>>740848670
skill issue, millions are still enjoying vanilla

sounds like a (You) problem, opie

Because too many Normie brained faggots got on video games

meta gaming ruined it all plus everyone in that pic has a job or a wife and kids therefore they cannot be relied on to be actual friends on wow

>>740848670
You need dementia skill to enjoy it again. I hear heroin can hasten the chance of you earning the skill randomly.

>>740848670
Because it's not the 00s anymore

>>740848670
You just like 4:3 resolution. always the same shit with nostalgia fags. they can't accept widescreen is awful for gaming.

All games are products of their time. The experience of playing a multiplayer game is ESPECIALLY a product of its time. Everyone you played with in 2004 is a different human now. Even if you were able to play with all of them again, the experience would be wildly different.

>>740848670
You ran out of MP LMAOOO

Social media makes MMORPG magic impossible.

>>740848670
Far right capitalism ruined it, both in and out of the game.

>>740848670
The social aspect was always my least favourite part of wow so I'm good just playing alone on my own tbc private server

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>>740848670
/ourgirl/'s verdict just dropped.

>>740848670
In current culture it wouldn't work. I blame discord and zoomers

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>>740848670
I wouldn't say that the magic is gone, but we ARE stuck in a state where the Vanilla state of the game isn't getting any more updates and anyone who tries to update it gets shut down by Blizzard.

And the chances of Blizzard making a "Classic+" worthy of the name are practically nil by all indications. They're all but openly saying now that SoD was their dry run for """Classic+""" and they've got the world's most raped goyslaves cheering them on in their little bubbles. They're going to make Retail+ and it's going to be an absolutely massive clown show.

So the only version of this old game that we love that we have access to is a well-preserved corpse rather than anything like a living MMO, which is the true MMO experience.

>>740848670
world buff and consumable cancer

>>740848670
Just look at that Warrior's bars. They are completely terrible and nonsensical. He doesn't even have Heroic Strike on there. People had no idea what they were doing back then. Barely anyone understood their class or the game's mechanics. That's why it was so magical and mysterious. You can NEVER get that back in today's gaming world.

>>740848670
>Why is the magic completely gone?
You're old and bitter.

>>740848670
can't cross the the same river twice

How do you make an mmo good? Currently no retail mmo has all these.

1. Server wide global chat being the default with a tab switch for local chat

2. No instancing and or minimal loading screens

3. Progression and mechanics that promote social scenarios and working together

4. Progression that is meaningful with a clear path to farm items in the world with professions

5. Side activies and leisure like fishing, mining, crafting that rewards players with rare items and mounts.

>>740849428
This
>>740849157
And this

The pillars of MMOs as a genre are socializing and exploring. Socializing across the whole internet has been destroyed by culture wars and ecelebs. Exploration is incompatible with modern game design (and the players who have been brainwashed by it) focused around dopamaxxing addiction loops and metagaming

We will never experience the golden age of MMOs again. People and games have both changed too much for that

>>740848670
because society is in it's end-stage and it shows, everybody in MMO is acting like a faggot nowadays, nobody does shit either except when it benefits them and only them

>>740849545
>1. bot spam
>2. bot spam
>3. dps autists will complain
>4. social fags will complain
>5. minmaxers will complain

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Youtubers like webm related ruin the game by solving it for all the normies which they mindlessly follow.

Also people rushing to 60, only to gank lowbies till they uninstall.

Pic related is SwoleBenji, who ganked almost 19 hours a day non stop for months on end, and when the server he was on died, he transfered and killed a second one.

Now you could say this is "based" or "fuck the alliance" but the truth is simple. Without normies populating the game world all you have left are min-max tryhard sweatlords who raid log and that makes for an empty, boring, and shit server.

Also trannies and fags ruined gaming in general. It's all a bunch of "gl hf" npc bots and fakenice niggers.

>>740849631
all these can be fixed with good moderation and balancing. They can outsource reports easily nowadays. There's no excuse for a multi billion dollar company like blizzard not to be able to moderate their games or fix issues.

Even jagex outsources their bans to eastern euro tech support and they are nowhere as wealthy as blizzard

>>740849584
>>740849157
it would require a really dedicated and intrusive developer to micromanage the game's culture

>>740849668
I honestly don't understand how can someone enjoy just fucking around camping enemy players all day
I play a lot of WoW and just get bored at this point cant even play for more than 1 or 2 hours then I have to do something else

I'm so old now the game only feels somewhat enjoyable when I play in short sessions

>>740849668
60 rogues were always the niggers of wow how is this any different?

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>>740849813
Sadism.

>>740849668
the trick is to be the autistic theorycrafter instead of the bandwagoning normie. there is no such thing as a "solved" game, especially one as complex as fuckin WoW. there is always something to squeeze more juice out of.

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You WoWfags are lucky compared to ROfags getting slop for the xth time.

Low-trust antisocial society in which everyone thinks they are perfect. Too many classes have been an everything in one for too long to the point no one understands basic archetypes anymore and how they relate to each other.
Community driven markets, classes and professions (like SWG back in the day) would be understood by no one. We all just want our skinner box to wrap up the day now.

>>740849813
Autism
The answer is always autism

>>740849545
>1. Server wide global chat being the default
Just use discord.
>3. Progression and mechanics that promote social scenarios and working together
Boosting and GDKP.
>4. Progression that is meaningful with a clear path to farm items in the world with professions
Botting and mafias.

>>740848670
1) Discord killed video game communities. Nobody wants to make friends in-game, they want to play with their friends. Games are no longer methods of socialization and meeting new people.
2) The people changed. Nobody's playing WoW for enjoyment, they're only chasing nostalgia and there's no new blood.
3) Everything is solved. WoW is not a game to be played but a problem to be solved. You better have XYZ BiS items or you won't see the inside of a dungeon, you better not be playing this spec or that spec, you should be optimized to the gills and grinding grinding grinding, etc.

>>740848670
because you're not in high school or college anymore

>getting ganklethorned
>beg for help
>some lvl 54 pala arrives and helps
>faggy ud rouge calls his buddies
>pala calls his guild
>shit explodes into a war
>people start pouring in not even sure what when where why it all started

I would pity the kids who will never experience this but most of them are sociopathic zombies and so deserve their eceleb hell.

