>He unironically fell for the "you don't need apm" memeLuh mao
I don't play these games multiplayer.
fpbp
>>740833390Gay
>>740833882Says the person playing with other guys.
fpwp
if they buff handcannoneers, all will be fine
I don't think there is anything more pathetic than sweating in an RTS game.You are not even Asian, you have no excuse.
>>740833882Enjoy your 'ELO', retard.
>>740833390/thread
there's literally a top-level player called John Slow who is like 2000+ elo despite having garbage APMyou don't need APM
>>740836292>I don't think there is anything more pathetic than sweating in an RTS game.Sweating in a MOBA game.
>>740833390This. Thousands of hours and never touched multiplayer even once.
>>740833390This.
>>740833342>Play RTS campaign>It's fun, unit balance seems good, etc>Hey lets check out the multiplayer!>Entire resource, unit balance and mechanics are different, rendering everything you learned in the campaign useless>Drops game
>>740833390Certified king shit
>>740833342>giving a shit about anything but compstompRetardThe only exception I make is LANs which are dead shit these days so you can shit talk your opponent in person.
>>740833390>>740838782>>740838236>>740836487>>740838210these are going to be the old faggots you see playing chess against themselves on parks.
>>740839292You aren't entitled to win against me.
>>740833987kek
>>740839292I play AoE to quench my historical and city-building thirst, multiplayer brings nothing but unfunny stress. I can't build cities with chess, so of course I have no problem playing chess with others.
>>740833390Based.
>>740833342you need a build order, the amount of apm you need to fulfill a build order is very small, yes if you do things like duel with your scout in dark age, mangonels and bombard cannons you are going to lose to someone with more apm but aoe2 is the only game of this kind where if you are just slower in general you are not absolutely fucked out of the gate
i've been playing Starship Troopers terran command recently again and holy shit the eradicators fucking sucki can send a basic bitch rifle squad up a lane and it'll comfortably solo a single file stream of regular warrior bugs making some forward progress or even hold decently against the occasional double filemeanwhile these fucking horde handler tards need 3 squads to reliably not lose models against just regular ass warrior patrols, let alone shit like tiger bugs
>>740837783Woah, you mean APM isn't that big of a deal and this board isn't full of tactical geniuses held back solely because they refuse to gookclick? People are, of course, free to not want to engage in PvP but the sheer copium over it on this board is often embarrassing to witness. Supposed casual players just trying to have fun regularly exposing themselves as having tremendous egos. It's not even an RTS thing but any remotely competitive game.
>>740833342You don't. It probably matters a bit between the top 3 players in the entire world but you are not those guys.
>>740833342He's not wrong and frankly, even in brood war you don't really need super APM until you're around 1900 rank. Up until then you can beat everyone with basic scouting and proper build order even if your apm is ass.
>>740837783SC2 all but requires comical attack move-move stutter step to win battles at high ranks. Which is a shitload of APM compared to 'attack move, hope you win'
>>740839993>but aoe2 is the only game of this kind where if you are just slower in general you are not absolutely fucked out of the gateWrong
>>740840428units with activatable abilities are bad RTS design.
>>740833342You don't have to click rapidly at all times just for the sake of it, but you can't treat it like a turn based game either.
>>740840505What if your RTS only has a single spellcaster?
>>740833342That video was completely full of shit.
sybau
>>740840856it's pushing it, in that case I'd want most of the units to have autonomy.
>>740840910In Populous: The Beginning, your control over your units is loose. You direct them where to go, but once they get into fights they become frenzied and tend not to listen to any commands, they just fight until the battle is done. Your Shaman is the only unit you have complete control over, obviously being the leader of your tribe and the one who quite literally shapes and terraforms the battlefield and rains down brimstone and swarms of locusts. It's great.
>>740840862Iirc the point of it is that it's not APM you need but multitasking, which is even harder, lole
>>740841065Which is a skill that 98% of the population can't perform worth a shit, which doesn't help the video at all.
>>740833342Whats APM
>>740836209Never, op uni
>>740833390You need it in the original aoe2 campaign too, its really tough
>>740833342Look up LimitedViper, pro got like 3k elo using an apm limiter so he had the speed of a geriatric and still beat everyone
>>74084190460 APM is not that low. If he'd done it with 10 or 15 you'd have a point. He can't.
>>740833342You don't need APM to play multiplayer.
>>740839292Chess doesn't support single player campaigns you can clear and move on.Esport unironically killed the genre.Multiplayer used to be a one in a while activity for lan parties.
Why /v/ only talks about boring rts like OP pic instead of blizzard classics like broodwar and wc3?
>>740842165Because they're over 20 years old and there's only so much to talk about. Although they still get threads here occasionally.
>>740842165Why would I talk about games I thought were shit in 1998 and 2002?
>>740842165SC was always assWC is great though
>>740833342>i can't have fun if i don't win
>>740842245>>740842275Things have evolved since back then and wc3 is still getting balance updates
>>740842334Everything I thought was bad about them on release is still bad.
>>740833342
>>74084207460 APM as max average over the entire game or 60 APM as a max cap on actions taken in any given moment?
>>740833342>eheh my intelligence is superior to your speed, Sung Foo Li. Watch this!
>>740833342>>740840505I blame the moba faggots and their need for tactics and gay activation abilities.
>>740842664That cancer long predates MOBAs and is straight from the games MOBAs were built off of.
>>740842165/v/ is shit at bw so they don't play itwc is just bad in mp
>>740841809alas, it is not OP
>>740842074>If he'd done it with 10 or 15 you'd have a pointAre you like physically crippled?
>>740842819I hope you get champi rushed forever and never get to make a single hand canonneer ever again
>>740842074>60 APM is not that lowHere's your (you)
>>740842074>Gookers play with 250-300 apm>60 is not low enough
>>740842165retold is objectively the best RTS ever made
>>740841754Actions per minute. It's how often you click and slam your keyboard. Some games like Starcraft display the stat to show you how much you suck compared to the guy you lost against.Thing is, it's a totally worthless metric because no player with high APM ever uses all of these clicks productively. More like they spam orders, cycle between buldings or just warm up their fingers.
>>740843326>250-300 apm>90% of that inflated by ADHD spam clicking the same command 10 times
>>740842717yeah, but moba popularized it to the faggots
I like to watch my little army guys fight. I don't want to keep clicking away to do other shit all the time and miss the action.
>>740833342You need APM and prior knowledge (build orders)RTS is a gigasweat genreSame as mobas
>>740840505Units without smartcast abilities are the fucking worst.I don't give a FUCK if my spellcaster uses their spell on 9 units instead of 10, just let them fucking use it on their own volition god damn.I thought this was a STRATEGY game not a TACTICS game.
>>740833390staggeringly based
>>740842953Yes and it's nowhere close to that low. You missed the point.
>>740842165>blizzardThis is the problem
>>740833390fpbpFuck competitive trannies for ruining the rts genre
>>740840856>>740841003It's my favourite RTS as well. I don't really love the army movement in RTS but i do enjoy building up a base with a couple of big impact moments. Having to do intense micro with more than a couple of units get tiring very quickly.
>>740843521>>740843539If you believe this you're a shitter. First, we can and do measure effective apm which excludes the 'useless' commands. Second, nobody actually spams random commands to boost apm after the start of the game.
>>740842074You probably typed that post at a minimum of 100APM
>>740842165>boring rts like OP piccalling AOE2 boring makes you an absolute zoomer, a tourist and a faggothope you are happy with yourself
https://liquipedia.net/ageofempires/Red_Bull_Wololo/3If Daut could, you can win without APM too
>>740844376Compfags literally never do move orders with just one click. They always click around a dozen times and they're always clicking something when they have nothing better to do. If you forced them to do just one click per meaningful action, most players would struggle to stay in the triple digit range as the match continues past the ten minute mark.
>>740844460Typing isn't the same.
>>740840428>high ranksliterally just grandmaster, manyou could (I haven't played in years tbf) hit master and stay afloat with tight macro, attack moving, and basic scouting
>>740844858It's more similar than it is different
>Age of empiresDon't care, absolute senile old man tier>GreyGooP E R F E C T I O N feed me more catalyst!The perfect balanced RTS gemu on all aspectsLiterally designed to stop rushing chessy death ball brain dead starcraft autists playing at max speed settings because can't savory planned destruction and multi phased tactics, and has the most CGI honest trailer everhttps://youtu.be/1Sl1WCZEQfg
>>740844568Daut has 100,000 hours in the game, I only have 10
>>740843279:(
>>740833342>I'm insecure so you should be toofag
>>740833390Coward
>YEAH BRO 18% RECURSIVE GROWTH PER MINUTE ACROSS FORTY MINUTES IS NOTHING BRO>HUH, WHY ARE YOU UNINSTALLING LOOK, WATCH ME *low elo gameplay against bots*>IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE IDK WHY EVERYONE MAKES A BIG DEAL
>>740843539Try playing terran in Starcraft 2 beyond bronze levelYou need at least 150 APM to keep up with all the shit going on. Make a 0.01 second mistake and you lose half of your marines and marauders to some protoss fucker
>>740844708in age of empires we use effective APM
>>740833390Based, imagine playing multi after 2010 lol.
>>740847419How do you calculate it?
>>740833390literally me
>>740833390fippy bippy
>>740847307have you considered not playing bad games like gookcraft
>>740844376You might be the most retarded faggot on the planet.
>>740839292Your entire life is a lie.
>>740847479it's a third party metric from aoe2insights
>>740840890Kyban
This entire thread must be purged.
>>740849416How could you even consider that!?
