Zelda dungeons aren't fun
>>741591636He's saying MAKING them isn't fun. He's looking forward to it this time since the hard work (creating them) is already done - they just need to HD-ify them, so it won't be hard work for them this time.
>>741592074kinda gay to just get the same outdated block pushing puzzles from 98 with a new coat of paint. i was expecting more.
>>741591636>Plays Arbiter's GroundsSeems fun to me.
Yeah running back and forward in a shitty dungeon solving kiddy puzzles was never fun
>>741592297with any luck, it will be a colossal failure and nintendo will finally learn from their mistakes...or it'll be awesome, proving that they finally learned from their mistakes. im hoping for the former
>>741592849I'm hoping everyone gets cancer.
>>741592074The "I'm" in the headline is referring to the author of the article, not Miyamoto.
>>741592849>hopefully the game will be bad ???????????
>>741593363yes, I have remake fatigueAlso, I hate nintendo because they have contempt for their own fans and customers. if it's just a reskin, i'll be skipping the whole gen.if it's a reimaging and looks good, I will pay the $600 to play it.
i will buy it no matter the cost
>>741591636He's right. The sales speak for themselves.
>>741593989looking forward to legend of fortnight: roblox edition and anyone who dislikes it has always hated zelda
>>741591636yeah roll spamming through hyrule field is much better than pushing blocks and hitting a switch to open a door
>>741593989 skyward sword really gimped itself with motion plus holy fuck, I only eventually played it on the switch because I never could justify the cost of buying a motion plus controller for one game
>>741593989Ah yes, because Breath of the Wild puzzles are so much more interesting and invigorating than older ones by virtue of the same five tools used for Source Engine level physics gimmicks constantly.
>>741592074Ganon's Castle was kinda ass, in fact, final dungeons in Zelda tend to suck, hope they massively revamp it. The final dungeon should be the hardest, not a cakewalk.
>>741591636I've only enjoyed dungeons playing Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. Wind Waker was fine too.
>>741591636The triforce comes to those who have a high level of triforceclorians in the bloodGanondorf will shoot firstTingle will follow you in the whole game
>>741595770>Breath of the Wild puzzles are so much more interestingThe more complex puzzles are though. Especially puzzles with multiple solutions that aren't immediately obvious.
>>741591636same game new skin. what's the fucking point. I was caught up in the hype right after the announcement because I assumed they had said something to suggest it would be some kind of rework, but once I found that wasn't the case, my enthusiasm plummeted. I've probably discussed this with 100 people between 4chan and yt comments and not one has had anything to say besides "huh? of course it's going to be a new game"
>>741592074He's saying that dungeons in 3D Zelda are dreadfully boring to PLAY. But he's intrigued to see how they've been handled in the remake.
>>741593726I have Oot clone fatigue, we had just escaped them for ten years! going back is kinda suck.
>>741593989Is BOTW really that good?Still haven't played it.
>>741595770>Breath of the Wild puzzles are so much more interesting and invigorating than older onesYes, yes you retard, yes.
>>741596342You can't ship it with the same puzzles as the original, so from that standpoint at the *very least* it's going to be new or fresh.
>>741596453no its a boring world with NOTHING but the same 5 monsters. The game is impossible without guides its the hardest shittiest game I've ever played. 90% of the game is walking and listening to shit off-key music. every enemy one shots you.
>>741596450OoT clones were never real. Blaming OoT for the flaws of WW, TP, and SS is just Aonuma's way to protect his own ego.
>>741596673ah, so it's the dark souls of zelda games for people who never liked zelda
>>741596604As far as nintendo is concerned, nobody has played OoT since 2011. This is the same game with a fresh coat of paint for gen A.
>>741596695That reads like pure copium. You let your hand slip when you admitted you don't like them very much.
>>741596453No, the other anon is half right but it doesn't get to the point of instantly killing you unless you play a long time. There's numeric enemy scaling where the game's extremely limited cast of enemies has differently colored variants with more HP and damage that appear as you complete more stuff. But it is empty and there's too few enemies.
>>741593989Zelda... is in decline...
>>741596782What are you talking about? What does my post have to do with what you've said?
>>741596794Go woke go broke !
>>741591636I say more : Zelda games aren't fun
>>741591636he's right, this MUH DUNGEONS thing is some youtuber virtue signalling bubble
>>741593046Can't believe only 1 person realised this. It's a really shitty headline, but i can't see how someone would think otherwise still
>>741596453It's a good blueprint. Play it once.TotK's enjoyment depends on if you liked BotW or not and there are things you need to experience in BotW to really grasp in TotK, so definitely play BotW first. TotK is optional.
I've been playing the Oracle games and I think dungeons with clever item usage and key locations are alot of fun. Nintendo doesn't like classic dungeons because they probably have the data that they end up filtering the playerbase. They can't do something more complex than Totk's waypoint dungeons without losing the average player.
>>741596453>Is BOTW really that good?You think sales are an indication of quality? Are you some kinda 67 IQ cattle?
>>741598116It must pop, I am sick of hearing about lock and key design, it's time for bigger games and better puzzles.
>>741596453No, BOTW is absolute shit.>>741598524This anon is wrong. TOTK is a monumental improvement over breath of the reddit because the vehicles sidestep the retarded weapons shattering mechanic and climbing and fast travelling are no longer inherent game mechanics.
>>741598821ha ha 67
>>741596794Want to show the rest of the picture too?
>>741596453On the context of "game that is fun if you play it for only half hour", yes.It did successfully captured what normies like about GTA.Not many games can claim that, and the ones that do sell a fuckload.
>>741598941That's the joke, anon.
>>741598910And better puzzles starts with puzzles you can't always be sure you have all the tools for the moment you see them. So BotW format is dead.