It's okay to grow up and move on. It's a sign of growth. Instead of clinging desperately to the past hoping to recapture some of the former magic, which is impossible for a number of reasons, you should just remember it for what it was. It's unhealthy to keep "wanting to go back".
You probably used to enjoy playing tag, hide-and-seek, and tether ball as a kid too. I doubt you do any of those anymore. You've grown past it. Move on.

>>740850083
WPvP is suboptimal for honor gain and will distract me from getting wbuffs for efficient raiding. Also show me your parses.

>>740850184
>It's unhealthy to keep "wanting to go back".
it is totally understandable when present and future are both complete shit

>>740848670
Oversocialization + Discord cliques when it comes to MMOs.

Throw into that PvPfags and Raidfags essentially steering the direction for the game for the past 10+ years, even though they're the vast minority of players.

social media
normies

>>740848670
>Why is the magic completely gone?
It's a solved game.

>>740848670
Private servers until classic were still soulful. Normies ruin everything

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>>740849668
What's up, SwoleBenji? Still shilling yourself in third person?

Nawww, I kid. But seriously, what's up?

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What began the decline was inter-linked servers making every player you meet basically an NPC you will never see again, so why bother being all like, "oh hey :)" etc.
You had no server rep or status because there were too many people and they're all just ephemeral nobodies who phase into your reality, do content with you and then phase back out into non-existence.

Automated moderation was the nail in the coffin.
No-one wants to be personable or say hello in an era where "taking offence" is a rewarded social stratagem and anything you can say can be misconstrued or just falsely mass-reported by cliquish pieces of very lost and confused normalfaggot shit

Turtle WoW was the closest a recent incarnation of the game ever got to the original spirit of release, and the early years succeeding it.
It was largely because few people were stressed about securing a spot in a raid, or missing out a tier, or getting pre-BiS NOW NOW NOW, or running to max level... the devs had passion and love for the game and what they were doing and the players appreciated it.
It actually felt like a community of people just sharing this cool thing.
It helped that it was moderated by actual people, too.
They curbed heavily botting and gold-buying and selling, and intervened pretty quickly if a player was griefing (actually griefing, not just words in chat or PvP).
People were social there because the in-game policy from mods was sound, so there was an element of social trust present that retail just does not have. So people were naturally much nicer and helpful. All of that combined made Turtle a fucking amazing server.

We could also talk about changes in real-world socialisation and the decline of people being friends there, along with the decline of social third spaces, and the rise of atomising and divisive social media replacing naturally-originated social norms and expectations, and how those would transplant into expectations of sociality in a digital space.

>>740849904
>there is no such thing as a "solved" game
lol. It's a tab target game. It's the easiest shit to solve. Literally just a numbers game.

Also you forget Blizzard's lead devs are autistic about enforcing metas. Anything that goes against their vision either gets a nerf or has its opposition buffed, virtually no exception. It was even worse when Kaplan was in charge too.

>>740850645
>>No-one wants to be personable or say hello in an era where "taking offence" is a rewarded social stratagem and anything you can say can be misconstrued or just falsely mass-reported by cliquish pieces of very lost and confused normalfaggot shit
you don't even have to stretch that far. people are literally getting muted and banned for selling items the mafia has laid claim to. like that dumb necklace in dragonflight.

>>740849668
Yeah but that's the games fault for having such a massive power difference between levels and for not restricting high vs low lvl pvp

>>740848670
You got old bro.
I turned 30 last week I can't imagine going back to wow. It's not the same people and it's not the same game. We are not the target audience anymore. It's a happy memory, keep it that way :)

>>740850920
Im 34 and i still like questing, leveling and world.
PvP, raiding and dungeoning are all complete ass.

>>740850665
>autistic about enforcing metas
The gayest shit. An mmo without emergent gameplay is absolutely worthless.

>>740848670
>Undead warrior
>whirlwind axe
>green iron armor
Literal S tier kinoSOVL it doesn't get any better than that.

>>740848670
too many third worlders and normalfags on the internet

>>740851080
I was never much into raiding apart from a lil casual action on the side. I played out Outland and did arenas from sunrise until dawn. Happy you are still having fun.

>>740851080
I only pay up my subscription for arena gameplay on TBC. No other game has similar pvp.
I've done my questing many many times. I can't take it anymore, I used restedxp to skip that shit as fast as possible.

>>740851258
Also just checked and Arena Junkies is dead, nothing to come back to.

>>740849545
Adding on a bit primarily to your side activities snippet

>No map or limited map, forcing you to visually learn the game world but it's important your world building is S tier with proper landmarks and immersion (cartography player skill would be kino like UO)
>strictly only fast travel provided by other players and only by mid game levels (EQ style druid/wizard porting but add in UOs gate style where gates appear real time in the world and anyone can click the gate)
>Non-combat activities - it can come in many forms either from very deep tradeskills (easy lame route) or actual non combat skills integrated into the game like SWG and UO, things like doctors who heal permanent combat wound debuffs, entertainers, players who provide cosmetics to other players (you can only change your characters cosmetics through player interaction) merchant type classes or skills etc

>>740851470
>Online interactive maps
>travel bots like warlocks in classic
>second window bots

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>>740848670
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU-xNHDrgeY

>>740849545
>1. Server wide global chat being the default with a tab switch for local chat
people will keep themselves to their discord cliques anyway
>2. No instancing and or minimal loading screens
no instancing means the game is a joke because everything can be zerged down
>3. Progression and mechanics that promote social scenarios and working together
once again discord cliques will just use discord and organize their cliques to minmax
>4. Progression that is meaningful with a clear path to farm items in the world with professions
translation: the game will be infested with bots
>5. Side activies and leisure like fishing, mining, crafting that rewards players with rare items and mounts.
now your game is infested with MOUNTSMOGSPETSTITLESCHEEVOS single player dadgamers who don't interact with any group activities, and it's only a matter of time until the suits smack you on the head for not catering to this audience

diagnosis: flop

>>740848670
You know the answer

>>740851512
warlock bots never appeared until SoD and that's a moderation issue, I've never seen warlock bots ANYWHERE else but on nu blizzard servers after SoD, very much a modern day problem from how shitty the current community of people who still enjoy WoW are and how blizzard doesn't enforce any sort of moderation hence all the boost faggot spam on top of it which private servers don't have any sort of issue due to hiring actual GMs.

Also my suggestion for fast travel isn't a simple summon like shitty WoW, druids and wizards in EQ physically port you and it's only to very specific locations aka druid rings and wizard spires.

and EQ had EQatlas even back in the day before you were born but it still forced the entire population to still learn the in-game map, nice try but all shit rebuttals from a newfag to mmo's.

