>Coyote time is bad because it's an aesthetic deceptionFinally, somebody said it.
>>741445378Alright, who’s the e-celeb you got your opinion from
>>741445486The GOAT
>>741445378>>Coyote timeThere needs to be a better name for this.
>>741445628why? its a great name
>>741445378I didn't implement coyote time in my platformer cause I felt the game didn't need it and I've never gotten complaints. Feels alright man
>>741445378I'll watch your video later but it is a necessary deception due to delays in controllers, TVs, monitors, etc. while it is less necessary for some today due to less input delay it can still be a huge issue for televisions specifically
>It’s not meant to prescribe a set of ideals which all games must follow. However valuable any guideline might be, it’s always (or almost always) possible to imagine a game which is made better by ignoring such considerations. A great game cannot necessarily be made just by applying a set of principles.
>>741445628Coyotevania
>>741445378Games that give you a small margin for jumping at the edge of cliffs just feel better to play. It's one of those subtle things that isn't super obvious but when it's not there the game will just feel like crap in a vague way that's hard to pin down, like when games don't have dynamic camera movement and just stays perfectly centered on the character or when jumping from a moving surface doesn't carry momentum. You can make up justifications for anything but at the end of the day subtle coyote jumping just feels good to play. Saying "this doesn't make sense so it's bad" is backwards logic because it doesn't factor in the only thing that actually matters for a mechanical system in a game; is it enjoyable to use and interact with. Of course this only applies to subtle edge jumping, super extreme edge jumping like in Donkey Kong is another matter, although I do like that also.
>>741445905>I've never gotten complaints.that's a natural consequence of nobody playing it
Repostan because the previous thread died not long after my original post>>741443606>>741442719>I could see someone who plays a lot of them get frustrated by constantly having to relearn it though.>Does it make sense? His thesis is that coyote time is bad because it makes ledge behavior between games inconsistent which will confuse and frustrate players. Is there a noticeable uptick in players being confused by coyote time as a mechanic?I think the "inconsistency" argument doesn't hold up. As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, every time you play a new game you have to relearn mechanics. (e.g. You wouldn't expect every character in a platformer to jump the exact same way as in other platformers). Why does Matthew have double standards for jumping and coyote time?
>>741445378Are there any platformers where the front foot would actually drop like that? Normally, the character stays level as if the platform continued.
>>741445378You ever played a game without it? Even Crash Team Racing had coyote time.
>>741445378Mega Man can stand on a platform with one foot off and it has never been a problem. You learn how to play every game by its own rules.
>>741445628Pretentious dumbfucks like OP and the eceleb he dickrides are contractually obligated to use stupid names for mechanics.
>>741445628Bro I got it: Wolf time
>>741445628Yeah, why is it called "time"? Shouldn't it be Coyote Space or is it more like "It's Coyote time!"
>>741445993kek
why does this need a name
>>741446398It's, Coyote? Time!
>>741446398because I think most programmers use a timer to count the time spent off the ledge
>>741446398Because it counts X time after you lose grounded state and during this X time the game still accepts jump inputs.
>>741446437what is wrong with it having one
>>741446372>grab old beloved character>give it a tumblr noise>call it a brand new characterWhy was this allowed?
>>741445628Don't disrespect one of the GOATs faggot
>>741445378Why is the Coyote Time a curved triangle instead of a rectangle? There are NO video games where the "jump-point" is lower than the actual platform when one foot is off the edge.
>>741446049That might be part of it. It sold decently, like 2000 copies by now I wanna say. Mostly positive reviews and online word of mouth, some complaints about the controls but nobody mentioned the lack of coyote time.
>>741446437Because "that brief window of time where you can still input a jump after moving off a surface" doesn't roll off the tongue
>>741446484>>741446538What? But he still has one foot on the ledge. His hitbox is still on the ledge. Also, time still shouldn't be a factor, it would be how far off the ledge he is.
>>741445628Pit sweat
>>741446613That's because only game devs and autists know about it. Casuals feel something is wrong, but cannot describe it.
>>741446437Why do you?
>>741445378What? Gameplay is THE most important part of a game, it doesn't matter if it defies physics or is an "aesthetic deception" or whatever bullshit you pull out your ass, It objectively feels better to implement
>>741446749Nah, the complaints mostly came from people who didn't seem familiar with the kind of platformer it was trying to be. But I'm sure you know better than me.
>>741446695>>741446582You're thinking of this, which OP's picture isn't depicting. It's retarded because the woman's left foot IS still on the ledge, but its trying to depict a character who is fully off the ledge and is falling. There are plenty of games that let you do this.
>>741446782>Gameplay is THE most important part of a gameThen why are you so against the idea of having to time your jumps better?
Why was Donkey Kong Country used as an example when jumping out of a roll midair is an intended mechanic of the game? Even in his own example he shows a collectable you have to collect by doing it. At first it may seem like a mistake or 'aesthetic deception' if you do it by accident, but as it becomes clear you need to do it and it's intended, then instead it's just an ability Donkey, Diddy, Dixie and Kiddy have, and it's a 'truth of the game's world'.
gay handholding feature for uncs who can't time jumps
>>741446695Because the picture in the op is shit.
>context insensitive>intrinsically motivated gameplay>aesthetically undeceptiveIs pong the best game of all time?
fuck you I'm calling it ledge jump and thats it
>>741446849You might see it as being more causal, but in reality it just makes the game feel better. You still need to time your jumps, you don't need a lot of coyote time
>>741446861>Why was Donkey Kong Country used as an example when jumping out of a roll midair is an intended mechanic of the gameIronic juxtaposition
>>741446952Wrong! Once you reach the top or bottom of the screen, holding up or down will no longer let you move further up or down, meaning up and down are context sensitive actions!
i saw that, gayboy
>>741445378If a mechanic appears to be janky but is consistent once you learn it, it's fineAnd this isnt even jank
>>741446871>>741446952You're extrinsically autistic and retarded.
>>741445378>back foot's still on the platformI can still jump.
>>741445378>aesthetic deception'Dishonest game mechanics' is a better and more descriptive term that doesn't need 6 minutes of rambling to explain.
>>741446146Most games with a double jump let you walk off a platform then jump
>>741445628Jump buffer zone, which should apply to all the bordered and shaded areas in the image.I absolutely hate all these forced terms that come out of "games journalism" - I blame that Sterling tran-faggot.Other terms that deserve ridicule include:>solved game>failstate>asset flip>soulslike>shmup>metroidvania>aesthetic deceptionThat's as many as I can think of, thankfully.
>>741447125>>'Dishonest game mechanics' is a better and more descriptive termDishonest in what way?
>>741447168>Jump buffer zoneToo autistic sounding
>>741446023>Games that give you a small margin for jumping at the edge of cliffs just feel better to play.Coyote time is just the Aim Assist of platformers. It "feels good" because it's cheating in your favor that you don't perceive as cheating. It "feels good" the same way a child feel good winning against an adult when he doesn't realize that the adult cheated in his favor.
Did 'hog/Mork ghostwrite this video or is Matt turning into someone who insists upon himself?
Most platforms are rather cartoony, and this is cartoon physics. What kind of fucking retard would take issue with this?
How come people defend Nier Automata's ending lying to you, but not Telltale games lying to you with "x character will remember that"?
>>741447168But buffering is something you do before the actual action happens and zones are areas and walking off a cliff isn't an area.
>>741447168>shmupWhat else do you call it? And don't say "shooting game" because that applies to Call of Duty.
>>741447126Double-jumping makes sense, since its already established that the character can jump in mid-air. But are we talking about double-jumping or just regular?
>>741445378I have no idea what this image is trying to show or explain.
>>741446023my theory is that the total system latency is what determines how much coyote time feels right. if I'm right then console games would need more coyote time than PC games because controllers have more input lag than keyboards and TVs have more output lag than PC monitors typically. this is assuming the game is running at a locked 60 fps on both. if you run the game at a higher framerate on PC then that would once again reduce the necessary coyote time.intuitively the right time to jump is the LAST POSSIBLE time to jump. that's how you maximize the distance of a jump and it leads to players feeling the input lag when it makes them fail the jump.
>>741447251The rules as implicitly presented to the player are different than the rules the game actually runs on.Similar: GameMasters fudging the dice.
>>741447259How so? That's how you'd describe it in programming. The alternative would be a "grace period", which I think is also fine since you can use it in other topics. I personally have an issue with precise language outside of academic contexts. Not everything has to be professionalized - not everything should be taken seriously, though journotrannies fight tooth-and-nail to make video games into a social science.
>>741447324What thread did you mean to post in? It sure as fuck wasn't this one.>>741447402You might be a redneck.
