It's actually crazy how melee combat in 3D games have barely evolved beyond Ocarina of Time from 1998. There was some attempts in the 2000's to continue to innovate with games like DMC, Ninja Gaiden, God Hand, Batman Arkham, Dragon's Dogma etc; but then Souls got popular and everyone decided "nah actually lets just keep doing OoT 1v1 lock-on combat forever"
Average person really struggles with positioning, camera and crowd control in games. So every action game adopted the "duel" combat design of OoT/Souls
>Batman ArkhamThat game is braindead
>>741765605This is why people complained about Ds2 so much.
I wish games with melee combat used mouse swipes for different attack angles, and different block angles.
>>741765403dont forget about jedi knight outcast/academy, i was shocked about how good it was. enemies would follow you and jump across platformshttps://youtube.com/shorts/WScAgWUcI4I
>>741765625>>Batman Arkham>That game is braindeadNot relevant to the conversation, Arkham combat was innovative enough to get its own name and was copied by dozens of games.
>>741765403monster hunter has the best melee combat in all of 3d gaming, as it is the only one where positioning matters.
>>741765625if you read his post it's clear he is naming games that are trying something different than what OoT did you fucking idiot
>>741765625bamham actually has a really well thought out combat system but of course people mindlessly copied it without any real advancements or innovation so it gets a bad rap>>741765919>as it is the only one where positioning mattersWrong and MH still has issues, the old games have actual unironic bullshit while the new games devolve the gameplay to be more like a normal action game (which is then boring)
>>741765836i'd imagine this is how MGR plays with mouse and key
>>741765975but in that "devolved gameplay" positioning still matters
>>741766006not as much and you're giving such good tools to repositioning now whether in rise and wilds that it doesn't really feel like as serious of a skill
>>741765403Because its fun.
>>741766072it doesn't need to. I am opposing it to 99% of 3d games where you are glued to enemies and they are glued to you. Batman-likes, which even souls-likes became.
>>741766127>Because its fun.It's not fun when its basically the blueprint for every game though.
>>7417656640 poise works with crowds only if you have methods of controlling your engagement, either by having aggro pulled by others(dragon's dogma) or by having reliable crowd control attacks and outrunning enemies. souls gives you fewer options. your best hope is running back to a funnel point. the complaints are justified.>>741765836I'm considering a system like that for a future game I might make but the faster the attack, the less time the user has to recognize the correct answer. I think a lot of the time grabs are slow in games. sekiro preilous attacks are slower than combo chains.in sekiro you might want to pick between >parry>jump>mikiridirectional attacks explode your options>parry>>left>>right>>up>jump(Yes you can directional jump in sekiro but it doesn't matter because swipes will always miss)>>up>>left>>right>crouchyour directional attacks might triple the amount of options you have, and limit the correct one(suppose the enemy is armored so only a high attack works)It could work well with large bosses but normal enemies would probably be OP
Reminder DMC is dead and buried like 42% of your kind.
>>741766196If it wasnt fun it wouldnt be the blueprint. This is like when cs players complain that every other game is on mirage. People wouldn't pick mirage if it wasnt the best map.
>>741765852It innovated shit. It was just asscreed combat with frills.
>>741765949rude thread full of rude peoplethread hidden
Shooters have a similar problem where most FPS games still emulate CoD and most TPS games emulate Gears of War. I think the Wii/Motion control era really hurt gaming in the long run because it made devs really afraid to try new gameplay ideas. Lair wasn't a great game but I never liked how it was endlessly clowned on for trying to push sixaxis controls
>>741766256i think it sucks and is generic, but devs do it because you wouldn't be able to use a variety of weapons otherwise. longswords, katanas, axes, and axes have different fighting styles or use cases, and it would be difficult to balance them in different combat systems
>>741766256>If it wasnt fun it wouldnt be the blueprint. This is like when cs players complain that every other game is on mirage. People wouldn't pick mirage if it wasnt the best map.This argument would make sense if there wasn't proof that there's other way to do 3D melee combat in ways thats different while still being engaging and fun
>>741765403>Dragon's DogmaHuh?