>>740851610
>"now your game is infested with MOUNTSMOGSPETSTITLESCHEEVOS single player dadgamers who don't interact with any group activities, and it's only a matter of time until the suits smack you on the head for not catering to this audience"

The issue is nu blizzard catered to the anti social loser crowd which also includes 90% of dadgamers, the entire game is designed for selfish loner losers now which is why the community is literal pure garbage and everyone is constantly cheating, botting, buying gold, paying for boosts.

It wasn't always like that

Something can only be new once. It's that simple.

>>740848670
because the average internet user is way more brown, gay and retarded nowadays.

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>>740849668
can't believe this nigger and manlettears are still on /v/ shilling their shit to this fucking day and actually funny sperg tripfags like quentin are gone

>>740851365
TBC PvP is the literal worst of any expansion. Imagine paying for PvP where nobody dies and you can’t even kill a resto druid or disc priest with 3 people until they run oom

>>740848670
we are old.

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>>740853368
>sperg tripfags like quentin
>sperg
Quentin was fun as fuck to hang out with
He would explain to the guild that everything he'd put out was 100% ragebaiting or just plain trolling
It worked.

>>740849545
1. make it cost more than 3rd worlders and botters can afford
2. hired gm
3. dont cater to women or children
4. dont make it too hard or too easy if its too easy make it grindy
5.Have a large healthy community layer/instances/too many servers dont help

>>740853557
I play SPR in 2s and this is literally what we doing - zugzuging healers like DP or rdruid all the day, with the exeption of warrior comp, in that case we steamrolling them.

>>740853634
hence, funny sperg

>>740848670
When WoW Classic came out back in 2019 I played week 1 (not day 1 because servers were getting raped). I was killing mobs to get their pelts and leaving behind the teeth because I didn't need that shit. Some guy, vastly higher in level, tells me to grab everything because mobs take far longer to despawn if they have items on them. Now I know he was helping and giving advice in good faith but this interaction made me realize how hyper min-maxed everything was right down to mob respawn times. It wasn't even an issue at the time because there were a ton of mobs and I only need like 2 pelts. Still, put me off playing the game for a while. "Hur durr don't play mmo if you don't want interaction" I want to chat with people about lore and explore not have some fat fuck backseat play my character, fuck off.

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>>740853736
My mistake. Carry on

>>740853758
>Another player gives you advice on looting etiquette to avoid inconveniencing other players and informsnyou about a game mechanic you might not be aware of
>Get autismally upset and turned off the game as a whole
it sounds like (you) are the problematic element here, anon

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>CWAWWIC
You didn't play vanilla.

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>>740854208
I did, thoughbeit

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>>740848670
For the same reason you can't head over to the arcade for some Street Fighter 2 head to head action.

That was an era, it's over now. A special cultural moment that came about because of passionate people doing a thing they loved. It had a beginning and an end.

No one's mind is blown by being a "virtual avatar" in an online fantasy world populated by thousands of people anymore.

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>>740848670
It needs fresh content to remain interesting, vanilla is stale unless you're willing to try hardcore. Path of exile is popular because it strictly follows the design of early diablo, why is this so hard to imagine for wow+?

>>740848697
Maybe a 100k at peak
No way millions of people still play a 20 year old game

>>740848670
posting a screenshot of classic wow with that is hilarious
clearly the magic isn't gone

>>740848670
Zoomers think every game needs to be competitive because they can't get into an actual competitive sport or lifting, they also think playing video games should make you rich.

>>740854445
that's vanilla, not classic

>>740848670
the community isnt what it was in 2005 and the game has been solved for 20 years

>>740854495
>or lifting
Competitive lifting is that much of a big deal to you that you'd single it out like this? Kinda weird for such a niche thing.

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>>740848697
>November, 2025.
>878k made it to 60.

>>740848670
browns were let onto the internet en mass.

>>740849294
Stop worshipping holes

>>740849428
It’s because he’s undead and not a hero so he can’t use heroic strike according to his RP

Blizzard Activision doesn't want you to have players in your game because you can't defend yourself against griefers (no PvP).

>>740854387
>No one's mind is blown by being a "virtual avatar" in an online fantasy world populated by thousands of people anymore.
Yeah, their minds (and wallets) are being blown by "virtual avatars" in a shitty minecraft server populated by several other vtubers- I mean "virtual avatars"

>>740854159
>Giving a fuck about video game etiquette
Lmao

>>740855748
>why is my social genre dying?

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>>740849668
Why was there no 60 ally rogue sweatlord doing the same thing in the horde equivalent zone? Because either several 60 horde came to deal with him until he fled, or you've just got all pve players stacked on one faction who don't look out for each other and see Drek'thar as pvp. Horde territory.

>>740855836
because hordetrannies's 15-20 zone is still the barrens, a no pvp safespace, and redridge is not. and at level 20 they just scatter into 4 different zones so there's no one zone to camp

>discord troons and streamerniggers warping any community they touch
>the internet changed since 2005-2010 and WoW is not a unique online social platform
>wowhead and other classic-related portals and database sites already got everything solved and listed
>community from retoilet destroys any hint of ingame social standards
>blizzard cant unfuck any of this and instead caters to the retard goycattle crowd that wants to reach the endgame at record speed and wank each other off in capitals over their tier gear or pvp titles
you cant bring that magic back unless you somehow reverse time

>>740849394
My only problem with Classic is phasing, and I think if Classic+ has phasing, it will do as poorly as Classic.

>>740849545
Impossible. To even stand a chance at making a good MMO you'd need to ban discord links from your game so people keep using the ingame chat, and C&D datamining tools and websites to preserve a sense of mystery instead of having everything solved and spoiled on patch day.
Neither of these will ever happen so this thought experiment is already a failure. And this is just the bare minimum.

>>740854820
What causes this?

>>740848670
Modern people are shitty uninteresting faggots compared to people of that era.

>>740854159
Way to miss his point entirely. You're really optimizing your 4chan experience by following the meta of being retarded for (you)s.

>>740848670
get 99% of people off the internet first

>>740856406
Way to miss my point entirely. People getting offended and running back to their bubble to complain at the slightest perceived offense is one of the reasons social genres like MMO are doomed in the modern day

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>>740849668
>>740856296
Leveling problem. WotLK lost 70% of trial players by lvl 10. Approximately nobody wants to play a dumbed down, forced tutorial (that doesn't really teach you endgame, especially PvP) for dozens to hundreds of hours, that massively segregates players and obsoletes 90% of the world. People want a living world, and starting at max would have all players relevant to each other, increasing retention and social identity.