>>741447465this is the random retarded qestions thread, THOUGH
>>741447440What if the game, in the tutorial, straight up tells you that there's a small window where you can still jump after running off a ledge?
>741447065>not knowing what "extrinsically" means
>>741447465Nier Automata's ending is an aesthetic deception. People yet defend it for some reason.
>>741447452>More people are going to understand what "coyote time" means than "jump buffer zone". "Jump buffer zone" is vague, coyote time is clear and obviousThis but opposite.
>>741447464>How so? That's how you'd describe it in programming.no, it's not. it's literally a TIME. the term "zone" does not apply, in programming or elsewhere.
>>741446827Opened the thread for this. Thanks for posting it, anon.
>>741447168More people are going to understand what "coyote time" means than "jump buffer zone". "Jump buffer zone" is vague, coyote time is clear and obvious because everybody in the west is familiar with Looney Tunes and what the Coyote is known for.Also out of your whole list, the only terms I would call stupid are Soulslike and Metroidvania because naming (sub)genres after the most prominent game of its (sub)genre is stupid and vague, like Roguelike and/or Roguelite. What's a Roguelike? A game like Rogue with a specific mechanics, I guess. But then when is it a Roguelike and when is it a Roguelite? (I know the distinction but most don't and confuse the two, please don't explain it to me.) But then people still bitch about "immersive sim" describing a particular design philsophy after all this time while nobody has come up with a better name, so whatever.
>>741447387Virtual dodgeball.
>>741447556Then it's fine.
>>741445378This is acceptable but ONLY if you have double-jump unlocked
>>741447641Ah, I see. I interpret "buffer" as "waiting for input", though for the actual jumping period I'd consider it a "grace period". I refuse to use "coyote time" - it sounds retarded.
It is the goal of a game to lie to you in a way that provides a better experience, whether that be in or against your favor. Racers keep AI close to you so engagements continue to happen. Rooms may not always line up in euclidian manner. Hitboxes are always a little larger than they're "supposed" to be. Anyone who has a problem with this fundamentally does not understand video games as a medium.
>>741445628It's a great name that succinctly describes the mechanic, only an uncultured zoomer who never grew up with Looney Toons would think otherwise.
>>741445378Coyote time is good as long as it follows the "definition of fun" that gaben made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGpFEv1-mAo
>>741445378>coyote time is badHe didn't say that, he explicitly said aesthetic deception is always a tradeoff and could be worthwhile.
>>741447670>More people are going to understand what "coyote time" means than "jump buffer zone". "Jump buffer zone" is vague, coyote time is clear and obviousThis but the opposite. One is a technical term that anyone with a brain can figure out, and the other is a reference to an old cartoon and we can't even agree ITT if "time" is the right word to use.
>>741447806It sounds gay.
>>741445628Coyotelikes
>>741447863it's based on time, how is time not the right word to use lmao
>>741447168Solved game definitely doesn't deserve ridicule, unless if you mean people using it incorrectly. It's a "game theory" term but it's closer to a math term than anything related to video games.
>>741447776>I interpret "buffer" as "waiting for input"buffer is okay but the term "zone" is spatial.>I refuse to use "coyote time" - it sounds retarded.did you not watch loony toons as a kid or what? to me it sounds funny because the coyote is funny.
Don't e-celeb videos have comment sections? If you want to comment on the video, do it there on youtube. Why bring it to /v/? The e-celeb won't see your comment here.
Why? It's a great mechanic as long as it's not completely overdone for the sake of casualization. It completely solves the issue of tight platforming where you aren't 100% certain where the border of a platform and your character's collision box actually end.
>>741447931Its just as much based on distance, so space makes just as much sense>>741447945space and time are the same thing. its
>>741447806https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrJDjLfgrWcfor me that word is forever linked to this retard
>>741447947What does this have to do with e-celebs? should I know someone you watch?
>>741447707Do you think that no game should ever have an unintuitive mechanic that isn't explicitly tutorialized?
>>741446582Sekiro has coyote time, it's how you can jump out of the Demon of Hatred's arena to cheese him to jump off the cliff.
>this retarded nonsensical name is good because it references old cartoons my crusty geriatric ass grew up withthe absolute state of this place
>>741447863I wouldn't say zone is an accurate term because I'm sure most games would implement this mechanic by counting down the amount of frames a player's been in the air after walking of a ledge. Maybe with an additional state, like "falling_coyote" allows for jumping but the player switches to the standard "falling" state after N frames which doesn't allow for it (unless there's double/triple/quadruple jumping or whatever).
>>741447168No sensible programmer would ever implement this as a zone instead of a timer.
>>741448001nothing on it is based on distance, it just gives you grace period to input jump after losing grounded state
>>741447934I did see it being used academically, though my disdain for it is exclusive to non-academic spaces - see >>741447464Seeing academic terms be used in other contexts in a hamfisted way rubs me the same way I see chemistry terms used in "gender theory".
>>741448054low effort bait
Input latency necessitates coyote time otherwise jump timing is all over the place and feels like shit to play.Nobody has ever complained about coyote time, what youtuber told you to get mad over it?
>>741448001>Its just as much based on distanceretard
>>741448025No. Just that the game should attempt to actively lying to you.
Did zoomers seriously not watch Looney Tunes growing up? I was born 50 years after most episodes were produced and they were still airing on tv constantly and absolutely fucking hilarious.
>>741447947Finally, someone with a brain.>>741448017Look at the first two replies itt
>25 minutes of vague ranting about disjointed nothing with no structure>all the comments are "wow he's back guys, our parasocial relationship guys!!" without discussing anything from the vid>so joyless and drab he didn't include the funny bit of ps1 coyote getting wall'd or countless other examples of how games can use fun visual illusions for creative purposes>half the examples he gives have nothing to do with aesthetic like the nier thingi legit dont understand this video's purpose, retard thinks he coined the new ludo dissonance with that weak shit
>>741448116Probably the same youtubers that coined the term. It's a good term, but it's a mechanic that has existed forever so seeing it now being a debate point suddenly tells me some mouthy faggot is behind it.
>>741448054kek zoomie with no shared cultural references
>>741445378not an issue in project nortubel
>>741448259>aesthetics are only about visualsHoly retard
>>741448162I don't see where the lie would be unless the game specifically tells you that there's no grace period after leaving a platform.
>>741445378>aesthetic deceptionHe should've called it dishonest gamemaking
>>741448162All games are fundamentally lying to you. The player only needs to know what the developer wants them to know. Getting mad because a game lied to you is like getting mad about an actor in a movie not doing stunts.
>>741447324nier automata's ending is going for a certain emotional effect to sell its themes, while telltale games pretending choices matter is a tired trick. it worked in twd season 1 and wolf among us i guess, but after that it became too obvious (particularly twd season 2 is really bad about giving you choices that it invalidates in no time, literally a few minutes after the choice in some cases)so nier automata is a better liar and other nier games don't try to trick you the same way constantly
>>741448259He's a GAME DEVELOPER now which means has has an elevated outlook on game design unlike the peasants that simply play them. HE MADE A GAME which means he knows the ins and outs of the "biz" (the business for aforementioned peasants) more than most.
>>741448259Yeah like half of the examples in the video were invisible walls, pretty surface level take to be honest.
>>741448162Games are fully built around lying to you, retard
>>741448347>All games are fundamentally lying to you.what do you mean
>>741448259I don't understand why you would watch it or why you have no shame at admitting to it. Go the fuck back faggot.
>no coyote time>have to press jump button before platform edge due to input latencyepic. bravo mr limey retard fuckass piece of shit.
>>741448162Just because they don't spell out the nuances of every mechanic to your face, doesn't mean they're "lying" to you in any way. Some things you're meant to discover on your own, and often they're pretty simple to figure out - such is the case of "coyote time"
>>741448347unfortunately autism has gotten out of control in the gene pool, autists need every single little thing explained and shown to them. it's why everyone is so obsessed with deep lore the past decade
>>741448329The point is that there's no way to know whether a platform has coyote time before you interact with it. Like in the case of an invisible wall, you would expect to be able to go through an empty space.
>>741448347If the game is lying about its own rules, you should be mad. When you get hit by an attack that didn't visually connect, that's a fuck up, not smoke and mirrors
>>741445378>allowance made for the fundamental imperfection of game control being done by a human manipulating an interface device>"IT'S LE BAD BECAUSE IT'S LE NOT THE COMPLETE TRUTH"nigger you're retarded
>>741448329It's automatically implied by the game using a simulation of gravity, that if your character's foot are on the ground the character would be falling instead of still being able to jump. The lie is in tricking the player into thinking they nailed the jump, instead of having failed, but still getting rewarded.>>741448347Not providing all the information != lying.
>>741448476>bro imagine wanting to learn about game design when you're on a board where we talk about video gamesTrying too hard. You go the fuck back.
