system itself, same with the wii and switch.
>>740614315Okay.I think the market conditions for the switch allowed it to succeed where it would have otherwise been held back by the Wii U due to the low install rate.I think that people BotW chased trends but, again, social and market conditions heavily rewarded chasing that specific trend, and that was the key factor in it having the best sales of the series. I think an ambitious skeleton of a genuinely great open world immersive sim exists in BotW but it wouldn't have sold and better or worse if the game was made better or worse. ToTK is utter dog shit but considering that game journalists gave it free 10/10's for little justifiable reasons and the switch 1/2 also have massive install bases, it is the 2nd best selling as a result.Finally, these games fundamentally have different design philosophies from the previous titles, Fujibayashi and Koizumi actually should have switched places because putting the theater kid on Mario and the toy box kid on Zelda was the dumbest thing these games ever did. It made both of them feel fresh and new yet not capable of truly shining because the people with the wrong skills were put on the wrong tasks.
>>740614630>SS released when the wii hypeYep that's why SS on wii sold as much as Botw did on switch
>>740590082I don't actually think it exists. Just sounds like one of those rumours that rumour-mill people spin out of nothing just to generate clicks. But I also don't get why people want it to exist. OoT already exists. Is already playable. And is already great. And if you want them to change the game. Then why not just make a new game?
>>740614456Agreed BUT keep the core sword swinging close to OoT. The regular moment-to-moment sword swinging in TP felt like dogshit, because they didn't properly adjust the animations or scale of shit when they used WW's engine and pivoted towards much less stylized proportions.
>>740614804Also I love Kass
>>740614743>Because I care about what kind of fans are coming into my goddamn seriesWhy?
>>740590082Can’t wait to play it on Switch 3 when it’s functional
>>740613981that would be fantastic actually I kind of like that
>>740614850Just like the switch 2 version of botw is selling as much as the switch version and didn't immediately disappear from sales charts
>>740614502>Sales=/=qualitySales = people want to play your game because it's good.
>>740614920I'd recommend reading this essay as it illustrates the importance of healthy gatekeeping.https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths
>>740614920Same reason countries importing infinity indians is a terrible idea if you're not in political/financial power.
>>740614854It used to be just a rumor, but now it's a confirmed leak.
>>740614802SM64 DS, MK DS wasn't long after too iirc>>740614804>I think that people BotW chased trends but, again, social and market conditions heavily rewarded chasing that specific trend, and that was the key factor in it having the best sales of the series.So, what, you agree with me that it will have sold incredibly well based on the game's reception alone?
>>740615018Galaxy Gas sold a lot because it was popular. Does that mean it was good?
>>740615018A pirate cannot process that.
>>740615018Popularity as a metric for quality is historically and consistently a bell curve, where the most popular media trends towards the average but the next most popular trends towards either bad or exceptional. It's genuinely never a great argument because the truth is that most people do not engage seriously with most things they consume, simply because their passions are reserved elsewhere, usually on, well, niche things.The healthiest community is one with a deeply vested interest in the cultural identity of the work itself as expressed by the work itself. For better and worse, BotW completely upended that.
>>74061500830+ million people already played botw already whereas barely anyone even played the original SS back on the wii. And the ones that did play it didn't really like it.
>>740615018The Last Jedi did well at the box office, but ended up being the downfall of the Star Wars IP in the long term.
>>740614772I'm not underestimating it, I think you're underestimating mk, mario, and the innate appeal of hardware, that's all. It's numbers would be relative to how well mk8 did before and after the switch. That is to say around 7x less, give or take a bit.
>>740599318>OoT is a perfect
>>740615102>but now it's a confirmed leakYeah. No. I don't believe it. >b-b-but natehate got the direct date right! Yeah. And even so he has gotten tons of shit wrong in the past. I am not saying it's impossible. But it really doesn't sound like a Nintendo-move to me. Not only has OoT already been remade. Under careful observation. When they did the 3DS remake. But even that remake was done to showcase the gimmick of the 3DS hardware and would have likely not even existed otherwise. What's the excuse to remake the game yet again, after they've already done it before? They'll just fuck it up and tarnish the reputation of one of their most legendary games.
>>740615163>Does that mean it was good?
>>740615286>Popularity as a metric for quality is historically and consistently a bell curveComplete word salad. Name the other contemporary playwrights as good as the uber popular Shakespeare.
>>740615319MK8 is not a system-seller title. I do not believe any mariokart game to be, not even World in spite of what you may infer from sales data (it was a bundled game after all). They are games people pick up if they are buying a system anyway for some other game(s). BotW was absolutely a system-seller title that millions would go out of their way to purchase a brand new system just to experience it (the 100%+ attachment rate undisputably proved this) and it didn't even need to be a bundled game to achieve it.
>>740590234shut up you autistic retard
>>740615286I think it was a good thing that BOTW upended that, strictly because most of the 3D Zelda games spent most of their time chasing OoT's shadow and never being nearly as good, whereas BOTW doing its own new thing while sticking to what makes Zelda Zelda, really helped it strive forward
>>740597730Deluded nostalgiafag kek
>>740615305>but ended up being the downfall of the Star Wars IP in the long term>rise of skywalker>han solo movie>Mandalorian>Kenobi series>andor series>ahsoka series>fallen order>jedi survivorWow what a "downfall".
>>740615118Well, no. Because you can't just remove market conditions and leave a vacuum. With none of those conditions in place the game would have sold for nothing, like any other game.I just the quality of a game based on how it achieved its own internal goals. Selling well is the primary concern of the board room executive but the secondary concern of the creator. I believe BotW does not achieve the same level of greatness as something like OoT or MM in terms of achieving its own goals, but I do think it is still good, like 7-8/10, which is the minimum threshold for anything to actually be popular.
740590082Troll thread just fyi.Don't feed the niggers
>>740615849I don't really care how you personally rate the games, it has no relevance at all to what I was discussing
>>740615869pussy
>>740615018>because it's good.That's where you're dead wrong.
>>740615849>I believe BotW does not achieve the same level of greatness as something like OoT or MM in terms of achieving its own goalsIt seems to have done that though, overwhelmingly so.
>>740615801>literally all shit, but carried purely because brand popularitylolnta btw
>>740596992And? You can give the player general purpose tools at the start like BotW or TotK does.Then dungeons give more focused ones. Like clawshots or a hammer. Or whip. Etc.The two styles can be merged easily as one. Anyone disagreeing is just a twat looking to argue.Can even keep the various weapon types BotW uses. Just make the pathing fixed and found via over world chests or side quests. And no breaking. Then you can build out move sets so combat is closer to TP.This isn't hard to do.
>>740590082If they censor the dead hand living in the well it's a DOA game as far as I'm concerned.
>>740615709>while sticking to what makes Zelda ZeldaMany Zelda fans would disagree. It and SS are polar opposites on the Zelda spectrum to the detriment of Zelda. One could easily argue BotW is only Zelda-like on the plateau and the rest could have easily been another I/p entirely.
>>740615801are you brown?
>>740615709I think this narrative is deeply unfair to the 3d Zelda series as a whole because OoT's only true superior, Majora's Mask, was made by someone who is perfectly fit for the series, but then was never allowed to make a Zelda game again. Aonuma is deeply vindictive of Koizumi's design philosophy for Zelda even though Aonuma is largely responsible for the series being formulaic, and Fujibayashi was given creative freedom that Koizumi was only ever allowed for an extremely stressful one year development cycle and STILL made a game more meaningfully compelling than Fujibayashi ever did.>>740615585It's not word salad, get off 4chan and finish your highschool English class.>>740616039If you believe the value of a work of art is determined by sales metrics, sure, but that means that all BotW had to do was to be a good game at the bare minimum, and good market conditions allowed for the rest. I think BotW succeeded at being a good but not a great game.>>740615896Oh, then what are you discussing, exactly? That BotW has the most sales? Because that's a fact nobody can dispute, not a discussion.
>>740616237>Many Zelda fans would disagree.they would be wrong to do so,
>>740616347>Oh, then what are you discussing, exactly?That BotW would still have sold very well (15mil+) if it remained Wii U exclusive.
>>740616347The other playwrights during the era of Shakespeare, he was popular? maybe don't talk about highschool English class if you're this ignorant.
>>740616405They would be right. Even ER is more akin to the original LoZ than BotW is.
>>740602841>nigger tits is STILL trying to argue shrines are dungeons 8 years later.Develop better bait.
I'm extremely curious to see what Nintendo will drop tomorrow with this remakeIf it's just 3DS Ocarina of Time in shiny graphics it will be a massive waste of my time.Sadly, this one is the most likely to happen as it is the safest one, laziest one and the one that will sell the most get the best scores too thanks to nostalgiafags. Everything points to this. Path of least resistance and all that.If they do change things I will be extremely impressed as this is the same as acknowledging that Ocarina of Time does have issues and does not hold up to today's standards.Will they mix up with Breath of the Wilds/Tears of the Kingdom and get a new formula template for the series moving forward?
>>740616486They would be dead wrong actually. Botw is open world Zelda.
>>740616447Oh, then you're just objectively wrong. The Wii U didn't even sell 15mil+, you think the market conditions favored an End-of-Life-nearing release of an underperforming console? Even if BotW was Majora's Mask-level good it wouldn't have sold nearly as well.
>>740616447Absolutely not. 8 tops.
>>740616347You're the one stuck on a game being popular. It's hilarious you want to thump artistic value when Breath of the Wild is lost on you.