>>740855804
Because you're misattributing what it means to play socially. I even wrote it before, I want to talk about the lore and explore with other people, I don't want other people telling me what to do, how to play, which plugins to install, the optimal levelling guide, etc. Did I ask for help? No, so fuck off until I do you over levelled lap dog. And be sure to drop 10 gold on the ground for inconveniencing me or watch me pop out of existence when I click Block on your ass stupid faggot little cock sucker.

>>740856541
Sorry but can you cut the word count you're not being accommodating to other people's prpm(posts read per minute)

740856624
oh look it's this retarded autist
thread's over

>>740848670
yeah move on, current blizzard hate the neckbeards that made them leave them because they're not fucking worth it.

>>740849083
Yep. It's comfortable to hold on to the past but it's not healthy.

>>740856848
this so much this. stop thinking about how things used to be better and start consuming new product. enshittification is now a banned word.

>>740856624
Most games have ~60% player drop by first area. For me and many of my friends the leveling was the hook. Seeing the defias go from angry hooligans to actual organized threat and invading their hideout was cool. Seeing the storyline continue for 2 more zones until all ties are wrapped up was great. Getting thrown into PvP hellhole of a jungle after that was insane. Fighting for an entire zone's worth of questing just to put down fires and establish a foothold in the Outlands was kino. I made dozens of friends along the way, found a guild and went to meetups. What does "relevant endgame" have? A fucking skinner's box where you do same 2-3 raids each week to gear up to do same 2-3 raids each week (with bigger numbers!). Fuck right off with that shit.

>>740856739
>I am inconveniencing other players? I DON'T CARE! FUCK YOU! You shouldn't even talk to me unless it's about my own interests!
Yeah you are literally the exact type of player that killed social MMOs. It's funny that you can't even see you are part of the very cancer this very thread addresses

>>740855947
Stonetalon and hillsbrad are pretty bad for horde, but an alliance ganker would still be hunted by a couple of bored rogues. When they dropped the honor system on the first classic, horde were pretty much controlling every high level zone for several weeks, waiting at every flight point so alliance would ghost run at least 5 times trying to reach blackrock mountain. A single undead rogue in stonewatch is nothing.

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>>740849083
NO! Scrumblo's FRESH VANILLA pserver was a total wash but Brumre's FRESH VANILLA pserver will FINALLY bring back 2004 just as I remember it!!
And if that fails, Blizzard (the same people who ruined Retail + Classic) definitely absolutely won't fuck up Classic+!!!!!

>>740856905
Nope you're putting words in my mouth. I said nothing about consuming new product. What made WoW amazing in its time just can't be recaptured. No amount of bad faith argumentation is going to change that.

>>740848670
Because of two major factors:
Combat is abhorrent dogshit where you stand around waiting for bars to fill up & the game has no story to follow. No campaign, no help beyond the starting zone. It's hard to know where to even progress towards because the devs tried to be an non-linear as possible. I tried playing a Deathknight and really enjoyed the starting area and the story. Afterwards I had no idea what to do and stopped.

>>740856624
Bro I debunked you in that twow thread a month ago. Juat take the L.

>>740849394
it's like the fucking emperor in 40k, we keep feeding it private servers to keep it in a state between living and death

>>740857041
>zoomie complaining about vanilla combat, which is likely one the best mmorpg combats ever conceived
Next you'll regurgitate something retarded about tab target being bad and muh akshun.

>>740856960
Unironically yes. Unless you give me an buff or item or money or general friendly conversation, I couldn't give an absolute rats fucking ass what tip you'll hand me. You're literally nobody to me as far as I'm concerned, worth less than the NPC's I see running around.

>>740857105
He's right though, sensible leveling was the reason for vanilla's success and all games with "modern" leveling are putrid dogshit.

>>740857158
>WoW
>best mmorpg combat
tell me you didn't play other mmos without telling me you didn't play other mmos. WoW had the most streamlined aka dumbed down combat, if that's best to you then you're the casual target audience they were after.

>>740853758
>Anon gets so traumatized by some powergamer telling him how he'd prefer people played that he stops playing
Nigga its MMO. There's all kinds of people. There isnt one objective way of enjoying things. He wanted to be "considerate" for minmaxxers such as himself, you didnt care about that stuff so you didnt even think about it. This isnt something you should have trauma about, you go "lol k ty" and keep leaving fangs there if you feel like it. There's no harm if someone isnt farming same mobs (and nobody wasnt like you said), so why care about some guy's autism spergs? Why let something that trivial get under your skin?

>>740857158
You gotta be kidding me man.

>>740857235
You misread what he said. He said the opposite of that.

>>740850645
i genuinely miss turtle, it was a great server

>>740857105
Nothing in either of those posts has been debunked.

>>740857260
Name 5 MMOs with better combat than WoW

>>740857260
>>740857298
Name one MMO with better combat. Actually name one which has even half of original WoW's fluidity, visual and sound feedback, clarity of what's going on, mix of reactive and tactical gameplay, etc.

>>740857428
Guild Wars

>>740856956
You can quest when a game doesn't have leveling. Literally everything would be endgame -- gathering, crafting, WPvE, dungeons, raids. Way more people would play.

>>740857418
>Name 5 MMOs
you'd probably need me to huh.
You never played any of them, what the fuck would you know? No matter what I say you'll google it, immediately deplete your brainpower for the day, then return here and tell me it was janky shit that had less depth than vanilla wow because nothing matter to you more than the agenda.
>>740857428
>Actually name one which has even half of original WoW's fluidity, visual and sound feedback, clarity of what's going on, mix of reactive and tactical gameplay, etc.
So name one that was as dumbed down as WoW? Literally impossible.

>>740850339
PvP games are by far the most popular games. See SteamCharts.

>>740857698
No that would be roblox or minecraft you retard

>>740857578
>being able to tell what's going on and react to it means a dumbed down game
???

>>740857578
Concession accepted.

>>740857772
>>740857803
>help it's too complicated for me!
You were WoW's target audience

>>740853758
I feel you.
There was—if briefly—a time and culture where people genuinely approached the game as an Adventure.
Now it's spreadsheet and chore. They are beyond help.