>>741448651>The lie is in tricking the player into thinking they nailed the jump, instead of having failed, but still getting rewarded.unless the player actually pressed the button at the right time but the total system lag would have lead to a failed jump unjustly. then the game is treating the player fairly instead of unfairly punishing. conservative amounts of coyote time are effectively a bug fix.
>>741448054this nigga definitely takes pride in not knowing shakespeare references
>>741445378I disagree on multiple levelsAny mechanic can be goodThere are for sure instances where coyote can be bad, but most probably not because it's a deceptionA classic example is dead cells, there coyote has a reasoning behind its implementation: the platforming it's not meant to be a challenge, so coyote it's a way to make you flow through the levels betterAnother example: in mirrors edge there is coyote because you are in first person and you can't sense with precision when you step into a void. Even if platforming is a challenge, it's not fun to look at your feets when you are about to jump.
>>741448473Do you think there's really a jumping bandicoot?
>>741448645Why is Coyote Time good, but Aim Assist bad?
>>741448695/v/ and 4chan as a whole only cares about discussing waifus, this is a porn site first and foremost as it always has been newfren
He never said it was bad, just that it was an example of aesthetic deception and how it can give the player a false expectation.It really telling that this is the part everyone is zeroing into and misinterpreting.
I think having the visuals match up with the jump affordance of a platform is preferable long term than having an arbitrary amount of time you need to memorize to get the "real" maximum jump potential, it's a fine crutch but like with most crutches meant for novices, experts will also want to use it
>>741448426>>741448347>ummm if LotR has dragons why can't it have a Mazda??Are we having this argument again? A line is crossed when the devs are lying to subvert your gameplay experience. Like when AI opponents are rubberbanded in racing games and get random boosts when they're off your screen. Nobody likes that shit, that's dishonest. The game should play by its own rules
>>741448284He probably doesn't even know what a "Gilligan cut" is
>>741448764You can turn aim assist off in most games, at least on PC
>>741448762lol
>>741448764Modern aim assist is the equivalent of not even needing to hit the jump button when you come to the edge of a platform.
>>741448743Yeah, I think that's fine in theory. But is it always the case? Or isn't that used as an excuse to "help" the player?
>>741448695>I watch performative youtuber nigger filth so I can regurgitate their monetized prattling retardation under the guise of genuine knowledgeGod that's even worse, put a trip on or something so people know to ignore you.
>>741447430>my theory is that the total system latency is what determines how much coyote time feels right.You're pretty on point, that sort of thing also applies to almost every grace mechanic in any game, though it's also got a lot to do with frame time.If you've ever gone from playing an FPS on a 60hz screen to a 120+hz screen, you'll pretty quickly notice how much better everything feels to control, and how much less difficulty you have with movement and reactive aiming.It boils down to PERCEPTIBLE input delay, which is basically the input delay of the game you're playing when running at either it's highest framerate, or the refresh rate of your screen, whichever is lower.
>>741448764aim assist isn't bad eithershooting should be about tactics and positioning not doing a 360 twitch reflex spinshot while slide jumping
can you summarize the thesis of the video in a couple of sentences?
>>741448867you didn't answer the question
>>741448785Due to input latency they will never match up
>>741448802Sounds like a circumcision you'd get on an island.
>>741448764Completely false equivalence, the aim assist of platforming would be if you just had to press X and Crash would automatically move through the air to land on the next platform perfectly. You are very stupid in addition to being a cunt.
>>741448867You should be able to turn off Coyote Time. I think that'd be a good solution to the whole debacle, if it can be called that.
>>741448952you can apply that logic to advocate for imprecision in everything thoughbeit
>>741448934He critiques things about other games that also affect his game, Logic Bombs.
>>741448772I've been here for 20 years at this point, sadly.>>741448917I know it's really hard for you to open your mind to other people's perspectives, but you know they got therapists to help you deal with your autism? I would really recommend it, it really helps people like yourself.
JUST CALL IT A COYOTE JUMP
>>741448896OOTbros we catching strays...
Why did he use a facebook mom character for his video?
>>741448989they both make it easier by lowering your required input precision, aim is about movement and coyote time is about timing but it's the same idea
>>741449039You haven't belonged here for 20, go back.
One of his weaker videos, it almost feels like a parody. I understand what he was going for but for the first time he's made a proper video it's hard for it to not sound really pretentious for the first half or so
>have to hear about "coyote time" and "aesthetic deception" for the next five yearsFuck this faggot
>>741449040pretty sure people do, if you jump during coyote time it would be a coyote jumplet's say a game has X frames where you can perform a coyote jump, would you refer to that length as coyote jump time or just coyote time?
>>741449006Or, how about this... if you accidentally fall off a cliff, just don't press the jump button?
>>741449108Completely doing something for you =/= a buffer zone that makes timing slightly easier by eliminating the imprecision caused both by input latency and imperfect visuals. You are very, very stupid.
>>741448952Wouldn't it be better for players to individually account for their system's latency than for the developer to apply a blanket solution? Maybe you could make the case for a console, but TVs and monitors also have varying amounts of input lag.
>>741446861He wasn't trying to suggest all forms of aesthetic deception were unintentional. Just giving a name to a phenomenon unique to games.
>>741448934"I made a game so now I'm going to posture about design like a freshman film student."
>>741449127Coyote time is a well known and established term in the game industry. aesthetic deception is faggy as fuck though
I think what I hate most about Western devs is that they grew up with the most aesthetically pleasing cartoony depictions and decided they would make grotesque mockeries of realistic proportions for their designs instead. I don't know what this has to do with the topic
>>741449006That's how you end up with a game like The Dark Ages, Mina the Hollower or Revita where you got twenty million options to customize the game's design because the designer didn't feel like designing a fucking game and just lets the player handle it. It's annoying in every way - I don't want to start off a game going through every option and having to test certain ones to see what/how they work, and it makes discussions aggravating because it just results in a circle of "but why didn't they fix this aspect" "well just turn on option XYZ if it's too hard/slow/etc.".
>>741448934The underlying systems of a game may or may not be entirely consistent with the visuals it provides and this informs how the player interacts with it. Whether this can be positive or negative comes down to context
>>741448989what you are describing is autoaim
>>741449079everyone has their kinks
I don't understand why reposting extremely shitty youtube video essays is not a bannable offense yet.
>>741447324This specific example is really baffling to me, the whole narrative is obviously fictional but the mechanics interacting with the narrative in a partially fictionalized way is somehow a step too far? It seems like a really bizarre way of interacting with media
>>741447863>One is a technical term that anyone with a brain can figure outThe problem is the lack of specificity.For example, it could also apply to the player's lower hitbox/raycast which determines if they're on an object they can jump on.Coyote time specifically implies the concept of a cartoon character being off the ground, while being able to interact with it like they were standing on a solid surface still for a brief window of time, ideally just before the player perceives it, at which point the time ends and they are then subject to the consequences of not being on a solid object.
I don't understand what point he was trying to make beyond ”invisible walls bad"
>>741448764one is established as a universal aspect the game and the other is an opt-in advantage where the aim assist on roller in some games may as well be hacks. you may as well say any input buffering is for casuals
>>741445378name two games that have thisbeing able to still jump when an invisible pixel of your character's hitbox is touching the ledge isn't coyote time btw
Are people acting like this is a new term? This has been a thing for years now What video are people even talking about?
>>741449405There is no pointHe just deperately tries to coin some new shitty game-dev term
>>741447806examples of Wile E. Coyote jumping while in the air?
>>741448764in one word, degrees.coyote time only affords you the couple of milliseconds it takes to make your brain's perception and response ("my character is walking to the edge of the platform, I am going to press the jump button to jump") have the intended effect (your character jumps instead of falling into a pit and dying)compare to something like Halo's level of aim assist which combines reticle magnetism and bullet magnetism to basically make it impossible to miss as long as you have your reticle in the right zip code (not even a bad thing for trying to aim in an FPS on the xbox using an xbox controller, but causes issues when it arrives on PC where the standard input device is mouse and keyboard)
>>741449187aim assist is also a buffer zone, it's the same shit
>>741445378>hourly thread where people develop extremely strong opinions on something theyve never thought about once before
>>741449473Off the top of my head, Smash Ultimate and Silksong. Most mainstream 2D platformers have it.
>>741449572The opinions have always been there and now we're scrutinizing them through discussion. You do like discussions on your image+text forum, right anon?
>>741449516that makes the difference implementation not mechanical
>>741445378this is made up, no game does this
Call it a "fall parry window"
>>741449225>The underlying systems of a game may or may not be entirely consistent with the visuals it provides and this informs how the player interacts with it.This is like an autist's point of view, everything needs to be concrete, everything needs to be transparent in it's intent and easily digested at first glance.The fact of the matter is if something is inconsistent in a game, a pastime based around repetition, you are going to learn it really quick and have it become automatic. It doesn't mean anything if visuals or whatnot are inconsistent between games if they are internally consistent.