>>740833342You do, but it's less important than in a lot of other RTS games. Daut stayed relevant for quite a while against dudes half his age with good strategy amd game sense, even while he frequently clearly just gave up on sweaty micro battles went looking on his econ and shit.
>>740845172No, it's not. It's not even close. It would be close if you had to use your mouse to click a different input field intermittently and press 1-9 to select the right keyboard for every few sets of words. That would completely brick most peoples' WPM even AFTER they practice and internalize it.
>>740852634>using control groupsLMAO
>>740852634>mouseBut you don't use mouse while typing, you use HOTKEYS.It takes you long time to do things because you don't know what to do or you're spending time searching the things you want to command. Not because "muh apm". Like if you want to rally and produce new units you can just CTRL+Q/W/E/R to select your production buildings of your choice, right-click on the center of your screen to set new rally point, Q/W/E/R to produce the said unit X times. Then tap your group with all the town centers and press Q a few times to keep your eco running. Then tap 1 again to tap back into your fighting army and click attack ground somewhere. People in lower elo don't micro for shit in fights. It's all macro before micro.Now without hotkeys and plan that can take 10+ seconds easily. With hotkeys and plan we're talking 1-2 seconds.
>>740849416you first blizztroon. has your DEI infested company fixed the massive shit they took on WC3 that ruined even CD copies of it yet?
>muh apm*Clap* play *clap* Stronghold *clap*
>>740833987Fucking rekt lmao
>>740833342>play AoE2 online for the first time after years after just playing with bots>join "newb" server>get stomped in like ten minute>post game map reveal shows my opponent had covered like 2/3s of the map with his buildings>realize how fucking gay this all is>never try it again
>>740833987bodied that freak
>>740833390FPBP
>>740833987Playing vs bots is like using porn and sex toys to get your fill because you're too retarded to do it with someone else.
>>740853772>he fell for the superior player hosted servers memeBro just use the matchmaking.
>>740845668Daut has 0 hours on 4chan, how many do you have?
>>740833342Low apm wasn't that big of a deal before micronerds ruined the game.See daut being competitive despite his abysmal apm way back then
Either you like AoE2 enough to play it or you don't. I don't see the point in debating about any aspect of it really.
Apm is such a nonfactor in aoe2 nowadays. You have select all army, select all idle villagers, select all barracks/castles/etc, autofarm, shift queue to make 5 units a click etc etc. Meanwhile in starcraft you can't hotkey buildings, can't even select more than 12 units at a time so u need 10 ctrlgrps for army, and it's 1 click to make a unit. Calm the fk down
>>740853772>Seal clubbers kill multiplayerNothing new
>>740853860So you prefer doing it with a guy?
>>740837783APM helps micro and shit but then you get retards just clicking nothing like they have ADHD to pad their APM as if that would somehow improve their gameplay.
>>740853420Do you think I use hotkeys to tell my units where to go or what to attack, retard?
didn't aski WILL play singleplayeri WILL cover myself in 50 layers of wallsi WILL build a zillion towers and castlesi WILL hit pop cap, research every technology, and hit over six digits of resources before i even ENTERTAIN the idea of attackingbut most importantly, i WILL have fun.
>>740854092100,000
>>740854849You can just select your whole army and attack-move middle of your screen. That's how it plays below 1k ELO.
RTS multiplayer just has never fulfilled the fantasy for meI don't know how to fix it to get what I want or anything and I don't think anyone else does but build orders are honestly lame as fuck and so is just generally how important speed in the early game game isCompany of Heroes was the only one I got into MP at all for but it still (sorta) had that, I just want something typically long and drawn out not decided 5 minutes into a match. Maybe truly massive maps?
>>740855324Why haven't you played total annihilation or any of its clones?
Why yes, I will be playing another 4v4 match on extra large arena with 3 cpu allies against 4 cpu enemies until the entire map is a bloodbath
>>740855413no major reason except that it honestly just doesn't grab me from anything I've ever seenthe gameplay looks fine but I dunno there's not a unit I've seen or a story hook or any window dressing outside of gameplay that really gets me goingfor me it was originally command and conquer, especially tib sun because of how much I loved the artstyle/world design/several units etc, TA just hasn't ever hooked me outside of people recommending it for being mechanically cool.Been saying I'll try it for ages now but I will sometime when I feel the urge for an RTS
>not just playing with your buddies>not just making cool cities and towns and bleeding the entire map dry of all resources>not just making a giant meat grinder until you run out of resources>not just doing the custom campaigns>unironically playing rankedHoly fucking
>>740855660Comp stomp is the way
>>740855710>Comp stomp is the waytrue which is why the sc2 co-op mode is still crazy active despite having like 12 maps and no dev support for years now
>>740855660>not just watching the AI fight itself by treating the game as a simulation tool like a true autistic freak.
>>740855797used to have so much fun against extreme AI on some chokepoint maps in CoH1 with buddieswe'd roll brits and artillery rape them in a stalemate half the time
>>740855710What makes comp stomp more fun than playing against other players? Or is it just>because I can win every timeAI has no nuances of humans or tactical diversity or errors humans make
>>740855652I mention them because afaik people to like to play big team games on big maps with a lot of units in those games.
>>740854907there are people who do this in ranked we call them "low ELO legends" and they're based
>>740856064It's a blend of both. Hard AIs that don't cheat show how effective resource management can raise armies fast and how sometimes numbers can overpower strategy. And since AI ARE predictable the edge is still in the human's court because we can implement those strategies that AI just won't.
>>740856064It's because I can fuck around and because I don't actually enjoy the metagame against players. I can just relax. We lost against extreme AI sometimes, I don't care so much about winning or losing as long as I can have fun playing instead of having to rush.
>>740844117>Fuck competitive trannies for ruining the rts genrethis, gookclick is what lead to MOBA shit and the death of the entire genre as retard companies chased profits.
>>740856204Blend of what both? AI doesn't have any nuance to it like humans do. Or you meant to say that it can spend resources better lategame? Humans can do that too and they're more likely to produce the correct units unlike the AI which gets its wires crossed the moment there's more than 1 unit type in the field.
>>740856339Are you dumb, by chance? Like, diagnosed?
>>740856268In aoe2 any AI above hard does early attack with archers being the usual choice and it is recommended to play for the early game because AI is very weak at microing and abusing hills. They just sort of keep running their weaker ball into yours while yours keeps getting bigger and bigger.
>>740856427I was referring mostly to CoH there because it's probably where I did most of my compstompingExtreme AI cheats like a bitch there
>>740833390Damn right.
>>740856413Where do they diagnose that?
>>740856168>people say the campaign is the tutorial for the game (biggest lie in RTS history)>bring your campaign tactics that never failed to multiplayer>humiliating loss because the campaign never taught you to harass (AI has infinite resources or fuckhuge forts at the very start of every map) nor how to deal with harassment>if that wasn't enough, get publicly humiliated online by some click-starved e-celeb>"why is RTS multiplayer dead?"it is a mystery
>>740856515>>people say the campaign is the tutorial for the game (biggest lie in RTS history)Who the fuck says that the hundreds of hours of campaigns is a tutorial? There is literally a place in menus called tutorials lmao.
>>740856515Publicly humiliated? Are pros also getting publicly humiliated when people watch them play? In both games there's 1 winner and 1 loser.
>>740856515>>people say the campaign is the tutorial for the game (biggest lie in RTS history)No one said this unless they mean how to actually play the game. Like how to build buildings, progress ages, research technology and maybe a few unit counters. The campaigns are more or less historical edutainment.
>>740856515>humiliating loss because the campaign never taught you to harass (AI has infinite resources or fuckhuge forts at the very start of every map) you know what? this is what I really enjoy about RTS though actually. I like the setup being to take on established bases. Having to build up while enduring attack waves and moving from a foothold to total dominance.MP can't emulate this. Even compstomps don't do it. Has to be co-op campaigns and stuff, you need particular design to make the maps and setups fun.
>>740856515low ELO legends aren't humiliated they are admired because they remind us of the innocent play style we all used to do but they are brave enough to do it in ranked
>>740854797It's more fun like that yeah.
>>740843838
>>740856064It's about the path, not the destination. If you play alone, you can do whatever you want. You can choose a weird specific unit setup to fight with, you can raise an impenetrable stronghold or expand your base through the whole map, you can set personal rules or limitations to play with, or you can just watch your workers gather resources as the waves of enemies crash against your walls. It's a sandbox-ish way to play, yes, but the potential threat from the enemy still remains and you must give it due respect while humoring your fancies.I dearly wish there was an RTS game with a Factorio-style map, where you are in the middle of a vast wasteland filled with potential enemies, where you have to expand outwards and build outposts for resource gathering or simply outlooks for potential attacks, and the further you go and longer you take, the stronger those enemies become, growing into huge city-bases the size of a normal RTS map that, when alerted of your presence, will mobilize all their forces with purpose of extermination.
>>740857989So yes. It allows you to play against opponent so bad that you can play wrong and still win. And because you win in your head it is not playing wrong but akshully giga fun smart strategyz.
>>740853772>Gets shown his skills are severely lacking.>Instead of thirsting for growth and new horizons he throws a tantrum like the eternal child he is.
>>740858086I don't care about playing right or wrong, anon. I don't treat winning a game as an achievement worth pursuing.
>>740857989I too yearn for a very similar game. Factorio based where you set up production lines for your units, combined with people as a resource instead of bots basically. Ideally it wouldn't be against just biters for me though, instead more like just independent factions that also fight against each other. Maybe some factions or something like that, I don't know. But other entities that operate like you and are making based and churning out units. Part of it would be getting more human resources to do things so naturally conquering/securing little towns or whatever and all that. It'd be so cool.