>>741599267Yeah, i realized how retarded my post was a bit too late to go back
>>741598917>breath of the redditFunny how BotW was perfection and now it's shit. You're setting up that anon for a bad experience.
>>741599278That's retarded, has nothing to do with puzzle solving at all. You don't go into a jigsaw without having all the fucking pieces. Putting a block into a square hole is not a puzzle.
>>741599578BOTW was shit in 2017, anon.
>>741591636They're more consistently fun than Zelda overworlds and by no small margin.
>>741599859Really? This is news to me. Everyone I see said BotW was fantastic and everyone who criticized it made sure to raise holy hell about it. Criticism =/= game is shit for the record.
>>741596453If complex, yet smoothly functioning environmental interactions and physics engines are your fetish then it's a masterpiece. I'm still waiting for the game where they actually do something worth caring about with that shit, but to each their own.
>>741591636theyre fun in moderation. which is why majora is the best game
>>741595964Needs a Tingle mode where he gets Zapped into Link's house, replacing him, and you make money and cause mayhem
>>741600028Climbing with the green wheel was shit from the start.Shattering weapons was shit from the start.Divine beasts were shit from the start.Zelda's voice actress has been shit from the start.
>>741600028>I base my worldview on /v/ shitposting and journalist shillingfriendless behavior
You can thank this retard for fucking up the second most popular franchise or we might never have gotten Souls.
>>741595778I dunno about the other zelda games but ganons castle in oot was one of the first things made for the game I'm pretty sure.
>>741600028Shocker, impressions for games change over time. It also didn't help that TotK was such a massive rehash of BotW that it amplified many of its flaws.
>>741592849They would have to actively try to make the game much, much worse for it to not sell extremely well. Millenials are parents now. An ocarina of time remake is the ultimate slam dunk to sell both to nostalgic millenials and to them as parents since they already know their kids will probably like it.
>i will do EVERYTHING in my power to make sure you do not buy the remakeDamn shiggy trying as hard as he can to save me 70 freedom dollars
>>741600145The longest dungeon of any classic Zelda can't take more than an hour. They were pretty darn good at moderating player time in spaces. They hardly make gauntlets or insane challenges. Players can barely eek out a real challenge in these games by deliberately avoiding all heart containers.
>>741596453No, but it's a decent time. TotK is a letdown though.
>>741600550>amplifiedYou mean fixed.
"Puzzles" and gimmicks ruined dungeonsThe first Zeldas did it rightJust kill monsters, open doors, collect weapons, defeat the boss, done
>>741596453I liked it. I did not like TotK at all and also Totk is so fucking ugly to me even though they're the same game. I don't know what it was but it seemed like the draw distance was even worse and the piss filter was more pronounced. Maybe I was just in a bad mood.
>>741591636Miyamoto is basically a movie director nowadays.I'm surprised he hasn't left Nintendo for Sony, but I guess the relationship between Nintendo and Universal is good enough.
>>741600215I actually agree with all of those statements.Too bad the majority didn't and wants to continue shit like that.>>741600550>Shocker, impressions for games change over time.Yet if I say that Ocarina of Time is better than BotW, I'll get attacked. If I say I want traditional dungeons to return and the open world done away with, I get attacked.
>>741600956because as everyone knows, 2d zeldas didn't have dungeonskill yourself clueless npc
>>741599784If there's supposed to be variability in how you play, then you shouldn't be sure when you get stuck if you're looking at a puzzle you just can't crack or one you don't yet meet the prerequisites for. Because there should be the possibility of items out there on other routes that you don't yet have.>but why would that one item be needed here? all actual puzzles should be solvable with the toolkit you're given in the tutorial!!!No.
>>741599859
>>741600907>dungeons are still playgrounds that revolve around activating 4/5 doohickeys (but they don't even have the Divine Beasts' one unique hook of large-scale structure manipulation)>didn't fix weapon degradation (they made most weapons weaker and flimsier, including the Master Sword, just to push the fusing mechanic)>still not having more than 5 dungeons despite a massive world>still has annoying tedious overworld combat that's often worth skipping>still has an overworld full of large swathes of fucking nothing (but worse because there's also a sky world and the Depths now)>still forces you to do the tutorial despite being a sandbox nonlinear game (but made worse because you also have to walk and talk with Zelda and watch an uncharacteristically unskippable cutscene)>still able to easily cheese the game with meals that can be made with trivially simple to find ingredients>still makes most of the story hidden behind flashbacks (but worse because spread out a strictly linear story across flashbacks you can and likely will easily find out of order, they should've at least made it so that each Tear plays the next flashback in the intended sequence regardless of which Tear you found)>wet climbing wasn't fixed, sticky gear/meals are a borderline scam with how marginal their improvements areabsolutely not
>>741601653>it's the best Zelda because 25 million non-Zelda fans coming in from Playstation and Xbox liked it
>>741600648Tell that to the fire sanctuary, it's like an hour and a half long dungeon, it's so long that there's pit stop to play a minigame in the middle of it lol.
>>741601745>if I pretend there's not 25 million avid enjoyers then I can pretend me and three others are the authority on the series(35 million now, cope)
>>741596342Huh? Of course it's going to be the same game.Every remake is literal trash that ruins the original and doesn't understand what made the original great, why the fuck would anyone want that, you stupid drooling retard?
>>741601312>one you don't yet meet the prerequisites foris the dumbest and worst aspect for any game, just straight up being barred from solving a puzzle even if you know the solution
>>741601843There is literally evidently not 25 million avid enjoyers. There's a bunch of people who showed no interest in any prior Zelda that bought BotW. That's what the sales numbers mean.
>>741591636Remakes aren't good
Zeldafags are autistic
>>741591636I swear Nintendo is run by tasteless retards
>>741601898But that's the thing, if it's an item you don't have yet, how do you know what the solution is supposed to be?Is it perhaps because the way you picture an item being needed that you don't have is overly flat?A big gap you can't yet cross might be a sign you could be missing anything from Pegasus boots to a glider to a grappling hook of some sort.
