Science says skill expression, variety:depth of choice, and social identity are the definition of fun. Can you come up with a perfect game?
>>741325283Real life.
Leveling isn't good. WotLK lost 70% of trial players by level 10. Apparently, vanilla Classic only got sub-1M level 60s.https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/news/what-if-wow-quietly-revealed-a-9-million-subscriber-number/Approximately nobody wants a dumbed down, forced tutorial for dozens to hundreds of hours. You can do everything leveling can do (questing; power) with equipment without massively segregating players and obsoleting 90% of the world, and if you make durability repair cost materials, you have millions of repairs worth of materials being relevant in the economy, plus edge of your seat risk:reward (one of the most beneficial and compelling of experiences). People want to live in a world.
>>741325283Do you actually have any sources on that? If you're going to say science says, I want to see the actual papers that were written about it.
>>741325283My perfect MMO would be just an endless chain of threads on an online imageboard discussing MMO gameplay and not actually playing or making video games. Oh wait, I'm already playing that. Awesome.
>>741327957The framework I'm referring to is Self-Determination Theory (Deci & Ryan).For games specifically, look up:•"The Motivational Pull of Video Game Feedback, Rules, and Social Interaction: Another Self-Determination Theory Approach"•"Self-Determination Theory and the Facilitation of Intrinsic Motivation, Social Development, and Well-Being" (2000)The basic idea is that competence (mastery/skill expression), autonomy (meaningful choice), and relatedness (social connection/identity) are among the strongest predictors of intrinsic motivation and enjoyment. Intrinsic motivation is doing things for the fun of it. Extrinsic motivation is doing things for physical rewards like money. Extrinsic reward is far surpassed by intrinsic reward.The theory should be pretty self explanatory. Can you think of a height of enjoyment that's not skill expression, choice, and social identity? So, if the height of intrinsic motivation is the height of fun, fun has been solved (since 1985).
>>741328598>Can you think of a height of enjoyment that's not skill expression, choice, and social identity?Sitting out and enjoying a view. Learning sometimes. Forming connections with other people. Comedy and laughing.
>>741328908>Sitting out and enjoying a viewI can do that shit in any game, anon>Learning sometimesu mean like learning how to beat a boss? again, any game>Comedy and laughing.an yet again, any game>Forming connections with other peopleI got discord for thatso tell me: what value do mmos really have?
>>741328908>Sitting out and enjoying a view.Mastery and choice.>Learning sometimes.Mastery, choice, and perhaps relatedness.>Forming connections with other people.Relatedness.>Comedy and laughing.Definitely relatedness, perhaps mastery and choice.
>>741329181You're confused, I also think MMOS are a shitty Skinner box genre, which is what emboldened the mobile game market to get as bad as it is. And that OP's beliefs on fun are weird.>>741329214>Mastery and choice.Mastering what? Looking?Also, why are you using different words now? Mastery and skill expression have different definitions. You tell me to look for one thing, and you reveal that I was actually supposed to find something else. And you could say they're related and tied together; there's some nuance in that. But relatedness and social identity are just two different things. The only thing that carried over is choice. And that shit is so fucking nebulous you can slap that tag on anything, since unless you're mind controlled, you choose to do every action you take. Your choices can and will be influenced, but you still made all of them.
>>741328598PENS is pretty good, too.https://www.scribd.com/document/517239630/PENS-Sept07-1-1
>>741330068>Mastering what? Looking?Mastery over the environment. The satisfaction of advancement and status.>Also, why are you using different words now?Mastery and skill expression are meant to describe the same thing. Competence is the fulfillment of personal capability. How are they different in this light?>But relatedness and social identity are just two different things.They're not. "All is vanity." When you relate to another, the juncture is *you* and someone else.
How did the French manage to make the best MMORPG of 2026?
nutriments nigger thread
>>741330068>you choose to do every action you takeI was using (meaningful) choice in place of "autonomy", which means "acting by personal choice, where your actions align with your genuine internal values rather than external pressure". You're immersed in freedom and self expression in relation to your surroundings.
>>741325283There is no such thing as a single perfect game. All players have different values. Trying to create one game in which all possible forms of skill expression exist on a remotely level playing field is an interminably enormous resource sink.
>>741325283>Can you come up with a perfect game?Can you?
>>741330983Are you contributing? If the thread has meaning, shouldn't you stay on topic?