>>740858208Then why do you only play vs bots? You care about winning the most, more than the top players, your ego just can't accept it.
>>740833390
>>740856064Depending on the game it can be infinitely customizable. You can play one-on-one, team games, free-for-all, or everyone against you. You can tweak difficulties and handicaps, use custom maps and scenarios, mods, cheats, pause, save, resume. You can play to win, test how long you can last against unwinnable foes, or make your own goals - the game's your own plaything. Playing against random compfags is guaranteed to go down the same conventional way as always and there's hardly any custom map scene anymore.
>>740857989>You can choose a weird specific unit setup to fight with, you can raise an impenetrable stronghold or expand your base through the whole map, you can set personal rules or limitations to play with,This. Fags in BAR get so mad when you're not following the meta set up for the map and even if it's a noob lobby they say uhm well ackshually a noob should have some idea of the meta.
>>740858607>unwinnableGames today have matchmaking. You win half the time.>but if I don't win every time then I cryyeah
>>740858340Why are you fags so insistent that it's an ego thing? Stop projecting.
>>740840128Yeah if someone mentions gookclick I just know that they're slow both ways.
>>740858702why is it you spend your time trolling on a mongolian basket weaving forum
>>740858814To try to groom people into playing good video games.
>>740857640Well, there is a saying Sweden that goes "Shared joy is double joy"
>>740843948what a mad lad
>>740858752But then why are these people so allergic to the idea of losing half of their matches?
>>740858879saying in Sweden*
>>740858931Because you don't understand how they define gameplay, retard.
>>740833390Basiert.
Like right now if all you sissies just played you could play vs each other and do whatever to fuck you want but yeah not being able to win every game seems to be the problem.
>>740859425people want to play different waysmost people don't know what sort of ruleset they really want to enforce to have fun matches and I think the general vibe is that people want to have long fuckaround matches that don't really need any sort of planningwhy do you care if people play each other? if two people are playing co-op compstomp or if they play 1v1 why do you care exactly
>>740858931>>740858962Here, I'll spell it out for you. It's the same category of person who bitches about zoners in fighting games, getting tunneled in DBD, getting rushed in RTS, or getting counterpicked in a MOBA. In tabletop games they bitch relentlessly about Blue decks in Magic because Blue decks specialize in telling other players "no, you don't get to do that" and they actually have a term that overlaps a lot with this kind of player, the Johnny. The one thing they all have in common is that they define gameplay as 'I do the thing I want'. They do not, under any circumstances, want to not do the thing they want, because to them that's bad gameplay and not playing the game. Sometimes this overlaps with a traditional scrub, but it's more that they play games for self-expression.
>>740859917Then play different ways. Are you telling the AI that now you want it to play differently? No, you just make it so easy that all it does it just exists there and you play with it. And why do I care? Because if everyone adopted your mindset then the game would die and we end up with a future where everyone is playing their roguelite slop to mush their brains.
>>740860081The mindset isn't contagious you fucking moron.
>>740860081what game are you fighting for to be alive? because RTS is fucking dead dude. And honestly this is (part of, the other half is that consoles can't do them for shit) why it's dead, no one's made PVP most people like or evolved the genre meaningfullyyou can't make people like things they don't like, at some point you simply have to realize that people can just dislike things and it isn't a matter of whether they're good or bad at it. You don't want to get good at something you aren't interested in. For plenty of people RTS aren't even a competitive game at all really, you can have fun without the point being win or lose. You can just replay campaign missions and use different things and have fun. The act of amassing an army of your fave units is fun itself. It's weird you only view it through competition.
>>740860416How not? Why do you think that the older, harder games all keep losing players when newer, easier comes appear? Back then you didn't really have a choice what to play, you had to deal with having to learn the old games. Today you can just buy something where you can watch the number go up while pretty effects are happening on the screen.
>>740860493>what game are you fighting for to be alive? because RTS is fucking dead dude.Why do you ask something only to answer it yourself a second later?And you can make your favorite units in multiplayer too. Castle rush is a popular strategy in AOE2 where you just tech to castle and then make your gimmick unique unit. And again, if it isn't about winning or losing then WHY IS LOSING HALF OF YOUR GAMES SUCH A BIG DEAL TO YOU THAT IT STOPS YOU FROM PLAYING.
>>740860546turns out people get tired of things and move onthe passage of time will see all games lose the majority of their playerseasy games existed 20 years ago btw and you had tons of choice in what game to play
I want to play AoE, but I don't like having to kill elephants
>>740860546>Why do you think that the older, harder games all keep losing players when newer, easier comes appear?Because most people don't want to play the same game for 20 years maybe?
>>740860723why do you think it's about losing at all, you're the only one thinking that>rushcool I don't want to do that. I'm not playing RTS to rush, that's the thing bro. Simple as.
>>740860726How can people get tired of something they never played to begin with? Newer generations have far less interest in RTS (for example) because their baseline dopamine has been set much higher by the games of their own time. The old games are mostly played by the older people.
>>740860778Castle rush just means managing your base and teching up for 15 minutes. It doesn't mean moving your zergs into the enemy base in the first 2 minutes.
>>740860546Because it's a property of player taxonomies which don't change over time. Your complaint is with the difficulty of actually learning the game, which was always a problem because only one type of player will ever get over that hill, except RTS tested multiple skills at once and immediately fucked you in the ass if you were lacking in any of them. THAT is why MOBAs actually took off, not because they're easy to learn, but because a player can select which combination of micro, macro, and multitasking they're comfortable with and roll with it by picking a hero within that band.
>>740860723I literally explained it right to your face. I can't help you if you have autism and no theory of mind at all, man.
>>740833390based
>>740860814that's not even true to begin with and you're really revealing you're just a little retard but yeah no shit. old games are mostly played by old people who played games of that era. This is literally how it works. Most old movies go unwatched too by newer generations. Most old books. Everything. Most people aren't actually playing most old games.
>>740860964Doesn't matter how much something fucks you in the ass if the game is 1v1. There can only be 1 winner and 1 lose. Even if the game was made for literal 3 year olds, only 1 person will win and 1 lose. The amount of fucking is the same.
>>740860920I don't want timers like that man. I don't want to think about time. I want long games that take an hour or more.
>>740861075>Doesn't matter how much something fucks you in the ass if the game is 1v1Tell that to RTSes getting their playerbase sniped right out from underneath them.
>>740861040Yes, because the new things are more stimulating and have lower barrier of entry and better accessibility because the competition between the products and services is fierce. Yes that is literally how it works. And?
>>740858450Literally me on the right>play against moderate AI>4 player free for all>build up defensively with 2 castles at the only choke point to get to me>make 10 castle units max>kill the small squad the lead AI send to me after it beats the other two>go outside base and hit the wall of a building that AI made near me>it resigns
>>740833390GigabasedOnliniggers in shambles
>>740861201not all new things are overstimulation dopamine destroyers and you should stop talking like a clown
>>740861176You can read about that in other posts like >>740860546 (You) and >>740861201
>>740861338name 67 things
>>740861279>>740861367>THIS desperate to repost your own postskek
>>740861367MOBAs aren't easier than RTS to learn and aren't much easier competitively either. Think of it this way, what's going to appeal to more people: the game that rewards having micro, macro, and multitasking skill but split among a team, or the game that rewards only one guy having micro, macro, and multitasking skill all at once?
>>740833390>play warzone2100>found multiplayer still full of high oil flat maps and some other meta shit>go back to fighting skirmish nexus(insane) ais
>>740861653The one where you can always blame someone else and feel like you never really lost a game.
>>740861732Drop the superiority complex and actually think about incentives, faggot.
>>740854832yeah Hera does this and it's annoying when watching his videoslike bro, you do not need to mash your town center hotkey 5 times every 3 secondsstop it
>>740861732so RTS? most RTS let you play 2v2/3v3/4v4 and multi-team
The goal is not to win, the more important primary objective is to not lose.
>>740861863And what is that? I believe that for most people the incentive of playing a game is to make yourself feel better, get enjoyment. These new games are much better at accomplishing that than the old so it is no mystery that they are getting played (and made) less and less.
>>740833342I'm gonna make an RTS where the AI is fully exposed to the player and you just pick which troops/building/resource is affected to which AI task and which ones you want to handle personally.And yes that mean you can just let your AI handle everything except one random-ass tank you will micro the fuck out. If you can win like that then your opponent deserved to lose.
>>740861934But new games do it better. That is why 2v2/3v3/4v4 has much less players now and in many games are just dead gamemodes. They moved into the new games that give them more what they want.
>>740862158you should also design it so that you can preselect base layouts and they get automatically built or spawned in as suchlet me have a basic framework base that I might customize per mapthat'd be dope
>>740862205you're just whining that people don't play old thingsget over it man
>>740833390based and in charge of your own life-pilled
>>740862131>These new games are much better at accomplishing that than the oldFor a larger variety of people. That's the key difference.
I don't WANT to just play RTS. I don't want to learn build orders, proper econ management, strengths and weaknesses of a factions and units, when to explore, when to skirmish and when to build up, to pay attention to the movements of others, to lock them out from resources while responding to their attacks, I don't want to do all that. I am sure there are people who find RTS gameplay in itself interesting and want to do all that and get better at that, but I don't. I don't even care for building bases and units all that much. What I want is a campaign with interesting maps and missions, both normal and gimmick, that ultimately can be simplified to a puzzle, along with a plot that sucks me off as the best general to ever live that changes the tide of the war. You can add other appealing power fantasy and/or high-production things as necessary.