>>741601653Game journalists are faggots.Literally. They are all homosexuals and transsexuals.
>>741595770>because Breath of the Wild puzzles are so much more interesting and invigorating than older onesYes, they were.
>>741598821>You think sales are an indication of quality?People buy things that are good.
>>741602276The fuck they do.
>>741601681>didn't fix weapon degradationFixed by the mounted vehicle weapons>overworld full of large swathes of fucking nothing Yes, because Ganondorf destroyed the country when he levitated hyrule castle.>still able to easily cheese the game Good.>wet climbing wasn't fixedClimbing was shit from the beginning, and was replaced by vehicles and by Ascent.
>>741600556>They would have to actively try to make the game much, much worseanon, this IS ninttendo we're talking about.
>>741596453It's a fine novelty for a few hours but if you're expecting a real Zelda game, or even a game that properly utilizes its own mechanics, you'll be disappointed.If you can emulate it you might as well give it a shot. Definitely don't pay full price for it lol.
>>741602198case in point, article is talking about a '99 interview after they decided to try and push zelda from it's pure dungeoncore experience in OOT
>>741602276>People buy things that are goodAre you really so retarded that you actually made that statement?
>>741592805>what if we made a game with lots of little dungeons with shitty puzzleslolLMAO
/v/ is retardedthey're in an impenetrable state of bliss over hwo moronic they are
BotWfags saw how much contempt Dark Souls 2 fags have for the rest of their game's series and decided they had to one-up them
>>741602383>impenetrable state of blissI would say it's more of a blind anger.
>>741591636I guess my childhood wasn't fun then because that's all I remember
>>741596453I played just far enough to access the "hardcore" island, completed that, and realized that there was literally nothing more the game had to offer. Never touched it again.
The ideal OoT remake would be an evolution of the pre-BotW 3D Zeldas while dumping their baggage (linearity/handholding). While there's a lot to like about OoT's dungeons, there's definitely a lot of room for improvement in the current year. Same with the combat. Whether Nintendo is capable of genuinely improving on the formula is an open question, but based on the last decade it's not promising.My guess is the game will play very similarly to the original but it will change just enough to feel off and anger purists, like the previous Zelda remakes. God forbid they turn it into BotW but they tend to play it pretty safe with their remakes.
>>741592074>>741596367The writer just dug up an interview with Miyamoto from 1999 and wrote an article about it, since the remake is on the way. No one from Nintendo has talked about the remake yet, otherwise this would be much bigger news.https://www.gamesradar.com/games/the-legend-of-zelda/shigeru-miyamoto-decided-zelda-dungeons-arent-really-that-much-fun-while-making-ocarina-of-time-but-theyre-what-im-looking-forward-to-in-the-remake/
>>741591636explains why breath of the zoomer was so popular
>>741591636Trvke
>>741602963Lots of people bought it
Kinda sucks that Miyamoto's opinion on Zelda is given more weight than Tezuka's when Tezuka had way more of an impact on the franchise's early identity. He has a fairly meek personality so hasn't really spoken up for himself. Let's not even talk about that fraud Aonuma who wormed his way into the franchise because of yazuka connections.
>>741602674There is no room for improvement aside graphically. OOT is the perfect video game and I say that 100% genuinely.
OOT was always for babies
>>741603125A lot of the puzzles are just pushing blocks or shooting eyes because the 3D camera was still a novelty back then, could absolutely have better puzzles nowadays.Combat is very simple and easy.Bosses are very simple and easy.Ganon's Tower is a lame final dungeon.Item switching/menuing could be a lot smoother (albeit nu-Zelda is terrible at this).Hyrule Field is borderline empty and is just an excuse to use Epona as a glorified sprint button.Still better than BotW/TotK because it's not Ubisoft-style open world slop but there's plenty of room for improvement.
This is from an interview from 27 years ago. Miyamoto wasn't saying "dungeons are boring." That was more of the article writer's interpretation. It just isn't a dungeon marathon like the original and Link to the Past, and he's focused on the maze-like aspect, using Forest Temple and Gerudo Fortress as examples. Overall Miyamoto thinks they didn't spend as much time on dungeons for Oot, even though it's still a dungeon rich game. If they thought dungeons were bad, they wouldn't have spent the next nearly 20 years making dungeon focused Zelda games until botw came along.
I have a theory that when paintings were originally going to be the main mode of transportation to other areas of Hyrule, it was meant inside Zelda's Castle and Ganon's Castle. Something akin to SM64.
>>741596453Depends what you're looking for. If you're the kind of faggot who thinks a bigger world is automatically better, having complete freedom to do everything out of order with no sense of progression is good design to you, and you like sandbox shit, then yeah it's right up your alley.
>>741603125your opinion is genuinely dogshit so it doesn't really matter
He's correct, but he also has to realize that if thats the case, the entire game is not fun. because the overworld and pre dungeon quests certainly are not anymore well designed
>>741598524>so definitely play BotW first. TotK is optional.Although I think botw is more cohesive, I don't think that's necessarily good advice. Totk is mainly botw but more. If you play botw there's a good chance you'll be really disappointed it's the same shit all over again with more content and a new barebones main story.
>>741603125>OOT is the perfect video gameMajora's Mask is better than OOT
>>741592074Thanks for nuking that clickbait
>>741595398You're assuming if one is shitty then the other isn't. OoT's formula is all around shitty. It's hype was the largest PR grift in game history outside of Star Citizen.
