I've read enough of the greats of classic literature at this point to state confidently that the people who need to qualify that a game's story is "good for videogame standards" are either cowards afraid of being looked down upon or pseuds. No, as it turns out, whilst no video game has reached the heights of what 1000s of years of human storytelling has produced, plenty of games praised as having good writing do, in fact, have genuinely good writing. Pic tangentially related.
oh yeah? name 10 greats of classic literature you've read
>>743267427Games are meant to be interactive and give the player choice and agency. But the more agency and choice you give the player the more plot holes and inconsistencies in the story will arise because of it.And vice versa, too little agency and rigid writing will lead to a game that is not really a game but a visual novel or an audio book with buttons.Remember that a good game has to account for multiple endings and plethora of different choices a player can take in tandem while majority of books have their events set in stone with little to no deviation; allowing the writer of a book to put far more depth into the story they write than a video game writer can.
>>743267427I'm with you OP. However, it's worth noting that the things that make video game writing good aren't necessarily the same.
Some games like armored core for answer or eternal darkness have stories which are only possible in a game format
>>743267427I briefly became a bookfag and it didn't take long to realize literature is full of pure dogshit just like vidya or any medium. There's no reason for anyone to act superior to gamers because they read stupid fiction slop.
good writing by itself is kinda boring thoyeah I can recognize it's le good but who cares if it is not fun
>>743268373also death stranding
>>743268383>good things are... le badvee
>>743267427But Disco Elysium is the the first and only well written game
>>743267427Journal status?
>>743268214The Brothers KarazamovThe IdiotThe IliadThe Hungry Hungry CaterpillarMy ImmortalThe Lord of the RingsThe Crime and The PunishmentSteins;gateThe Bible/v/ - video games
>>743268376well yeah. even /lit/ pseuds avoid genre fiction to act high and mighty.
>>743268482Updated.
>>743268383use your brain to examine what exactly isn't working for you and whether you actually think it's good or if you just think it is because everybody says so.
>>743268294It's true that games with a lot of player choice and agency are more likely to introduce inconsistencies and the like (this is also because games require far greater man hours to produce and sometimes editting a story beat to plug up an inconsistency isn't feasible), but plot holes and inconsistencies don't autmatically drag a story into the gutter. It really depends on how obvious the hole is, how damaging it is to the overall narrative, and so on.
>>743268376what books did you read?
>>743268816I think games get easily overrated because they have "good writing" when "good writing" isn't why I want to play a game. it is not actually fun. it becomes bloated moviegame with amazing reviews that is not fun for ME personally to playalso, games are ugly compared to new content in HDR mastered by professionals on streaming services. so I could just watch that for """good writing""" instead
>>743267427i bet if you actually listed books you thought were good youd be called a retard
>>743269436That's just a universal 4channel.org experience.
>>743269091Diary of a Wimpy Kid
>>743268294games have no plota game is a challenge with a rulesetplot is entirely separate tacked on sideshow irrelevant to the game component
>>743267427What are your thoughts on I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, OP? Interesting instance of game devs working very directly with the original author to expand upon the original story together
>>743267427>No, as it turns out, whilst no video game has reached the heights of what 1000s of years of human storytelling has producedThey did, in 1998. Maybe not 100%, but I'm damn serious about one thing, the criteria for which a work like The Brothers Karamazov is considered a masterpiece, such as polyphony, theodicy, or the viscerality with which philosophical stances are embodied, are all met by picrel.
I only want writing in genuine roleplaying games but those are rare. most CRPGs are just walls of texts, like reading a book or a bunch of short stories one after another but worse
>>743268987One has to also account a certain bias. A fundamental difference book writing and game writing. In majority of books reader is only a spectator while in games the player is directly part of the world and the story. Perhaps the reason a lot of avid book readers might not enjoy video game writing to the fullest is because they are not accustomed to actually being part of the story.
>>743268214t.
>>743270036I mostly prefer it to the original short story, the only thing that I the OG does better is maintain the bleak atmosphere that Harlan was clearly going for. From what I can recall, Cyberdreams, the team that worked with Harlan, pushed back on him when he said he wanted the ending of the game to essentially be a forced bad end, which I think was a mistake. Besides that, though, it generally fleshes out characters who were otherwise just name in interesting ways and gives them a lot more depth. My favorite scenario is Benny's.
>>743270168Yeah. Xenogears has a legitimately great story.>but disc 2I know it was a decision made out of necessity for time and budget reasons, but it works out okay. In some ways, it may have even improved that stage of the story by having it told so differently.
>>743267427>No, as it turns out, whilst no video game has reached the heights of what 1000s of years of human storytelling has producedSo you're the same kind of faggot who thinks that there haven't been any composers as good as classical ones, i.e. a retard.Good talk.
>>743267427Most books are beyond slop.In terms of the ratio of slop:quality, out of all mediums books are literally the worst. Even in the modern age of slop AAA releases. The biggest AAA in any given year is almost always better than the big book release that year which is often some self help grift pushed by some career tiktoker or some shit
>>743267427>the heights of what 1000s of years of human storytelling has producedThis should always immediately end these "discussions" because NO FUCKING SHIT the cream of the crop of a medium that's been around for thousands of years is going to beat out the average output of a medium that's been around for 50 years.
>>743268376I actually disagree, it has more shit than any other medium, think about it especially nowadays Ai slop books? People have been getting away with that shit and no one notices lmao because so much is slop already Ai slop music? People notice that shit instantly Ai slop art? People notice that shit instantly
>>743268429And lobotomy corporation. At least it wouldn't be remotely as impactful if it was a pure VN
>>743270414there hasn't
>>743270381I agree, I completely understand the arguments against it, but that type of past-tense narration, even if it was born out of a compromise, has its roots in Greek tragedy. Narrating tragedies in the past tense creates a sense of inevitability that present-tense writing simply doesn't have
>>743267427Based
>>743269360>also, games are ugly compared to new content in HDR mastered by professionals on streaming services. so I could just watch that for """good writing""" insteadmodern movies and tv shows are fucking hideous compared to older movies filmed on actual film with proper lighting
>Oh my science the writing in this video game is so amazing!>t. hasn't read a book since high school
What games would you recommend as having great writing OP? Aside from your pic
>>743271190Some of these have some obvious flaws, but:KotOR 2, Xenogears, the Persona 2 duology, 999, LISA: the Painful, Read Dead Redemption 2 (probably the only R* game with writing I'd describe as "great," honestly), and Disco Elysium.