>>741445628Character action time
>>741449192Technically I wouldn't even call coyote time a blanket solution cause every game implements it differently, and some games don't have it at all.But yeah, you're not wrong. Though modern TVs and monitors have modes to reduce input latency and modern wireless controllers don't have that much latency anymore, really. At least, the latency is barely visible to the naked eye in most cases (though that can also depend on the game of course, Skyrim on Switch has less input delay than Skyrim on Switch 2 for some baffling reason).
>>741449669
>>741449730>you are going to learn it really quick and have it become automaticthis justifies anything
>>741449664yes, and?
>game uses coyote time>level designers space gaps just a bit further to compensate for additional horizontal movement>now the same distance and timing as if the leniency never existedgamers are retards
>>741445628It's just a more granular "cartoon logic"
>>741449758Damn it! I was gonna post this, then i saw yours last on the reply chain. Fuck!
>>741449883DURRRRR
>>741449883>>level designers space gaps just a bit further to compensate for additional horizontal movementthey don't do this though, that's the point
>>741448764>Why is Coyote Time good, but Aim Assist bad?Aim Assist was unironically fine when it was limited to pre-Gyro console-only games. It's a feature that exists purely to make up for the jank as fuck nature of aiming with a stick as opposed to a mouse. The problem arose when they started putting it in games AFTER it was no longer needed; any system with a controller that has Gyro support does not need it, and any game with crossplay shouldn't have it. As soon as you remove the feature from its intended environment and use case you create an uneven playing field where it's better to deliberately use a worse control method purely so the game fudges the results for you, rather than the fudging being a universal and intended element of the game.
>>741449669Donkey Kong Country does this, but I think it's fine since it reinforces the cartoony-ness of the game. I think it would seem off in a game like Assassin's Creed or Halo, but it could be implemented with a theme-appropriate power-up.
>>741449669>>741449807I was just about to post how the new bubsy game literally has this and names it exactly like that.Genuinely why does nobody on /v/ actually know anything about videogames?
>>741449978they already did while in development. or did all the nes games get a quality of life patch recently?
>>741449978They definitely do in the later levels of Celeste.
>>741450037it's more of a term between developers, and most games don't have it as a togglable option, and most people have never played fucking bubsy
>>741449976The completely open space beneath the platform does great create differences that can have life or death impacts on the game, even if the average probably can't intentionally exploit it.
>>741450118I guess I relied enough on wave-dashing to never use it
>>741449839It's more relevant to video games seeing as they are designed with the assumption players are going to learn the game as they play it.
Why does Matt make zoomoids seethe so much?
>aesthetic deceptionMatt the CHAD just dropping the latest hot vidya term on us. You just know the people who hate this also say yellow paint is "needed" in video games. You just got called the fuck out
>>741450037>you haven't played Bubsy? What kind of gaymer are you?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mukhzo9OIL8
>>741446372They fucked off the clock.
>>741448938that was the answer to the question>>741449006you can't turn it off if jumps are actually designed around it because it lets you jump further
>>741448764Leeway is great for something finicky and shallow, like whether the invisible hitbox beneath your character's wildly animating limbs quite intersects. For something smooth and nuanced like precision aiming between complex targets, you can't reduce it to auto-headclick without losing somethinggenuinely pretty interesting question though
>>741450383Intellectually dishonest comparison because Matt's video is more about how having illogical things in games is necessary for them to be functional.
>>741449883Good gamefeel is emotionally intelligent. You approach this logically, therefore you are a cold and soulless automaton.
>>741449212>oh no a youtuber put more than 5 minutes of thought into his analysis video and uses a vocabulary more advanced than high school english>how pretentiousTell me you didn't graduate high school without telling me. Also he's been making these kinds of videos for years.
>>741450374It's a stupid term because a lot of dishonest gamemaking is not in fact about aesthetics. Like rubberbanding in racing game, it's the same problem he describes but what does it have to do with visuals? In fact he himself brings up the problem of fake hit/crit chance numbers, that's not part of games aesthetics, that's just numbers
>>741445378Coyote time, which is hopefully the last time I ever type that stupid fucking name, is needed (among other reasons such as input delay) because in most walking or running animations your character's "hitbox" with the ground and platforms is not as apparent. Megaman's hitbox (and should be) consistent through the whole animation, but the animation doesn't make it apparent
He only alludes to this, but this is why Sonic 2D platformers are amazing: they have little aesthetic deception and don't fake the physics. If you're off the ledge in sonic, you can't jump. If you're moving faster, you have inertia you can exploit to get places.Most platformers do not account for this, which is why so many people failed to make a successful Sonic clone.
>>741447670Metriodvania was originally only used to describe Symphony of the Night as it was a castlevania game that had a lot of metroid style mechanics instead of just being s straightforward platformerProple simple continued to use it to describe games that have the kinds of mechanics that SotN had. This is why Metroid is not a Metriodvania.
Gameplay Density is the only youtubespeak term that matters
>>741450817*a*simply*metroidvania
>>741449730I'm reminded of Yooka-Laylee where puzzle elements can act in inconsistent ways and solving puzzles becomes tedious guesswork rather than anything resembling pattern recognition. That's not fun, that's frustrating.
>>741448764The difference is in your ability to see what it happening. You don't really know how your character's mechanics actually work and when the game will decide you are or are not standing on a platform. Will they fall when one foot goes over or can they jump from their back foot or should it even matter to have to pay attention to their feet? It is also a 3D problem when games are not great at conveying 3D. It makes sense to just go with go with giving the player the benefit of the doubt since just walking off the edge is never really part of the difficulty in platformers and it should feel intuitive. In contrast, aiming is very precise. All you have to worry about is if one set of pixels overlap with another in most cases. There is no room for error in how you see what is happening. If you crosshair started changing shapes and taking steps across the screen while not really indicating what is below it, then a bit a buffer room would be reasonable there too. Aim assist is also only an issue in multiplayer games. There is nothing wrong with a single player game giving you some aim assist and also balancing around it. There are plenty of fun games with full lock on.
>>741450679>In fact he himself brings up the problem of fake hit/crit chance numbers, that's not part of games aesthetics, that's just numbersThe visual presentation of numbers on the screen is aesthetic. Its not all about the pretty looking aspects on the screen.
>>741449883Wow what made you think that?>tldw players thought one gun was statistically overpowered despite being identical to another just because it sounded louderhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDxiuHdR_T4
>>741450662Matt has always been a pseud extraordinaire and has continuously made the mistake of letting his own design preferences seep into alleged critical analysis.Now that he "made" a game (copying another game) he's even higher off his own farts.
>>741445378It always boils down to how you design with that.Coyote time can be great to make something that would be way too precise into a bearable jump.However, letting the user create a level like with Mario Maker will eventually turn into people abusing coyote time to make precise shit that doesn't even have a visual element to know when to jump.
>>741449730>This is like an autist's point of viewNo, it's just exactly how games are presented. >everything needs to be concrete, everything needs to be transparentI don't know what elicits this knee jerk response in that simply observing something gets interpreted as admonishing it. At no point is there an argument made that things need to be this or that way. However, being deceptive is certainly going to steer the player into acting a certain way.
>>741449345>"press x to swing sword">it makes you explode insteadWould you defend that?
>>741451029And yet you haven't made a single game or made a single sale of your art, music, storywriting, etc. Matt at least put his money where his mouth is. What he made is pretty simple but he's also a 1 man team just learning gamedev for shits and giggles.
>>741446732Underrated comment
>>741451112Hey Matt. You're a pretentious dickhead but riling up the DS2tards up so hard they are still seething to this day was based.
>matthew makes a video that is essentially a game design 201 lecture>retards on /v/ shit their pants and scream that he's being a pseudare... gamers retarded now? Is this the consequence of giving the general masses an iphone?
>>741451223>nowall gamers are fooled by simple smoke and mirrors, same cattle that think $9.95 is an amazing deal but $10 is out of budget
>>741451223Most people lecturing at unaccredited institutions are pseudo-intellectuals.
>>741450817>describe games that have the kinds of mechanics that SotN had.why is ironic because barely any metroidvanias actually have the leveling and rpg mechanics sotn brought to the table and are more often than not metroidlikes
If you think coyote time is bad, then you're a fucking moron who needs help eating cereal.
>>741450252It seems that way but that's the psychological impact in action. Really imagine playing both those segments. They're not actually different at all physically because if you miss a platform there, you're already fucked. It's the same both ways. Only actual difference is being able to move slightly while falling in the latter, which has no impact on whether you live.