>>741591636He's right. OoT has amazing atmosphere and music, but its dungeons even as an adult mostly involve pushing blocks and hitting eye switches. Water was tedious due to the menu, Shadow is a linear corridor of small rooms, Spirit takes longer due to the Temple of Time switching, etc.The Gerudo training ground was an interesting idea that just ends up being dull AND it has a shit reward.
>>741591636Please god kill miyamoto, he's had his time and it's far past the moment when he should've died.He will not be missed.
>>741596453You might find the first few hours amazing, then realize it's the same kind content recycled over and over for the next 200 hours. Fighting the same 3 enemies and doing shrines that all look the same, and tons of downtime just wandering and watching Link slowly climb a wall.
>>741596453No it's a terrible empty game with little going for it that journous glazed because it was "different" from previous.The sequel is even larger with even more empty shit with nothing (almost double the emptiness) in it and some tinker toys.
>>741603859I only suggest playing it in that order because he needs to know why BotW made its impact and why TotK disappointed in that regard.
>>741604232BotW was a good foundation for something special and curried tons of optimism for the future, but TotK killed that optimism because they have NO fucking idea how to competently build on an open world foundation. and Mario Kart World further showed that Nintendo has no fucking clue how to make open world work.
>>741596453The most 7/10 game ever made. t. 132 in BotW
>>741603125>There is no room for improvement aside graphically.uhhh, the fucking gameplay dipshit
Here, just read the actual source interview, it's more interesting. OP takes it out of context.https://shmuplations.com/ocarinaoftime/
>>741604550OOT already had better gameplay than breath of the wild
>>741604654bahahahaa
>>7416045237 is a perfect score for Oot, Botw on the other hand got a 10 back in 2017, just 9 years back now
>>741604736>2017 was 9 years agoWHAT THE FUCK
>>741596794Its going to be so funny to see oot sell the exact same 7m copies and then get dwarfed by wilds.
>>741604373Call me crazy, but BotW should have been the basis for bi-yearly Zelda titles if not annually. Gimmicks galore should have been made and reused in BotW's engine. A game where weapons don't break but you upgrade them, a game where you focus on collecting materials primarily and cooking, so much potential was had, but nope, they mucked it up with a six year wait for an underwhelming sequel.
>>741596453Its excellent. One of the best open worlds ever created.
>>741596453it's a ok open world game, not a good zelda game
>>741605570Its a better Zelda game than Skyward Sword and Wind Waker
>>741602292>>741602341Notice how you have no actual rebuttal?
>buy an item from the store >pass the first obstacle yeah i kinda agree OOT is dogshit when you look at it without nostalgia goggles on
>>741605626Fuck no lmao
>>741605626WW is a better open world game than BotW
>>741605717My rebuttal is as thus: You are a nigger.
>>741605793>still no argumentConcession accepted.
>>741605759Fuck yes lmao>>741605771It isn't. It can barely be considered open world. Its just a bunch of bite sized levels separated by water. Great game, but its not as good as BotW.
>>741605207ok retard, just go play Totk or dont
>>741605771yeah, because nothing says good open world like railroading
>>741603486I'm hoping they learned from BotW and TotK to take off the kids gloves and make items a little more universal in usage instead of mostly just being the item you use in the dungeon you find it in, and designing puzzles to be more than shoot switch/push block = "puzzle".3D camera controls may have been a novelty thirty years ago, but it's baby level shit today.Some people like to shit on the shrines in botw/totk, but the fact is that they ask more of the player than just about any puzzle in oot, and nobody ever complained about them being too hard.
>>741602296You liked Ratchet and Clank Nuts n Bolts but not Shadow of the Colossus.
>>741606560Sorry, you incompetent disingenuous fagot, but Shadow of the Colossus works because it does not waste your time with excessive combat like nu-Zelda does. There are 11 colossi and that's how it is.
>>741606294I already played it faggot and it was disappointing. Go back to BotW and build on it properly.
>>741593989Why is Zelda 2’s green bar so close to ALTTP?
>>741591636You know what, I guess that is the one upside to ocarina getting remade. It is a structured classic zelda game and can't be turned into open world breat of the wild sloppa. Unless they go full ff7 remake with it which nintendo wont.
>>741593726>I have remake fatigueYou don't have to play them autist.
>>741606939Because despite nintendo and fans acting like it's the black sheep of the series, it sold just fine, barely being edged out by alttp until much later with rereleases.What's really telling is it beating wii sales of skyward sword.
>>741602326>anon, this IS a good vidya developer we're talking about.Ok?
>>741607032It could definitely become open world lol.
>>741591636I learned to ignore NAMES specially when they talk about their old iconic projects. Those were done by a team, a team that has long dissolved or retired and these NAMES are only capable of talking about the work these teams put on it while taking credit for it.
>>741607295>What's really telling is it beating wii sales of skyward sword Skyward Sword was a late Wii title, one that required Motion Plus alongside being on a console with a very low attach rate. At my old job at Goodwill, I got a lot of Wiimotes donated, regular ones instead of the motion plus ones. The Wii was a fad console among casuals, the same casuals Nintendo is still chasing to this day.
>>741608017I know, right?Hyrule field is so pointlessly big and every area connects to it. There is SO MUCH they can do with it in the remake.
>>741608280They won't. Just some qol and adapting it to the infantile atmosphere of modern zelda
>>741591636I actually hate traditional zelda dungeons, it feels like once you've played one you've played them all. They're not really that interesting, you get an item you solve a bunch of lame puzzles and then you fight the boss with that item. They feel like a massive pace breaker from the overall fun overworld traversal and exploration. I never missed them at all from botw and the beasts/dungeons in totk reminded me why they sucked. The shrines felt perfectly paced and never overstayed their welcome. Now I have problems with shines, and i'm not opposed to seeing how they would tackle dungeons after the botw era.