>>743267427Hmm yes
For me, the best writing in vidya are:Alpha CentauriPlanescapeVagrant Story
>>743271571got any others? NTA but I've already played all of those and while I enjoyed them I want something else to chew on
>>743268214If you read "Library of Babel," you've technically read every book written and every book possible to write.
>>743274237The way Alpha Centauri built such a weird and frankly depressing world together with just flavor text was great.
>>743270005This was true in the 80's maybe. Now it's just a stupid thing to say if you look at the kind of experiences games have to offer. I mean just look at something like Half-Life, or any of the Telltale games or whatever
>>743274289Have you played Star Control II? Its writing generally leads absurd and comedic, but it has my favorite some of my favorite alien species in any medium.
Def Jam: Fight for New YorkBear with me on this. If you were willing to accept the premise for what it was, the game's story was absolutely a tight-knit and competent piece of video game writing. It was a game with a story mode made entirely with the goal of allowing the player to make a character that could fit seamlessly into a roster of rappers, and the story itself takes these rappers and gives them highly fictionalized but cohesive characters across a broader drama. The story itself explores the themes of loyalty, betrayal, and the corporate corruption of power and authority in the same breath it has a dude crudely say he's going to rip off someone's tongue to wipe his "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaass wid it" along with a wholly optional secret fight that carries with it all the gravitas and baggage of the student surpassing the mentor against the mentor's desires.I've said this for years and this is not a bit. I absolutely maintain that a retarded game about rappers beating each other up in a comic book aesthetic is legitimately an example of fantastic game design and game writing.
>>743270339
Here are some well written games, feel free to disagree with me and come to my house to kill me and my family including my infant son:>Max Payne 2: The Fall Of Max Payne>Mass Effect 1>Witcher trilogy>Disco Elysium>First 2/3rds of Pentiment>Fallout: New Vegas (excluding DLC)>System Shock 1 & 2>Marathon 1 & 2 (didn't play 3)>Halo 2>Devil May Cry 3>Read Dead Redemption 2>Doom 2016>Half-Life series>Dark Souls>VTM Bloodlines>Pathologic>Star Wars: KOTOR 2
>>743275075Not that guy, but the little intro when you bring the dynarri to the Kohr Ah has stuck in my mind since they day I first heard it.https://youtu.be/pjJOu-VyDY8I also really like the speech for the Yehat revolution, but that's a bit more cheesy, even if it is incredible.
>>743267427This is an intellectual circlejerk. There is no game with "good writing" just like there's no book with "good writing". Your opinion on the writing is subjective. There is no objective scale to grade writing or art.Your opinion, or anyone's opinion, is completely meaningless when it comes to someone's subjective enjoyment of the writing and expression therein.What books you'd consider good, what taste you have, what experience has tailored you to enjoy has not given you an objective lens when art and enjoyment of art is a subjective experience.Like what you like, stop letting some pseudo "intellectual" loser tell you what is worthy of being considered good and just enjoy what you enjoy.
>>743267427Not even fucking close. Loved that game, someone took all the dialogue snd made a book, it was awful. Just awful.Games can be very good, but no where close to a book.
>>743276248>no where close to a bookThen go read a book you pedantic loser
>>743276169The problem with this absolute relativism is that it ignores the fact that certain works are praised almost unanimously, recognized as masterpieces even by those who don't personally enjoy them. Personally, not to attack your position, but just as a personal pet peeve, it has always bothered me to hear this argument while academia, more or less subtly, constructs hierarchies.
>>743268214The Adventures of Captain UnderpantsCaptain Underpants and the Attack of the Talking Toilets Captain Underpants and the Invasion of the Incredibly Naughty Cafeteria Ladies from Outer Space (and the Subsequent Assault of the Equally Evil Lunchroom Zombie Nerds)Captain Underpants and the Perilous Plot of Professor PoopypantsCaptain Underpants and the Wrath of the Wicked Wedgie WomanCaptain Underpants and the Big, Bad Battle of the Bionic Booger Boy Part 1: The Night of the Nasty Nostril NuggetsCaptain Underpants and the Big, Bad Battle of the Bionic Booger Boy Part 2: The Revenge of the Ridiculous Robo-BoogersCaptain Underpants and the Preposterous Plight of the Purple Potty PeopleCaptain Underpants and the Terrifying Return of Tippy TinkletrousersCaptain Underpants and the Revolting Revenge of the Radioactive Robo-Boxers
>>743275673>Here are some well written games, feel free to disagree with me >>Max Payne 2: The Fall Of Max PayneMP2 is such a cut above 1 in terms of writing (and gameplay), I don't even know why people laud it so much. 1 is still great but it has some pretty weak stuff in it (like how it completely glosses over Max's undercover career and how it handles BB who disappears for like most of the game before coming back again)
>>743276169This is such a pointless discussion killing reply. Yes obviously it is subjective, doesn't mean we can't talk about it. OP never even claimed or implied it wasn't subjective in the first place.
>>743276248Which book? There are several, and the first one is recognized as a disaster
>>743267427Literacy is a Jewish plot you faggot.
>>743276364The hierarchy, the popularity, has absolutely ZERO baring on a subjective experience. Just because academia, critics, and reviews exist does not make any of them more right than someone else's opinion.In your own response, "almost unanimously", yet not a single piece of art, book, film, picture, ANYTHING is unanimously praised. There are always those that dislike it. You would have to somehow come up with criteria that somehow makes the people that dislike the thing you like less worthy than your own. When you are talking about subjective art and unique experience and taste, you cannot come up with criteria that will fit.For every rule, there will be an exception. Just because hierarchy form in certain groups does not make it universal. It's a foolish argument and attempts to sort and measure something that cannot be objectively ranked.
>>743276493It is important because it is losers talking about what is "good" in a subjective realm like writing and art. It's a pointless, brainless, self-masturbatory declaration.
>>743276615better thank them for bestowing unto you your favorite hobby of being a good lil chud on 4channel.org
>>743270414that's the opposite of what he said you mouthbreathing dipshit. his whole point is that literary culture is culminative and collectively it has been improved and standardised over 1000s of years. so modern storytellers DO tell better stories BECAUSE they're standing on the shoulders of giants who paved the way. it's the same for music. all the faggy hipster garbage you listen to only exists because the classical composers put the effort in. you stupid ugly cunt.