>>740848670
classic wow was good by mistake, the devs had no idea what made it good

>>740857698
You misunderstand. MMOs and single player games are doomed the nanosecond PVPpers are catered to, because they're always, ALWAYS the vast minority.

Strategy games are the best example. Any title that tried to cater to PVPers died immediately, while titles focusing on single player experiences, with an added multiplayer option, are the ones that flourish.

I'm not talking about Fortnite or other multiplayer-exclusive titles.

>>740857474
The first one you mean? Because the second is hot garbage. Even then it has small scale fights which is a bad metric for the genre. I don't recall anything special about the combat though.

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Because we live in a world full of metafags and optimising the fun out of games.

Way back when, people played MMO's just to have fun and hang out and do shit.

Now it's all about XP and looking up stupid guides and faggoty ass youtubers talking about the optimal way to play the game.

This isn't just wow. Runescape too.

It's all games.

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>>740855836
I used to PvP on a gnome make around the elite orc area in hillsbrad. The mobs hit 2x harder on private servers so i would regularly just get a hunters pet to follow me, run to safety and have it aggrolike 8 more mobs that would kill the horde doing the battle for hillsbrad.

>>740857826
So you're just a retarded baiting nigger.

>>740857758
Fortnite got a 14M concurrent and a 44M unique daily.

>>740857964
You're the faggot claiming vanilla wow had the best MMORPG combat even though you never played another MMO.
Actual newfag behavior.

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>>740857260
>vanilla pvp combat was bad
kek what?

You fags think you want to but you don’t. Everyone bitching in these threads could attempt to agree on a game, make a guild that focuses on fun and not worrying about meta, and use the guild chat to shoot the shit. But you won’t, you’d rather make this thread every day and cry about it so you can feel validated when all the other losers inevitably come in and start whining too.

>>740858023
Did I say it was bad, retard?
This is what we mean by WoWbabies. You toddlers can't understand shit and need daddy kaplan to streamline the plane into your mouths.

>>740857919
I did mean the first one but I do enjoy GW2's combat quite a lot as well but only as a solo experience. Having like 10 people strafe around a monster mashing mouse 1 is funny and retarded. And I enjoy both immensely more compared to WoW's combat.

>>740854441
>only 100k
lol still better than most games these days

>>740857996
according to gAyI, roblox has hit 47.1 million concurrent in the past

>>740858018
I've played most titles out there. Meanwhile you can't answer a simple question and keep baiting like the brownoid you are.

>>740857858
>they're always, ALWAYS the vast minority
I don't think you have the numbers for that.

>Strategy games are the best example. Any title that tried to cater to PVPers died immediately, while titles focusing on single player experiences, with an added multiplayer option, are the ones that flourish.
Source?

>I'm not talking about Fortnite or other multiplayer-exclusive titles.
Why are you trying to dismiss the popularity of PvP games just because they don't have SP? Fortnite had a SP game that failed, BTW.

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>>740848670
Cherish the memories, bro. It's time to move on. That's just how life is. If it wasn't that good, it wouldn't have ended, and all good things have to come to an end.

>>740853758
Fucking retard youre just leaving free money on the ground for no reason. Walk 30 seconds to town and sell trash if your inventory is full. Then you have some embarrassing little pussy moment where you dont want to play anymore because a single dude mentioned to loot mobs? Holy shit you sound pathetic. Youre gonna need to loot items and sell them if you want to afford new spells. You must be some sort of brown zoomer. Im glad youre not playing classic

>>740858167
Roblox isn't a game.

>>740858187
the original multi-person mounts from retail were so cool when they first came out. i had the rocket from the refer a friend thingy and then i built the mechano-hog, i'd always try to roll with a buddy whenever possible

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>>740848670
Thottbott and EJ
Knowledge and optimizations have forever killed discovery in games. No longer is it about experimenting, exploring, and discovering things for yourself. There is a meta before the content is released, all secrets have been datamined and discussed, players don't read their skills or talents anymore they just pick what the guide tells them to and pilot a build someone else created for them.

Unironically, you can never go back, this is the norm now and is actually celebrated. The generational mindshift cannot be reversed

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>>740858079
kek why are you in a vanilla wow thread? can you name another mmo that's doing it better? sounds like you're the reason retail is designed the way it is

>>740858234
>le pedantics

>>740858187
>If it wasn't that good, it wouldn't have ended
what?
also the thing is it didn't get a chance to die of old age

xpacs killed it

>>740858391
Death comes in different forms. For many it ended around Wrath some after...etc

>>740857925
>Now it's all about XP and looking up stupid guides
Technically it has always had that element. it was not an expectation to be following one thoughbeit, but they were always there.
The problem with that sort of optimization is when the devs encourage it with shit like integrated gearscore and not nipping problem add-ons in the bud. They spent decades poisoning the well then when people came back to classic all the poisoned idiots came with it so now we have morons asking for gearscore for shit like wailing caverns, a dungeon most classes could do in rags.
I even encountered this in a pserver once upon a time, only once. Said it was impolite to not look up the dungeon ahead of time. At the time there was minimal guides to follow for old versions because classic didn't exist and wasn't normalized. Like they expected me to divine mechanics from broken dungeon pages, and didn't even state class roles just ability names/descriptions. It's insane.

>>740857919
The first one is also bad, the skill builds part of it is very cool and unique, but the engine is just too cheap to compete with WoW.
You have bodyblocking, which in PvE is just an annoyance, but admittedly in PvP bodyblocking can be very strategic both in offense and defense but the engine again makes it feel clunky and annoying more often than not with how server ticks work.
Outside of skill building, skill expression is not extremely deep, in regular PvE most of the time you prebuff, pull and just spam things on cooldown and repeat. Then there are unique builds and niches that require tight timing and execution to upkeep specific buffs that allow you to do content in unique ways and feels very good to pull off but it's only thanks to the depth and creativity in skill building and despite the clunkiness of the engine.
In PvP you have decent skill expression, especially in coordinating crowd control in groups, and the engine actually allows for some fluidity through animation cancelling by timing movement and weapon swaps but it's niche and reserved for high level of play, regular play is quite sluggish.

>>740848670
kek nice keybinds

>>740858571
game peaked in popularity during cata but i agree wrath was the last one, pre homosexual era

This whole thread is retarded. Download classic and play it right now! Ive been leveling through stv this whole week and having a great time. People everywhere. Back and forth ganking pvp drama. World chat nonsense. People even openly say nigger

>>740858387
It's like saying Steam is popular.