>>741766676>overpass is fun guys I swear, stop picking mirage
>>741765403If you look past the graphics it's obvious to even zoomers we've been stuck in the same place since 2004.Even modern Roblox stuff is just GMOD mod servers with a different look.
The gaming industry never spiritually recovered from God Hand being a massive flop
It's actually crazy how consolefags don't understand their preferred platform has shit control options that have been holding back game design for 30 yearsLock-on (which predates OoT) has been melee combat cope the same way auto aim has been shooter game combat cope from day 1, and the refusal to let go of an inferior control scheme designed for casuals who want toys has kneecapped 3D game design since its infancy
>>741767021Mouse and keyboard is only good for aiming and menus, controller is better for everything else
>>741766724DDs climbing and pawn mechanics are pretty innovative
>>741765403What's even crazier and hard to believe is so many melee combat games have actually devolved in combat mechanics including the very Zelda series you cited. It's truly absurd.
>>741765843It was pretty ballsy to make the entire opening of this game not give you the game's entire selling point, but it made the feeling of getting the lightsaber in this game is the coolest shit ever.
I was hoping the new Onimusha would be doing some cool combat stuff but sadly the demo they released didn't impress me at all, there was some interesting ideas but it was a very simple and easy. It's just a demo though so hopefully the full game is more fleshed out
>>741765403Haven't played Bamham (don't like capeshit), but isn't it like Hogwarts where you're just reacting to the icons popping up over your character? Like, oh it's a parry icon, I need to press the parry button now. Yes, it lets you fight large groups unlike Ocarina/Souls, but you don't even watch the enemies, you're laser focused on your character so that you don't miss the parry/dodge prompts, which feels really fucking weird.
>>741767021>he prefers WASD movement in a melee combat gameLet me guess, Eastern Europe? No idea why you fucks are so religious about M+KB controls. M+KB only makes sense in shooters and mouse driven games like RTS's, CRPG's and point & click adventure games.The 360 analog movement makes any melee game like 100x better, you can move/dodge in full 360 degrees rather than the 8 directions WASD gives you.
>>741765403I want to believe that those older style action games are making a comeback back. God of War has air combat again and they're remaking the greek saga. That Tides of Annihilation looks pretty cool. Ninja Garden 4 is pretty recent. So hopefully this brings in some interesting new game trends away from the typical souls formula. >>741766256>If it wasnt fun it wouldnt be the blueprintthis is like saying popular thing = good. Bamham combat was everywhere at one point btw and was the blueprint.>>741767021>Webmgimmicky combat isn't gonna bring any innovation >>741768239Same, though the environmental interactions are a nice addition at least. And I won't judge the game too harshly until it's out
>>741766917>all that shit for a pixel's worth of the boss' HPI'm still gonna give God Hand an earnest try some day but still.
>>741768643>preferring stick movementyou're brown
>>741765403They got it right the first time. Z targeting is one of the best game mechanics to come out of the n64 era.
>>741765403Souls combat is nothing like OoT tho, and that's a good thing
>>741768643>the 8 directions WASD gives youdon't just ignore the mouse retard, you get much much more precise movement options since you can move the camera however you want and not be restricted by a slow imprecise stick
>>741768309It's pretty basic Simon Says shit, the fun comes from when they start throwing lots of enemies at you, and a lot of them have specific counters. So it then becomes a Guitar Hero game of punch>counter>dodge>batarang>cape>grappel>punch>counter>cape and you keep building your combo up until you mess upIts simple but effective, doesnt get deserve the shit it gets for being copied a bunch, also watching batman breaking people's arms and smashing their face in is fun
>>741768763>nothing like itBoth games you strife to the side and hop to dodge. Attack during openings. Block attacks, Use items to help defeat enemies.Dark souls games are literally the next step in combat from OoT.