>WE ARE ELITE SALES CAPITAL SAARSalesfagging BotW fanboys are the jeets of Nintendo.
Why the fuck are botwfags even in this thread? Is this remake that fucked that people are expecting oot to get ubislopped?
>>740612084>seething snoygger reveals himselfTo no one's shock.Reminder that spkatoon did 5mil on the wiiu.Eat your dicks and crow.>>740612387Mario kart 8 sold 7-8mil.That's a 60-70% attach rate.Spkatoon did 5mil that's over 30%Smash4 did at least 3mil.Etc.Yes BotW woukd have hit 5-7mil on the Wiiu if there was no Switch.Cope.
>>740616609>>740616620>The Wii U didn't even sell 15mil+It will have sold more systems based on BotW alone being such a strong system-seller that it catapulted the Switch's success. Do I believe BotW will have "saved" the Wii U? No. Like you said, the system was already EoL. However, assuming they would've marketed BotW with a similar marketing campaign than they had for the BotW Switch marketing push, I firmly believe it will have sold very high numbers for the Wii U and likely will have become the Wii U's best-selling title. It is several orders of magnitude more popular than every other Zelda game.
>>740615849>7-8/10, which is the minimum threshold for anything to actually be popular.I would disagree with this. Plenty of absolute trash is popular for one reason or another. You could look at pokemon, the mario movies, acnh, etc. for that.
>>740616828>>WE ARE ELITE SALES CAPITAL SAARThe Switch isn't even available in India anon.
>>740616887>Yes BotW woukd have hit 5-7mil on the Wiiu if there was no Switch.That is literally what I've been arguing. The other anon was saying it would get closer to switch numbers.
>>740617092It's about to be.
>>740616887>>seething snoygger reveals himselfCan you not?
>>740616486ER has no tools for puzzle solving and environmental interaction to progress, so no.
>>740614109I bought a jap boxed copy at Megacon just for the art.
The modern Resident Evil remakes prove that Zelda can be linear with traditional puzzles/dungeons and still be hugely successful.They're among the best selling games out there. They brought the series back to life, and they've stayed true to the original games in terms of puzzles and item-gating progress.
>>740617223Play the original LoZ. ER has about as many puzzles as that game does, which is to say very few.
>>740616649I am well aware of BotW's beauty, I said it was a good game after all, just not one that I think was as good as it could have been. Aesthetically, the game rivals Shadow of the Colossus at times, but the game is not a collection of beautiful environments to explore, it is a series of peaks (like the image you posted) and valleys (repetitive and tedious quests, content like korok seeds, shrines and fast travel breaking the pacing, poor balance and enemy AI, etc)It's very easy to fall in love with BotW, if I were to judge BotW based on my love for Kass Id give it a 10^9999999999999999/10 but I don't think the goal of the game was necessarily to make me fall in love with Kass so deeply that it completely changes my life.>>740617024A lot of things you consider "trash" are achieving their own internal goals and meeting the average persons level of familiarity with the medium where they're at. Though to be fair, you're right that it might be closer to 5/10 as a minimum threshold especially when considering children's media. Parents tend not to care for the quality of the work their children consume, I guess.
>>740617296I've played it over a dozen times. What does ER have comparable to buying a lantern that can burn down trees that you use to uncover hidden areas and one story dungeon? Don't speak in blanket statements or try to diminish the importance of that. Give a direct answer.
>>740614217Is this an actual problem amongst zelda fans? I don't really even see people bring this up
>>740617375Things can also be so terrible it unintentionally becomes "good". There are a lot of factors that go into popularity and something as subjective and fickle as "good" is a bad way of explaining it.
>>740617375You should draw Kass in the /v/ or /vg/ drawpile, you were starting to get good at art but I haven't seen any of it lately.
>>740617410Hidden walls and hinted at secret areas.
>>740617594And which hidden walls require specific tools for specific interactions as opposed to just hitting with literally any weapon? LoZ had walls that needed to be bombed, and trees/bushes that needed to be burned.
>>740615801>but look at all this other rancid shitass they smeared on the carpet and lost money on afterwards
>>740613558Botw and ironically moreso totk would have been objectively better as wii u exclusives because the gamepad fixes their biggest flaws
>>740617410ER and LoZ both have a massive focus on combat, are vague as hell, have a structured open world that demands progression, a huge part of the game is exploring the world for meaty dungeons, have very difficult to find secrets, etc.
>>740591223Whoever came up with the idea to make that brown be the unofficial color of OOT is a genius because it somehow fucking works
>>740617523Ehhh, I don't really think stuff like The Room or Troll 2 ever achieves mainstream popularity, "so bad it's good" is kind of a uniquely niche experience and requires a level of familiarity with mediums that most people don't have. Children's media can be just terrible because children have cultivated zero taste.>>740617532I appreciate that. I've had a several months long art block/burnout, I don't really know why. I have a lot of ideas for drawing Kass but I can never sit down and actually work on them for some reason. Plus the few times I do try to draw I've regressed extremely from lack of practice. I need to really get back to it sooner than later.
>>740617780Neither have any real focus on puzzles as well. Puzzles came later in the Zelda series.
>>740617780>have a structured open world that demands progressionYou're a retard who thinks by abstracting the word progression, you can get away with lying. LoZ has progression by using tools to solve environmental navigation challenges. ER let's you sprint through everything, kill one boss and then access the late game area. Tools that interact with the environment are what gave LoZ its identity. You being mad at BotW and wanting to bastardize the word progression won't change that.
>>740617293capcom isnt as souless as nintendo nowadays. Their whole focus to sell more is to expand their IP using games. Nintendo rather do this using shit like movies. Nintendo fans are now filled with casual newfags since wii like the kass poster ITT. He loves that character so much so of course he will go to great lengths to defend his game. All nintendo newfags are deranged like him. So basically what i'm saying is don't expect 1:1 oot.
>>740617960>>You're a retard who thinks by abstracting the word progression, you can get away with lying.Stopped reading there. Fuck off.
>>740617840At the bare minimum you're free to just hang out in them. I'm very chatty if you happen to catch me.
>>740618131>stopped reading when you called me out because I know that I can't actually argue mechanics and design since I didn't get into Zelda until long after LoZ and never played or cared about it and am just mad that some people like LoZ and BotWI know.
>>740618030?The kass poster just likes kass. He criticizes botw and is saying oot and mm are better.
>>740618279Anyone can read a chain, eat shit, you're among the most obnoxious kind of poster
A reward for finding all the Skulltullas that isn’t fucking garbage
>>740618367>Anyone can read a chainAnd yet instead of reading and replying to what I said about specific mechanics, you got mad that I called you out. Nothing's more obnoxious than a retarded fanboy pretending to be an oldfag that clearly doesn't know anything about the games in question. BotW making you mad won't make your made up nonsense about LoZ being like ER true.
>>740618478The reward is good and you save a family. The problem is you need more things to use rupees on.
>>740617375>I am well aware of BotW's beautyI accept your concession.
>we've entered the "Botw isn't Zelda but Elden Ring is Zelda" erathat's really fake and gay
>>740617819it's not just plain brown, it's lightly metallic. it's more like bronze than brown.the collectors edition oot box is straight up just golden.
>>740615018why are dumbfuck jeets like this?Are you unironically retarded? troglodyte stupid dumbfuck
>>740617960>and wanting to bastardize the word progression won't change that.>he says defending a game you can beat in 30 minutes while trying to criticize er for something similar despite it being vastly harder to doretard
>>740618542You are so desperately disingenuous it's kind of funny.
>>740618694>what do you do during those 30 minutes?>well you uhhh progress through the four shrines and glide away from the plateau>on your paraglider dungeon item>with your four sheika abilities that you use to progress through the game world
>>740618694And takes vastly longer. He's desperate.
>>740618896git gud
>>740618694>progression means how long it takes to beat the game and not how your character progressesIf all you do is get stronger in terms of combat, then it's not Zelda. Using tools that interact woth the world is literally what sets Zelda apart.>>740618787Whenever you're ready to talk about actual game mechanics and not cry like a faggot redditor who grew up with OoT and hates BotW, the thread will be here. Until then, stop pretending you've played LoZ.
>>740618868Hence why the plateau is the only real zelda like structure of botw.
BotW is trashIt will always be trashOoT will always be goated.This is not a hot take.
>>740618934OoT is better than BotW and far more of a real Zelda game. Seethe and cope.
>>740618960Tiny taste of the pure Zelda experience outside it.taps sign >>740616649
>>740616347>Majora's mask>OoT's only true superiorI love Majora's Mask to death, I dont think its nearly as good or as complete as Ocarina. Especially because I love exploring in the Zelda games and MM pressures you the player to keep on progressing forward with the game's story.
>>740619047It was in 1998.
>>740618991The adults are talking Timmy, not now
>>740618559I conceded nothing, I always said it was a good game, just not a great one.>>740618285Older Zelda fans operate under the framework that their specific favorite game is the true identity of the series and based on that value, BotW is an abject failure of a game if you're a fan of OoT, but I don't think that's fair to BotW either. My opinion on the game tends to be polarizing because people who love it think I'm too critical and people who hate it think I'm too charitable.
>>740618926Going straight to ganon from the plateau and beating the blights, then calamity ganon, is only about as difficult as the average dark souls boss. That guy trying to claim is anywhere near as quick and easy is flat out wrong and he was trying to use such an argument to attack er while botw is a far, far worse offender.