>>741596453Depending on who you ask you're going to get completely opposite answers. Anyone who unironically thinks OOT is one of the best games ever will hate it and anyone with a healthy BMI will admit its one of the finest open worlds ever created. The game still causes seethe to this day so it's worth checking out regardless.
>>741608623I kind of agree with you. Dungeons can feel like a chore to get out of the way so you can explore more of the overworld. I would like to see a hybrid approach with proper dungeons and items that unlock areas of the map, but the areas are massive regions with shrines that can be done with only the basic tool set. Basically the scale of botw but much less "freedom" to do anything any time. Oh, and no fucking spiderman climbing.
>>741607295Huh?Nintendo doesnt act like its the black sheep, they released it on both the gamecube legacy collections, it was on the wii shop, and it launched on the NSO NES. They dont talk about it much but thats the same for the first game as well. The fans though? Yeah, its the only sheep blacker than majoras mask was, but thats probably because it was too esoteric for babybrained ootniggers, just like majoras mask.
>>741608623Faggot.
>>741591636At least they aren't as bad as having to do the temples in FFX.
>>741608818I think striking a balance between the freedom (which can admittedly feel aimless) of botw and the rigid linearity of prior zeldas could be a good direction to go with. They wanted to avoid having a player go in any direction and be unable to progress because they lacked a special ability but I think that issue could be negated with more deliberate and careful world design and bring back that sense of progression. My fear is that Ocarina remake will be just like Starfox and just be the 64 game with cutscenes and voice acting. I'd like to see them take what they learned from those games and continue to expand what zelda could be.
>>741608017>It could definitely become open worldgood
>TikTok generation is somehow suppose to sit down an beat an entire temple instead of a 1 minute shrineA game like this is never going to succeed in 2026.
>>741596453It's extremely overrated, has a ton of fundamental flaws, embodies a ton of what's wrong with open worlds and is basically Zelda in name only. People who want more of it are either new to the series of never liked the series to begin with. It's liked just because it asks practically nothing from the player so they can endlessly run around in empty grassy fields to a few piano plinks.
>>741596787The difficulty curve is inverted and all fucked up. Someone who says everything oneshots you likely only played for a few hours. Beyond that, everything becomes more and more of a joke the longer you play.
>>741595656Waggle was actually the least of Skyward Sword's problem, how the world is structured is by far the biggest issue. If the surface actually featured a full Hyrule that you can freely explore instead of being locked to backtracking to the same 3 areas over and over again people would be putting it up as one of the greatest entries in the franchise.
>>741608623>it feels like once you've played one you've played them allexactly, and it especially feels bad when you've replayed a game a couple times, then it just becomes going through the motions, older Zelda games just dont have the replayability mindset from a design standpoint
>>741609453>the rigid linearity of prior ZeldasGenuinely what Zeldas had anything close to "rigid linearity"? WW, TP, and SS? That's three games made over like ten years! Why do people act like this was ever some dominant force terrorizing Zelda as a franchise? Because Aonuma told them so??
>>741610553You can count the non-linear Zelda on one hand.
>>741608623There's supposed to be other paces in the game than the pace of overworld exploration. You turning your nose up at anything you're expected to commit to for more than five minutes at a time sounds worse than ADHD, I should know, I have it and I still don't have a problem with the ideas of old Zelda puzzle design.
>>741596453Its great but aaaaa slop eaters need to hate it because it make their own games look shallow and bland. They leep yapping that botw features are "already done" but not even gta will have them. Especially the elemental mechanics
>>7416105971, 2, ALttP, OoT, MM... and I'm out of fingers on the one hand.BotW and TotK are non-linear, but I don't want to count them as Zelda for this.
Dungeons are fun. If you hate them you're a botw tranny and don't play video games.
>>741610553zelda 1 is the most non linear before botw. other than that you can do a couple dungeons out of order in OoT and ALttP, that's it
>>741610720It's shallow and bland. People with functioning brains hate it because it exemplifies what is wrong with open worlds.
>>741605207It has the wrong foundation for that.There's nothing to really reuse, the individual character controls are the worst part of BotW and the only good parts (the random "chemistry" shit) are the kind of stuff that will always stay the same no matter how many gimmicks are added or how the character controls themselves are changed. This is why TotK stumbled so much when trying to add more to it.A competent team capable of rolling out bi-yearly titles would not have made TotK or BotW.>>741605626It's worse than Wind Waker and is functionally identical to a content starved Skyward Sword without the Sunshine style level select.>>741609453The open world of BotW/TotK doesn't feel that free and the prior Zeldas weren't entirely rigidly linear (since that's a trend that was more actively enforced with the GC Zeldas).Just adding some more deliberate sequence breaks to OoT that are otherwise the domain of glitches would give it more freedom than TotK.
>>741609636Totk's dungeons were longer than a minute
>>741610803>functionally identical to a content starved Skyward Sword without the Sunshine style level selectme when I'm lobotomized
>>741610756I was actually considering your points until I realized you had mm on there lol
>>741610834>nooo that's linear it has a dungeon orderThe sidequests are the best implementation of nonlinearity the series has ever had, in my opinion.
Dumb question but why hasn't Nintendo just make a Legend of Zelda metroidvania? It's literally the same formula. One big-ass dungeom full of loot and secrets to uncover where you need to find specific items in order to progress.It's literally a no-brainer. You don't need a fucking overworld since the overworld is basically one giant hallway instead of a gorillion tightly constructed enemy encounters between items and bosses.
>>741610907lol
>>741593989>OOT - 23% console penetration rate>BOTW - 22% console penetration rateLooks like he's wrong actually
>>741595964>Ganondorf will shoot firstthat's stupid, you're stupid. obviously Agahnim will shoot first.
>>741591636Dungeons were never good
>>741591636I just wany more top down zeldas. Echoes of wisdom was good and the adventures of elliot is pretty fun so I hope they continue making them. I also hope they remake the ds zeldas.