>>741768309there is a counter icon, but you don't have to press the counter button. you can do something else and still avoid the attack.Arkham game combat is pretty good if you engage with making combos and learning different situational moves. If you just spam punch and counter then you'll get bored. I would say that's the fault of the player for not engaging with the fighting system.
>>741765625kino*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyrOlXB7EQM
>>741765403It's only because of limited console controllers and their lack of precision. We have plenty of more unique melee combat games on PC that never took off in the mass market because they feel like shit on controller.
>>741769098Controllers have had gyro for 20 years now and its still far from being industry standard despite being a superior aiming method, the controller isn't the problem, it's the lack of imagination from both gamers and devs
>>741769413You can blame Microsoft for that one. If gyro was a feature of Xinput you can bet your ass that we'd have WAY more games with gyro.
I dont think lock on is always a bad thing but its definitely become a design crutch for devs and players, same with parries
>>741765836For Honor does this with the three-direction attack/block anglesIt's okay but doesn't feel greatI suspect this is the direction that a sekiro 2 would go, like vertical and horizontal attacks that need the stick to be held vertically/horizontally to deflect or some shit
That's because all action games are braindead garbage. There are no brain cells to evolve
So far only one franchise has dared to ask, "well, what if we didn't use lock-on?" The results? Amazing.
>>741768643>Let me guess, Eastern Europe? No idea why you fucks are so religious about M+KB controls. M+KB only makes sense in shooters and mouse driven games like RTS's, CRPG's and point & click adventure games.And typingAnd platformersAnd fighting gamesAnd 2D games because every 2D game is better played on a DPADThe precision you are speaking of sticks has no real use because it's mostly used for walking and redirecting the camera.Any good 3D platformer on PC uses the mouse camera control to redirect the movements of the characterA keyboard with a stick probably exists but why isn't popular if the qualities you're speaking of a stick are so great? That's because they make no real difference.Aiming with a mouse on the other hand does make a difference compared to aiming with a stick.
>>741768239I think the devs acknowledged feedback that the demo was too easy, though that probably doesn't mean they're going to make any drastic changres
>>741765403There's nothing wrong with that though because it works. You just need to add on new layers to OOT's duel combat. If you were 1 v 1ing an opponent with a weapon - it would function like that.
>>741768309So in Asylum (the first game) yes this was trueThe very basic level of gameplay is>*punch* *punch* *punch*>enemy attacks *parry*>your combo counter hits x5 *takedown*There are a few other unlockable skills but only one is useful, which gives your punches extra power + combo count if you time the *punch* press correctly (very very lenient)It's still fun, because it feels very rhythmic and satisfyingStarting from City (the second game) they expanded the combat a lot, by giving all your gadgets combat options that don't disrupt your timer e.g. you can plant explosive gel mid-combo then blow it up to knock down some enemiesThey also introduced a few enemies that require special attacks to hurt (e.g. the big guys need blnded + beatdown, the knife guys can be instagibbed if you do the parry sequence correctly etc.). Iirc Asylum had the stun baton guys (have to jump behind them) and shield guys maybe? They also enabled (on higher difficulties) multiple enemies to attack you at once, requiring multiple taps of the counter button. And on hard mode (have to finish the game first, unfortunately) it lets you toggle off the counter indicator, which is fine because you can see when enemies are attacking you by animation alone - this really should have been an option from the beginning, iirc it's available from the start in subsequent gamesOrigins (the third/b-team game) gives you "shock gloves" that basically let you punch any enemy for a while, even those that normally can't be attacked directly. This completely breaks the combat, because the optimal strategy is to simply *punch* *punch* *punch* until you charge the gloves, then *punchpunchpunch* everybody, then repeatKnight (the final game) ups the number of enemies, and gives you ridiculously strong tools to fight them, but scales back the shock glove bullshitThe combat is good and fun, it's satisfying and rhythmic, it gets a bad rap but it was revolutionary in 2009
>>741771389>There's nothing wrong with that though because it works. You just need to add on new layers to OOT's duel combat.This is literally what Souls games have been doing for the last 20 years or so and it honestly sucks at this point. The core combat mechanics are so basic that the only option left is just to add more and more ridiculous enemy attacks to try and keep it interesting.