>>740619241You fully conceded, it's a work of art and a brilliant game.
>botwfags shitting up an oot thread, shitting on oot and hoping they screw it overGod I hate you parasites
https://youtu.be/F9ohCKS_LUM
>>740619276>That guy trying to claim is anywhere near as quick and easy*in er
>>740619387>Ootfags will never admit that their game is not that good>ootfags will look at valid complaints like these >>740597189 and just pretend they are not issues due to their own nostalgia>their perfect childhood gem can't possible have issues>"you are the issue!" proclaims the ootfagSad!
>>740619195I think one of the most clever things Majora's Mask did with its ludonarrative is rewarding it's player with understanding it's themes by providing them a greater dimension or exploration than OoT. Once you accept the timers existence and don't let it bother you, even if it exists to intentionally make you uneasy and anxious, you realize that the time system itself allows exploring the same areas to offer different outcomes based on choices you made during the cycle. It's for this reason I see it as superior and more fully realized than OoT, which is an extremely challenging thing to do.The thing about MM and BotW/ToTK is that both games attempt to lightly adopt game design conventions of immersive sims, without being too complex that it'd completely overwhelm unfamiliar players. I think MM utilized those ideas to the games strength and BotW's is comparatively undercooked due to how thin they already themselves with the games size.
ToTK did a lot right too, I for one like that its nowhere near as easy to get to Ganon when starting ToTK as it is for BOTW, beating the minion waves, the boss gauntlet, Shadow Ganon and Ganon all at once is genuinely gruesome
>>740619608Oot isn't perfect. Botw sure as fuck isn't as well.
>>740590082more femboys
>>740619678BotW/TotK do more right than wrongs, therefore making it objectively a better game
>>740597189>>740619608I think it's deeply unfair to judge a game outside of the historical context in which it was created and by doing so you could argue anything older than the modern era "bad." Of course, this argument falls apart once you talk to literally anyone who studies humanities or history.
>>740619624So what youre saying is, if BOTW made use of the idea that the world was under a time limit until Ganon being free from Zelda's restraints, it would have been better?I dont think I would mind a minion apocalypse during Blood Moons
>>740590147
>>740619159You can keep the bloated to hell copy pasted filler, thanks.
Sony Derangement Syndrome broke Nintendofags.
>>740619760OOT objectively does more right than wrong compared to BOTW/TOTK, but this is at least partly due to those games being much more massive in scale and content
>>740619047At least you stopped pretending to give a shit about LoZ and what a real Zelda game is.
>>740619776>Of course, this argument falls apart once you talk to literally anyone who studies humanities or history.Videogames are art therefore you're wrong.>I think it's deeply unfair to judge a game outside of the historical context in which it was created and by doing so you could argue anything older than the modern era "bad."Since videogames are art, some older movies just like video games still hold up to this day.OoT is not the case, throwing excuses is not valid.
>>740619387>hoping they screw it overI hope they turn it into a good video game with actual mechanics and exploration.
What's wrong with linearity anyway?
>>740611381>TP sold more than OOThuh, I never knew that before. Also surprised to see MM so low
>>740620007good mechanics and exploration is when I don't have to play the gay dungeons and go right to the final boss so I can get the game over and done with ASAP to talk about it online
>>740620058there is such a thing as too much linearity, but OOT has no such thing and BOTWfags are allergic to Zelda games imposing any limitations whatsoever on the player at any point in the gamet. someone who thinks TOTK and OOT/MM are both peak Zelda in different ways
>>740620058Takes away player's agency in the game a very important factor in an interactive medium
>>740620285And how does OOT do that?
>>740620254I should be able to fight Ganondorf in his gay horse in the middle of Hyrule before he chases Zelda and end the game there yes.
>>740620254>everything optional in games is pointlessThat's cool, but BotW could have made every divine beast and the master sword mandatory and my experience with it wouldn't have changed at all.
>>740620378>Do it in this order and my way
>>740619798I don't think BotW would have had better exploration if it did that, the reason why MM was so small in comparison to OoT is due to developer crunch and the time system requiring heavier density of content to be meaningful.I think BotW should have played more into its strengths and less into its weaknesses to be a truly great game, so basically the opposite of what ToTK did.Okay, that was a bit vague and nebulous, but Shrine quests are a good example of something I think is genuinely flawed about the game. They're glorified grottos, aesthetically monotonous, break the pacing of the game through introducing way too many fast travel points while also grinding the game to a halt to load in a puzzle that ranges from baby tier to decent, for a consistent reward. Less of these would leave development time to focus on making the good things better, such as:The survival mechanics, the gameplay loop and challenge heavily revolves around solving environmental puzzles in its over world with limited resources which allows for the open-ended puzzle design to have the necessary friction to force the player to experiment with solutions instead of solving things with the same problem.Eventide island is often considered the best part of the game because it strips the player back to their bare essentials. If they balanced this aspect of the game better, the game would be consistently engaging across it's entire runtime.Would OoT fans like it more? Probably not but it would justify its existence as a game a lot more if it did these things well.>>740619948Half of the critiques you listed of OoT are not applicable to the PC port, if we're allowing it to be judged by modern conventions. Some works hold up because they were ahead of their time. OoT isn't as much, to be fair, but that doesn't make it bad.
>>740620502>dungeon puzzles can now be designed with the guarantee that the player will have certain itemsand this is bad how?
>>740590082Malon and Anju sex mini games.
>>740619608It's baffling they act like it's perfect.
>>740620381>>740620502sooooo you don't want Ocarina of Time, you just want to use the name of Ocarina of Time as a trendy social accessory for a couple weeks
>>740619624>you realize that the time system itself allows exploring the same areas to offer different outcomes based on choices you madeit doesn't do that, you sound like me when I would smoke pot and play Wind Waker thinking about how cool the game COULD be
>>740620502>just do the same thing over and over again because everything needs to function the same way from the beginning of the game until the end because no item gating
>>740620616>they're just nostalgia blinded>but MY decade-old game is perfect and totally the platonic ideal of Zelda!
>>740619678Well duh, Totk is the nearly flawless direct sequel.
>>740590082The original game was already non linear you dumb fag
>>740619776>I think it's deeply unfair to judge a game outside of the historical contextI literally think the exact opposite, it's extremely unfair to judge a game in a time capsule and vacuum. You're just insisting the game is better, or more perfect, than it actually is right now.
>>740619803NTA, this is Ocarina of Time.
>>740620683>It doesn't do that.Maybe not to the degree a true immersive sim would, but it's definitely does that to the degree that it needed to and anything more would have lended to bloat, which is what happened to MM3D.
>>740590082can you imagine if they turn it into botw lmao>You WILL enjoy running through 30 sq. miles of generic, copy-pasted, empty fields and forests.>You WILL enjoy climbing the 15th Ubislop tower.>You WILL enjoy the shitty stamina meter that serves zero combat purpose and only exists to limit your exploration.>You WILL wait like a good little cuck when it starts raining while climbing.>You WILL enjoy the 30fps gameplay with 150ms of input lag.>You WILL enjoy clearing out the 200th bokoblin camp full of the same few enemy types reskinned in a different color.>You WILL enjoy the shitty durability system that constantly forces you to change weapons every few minutes.>You WILL enjoy hunting for hundreds of the same generic collectible just to be able to hold a few more items.>You WILL enjoy the four barebones dungeons in a 50+ hour game, none of which would even be better than a middle of the pack dungeon in any other Zelda game.>You WILL enjoy fighting the same recycled boss four times.>You WILL enjoy walking 10+ minutes through emptiness just to reach a shrine.>You WILL enjoy watching the same 3 minutes of drawn out animations and loading screens for every shrine just for a 30 second puzzle>You WILL enjoy the repetitive MMO-tier fetch quests.
>>740620582In the case of OoT, the dungeon "puzzles" aren't actually puzzles. They're just lock and key checks, block pushing and eye switch shooting.
>>740620901MM3D is the best version of MM.
>>740620975>You WILL enjoy the repetitive MMO-tier fetch quests.Silly ootfag, Oot already had these they don't need to copy BotW
>>740620975I mean it looks like it would be fun>>740607280 >>740607351
>>740620817The reason that isn't unfair is because we know that any game released today, no matter how perfectly conforming to this zeitgeist of modern game design conventions, is going to be judged differently when these conditions change in the future. If BotW was just as good as OoT within its own historical context, which it isn't, then it could still be considered just as bad as OoT in the future once we have super VR technology or more dynamic AI.The point is, you can judge BotW for flaws it has today because games released around and before it was made that did these things better, you can't judge OoT for not having modern technological advancements (which the PC port does offer) or an understanding of game design they were incapable of knowing of by that point.
>>740620996>it's not a puzzle, it's just a thing where you have to figure out what the solution is
It already has a remake and it is better than the orginal. Who is asking for another remake.
>>740621282>where you have to figure out what the solution is"Use the item you just got on the thing you can interact with because Navi flew up to it" does not constitute figuring anything out, dumb frog poster.