>>741610971>play any traditional zelda>imagine the overworld is indoors>TADAA! LE METROIDVANIA
Majora's Mask was the best
>>741611093Am I wrong?
>>741611156It's not a wrong thought but it's not the best one.
>>741610819The main story quests are just as scripted and forced as anything in SS, there's just fewer of them.Whenever they put effort into scripting something, rather than just having an intern put something together from a tileset, it's usually not designed in a way that sparks freedom.>>741610971A single big-ass dungeon wouldn't feel like a Zelda dungeon and just spreading out individual Zelda dungeons would feel like ass to explore, because there would be too much friction.
>>741610783>it exemplifies what is wrong with open worldsBeing fun?
>>741609753>It's liked just becauseBecause the world interactivity is fun, the combat is fun, and the puzzles are fun.
>>741596782Lol. The games after suck because they're all tedious as shit and fail to do the things that made OoT great in the first place. OoT is constantly breaking what people claim is it's own 'formula', while subsequent games rigidly adhere to the "do event, do dungeon, get item, go to next dungeon" structure people claim OoT has but doesn't.
>>741604142>empty gameIf you ignore the towns, shrines, divine beasts, enemy camps, and korok puzzles.
>>741610971As the other guy said, your request is literally just a matter of framing. The difference between Metroidvania design and Zelda design is a goddamn perspective trick and nothing else. Which makes it even more aggravating that these fucking retards want to keep pretending old Zelda was "dated" and "linear", was Silksong linear? Was La Mulana linear? Fucking shit.
>>741611373>>741611383Metroidvanias usually fix that issue by segmenting the map into zones, which can basically be thought of as different dungeons due to being mostly isolated (unless it's La-Mulana, in which case lmao 75% of the tips are for OTHER parts of the fucking map). Plus it's not like having towns and side quests and whatnot are impossible either.
>>741611395All content coming in isolated pre-packaged bubbles that never really do anything to each other and which you can complete in a few minutes at a time.
>>741611584So like every game?
>>741591636crummy zelda dungeons? They should be collecting korok seeds instead!
>>741596453It's really close to being great they just needed to tone down the ubisoftness and add some actual dungeons / equipment unlocks
>>741599928It's actually insane that people exist who think this somehow. Zelda dungeons rarely even have interesting secrets of any kind, they're almost always limited to token collectables at best, and they never use the game's major systems (i.e. time, dimensional travel, vehicles) in any interesting way, or involve NPCs in any way that leads to a sidequest or a minigame. You almost always clear them out and then move on to the next and they virtually never have deeper layers to discover or matter to the world at large.Hyrule Castle is legit the only dungeon that tries to realize the actual potential of a proper dungeon in the entire series.
>>741611537As far as OoT is concerned, I think the reason people think it's linear is because you constantly have Navi badgering you to go and complete X temple despite temples Y and Z also being immediately available in case you get stuck or bored of X.
>>741611627No, like open world games specifically tend to do. You know how people rag on Ubisoft games for being "checklists"? That wasn't because there were a lot of objectives on a list, it was because the objectives were designed as a set of archetypes that could work just about anywhere, then copy pasted across the map and given slight tweaks to differentiate them.
>>741611769Doesn't Navi only get on your case if you're in Hyrule Field or like, the trail up Death Mountain? I was pretty sure the objective reminders stopped once you got into a dungeon or a town or what have you.
>>741592074Are you saying game journalists somehow fucked up a simple quote and are now promoting a false narrative amongst their circle of wagons?
>>741611737The dungeons are intended as a change of pace. Not every idea used in the overworld exploration is meant to be used in them.
>>741596453Starts 9/10 and drops a point every few hours off the plateau until you get fed up and drop it. It's not actually designed to be beaten, it's designed for you to get bored of. You either need autism or to ignore 95% of the world and it's garbage copy pasted filler to get through it.
>>741611010He's basically right. Most of the game is sidequests, so it is largely non-linear in much the same way BotW is, it's just that the linear part of the game is larger.
>>741610782>OoT and ALttPThey both have like 70 different dungeon orders.
>>741596453I couldn't get myself to finish it. It's kinda sad to have a world that big but very limited enemy variety. I just googled how many Stone Talus are in the game and they say 40; who the fuck thought this was ok ? I'd expect to fight a boss 3 times maximum, each time powered up. So in world that big I'd encounter it once every 60 hours. Right now you see one every 2 hours and feel like it's a chore
>>741596453It excels at tricking you into thinking exploring is ever meaningful or rewarding.
>>741611572>unless it's La-Mulana, in which case lmao 75% of the tips are for OTHER parts of the fucking mapThis is really my biggest issue with this game. It's one thing to make demands of the player, but the way it often doesn't let you narrow down what some clue or progression trigger is for without serious difficulty makes it much less fun and satisfying than it could have been.
>>741612243The sequel fixes that by explicitly telling you what generation made left the writing but yeah. It's super fucked up in the first game because you have no way of knowing what something means and reorganizing physical notebooks into coherent, organized notes is a pain in the fucking ass.
>>741611769>I think the reason people think it's linear is because you constantly have Navi badgering you to go and complete XThe single biggest 'point of failure' here is having the get the hookshot first thing as an adult. As soon as you exit the Temple of Time, you are technically free to go wherever, but you will be hard blocked everywhere unless you do exactly as the game says and immediately go to Kakariko to get the hookshot. This teaches the player that not doing what the game is saying is a *really bad* idea, and people hence get in the mindset that the rest of the game must be like this, because it hadn't even been genuinely non-linear up til that point and doesn't teach you that you'd want to explore.