>can stay stationary with forward foot off of edge without falling>if just your forward foot touches the edge of the next platform you fall throughcootie time is one of those things that just makes the game feel better. platformers/whatevervania style of game needs to feel good at at very the moving portion otherwise its extremely easy for it to feel really fucking bad. Its the same as an fps choosing to make the first couple of shots miss you and not send 30 laser beam headshots with straight your way to instagib you the second you turn a corner.
>>741450972Is RE4's aiming reticle sway bad game design?
>>741446398>>741449509>>741449894It's called "coyote time", because Wile is known for acting completely like he's on the ground, down to standing and making steps while not falling, before he realizes he's in air. Analogically, when the player tries to jump milliseconds after he left the edge, the game responds to it to account for his imperfect timing, because the player thought he was jumping while he was still on the ground. The player believes he is on the ground even though he isn't, just like the coyote. The name is concise and is a popculture reference everyone easily understands. In comparison, "cartoon logic" is completely opaque, ambiguous and could refer to so many things it's virtually worthless as a descriptor.
>>741451223They genuinely struggle to grasp exposition that isn't structured around thing good, thing badIf you made the same video but framed the points around panty censorship or something they'd sing its praises
>>741451223>>matthew makes a video that is essentially a game design 201 lectureYeah, that's what makes him a pseud. For the guy that made the whole intrinsic versus extrinsic video he sure doesn't understand extrinsic value of mechanics.
>>741451427>needs to feel good at at veryneeds to feel good at the very least at the moving portion* had a ministroke there fuck
>>741451552The whole point of the video is that aesthetic deception is required and adds extrinsic value to a game, but you need to do it in the right way.
>>741451335Yea, I was going to get into that but decided not to.But yea, most of the games that get the label these days incorporate nothing from SotN, they are basically Metroid alone (which would get them called Metroid-likes by some people).I think adventure platformer does a good job at covering both styles of games as it doesn't really rely on the inclusion or absence of certain mechanics but people don't use it enough for it to catch on in discussions.
The sheer amount of narcissistic SPERGS that melt down when a game DARES to use some kind of clever design technique to make it feel better need to accept they're just defective and overanalyzing toys for 4 year olds
>>741451223just because some rando jumps on a soapbox doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about
>>741451506I would say no. You still hit what is below the cursor. When I say walk across the screen, I don't mean sway. I was trying to male some exaggerated example where the cursor grows feet and leave a trail of foot prints and constantly changes shapes so what it is showing does not necessarily let you know what you are aiming at.
>>741451742humans overanalyzing mundane things is how you got a civilization to begin with.
>>741451783>video games rely on smoke and mirrors, it can be a good thing or a bad thingExplain how he is wrong.
>>741451742>overanalyzeNot a real thing. Everything on this earth has an incredible effort and thought behind them. The people who realize this rule the world, and the people who think things are simple are goy cattle for the former group.Everything is complex, and once you have an accurate model of that complexity, you can control and manipulate people.
>>741449985The problem is that, even though both Nintendo and PlayStation support gyroscope, Xbox controllers don't because Microsoft is composed of assholes who refused to update their APIs for the longest time to include modern features. I heard that might be changing, but right now you can't rely on gyroscope being available on every controller, and even the ones who work with MS' APIs might need to implement their own way of supporting gyro. It's a real fucking headache.(This is also why the Steam Controller likely uses its own APIs, partially because they fucking hate MS over there but also because of all the features it has are supported by GameInput yet.)
>>741446187Mario doesn't have it.
>>741446187Sonic doesn't have it either.
>>741448785Right. If a player wants to fully maximize their jump distance, they now need to be able to visualize the effective "real edge" of the platform, which exists invisibly in empty space, that coyote time creates.
>>741452038You are a retard.But you already knew I was going to call you that, correct? You think you manipulated me into giving you a (You) by posting something retarded? I've already out-analyzed you, awareness negates the implication of manipulation. I was simply acting out of my own free will.
>>741451742It's annoying doing the coyote time test in every new platformer I play, hmm.
>>741452038You should get an award for the biggest midwit post of '26
>>741452240Sonic Generations has coyote time, I'm sure the other 3D games do as well.
>>741452201Pretty sure Mario does have it.
>>741452272I'm clearly smarter than you, lol. You have to scream and shit yourself and call everyone you don't like a retard. You aren't as cool as you think you are, you're just fly over state cattle who will live and die a meaningless life.
i listed a few examples of design deception in games to gpt and asked it to expand on that and it gave me a more insightful essay than this stupid videoits over for humanlets
>>741452038The inflammatory posts only prove you right
>>741451343>people who don't want baby mode handicaps are the retards
>>741447168>Jump buffer zoneThat's too confusing since there is already a thing called a jump/input buffer. Which is sort of the opposite to a coyote jump.I.E a jump buffer allows you to press the jump button slightly before being grounded. While coyote jump allows you to jump slightly after being ungrounded.
>>741452612oh look, this guy needs help eating his cereal!
"Aesthetic deception" - you mean an illusion?I fucking hate sophistry.
>>741452612>The only reason a mechanic like this exists is because of FUCKING CASUALS Pro tip: You don't always need to breathe out of your mouth, you can also use your nose!
>>741446554He looked more distinct originally. Wider face, visible fangs, thicker haunches. But the more coyote and wolf shorts got made (the gags were so easy for Jones and Maltese to write quickly that they'd do a bunch to meet contractual obligations on shorts while taking their time on more ambitious stuff like What's Opera Doc), the more it made sense to homogenize the designs. Here's a YT grab from his first appearance, ignore the faun getup, it's related to a scheme.
>>741447168>>741447670Really should be "falling jump buffer" instead
>>741450492I too saw that Dangpa art where the dog facesits on the coyote. Call me jealous...
>>741452975Where's that graphic from?
Why is /v/ so anti-intellectual?
>>741453141spitballing ideas to gpt then asking it to ouput as a graphicthere's some bullshit in there but for something done in 2 minutes it's nice
>>741447670>people still bitch about "immersive sim" describing a particular design philsophy after all this time while nobody has come up with a better name, so whateverProbably because it's a forced meme perpetuated by boomers so nobody actually cares.Morrowind is still better than every imsim at being an imsim btw. Seethe.
>>741445378If the game was based, the buffer zone would give you a jump that goes further but doesn't have the same height as a normal jump. As if your character was pushing off the ledge.But I understand that keeping track of so many small mechanics like this just isn't worth the pay check anymore.
>>741452038just because something is complex doesnt mean its not simple. The jet engine is a complex piece of machinery that requires extreme precision and tolerances but in its simplest terms all it does is: suck, squeeze, bang, blow and the plane fucking flies. for most purposes, using complex machinery, or even repairing them you can go a really long time without ever learning what the buttons youre pushing actually do or what parts youre replacing actually affect down the line. I press the big green button, the motor starts, i press the big red one and it stops. Additionally if you arent able to explain something complex to someone who knows nothing about it in a simple and easy to understand way then you still dont know as much about it as you think you do. Someone could play a game that doesnt have coyote time and poorly spaced jumps and be 95% of the way to explaining it by just saying>it feels bad
>>741451084If there's a reason for it sure?
>>741447168Worst post I read this week.
>>741447168Solved game comes from board games and perfectly describes shit like Chess
>>741452975Lol
>>741452201>>741452240and I remember Mario always feeling off. Like you had to jump "too early" when compared to everything else I played.
>>741452975>adaptive difficultyI agree that this one is bullshit. If someone wants a hard game, don't gradually give them the hard game they've been wanting, they're stuck with a piss easy game until it suddenly reaches a point in the curve where it's actually hard all of a sudden. If someone sucks, don't gradually put more and more training wheels on the game without telling them, let them decide to either bash their head on the wall for an hour until they figure it out, or turn down the difficulty on their own.
>>741452991>>741452612What if I told you the real reason it exists is because it looks better?
>>741453560Chess isn't a solved game though. Maybe theoretically, but it hasn't been done yet. Tic tac toe and Connect 4 would be better examples.
>>741447168butthurt das2 fag sighted
>>741453634Mario Land is the worst in that regardIf you try to walk of the ledge without jumping you just plummet down at full speed
>>741451029If you wanna see what a psued extraordinaire looks like you should watch some videos from Joseph Anderson or NeverKnowsBest
>>741453339>>741452975These are shit (par for the course with AI). Infographics are passé.
>>741453056Game design and programming wise there's no real reason not to just use "coyote time" or "coyote jump". Everyone who needs to know already knows what it is, it makes crystal clear what it is so there is no way to get it confused with anything else.It might not be a great word, but at this point it's already been established, and anything else will probably just make it more confusing.
>>741452975is that jonathan blow?