>>740597189>I'm not sure it holds up. It doesn't have analog camera, it runs at 240p resolution and average 20fps, there's hitching when you pause the game, saving quitting and resuming doesn't retain your position in the gametechnical and hardware limitations>most puzzles involve block pushing or just shooting a switchdefine "most">there's unskippable cutscenes every 30 secondsfalse>the lock on bounces to enemies you dont intend it totechnical and hardware limitations>there's knee high fences you cannot vault over, there's inclines the horse refuses to move beyondtechnical and hardware limitations + it's not an open world game>you have to play several songs and run back to the temple of time to transform between child and adult formsgood>rupees are completely worthless and seemingly the only reward you get for explorationsomewhat true, not that this is really any different from BOTW/TOTK>the dialogue options are redundant just forcing you to pick Yesthis is almost every game ever>there's tons of things the game just doesn't explaingood>there's tons of things the game over explainstrue>the map is uselessfalse + get good>a lot of the only sidequests in the game are fetch queststhis is almost every game ever>nonexistent swimming controlstrue + technical and hardware limitations>arbitrary limitations between child and adult link itemsgood>the teleports between areas leave a lot to be desiredsuch as?>no faster movement mechanic for young linkgood + you can roll>the challenge is virtually nonexistentbad faith + this isn't dark souls + this was 30 years ago>there's a lot of backtracking for 100% completiongood>Navi gets stuck repeating the same info routinelytrue>many items are just palette swaps or replacements with the same functionalitysuch as?>and there's no world building or character development.jej
>>740621412>technical and hardware limitationsthis doesnt exist, if they wanted to they could
>>740620996>In the case of OoT, the dungeon "puzzles" aren't actually puzzles. They're just lock and key checks, block pushing and eye switch shooting.i really want to hear you explain how OOT dungeon puzzles are worse than BOTW and TOTK puzzles
If a game needs a remake, then it was never good in the first place.
>>740621253>it isn't unfair because games will be judged by the same metric as well
>>740621482Um, you can put a ball in a cup for a heckin shrine orb, you chud. That is heckin good game design.
>>740621412>one word responsesevery time, you fags are nose blind to the game's very real issues.>did you point out a problem?!>>hand wave
>>740621482NTA, but there's shrines in Botw that were much more engaging than anything in Oot. Is there a single puzzle in Ocarina of Time as good as the Ne'ez Yohma shrine?
>>740621608half of your complaints are like saying Citizen Kane "doesn't hold up" because it wasn't filmed in colour on an 8K RED camera with a surround sound audio track
>>740621737>put ball in cupOH MY SCIENCE, 10/10 GAME DESIGN
>>740621779For starters cinema is a different medium where video game critique has no bearing. I simply criticized a game as a 2026 something, like any normal person would if they weren't bending over backwards to prop up an outdated game.
>>740590082Nothing, I'd rather have a new classic 3d zelda instead of a remake of an already great game I've been playing for 30 years
>>740621808Mention some puzzles you like in Oot.
>>740621482OoT "puzzles" are pushing a block along a fixed path, shooting an eye switch that's clearly visible or simply using the new tool you got on an object with no variety in how it's used. BotW and TotK have actual simulated physics and multiple interacting systems, so shooting a switch might involve creating an air current, hitting a switch to launch yourself up, and then shooting the switch through a small gap as you fall, and moving blocks has full 3D motion and freedom of approach instead of fixed and restricted paths. The former are terrible puzzles, the latter are not. One solution puzzles can be good if the solutions are clever and not telegraphed, but that isn't the case for OoT puzzles.
>>740621896>For starters cinema is a different medium where video game critique has no bearing.i greatly enjoy this implication that BOTWfags can't comprehend analogies
>>740621737>literal ball-in-cup pachinko puzzle
>>740621505When you frame it that way, I understand where you're coming from. Judging all art based on a single, if constantly changing and updating, metric seems more fair than judging all art based on completely different metrics depending on different conditions. But.. it's not actually fair, it's valuing uniformity. Applying the exact same test to everyone isn't fair, fairness is ensuring that the test fits the circumstances.
>>740621980>actual simulated physicsAnd you can just skip everything. And no, that isnt a good thing.
>>740621980I love using these simulated physics systems to put the ball in the cup.
>>740620632>sooooo you don't want Ocarina of TimeI played the Original and the 3DS one, why the fuck do I want OoT to be remade and be the exact same?
>>740622161To clarify further, judging all games based on the same exact metric introduces inherent biases that benefit some games over others. If I were to judge every game as a shooter, then Tetris would be dogshit, for example.
>>740619760Wrong
>>740621980but these shrine puzzles are equally telegraphedand on top of that they always provide you with the tools to solve them PRECISELY BECAUSE the game can never guarantee you'll have any item or tool whatsoever when you enter the shrineso you get telegraphs from the layout and design, AND you get BONUS telegraphs from the shrine just straight up handing you the keys to your keys-and-locks shrine puzzles
>>740621192>it is as if entering into a dungeon this time though as the path to the Deku tree is laden with monsters and a few puzzles>the player winds up in the treetops and with a slingshot Link dives down into the Deku tree to a boss arena in the depths with Gohma>afterwards Deku tree regales more story narrative and perishes after delivering the Kokiri emerald>Mido is upset and this is expanded into a sidequest to be tackled later>all of the kokiri have dialogue to reflect the events that transpiredIt really does sound awesome.
>>740621907The same shit with star fox, just give us a new game, I don't even care if you rehash the gameplay mechanics but please no more remakes!
>>740622176Non sequitur. Try again.>>740622260Yes, puzzles typically have an end state. The examples I gave were comparing eye shooting puzzles. No balls or cups. Try actually addressing what I said instead of being a demented fanboy who needs to pretend the first 3D game he played was the best one ever.
>>740622161>But.. it's not actually fair, it's valuing uniformity.No clue what that even means, standards change, I don't think the values of the city of Pompeii matter in 2026 America.
>non-linearityfuck off, speedrunner, the game funnels you in specific directions on purpose
>>740596219You're hating on a new Zelda title that is going to get announced tomorrow. Get out of here, snoy.
>>740621980Lots and lots of block pushing puzzles. This same dungeon has block pushing with yellow arrows on the floor.
>>740622403>these shrine puzzles are equally telegraphedThis is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read. This isn't true on any level.
Twilight Princess is already a fine oot remake.
>>740619936OoT is a real Zelda game. LoZ is a real Zelda game. ER is much closer to LoZ in design than BotW is. That simple, and if it makes someone like you seethe, good.
>>740622692the only friction i've ever had with any shrine puzzles was because of physics jank
>>740622504No I agree with you anon.It's amazing how BOTW innovates and has creative puzzles like putting the ball in the cup or putting the square peg in the square hole.Or do you remember how amazing the puzzle in that divine beast where you manipulate the thing to do the other thing was.
>>740622303>judging all games based on the same exact metric introduces inherent biases that benefit some games over othersAnd bending over backwards to give special pleading for an old game does exactly that. It's better you stay fucking consistent instead. otherwise you just look pretentious.
>>740620254So true. Skipping everything is what a REAL Zelda game is all about.
>>740622732>ER is much closer to LoZ in design than BotW isYou've never played LoZ.>seetheAnd you're a third world shitposter.
>>740611381the non linear part of the "open world" is the worst part of it. Having a big world is the cool thing, every location being available at all times isnt a good thing it just means nothing can be too important or interesting otherwise someone will miss out
>>740622752What does that have to do with puzzles being telegraphed?>>740622805>Or do you remember how amazing the puzzle in that divine beast where you manipulate the thing to do the other thing was.You forgot to make this one sound simplistic and boring.
>>740622834This. Oot is a bad zelda game because ypu cant even skip the tutorial and rush right to ganon. Unlike botw.
>>740622820it's not special pleading you fucking debatelordevery game ever was made under the technical constraints of its timeif it's special pleading then go ahead and port BOTW to the N64
>>740622403>they always provide you with the tools to solve themas opposed to not having the tools to solve them? you have to be the most god damn retarded faggot in the thread. Yeah solving a fucking puzzle involves having all the fucking pieces.
>>740620058Nothing, botwfags just want another pointless copy pasted walking sim without having to say they want a walking sim.
>>740622752the only friction i've ever had with any dungeon puzzles was because of slow block pushing
Can't wait to call BotWniggers Snoys tomorrow for only liking two out of 33 games and hating on the new announcement. Feels good.
>>740620502I too prefer to just cram the square block into the round hole and pat myself on the back for it. Only plebs don't just scribble random numbers all over their sudokus.
you niggers are insufferable, the puzzles in all 3d zelda games are meant to be beaten by literal children, they aren't hard or complex, they're just fun to do and they don't take up much timeI genuinely hope they did give OOT the BoTW treatment so you dumb motherfuckers seethe about it for another decade
>>740622805>do you remember how amazing the puzzle in that divine beast where you manipulate the thing to do the other thing wasVah Naboris was fucking awesome, it's better than all of Oot's dungeons
>>740622929>every game ever was made under the technical constraints of its timeSo follow fucking through, it's aged poorly in many aspects. It sure was good 30 years ago, but that's not today.
>>740622952How fucking stupid do you have to be to not know what a walking sim is?
>>740623113>Vah Naboris was fucking awesome, it's better than all of Oot's dungeonsThat's a bold statement.I respect your retardation but I wholeheartedly disagree with you
>>740622913having trouble figuring out the solutions is friction, otherwise known as "the puzzle being a puzzle at all">>740622930well it would be nice to at least have that moment of figuring out for myself what i need to use or combine to figure the puzzle out, but unfortunately the game can never let me have that because it's completely at odds with the structure of the game and so it's forced to just hand me the keys to the locks at the start of every single shrine, thereby eliminating most or all of the "puzzle" part of the puzzle
>>740623103BotWsnoys have severe NDS
>>740621737You thinking anyone knows what was in the deez'nuts shrine without having to look it up is funny.