>>741325283No, that's not what science says. What science says is that different players are motivated differently, repeated across different models of the same thing every time. You fail at understanding what you read.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_typeshttps://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/timmy-johnny-and-spike-2013-12-03https://quanticfoundry.com/gamer-types/
>>741330703>Mastery over the environmentWhat are you fucking mastering? 90% of the time, when someone enjoys a view, they go down an already-trodden path or take the elevator up. Sometimes they don't go anywhere; they look out their window. You are not mastering shit. And "The satisfaction of advancement and status"? When you're looking out at nature, you are happy there wasn't any advancement. That only works when you are looking at the view of a city or some other man-made place. And what status? Most views aren't yours. They're either nature or the buildings. If you go on a hike up a hill to look at a lake, there's no status in that. I guess you need money for admission to some places. But when is that impressive?>How are they different in this light?Okay, since you're uneducated on this. I will explain human interaction to you. Even if two things mean the same thing, they end up as separate things because they are different versions of that meaning. Mastery implies the journey; skill expression implies the results. I admitted they are related enough that you could mix them up. But you shouldn't because inconsistency makes you look dishonest. And that means you're wrong. So don't do that.>They're notYes, they are. One is how you are to others as a collective. One is how you are to others as individuals. These mean two different things. When someone else is a collection of people is looked at and is felt differently from when that someone else is Jerry, your pal. If you say they're the same, you're either trying to change facts to fit what you believe is correct (lying) or are just not actually understanding them. (being retarded)>>741331338His contribution is warning the populace that you aren't a human. And can't be reasoned like one.
>>741331158>All players have different values.People are genetically 99.9% the same. You see this in risk seeking. PvP games are by far the most popular. The question is if differing opinions are trained, and I think they are. But one of the most common shared experiences is adrenergics (tunneling; the shakes). Risk:reward. Your whole body working to line up the best experience possible. Are games that provide this the best and most memorable experiences? Yes. Can you think of an example of a genre that shouldn't have a high form of skill expression? Stardew Valley? No one would reasonably complain if it had better combat.>Trying to create one game in which all possible forms of skill expression exist on a remotely level playing field is an interminably enormous resource sink.People have a generally similar level of enjoyment and challenge. People almost exclusively consider Souls games to be really challenging, and there's an argument to be had on if a more normal difficulty level (e.g., better tells) would be objectively better. But normal people can get good at all reasonable difficulty levels in reasonable time. Think about it. Games like Skyrim and Minecraft would be objectively better with better combat, and it would be easy to make a common difficulty.
>>741331882Those models classify player preferences. SDT is a theory of motivation. "Some players like PvP and others like exploration" doesn't contradict SDT. It just describes different activities through which players satisfy competence, autonomy, and relatedness. Just because people choose different activities doesn't mean that people wouldn't favor the same thing if aware of and motivated to experience optimals. Obesity exists when fitness objectively increases QOL (enjoyment; reaction time). "Are all people motivated by the same 3 things" and "can all intrinsic motivation be explained by the same 3 things" are obviously answered by "yes" as far as I've found. Again, can you think of something that's the height of fun that can't be explained by skill expression / mastery, meaningful choice / autonomy, and personal identity / relatedness?
>>741325283Swtor before the expansions
>>741331957>What are you fucking mastering?I meant the status quo of being in a state where you can enjoy the view.>When you're looking out at nature, you are happy there wasn't any advancement.I meant the advancement of the universe, including you.>And what status?How is being free and finding enjoyment to view your surroundings not status?>Mastery implies the journey; skill expression implies the results.Mastery, besides "mastering", also means "the state of having mastered".>Yes, they are. One is how you are to others as a collective. One is how you are to others as individuals.You can have social identity when only considering one other person.
>>741332042>Can you think of an example of a genre that shouldn't have a high form of skill expressionPicross is a game where you can't add more ways to be better, or else you'd ruin it. Rigid puzzles in general, are built with that in mind. Sure, additional solutions could be fun, but you don't have the authority to say that they all should have that.>People have a generally similar level of enjoyment and challengeThat is the biggest lie I have read this year. Have you actually looked at game journalists or women? They want easy as fuck shit with barely any gameplay. Others want games that mentally rape you. Sure, most people want something in between. But that middle ground is too small for it to be worth it. Also, do you ever think that even if a game has better combat, it wouldn't improve the game as much as the enhancement of a different aspect? Why make combat better when the parts that aren't combat are what people want? You also risk ruining a game trying to do shit like that. If a game is built with aspect A as the main appeal and Aspect B is there to support it in some way, enhancing B can have unintended consequences on the game's balancing, focus, and appeal. If something isn't broke, don't fix it.