>>741765836So like Skyward Sword then
>>741766343It was one of the more innovative combat systems in the 2000s. The opinion of an insignificant moron like you will not change that.
>>741765403would a 3d to 2d system similar to Pokken work?
>>741771856Shadow of the Erdtree felt like what people who hate Elden Ring thinks Elden Ring is like
>>741768309You don't even really need to move the control stick at all, your character just automatically moves from one enemy to the next. It's barely a combat system
>>741775281you do need to move the analog stick to make sure you don't target the wrong guy once they start introducing tougher resistant enemies
>>741768767>you get much much more precise movement options since you can move the camera howeverThis is only a thing in first person games. This thread is about third person games, you dumbass, and the movement and camera are decoupled in all of them, outside of really old ones like idk BloodRayne 1.
>>741776534whether fps or tps, it does not make a differenceyou are clearly brown if you dont understand it
>>741765625the point is that it tried something different. it being good or bad isnt relevant.
>>741768686he has attack opportunities but he's playing scared, could have guard broken, could have swept the leg and comboed
>>741776690>no argument>y-you're brownlmao
>>741768643100x better but you have to lock on to hit anything in both melee or ranged combat lol faggot
>>741776910>says no argument>didnt have one himselfyep, brown
>>741776534>This thread is about third person games, you dumbass, and the movement and camera are decoupled in all of themThis isn't true. Most modern 3rd person games use both for movement.If you just use the left analog stick, you're character will move independent of the camera. However if you start walking with the left stick and move the camera, your character will be guided by the camera stick.
>>741777057>first person game>M+KB is betterno shit?>>741777119read nigga read, movement and camera are decoupled in third person games, so you can't make up for the limited WASD movement with your mouse. like in Elden Ring, when you spin the camera around your character doesn't look in its direction, so you're stuck with the 8 directions WASD gives you, and can't make a precise roll (e.g. 11 o'clock)
>>741777298Exanima is third person and its combat mogs every lock-on melee game in existence
>>741777398>isometric game that's been in early access for 11 years>mogs everythingbait or mental retardation, call it
>>741767021the weapon getting caught on the wall was absolutely peak
>>741777537>gamepad controls are better in every case except first person, third person, shooters, melee combat, RTS, tactics, RPGs, menu based games, point and click etcLol faggot
Creator of ICO and SotC says the age of game mechanics is over. People's ideas of what games are is now too deeply engrained in the culture, so all you can do is refine existing gameplay and focus on presentation.
>>741777793Expedition 33 came out last year and had completely new never before seen combat mechanics, and everyone loved that. Shove your black pill up your ass.
>>741765403>There was some attempts in the 2000's to continue to innovate with games like DMC, Ninja Gaiden, God Hand, Batman Arkham, Dragon's Dogma etc;Ironically BOTW then copied ideas from Dragon's Dogma.
>>741771150>And fighting gamesThat's fight stick territorySpecialized controls for a specific genre, kind of like plane autists and stuff like HOTAS
>>741777978What exactly do you think E33 did that no one else has done?
>>741777978>new never before seen combat mechanicsQTEs in combat aren't newE33's combat is very similar to games like Legend of Dragoon and TTYD
>>741777978>generic JRPG design but with a parry and french coat of paintliterally proving his point
>>741765836Mount & Blade did this 20 years ago. Also has kicks, shield bashes, chambering, some heavy weapons crush through blocks from above...>>741768650>gimmickyyou're a shitter who knows absolutely nothing
>>741765403You forgot how retarded devs instead of taking inspiration from the 30+ years of 2D games started shoehorning Souls mechanics into them as well.>>741772860> a 3d to 2d systemThe Tales series does that. It does work albeit with caveats.