Towns are actually alive with lots of people, then towsn are actually destroyed and you see skeletons and shitSaria and Malon sexLight temple as a trialbig fat fish Ruto titties
At this point, everyone can agree on the fact that the puzzles in Ocarina of Time dungeons need to be different. Otherwise you would just be going through the motions.
>>740622692He's absolutely right and it's a fundamental flaw with botw and it's practically nonexistent progression.
>>740623186which brings us back to the point that half of your complaints are whining about graphics and performance and half of the remaining complaints are whining about the game not letting you do literally whatever you want literally whenever you want because experiencing any type of roadblock or obstacle or challenge on your journey to killing Ganon as fast as possible is "bad game design"
>>740623324It is almost like they could release some kind of master quest hack of the game, instead of a gay remake.
>>740622820Judging a game by modern metrics exclusively not only isn't consistent because the rubric is constantly changing but if game design conventions *didn't* change, then culture as a whole would stagnate. BotW would never exist if games before it didn't experiment with many of the things it did. BotW can only exist because games based on things pioneered by OoT game before it and inspired it. And OoT is the same exact way and can't be judged on the same metrics as Zelda 1.BotW is worse than OoT specifically because OoT did more to achieve its own internal set of goals to a higher degree than BotW. And not even that much higher, if we're being totally honest, OoT has its own flaws that we could get into from a historical standpoint but they are far more insignificant compared to BotW's flaws next to its contemporaries.
>>740623072they're already losing their christfucking minds today over just the Direct being confirmed and not even any sign of OoT Remake yet, it's glorious
>>740622848I have, that's why I know you're full of shit.
>>740623324yes, i would expect nothing less
Why did the Hero of Time drown in pussy? Seriously he's a harem MC compared to every other Link.
>>740623230It's not just bold, it's true. Just take Vah Naboris and compare it to Oot's dungeons and see for yourself. THIS is a puzzle, a dungeon spanning puzzle. The boss fight as well, it's fantastic, perhaps better but eh.
>>740590082A new pit of 100 trials style gauntletThree new dungeonsRemixed version of old dungeons (not master quest crap). More sword/combat options like what TP did)
the fact that "BOTWsnoys" is a term being used by anyone is so fucking funnythis site is so shit why can't i LEAVE
>>740623207I'm using the literal definition of the words. Cope over whatever semantics you want, you know exactly what I'm talking about even if you won't admit it.
>>740623230Not him, but you're wrong. Vah Naboris was the best implementation of the "moving dungeon" concept the series has been working towards.
>>740623238>well it would be nice to at least have that moment of figuring out for myself what i need to useBotw is the Zelda game THAT DOES THAT you do not need to use specific tools anyway.Even with the tools in hand you still need to solve the fucking puzzle, god damn.You lay sight on some tools, you wonder "how are you to even use them to do this" it's puzzle solving 101. It's like you're the guy to become mad about a jigsaw puzzle.
>>740623238>having trouble figuring out the solutions is frictionSetting aside that an entire aspect of BotW's puzzles is actual execution and not just recognizing the goal state, what does that have to do with being telegraphed? The point of BotW puzzles is to quickly figure out what to do, but the challenge and fun part comes from figuring out how you're going to do it. OoT puzzles provide neither.
>>740623620>>740623582>no enemies to fight>just moving glorified platformsBravo nintendo.
>>740623385>talking about puzzles being telegraphed>it's true because progressionYou're a retarded nigger. Item gating doesn't make games good.
>>740623259It's an inside joke, I know it's a great puzzle, you never could care any less, just by naming a shrine I was beyond reproach.
At the end of the day, if BotW fans want to judge OoT based on things BotW does well and exclusively that, then they're going to be disappointed when they make a new game that is nothing like BotW or OoT. Smarter BotW fans already know ToTK is awful but it resembles BotW enough and gives them more systemic freedom so they can choose to argue it's better than BotW if they so desire, but the moment that the next Zelda game doesn't value the things that BotW values, the new Zelda will either be shit to you, or you'll change your mind and think BotW is now shit. Is that really an engaging way to handle games or art?>>740623610BotW isn't a walking sim. It is way outside the scope of that genre.
>>740623490The icing on the cake would be if it sells more than BotW. I can't fucking wait, the eternal BTFOing of the BotWniggers.
>>740623505>I havesee>>740617960>LoZ has progression by using tools to solve environmental navigation challenges. ER let's you sprint through everything, kill one boss and then access the late game area. Tools that interact with the environment are what gave LoZ its identity.
>>740623072their dismissive "psssh you just want everything to be a copy of oot" argument is completely dead now, because they're bitching about the idea of OoT Remake, let alone it not being a carbon copy of BotW>>740623814Let's not get carried away now.
>>740623598It's a counter to the ootsnoy that gets tossed around.Botwsnoy is probably more accurate to be honest with how many sony ponies fled to the switch but still held on to their raging hateboner for old nintendo.
>>740623385muh progress, go grind an MMO
I like OoTI like BotWWhat does that make me?
>>740623610>I'm using the literal definition of the words.No, you stupid fucking N64niggerbaby, you're using the words incorrectly. Walking sim is a term to describe games like Gone Home, not a term used by retarded semen slurping monkeys that want to pretend walking for more than 30 seconds to reach the next story mandated """curated content""" plot macguffin is bad.
>>740590082What is the appeal of non-linearity?
>>740623917A faggot
>>740623403The game sucks now, get over it.
>>740623808>>BotW isn't a walking sim. It is way outside the scope of that genre.I'm not talking about the genre. The vast majority of your time is literally just spent walking around looking for something to do in a bloated world with nothing meaningful to do.
>>740623917ootbotwsnoy
>>740623781Not my argument, but try again.
>>740623464>Judging a game by modern metrics exclusively not only isn't consistentbecause uhhhh, well ummthe outdated game is good! ahhI think we're done, dude.
>>740623851>Let's not get carried away now.It's hard not to desu. They've been absolutely insufferable the last 10 years acting like the franchise belongs to them when they refuse to try the older titles, and even calling people disingenuous for not liking the direction the series took. They deserve their own medicine, complete with the sales charts.
It needs to have every single bug from oot or it won't be fun, how do you even play this game normally
>>740623780You can fight enemies all the time, it's a dungeon, we're here for puzzles fucking got nap it.
Pic related. Though >>740597106 would be great for a whole new map with a child and adult section but it needs to have its own weapons, items and equipment to collect, make the trip worth it.
>>740623598There are people who attach their identity to brands, which is invariably a form of mental illness, but it does mean it's not really worth engaging with them seriously on a discussion because they'll perceive any reasonable criticism as a threat on themselves. For the sake of their own health, I'd really just ignore people who use loaded, opposition-framing terms like "snoy" in any capacity.
>>740624059Because modern metrics constantly change. It came free with the passage of time. There's a great game about this in the Zelda franchise, you probably know which one.
>>740623836Weapons are tools. It's funny you're arguing so hard in favor of progression in LoZ when BotW is so anti-thetical to any semblance of structure or progression and you can just beat the game in 30 minutes as a result. But you hold that against ER and pretend it' worse about this while ignoring all the other listed similarities. Very curious.
>>740624043What is your argument? How do these perceived telegraphed puzzles relate to your retarded OoToddler notions of progression? Be specific, and make sure you actually know what telegraphed puzzles are.
>>740623808>Totk is bad because it's actually betterI see
>>740623910If you hate progression, you hate Zelda.
>>740623715>Botw is the Zelda game THAT DOES THAT you do not need to use specific tools anyway.yes.yes it is.this is one of its greatest and most glaring flaws because every "puzzle" is now pure busywork.>You lay sight on some tools, you wonder "how are you to even use them to do this" it's puzzle solving 101.no, i don't, because being handed the tools eliminates all moments of curiosity and all challengeif i walked into the shrine and had to rely only on what i had, i would have to think about how to solve the puzzlesbut i don't have to think, because the game tells me what the puzzle needs by giving me what the puzzle needs upfront, and using those tools is fucking trivial>>740623720there are some good shrines, but the vast, vast majority of them are just busywork and the devs jerking off over the (admittedly very great) physics enginesometimes they're neat for a moment, but because player constraints are overall just about nonexistent, even that is often more annoying than fun because the act of going through these motions reminds me of how vaguely-defined and undemanding all the traversal and combat challenges are in the gameput the wheel on the slab and roll through the lava. catch air for the glider to reach a ledge. rotate a physics block. again.it's just the game being really proud of itself over, and over, and over, and i'm not "supposed" to be a completionist so it's "my fault" for getting bored with the shrines, but why is it my fault that the game is designed explicitly to treat all its best content as throwaway content just so people don't screech on twitter and make 5 hour autistic video essays about being forced to do something in a 200 hour game that also tries to have a story at the same time?and all i get at the end is ANOTHER FUCKING ORBit's the shittiest design conceit any zelda game has ever had, and a few of the shrines being as good as dungeons just means they should MAKE FUCKING DUNGEONS INSTEADYES I'M MAD
>>740623917A Zelda fan obviously
I have a feeling that this will be no better than the FF7 remakes. they’re going to pad this thing to hell. Watch them make sneaking into hyrule castle an hour long process.
>>740623937I said words, not genre. And I also say it because I know you shit your diapers over it.
>>740623910>mmoBOTW is much more like an MMO with its reliance on fetching stuff.>dude just get this stuff for recipes>dude just get this stuff for armor>dude just get this stuff for heartsOriginal Zelda games had meaningful progression in terms of character abilities.