>>741593989>The sales speak for themselves.uhhhh.. lets look into this>The global gaming population skyrocketed from roughly 200 million players in 2000 to approximately 3.3 to 3.5 billion active players globally by 2026.interesting. so there are way more gamers now then back then. lets look at some nintendo numbers though>Wii-U has 13.56 million units sold worldwide>The Nintendo Switch 2 has sold over 19.8 million hardware units>Nintendo Switch has reached 155.92 million units sold.>thats 189.28 consoles sold that can run breath of the wild.hmmmm>The Nintendo 64 sold 32.93 million units worldwide during its entire lifecycle>35.08 BotW sales means that 18.54% of households that bought a nintendo console that can run BotW also bought BotW.>7.6 OoT sales on release means that 23.08% of people who got an N64 Also got OoTuh oh. The increase in sales of the later games has more to do with their customer base increasing on the new consoles. Switch sold 3.7 times as much as nintendo 64, but switch version of botw only sold 3.45 times more than n64 OoTLooks like OoT did better in sales in relation to # of consoles sold.
>>741591636YES SHIGGY DADDY 120 MORE SHRINES AND REUSE THE HYRULE MAP FROM BOTW AGAIN PLEASE CUM IN MY MOUTH DADDY
>>741612431Another discovers the power of the attach rate.It's not perfect, but it normalizes game sales to correlate much more closely to quality.
>>741612474>REUSE THE HYRULE MAP FROM BOTWNintendo unironically should just for the reactions.
>>741611572I think Metroid Dread is one of the better arguments for not doing that, given just how much dead space is forced into the map by the EMMI zones, which could be a similar problem if you just have random "raise/lower the water level" dungeon mechanics or geometrically complex room arrangements jutting out into casual map traversal. The dungeon levels would be more complex and high-friction, so it would definitely be more work to get both elements right without putting them into separate areas like Ori does.
>>741611908>The dungeons are intended as a change of pace.And that would be perfectly fine. But instead of actually taking advantage of what dungeons enable, i.e. a cohesive planned out challenge for you to tackle that might involve a variety of things, most of them consist of a series of rooms with 'filler problems' at best, and only vary rarely involve proper puzzles or challenges, and so most of the problems are solved by finding which room has something to do that you haven't done yet.Like, legitimately, the majority of Zelda dungeons have like 2-3 genuine puzzles or serious problems per dungeon at best, the rest of the dungeon is mostly taken up by random 'activities' where you just kind of do something for the sake of doing it to fill out time and make the dungeon bigger, but which doesn't challenge you or play into anything else. Bosses likewise feel mostly the same, with only a few games even bothering to make them challenging. Having you frequently get the main item only in the last third of the dungeon, when that happens, tends to severely limit what the dungeon can do with it too.Zelda overworlds, in contrast, frequently involve mind bending industry leading stuff that you are given complete freedom to explore.
>>741612431>here is proof that fewer people bought consoles and games when shitty releases like OOT were amongst the flagship titlesThanks for the summary bud. Glad vaslty superior titles like BOTW have changed and grown the gaming landscape for the better.
Nothing tops Oracle of Ages. Nothing.
>>741605097Not really since I fully expect the remake to be complete shit.
>>741593989What are the numbers as percent of install base at the time of release and percent of install base for the final number of sales of the console?
>>741613081It's always crazy to look at the 2000-2004 Nintendo games back when games were still designed around the idea that they'd be harder and larger than the previous entry in the series. It wasn't until the Wii and later DS era they started making them easier. The dungeons in the Oracle games are absolutely massive.
>>741609453I wish another game in the series attempt ALTP semi linear approach where there is a vague order with a fixed first and last dungeon but you have a lot of choice in how you tackle the dungeons in the middle. It helps gives a sense of freedom without running into the various issues a fully open approach has
>>741591636>>741592074He isn't talking about fun to make them. He's talking about fun to play them. And I believe the reason he thinks that lies in the second quote: "I don't think those are very appropriate to a 3D game". I believe for a 3D game he expects a big open world. As is now the norm for Zelda. so I believe he feels like dungeons are "not fun" because they take you out of the world, to put you in a very constrained environment, and he'd rather have the more free environments you can just dip in and out of. >>741611904No, as usual Game Journalists are just dudes with opinions, that /v/ is being retarded and wrong about.
>>741614147That's exactly what Ocarina is.
>>741612705Without a hint of irony tendies will claim disconnected block pushing in various rooms is the pinnacle of game design. Because they were 8 and reviewers and Nintendo sat them down like parents and told them this is what peak design 'should' be. They cannot grasp how boring Zelda dungeons are or why BotW had to be the way it was. They will overlook this enormous blindspot and go to their grave insisting OoT was the perfect game and not something with a glaringly obvious flaw that Nintendo finally fixed.
>>741591636Everything Shigeru says these days makes me wish he'd stop voicing opinions.Can someone ship him off to the old folks home already?
>>741612705You seem to be on the same page as me about how the dungeon design worked out in practice. I just disagree that this is the fault of the dungeons themselves. I think the fault lies somewhere between the design team, and the fact that it's a fucking Nintendo franchise and that apparently means it's always been doomed to flop around pretending the upper 90% of the potential posed by its mechanics and design ideas doesn't exist.>Zelda overworlds, in contrast, frequently involve mind bending industry leading stuffEh, it's good and generally nicely designed, but let's not sell it that hard. WW-TP-SS showed us how much they can struggle to put together something that feels good.>that you are given complete freedom to explore. No, the cool part is the way the world unfolds as you get items, the "freedom" exists within the bounds of gameplay rules. They locked on to this idea HARD as soon as Zelda 2 elaborated the world into more than a field, dungeons, and a scattering of NPC caves, and it was a good call.
>>741607337nintendo hasn't been "good" in over a decade.
>>741607207you don't have to associate with niggers to have black fatigue. Same with remakes. I'm not even playing any.