Dead genre
>>740862331I am not whining, I am reasoning. Giving you the reasons why the things are how they are. I even just praised newer games depending on your needs. People play one game over another because it fulfils their needs better.
>>740862698all you've been doing is whining about people not playing RTS how you want
>>740861732Fuck's sake, quit spouting this tired shit. 600 million people play chess regularly. Pure 1v1 game, can never lose to anything other than your own decisions. You sound like someone whining about CS killing Quake.
>>740839292If you see someone playing solo chess in a public space that's an open challenge. That old man is waiting for someone to step up and play a game or two. Why don't you play? Afraid you'll get trounced? Scared that you'll have a pleasant conversation with a stranger? Terrified that he'll introduce you to his granddaughter and you'll end up with a wife that loves you, four kids and an extended family that you get along with?
>>740862256Haven't done much planning for the base-building side (still hesitating between classic C&C one or some Halo Wars variant) but will do.
>>740833390Based. Competitive fags in shambles
>>740862971God yes, that's terrifying
>>740862961I don't think that most chess players play CSGO, POE or idle games. And is that 600 million counting every person who knows what chess is? That would mean that every 13th person you meet is a chess player.
>>740863246No. 600 million regular players worldwide.
>>740863290Based on what?
>>740839292>Folding chess set>Tourist table>Portable chair>PipeYep, all set.
>>740862838Anon you can play the game however you want but the problem is that you aren't playing the fucking game at all nigger. You're just fantasising and inventing excuses in your head why it's actually good choice to never play the game and everyone suggesting otherwise is just a subhuman.
i tried to play rus in aoe4 but i got overwhelmed trying to hunt on two scouts while also building my base and armies
>>740863321FIDE survey data from 2012.
>>740863517but you're the one insulting people for not playing pvpanyone playing the game at all is better than demanding people play one modestop being a faggot for once in your life
>>740863740>The Methodology: YouGov polled representative adult samples across key countries to determine the frequency of play. It was discovered that a staggering 70% of the adult population in the surveyed countries had played chess at some point in their lives>AT SOME POINT IN THEIR LIVES
>>740863926No niggerfaggot we all know you and the rest are just larping like you play the game but you don't. If there's so many people playing vs AI then where the fuck are all the cool scenarios and content for that? It's just words, no actions.
>>740839292Many years too late faggothttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMVtpCPx8ow
>>740864026idk I don't have the autism to make my own scenariosI just liked command and conquer bro it's not that deep
>>740864026>If there's so many people playing vs AI then where the fuck are all the cool scenarios and content for that?Have you not seen the insanely huge list of AoE 2 campaigns that is regularly added to, including Chronicles which are more story focused campaigns?Or AoE 4's continuing expansions?Or DoW 4?Of course you haven't because you're a dumb faggot
>>740864026Like what, Warcraft 3 custom campaigns and singleplayer maps? Mods with custom campagins? I recall there being plenty of those?
>>740864271Yes I've seen the campaigns and new civs that people just complaing about being lazy slop or with op bonuses. They're there just to make money from people who wanna hunt achievements.
>>740844890UHHH SCOUTING WASTES RESOURCES
>>740864624Yes Warcraft 3 was a good example where it legit had community built around that. But in some other games like idk aoe2 or command and conquer? Bro there's nothing but people jerking off to nostalgia.
>>740864782>posting random reviews without showing what DLC its forNice try fag
>>740864895Could be the fact that those games aren't nearly as user friendly in terms of making your own content.
>>740864895>why are people making a lot of stuff for WC3, a game with tools that facilitate doing so, but not AoE2, a game without tools like thatYou're really not very smart.
>>740864853yeah maybe man but it would tell me if i was getting rushed which was the only thing that really posed a threat most games
>>740865115But where are the players who play single player? They only talk about playing it.>>740865000Only the first DLCs were good. It should be obvious what the M$ intentions are.
>>740865316BUT YOU'LL BE LIKE 2 UNITS BEHIND THOSE THAT DIDN'T SCOUT
>>740863128You need to face your fears, lest you wallow in misery the rest of your life.
>>740865478my macro > their macroguys will stop playing the game to look at fights all the way up until master
Never played an AoE before. Should I just play 2 and Mythology?Is the remaster good or should I play original?
seeing this thread makes me understand why the US is getting roflstomped in every war they went in after WWII (and they also got their ass beat on that one too), you guys are massive faggots lol.
>>7408672572 is the best rts ever made, the definitive edition is pretty good and it also adds 100 of hours of extra campaigns
>>740833342>the most insufferable discussions about RTS are always related to multiplayerlol
>>740869254>Make thread about Racing games>bunch of retards comes in and goes "NOOOO I WANT TO DRIVE ON THE SPEED LIMIT AND STOP ON EVERY SIGN AND LIGHT11!!"that is how you faggots sound like
>>740833342you don't need to be a top .1% player
>>740869367You're so mentally stunted you have no idea how retarded that analogy is
>>740833342i got platinum mmr in starcraft 2 with only 100 apm and a month of watching outdated tutorials and practicing macro in training
It's funny cause I'm on the opposite spectrum, I can play really fast but I refuse to engage in any sort of meta or "builds" or anything even remotely close to playing optimally (apart from opening with 2 houses and boars) hence the reason I never play multiplayer, fuck any of the shitters engaging in this nonsense.
>>740869445do I need to go back in the thread and show you dozens of posts with "I don't wanna play multiplayer because I want to make pretty cities and castles and don't wanna get attacked" faggotry?
I played Dawn of War 1 recently and really enjoyed it, but I also thought about how insufferable the multiplayer in that game must be.
>>740869546Most people just play campaigns and skirmish though.This thread is the same every single time it's made, insufferable PvP fags, chill campaign and skirmish players, and city builders arguing about the same exact shit over and over again.
>>740862971>that loves you,Wrong genre, chess is a strategy game not high fantasy.
>>740840128Crying about Asians is so funny as well since the entirety of Asia just plays mobileshit now and the best RTS players are all European.Like why hate Online so much?RTS games are and always have been about multiplayer. Anyone saying otherwise is coping hard.People were having LAN parties in the 90’s to play together all the time and games even would come with demo copies to give to your friends so you could play in skirmish together.
>>740840428>at high ranksOk, are you high rank? If you aren’t and don’t want to be why do you care?“Oh the best players in the world are like really really good!!”Yea lol, so?The best soccer players in the world are way better than you can ever hope to be no matter what, are you upset about that as well?
>>740869910>RTS games are and always have been about multiplayer. Anyone saying otherwise is coping hard.you're the one coping without realising, 80-90% of players for any given RTS will play campaign and never play multiplayer
So why hate online?>MUH KOREANS!koreans don’t play RTS anymore>MUH SWEATY APM CHUDS!practically no RTS actually requires some crazy high APM to be competent>MUH STRICT METAbuild orders are hardly complicated and matter much less after the first minute or two of a game, you can learn them probably after 1 game>NO FUN ALLOWED!!most people play casual lobbies and there are tons of different maps and game modes which are popular which enable all sorts of more loose and fun playstyles>MUH TOXIC PLAYERS!!Grow a spine faggot, who cares if someone is raging at you?
>>740856515Yeah, SP and MP are worlds apart, basically separate games. Even devs now prefer to focus on one or the other because it's hard to cater to both.
I have shitty APM, but still, getting into multiplayer revitalized my interest in RTS games. I think a lot of people are missing out because they have some kind of bias against RTS MP.
Tips for the second Edward Lingshanks mission on Hard? No TC, so I cant eco boom and the brown horde just swarms me.
>>740847307If you have 15 APM than just accept you will be low elo and do your own thing.Why are you so ashamed for being “bad” at a game instead of just playing casual mode and not caring?
>>740870227yeah I think the hardcore RTS scene really hurt RTS multiplayer, there are so many shitty players to play against and have a good time trying to make your own pet build work
>>740847307150 APM is glacial, most people can easily do that without thinking, it sounds like a lot but it isn'tbut also gumigod won a tournament game with 185 apm
>>740870227People who play single player strategy games unironically have huge egos and losing a mp game once or twice is enough to mindbreak them into hating multiplayer for the rest of their lives
>>740853772This dude builds 20 villagers and then sends out a knight ball in Castle age Unironically play ranked and just do whatever against low ELO playersThere are like 1 ELO players out there who just resign if you attack them at all.
>>740854113Micro has been a thing since C&C 1
>>740870482It's more so that singleplayer and multiplayer are very different games.
>>740833342In RTS, a good strategic sense >> how fast you can click your mouse and keyboard.As Sun Tzu once said, "Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. But tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
>>740870069>build orders are hardly complicated and matter much less after the first minute or two of a game, you can learn them probably after 1 gameBullshit, there's a world's difference between a tryharding faggot optimizing for a fast castle or a feudal rush vs anyone that's taking it casually without actually mouthbreathing, on the contrary if I manage to beat your try hard meta shit by just playing normally it means you are so incredibly bad and stupid that you managed to lose to somebody that isn't even trying and / or you are moving incredibly slow.I am naturally fast but I don't give a shit about any build order or scouting manually or peasant ratios or timings, in fact if I don't play against extreme AI I don't even make more than 1TC and mostly rely on micro to keep whatever army I have alive and effective for as long as possible. This puts me in a massive disadvantage against anyone even remotely competent that's also doing meta shit, it's even more apparent in a game like Warcraft 3, with Starcraft being the only game where it didn't really make a difference up until past Diamond (or C+ for Broodwar) because it didn't matter how good your build orders were and how cutting edge on the meta you were if you can't even move your Dragoons off the ramp or die to mass zealot as Zerg early game cause you can't micro for shit.