So, you have like, what, 1 popular singleplayer game (that's also played for its PvP) followed by a dozen PvP games? Fortnite, APEX, League, DOTA 2, CS, COD, Valorant, Overwatch, PUBG ...

>>740849668
Holy based

>>740858713
Sounds about right. People shit on Blizzard but they managed to create sensible combat and no MMO for many years to come managed to come even close. Aion was decent though but felt too restrictive and stationary due to the skill chain animations.
The existence of addon support also allowed you to make vital combat information actually visible while filtering garbage.

>>740851610
>translation: the game will be infested with bots
>now your game is infested with MOUNTSMOGSPETSTITLESCHEEVOS single player dadgamers who don't interact with any group activities
Not really arguments against providing a good economy and a variety of activities.

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>>740858738

>>740849668
the thing is back in 2006 there were no "normies"

people kept playing because they knew this was part of the game. where they played games for fun

>>740848670
you're not a teenager anymore

>>740848670
Because online features were still novel and not intrusive. You can play through many single player games by the time you hit 60 and raiding has been solved. Plus you already know there's no future/features to look forward to later you're playing it as good as it gets. Just really not a whole lot of good reason to dip back into the well unless you have endless free time and even then it's still a worse alternative to literally anything else.

>>740859080
soccer moms played WoW in 2006 you have no clue
tons of people stopped playing or switched servers because of griefing it was a very widespread and talked about problem
being griefed or corpse camped isn't fun staring at a box saying you can resurrect in 10 minutes isn't fun

>>740855052
He's a third worlder, you wouldn't understand

>>740856971
with Brumre's fresh I'll definitely get my Thunderfury this time! (quits at lvl 40)

>>740859731
>soccer moms played WoW in 2006 you have no clue
i agree
but part of the game was getting a h igher level from your guild to come help or...go do something else?

>>740859731
>>740860707
what is rez sickness?

>>740848670
The game as content is still there, just play classic instead of retail. The reason the magic is gone is because you are now physically (not mentally) grown up and the world around you has changed over the last 20 years.

An experience doesn't live in a vacuum.

>nu-blizz
>gay/fsggotry among devs
Its gone

>>740848670
Because the retards who play this easy ass game require everyone to play it 100% optimally and no one wants to level in the overworld anymore, they cleave dungeons to 60 then once they get into TBC they cleave dungeons to 70

Vanilla would be great if it wasn't for all the 30-something year old millennial failures who play it

RUNESCAPE 3 WON.

RUNESCAPE 3 > ALL MMOS

>>740848670
The magic was never there.

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>>740849545
Very often when /v/ or anyone on 4chan tries to brainstorm a MMORPG it's always some shitty, poorly thought out retardation that would fall apart instantly because they ALWAYS fail to take player behavior into account and give some fairy tale fantasy novel where they are in complete control and everything just smooth.
If you give your MMO players too much freedom, if you don't place limits via instances (they aren't even bad) then your game will get ran through by bots, thirdworlders turning it into a job and NEETs.
Also the game you described is called Archeage and it sucks ass, overrun by 3rd worlders

Literally, and I mean LITERALLY just copy all of vanilla WoW's features and tweak them, Blizzard got it right in 2004.
TurtleWoW already proved that this is the the way to go, Vanilla WoW is the foundation on which you should build your MMO, same way that Wolfenstein, Quake and DOOM are the foundations on which FPS games are built.

>>740861851
There's a reaspon yoshipee told his team to go and play wow when they remade ff14

>>740861851
No. I thought WoW was shit in 2004, why the FUCK would I base a theoretical MMO on it. Theme parks are a fundamentally flawed genre.

>>740861930
You fucking retard they didn't play vanilla they played Mists, MAYBE Cataclysm

Also XIV sucks

>>740861851
>more wowfetuses wanting their cancer to keep MMOs in the grave
i am exhausted

>>740862039
Define "themepark MMO" and why it's bad

>>740862226
Everquest-derived MMOs that are not about a living, breathing world driven by player action. They are bad because they don't fully take advantage of being an online world and never have, instead hitching themselves to bad design that got them outcompeted by gacha.

>>740861851
You can't stop people from ruining the game for themselves, but you can stop bots and gold sellers quite easily

>>740861705
How would it be great if leveling took longer when its dogshit?

>>740862497
Yeah it's so easy many games have tried for decades and never succeeeded.

>>740848670
Because it's no longer magical to be able to enter an online world where you can see other players. It has become mundane. The novelty and awe is gone.

>>740862226
Style of MMO with minimal player created content, player expression, and arcade endgame. It's bad because it goes against the idea of MMORPG itself, there's barely any roleplay aside from class and race

>>740848670
it was a different era of time.
MMOs were niche
Not everyone had internet/computers in their house yet, and I even mean in 1st world countries.
games weren't datamined and solved before they even released
WoW was new
players were shit and you couldn't just look up a guide to figure out everything or install a bunch of addons.
It's just a different ecosystem that can't be replicated.

>>740848670
god i hate how messy everything looks about mmorpg games, literally no immersion possible

>>740862492
>Everquest-derived MMOs that are not about a living, breathing world driven by player action
These MMOs always fall apart and purity spiral to death or an incredibly small playerbase because the people doing those actions are playing for 16 hours per day at least.
I've played several MMOs and this happens literally every single time in those kinds of games

>>740848670
world PVP was great fun, raiding barrens because someone yells to in all caps in stormwind.

>>740862926
Not my problem you missed the boat on UO.

>>740862226
there is nothing fundamentally bad about it and people are just coping. All it means is that the devs produce more directed content, for good or bad.

>>740849428
slam build clearly

i played on warmane thinking i could recapture the magic but i don't know if it's because it's a private server or because it's full of ESL's but I've never met such a community of anti-social, dimwitted retards in my life. Their lives entirely revolve around gear score and everything else is confusing to them. There is zero fun. Just gearscore. It's a completely different vibe to what i experienced years ago

>>740848670
Oh my FUCKING GOD this exact thread has been made daily for the last 10+ years. Find a new game or just play the classic servers that you guys forced blizzard to make you absolute fucking loser.

>>740862492
>driven by player action
Ie by neets, which nobody but neets wants. This is making games worse not better

>>740863091
Cool but you have no argument, the behavior I described is why those MMOs die, which means they're flawed at a fundamental level.
Meanwhile WoW is still going and its private servers and shitty official classic versions get more players than those kinds of MMOs.
If that doesn't prove that the WoW formula is the best for MMOs currently then I don't know what will.