>>741445378Coyote Time is good from what one would consider average or lower difficulty platforming challenges, but becomes shit when doing higher difficulty challenges as the deception which improves gamefeel now adds a layer of technical obfuscation to what should be a pure execution based challenge.
>>741453854How does it add obfuscation? Coyote time is always the same.
>>741447806>Looney Toons
>>741453772>Infographics are passé.and you are gae
>>741453772ok next meta is i'll ask gpt to turn it into a youtube script then pay a jeet 2 bucks to edit it together with a cute ai female voiceover
>>741449108You can literally design levels around the expected use of coyote time though. Aim assist is just the game getting played for you. I guess you could say you could design an FPS around the expected use of aim assist but in its current state that isn't really how it exists
I figured coyote time was going to be the big discussion (especially since the roll jump in dkc isn't an example but he used footage of it) coming out of this vid but imo the most interesting point he raised was that games are "born honest" and the deception gets added over time. Really made me think
>>741449807This was the first time I've seen this term and I instantly knew what it was about before even reading the explanation. I don't believe for a moment people here can't understand why it exists and why it's named that way.
>>741453929I bet 99% of boomers think it's toons as well
>>741453982I was playing armored core 6 recently, it has a dramatic version of that where aiming at something gives you a soft lock on, titanfall did that too with the smart pistol
>>741454058contrarianism
>>741454052what did you think about
>>741453919The edge of the platform is always the same too
>>741445378>I have no idea what I'm complaining aboutThe average gamer is a complete retard and lacks any sense of dexterity. There is a reason why Dark Souls is a success. If it required any skill, let's say, if you needed a tighter timing on the dodge roll or actual fingers to fight, it would be a niche franchise, at best.In case you're unable to grasp what I'm getting at, "Coyote Time Jump" is the same as the dodge roll with i-frames
>>741445378Variable coyote time in different platform games has never caused an issue for anyone ever in human history. Also doesn't the coyote time in Donkey Kong Country only exist when you roll off the platform?>>741445628It makes sense but it just sounds dumb when you say it.
>>741454107Is it really "aim assist" if it's literally the mech's targeting computer? That's like saying a spike pit or an open flame are "auto-attacking".
>>741453919Most people intuit based upon the generalization of what they see, something which in regards to Coyote Time means that the player rarely will understand that Coyote Time exists unless actively observing and instead will function off of the assumption that they are jumping off platforms while still on them.So when they reach a harder challenge their mental map of said challenge will not factor in CT even though the game designer now is designing for stricter execution.If your game requires one to "lab" out their actions instead of just teaching them actively or passively it produces unneeded friction.
>>741451417>which has no impact on whether you live.You can slide off the 3rd platform and duck with momentum, landing on the ground, skipping the fourth wider platform entirely in image 2.
>>741445628Dingo interval
If video games are "so simple" and any attempt to analyze what makes a game good is pseud, why does almost everyone who attempts to make even the most basic of video games (platformer) fuck it up? Why hasn't anyone here made a video game? It is allegedly simple, so why can't you do it? It would be easy money, right?
>>741448394Which game is that?
>>741454413You don't have to be a chef to critique food.
>>741454353Yeah, but the OP of the pic didn't know that.Ideally someone would make a better pic but I would argue that the point the image is making in good faith still stands.
>>741449758I prefer this.
>>741453919>How does it add obfuscation? Coyote time is always the same.Coyote time helps you on easy challenges since you might make a mistake, but during harder challenges they probably expect you to actively use coyote time. Since CT is not visual and the game doesn't help you at all to know what is the limit of your jumpable airtime, you have to rely on your "feeling" to do the jump properly as the game expects from you.Its the same as using aim assist to do bodyshots (easy) but fighting aim assist to do headshots (hard) since it'd be pulling your gun to the body and you'd have to compensate in a way that the game doesn't tell you how (obfuscated by the game)
>>741454413making a game is simple, polishing a game is hard
>>741445378Wile needs to be in games
>>741445378Hitstop is an aesthetic deception.Input queuing is an aesthetic deception.Hit/hurt/collision boxes are aesthetic deceptions.Any fall speed that isn't constrained by 9.8 m/s gravity factor is an aesthetic deception.Video games as a whole are aesthetic deceptions, actually. Just press the buttons, scrub what do you need visuals for?Actually even that is an aesthetic deception. Just generate the serotonin through willpower, faggot.
>>741454684Coyote time compensates for input lag. If it causes problems for difficult jumps then it's overly generous.
>>741454723or to put it more comprehensively, making a game is easy but making a good game is hard
>>741454802but every action you take has input lag, you have to mentally account for it regardless so I don't know why the edge of platforms are some sticking point
>>741454723So video games are complex, then.
>>741454648Not really, because the simpler mechanic example is you can walk off the double wide pillar, one block to the right, and just live. Where as in example 2 you would die. It's just faux intellectual bullshit.
>>741453748Can he out-instaplummet CV1 Belmont?
>>741454413Analysis is fine, but commentators on media platforms do so with the goal to make their phrases marketable. Those phrases will include elements that prime certain emotions for engagement e.g. the negatively connoted, arguably inflammatory, and therefore engaging phrase "aesthetic deception". Their contributions are poisoned from the start. I just assume everyone with a large social media following has knowingly or unknowingly tailored their communication habits for maximum marketability.
>>741446959based
>>741451223>a game design 201 lectureI took a few months of a game dev course (yes, I was stupid) and sadly Matt was smarter than any of my teachers. Granted, only half of my subjects involved something useful like coding and maths and the other half was irrelevant bullshit like "thinking about social issues and dilemmas" (paraphrase from the actual course page) or how to fetishize exotic cultures
>>741446959Now this is based.
Aesthetic DeceptionVERSUSMechanical Darwinism
>>741445628jump grace period
>>741447168Buffer already has a meaning, and it is not the meaning you are using. And it's not a zone either. Just stop it. You are not intelligent enough to be coming up with proper terms for this discussion, and by extension, any discussion.
>>741455115leave Grace and her periods out of this
>>741454876There is lag from: the controller, the display, the game itself, your own reaction time and your own mental processing time.Coyote time is necessary leniency, the amount of delay added between all of those variables is wildly different between setups and people. If the developer wants to start factoring it in that's their problem, not the mechanic. Utilizing the mechanic in an intentional way is a misunderstanding of the mechanics purpose.
Most people do not set their TVs to Game Mode, the additional input lag will cause them to fall into pits. Coyote time covers that. Devs should not design stages with the extended jump area in mind. When everyone is using the same Trump TV we won't need this anymore. So in a few years Coyote Time will be an outdated design choice
>>741454802It is used for its compensation purposes but it is also an actual mechanical effect for the gameplay and if a developer wants to push the challenge of their game and uses the idea of taking Coyote Time into account as an active part of the required way to complete the challenge then it becomes an issue because CT by its nature is meant to be under the radar.
>>741455286>the same trump tvYou vill get ze trump phone in the pod and vill own nothing, however. You can watch people play games on it or play mobileshit, but that's it.
>>741455115Too generic.
>>741455437but it actually portrays the phenomenon accurately unlike coyote time
Let me tell you something for free:99% of the autists jumping at the chance to out-pseud Matt would be applauding the exact same script coming from some nobody tranny youtuber with 12 subs.
>>741455509Yes but which phenomenon? Is it a grace period based on hitting jump to early or to late?
>>741455668I don't watch "youtubers" and have no idea if this matt guy is supporting or decrying coyote time.But anyone saying it's a bad concept is fucking brain dead.
>>741455712It's the period when you can still jump despite the visuals telling otherwise. The game is essentially giving you a finite time window when you can still salvage yourself from the situation by pressing jump, thus a jump grace period. Even without context you can narrow it down to a few possibilities. Coyote time tells you nothing as it relies on a ex-video games concept.
>>741445628>Ludonarrative disonance>"Nooooooo it sounds pretentious too many syllables!">Coyote time>"Nooooooo it sounds silly and I don't get the reference!"I'm pretty sure you fags just want to bitch about learning new terms at this point
>>741455668no doubt about it
you can delay the gravity so your character doesn't fall like that just walks a bit in the air instead.I'll keep using it.
>>741454353What the fuck do you think "essentially" means here? It's not as if to mean identical in mechanics. But the basic, essential idea in its level design is the same. Do you have autism? It's okay if you do.
>>741455845The entire vide is just "here are some game design concepts, they can be used in good or bad ways"
>>741451742These people would rather watch a 20 hour youtube celebs video breakdown of a 10 hours game than play the game and form their own opinions. Everything they say is worthless.
>>741456101oh, it figures then someone would take the chance to set up a nonsense argument like this thread. OP was the faggot all along!