>>740833390Considering AoE2 is still getting campaign DLC I'd say you're not in the minority.
>>740859917>people want to play different waysMost of the people ITT want a totally passive effortless experience against easy AIAlso how many of you even play?When is the last time you played an RTS?
Clicking fast = funIt's crazy how keyboardlets still don't understand this.
>>740838302This is not a bad approach because it lets you balance the two separately.
>>740833342If "fog of war" makes you piss your pants, then don't even bother. APM is way less important.
>>740840856aww fuck
>>740862632>I don’t like anything about RTS games and expect them to cater to my tastes.>>740862683RTS games are fine honestly, there are lots of healthy games out there and more than enough players.
>>740833342Gookclick is not RTS. It's gookclick. Any 'rts' game that can be won by adhd clickspam isn't good.
>>740870759>bro what do you MEAN I have to actually have a plan going into this game???Sounds more like you're just upset that you can't just aimlessly meander about building a sprinkle of units and NOT get stomped by someone executing an actual gameplan.You anti-buildorder retards are always the most retarded. Like what do you even want from the game? Do away with tech-paths and resource costs and build-timers?
>>74087002890% of RTS “fans” will play 1 mission and quit forever, maybe at most play some skirmish matches against very easy AI so they can mindlessly crush them.
>>740871186>tech-pathsYes.>resource costsNo.>build timersWith no ability to influence them? Yes.
>>740837783Depends on the game. Brood War even at "decent" skill level is impossible to play without 200+ APM for like Terrans. Same with SC2, stutter-stepping is essentially adding 200 apm on top of your current apm just to competently use Marines.Any rts with base-building basically requires 100+ apm which sounds low but filters 90% of gamers which is why games like ASS FAGGOTS replaced rts's for a decade.That said, SC2 and AOE2 have a large enough population that game knowledge and build orders determine wins / losses far more than being able to gook-click faster than the other guy.You can easily get to platinum in SC2 by just knowing how to effectively use units and counter the other guy's build with like a 120 apm.
>>740870759Learning basic build orders is easy and if you don’t like it there are plenty of custom maps for every game that hard-stop early rushes like Michi or amazon tunnel for example in AoE2Learning how to have a basic plan instead of just mindlessly doing whatever is not very hard or insense.
>>740833342So anyway, Stronghold 4 is coming.
>>740847307Well that's just SC2. It's a stupidly punishing game designed for hype moments and aura over pleasant gameplay.
>>740871186>>740871541I am old enough to know what multiplayer looked like before streaming and pro scenes being larger than mom's basement LAN party tier, the average Joe tried to come up with their own gameplan and the games were generally more unique, how low ELO do you have to be to see mass Teutonic Knights marched across the map and not some proxied fast castle shit? I am willing to bet it's under 1k, if it even happens at all...Players were on average a lot worse but also made for more fun and dynamic games. Even at the height of the Broodwar eSports the taint didn't reach the average player and whoever copied the pro players jumped ahead on the ladder and you never saw them again, which is fine cause I don't have a problem with anyone trying to be good at the game but when every loser that can't win in life with anything is plugging that hole with online vidya is when I just throw in the towel.All you are doing is optimizing the fun out of the game, you are not smart nor you are special, unless you came up with your own builds in which case anything I wrote clearly doesn't apply to you.
Campaign is just the appetizer for any RTS.Multiplayer is the main course,and skirmish is the desert.
>>740837783He's like 45-60 in one of the most forgiving games of low APM out there and the strategies he can pick from are very severely limited because of his APM. Not helping your case.
>>740833342>>740833390The campaigns where it was at
>>740871141I don't expect anything, which is why I rarely play RTS. I would love it if someone made a game more to my tastes, though.
>>740871721>boo hoo people are generally better now than 30 years agoWhat’s your point guy? You want to literally do nothing, make 10 units and attack-move them into the enemy base to win?Yea it’s too bad that shit doesn’t fly anymore buddy, but that’s every single game aside from animal crossing so maybe get used to it.Is it that objectionable to put some effort into a game?
>>740871594Did they just skip over strongholds 2 and 3?
>>740871721Reminds me of AoE4 on launch where, after enough games, I would just blind-counter the French knight fast aggression as soon as I saw the other guy was France. Won dozens of games in a row a night until I finally got high enough elo to encounter fun again.Games are like an IQ bell-curve where the center midwits down know how to have fun and only care about winning and both ends are super-minorities of people I actually enjoy playing with.
>>740871868>I don’t play RTS games and haven’t touched them in 20 years but HERE is the problem with RTS games todayYea whatever budFor all of you here, what is the last RTS you DID play? I just played some OpenRA matches this morning and a game of BAR a few hours ago.
>>740871959I sure did.
>>740872105I played a match of ProTA earlier with a hard bot. Got my ass stomped in because 4x resources with an AI profile that picks better units is actually really fucking hard.
>>740871935NTA but I prefer those hour-long games where it's a slugfest with weird builds over me countering your early aggression and getting a bitch-out and victory screen because 'le waste of time playing lost game' mentality.
>>740872105I am not saying it's a problem, you nitwit. RTS genre is doing fine for what it is and has its players, I am just not one of them. However, I do wish for a different take and think it would be successful.
>>740836209are bohemians good?
>>740871721Yes people are better at the games now. The bar for entry is higher if you want to be higher ranked than gold or whatever the equivalent rank is in your preferred RTS of choice.You either continue flailing about like the clueless retard we all were back in the early days and accept your place in bronze or you nut up and LEARN THE GAME and play it at a competent level.Just stop blaiming it on fucking build orders.
>>740872426they're ok
>>740872568Why shouldn't he blame it on build orders, if his problem is decision tree collapse?
>go play one last ranked game for the night>crazy autist with an insane specific build makes it last 6 hourshttps://youtu.be/aKOTVn5eDZs
>>740869752So sorry for your disability, anon.
>>740871935>>740872568My average game goes like this and only changes slightly if i go against extreme AI: one peasant builds a house, the others go for sheep, scout goes on auto after I find the nearby sheep and boars, set 1 to wood every 4 ish peasants that go to food, go to feudal after 20+ peasants, castle age after about 35 while the resource distribution depends on whether I want to build my castle inside the base or proxied (for the latter I get stone earlier).That's it, everything else is purely reactive. The army I build depends on both my mood and whatever I'm playing against (so no I won't make archers if i play against Goths). But I suppose this is "nothing" when I don't plan for multiple TC boom shit or fast archer rushes or laming enemy boars or sim cities around the wood line or gold or any sort of fucking nonsense I have to do in order to prevent dying to anyone even remotely fast and tuned into the meta.If that's what you call planning for a game then I'll just stay in my lane moisturized against the AI while you can have each other on the ladder cause you deserve each other.>>740872101I know anon and I'm sure a lot of these niggers do to but I have a feeling they just try to get whatever "win" they can out of life.
>>740861928>anon's average TC iddle time 30 minutes
>>740833987This nigga played princess with the girls lmao
>>740872924I seriously don't understand what you're even trying to say at this point.Build order bad, but you're following a build order yourself. Curious.
>>740870661If you lost 50% of your singleplayer bot games would you still enjoy them? big doubt. You probably save and restart if things don't go your way.
RTS games have their audience, and it's mostly people who enjoy the Multiplayer aspect.The people who DIDN’T like multiplayer all left decades ago now, and people who unironically cry about “gookclick” in 2026 are larpers since Asians don’t play RTS anymore.Unless you are playing some mobile game or Gachashit you don’t need to worry about Koreans or whatever.
>>740871721it's the same problem as chess, you need a lot more opening rote knowledge to be competitive now than before
>>740872924Like the other anon said: wtf are you even trying to say??That's how even the best players play. They start with the most optimal way and then branch out as the game goes. They don't just set in stone that they will do this unit at this minute and then do this that. No. You have opponent, and the maps aren't fixed. You have to play according to the situation.
>>740873328Yea this, how many of these “singleplayer” enjoyers will refuse to savescum/cheat or not just give up when a mission is “too hard” Looking at steam achievements at least for all my steam RTS games, not a single one has even a third of players finishing the campaign at all on any difficulty.For hard single-player achievements it’s like single digits usually.So either these people just don’t play at all or they exclusively play lazy comp-stomps against easy AI
>>740871721>below 1kI am 750 and this is my queue time. Go play and stop being such a bitch because you can't win every game.
>>740857797What do you do when a Protoss tries to slip his cannon in your backside?
>>740873430TrueYea perhaps games in the 18th century when people would do absolute bullshit were more “interesting”, but so what? You can’t expect people to just play like that forever to suit your hatred of growth.If you want a more “dynamic” game play an alternate mode, like fairy chess or blitz.Same with RTS, custom maps exist to fulfill every sort of play, not every map is an open 1v1 arabia clone.Even ranked AoE2 has tons of varied maps rotating with different focuses like nomad, naval, defensive, and so on.
>>740873854I started having thoughts on how abusive people are against AI already when I was like 10 and playing Crash Bash and Crash Team Racing vs bots. Because like every time you had something not go your way you could just restart. Got unlucky and bots focus fired you? Uhhhh just pause and restart lol. But the bots, they would never restart. They can't. It's 7 other players and they never restart if they are unlucky. Hell they didn't even have access to the most powerful items. They just take it to the ass while you are the main character.Then this same player who had just spammed restart and abused bots all their life jumps into multiplayer and starts crying how everyone is tryhard because turns out they aren't the main character anymore. buhhhhh
>>740842165Blizztroons everyone, the same disease also in FGC flavor too.