>>740624297Sure, anon, and by that metric, OoT, BotW, ToTK, and even MM are all dogshit games, with ToTK being the best among them, because the systemic freedom and emergent player-driven narratives are still vastly inferior to games that are decades old like Space Station 13, Terraria, Minecraft, or so on.When you judge games by metrics that are arbitrary and not based on what the games themselves are trying to do, this is what happens.
There's Breath of the Wild fans, and there's Wildniggers... and the Wildniggers have GOT TO GO!
>>740624271I said what my argument was just don't misrepresent it, snoy.
>>740624251>Weapons are tools.Wrong. Weapons are weapons. Weapons in ER also do not have unique effects used for environmental interactions. Another anon brought up invisible walls, and I already mentioned how those just require damage to be done and how LoZ has more complicated tool systems for breaking barriers with bombs and lanterns. Try again.>It's funny you're arguing so hard in favor of progression in LoZ when BotW is so anti-thetical to any semblance of structure or progression What's funny is that you're stupid enough to think that I like BotW for letting me fight the final boss right away even though I never did that. I like it for the mechanics and world design. It not being mandatory never bothered me because I'm not a retarded faggot who refuses to do things in games if I'm not forced to. I liked collecting masks in MM even though those aren't necessary, and in terms of overall game structure and progression, I like how EoW did it best.>But you hold that against ERER has no tools or environmental interactions and puzzle solving. It's purely a combat focused game built around weapon types and stamina. It's nothing like any Zelda game at all, and you being a retarded nigger angry about BotW being popular won't change that.
>>740624316If you hate progress (Botw & Totk) then you hate Zelda.
The best dungeon between BOTW and ToTK is the Desert Temple, shit's filled with traps, puzzles and fights like a proper dungeon should be. fucking fight me.
>>740624143It's a dungeon. You're here for the confusing layout, the paranoia of the walls closing in, and the hard, heart-depleting niggas stalking those walls.It's how it was in Zelda 1 and Zelda 2 you fucking botw tards love bringing up whenever it's convenient for you so much, and it's how it should fucking be forevermore.
>>740624475>Wrong. Weapons are weaponsThey are literally tools
>>740624398I hope we actually get to go inside the castle. I remember trying to find ways to get in there by trying to find a hidden crawlspace or an open window as a kid.
>>740624357Gaming is busy work, life is busy work. Let me guess, you love achievement hunting in video games.>no, i don't,oh fuck off, it's how puzzles are solvedyou ask yourself how you apply the tools you have, and at this point it seems like you're arguing with nothing
>>740624357>but because player constraints are overall just about nonexistentThis is a nothing statement. The player constraints are the consistent physics rules. If a shrine requires fire to light something, I have to use a source of fire. I can't douse it in water or zap it with lightning. >and all i get at the end is ANOTHER FUCKING ORBIt's like you don't even remember what a vast majority of old Zelda game exploration led to.
>>740624465Bunch of word salad, get real.
>>740624401>I said words, not genre.That's not a genre, that's a pejorative term. You using words objectively incorrectly makes you retarded. People rightfully calling retarded doesn't mean they're angry, it just means you're retarded.
>>740624475You're the one arguing in extremely bad faith and you know it. It takes effort to argue in such a slimy way.
>>740624514All of Totk's dungeons are good, though the water temple felt a tad weak.
>>740624530lol none of the dungeons in the series felt like THAT except for one, just the one. Real ones know which one I'm talking about.
>>740624487Ubislop is not progress, it's just gutting what the series used to be to chase a more popular trend.
>>740624471>I said what my argument was>>740623385>He's absolutely right and it's a fundamental flaw with botw and it's practically nonexistent progressionIn this post "it's" means the telegraphed nature of puzzles. How are they telegraphed and how does that relate to progression? Be specific. Don't throw around buzzwords that retarded OoToddlers use but then fail to actually explain what they have to do with how the games are designed or handle puzzles. If you're too stupid to form a thought more complicated than "I hate BotW because I didn't play it when I was 8" then just come out and say that.
>>740624704>You using wordsI'm not sorry me using two words correctly upsets you.
>>740624539No, weapons are weapons. What different effects do they have on things in the world other than doing damage to enemies? If all they do is act as damage sources, then they're just weapons.>>740624718I know you're a retarded redditor so you're conditioned to think that screaming bad faith is your ticket out of an argument, but that's not how it works. Now try actually addressing what I said in my post or explaining how I'm arguing in bad faith. If you can't, you admit that you haven't played LoZ and your entire argument is made up nonsense about games you don't play.
(you)I love Kass
>>740624868>me using two words correctlyWhich ones? Because it certainly wasn't walking and sim.
>>740623814It's a remake on a less popular system, it's extremely unlikely.
>>740624718Actually the retards pretending weapons in ER are the same as tools in Zelda are the ones arguing in bad faith. That's just a dumb lie.
>>740624991A remake of a beloved 90s game. People underestimate how many people rented and pirated this game and have nostalgia for it. I'm predicting game sales that are similar to the Lion King remake's ticket sales.
>>740624719Yeah the Water temple one I didnt like, feels like one of the weakest in the series, the gravity gimmick wasnt utilized as well as it should have been.
>>740624918They are literally still tools, but whatever. Then count all the items you get in er, some of which are literal keys for progress.You're pretending bombs and the candle are a whole lot more than they really are just to avoid the rest of the argument while attacking er for things botw does far worse. The first zelda was far more combat and dungeon focused, puzzles were very minimal.
>>740625278>They are literally still toolsBy what metric? If you ignore what tools in video games are as opposed to weapons and can only pull up the definition of what a tool is in the most basic sense, then the argument is done.
>>740624618dungeon>encountered after exploration>presents you with challenges that variously use the dungeon item plus unspecified other items>contains worldbuilding>can contain characters with dialogue>ends in a bossfight>rewards you with a heart container>all other heart containers are found as quarter-pieces in the overworld through exploration and sidequestsshrine>encountered after exploration>presents you with one (1) challenge (or, very rarely, two or three challenges) that ONLY uses what the dungeon gives you and the items you're required to have in order to leave the tutorial zone>does not contain worldbuilding>does not contain characters nor dialogue>ends in the exact same featureless cookiecutter room as every other shrine>rewards you with a quarter of a heart container>no other heart/stamina upgrades are found in the overworld because they're all attached to shrines>sidequests still exist, but now cannot reward you with anything but commodity itemsuntil just now i hadn't put two and two together about how shrines have degraded sidequests, so thank you for helping me refine my understanding of just how vast and deep the negative impact of shrines has been on the design of zelda games by making me get mad at you
>>740625278>some of which are literal keys for progress.The whole point is that tools that can be used to affect things to solve puzzles are good (bombs break walls, lanterns burn wood) and that literal keys or tools that act as glorified keys are not.
>>740625061>Actually the retards pretending weapons in ER are the same as tools in Zelda are the ones arguing in bad faith.That's exactly what I'm talking about. Nobody said that. This was the original argument before that anon had a meltdown>>740617780
>>740625356>encountered after explorationI think you mean encountered after you run an errand for someone to let you in.>presents you with challenges Stopped reading there. There are no challenges in OoT dungeons, just enemies that are boring to fight and busy work that requires literally no thought.>But I was retarded and had trouble with the Water Temple!That's nice.
>>740590082>non-linearityBut the original game already has that. There's like two bottlenecks in the whole game. Once you're adult Link you can basically do the dungeons in reverse and they're even actually easier in some places to do that way because things like the Longshot trivialize other temples.
>>740625468>Nobody said that.>>740623836>LoZ has progression by using tools to solve environmental navigation challenges.>Tools that interact with the environment are what gave LoZ its identity.>>740624251>Weapons are tools.It's disgusting that you had the gall to say anyone else was arguing in bad faith.
>>740625356Heart containers being attached exclusively to shrines is so lame, but I do appreciate that Twilight Princess included heart pieces in optional chests of dungeons, and I do appreciate that shrines occasionally have optional puzzles inside them as well that mainly reward better equipment but generally I feel that the games poor balance and reverse difficulty curve leaves that underwhelming.
>>740625327I could, but I already said whatever to that. Why not address the rest of it?
>>740624719>have to babysit npcsEww no
>>740625510(You)
>>740625413>and that literal keys or tools that act as glorified keys are not.You gave two examples of those items just being used as keys.
>>740591921the game is already non linear for experienced players
>>740625510I know you're just fucking with the other guy but it is funny to think about post-BotW Zelda fans critiquing BotW's dungeon design when ToTK fans generally hate that games fire temple for being too obtuse and difficult to navigate which is one of the closest things resembling an OoT style Zelda dungeon in the post-botw Zelda games.
>>740625617>I could, but I already said whatever to that.Great, so you admit you're wrong. You don't get to handwave it and pretend it doesn't matter, you either back up what you say or admit you're wrong.>Why not address the rest of it?Sure.>Then count all the items you get in er, some of which are literal keys for progress.Keys aren't tools. This post explained it well>>740625413>You're pretending bombs and the candle are a whole lot more than they really areNo I'm not, and this is how I know you didn't play LoZ. The bombs and candle were amazing. They had multiple functions for combat, navigation and exploration and puzzle solving and they were only gated by the player's ability to get money and buy them. They made exploring the world and finding both secrets and the way to progress the story fun.>The first zelda was far more combat and dungeon focused, puzzles were very minimal.It didn't have puzzles like LttP introduced in dungeons, but it was all about environmental navigation and environmental puzzles. That was most of the game. Again, pretending it was just combat gauntlet dungeons makes it clear you never played it.