>>740848670
Casuals don't like playing 20 year old games.

>>740856956
I've played the game for like a decade and I don't know what the fuck the Defias are other than pirates or something. I think I've read 1 or 2 quest texts in my entire life. How many of the quests are actually pushing a narrative and how many are just filler?

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>>740861851
Stopping bots and third-world swine and advocating for more of WoW's cancer is not mutually exclusive.
>TurtleWoW already proved that this is the the way to go
You creatures always reveal your real colors.

>>740863398
I have every argument against them. Theme park MMOs didn't build themselves on the things you think they did.

>>740863504
You caught me, I'm shilling a dead server that doesn't exist

>>740862226
Themeparks arent fundamentally bad but WoW ruined them forever.

Its only recently that older, better theme parks are getting attention again (EQ, FFXI, GW 1) so hopefully we're moving out of the shadow of WoW

>>740862926
Bwo, EVE and Albion?

>>740863810
GW1 is, first off, not an MMO in the same way as the other games, and second off never had a subscription fee so it never had any incentive to be designed like shit because retention metrics never mattered.

>>740863992
>uhm this really good game doesn't count because... because it just doesn't ok!!!

>>740863810
>EQ
>FFXI
>GW1
Only GW1 holds up among those 3 and to claim there's some sort of worthwhile renewed interest in these is delusion, step out of your bubble

>>740864039
It's not an MMO. It's an online instanced lobby-based game. It's also much better than most MMOs are.

>>740849668
>Now you could say this is "based" or "fuck the alliance" but the truth is simple
The truth is simple, and camping carebears is based

MMOs are only as good as the players and people who play MMOs are pieces of shit. that's why the genre is dead

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>>740864187
FFXI has had to close four servers to new players due to overcrowding because of the massive influx of newbies. Sounds like it's less of a bubble and you just being an uninformed retard

>>740856406
You don't even know the point retard. What the fuck are you even on about? Some sperg gets upset that he's being called out for being a virtual nigger not looting his shit so everyone can get spawns/skins (Dumb faggot called this minmaxing btw, already a sign the dumb nigger doesn't know a single thing about what he's complaining about). Enlighten us on your """"point"""" then.

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>>740864189

>>740849668
Yeah that's Jammno/Jammku an enormous fucking faggot.

>>740853758
>Shopping cart test: Video game version
>anon fails it
Stay in whatever dead 3rd world infested shithole MMO you frequent.

>>740848670
internet became too widespread

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>>740863409
everybody is playing old games

>>740850184
I'm glad you grew up privileged and groomed for success, but the majority of us would rather have a lower GDP, brutal law enforcement and live in an undisputedly better time period than now. >>740850217 is correct. Reactionaryism is breeded from a soulless world.

>>740848670
because discord killed the mmorpg genre

reactionary is meaningless communist name calling, they love making up -isms

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>>740848670
>The world has changed
>MMOs are not social games anymore
>People hang in Discords
>Most casual player have access to autistic rants on optimization
>No sense of discovery
>"You didn't watch Fartsniffer's video on the optimal way to play?"
>Any game update is solved within 48 hours
>Layering ruins any sense of a real server
>People constantly switching layers to play optimally.
>Can't have people existing together
>Can't inconvenience a streamer that wants to stream their location 24/7 on a PvP server

I miss the past too

>>740865181
You realize leftists can be reactionaries too right you illiterate dipshit

>>740865207
Which is why phase 1 of Season of Discovery was so great, people weren't able to datamine things so everyone was running around discovering different things and in game chat was full of people talking

>>740848670
So there's two parts. One of which is internal and one that's external.

The external one is that WoW just doesn't have as many players anymore. A lot of the people in this screenshot have moved on with their lives, and they might fondly remember WoW but have no real desire to go back.

And then the internal. The answer is that you're not 16 and none of this is novel anymore. All of this stuff was new and exciting when you were younger, and your life was probably less stressful. But over time, you got older and more cynical. And as people who were driven to be good at the game continued to dig into it, (who may or may not have been you), the underlying mechanics were solved. Finding new gear wasn't exciting anymore because you already know what the best gear is. Builds aren't something you experiment with because there's the one good build. Your knowledge has taken the whimsy out of the game.

>>740865207
The problem is that the world has indeed changed, but MMOs haven't

>>740865326
leftkikes can certainly infight but that doesn’t mean reactionary means anything, it’s just an insult pinkos throw around when you won’t go along with their insanity

>>740865632
Just because you're brown and esl and don't know what reactionary means doesn't mean that it has no meaning Paco

>>740865781
there’s nothing browner than being a dumb communist

>>740866069
Wrong, theres nothing browner than being you

>>740849584
>>740851193
>>740853196
>>740854982
>>740856071
>>740856447
>>740862857
>>740864524
My brothers in Christ
We're on the goynet, not the actual internet

>>740865207
>Pre-2010
>Players find a humorous bug
>Devs turn it into a feature or fun easter egg

>Post-2010
>Players find a humorous bug
>Everyone who triggers it gets banned and bug gets patched immediately

>>740867256
The difference is that back then the bug was a funny graphical glitch, and today the bug is an item multiplication glitch.

>>740855836
I remember making an orc character some time around Legion and there was a level 4 nelf in the starting area trying to bait me into flagging for PVP. I didn't fall for it and later I saw his ?? gnome buddy running around

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>>740856750
Please tell me this isn't a thing. You're just making a joke right?

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I've been playing WoW for 21½ years straight
Ask me anything

>>740867798
Retard

>>740867990
How does it feel to pay approx $3.5k for a single game?

>>740849545
>Server wide global chat
Trash

>>740868245
paradox niggas be like damn what a steal

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>>740849545
All except #1 and mounts, but even then you can just join chat channels which are all global

>>740864187
>to claim there's some sort of worthwhile renewed interest in these is delusion
Retard, my world (Phoenix) just closed the doors to new players. Just because it’s not a headline on kotaku or wherever you get your (lack of) knowledge doesn’t mean it isn’t a thing.

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>>740868908
>no instancing
>Progression and mechanics that promote social scenarios

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For the Horde!

OwO

UwU

>>740862226
Linear treadmill. Most or all have leveling, which massively filters players. WotLK lost 70% of trial players by lvl 10. In November of 2025, only 878k had made it to lvl 60.