>>740842165We've had both but honestly wc3 threads are stupider because it's just retards talking about muh reforged muh blizzard and not about the game itself.
>>740873327But notice how it's a build order I came up with myself and nothing to do with meta cause if you play meta you have to open with 2 houses, and the food-wood ratio changes based on map and civ, plus this is not a complete build order but simply an opening, if the majority of the ladder players did the same and stopped copying [new or effective thing] once they entered feudal then we wouldn't even be having this conversation, but we both know that's not the case.>I seriously don't understand what you're even trying to say at this point.Some of us are human and want to have fun first, while winning comes second. It is not fun to see the same shit with even the same building placements even in triple digit ELO because [popular streamer] or [heckin tournament]>>740873614Yes my dude, surely the pro players stop the min maxing after the opening and it's all purely reactive. So show me all these pro vs pro games where one went mass teutonic knights while the other did mass longbow men, where not a single mangonel was built, where they actually build walls, where they made a tower instead of sim city-ing the gold with palisades... oh wait you can't cause then they'd be automatically behind economically or flat out throw the game away, minus showmatches and other fun shit they'd put up for the fans.>but they are pro so they will inevita-Ok and that's fine but even when a 750 shitter like >>740873874 is probably trying to do the same thing it's when depression starts to hit you if you are a human being. After all this posting you still don't understand it's not about winning so maybe I'm just wasting my time.
>not playing the best age of empiresThe private server is free, works perfectly and has new content. No excuses!
>>740874447What is it about then?>I want to make bad decisions (on purpose) and still winsounds like it's about winning, because you're always free to make bad decisions but winning isn't guaranteed. (even thought it still is as long as you tank enough elo and make up for it through micro or some other metrics than tactics)
I don't know why you people bother to comment while knowing shit all about different player types. People who swear off MP aren't egotists or competitive players who just couldn't hack it and git gud and would just 'get it' the moment they put themselves through the work, they're people with completely different player psychological profiles than competitive players.
>>740874447>build order good if self-discoveredWhat an inane point.
>>740874447You can play your own custom build if you also accept you will be sub-100 elo and play against similar meme tier builds and players
>>740875024It's actually not.
>>740874447>WHY CAN’T I JUST GO MASS KNIGHTBALLyou can, you just won’t be a “pro” or win very oftenIf you don’t care about winning than what’s the problem? Eventually you will find a good casual lobby or drop in ELO enough and find people doing the same shit anyway.
>>740833390I used to play enhanced edition or whatever with my mates in something we called "comfy mode" where we built cities and role-played
>>740874891>>740875124So I was wasting my time indeed. Seeing the same fast castle knight rush 80% of the games (at least that's how it was a few years ago, maybe nowdays it's a different kind of cancer) is infinitely more depressing (even when winning) than losing 10 in a row against something different each time.But seeing how after so many posts you still couldn't grasp the core issue I am now convinced you are soulless golems and possibly even brown and this conversation is over.
>>740875161Actually it is.Maybe post a condescending troon alongside your post next time.RTS are inherently about doing things in an optimal way. It is the core foundation of RTS.Following someone's build order or figuring out your own doesn't change that fact that you are following a build order to arrive at a stage in the game in an optimal way.
>>740870980If I remember correctly she helped in creating extra villagers if you put her in a house with vacant slots.
>>740875434>core issue is people follow set builds when they are mid-low elo to get betterPlay however you like and you will drop in elo and face similar people, or play custom lobbies on maps that promote a specific playstyle you prefer.It’s a very easy issue to solve, unless your issue is that competition and meta exists which you don’t want to interact with but also want validation from.
>>740875434Go fight them early and force them to start playing. Even if you don't play the game right now there is some streamer tourney thing going on (which is probably a reason why there's more of these threads) and it's a proof that there isn't that many fast castle games. Unless it's on arena. Holy shit arena is a stupid map.
>>740875434Here. I'm not them, and I'll explain it.It's about self-discovery of game mechanics having some level of value when you play the game instead of consigning you to the trash bin, because expressing yourself through the game matters. It's about having varied matches instead of seeing the same opening into midgame every match and about avoiding decision collapse.
>>740875496Actually it's not. You don't have enough knowledge of game design to understand that, though, because you're looking at it through a singular competitive lens.
>>740875791Just play a different map type then.Like fr if you hate people playing strict openings play Nomad or something
>>740875875Uh oh. Self-report.Look man, it's fine that you're some bronze-level gamer. Just stop saying dumb shit, alright?
>>740875496>winning in games is about doing the things better than your opponentwow really? But you see, there is no one path you can just copy. You need to play differently based on situation which can be influenced by the map and enemy, factors you have no control over.
>>740876087It's not dumb shit, it's you completely misunderstanding game design.
>>740875791Learn micro if you wanna express yourself. Or lean into a specific build archetype, some players like playing certain units or civs/races more than others, or they like to play longer or shorter games, or they're better at fighting than eco. See that's already plenty of player expression that can separate players from just bots that follow same patterns.
>>740833390same, unless im doing some coop vs ai with the homie
>>740876180Strict build orders are to help learners get the hang of strategy, so they have an easy path to follow while they worry about other things.You only see this sort of build absolutism among learners because it’s a good way to improve your overall play.I don’t see the issue with that.Is it a problem that you are not winning games with the same strategy as a 10 year old in the 90’s? Sorry but times change and if you care so much you can always play custom matches which most people do anyway.
>>740876180>But you see, there is no one path you can just copyNo, but there are fixed paths you can take that are more or less optimal in regards to what you're trying to achieve.>>740876301>It's not dumb shitIt's absolute garbage actually.And you're even more retarded for trying to make the case that RTS is not about optimization as a core foundation.
>>740876346You don't get it either.
>>740875584if the meta is doing the exact same shit every single match then maybe it's a dogshit meta and everyone who participates in it should kill themselves for being boring ass faggots
>>740876554We have multiple people on the case and we're not one step closer to understanding what you're trying to say.At what point will you perhaps do a little introspection and realize maybe you're not making a lot of sense?
>>740876454Nope, not garbage, a fact given different player types. Sorry.
>>740839292sounds comfy, sucks to be you
>>740875791And I was trying to make the point across (maybe badly) that people are simply different now, fundamentally they lost the ability to have fun. Stop thinking about RTS for a second and look at other game genres, when Classic WoW came out I was excited and went into it full of hope and joy, by level 50 I quit and never returned because everyone wanted to do [effective thing]. I couldn't find a single dungeon group that didn't want to min-max fast clear for levels, when all I wanted to do is see them from A to Z all over again and do all the quests inside, I was even healing with my priest even though I was shadow spec and had to blow a lot of my own money on consumables to stay sustainable but it was simply in vain.It was the same thing in MOBAs like LoL or Dota, with everything I've highlighted so far being more apparent since you only had to control one unit on one map, I managed a 4k rating by going mid with almost anything (back when pro player ELOs started at 5k) and close to half the games I had to fight with shitters that insisted they go with their shitty Pudge instead or niggers generally questioning my choices. My question then is, how absolutely awful you are at the game if you lose mid lane to some random Lycan or Broodmother mid with your cookie cutter meta build, are you the awful one or I am the god that needs to go to higher ELO?Look at the replies and it's all a form of: you are free to do anything bro! while completely ignoring (whether out of sheer obliviousness or malice) that the landscape completely changed and the freedom of today is not the same as the freedom of yesterday.
>>740876623You’re like someone crying because they can’t just do their fried liver attack in chessIf you don’t like the meta at your current ELO, either get better to face people who don’t need to follow strict builds, or lower your ELO and play against meme strats only.Otherwise play custom games and do whatever.
>>740876820>you are free to do anything bro!How are you not free to do anything?
>>740876623Well I have good news for you: that isn't the meta. You have rock-paper-scissor units that can do 3x damage to their counter. You cannot get away with just 1 thing unless it's very low elo or sandbagging. And you can attack early or late, both have their advantages but ofc some players are better at different areas of the game.
>>740871841no it wasn't, and even then most "campaigns" are just you playing against the AI larping as an human player anyway.C&C, the very first big RTS already had a big focus on multiplayer.
>>740876664The only reason you can't understand me is because you absolute retards put players in two boxes, competitive and non-competitive, and view the latter as competitive players who are just shittier at the game. That's not how anything works. What I've said is very clear.
>>740877135I think you're making up a scenario in your head again.
>>740876820What’s stopping you from playing custom matches with whatever setup you want?>no one wants to have fun anymore boo hooYea wow a 30yo game and most people don’t want to play it like they did back thenIf you want to fuck around you are also not entitled to being in the “pro” leagues. In vanilla WoW only a tiny minority did raids, and today in classic only a tiny minority do raids.It’s optional content and if you don’t like it then don’t play it, sure you won’t have too gear but that’s the trade-off.
>>740877037It also had a big focus on the campaign, dumbass.
>>740876820Pros still play whatever in mid in pubs. Your ego is just hurt that you're no longer good and trying to protect itself in a way that isn't productive for your long-term mental wellbeing.
>>740877239I'm not, because I'm not the one who didn't understand the difference between a self-discovered build order and a build order copied off of the internet.
>>740877317It had both but multiplayer was a big selling point and a focus of development.C&C came with 2 disks so you could share one with your friend and play MP with them.
>>740877374For the last fucking time, it's not an ego thing.
>>740877374Yea fr if you want to play a meme strat or a hyper specific playstyle, you can just join a custom lobby that suits it.Tons of players just play amazon tunnel or michi or islands all the time.