>>741777793I don't really agree with this, especially coming from someone who designs console games. When players (and thus developers) are stuck to a device with such limited input options, game design is equally held back. Mouse & keyboard greatly improve game design potential, which is why PC exclusive games are often unplayable on console.The first step in innovation is unlocking the door for devs, and that means newer console systems need to take off the training wheels and deliver basic controllers that have greatly expanded functionality, even if that mostly just means "more buttons."
>>741779558He's not just talking about inputs, modern controllers can do more things than they could back then, devs just dont bother because there's no real audience for it
>>741768686There are an immense amount of combat options in God Hand and the dodge system while a little goofy works surprisingly well once you get the hang of it.
>>741772082And Kingdom Come.Skyward Sword was peak, it's unfortunate it kinda suck to play on modern controller.
>>741779771He doesn't say much in the article, and certainly nothing that denies my point. Apparently he's had a defeatist attitude about gaming innovation going back to at least 2012, since which time entire new genres have risen. If you want to argue extremely zoomed-out semantics and say games like Escape from Tarkov aren't actually doing anything new, go ahead, but then you cannot have a meaningful conversation about game mechanics and might as easily just say game design innovation died in the '90s or even earlier.Look, the guy made a brief and really stupid point. It doesn't need to be defended, even if you like his games.
>>741777298you're so fucking brown you fucking retardusing mkb in tps does not make your game be tank controls, W still goes towards where the camera is facingim so fucking tired of explaining the most basic shit to browns
>>741765836no you don'tt. played die by the sword
>>741779558The idea that consoles and controllers are somehow holding back game design is extremely silly when PC is the home of indie games, and even without financial constraints and publisher intervention, a shit ton of devs still choose to make survival craft and roguelike deckbuilders. The truth is that people are just creatures of habit and not that creative
>>741778518>you're a shitterOr maybe I'm not delusional like you. Notice how none of these games are influencing anything. Not even in the PC space which has been growing lately more than it was back then. That's cause they're not doing anything worth making a staple to third person melee combat. Having finicky controls doesn't make the game better like you think it does. And it goes down to what kind of game devs are aiming to make. physics based, fast paced, simple but satisfying etc.
>>741779558Your logic would just lead to pic rel. The lack of a mouse is what makes some PC games unplayable on console, not the lack of an entire keyboard PC games don't even use to the fullest except for chatting.Console manufacturers are constantly giving devs new tools to make innovative games and they're always dismissed as dumb gimmicks. Innovation needs to come from using what you have in different ways, not adding more hardware.
>>741782887Using your logic we should've stayed on the D-pad and A and B buttons, no additional face buttons, analogs, shoulder buttons, nothing
>>741783061What I'm saying is that the controller has been "settled" and adding 10 more buttons to it will not let devs express their creativity, it will only make it a confusing mess like the joke image I posted.Again, PC games don't utilize every key available to them. The problem is not the lack of inputs.
>>741777978Anon JRPG stand and hit combat had the ability to also dodge+block and click QTE for extra damage since SUPER MARIO RPG IN THE 90sYou're literally just proving his point and its all presentation
my game has no dodges nor lock-on, go check it out (Project Goblin)
>>741765403Blame controllers staying mostly the same after 5th gen.>But dual analogEven shooters don't pretend that the right analog stick matters as an input method, most games without lock-ons are cameras that do their own thing just assume that the player will alternate which analog stick they will stop paying attention to, which is why FPS games have ADS and run buttons.Your brain does not have the bandwidth in the corpus callosum to coordinate the thumb movements required for precise dual analog movement and latency is also bad due to nerve distance, you are basically two people sharing a controller at that point.>>741772702Bamham combat was just snapping to enemies and counterslop. The games played themselves.