>>743276154>For the first time in our lives.>For the first time in generations.>...We fear.It's just such an evocative line, especially in the context of what kind of species the Kohr-Ah are.
>>743276472Sam Lake went to writing classes inbetween the first and second game and it really shows.I still love 1 though and I don't think it is a poorly written game at all, it has a LOT of charm but it definitely feels more amateurish and action movie, but the Sam Lake elements that make later Remedy games so good are already there.
Oh you've "read" the "classic" "literature" ??Faggot. Stupid pretentious FAGGOT.
>>743276248>The adaption is bad, therefore the original is shit.No.
>>743276679>It's a pointless, brainless, self-masturbatory declaration.Yeah that's just your SUBJECTIVE opinion anon. Lets keep this objective shall we. So instead of talking about the quality of the writing, lets count the amount of words, or something else that's tangible and objective. Gonna make for a riveting discussion I bet
>>743275673for me its >thief series>stasis series except Cayne we don’t talk about that one>esoteric ebb>raging loop>saya no uta>tyranny had its moments
>>743276625>>743276679The more knowledgeable you are about a certain type of media, the more weight your opinion has. When lots of different knowledgeable people reach similar conclusions about the quality of a work, then that's as close as you get to an objective scale.It's not absolute, of course, there's still room for disagreement. It doesn't need to be absolute, it just needs to provide some common ground and some points of comparison, so that other works can be discussed. Otherwise you would not be able to ever talk about anything.What would the alternative be? Treat every single thing that has some level of subjectivity as completely random noise? Because that's basically what you're proposing, and we know that's not how it works.
>>743267427I like what I like and don't like what I don't like. I don't give a shit if it's technically "good" writing according to /v/ by way of /lit/ tourists. If it's fun, followable, and takes me for an enjoyable ride, that's the critieria that matters.Nebula has best game writing awards. When you look at the winners, you lose faith in the award. TGA's have best narrative. Look at those winners, and it's clearly pay to play like the rest of it. WGA used to have them, and they were just The Sony Circlejerk Awards, etc.So who gives a shit if it's "good for videogame standards", or "good by classic literature of human existence" standards, or even "good by slop you buy in a quarterbook in the supermarket checkout" standards. Fun is fun, and fuck every other criteria.
>>743277007Or you could stop be a pedantic loser and talk about what you like instead of pretending your preference towards classical writing makes your opinion on what is "good" important you fucking loser.
>>743276839>t. Illiterate mouthbreather
>>743277054I tried playing Tyranny but the world felt kinda lame and the combat seemed lame too. I didn't get past the very first area though, I just got bad vibes from the 2 seconds of combat and dialogue I saw. Am I wrong?
Modern videogame writing should not be compared to standard novels like "The Lord of the Rings" or "The Brothers Karamazov," because those are stories entirely designed for the medium.They should be compared to experimental literature like "The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman" and "House of Leaves" instead, because those are stories that play with the medium and, on at least some level, demand greater interaction and engagement from their reader than a standard book does.
>>743277342Well maybe when I say something has good writing, perhaps the implication there is that I like it for my personal subjective reasons anon. I don't even read books dude. I just got annoyed by your pointless argueing over semantics
Games can have neat or novel stories, and sometimes can be decent loredumps but as a full coherent story they are usually somewhat lacking and tend to lack literary merit. Its not really what the mediums strength is though
>>743277275>The more knowledgeable you are about a certain type of media, the more weight your opinion has.Wrong. It makes you more aware of things you enjoy and do not enjoy. That does not make you an authority on the enjoyment that anyone else will have.> it just needs to provide some common ground and some points of comparisonCorrect, you can express what you liked and other things you liked, but that does not make what you liked "good".>What would the alternative be?Incredibly simple. Talk about things from your own subjective opinion, say I liked this, or I thought this game was good and here are games that I also enjoyed. You cannot claim authority beyond your own opinion. You cannot point to anything objectively good, because there will always be people that do not agree. Champion your own opinion and your own taste, you have no authority beyond that. No level of consumption in your own palette will give you objective authority on what can be considered good by anyone else when it comes to something subjective like art.
>>743277275Yes, what you are describing is not objectivity, but intersubjectivity, which is perhaps the most defensible and useful criterion
>>743277348probably not, i was interested in it because i liked the idea of a bronze age fantasy rpg (plus i was already reading a dark sun book at the time) if your not into it in the first few mins your probably not going to like the game.
>>743276839just a fair warning: if you call me faggot again i will probably cum
>>743267427>/lit/ thread on /v/kino
Vidyas cool but it just doesnt hit the same
>>743277531>It makes you more aware of things you enjoy and do not enjoy.People aren't as unique as you seem to think. They don't each have a completely unknowable set of preferences that makes it so it's impossible to draw any conclusions from external sources. Sure, maybe you like certain types of stories and not others, but within that vicinity, you're probably going to like the same ones people who also like that kind of story will. And someone with more knowledge than you that happens to be close to you in taste will have not an authority, but a higher accuracy. I'm not saying this gives anyone else the right to declare something as "objectively good". No, these people are still expressing their subjective opinions. But when a lot of people who enjoy and have read a lot of a certain type of story all claim a certain one is good, then the likelihood that a new reader of it will also enjoy it is pretty high. Not guaranteed, but high. That makes said story "good".
>>743276169There is no game with "good gameplay". You can't prove this wrong.
Is planescape torment fun to play? Had 0 patience when i was a teen so i could't get into Wrpgs, but maybe now if its not dogshit might be a fun experience, same with BG1/2 and FO1/2
>>743276370My apologies professor.
>>743278681It doesn't have good gameplay but the story is really good. It handsdown has the best CRPG story by miles.
>>743278502>People aren't as unique as you seem to think.Depends on what you consider unique, each of us has our own experience which is unique.>Not guaranteed, but high. That makes said story "good".No, you were so close to being coherent and yet in your own words you have to once again admit that no amount of your personal enjoyment, no matter how tailored and wide it is, can predict what someone will find good.You keep bumping up against the truth that subjective experience begets a subjective palette and taste. You could find someone that likes the same things as you, but you will disagree on why you enjoyed them, you could disagree on characters within.>And someone with more knowledge than you that happens to be close to you in taste will have not an authority, but a higher accuracy.This is where you're right but also completely wrong. Could it make you better at recommending something to someone with similar taste? Absolutely! Does that mean what you like is now universally good? No.If you would say people are not unique, then it would make sense why you would find there to be things that are close to an objective good, but you are completely wrong in that, because every single person has a unique experience in life, every single person has a unique taste because it is their taste. Why someone likes what you like could be for completely different reasons, they could both love the same game you love, yet view characters completely differently.Your ability to find people that have a similar taste to you and tend to like the same things does not make you closer to finding an objective good. Knowledge is not the applicable term here because there is nothing you need to know when it comes to subjective enjoyment.