>>740877317literally every RTS back then would have in giant letters in the box "SUPPORT X PLAYERS IN IP/IPX MULTIPLAYER".Doom made multiplayer on PC gaming pretty much mandatory, if you didn't put it in your game you were screwed.Campaign was something you played when there were nobody for you to play against.
>>740865115shit, even DOW 1 has single-player and players vs AI teams content. there's a survival map for every map size.
>>740877541Then why are you making these scenarios in your head to defend it? You played mid with random ass heroes because you were better than your enemies. Now you can't because you're no longer good. But you spin it in a way that it's actually the game's fault. I was like that too. I used to play mid whatever the fuck I wanted and had good results. But then I got old and slow and could no longer just have it my way so I started playing more and more support.
>>740876820See, you say that, but in 2005 I outright hated WoW because it had the prescriptive play typical of theme park MMOs. Go through these zones in this order, do these menial tasks, grind these mobs, or you don't get to do anything else because you won't have the levels. It was stifling as fuck because the quests sucked so much ass.
>>740877541Don't bother replying, they literally lack basic reading comprehension. Initially I thought they were AI chatbots but even the lowest of the low are not as awful at reading the context given to them. Either that or engagement trolls, but the thread's already getting enough attention so I don't see why they'd need to keep it alive.
>>740877865You will never get that confession out of him. Fact is no one will bitch about random goofy builds if they work.
>>740877865I'm not. That's a different anon's scenario.
>another condescendingtroon.jpg
I know it's already been said but why do you guys care so much about APM when none of you play at the level where it matters? If you play at 60 APM you'll eventually lose to the point where you only match with other shitters.
>>740840428and the funny thing its easily solvable issue. Devs just need to add bake up time so your units need to sit still for a second before firing.>>740840505nobody wants to play pure strategy games. Not even Supreme Commander refrained from adding active abilities
>>740878002you are either lying or you always hated MMOs in the first place, because WoW was a million times better than all other from the time, there is a reason they had 10+ million players back then.
>>740878243Reading the posts ITT it’s mostly bitter oldfags who “used to be good” 20y ago with random bullshit even everyone else was bad at the game, now that the skill floor has moved up and they haven’t, they feel personally attacked.>but muh build varietyMono-builds is a symptom of low-mid ranks where people are still learning the game. You will never ever have a game ever again where meta doesn’t exist because the internet is ubiquitous now.
>>740858614Just build cannons and cannon related accessories and bombard the living shit of another player
>>740878243It's literally just cope on their end.
>>740878374How could I have always hated MMOs when I was playing them before Everquest just fine?
>>740833342>bar
>>740878528Yea fucking love this in BAR, just rolling up their base with my massive artillery way out of their sight range.
>thread full of people who hate RTSWhy do you even care about the genre if you dislike everything about it?For me, been playing modded Dune2000 a lot recently on OpenRA and unironically it really is such a peak RTS.S
>>740878140God I wish. I remember playing League with a gimmick bottom lane that top was sperging about in select, AD Kennen and support Veigar, this was years before people figured out you could take mages bottom as supports, we won our lane easy, lost the match due to reasons that had nothing to do with our lane, and then top threw a huge fit and fucking reported my lanemate after the match and got him banned.
>>740833342I played the day before yesterday Tempest Rising and quite liked it but it's too expensive for me to buy it even though I can see it has some love poured into itThen yesterday with dusted off some AoE4 because Vikings are finally coming and I want to be ready for thatI play RTS almost daily and I love them even though I wouldn't say i'm good, but I aint a lil bitch tho and play MP every time. I revel in learning.And yeah you don't really need high APM in most of these games, just not being brain dead or paulsy and you'll be fine. They're action games as well you know.
>>740839292I played a game where a guy rushed feudal, spammed scouts, and micro'd down my villagers. That is so fucking gay and lame, I never played the multiplayer again.
>>740879131I don't hate RTS I hate fans of RTS. Like how I love LOTR but would pull the trigger on a gun if I ever met another fan of LOTR or if I saw someone proclaim in no ironic fashion that they browse 4chan.
>>740879349>rushed feudalLiterally everyone "rushes" feudal and a loomed villager beats a scout and spearmen do PLUS FUCKING FIFTEEN damage against horses. But I guess you didn't have the brai- I mean korean apm to do that.
>>740879156You didn't win and if you buddy got banned, he already had quite the rep sheet. "Played Veigar bot" alone won't get you banned.
>>740879349/v/ when they lose once
>>740879637People would report you for all sorts of shit when the tribunal was still a thing. Off meta reports happened all the time.
>>740879867You are assuming you're talking with someone that's acting in good faith, you are mistaken and most certainly are wasting your time.
>>740879494I know how to play the game. >Just fight with vilsThey micro the scout you fight away while attacking with the other scouts and then i have to drag more eco to fight while trying to save my vill (they still get it because they have the movement of scouts>Just get spearmenThey micro the scout you fight away to harass your other eco, luring out the spearmen to attack the eco if you don't pay attention to every little thing>>740879648I like fighting with armies, not micro managing every unit in gameI played plenty of games and when it went past thirty minutes, I tended to win, but when half of my game is early sweating over every vill harassment, I decided I didn't want to play that game.
>>740879131Most recently been playing Rogue Command and Besieger.Rogue Command is an interesting idea, and pretty good execution all things considered. Enjoying it even though I'm not very keen on the roguelike deckbuilder thing.Besieger is an old slavjank. Weird mechanics, retarded pathfinding, janky scripting, confusing interface, all the good stuff. Loving it a whole lot.Also tried some obscure korean Starcraft clone called Armageddon, was a big pain in the ass to run. Funnily enough, despite never releasing outside of Korea and China, it has an english unit voicing. Unfortunately nothing else is in english so figuring out what to do and how things work can be troublesome. Think I'll return to it some time later.
>>740880119What’s stopping you from playing defensive focused maps to focus more on lategame then?
>>740870314Because its more fun to beat other playersWhy do you think IRL fighters fight each other?
>>740880119Your base layout wasn't good then if you couldn't defend it with spears + tc. And you're supposed to lose the first games if you're new. I had to lose 8 before I got my first win and now I've stabilized back to 60% and climbing until I find my new plateau. Giving up after one 5 minute game is peak loser behaviour.
>>740880341If you want to beat other people you need to actually get gud then, sorry
>>740880341most fighters know that their biggest enemy is themselves, if you can't be better than what you were yesterday you aren't winning at life.
>>740880368I'm shortening the story because I don't think you subscribed to my blog. I played a bunch, didn't like half the games, and I don't want to suffer in order to have fun. I play the game to have fun. If you think I overlooked something, no, I'm just not going to write a book about my AoE experience, because it doesn't matter that much. TL:DR, I do not play the game to fight in feudal. >>740880338Online map pool for ranked tended to not favor me when I played>Custom lobbiesNo. 90% of those games I played were just smurfs looking to stomp
>>740833342They're introducing a "What's your rts experience?" option for ranked ladder elo calibration soon so you can select "0 elo 0 apmlet" lmaaao
>>740880842Arena is in the current map pool. It was in the last map pool. And I'm pretty sure it has been in every fucking map pool because of people like you.
>>740833390Based, I do the same in every rtsOr doing co-op vs AI with the bros
>>740881212Too late, I already am a Campaign only Chad.
How do I get into AoE2? I bought DE ages ago and have been procrastinating forever, I am a top 10% player in Coh1 and 2 but since they are both pretty much dead I wanted to get into some other RTS.Any good youtube/guides for basics?
>>740881343Why don't you do 1vs1 with the bros and adjust handicaps based on player skill?
>>740881459>Any good youtube/guides for basics?Go to YouTube. Search for "T90 LEL". Should be good enough to get you started
>>740878772if I wasn't so lazy I would make a troll version of this >C&C4>Empire Earth 3>Stronghold 3>Homeworld 3>DoW3>CoH3>Stormgate
>>740881480I would be willing but I think one would be disinterested and the other is way too much of a sore loser
>>740881459Hera road to 2k and then this below if you are a sweaty nerdhttps://files.catbox.moe/aw0e9n.pdfIf not sweaty id first be playing the first campaign, doing some art of war challenges and playing against AI with increasing difficulty, which is the more usual route. Extreme AI doesn't cheat and still is like 1.1k elo so better than most here
>>740881459Play the ingame tutorials, if you don't understand how to improve watch someone better do it. Then do a mix of playing vs AI/watching other people play, your early game should be solid, learn the units, counters, hotkeys (you need to have hotkeys for important buildings/barracks). And get most of the addons other people are using, smaller trees and no grassplants is huge, the game looks so busy otherwise.
>>740881459DE already includes a basic build order tutorial also you know that a CoH1 remaster has been announced
>>740862131I play against custom bots by myself or with my buddies in Dota. Incredibly fun and less stressful than coordinating with randos
>>740881863>Extreme AI doesn't cheat and still is like 1.1k elo sofrom what I heard only Extreme AI cheats and its closer to 2k as long as you don't rush it
>>740878528I've only played 8v8 ai on random 8v8 maps and I must say I am terrible at front.
>>740881968yeah, and I bet my mom's ass that Relic will 100% fuck it up.Relic is nothing but a husk of what they were, it's nothing but women and soibois there.