>>741613081ages had the best dungeons in the series
>>741600556>They would have to actively try to make the game much, much worseGoing by the trailer's red flags and not showing any gameplay I would say that's appearing likely.
>>741617704Jabu Jabu's Belly alone makes this wrong.>>741617709Especially since it's probably coming out within the next four months (five if they're actually stupid enough to release it in GTA6's blast radius).
>>741592074Where do you see quotes in the headline? Is it around the>but I'm looking forward to the remake
>>741614386Open world isn’t the norm for Zelda. It was one game and one DLC. The next one will flop if it’s open world.
>>741604897Which means BotW is now old enough for fans of it to have their opinions cynically dismissed as nostalgiafagging. It's not going to be fun for them with the shoe now on the other foot.
>>741591636I don't think I've ever seen Miyamoto say anything that isn't completely fucking retarded.I'm curious to know how involved he was in making the classic Nintendo games, since he comes across like an idiot that doesn't know anything about games most of the time.
>>741591636senile old fook man
>>741612106No, (you) were not basically right. It was a very silly assertion.
>>741608623The problem I have with TotK and BotW is that everything feels too samey. All shrines look the same and the dungeons are really visually unimpressive and also don't have a nice soundtrack. The traditionally Zelda games had soundtracks and settings that were oozing with atmosphere. That's lacking now. I like the shrine soundtrack but it's really always the same setting and the same soundtrack. There should have been different shrine designs for all regions or individual designs for each and everyone but yeah that would take decades of development time.
>>741593989OoT walked so BotW could run
>>741591636If you enjoy puzzles and a chalenge, you had fun with most of OoT.
>>741611537>Which makes it even more aggravating that these fucking retards want to keep pretending old Zelda was "dated" and "linear", was Silksong linear? Was La Mulana linear? Fucking shit.if you cant tell why these zeldas are linear but silksong and LM arent linear, youre actually retardedIts no different from how some other metroidvanias get called linear
>>741591636>"You know, we asked ourselves whether those mazes, where everything is always linked in a linear fashion, are actually still interesting to players," Miyamoto said. "Is it still fun to spend all that time plotting your way through them? And the conclusion we came to is no, it's not really that much fun. Instead of mapping your way through a maze, I think what's more important is a sense of dread, a sense of pressure, and of course an opportunity for finding secrets and solving puzzles – we should be pursuing an emotional immediacy, the sense that you are really there."I don't really get the point he's trying to make. Just make dungeons that aren't boring slop hallways for toddlers? I get that they want to make exploration/adventure games but the overworld is borderline worthless empty space in OoT.
>>741623929I love Cross Code because of the puzzles in dungeonsNo game did like Zelda and now no game does it at all
>>741592074> MAKING them isn't funI had fun making them herehttps://store.steampowered.com/app/3897090/Temple_Maker_64/
>>741593046>>741598161sure, but my problem is the (awkward) way the headline is phrased strongly suggests that Miyamoto says that dungeons aren't fun (not what he said, it was about making them, and how the oot design came about), reenforced by the author looking forward to them (obv playing, not making them)it's really filthy, no one should give that cunt a clickthat it gets further misrepresented here is just typical /v/tardation
>>741591636Are they changing anything or not?
>>741592074>since the hard work (creating them) is already done - they just need to HD-ify themthis is going to age like milk
>>741629109we don't know, and neither does the author. He's just quoting a Miyamoto interview from 99 or sth to make some #content, there is 0 new info
>>741629109This. And Navi will give play-by-play information on how to progress
>>741629402So, nothing new then?
I want the destroyed castletown to be a place where you can explore more and more with each new item you get. like maybe alleyways are blocked off and you need the megaton hammer to clear it. or maybe there is a building with hundreds of redeads in it. and you need dins fire to clear it out so you can access the treasure in it.
>>741630104That sounds awesome
Yeah okay what about big Great Fairy ass tho
>>741625380People who put OoT and ALttP into the "linear" camp are wrong. Zelda progression is Metroidvania progression with a different coat of paint. Breath of the Wild misses the point and no longer has that Metroidvania progression.
>>741632642metroidvania means side scrolling zelda clone with a shitty map
>>741593989this is why you dont argue with botw babbs.they have never actually played a zelda game.all they know is ubislop.
>>741607295more like people bought the sequel to a great game expecting more of it and got burned with a really shitty game.same reason DMC2 sold more than DMC3.
>>741635109Zelda 2 is better than alttp so that's a nonsense statement.
>>741635187meds
How would YOU make zelda dungeons, einstein?
>>741635187absolute psycho take
>>741635258Progression and unlocking like OoT where there's a few "waves" of dungeon unlocking tied to moments where you make big leaps in the main quest. Maybe show up every previous 3D Zelda with 3 whole dungeon groups of around 3-5 dungeons each? Dungeons themselves designed like MM but with even more puzzle and combat intensity. Zero puzzles that boil down to hitting an obvious switch with the correct item. Zero puzzles that boil down to seeing a bunch of stuff and immediately knowing the way it's supposed to be arranged but having to spend several minutes arranging it.
Treating Zelda as just a large grouping of micro-dungeons rather than open world or several big dungeons, is the correct way going forward.
>>741635258Sens Fortress but the shortcuts are unlocked via Zelda puzzles
>>741591636He's right. 3D zeldas are shit compared to the 2D ones
>>741629402lol, what if everything in the game is yellow and the only hints you get are a few spots that aren't yellow
>>7415916363D Zelda dungeons are unfun. BOTW's Hyrule Castle is the first time in the series a dungeon was genuinely well-designed and built like a proper 3D vidya dungeon.
>>741617704Twilight princess*
>>741596453not really, no
>>741596453it is, get on that
>>741591636Who actually thinks shit like this is supposed to be fun? What about it is appealing?