>>743268429>also death strandingI like DS but I don't see your reasoning.
>>743278647Correct, there's only games with gameplay that you find good and that I find good, we don't have to agree for both of these things to be true.
>>743270381>>but disc 2On replays, you realize some of the best parts of the game are here.
>>743279154this is objectively untrue but I don't really feel like explaining it
>>743279253Because you can't. There is no objectively good game. It's all subjective because experience and enjoyment is subjective based on a unique experience and preference.
>>743268439No, Monkey Island was the first well-written game.
>>743279342there are certain more or less universal rules within genres. players prefer games that control well universally so long as that statement is actually true
>>743279780NTA but "good" gameplay is a value judgement. And even in your example I've seen people say they miss the unique ways 3d games controlled in the 5th and 6th Gen as it has gotten extremely standardized to the universal "good" standards, and the cost of unique feel
>>743270168>NTRNah.
>>743279780That is a truly remarkable statement.In 2026, in a world with tens of thousands of games available to play, how many do you think sort by "controls well" as their reasoning to find a game good or bad? Some sure, absolutely, you might be one of them.One of them. Once again, what someone finds as "good" controls is subjective, for some, maybe controls they find smooth is all that's necessary to find a game good, that's great for them.Once again that's subjective, not objective.I feel like we need to go back to the /v/ classic Fact or Opinion
>>743279443>cartoon>well writenlollmao
>>743280036people can have differing opinions or preferences for controls but they will map together and there will be lots of universals among all sorts of people that are considered bad or good >>743280121
>>743280121a game controlling good or bad isn't up for debate, a lot of ps1 games control like shit and lack QoL making them a chore to play
>>743279342>Arguing for post-modernist Lutheran " just livin' muh truth" bsPost modernism is a dead horse, you don't need glasses or anything explanation; just take a look at society and how its decayed.
>>743267427The reality is not that video game writing is good but that "classic literature" is secretly dogshit and always has been
>>743280389>t. hasn't read a single book
>>743280297It absolutely is up for debate, because there is no universal correct answer. Some people find what you would consider bad as good, i.e. tank controls.>>743280251There being commonality does not create a universal good. They will not map together because some elements of what someone finds good are incompatible with other elements that people find good. Just taking what's in common does not create something objectively better than the sum of it's parts.
>>743280481not strictly universal, no, but you get to a point where most people who look for the same genre specific gameplay elements can generally agree about what's good, with massive disagreement between various camps of preferences What's not true is "good" has no meaning because anyone could think anything is good. Once you say that's genuinely how you feel about everything why even continue having any sort of discussion about quality?
>>743280305You said absolutely nothing with this response. You can participate in the conversation if you'd like.>just take a look at society and how its decayedYou are having to enter a realm of implications that things were better, then I'd have to explain to you what things are objectively better, how art and expression are different from objective things like medical advancements and access to information and technology and the nuance there...Or you could just say something instead of vagueposting and pretending it's an opinion.
>>743280653I'm arguing objective truth, you're arguing schizo-tier "I create my own reality" because post-modernist thought allows you to always be right by conflating opinion as truth, until the point you're not right any more, at which point you become right again by shifting your opinion. Orwell kindly explained this in its simplest terms for the 20th century retards but little did he know what idiocy was to come. There's nothing more to explain beyond that, explain your point in it's absolute simplest terms or fuck off.
>>743267427Writing doesn't matter and doesn't make for good art, or even art at all.
>>743280548Just because someone could find anything as good does not mean popularity doesn't exist, it means that any claiming that this thing is good and this thing is bad is utterly meaningless.What is "good" has immense meaning when you speak from your own experience and enjoyment, because it's the only one you can speak from. When it devolves into meaningless conversation is when people try to declare things like classic literature as a bar that modern gaming can't reach, when classic literature is not a bar of what is good.It can be true about everything and anything in art, that's why we have different genres and different types of games in the first place. If there were no elements of a game that someone didn't like, there'd be no reason to create a game in a different way. There'd be no demand for something else.There is beauty in the different opinions, the different opinions are what make things that you find good possible. So celebrate what you enjoy and find good, bickering over what is good in something subjective like games and writing and art is meaningless because it will have a different destination for everyone.
>>743280818Explain the objective standards for game quality
>>743267427Games have evolved enough that good writing is borderline essential for certain types of games to work. Nobody would be still talking about Witcher 3 or The Last of Us years later if those games didnt have well written characters and moments. But I think the real strength that videogames have in relation to other types of media is the interactivity. Movies and TV shows cannot relate to playing as Sara in the prologue to TLoU and then watching her die in a cutscene moments later. You played as her, controlled her, saw what she saw as she saw it. Thats deeper than just writing.
>>743275673>>Marathon 1 & 2 (didn't play 3)3 is on par with 2, maybe even better, and while 1 has its moments, I actually think it's kinda stupid and simplistic in comparison (Tycho's writing in particular is awful) but is important to establish everythingI guess what I mean to say is that ur'e gey lmao
>>743280818If you can't follow what I'm saying then you need to stop spouting terms that you don't understand and referencing people that you don't understand. You are parroting an opinion of others while expressing none of their own. This is not "create my own reality". This is realizing that your taste and preference is subjective to your own experience and when it comes to taste and preference in something like writing, there cannot be an objective good.Again, you are not really saying anything, you're quoting terms and people without engaging with what I've actually said or saying actual things.
>>743280908>>743281010my taste and preference leans towards fantasy rpgs, but I wouldn't say fantasy rpgs are "better" than fps games or mobas or whatever. What I would say is that within fantasy rpg games (and that's a wide term) there are objective metrics of quality, one of which would be quality of writing >bbbut subjectiveIt really isn't that subjective. All time classic works of literature, for instance, are what they are because of recognized quality which has always been recognized, in some cases for millennia,or centuries, or decades.