>>740869061
>>no instancing
OR (keywords here) minimal loading screens
>>Progression and mechanics that promote social scenarios
Barbarian assault
All group skilling
Group bossing
Places like barrows and moons where you can fight your own enemies but see and chat with others
Raids
The wildy to an extent

>>740869362
>In November of 2025, only 878k had made it to lvl 60.
In Classic*.

>>740868245
I make 130k a year you think that matters to me?

>>740869519
Do you also pay your wife's boyfriend subscription?

>>740869656
>I make more money than you
>yeah well you're a cuck
Classic seethe

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>>740861851
There aren't a lot of other MMOs because they simply aren't that appealing and worse they only want to copy wow and take some of its userbase instead of generating new ones. Its been said a few times before but other games and even social media have taken all the roles that wow offered and that is what is causing the downfall of wow and MMOs in general.

Now people still play wow and when it comes to the Retail vs Classic debate. Retail fluctuates in userbase to great extremes while classic usually maintains 3-5 mil players(across all versions).

retail honestly does just get worse as it goes on and its because it has no respect for itself its 20 years of QoL have made the game a parody of itself. You FLY around at mach 10 and teleport everywhere, leveling is something you pay to skip, every class has the same kit(self heal, defensive, movement, etc), rotations are bloated to hell after. Abilities have way too many particle effects, world pvp completely killed, quests are seen as something to just get over as quickly as possible and are designed as such, dungeon spacing has taken over the game and is the single best way to improve your character no matter what.

>>740868661
Genuine skill issue. Rogue is a painfully lower-mid tier class in 1.12, even in PvP.

>>740849912
No one who honestly likes RO plays the yearly plate of shit that Gravity serves, and instead they all flock pservs. RO 3 likely will be doa because of this.

>>740870464
RO3 will be DoA because they're going to immediately flood it with all the gacha costumes and auto battle that their mobile games are filled with

>>740870521
it's doa even without any of that
have you seen the combat videos? it's a mobile cookie clicker

>>740868245
Doesn't bother me one bit, as WoW is the only game I've played in over two decades other than ATLYSS
How does it feel having spent $20,000 for 300 games?

just one more fresh bro like just one more when next fresh last one i promise just one more bro PLEASE

>>740871016
Me except with Season of Discovery

>>740848883
I play anything I can in 4:3 but MMOs are still dead

>>740871148
I'm in my mid 30s and realizing 4:3 was kino

>>740870161
>classic TBC
>gladiator warrior spec
Did I miss something? Did they release SoD TBC when i wasn't looking?

OHHHHHH I MISS TURTLE WOW

>>740849394
It doesn't need updates.

Needs more elf races.

>>740873405
blood elves killed wow by attracting endless women and troons

>>740867256
https://youtu.be/0TSGUf1xbF8

Why would Blizzad do if this happened today?

The only way to bring back WoW is to fully encrypt the game files and have completely different itemisation.

>>740870161
Classic doesnt even have half a mil players you fucking retard
Parses arent a player count. Every boss killed generates 1 parse per player. When you full clear a 10 boss tier on 25m you generate 250 parses. And thats not even accounting for alts which are way more rampant in classic raids because of gdkps and it being so fucking easy

Look at characters with keys logged in retail and it obliterates classic

>>740873983
Ban the griefers, issue a public apology and reiteration of the social contract, and add a reference to the deceased in the following month's trading post. This entire ordeal would cost a .5 patch.

>>740874708
>wowwwwww why are you comparing apples to apples? what about oranges?

>>740848670
The game being solved and min maxing obsession.
You can fix the game being solved with balance patches, no one knew what class was going to be the best when you got nerfs or buffs between patches so people just played the what they wanted to, and raids/guilds filled with a bit of everything. Filling every raid/guild with the best class of the patch was unrealistic apart from tip top players with many alts in the top guilds.
People also took leveling slow and were thrilled to see a blue drop here n there. Now with the obsession to min max everyone needs to get to max level ASAP and start raiding. I really don't know how you kill this kind of mentality in a vertical progression game like wow.

>>740848670
Basically everything that made MMOs great can no longer exist
>playing with people from around the world was actually a huge novelty in 2005, now extremely common to the point zoomers/alphaoomers have no idea it didn't always exist
>the chatroom experience old MMOs gave has been totally replaced by discord and other social media
>spending 100+ hours grinding just to get max level wasn't unrealistic since so many games at the time were slow burns that took a lot of effort
>similarly waiting hours just to get a dungeon group together was common, but with modern games matching you into groups in minutes/seconds it's hard to justify
>old MMOs had a crazy range of items with wildly different stats, but this is impossible to replicate in a world where everything is hyper optimized and people will know their bis sets before ever having to personally experiment with them
>pvp also has to compete with games that make the entire experience take minutes, so spending hours stalking other groups around before initiating a huge war is just too much for zoomies
Genuinely the only way is for pservers to make a comeback, since they're exclusively played/ran by autist purists who will enforced an "old-MMO experience"

>>740873136
Regular updates are the lifeblood of an MMO. Some people might be okay with an MMO that is forever suspended in stasis, most aren't.

>>740875109
Its not apples to apples, because classic content is a joke everyone full clears while retail raids people extend for weeks to kill a single boss
Retail raiding is almost entirely for high end play while in classic its the ground floor

>>740876468
isn’t retail mythic dead anyway so they’re switching it to flex so you won’t need 20 poopsockers anymore

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>>740848670
because people started treating internet chatrooms with a game attached to it as a full time job rather than as an internet chatroom with a game attached to it.
also back in the 90s and 00s internet chatrooms were still novel and cool and we hadnt had 20 years of social media bullshit infecting the world around us

>>740877252
Yes because m+ has become the dominant way to gear, so only people looking for a high end challenge raid
Which is why you need to look at m+ for playerbase numebrs

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used to play tranny wow before it got blizz'd (earned it award unfortunately). tried some other pservers and even retail before figuring out the wow experience of encountering and interacting with randos is extremely rare now as people are more interested in optimizing their gameplay rather than exploring the world. currently trying out FFXIV as a surrogate elf game, it's alright. not going to pretend it can match the mechanics of classic, it's a very easy game, but I do actually bump into and interact with other players that aren't miserable cunts, so I consider it an upgrade. also it has catgirls.

>>740878663
we're talking about mmos in this thread, hivvie, not moviegames featuring tranny erp chatroom side activities