>>741448331He doesn't treat it as an inherently bad thing.
>>741455845Giving the player a handicap is a bad thing, yes.
>>741445543but you haven't even subbed to me yet anon.
>>741456397oh look, this retard has trouble eating soup. Every neuron in your skull is an unfortunate misfire.
>>741456101and yet people are furious anyway.>>741455668sad aspies hate the thought of anyone in the room sounding like a bigger pseud than them when it comes to videogames, and lash out accordingly whenever matt is brought up. I think its because they dont know anything about anything beyond their worthless videogame takes.
>>741453376>Morrowind is still better than every imsim at being an imsim btwl o l none of Bethesda's games are imsims.>b-butNo.
>>741456454The one needing the game to help them is the kind of person that would have trouble holding a spoon.
>>741456530sounds like syrup is more your speed.
>>741445378Why do games need it though? Seems pretty superfluous.
>>741455946>I don't get the reference!I don't think mediums should do references to other unrelated mediums.
>>741455862Yeah but if you want to implement both an early and late grace period like a lot of games do, you need a distinct name. Might as well use the only everyone is already familiar with.>Coyote time tells you nothing as it relies on a ex-video games concept.That goes for a lot of names in game design or software development. But to change it now would just cause more confusion. You think A* is a good name of a pathfinding algorithm?
>>741455668Rename this video>the mysterious vibe of the early 2000s fakejumpand use a troon avatarInstant hit.
>>741455668I just want the conversation to lead to a "eureka" moment in some readers, helping them realize that they should be more critical of the words and phrases they use, consider where they come from, and to dispose of them if they originate from YouTube video-essay peddlers.
I spaced out midway and had no fucking clue what coyote jump meant for the remainder of the video. Only OPs pic explained it to me. Great term. Never watched ancient yank cartoons as a kid.
Its a good video, I agree with all his points. But it kind of feels like he's just repeating stuff he's talked about in previous videos. The subject is actually pretty covered territory with invisible walls, hitboxes, i-frames, yellow paint; AAA games being visually dense but mechanically basic is a very common complaint. But I guess he wanted to to unify all these things under an umbrella term?
>>741455668You're not entirely wrong but the main reason they are seething is because he's "attacking" Nier Automata which, for some reason, (((they))) consider one of (((their))) games. So if you're mentioning it in a video, it better be 3 hours of endless praise about its genius, its oh so important themes, and most importantly: what it means to you as a trans woman.Nobody is mad because he talked about coyote jumps or disappearing cars in cyberpunk, they're angry because they think he's calling Nier Automata shit. Because they're stupid.Or they are the usual DS2 crowd who have been malding for over a decade and still not over it.
>>741456637Because otherwise players will call your game shit. Even if it is the players fault, they FELT like they hit the button at the right time, so to them it comes of as the game being buggy or not listening to their input. It basically just makes your controls feel more tight.
>>741445628Worst post in the thread, somehow
>>741456974As a professional shitposter I have some bad news for you. That never works.
>>741456974>and to dispose of them if they originate from YouTube video-essay peddlers.Why? Out of jealousy?
>>741445628>>741447670Coyote chasing roadrunner, at the cliff!
>>741454413>>741454878knowing generally what makes a game feel good and how to implement/design around all of the elements you want to include in a fluid and coherent way are two separate things. The average AAA sloppa gamer probably wont be able to tell you a single thing about games but they will be able to tell you when something feels bad, off, needs unrealistically high requirements, or if a mechanic is buggy and doesnt work as it should.If your game has exp/stats and the first boss is a dps check that you need to completely halt the game and grind for 5 hours before you can realistically beat it because there are no significant upgrades before then i can look at that very plainly and say that it was a horrific decision and needed figured out better or if i put an infinite fuel jetpack on stage 1 that carries over for the rest of the game and a grappling hook on level 4 that uses the same slot and is only a downgrade in every metric it would just feel bizzare and it would be picked up on.You plan around what you want to do and what makes sense and is realistic. Forza doesnt have a dedicated jump button because it doesnt need it much like castlevania doesnt have a spedometer and how slay the spire doesnt have a grappling hook. Nothing about it should be exceedingly difficult or complex to do if youre able to do your job and develop games and know how to manage scope creep.
>>741457220I'm sure you love the phrase "asset flip", Mx. Sterling.
>>741446959already describes an entire different mechanic desu
>>741456974Colloquialism is more important than whatever shit you're hung up on.
>>741457373You should "unalive" yourself.
>play megaman>jump at the edge of the platform>time it so that I don't fall offcrazyI don't know where this idea that you NEED coyote time because input delay etc etc came from all of a sudden, most games don't have it but you'd swear its the norm from how instrumental some posters imply it is
>>741457449If Mega Man doesn't have it then yeah fuck the mechanic.
>>74145744990% of platformers have it. It's ubiquitous.
>>741445378>>741445543Matthewmatosis says Coyote Time is aesthetic deception, yet he didn't say anything about 3D games that use invincibility frames for dodging, where enemy attacks can touch the player the player won't get hurt. Curious...
>>741457629i-frame dodges are compensation for 3D positioning being a crapshoot. It's no different than coyote time compensating for input lag.
>>741457565big if true
>>741457629he also didn't mention the jewhomo world order.... CURIOUS!!
>>741457537it doesn't but megamans stance is extra wide and so the area he covers before you actually falls off provides the same benefit.pretty sure everything after the classic games has it as well.>>741457449most games have it, or other design choices in place around making the player feel better essentially.You'll notice that mega man 1 has an issue that makes movement at ledges weird in how you super plummet, but future installments fix that and jumping feels better.
>>741457629>yet he didn't say anything about 3D games that use invincibility frames for dodging, where enemy attacks can touch the player the player won't get hurt. Curious...iirc he's talked about them before, basically he doesn't like them and in an ideal world they shouldn't exist, but he also realizes that designing 3D action games without them is practically impossible
>>741454413>Why hasn't anyone here made a video gamei literally said earlier in the thread i made a platformer m8.
>>741457629Those are also aesthetic deception yes. Your point?
>>741457629Matt is showing mercy to DS babbies
you can't prove it exists in any game btw, "eceleb said so" isn't a proof
>>741457913what about footage in the e-celeb's video?
>matt thread>some actual game design discussionI'm nooticing
>>741457629You also dodge attacks in beat em ups via i-frame throws.
>>741449127I've seen the coyote time/coyote jump term in lies of P speedrunning for a while now. A fucking soulslike. It's not a new term
>>741456883lmao too real
>>741453817>dude, moving to something better might cause a tiny bit of headache, so just be gay for all timeYou are LEGITIMATELY brown
>>741458289language is Darwinian
>>741455668>>741456507True
The retard is wrong by saying coyote time is a mechanic, it's a bug fix. When designing levels and checking you can clear jumps, you as the developer turn it off. It never accounts for your total jump distance. Afterwards you turn it on so that when the player's input is entered you have 0.1 seconds of extra time to account for the controller being a lazy spic.It's not a mechanic to think about.
>>741445628>Wily Coyote TimeTo make it extra clear, but other than that, pretty good name.
>>741458802>Wily CoyoteI meant Wile E. CoyoteFUCK
>>741454062>muhllenials dont know about my merry melodies
>>741458751Nope. Platformers like Celeste rely on abusing it to clear levels.
Matt used to make videos about specific games and his opinions on them and usually the scripts were fairly well-organized and entertaining. Then once he made the Lost Soul Art of Demon Souls video he started getting really up his own ass, forgot how to write scripts, and his output slowed to a crawl. So now every three years he shits out a bunch of random bad takes he tries to fit under a vague theme.I usually end up being annoyed rather than entertained which is a shame to say about someone who pioneered this style of video. Maybe he's being deliberately contrarian because his old style is so common now, but I don't like it.
>>741458751Why would you want to balance around a different version of the game? You realize that you'd have to test the coyote time version anyways so that players don't have access to places they shouldn't be able to get to, right?
>>741445378>coyote timegta6 npc tier
>>741445993Kek
>>741457126You are correct
There have been very few games that ive played that i can remember where that being able to jump at any time in the fall wouldnt just increase the skill ceiling. If a game has double jump but will punish you for falling below the coyote barrier without jumping it not only feels like shit where the game isnt playing by its own rules but it just seems like a waste of potential for alt paths/secrets/upgrades/etc.
>>741459203rip fucked up the picture
>>741445378there is nothing wrong with coyote time, it makes a 2D platformer better and less frustrating. If your 2D platformer doesn't have coyote time, it's trash
>>741445628gayest post on this entire website
>>741459203yeah I can agree with you there if the game has double jump, especially when games actually make use of the unique movement that kind of double jump can give
>>741459314Sonic 3 & Knuckles doesn’t have coyote time and it’s the best 2D platformer ever.