>>741787456>Blame controllers staying mostly the same after 5th gen.Like other posts already pointed out, gyro aim has been a thing for 20 years and was largely rejected by users. Its not that games cant be designed differently, its that the gaming audience just wants what they already like and are used to
>>741787934>Largely rejectedGyro as a gimmick was widely waggled about for most of 7th gen and doing nothing because most multiplats were designed for 360 parity, first party developers were brain damaged and getting controllers other than the 360 controller to work was an ever increasing pain in the ass due to bad ports and Xinput, and it definitely wasn't getting used for gyro aim, because the Wii pointer was just transparently better and the tech was a little immature even on the DS3.In 8th gen Sony canned gyro deliberately because they were doing the opposite of everything that Microsoft was doing just to avoid being fucked by public opinion, Microsoft continued not having motion controls (The kinect was useless unless you were using it off the console for VR) and even Nintendo mostly rolled back motion controls (The Wii U pro controller had ZERO motion controls), so in late 7th gen and early 8th gen motion controls were for VR autism and nothing else.Gyro aim basically wasn't a thing until Splatoon and even then it didn't really take off until PC started using the DS4 and Steam Controller for BotW and other titles.Gyro aim has been a thing for about 10 years and has been mostly seeing growing acceptance. Trying to pretend that people don't want to move and that motion controls aren't a good idea is mostly just corporate anti-marketing from Microsoft and TORtanic posting.
>>741768767>>741767021Mouse compensates for the keyboard because 4 button input is shit for proper 3D movement>>741771150>>Any good 3D platformer on PC uses the mouse camera control to redirect the movements of the characterWhich ones?>And platformers>And fighting games>And 2D games because every 2D game is better played on a DPADWhat about the form factor?>>741778246Keyboard is basically a hitbox/mixbox
I think Sifu did a pretty good job evolving the formula.
>>741790282I like Sifu but its still parry slop, it just has the extra layer where sometimes dodge stuns the opponent like a parry. A lot of other stuff in it is derived from other games. It's well polished but certainly not original
>>741793048>I like Sifu but its still parry slop, it just has the extra layer where sometimes dodge stuns the opponent like a parry. A lot of other stuff in it is derived from other games.I think its different enough to feel fresh and thats whats important, the problem isn't that games are taking ideas from other games, even OoT does that, it's the feeling of too samey gameplay
>>741794150>I think its different enough to feel freshplay more games
Which is why I think people calling some of the older consoles "retro" when the games on them and features on them are still very much relevant.
>>741783541elden ring would objectively been improved if controllers had even 1 more input to remove sprint and dodge from the same button, thereby allowing dodge-on-press instead of dodge-on-release which causes so much frustration for new playersthe controller is not settled, it is being held hostage by jewish copyright law which prevents consoles from adding backbumpers which are one of the few remaining inputs one could add
>>741765836>exanimaPain in the ass but really fun when you figure it out
>>741794792>elden ringFromsoft are just bad at making a controller layout. They could have the use item on one of the d-pad directions and free up a button.
>>741765843I played 1v1 of a lightsaber battle in a standing VR setup at Kings Island in like 2002-2004.. I don't know if it dark forces or jedi outcast. There was also a VR setup where you lay on your back in a chair, which I definitely know what dark forces.
>>741766216You have plenty of options in dark souls 2 and you have a form of stagger resistance
>>741783541>>741782887It's a rather retarded "joke" because it misses the point entirely. You don't add more buttons, you certainly don't add more analog sticks. That's retarded.
>>741788856It will be preem to see gyro become a foundational and the default all thanks to Nintendo gamers.