>>741333091You are just talking out of your ass now.
>>741332460Player preferences inherently hook into motivation. People are not all the same.
>>741333207>Picross>Rigid puzzlesI don't think a game that maximizes the parameters of its design disproves the benefit of maximizing the designs of more involved genres.>lieNot everything you disagree with is a lie. I haven't been dishonest at all.>Sure, most people want something in between.Consider WoW gameplay. The game has a huge demographic, and people don't complain about the difficulty.>But that middle ground is too small for it to be worth it.I don't think you have the numbers for that.>Also, do you ever think that even if a game has better combat, it wouldn't improve the game as much as the enhancement of a different aspect?Moment-to-moment gameplay is the most important aspect. Sometimes, large periods of play are something besides combat (e.g., gathering, crafting, and trading), but most people are going to enjoy combat the most and the most often. And combat has caps on improvement, so it's not as if you're foregoing improving other things indefinitely.
>>741330397What is this image actually saying?
>>741333282How?
>>741333335Again, SDT isn't disproven by people liking different things. Intrinsic motivation just categorizes these into 3 things, "psychological needs".
>>741334639Prediction of "still playing after 8 months" was vastly more accurate if people could define fun via intrinsic motivation.
>>741334448>I haven't been dishonest at all.Then you're just spreading misinformation. An untruth is an untruth no matter it's untention.>Consider WoW gameplay. The game has a huge demographic, and people don't complain about the difficultThey complain about a lot in that game thouhg. I can't say it's hated by it's players but there is a lot they don't like about it.>I don't think you have the numbersAnd you don't have the numbers saying otherwise. But even then, it's easier to just make games that are either easy or hard and not one in that goldilocks zone. Mostly because it's different for different people. >that last oneI think you just have that autism that makes it hard to see that other people have different opinions. Which could explain a lot about your views. Like the big picture can easily be more important in the right games. And focusing on that gives just as much, if not more, fun than small picture stuff. But because it's not fun to you personally, you just deny the possibility that it's fun to other people. Like you don't go, I see you go nu-uh. And this whole bit is more about other people in this thread. Another warning, you can't be reasoned with.>>741334798I don't think I can explain it in a way other than word things like some kinda hippy salesman life coach trying to sell me something. Your sentences are made of big words and little meaning. You are clearly a man with more intense autism than mine. I don't think you will be able to understand.
>>741325283>Can you come up with a perfect game?https://store.steampowered.com/app/2166690/Savage_Ultimate_Boss_Fight/
Albion Online.
>>741331319•No leveling. Allow all zones and players to be relevant.•No bind-on. Let everything be traded so that people stay interested in farming and trading.•No gold repairs. Make repairs cost materials so that cloths, leathers, ores, and enchanting mats are always relevant and provide different professions with fun crafts.
>>741330397I read this as PENIS
Why, of all fucking things, would someone make a bot to post about perceived wrongfun in MMOs of all things? Is it some retard just hoping this will successfully psyop someone? Like, hoping a game dev will swing by this place like it's still 2010, see these threads, and be convinced to follow the boy's ideology? Or is it someone from the industry itself trying to plant some weird artificial seed in people's minds that all these retarded ideas are some objective truth, so when their game comes out in thr future that uses these concepts as core pillars, people will ignore the itching-scratching in the back of their heads and just accept it?
>>741336220It's not a bot, it's an extremely autistic, like nonfunctional in real life autistic, retard who cannot into other people.
>>741335972he who is hungry thinks of bread
>>741335447>Then you're just spreading misinformationIt's not spreading misinformation to claim that people have similar challenge levels. WoW, FFXIV, ESO, TOR, Lost Ark, New World -- developers design difficulty they can complete, and this applies to the vast majority of people.
>>741336220>>741336309If you could argue the content, I'm sure you would.
>>741336923I did. It's too complex for you to understand because you keep starting from the same position that everyone is secretly motivated by and can be trained to be motivated by the same things. This isn't true.
>>741337101Then explain how mastery, autonomy, and relatedness aren't the definitive height of fun.