>>740625575Why do you ignore the whole argument? Is it because you hate that LoZ is more dungeons than overworld? That it has practically no puzzles in favor of near nonstop combat? That ER has loads of items that do a ton of different things? That both games have far more progression and structure to their open worlds than BotW's does?
>>740625674>just being used as keys.>justLanterns can hurt enemies and can light up dark rooms as well as burn trees and shrubs. Bombs can hurt enemies as well as blow up dungeon walls and holes for cave entrances. They aren't "just" keys.
>>740625649>Spirit Temple replaces this with fucking item babysittingOn the bright side they also completely gave up on the puzzle design when they got around to that dungeon and made it trivially easy to ignore doing anything remotely intended. Turns out there's a good reason the Divine Beasts didn't let you climb their walls.
>>740625793Err, I meant post-BotW fans critiquing OoT's dungeon design. Whoops.>>740624719Out of ToTK's six main dungeons the only good ones were Fire Temple and Desert Temple. Wind Temple and Construct Factory are okay at best and Water Temple/Hyrule Castle Revisited are just genuinely fucking terrible.
>>740625793>ToTK fans generally hate that games fire temple for being too obtuse and difficult to navigateOn what fucking planet?
>>740596518This. OOT is one of my favorite games of all time. Yet I have zero desire to play a demake. The original holds really well and its easy to emulate in most hardware.The world does not need this.
>>740625878>LoZ is more dungeons than overworld?Stop talking about games you haven't played. You spend far more time exploring the world than you do in dungeons in LoZ. The only reason you'd think otherwise is if you used a guide to see exactly where to go and then died a bunch in dungeons because you suck at games.>That both games have far more progression and structure to their open worlds than BotW's does?What progression structure is there in ER? All you have to do is run through a cave and kill one boss and then literally the entire fucking map is accessible.
>>740625824Okay, you're talking about bombs. They hurt enemies and blow up walls. Explain how that's different from a sword in er hurting enemies and revealing a hidden wall.>>740625884Torches can hurt enemies and light up dark areas in er.
>>740625951On the planet where everyone has atrocious taste, hasn't played more than a handful of videogames in their entire lives, and their frame of reference for what a good game looks like is the rest of ToTK giving them developer tools to force their way through anything which validates their ego and makes them feel smarter than they actually are when they bruteforce puzzles.In other words, the kind of planet ToTK fans would come from.
>>740626038>Explain how that's different from a sword in er hurting enemies and revealing a hidden wall.Because anything can reveal a hidden wall in Elden Ring. Are there any walls that require a sword or even a bladed weapon specifically? If not, then it's just a weapon and not a tool.
>>740626038>Torches can hurt enemies and light up dark areas in er.What environmental puzzles do they solve? Where's the dungeon in ER where you need to use a torch to light braziers or reflect light through a mirror or something?
>>740590082who said its going to be oot?what if we get some shots of hyrule field and the title says "The Legend of Zelda" and then after a pause the subtitle is revealed "The Hyrule Fantasy"
>>740626027LoZ is literally more dungeon than overworld no matter how much that fact upsets you and goes against BotW. It started out as a dungeon crawler before the overworld got added halfway through. Dungeons are core to Zelda's identity.
>>740626192>A full LoZ remake in the style of the prototyped version they showed for the BotW prototypeHoly shit, yes.
>>740626225>LoZ is literally more dungeon than overworld no matter how much that fact upsets you and goes against BotWYeah you've never played LoZ. Repeating things you read online doesn't change the fact that you haven't played the game and don't know anything about it.>It started out as a dungeon crawler beforeBefore they realized that was a terrible idea and would be a boring and derivative game, so then they made something actually good. That's how game development works. You might as well pretend dating sim harem shit is integral to OoT's identity if that's the blinding stupid stance you want to take.
>>740590082Look at Alundra and do that just in 3d
>>740626027>You spend far more time exploring the world than you do in dungeons in LoZBotWniggers everyone
>>740626369People that actually played LoZ? Yes, that's right.
>>740626192Only if they have the balls to keep all christian imagery, otherwise no
>>740626027>>What progression structure is there in ER? All you have to do is run through a cave and kill one boss and then literally the entire fucking map is accessible.Beeline straight to elden beast and beat it good luck with that. Attacking er like this just makes botw look worse since it's far more flawed in this regard. I mean shit the runes aren't even needed to beat the game the plateau forces them on you by making you magically unable to leave for no explainable reason.
>>740590147based
>>740626404BotWniggers haven't played 95% of the franchise
>>740626225>>740626369You absolutely spend more time in the overworld in LoZ, especially when you don't know what to do and when you need to grind out money to buy things.
>>740626415i want christfags to cease consumption of all media forever
>>740626337Whatever helps you cope to defend BotW, dude.
>>740626240its easy to see how botw was inspired by zelda 1. you know how they use the alttp style for the secondary games like echoes of wisdom? they should do that with botw for a zelda 1 remake with its original subtitle. a smaller map, tighter more feature rich locations.i do expect to see something like that one day>>740626415i agree but theyll never do it
>i want christfags to cease consumption of all media forever-posted from Tel Aviv
>>740626487Zelda as a series has heavy influence from real life religions with how its worldbuilding is formed. If an OoT remake came out it would obviously still contain Christian allusions because it's one of the games with the heaviest connection to abrahamic religions out of the entire series. Shintoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc also get represented heavily later on.
>>740626645i was wrong to assume, carry on king
>>740626337>dungeons arent important to zelda 1Okay, so how do you skip them and rush right to ganon?
>>740626478How long someone spent in one area or the other is a deflection. In terms of sheer scale the dungeons are twice as big as the overworld and that was the game's main focus for most of its development. Mandatory dungeons for item progression. Not to mention the overworld itself is structured very similar to a dungon with constant tight spaces and enemies everywhere. It wasn't just a giant blob of run straight to that blue thing a mile away like BotW.
>>740626435>I mean shit the runes aren't even needed to beat the game the plateau forces them on you by making you magically unable to leave for no explainable reason.Hi ACfag. Why are you still arguing about a game you haven't played?
>>740626782Terraria sucks. Almost as bad as botw. I'm one of your unnamed bogeymen I guess.
>>740626750oh no. I'm warning you now - walk. away. I know that anon you're replying to. He's the most disingenuous faggot in modern Zelda threads, and that's really saying something. You are not going to get any earnest discussion or argumentation.
>>740626492Why do you argue so much about a game you don't play and don't care about? Does BotW really send you into that much of a retarded monkey rage?
>>740626081>>740626163Weird, it's almost like you're championing lock and key oot all of a sudden.
>>740626750>dungeons arent important to zelda 1Who said that? Seriously? Quote who said that.>>740626864>disingenuousSomeone calling you a retard for outright lying isn't disingenuous, regardless of how much of a mentally retarded fanboy you are. People not taking your lies at face value is also not disingenuous.
>>740626645even the very concept of elves who are closer to gods than human is from the root of where nordic myth came from, from europe. its so tied to european myth and history, and so is christianity.i really do wish they had the balls to say, "look we're all big boys, link prays to jesus, get over it". this is only REALLY relevant to zelda 1 and 2, even though direct references to christianity continued. by 3, they started blending it with their 3 goddess myth. now they COULD come back and just do that and have christianity be just part of the world like the gerudo religion and other religions, but they wont. they should. but they wont
>>740626759>how long you spend somewhere doesn't matter>it's all about how big the area isHyrule Field is the most important part of OoT and everything else is secondary.>and that was the game's main focus for most of its development.No it wasn't. There is literally not a single source you have to back that up. That's your headcanon. What they actually said was that they prototyped with dungeons only then realized it was a bad idea and not fun enough, and then decided to make the overworld. Stop lying and making things up to fill in gaps to pretend you have a point. Just stop fucking lying.
>>740626889I told you already. Because I have played it and that's why I know you're full of shit.
>>740626957Lock and key can fine if it's a clever ah-ha moment like the bush burning in LoZ. OoT has nothing anywhere close to that good.
>>740626864Way too late for that, engaging with that autist has taken up half the thread.
>>740627074>Because I have played itNope, sorry. No one who's actually played it pretends the dungeon are a bigger part of the game than the world.
>>740627070>>Hyrule Field is the most important part of OoT and everything else is secondary.You disgust me. Something in your head is broken.
>>740627074stop getting baited you retard. is this your first fucking day here?
>>740627237But it's the biggest part. Isn't that the criteria? And why did you ignore lying about development?
>>740626829NOOO THAT BREAKS MY NARRATIVEYOU HAVE TO BE ACFAG
>>740627312>it's the biggest partthats king zora's ass
>>740627237You literally said>>740626759>How long someone spent in one area or the other is a deflection. In terms of sheer scale
>>740627070>No it wasn't. There is literally not a single source you have to back that up.Guess it's unreasonable to infer that from the game starting out that way in development, them being twice as big as the overworld, where you get the key items, what order and difficulty they should be, the bosses, etc. I know you just want to prance around in giant empty fields looking for another korok turd or something equally insignificant, but that's never what Zelda was about until BotW.