>>743281010No I understand perfectly what you're saying, but it's a boring argument and your argument should evolve, which you're not willing or able to do. Which is fine, I'm sure you had a great time in undergrad.
Regarding the gameplay discussion itt, I’d like to spice things up a bit: a certain school of thought doesn't value art based on how convenient it is to experience, but on its integrity. If a developer creates deliberately frustrating gameplay to amplify the game's themes, that's a defensible position.
A lot of people are providing answers with kids stories, so I think it's appropriate to ask: how do people feel about The Giving Tree?
>>743281164>It really isn't that subjective.No amount of you saying that changes the fact that it is.>All time classic works of literature, for instance, are what they are because of recognized quality which has always been recognized, in some cases for millennia,or centuries, or decades.By people with subjective opinions. They are what they are because they have stood the test of time and have been culturally relevant for a long amount of time. That does not make them better or worse than anything existing. That does not make them good because you can remember them. What was found as quality years ago might not resonate with people now. It quite literally is subjective, each person that likes them has a subjective opinion. Just because something is well known, doesn't mean it's the greatest book. It means it's culturally relevant which could mean quality to some, cultural influence, historical influence, inspiration... a myriad of things, boiling it down to "recognized quality" is too broad and simplistic a term.
>>743281378>They are what they are because they have stood the test of time and have been culturally relevant for a long amount of time.Because of their quality >That does not make them better or worse than anything existing. What makes them better, typically, is their insight and thoroughness and humour and all sorts of other human qualities that came through in their writing. >but if i write a dog sat 6 million times that's subjectively just as valu...no it isn't
>>743281198You aren't capable of engaging with the discussion, I've been responding to several people here, but you are the only person here that seems incapable of offering up anything to generate conversation outside of petty insults.
>>743281378Your subjective opinion is shaped by every single influence from teachers to parents, friends to media. Your subjective truth is not even your own truth at all, because it's predominantly the culmination of every external force that's touched your life. If you can accept your opinions are meaningless and have no value because theya re predominantly not your own to begin with, then you're pretty much only left with searching for the objective truth.
>>743281472>"My opinions matter to me!"Ok, so what?
>>743281458>Because of their quality Again, it's too simplistic a term. The Bible is not culturally relevant because it is simply "quality" it started massive religious and historical movements. It inspired schools of thoughts and thinking. Some people that disagree with the religion will still find the book historically relevant, Mein Kampf is relevant, but not because of the prose or philosophical merit. Quality is too blanket a term.>What makes them better, typically, is their insight and thoroughness and humour and all sorts of other human qualities that came through in their writing. Humor is subjective, insight is by it's very nature subjective because it's the observations of a subjective perspective expressed outwardly. We share a commonality in being human, we have art because of the subjective and unique experience therein. Not everyone laughs at the same joke, yet we all are capable of laughing. Humor is enjoyable, yet there's no style of humor that is universal. It's subjective.
>>743281553anyone whose self-reflected knows this, and every thinkers goal is to find objective truth in their thoughts beliefs and actions, what benefits themselves and others the mostbecause just saying>it's all subjective, nothing matters, it's all spooksdoesn't help anyone
Valhalla Dancehall on occasion is reminiscent of he
planescape is a game for midwits. it has some legitimately good ideas, but rejects developing them all in favor of making inane statements about the fantasy setting. it's like trying to discuss moral philosophy with someone using a harry potter analogy, but the guy just wants to talk about plot points from the book and doesn't understand what you were trying to explain at all.
>>743281553It's your own experience, the only thing you can know is your own choice and awareness of it, we surmised this with cogito ergo sum with Decartes, you can doubt everything about this life, but there is a self and you are aware of yourself.You are shaped, but you are not them. You share experience, but even in every opinion and experience you share with family, teachers, friends, media, your experience within is unique to you. You are not their experience, you are a self aware that it happened, what you choose to do with that is up to you. Your opinions are not meaningless, to others, possibly, but to yourself, it's the most important. If you were just the outcome of everything you've experienced, there is not point to cognition and awareness. You'd just be the result of everything that's happened to you.>>743281610So what? Your opinions are the only person that they possibly can matter to. That's the beauty of the human experience.
Some vidyas may have great writting, but has will any vidya ever top pic related in terms of it's masterful prose, plot and social commentary?
>>743281645but the bible is also quality, extremely high quality to the extent that the entirety of Western literature is based largely on it >subjective I know you're going to scream "authority fallacy" at this, but since humans have been writing they've been addressing things like how to live your life, what meaning life has, what value things have intrinsically, etc, and very few of them came to the conclusion you have. Plato totally disagrees with you. Kant's categorical imperative isn't >you should do whatever you want because everything is subjective why not?
>>743267427>I've read enough of the greats of classic literaturePeak midwit thinking. Stopped reading.
>>743282008>but the bible is also qualityHEAVILY depends on the author and translation tbqhwyf
>>743281865>So what? Your opinions are the only person that they possibly can matter to.This is just completely not true. Why do you think people read philosophy or study religion? What do you think they're studying besides the opinions and thoughts of other people? Fiction too, same thing.
>>743281779>every thinkers goal is to find objective truth in their thoughts beliefs and actionsNo. This is so insanely wrong it makes me wonder if you're old enough to be on this website.It's to find the purpose of self in a world that does not belong to you and you are not the author of, yet you are given awareness in an infinitely complex and nuanced world that possesses universal laws. The idea of why cognition exists at all, why there is a reality for these laws to even exist, where it all came from. To boil it down to finding objective truths in a world where many of the greatest thinkers found there is none and pondered still is truly childish.>it's all subjective, nothing mattersIt's all subjective, so it all matters, because what you do can affect someone's life in a way that changes their entire trajectory in life. You never know what your subjective life might subjectively look to someone else, what you might inspire, what you might encourage, what you represent to people that you will never know or acknowledge. It is in taking responsibility that your actions will be viewed by everyone around you, that you will impact others in ways that you cannot control in their own subjective lives that you find ways to live that are detrimental to others, ways that harm, ways that hurt, so pondering your own thoughts and actions and how you move through a world that will view your actions from your subjective experience is a large portion of many of the "thinkers" roles that you likely quote toiled over their entire lives.