>>741459314damn every i was just about it list some of the most popular games without coyote time but you'd just call them all trash post hoc anyways so what's the point
If a game is cheating in my favor, it should at least tell me that with an animation separating Cayote jumps from real jumps.
>>741455668someone wearing nailpolish will make the exact same video but about sonic 2006 and their circlejerk will pretend its blown their minds
>>741459490I'm stealing this and it'll make me rich
Coyote time is the screenshake of the platforming genre. i.e., every armchair designer pushes it like drugs.
>>741459586>disable screen shake>disable motion blur>disable rumbleyep, it's game time
>>741459532You could make it work by having the jump look more like a kick off of the side part of the ledge, or you could have the character stumbling/straining to make the jump to show how close it was. Another option would be to make that timing the sweet spot, rewarding the player for aiming for it with a flip and extra jump height or something.
>>741459690working standard or common mechanics into unique animations is always pretty cool.
>>741447168edge leniency
>>741448259I hate all these faggots who only ever talk about>omg he's back!>finally he's returned>it's been 3000 years>and when we needed him the most, he returnedIt's so fucking grating, every single fucking video is just filled with these retardsYou click on a video from fucking 7 years ago and it's all "he's back, he's here, he's returned with the milk and cigs" and NO discussion of the actual video
>>741459314>SMW, SMB3, Sonic 1 2 3 and CD, are trashlmao people will just say shit to get (You)s, have your (You).
>>741448764Aim assist is GOOD in single player games, but BAD in multiplayer
>coyote jumps propel you further with more horizontal momentum because you kick the ledge>actual jumps propel you higher with more vertical momentumI fixed it.
>>741448934Invisible Walls suck, Coyote Time exists, grass is ""mostly"" useless, video games aren't real*sucks off BoTW for the millionth time*
>>741459095>Why would you want to balance around a different version of the game?Because, retard, that .1 seconds is solely for input latency.
>>741449474It's literally just called "Affordances" which is a term that's been used in vidya for like 20 years now, but Mr. Youtuber man just needs to make up a new term for shit that already exists
>>741459394>>74145930510 million hours in paint for the most basic idea. >only single jump with no timer. Free to jump at any point that you wish>easier to create higher risk higher reward areas to get to that only punish your own ability and judgement>can add an even safer options above that dont require the same level of precision>double jump only expands on it possibilities. i know im not really saying anything new but what i dislike about the timer is the fact that you cant jump at any time rather than it being there. If youve ever played a game without it and one that had bad edges on platforms, its fucking horrific.
>>741445628Didn't beat the game
>>741460447You as the developer also have input lag. Adding more time for the player to jump increases the distance they can go. You are not nearly as smart as you think you are.
>>741460550I don't think the timer should be used in games with double jumps, and It more helps in certain games without them. So I agree strongly in the concept you're putting on paper here with your mspaint research paper, but I don't think coyote time itself is bad for other situations.
>>741460468I hadn't heard of this word until today - nice contribution.
>>741450383this is actually funny
>>741445628Edge/drift jump
>>741445378>watch video>doesn't really raise any interesting points, just seems to be a weird tangentok
This discussion is retard on multiple levels, you must be bots. The player is not supposed to notice Coyote Time. Coyote Time doesn't need to be renamed to make it clearer for players, because they're not supposed to think about it. It has nothing to do with controller input lag. Its not there to extend jump distance. Unless you're playing some sort of ragdoll sim, the player body that interacts with the world is not shaped like the player character model, but exist as simply geometric shape. You're most likely playing as sphere or pill with round bottom. Any game where when you slowly move towards an edge and "slip off", likely means you're playing with round bottom. Coyote Time exist to make that "slip off" moment fair. Its called Coyote Time, because you're usually limited from jumping when in air, so theres a check to see if player had been on ground, but became airborne without jumping or other means that would make them airborne, so it gives you short timer to jump while in air. Coyote Time is even more necessary for games with double jump, as jumping on edge would be a 50/50 if that was your grounded 1st jump or in-air 2nd jump.
>>741445628terra-aerial dissonance
>>741450559Deal with the banter, egghead.
>>741460468I mean, it’s nice to see a discussion about game mechanics on /v/ rather than endless culture war drivel. It’s interesting to learn about.
>>741462440Getting cucked out of your double jump and falling to your death because you figured you were going to have your first normal jump is bullshit. So yeah I agree that a game should make use of the buffer to some degree.
>>741445378Never heard of this mechanic before. Which games implement it?
>>741456715>UnrelatedAnimation is eternally tied to animation. Can photographers not talk about composition and the golden ratio because those were coined by painters?
>>741462626Pretty much all platformers, and it's not really a mechanic since you're not supposed to notice it or actively use it, it's more like a basic part of your movement feel
>>741460468>New term"Coyote Time" is an old-ass termnot as old as like "Gradius Syndrome", but pretty damn old still
>>741462440Are you trolling or just a massive midwit? Almost every major 2D platformer uses rectangles for collision, you'd be crazy not to. There's no "slip off" due to a round bottom unless you're playing a student's first janky Unity game.
>>741452201Mario has worse things like teleporting hitboxes
>>741462440Kirby and the forgotten land has another function thats similar to Coyote Time and should be unique to that game. When Kirby is in-air and about to land or close to the ground, if the player hits jump, instead of having Kirby do his air jump, Kirby is teleported to the ground and performs a ground jump. Its there to make chain-jumping feel easy and good.
>>741460629No shit, but any good dev knows not to account for it when designing levels.
>>741463085Alright, you're on a spectrum. Fromsoft's games are probably the most known and obvious for /v/ to recognize "slip off". You get these moments where you try to balance on something, but the character moves both down and gets pushed away from the edge, as the platforms sharp collision edge skirts on the player's sphere shaped collision.
>>741445378I just think it feels better without it
>>741463602Oh well now that you mention it, Dark Souls is really just Super Mario Brothers but with swords, you're right.Retard.
>>741453938Just in case someone is naive enough to try this and doesn't know: this will kill you. Don't do it.
>>741445378honestly i'm glad he said it because too many developers get led into this, and i won't pretend i'm not one of them. it just doesn't make sense for the reasons he describes in the video, but it's easy to mindlessly buy in to established truisms and doctrine
>>741463602I wouldn't call Dark Souls a 2D platformer but you do you.
>>741463602Not OP but this is clearly bait.
>>741463602Moron, this thread is clearly about 2D platformers and you're bringing up Fromsoft. Maybe the reason you don't understand this discussion is because you only play Soulslikes.
>>741449127People have been using the term Coyote Time for almost a decade.In Apex Legends.
>>741464167Embolism is short for "e(nhanced) m(eta)bolism".
When are we getting the REAL Coyote time experience?
>>741445378"Deception" is an attempt to mislead. A mechanic like this is just a mercy on players with bad reaction times. What a stupid premise.
this video felt like autism, much more so than his others
>>741464445Giving players freebies is bad design
>>741464269I'm not that guy, but I would have expected this mechanic to be just as useful in 3D games if not more so.
>>741464504Why? Game design should smooth over rough patches that lead to negative experiences or players overwhelmingly thinking the game is "unfair." Small mercies are granted to players constantly that they don't extend to NPC's in that same game, because your experience is king. Not "playing by a rigid set of unflinching rules."
>people love talking about game mechanics>but no one takes ludology, the study of game mechanics, seriously and never brings it upwhy is this
Coyote time is the platformer gameplay equivalent of screenshake. It's a crutch.
>>741446826>But I'm sure you know better than me.probably, you seem pretty blinded with your head up your own ass about your "baby".
>>741464752Mostly because the guys who bring that up are usually from university scam degrees.
>>741464445If you want to design around bad players why not make the level design itself easier without making a mechanic that sometimes lets you jump in the air and sometimes it doesn't? Since you, as a player, don't really know when that timer runs out.Like instead of having coyote time, extend the ledge.
>>741464529It depends, 3D games have camera controls or are in first person which makes it easier to feel where you are. Also, 3D platformers generally do not rely on precision platforming as much as 2D games.
>>741465113>3D games have camera controls or are in first person which makes it easier to feel where you areI would disagree that it makes it easier to know where you are. You can't always get the camera just right and your character will partially obscure where you are going if you are looking from behind. I'd say 2D is a lot more clear and easy to make a good judgment of how much more room you have before going over an edge.>Also, 3D platformers generally do not rely on precision platforming as much as 2D games.This however does make a lot of sense. For some reason my mind just went straight to Crash 1 which has really tight jumps although I don't actually know if it uses the mechanic. It is just one where it would be really helpful. The other anons comment about capsules and slipping off also reminded me of the complaints about the Crash remake.
>>741464752too ludo