>>740626726If you are interpreting that as me endorsing Christianity via OoT, I should clarify that when I say it's heavily inspired by Abrahamic religions, that also includes Islam. Though it is to a lesser extent because Muslims were upset by the depiction of them and they had to censor some of those influences on re-releases. That all said, I have a great enough appreciation for Christianity that I think it's inclusion overall plays to the world's strengths.>>740627017Well, even in BotW, which is primarily derived from Shintoism, it's very easy to swap the spiritual embodiment of "light" in Hylia and Link's "resurrection" to that of Christ, it's just a tad more nebulous compared to OoT's trinity.I imagine Kass, who's reoccurring prayer of "May the light illuminate your path," and has culturally and fully embraced his faith in Hylia, would jell well with Christianity if he spent enough time in the real world and was aware Hylia is fictional.Buuut, that's just wishful thinking on my part as a Christ believer, he would likely see Amaterasu or Buddha as more compellingly Hylian.
>>740627312>And why did you ignore lying about development?Because he's a retarded nigger who needs to insist that you're being disingenuous and trolling and lying outright about what devs said hurts his narrative of pretending to be a reasonable series fan.
>zelda 1s overworld has 128 screens to explore in total>in comparison it has 125 dungeon screens>this means that zelda 1 was not about dungeon crawling
>>740625234Yeah, but I liked the others quite a bit.
>>740627457>Guess it's unreasonable to infer thatYes, you stupid fucking nigger. Your headcanon is irrelevant. It means less than nothing.>where you get the key itemsThe most important items you get in the game are the bombs and lantern. Which dungeon do you get those in? Just stop lying, you stupid nigger. You're so mad about BotW that you're literally making things up about a game you haven't played and don't even like.
>>740627129>bush burning in zelda 1>cleverbruhit and bombing walls was trial and error as fuck. That shit ain't puzzles no matter how hard you try to slice it
>>740625510lol the yellow paint
>>740627592>it and bombing walls was trial and error as fuck.>trial and errorI really, really wish people on /v/ would stop arguing about games they don't play.
>>740590082It needs to be faithful to the original with no added fanfiction
>>740625927>Wind Temple is just okaynah fuck off
i don't really care to play more zelda games. if i did, i would just play the zelda games. there is no new permutation of game + zelda branding and characters that would suddenly be revolutionary must play new title.
>>740627481>Muslims were upset by the depiction of them and they had to censor some of those influences on re-releasesthats not true. nintendo themselves were the ones panicking about religion. they had no outside pressure. to that point, the audio and symbols were changed BEFORE the game released. they had made some carts already before the update. both versions shipped out on the same day.to be fair they at least kept the churches and praying. i think they literally just swapped jesus for hylia. had they kept christianity and just added to the triforce myth, those hylia statues would be jesus
>>740627660My Zelda game idea would entice you
>>740627481oh nevermind i was right, please cease
>>740627129>I'd rather go wall to wall, tile to tile, than jump from a high place onto a giant cobweb>bombing every wall, burning every bush, pushing every statue is peak puzzle design and also totally just like botw while hidden walls in er are notThere is no curing whatever you have.
>>740596747I am so grateful that the worst thing that the Zelda VA from my region was doing ASMR OnlyFans commisions of her describing flicking with the same voice she puts on the games and not have shitty voice
>>740627829>comparing a mandatory thing to side secretsI'd rather burn a bush in my way to open a clear shortcut and realize it's a hidden dungeon than hold foward to run and automated jump, yes.
>>740627640seriously? you can only trick people who have not played this game
>>740627803>t. average ideas guypic related
>>740627640broheim on your side about zelda 1 not being a dungeon crawler since theres so much overworld to explore, but that overworld exploring is to find the entrances to shit. you have to bomb and burn and toot on every fucking tile. THAT one is clearer because its a dungeon, but the rest are random, as are nearly all bombable walls
>>740618678which itself follows the trend of golden early print versions of the games dating back to the original nes carts
>>740609498>The Water Temple can be done at any time after ForestActually, with clever usage of farores wind, you can avoid certain paths through the dungeon and beat it without needing the bow from the forest temple.
>>740627258While engaging with that aspie is a complete waste of time, he's not baiting. He's done this shit for years. It's some advanced autism.
>>740627910>seriouslyYes. There's nothing trial and error about that.>>740627943>you have to bomb and burn and toot on every fucking tile. THAT one is clearer because its a dungeon, but the rest are random, as are nearly all bombable wallsYes. The ones you need to do to beat the game are clever. The others are random secrets. You're not supposed to check every spot, you're supposed to just play the game and stumble on a few of them and then maybe talk to someone who themself stumbled on a few. That's how things worked before the internet.
>>740627983No, you need the bow to get a key
>>740628051why dont you just rape him until he stops?
>>740628123He cut his dick off years ago.
>>740627312You want to claim the dungeons in LoZ have no content? Go ahead.
>>740590082The linearity should not be messed with.But make Hyrule Field a little bigger. Doesn’t have to be open world shit, just make it so it doesn’t feel like a weird tiny hub area.Visually I hope it tries to emulate original art and Nakano character illustrations as closely as possible.That cartoony but also slightly dark tone, which the original tried but couldn’t always fully because of the limitations of the N64.Fuck a quest log.
>>740628192>The linearity should not be messed with.It absolutely should, it needs to be open world.
>>740627787>they had no outside pressure beforeI think you greatly overestimate how scary it is to actually depict Islam due to how people will literally kill non-muslims for depicting their prophet.>>740627815I don't know what part of the post changed your mind but fair enough.
>>740628182>You want to claim the dungeons in LoZ have no content?Who are you quoting?
>>740627424And? The rest of the game outside of Hyrule Field dwarfs it. Not a good argument, it actually just bolsters mine.
>>740628247open world with linear dungeon/story progression, problem solved
>>740627579You are so damn mad lmaoWhy can't you argue without screeching and shitting yourself?
>>740628347>And? The rest of the game outside of Hyrule Field dwarfs it.Hyrule Field plus the the area in Lake Hylia are the biggest areas of the game, dwarf everything else individually and are bigger than all the other areas combined. Are those the most important parts of the game, or do we only get to add things together when it's convenient for you? By your metrics, the mostly empty overworld of OoT is the most important part since it's far bigger than the dungeons in terms of sheer space.
>>740591921That's literally already how it works, outside of getting the bottle to get into Jabu Jabu.
>>740628123We need eric for that.
>>740628424>lol why can't you just let me lie and make shit up and pretend it's a reasonable argument?Why can't you argue without inventing things that were never said by the devs, nigger? lol
>>740628460>>Hyrule Field plus the the area in Lake Hylia are the biggest areas of the game, dwarf everything elseNot even remotely. Do you realize how big the dungeons are in oot?
>>740628290the part where you're unambiguously a christfag
>>740628493Remove the rocks in front of Zora's Domain, there I improved the game.
>>740628621>Not even remotely.Absolutely.>Do you realize how big the dungeons are in oot?I don't think you realize how small they actually are given their truncated nature. Outside of dungeons having one decent sized central room, most of the rooms are very small. Hyrule Field and the lake area are bigger than all the dungeons. If you look at the entire overworld, then it dwarfs the dungeon area by a ton. By your standards, that means OoT is an overworld focused game.
>>740628493maxed out autism statshit requires speedrun tricks and memorizing the game in ways no one would do if they weren't trans
>>740628847This is one out of nine, not counting mini dungeons or other areas. You lost.
>>740628705Basically, yes. But you can just do Dodongo's halfway, then leave with the bomb bag to do Jabu first.>>740628893No, it's easy. Here, before BotW came out, I went and replayed OoT3D. Without glitches, I did this.Wanna know the fun part? I didn't even need the Forest or Water medallions. Just leave once you get the bow and longshot, and you can get Spirit as your first medallion.
>>740629023>you can just do Dodongo's halfway, then leavethat's super gay, make it open world
>>740628942Yes, and I know you think that explosion style diagram is impressive, but anyone with functioning eyes and a functioning brain can see how small it is. Most of that is empty space connecting the rooms. Put the rooms actually next to each other and every dungeon room fits inside of Hyrule Field. I know you're dumb, but try really hard to understand that the black space and white lines in that image aren't actually part of the dungeon.
>>740629023>Just leave once you get the bow and longshotwhat a waste of time
aren't botwtrannies tired after totk? why are they trying to ruin oot?
>>740629167It's a videogame, stupid. It's all a waste of time.
>>74062894220 rooms? Totk dungeons are bigger than that.
>>740629143>Most of that is empty spaceOh, okay, then I guess you just disqualified 95% of hyrule field and botw. You lost harder.
>>740629195Make Oot good again, it hasn't been good since early 2000's
>>740629195because they're assblasted by the concept of good game design not being the same as "i get to do anything i want :)"
>>740629241Cool, now add more of them, and make them actually worth doing and not suck.
>>740629256>Oh, okay, then I guess you just disqualified 95% of hyrule field and botw.Empty space as in the image you posted is an exploded view and most of the image itself is literally not space within the dungeon. At this point I can't tell if you're genuinely illiterate or if you're just so stupid you thought ignoring what I said was clever.
>>740629323We have arrived at the depths, enjoy your stay.
>>740629339Holy cope, take the L.
>>740629241>"bigger">it's just a long hallway with multiple copypasted drones
>>740629397>my image is a bunch of small rooms spread around to make it look like they take up a lot of room>yeah well Hyrule Field is mostly empty so checkmateI feel bad for your parents/caretaker/tard wrangler.
>>740629409Enough about Ocarina of Time
>>740629479You got dismantled.