>>743268526>The Lord of the Rings>literature classic
>>743282050The translation used as the foundation for Western Literature was the KVJ, as far as literary relevance goes, that's the only version to consider most of the time
>>743282091>It's to find the purpose of self in a world that does not belong to you and you are not the author of, yet you are given awareness in an infinitely complex and nuanced world that possesses universal laws.that's a pretty objective sounding disagreement and statement bud
>>743282091>It's all subjective, so it all mattersBASED
>>743281834>plot in this fantasy setting is too fantastical and inapplicable to reality, where is muh human universal condition?that sure is an opinion huhif anything, i greatly appreciate unreal reasoning for unreal worlds, because the alternative means everything magical does not inform the characters, and the story veers into some trite didacticismsee also: sour grapes of immortality
>>743282008>Plato totally disagrees with youSo? Is Plato somehow an authority? Martin Luther didn't believe in free will, Socrates thought himself arrogant and stupid. Plato thought the world was an illusion.>you should do whatever you want because everything is subjective You've taken me talking about subjective experience in video games to somehow mean subjective right and wrong beyond art and expression. You've taken my opinions on something that is subjective, art and video games, and you're now shoeing it into thoughts on human morality. These are not the same thing.
>>743282091if that where the case then why do philosophers and thinkers put their ideas forward in an objective lens? why do they accept their ideologies and ideas for themselves? why are they not constantly shifting and changing their beliefs? how could we have communism and national socialism? how could we have the republic? how would we have nations with their own political structures and identities? thinkers exist to try and create objective meaning out of nothing, and rulers and leaders take those and implement them and the run-off bleeds into the lives of the people below them who don't think any higher.
Good writing isn't an inherent quality that's tied to the skill of the author. What's really important is what you get out of said writing. To quote an actual classic writer, there is three important questions:1. What was the artist trying to do? 2. How well did the artist do it?3. Was it worth doing? I can tell that Planescape Torment is pseud garbage (without even reading it myself) since I never see people talking about it in any meaningful manner, it's always posers talking about how it's le deep, without actually discussing its themes or characters in any depth.
>>743282048>Stopped readingyeah, in middle schooleverybody can see that
>>743282267>and you're now shoeing it into thoughts on human morality.I would love to hear how you can get totally subjective artistic preferences and totally objective moral ones.
>>743282340I have a BA in literature.
>>743282361my condolences
>>743282147>that's a pretty objective sounding disagreement and statement budYou're trying to extend my thoughts on the subjective enjoyment of art and media to mean that there is not objectivity in the human experience and morality, which is a completely different discussion. I would absolutely argue in some things in morality that there is objective things like good and evil, kitten should not be tortured, children should not be enslaved, these are not subjective things, but that's not a discussion you're trying to have, you're just trying to have a gotcha moment by taking opinions about subjective things like art and superimposing them to greater implications.
>>743282390>I would absolutely argue in some things in morality that there is objective things like good and evil, kitten should not be tortured, children should not be enslaved, these are not subjective thingsAny argument you could possibly use to defend objective morality would apply to objective qualities of art and meaning as well
>>743268214I used to think classic lit was kinda bad. Then I learned that, like most mediums, the best stuff is always fairly obscure. Eventually you realize that the more famous something is the higher rating it will get and rating often just means popularity, even for things that are considered to only be read by academic types. And in contrast the more complex and or unique something is the more obscure/poorly rated it is. Which leads me to pic related which is a bunch of books from indie publishers that specialize in translating lesser known works from the fin de siecle that have never been translated Wakefield PressDedalus Books UKSnuggly BooksAnd there are well written games, duh. Idk how that was ever in contention for anyone that's not retarded
>>743282390NTA but I am the anon who wrote the thinkers turn subjective thoughts into objective reality, forgive me, I wasn't aware this was about art. And frankly I feel like the discussion on what is and isn't art is a bit pointless, but how would you argue in favor of the artistic credibility of something like super mario over planescape torment? I know it's subjective but surely you think one is considered to be valued more as art?
>>743276169You need to methods to measure quality yourself, and that is based on a real objective context. Examples:Don Quixote has good writing in that it's an highly detailed portrait of Spain during its Golden Age (after the Jews were expelled), that discusses many issues including social class, honor, injustice, religion and ancient mythology through the lens of Christian humanism.The Demons has good writing in that it explores the foolishness of Russian men who have become possessed by European ideas of the Age of Enlightenment, which ultimately don't fit the Russian spirit and just create chaos and nihilism, as seen through Russian history.
>>743282386What did you study or work at?
>>743282583and lots of other reasons, but ya this is all true
>>743268526>Steins;gate>classiclmao
>>743282356Your opinion on which Stellar Blade girl is hotter is subjective, it affects just you.Moral objectivity would be me saying that you shouldn't be able to kill someone over their opinion on which Stellar Blade girl is hotter. Saying that children shouldn't be enslaved. That cats shouldn't be tortured for fun, that's objective morality. If you disagree with these, you fundamentally believe people can do harm to others as long as they want to. That one self matters more than another's self.>>743282301Because you may believe that everyone should have the right to housing, to safety, to food. That children should have safety, food, nurturing parents. That pets should be cared for.When the thought leaves the self, it isn't always embodied as purely. A strong example is Jesus of Nazareth, he's a guy that wasn't impressed with theological knowledge, he cared more about the person stopping to care for someone that had nothing to give in return. He didn't care about religious title or if you called him god what you believed, he cared what you did.From that spawned a religion that cares deeply about ritual, about saying the sinner's prayer, about belief, about praising god, when the man they call god in his own book would not smile at this performance when there are hungry people, homeless people.You can't just say "philosophers and thinkers" and expect me to be able to blanket a statement that covers all of them so I can only give a popular example.Also I'm trying to respond to several people, I've been doing this for an hour at this point. I'm going to go enjoy some vidya.
>>743267427>good writing>dialogue "choices"incompatible
>>743282246yes when you ignore actually intelligent ideas to say "dude what if the lawful character was chaotic?" and "dude what if everyone imagined a seed was a tree and it actually started growing?" you are creating inane babble and not anything of value.
>>743282520>how would you argue in favor of the artistic credibility of something like super mario over planescape torment?Super Mario Bros. is an immediate kinaesthetic experience. You power up the NES and you immeditately see an explosion of color and sound coming from the screen, yet the character doesn't move. You have to move it, after which you yourself become Mario trapped in a world of pure fantasy, similar to Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass, but the stakes of life and death are real, unlike in the novel, if you make a mistake you die and have to start over.Meanwhile in Planescape: Torment you install the game slowly through 4 fucking discs, install arcane drivers in a poorly coded OS. Eventually you start the game and watch a poorly rendered cinematic, then do inane stat crunching and finally you start reading walls of text in a medium utterly inadequate for so much reading, often punctuated by shitty combat encounters. The main good qualities are the art and music which portray a bizarre world of dark fantasy. There is also quicksaves so the gameplay stakes are non-existent.