>>741765403The GOAT
>>741800817>he ages and becomes stronger at fighting and climbingI've heard these types of promises before
>>741790282I agree anonIt has no lockon, and lots and lots of moves, and knockdown mechanics, and the posture bar works in two ways instead of one. What I mean by that isIn Sifu, blocks and parries build your stagger bar, but dodges reduce itWhereas in Sekiro, I don't think anything but holding block and waiting reduces it (maybe something does? Deflecting doesn't)So the idea in Sifu is to parry some attacks and dodge others, but in practice I don't think it matters, at least I've played the game a lot on master difficulty and never felt like I had to consciously dodge vs parry for the purpose of managing my stagger meter aloneLove the game though, Sifu 2 when
>>741765403I blame graphicsfaggotry after it really mattered (so like 2010 - 2012) keeping the spotlight from actually improving things like melee combat and physics in game. By 2013, outside of having stable 60 FPS framerates, there really wasn't anything that needed to be done to improve graphics for games.
Chivalry2 has the best melee system and it’s not even close.
>>741805257Now that graphics have basically peaked and can't get much better I hope we see games going back to focusing more on physics and interactivity
>>741777793His analysis of the problem isn't wrong in a way, but I do think that games can be made that have deeper mechanics that are refined and disagree with the idea that the age of game mechanics is over. There's always new ideas to try out and ways to implement the more sound ones.>>741777978You mean the game that copied Paper Mario, Mario RPG and Legend of Dragoon?>>741806126I hope so too but I'm not that optimistic about it since game devs have been making games LESS interactive than ever before (to the point of being unironic movies) with hardware 1000-1,000,000x more powerful than some of the stuff we had 20 years ago when these sorts of games started popping up.If it does happen, it will happen at the AA or indie level or maybe one of the more ambitious Japanese developers will start doing it. The Western AAA gaming industry is the new Hollywood and will keep pumping out hot garbage until kingdom come.
>>741765664>>741765605Average person can not multi task. a large amount of people will panic and their brain will practically shut down when they are forced to fight more than 1 enemy.souls games are leaning more and more into "trail and error" type attacks becuase its the easiest way to make your game harder without hard filtering a large amount of players because any idiot can beat your boss if he is willing to rote memory his way through it.t- studied peoples reactions to different fights in souls and saw that multi task fights or fights that require good strategy would filter the fuck out of some people to the point they shut down before they even tried.
>>741765403>lock-on combatjust dont use lock-on? i never do
>>741786079Ok I'll play the demo
>>741765403I just quit playing Gothic 1 Classic. Finally got it to work and holy shit is the controls fucking janky. It's even janky in the day. How the fuck is Morrowind meme'd for having janky combat when that was simply RPG/RNG die roll tied to stats/skills/weap proficiency, and Gothic 1 didn't take the cake for that? It's fucking garbage. It's worse than the shittiest low-effort bootleg android game made by some 10 year old favelan monkey fucking 10 years ago. Obviously I never got to 2 and 3, and apparently people are saying the combat gets even worst than 1. People are really overlooking and taking it for granted, what OOT """"invented""""" back in 1998. Gothic 1 came out in fucking 2001. That stupid SEGA was an on-rails faux-3D faux-3D targeting, and Tomb Raider also had auto lock on. The Z-targeting in OOT is the same exact fucking 3D/Depth/Z-axis/circle-strafing that's used in modern fucking game TODAY.
>>741807782>How the fuck is Morrowind meme'd for having janky combat when that was simply RPG/RNG die roll tied to stats/skills/weap proficiency, and Gothic 1 didn't take the cake for that?Morrowind had normalfag overlap, while the people who played Gothic only ever appealed to insane people
>>741765605>>741765664>>741807127>implying you retards didn't just kite the enemies into a line to fight them 1-3 at a time and trviliaze the "multitasking" problem by turning the group into a series of 1v1s anyways
>>741765836Mordhau
>>741765403What's crazy is how many things God of War 2018 fucked up that DMC 1 on the PS2 already solved 20 years earlier.And the things they fucked up were done because they were trying to be more cinematic instead of putting the gameplay first.
>>741765403>nah actually lets just keep doing OoT 1v1 lock-on combat foreverSouls is pretty much a 1v1 game though, fighting against more than 1 enemy is dogshit.