I wish there were more RTS that weren't the >APM, 1997-level AI, gookclick autism design. Sure, you can still have fun with them to a degree especially if playing the campaign or the few games that have Starcraft 2 style Co-Op modes with progression (its a pity that they ruined that SC2-ish successor title that had the Terran + Dimensional Demons + Space Angels dynamic, all because they focused on esports faggotry first. I think its literally dead now or something), but the design should evolve a bit. It should feel like commanding soldiers. You don't need to tell each soldier individually that they shouldn't plink their assault rifle against a tank when there's a soft target right next to said tank etc. Dawn of War 2 did a pretty good job with evolving the dynamic and having the units be pretty capable, as well as the cover system. Even a game with more units could still do better. Hell at this point having more single player , co-op, campaigns, and Arcade/custom modes alone would help rather than focus on esports faggotry. The people who come for compfag ranked play will always be there, but almost everyone else who doesn't dedicating themselves to it will just fuck off if you don't give them something to do besides getting stomped in competitive modes.
>>740840856TAKA!
>>740833390We can only blame one company for RTS: BlizzardNow only RTS but MMORPG.
>>740883559Older RTS(late 90s/very early 00s) tried a lot of experimental shit including unit autonomy and alternate singleplayer modes, but almost none of it ever got any proper followups. For what it's worth, Dust Front will be releasing a demo soon and it looks promising.
>
>>740837783>John Slow>he's slow
>>740872426they're pretty ok, but theyre fun.
>>740879376You're gay and lame
>>740833342except for the start it really isnt importnatnapm is a starcraft 1 thing where all the fun is being outoptimized by bugpeople trying to obtain a 0.01 second ressource lead by manually returning individual workers once they have harvested minerals
>>740833342how do I get good at rts games, I went to replay populus the beginning and god damn does the game go from 0 to 10000 difficulty by the halfway point
>>740837783You do know elo in vidya is just directly proportionate to hours spent, right?
>>740879376You wouldn’t do shit faggot
>>740887882>oh that looks cool>check steam page>ROGUELIKEAaand droppedNever post that shit again nigger
>>740888086What do you want it to be? Choose same meta comp every round?
>>740887882This demo was fun but HOOOOLY the hate I have roguelikes.
>>740887882>StS level system AGAIN
>>740888086>>740888161>>740888289So, you are going to play Stronghold 4 instead, right?
>>740888354>early accessMaybe when it's properly finished.
>>740888354No, I've never played a stronghold game and I'm not going to start with the newesr entry. I'm still going to get tabletop tavern, I really liked the demo but I still hate roguelike games.
>>740833342It depends on how good you want to be. You can definitely be better than a lot of people even if you have middling speed if you just know the game well. But yes, in a real-time game a faster player inevitably will have an advantage all other things being equal.
Yoo sick so many replies for AoE 2.Just came in late but hope you've had a great thread fellas.
>>740888732I'm at least half the posts here. I'm a proud Indian named jeetmaster who loves hand canonneers and Armenians. Thank u saar
>>740882114Extreme AI does not cheat and it's boom is also not close to a 2k (top 1%) player
>From the shadows I cumWhat the fuck did he mean by this?
>>740833342You need to understand the game, a game plan and the ability to understand how to adapt to your opponent before you need high APM. People focus on high APM first, before they even know what to use those actions for.
So, in an old thread, some anons mentioned that there are strategy games that work well for a single player.One game is apparently designed entirely for thatthere isn't even any AI to play against (I don't understand how that could work). Which ones do you recommend for playing offline/1p?Thanks
>>740844890I got to diamond just with build orders.
>>740889693I guess they were talking about they are billions and other similar games?I think Stonghold also fits.
>>740833342You don't. You need UAPM
>>740833342Just play with other shitters
>>740889693I really liked Infested Planet.
>>740837783that's like saying size doesn't matter for basketball players.Sure you can still be top 1% of the world as a manlet but you have to make up for it, basically putting in 3 times as much effort as someone who is just super tall.
>>740889693I ended up really liking the Spellforce campaigns, there's a good feeling of escalation in later missions and your units banter mid-combat. Especially the dorfs
>>740854907Bullying CPUs is so soulful. My nigga.
>>740889693Try board games
>>740889693>isn't even any AI to play against (I don't understand how that could work)Battleforgeits fully scripted and almost completely deterministic, except one mission that has an rng timer.>>740893145same devs btw
>>740889693Five Nations has a fun and long campaign.
>>740833390Simply based
>>740833390Huh, I thought it was just me. I have thousands of hours in 2 with all of its versions and I've been playing since like 2003 and I have to have less than 10 PvP games total.
comp stomp co-op against extreme AI is enough
>>740892210This same logic can be applied to literally everything. So do you just never do anything because you don't have some advantage at it? Besides I don't think "high apm" is some trait you're born with, not as much as height at the very least.
>>740898674>apm isn't some trait you are born withexactly, that's why you are giving yourself a handicap if you don't use. Furthermore you will never be number 1 without it.
RTS is literally the only genre in existence the players of which take pride in being bad at
>>740899467Wrong.
>>740899189Yes we will never be number 1 at anything.
>"You need above average APM">2 years later>"APM is just a meme">2 years later>"APM is not a meme"I swear you fuckers can never decide on this
>>740900631You don't "need APM" but you still need to do some actions like in any game.
>>740833987sent that freak flying
>>740899467RTS is literally the only genre in existence where there is an obstinate, adamant and very loud portion of players who think playing singleplayer is "not playing the game," "being bad," "coward shit by people afraid to lose," trying to rope more people into their dead circlejerk through negative reinforcement. Utter mental illness. I weep for you PVP niggers if you bring this miserable mentality to other genres. Someone literally named the original Doom to back this retardation up, as if that's not the game with practically infinite singleplayer user content spanning decades and a PVP scene that's like 10 guys on a good day. Christ alive.
>>740901161You played with girls in school? I only know one guy like that and he was gigantic faggot.
>>740901202Nah, fighting games get these people too.
>>740901579Fightan is universally pvp-oriented. Nobody takes "campaigns" there seriously. Literally no one and everyone knows that the AI is braindead. It's merely there to let you grab the feeling of it. The real game has always been against other humans.Now say any of this about RTS and you'll rustle thousands of jimmies."Coincidentally" both genres are dying and have very small playerbases despite being at the top in the past.
>>740901202Why aren't Overwatch, Dota, CS, Street Fighter, Deadlock, Rocket League or other multiplayer game players playing skirmish vs bots? Why do these people only show up in RTS discussion?
>>740901774Because outside of DotA all of those games have straightforward play. RTS does not.
>>740901202it's because you spniggers won't stay in your own lane. if someone says "I don't want to be competitive I just want to play single player with cheat codes and watch my army blow things up" or "I only play custom games with friends" everyone accepts that this is a legitimate way to enjoy the game. it's only when you have faggots who start whining about apm or build orders that people get rightfully upset.
>>740833987lol based
>>740901930Yes they fucking have, against bots that is. Solved science.
>>740847307>>740871679https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar9FVHTtpS8&list=PL37EkmqQJzsiAN6u_Ff9GHyXloZNkTw-Bwatch this and weep you are just shit at the game. i bet you believe in elo hell too
>>740902524>everyone accepts that this is a legitimate way to enjoy the game>>740870482>>740873328>>740873854>>740874297I don't think you fags play anything but PVP slop, actually.>you load a save when you lose!!! looooolYeah I want to CONTINUE PLAYING THE GAME TO FINISH IT, retard. Do you know how video games work?
Been playing a lot of command and conquer generals this past month experimenting with mods and whatnot It's been pretty fun, but as far as fighting ai, the differences between easy medium and hard are crazy. Anyone have suggestions on mods where the AI does not go from snorefest to full on cheating with no in-between?
>>7408333421 good apm is worth 10 bad apmsclick smarter, not faster
>>740903605You can still finish the game in a losing state.
>>740903080https://youtu.be/hSJM9qF0txw?is=sz74tIaD9Kc3AkNT>muh gookclick
>win and keep winning>"Noooo! I am the cult of satan, you can't do that to me!!!">proceeeds to flood servers with cheaters and bad employees inside game's company>I AM LEGION!!!You sure show me, faggot
>>740901202My issue is not that people just want to play whatever SP game, it’s these people being obnoxiously loud with their outdated and frankly bad takes trying to convince devs to cater to THEM when they 1. Barely play the game to begin with and 2. Seem to hate everything that makes an RTS what it is due to misplaced nostalgia. By far this anti-MP sentiment is the loudest and most common online and has been for like a decade now and it only negatively affects the community as well as new releases.
>>740903080>50 APM>averaged not flat>in bronze>goes up with rankNah. Call me when he does it with 20 all the way.
>>740905405>20apmAt what point do you genuinely need to just get gud?People ITT crying that they have like 5 APM and just want to attack-move their ball of tanks into the enemy and win
>>740905208The BIGGEST issue with SP trannies is their insistence that MP is bad as a rule AND that MP should somehow cater towards them and have zero skill expression at all somehow. This is what makes this entire argument so stinky.Also >gookclickLmao peak larper take, since when have Koreans or anyone in Asia given a shit about RTS? Play some Gacha if you want the modern Gookclick game
>>740901202SP people come to the thread discussion flaunting their open ass almost proud that they're shitters and getting mad at being pointed at being shitters. They even play the campaigns wrong and that's why they actually never finish them. It's not even about SP vs MP you play whatever you want, its about being PROUD of being BAD and a failure. Tranny mentality.
Hera has like double the APM of Grubby in WC3 and Grubby still has 1000+ ELO on him.
>>740906415it's funny watching day9 play aoe2 where he has really high apm when he's just making workers and controlling his scouts, but when he doesn't know what to do it completely drops off.
>>740905885>>740905208it's literal femoid mindset, where they want everything while not offering anything themselves.
>>740906750This>omg I just LOOOOVE campaign!!>number of campaigns actually finished: 1 back in 2003