>>743282740>Moral objectivity would be me saying that you shouldn't be able to kill someone over their opinion on which Stellar Blade girl is hotter. Saying that children shouldn't be enslaved. That cats shouldn't be tortured for fun, that's objective morality. If you disagree with these, you fundamentally believe people can do harm to others as long as they want to. That one self matters more than another's self.what are you appealing to when you say this is objective morality? who/what makes it wrong when someone transgresses these moral lines you believe in for their own gain? >which girl is hotter>subjectiveto some extent but in general this question has a lot to do with many different very objective qualities that inform interpersonal attraction
OP used the word "whilst", that's how you know he reads books and is a very cultured person.
>>743276169It's entirely possible for a work to have objective flaws, on the grounds that "some people may not notice this thing, but many will dislike it, and nobody actively enjoys the work because of it".For example, plot holes in serious stories. Many people may not notice or care, but some will, and nobody will cite it as a good thing, so its inclusion purely reduces the amount of people who will enjoy the work.>but what about "so bad it's good"!Doesn't change the fact that it's a flaw, in that case one starts deriving enjoyment from how much of a flaw the thing is. There's a lot of pedantic nitpicking that can be done about it but humor in general is actually, genuinely subjective anyway.
>>743282968the more I read the more I type like a retard
At minimum you need to read:>The Gathas of Zarathushtra: Hymns in Praise of Wisdom>The Egyptian Book of the Dead: The Book of Going Forth by Day: Being the Papyrus of Ani (Royal Scribe of the Divine Offerings)>Tattvartha Sutra: That Which Is>The Analects of Confucius>The Dhammapada>The Bhagavad Gita>King James Bible (Archaic Edition)>Paradise Lost>Chaldean Account of Genesis (Epic of Gilgamesh)>Le Morte D’Arthur>Poetic and Prose Eddas>PhaedoOnly then can you graduate to understanding the intellectual subtleties of works like Wheel of Time and the Cosmere. The Cosmere is like the MCU of literature, so you don’t really “need” any books besides ones needed to understand the Cosmere.Now direct your browser to Thriftbooks and start your /lit/ journey to reach the peaks of Brandon SanderGOD.
>>743283313t. Luciferian Freemason
>>743283313What are the Brandon Sanderson books even about? I thought they were just YA written by a mormon.
>>743267427The medium of vidya has a few truly unique ways to tell stories, but so few games make use of that and what a shame it is. I want to see mechanics and narrative work as a tag team, providing reactivity for various ways player can engage with the whole thing. But between the sheer number of assets required, system interactions that need to actually function, and a plot that will not immediately go to shit the moment player goes off-script; I fear that digital gamebooks is about as sophisticated as such games are ever gonna get. And I do enjoy those pulpy adventures like Sorcery and Roadwarden, but there is something lost when player is not directly interfacing with the character.
>>743269360Games with good writing usually pair with other good aspects like music and design (Disco Elysium), or the RPG mechanics and character fantasy of something like BG or Planescape. Few games exist solely as a vehicle for the "good writing", except for text games and CYOA. Sometimes good writing itself is enjoyable if it really engages you, just like a book, so it depends. Anyway,>new content mastered by professionals on streaming servicesLol, lmfao even. There's maybe 1 good show or movie per every 20 pieces of slop made by someone with no eye for lighting or directing.
>>743270610I think to that end, even comparing books within the last 50 years just like video games you end up with a lot of equivalent or worse dogshit with a few standouts. I would say this is maybe more telling that quality of writing in general has gone down and continues to go down.
>>743283720I think a lot of it is because of a lack of creativity. Something like Needy Streamer Overload is more interesting as interactive fiction than most VNs and point and click RPGs.
>>743283491elaborate magic systems and what if situations.
>>743267427My issue is that nearly all games don't take advantage of the medium's unique features and the story being told would be better off in any other medium.
does anyone have that screencap of someone on /lit/ complaining that he read a bunch of recommended books but they were all about a guy getting cucked?
>>743267427I dropped it because I got tired of the gameplay of entering the room and having a 30-minute dialogue dump from every random person in a bar.I controversially still hold the opinion that Silent Hill 2 is the best written game of all time, even though I've played all sorts of CRPGs. The reason why is that the full letter read near the end has such a multifaceted meaning depending on your actions in the game, which also determine the ending. Even though it's short, I just feel that little flourish at the end is the peak of writing in gaming in that incorporates player interaction rather than just throwing a book at you. The performance (in the original) of "you made me happy" can be equally interpreted as betraying her, or her begging you to forgive yourself. It's kino.
>>743275673>VtM:BUnironically, I think the writing is a solid 7 when you ignore the quality of the dialogue. The dialogue is maybe some of the best ever put to video games but the writing itself isn't nearly as good.>>743277054Great fan of Ebb. Tyranny I can agree had it's moments but at the same rate it feels like Obsidian tried its hardest to hold it back.>>743277348From my opinion, the actual setting and the locations are very cool shit and the combat is a decent power fantasy if you do the lore + spellcasting exploit to throw out 15 second cooldown lightning bolts that deal 80 damage, but otherwise it's an even worse and more restrictive isometric RPG. The world gets better when you get into shit like the resistance in the prologue or Kyros or the magic slavery going on and the Judge Dredd program the empire has. It's simultaneously kino and enraging because there are snippers in there of a 8+ game but there's so much cut content and lack of refinement in the last third of the game that it makes you question why you even started it.>tl;drTyranny is good but frustrating
>>743284060PS:T and its successors are more like books you interact with than actual vidya, so I can't really disagree with your opinion.
>>743282307PS:T threads focus enough about what happens in the game itself though and how the themes and the characters interact, as well as the setting. It's important to remember that PS:T was both the video game itself and an introduction into the setting of Sigil / Planescape for DnD.