>>741765605>Average person really struggles with positioning, camera and crowd control in games.Women struggle with that stuff - in other words, the people that modern games are focus tested on.
>>741808934Do I just suck or was it super easy to get fucked by the environmental geometry in that game? I rarely have this problem in other games but in GoW18 it felt like I was constantly rolling into invisible walls that caused me to get hit by an enemy
>>741765403which games had good innovative combat against multiple enemies that's NOT in the vein of Arkham games?
>>741765403>"nah actually lets just keep doing Tomb Raider 1v1 lock-on combat forever"ftfy, tendie
>>7417690460:39 While batman beats a guy up, another enemy tries to attack him and just phases through him, doing nothing
>>741809407Skyward Sword
>>741767882People will insist that this is good because of the variety of weapons and their sandbox usage, but the fact is without doing gimmicky shit that most people won't do, BotW/TotK combat kinda fucking sucks ass.
I like the Z target noise
>>741809418Yeah and OoT is technically just Link to the Past in 3D, nigger nobody cares. OoT is the hugely influential game everyone copied and that's what matters.
Once something becomes the standard its very hard for it to get destandardized. Just look at how RPGs will eternally live in the shadow of D&D. If you want to make an RPG that goes against the style of D&D you're fighting an uphill battle.
>>741777793>Creator of ICO and SotC says the age of game mechanics is over>People's ideas of what games are is now too deeply engrained in the culture, so all you can do is refine existing gameplay and focus on presentation.>>741806126>I hope we see games going back to focusing more on physics and interactivityYou could just stop playing AAAslop.
>>741810415Kind of. The iPhone didn't invent anything, but no one gave a shit about capacitive smartphones of that style of UI before it got popular.Tomb Raider, on the other hand, is something that every PlayStation owner played.
>>741810415Buddy, that collage had to be made because of the amount of nonsense and false claims that nintendo niggers like you parrot every day.I know that, when it comes to the retro scene, nintendo got raped by sony and microsoft, with even japan turning its back on so much gaijin oriented trash games, but making up all these lies and delusional claims just to feel a little better is the worst kind of cope.
>>741765836>skyward sword is now goodHmmmmm
>>741811547Indie shit certainly isn't creating new mechanics
>>741811886nta but SSs motion plus tech was actually neat, problem was it's stuck in a shit Zelda game
>>741808765Janky and dead. Chiv2 has a much better combat system but more importantly it’s still played with full servers.
>>741766398fag
>>741808604the funny thing is a lot of people dont know how to do even that. if it makes you feel any better though, i beat double crucible knight on release by realizing that the first attack by the spear guy can be ducked if you use a "low stance" attack. triple rot crystallian also forced you to develop actual tactics for the fight to fit your attacks into a rythme that involved positioning as well.
>>741768763Dark Souls is just OoT with a stamina bar.
>>741809246Considering its a behind the shoulder movie game where the developers cared more about the cinematic feel of the combat versus the actual ability to process what's going on during combat, it's probably not you
erBotw> Bullet time> Sneak attack> Jump slice> Charge attack> Bow and arrowsTotk> Throwing shit> Ultrahand dropping shit> Bots> Gay buddies helping> Gay buddies give you abilities
>>741765605yup ive seen people cry because they cant control the camera in ninja gaiden and enemies jump around when all you have to do is click one fucking button
>>741814714*move the stick in the correct direction and click one fucking button
>>741811806the iphone combined touchscreen with nonretarded ui
>>741768763>Souls combat is nothing like OoTI feel like a recall hearing the souls director say that OoT was his direct inspiration.It's all there in OoT but the strafing and backflips don't have much purpose other than looking cool.The main difference outside of enemy variety and weapons is that the souls games have much clunkier, restrictive controls. The Zelda games feel so fluid and great to play but don't provide much challenge.
>>741814226chiv 2 feels like sauceless mordhau