>>743284060>controversially still hold the opinion that Silent Hill 2 is the best written game of all time, even though I've played all sorts of CRPGsSilent Hill 2 is amazing at creating an unique horror mood and it has very sparse dialogue and cutscenes, it's mostly exploring empty buildings filled with creepy dudes. But the spooky visuals and eerie music work really well. Most CRPGs are unfocused and try to do too many things at the same time, they become mediocre management games tied with with convoluted visual novels and complex strategy games. You would need to discard elements and focus on a few strong features to get a really good experience. 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim did it very well, but that's not even a RPG.
>>743282462>like most mediums, the best stuff is always fairly obscure.Holy midwit!
>>743284269I can check threads on the archives, there is almost nothing of substance being discussed ever.
One thing that is actually underrated about Torment is the combat gameplay, and I can see why Avellone regrets there isn't more of it. They've put a lot of effort into fitting items into the setting with these lil' charms and clots and shit and also making them be attainable in a setting-coherent way. The best thing they did is actually making your protag be unkillable so that you'd rather tank a hit than your companions so you just resurrect instead of quickload or other shit and then by the end of the game it turns out that whenever you died, another soul took your place and you're like "yeah guess i fucked it, send me to hell". Also introducing ways to actually be killed forever like angering the Lady or slitting yourself with that blade. The touches are nice.
>>743276370Nice
>>743284446NTA but it is kinda true that the best stuff will have moderate success mostly and some lucky basic thing made to appeal to the lowest common denominator will have massive popularity just due to lucking out. Thats why to find actual gems you have to put in a bit of effort. Nostalgia is also one of these things that makes it hard to find anything old thats great.
>>743267427>I'm smart because I read an alcoholic artfag's story You won't get any validation here. Keep begging, pseud.
>>743270610>NO FUCKING SHIT the cream of the crop of a medium that's been around for thousands of years is going to beat out the average output of a medium that's been around for 50 years.He's not claiming that, he's saying:>no video game has reached the heights of what 1000s of years of human storytelling has producedHe's comparing all videogames to the heights of literature and saying none of them have reached that level.And your argument doesn't really work here.First off, game writing isn’t a separate, alien form of storytelling. It uses the same tools. Modern game writers are not starting from zero; they inherit every technique, trope, and lesson from classical and modern literature, often with far better access than past writers did because books are very cheap nowadays, even free (especially if we're talking about classics).Second, technology has made the creative process objectively easier in many ways: word processors, collaboration tools, version control, scripting engines. These make drafting, editing, and revising a lot easier and free up time to be creative.Lastly (and this is basically population and economics), the sheer number of people now writing for games is vastly larger than the pool of classical fiction writers in almost any earlier era.
>>743268214Harry Potter 1-7 and Fantastic Beasts 1-3
>>743268376Everything is becoming shit. It is due to a mindset. Death of the Author is the worst thing to happen to creative writing.
>>743268376You didn't read the right books
>>743294558Sturgeon's law
>>743276472I remember not really enjoying 2 that much despite really liking it conceptually (A man who succeeded in his revenge and lives a nothing life on autopilot). I think I was just bitter 2 didn't have Sam Lake's face on Max, I'm sure if I gave it another chance I might see it differently. I really enjoyed 1 due to the whole nature of the game, it's one guy on a quest of revenge against impossible odds and he succeeds when he really shouldn't. Hell, by the end of the game you're gunning down helicopters and 10 guys one after the other while the antagonist screams over the comms how one fucking cop is fucking everything up. It's got some crappy moments like the dream sequences and how the early weapons are all kinda crap but I really did enjoy it by the end.
>>743282968OP here. It's true, I think of the word "whilst" as a word only for smart, cultured people, like myself.
>>743295840oops forgot to add that I'm also a homosexual.
>>743284308Honestly, the way I'd describe the best CRPG writing would be like a series of connected short stories. In New Vegas, for example, many of the SQs tell good, self-contained stories that still ultimately feed back into the MQ by giving you a better impression of the overall conflict.
>>743296332In retrospect, maybe I didn't need to say that. I am the OP, after all.
>>743288596As I've matured, I've found that the canon works in a field are usually canon for a reason. Though yes, there are certainly cases of idolatry, I also find that the most celebrated artists often reveal even more depths once you start to engage with them critically.
>>743268214War and PeaceAnna KareninaThe Good EarthThe Divine ComedyEast of EdenLes MiserablesCrime and PunishmentA Roadside PicnicHam On RyeThe 13 1/2 Lives of Captain Bluebear
>>743276767>that's the opposite of what he said>no video game has reached the heights of what 1000s of years of human storytelling has produced>>743284037PST wouldn't be better in any other medium because the interactivity of it is part of what makes it great.
>>743279109You're really gay and retarded.
>>743267427Anyone who tries to look cautiously intelligent by being overly critical is a coward.It's so easy to be critical or dismissive. It actually shows you can pay attention by demonstrating understanding of a narrative.
>>743279109>If you would say people are not uniqueThat's what I'm saying, yes. It's not that everyone is the same, but we aren't all unique special snowflakes that are all completely different from each other. We have different cluster, but within them we're very, very similar.>there is nothing you need to know when it comes to subjective enjoyment.That's the thing, there is. The knowledge is what causes enjoyment and what doesn't. Within a specific subset of tastes, that's very much doable, because once again, our subjective experiences aren't completely random noise, they have patterns.
>>743280145>he still thinks serious = goodthe ultimate growing up a man can do is recovering their inner child
>>743268383Yeah, I'm kind of sick of qualityslop
Disco Elisyum is probably the best-written "game" of all. But then again it was written by actual professional writershttps://youtu.be/fpjHZc9bbFk?si=eCK4btDXzZ6pQwXh
>>743275075>>743276154the Ur-Quan are essentially space Zionists>enslaved for millennia>have to endure unspeakable pain to free themselves>vow to never be enslaved again>reject any kind of peaceful coexistencewe even see the Doctrinal Conflict in Israel today, where one side of the political system favors containment and enslavement, while the other just wants to exterminate all Palestinians. or, there used to be. now it's just extermination
>>743303483Was kinda stunned that people are protesting in Israel that the government isn't proactive enough in the extermination efforts. These people are on a different scale of violence.
>>743267427you are right, so what
>>743270005This guy gets it. It’s the movie - game spectrum, with movie games in the middle of the two opposites. The more story a game has the closer it moves towards the other side of the spectrum, until it is no longer a game at all, but a movie.
>>743267427>classic good>game bad>come to anonymous forum to try standing on moral high ground shaming gamerThose classics wasted on you. Seems like you dont become a better person.
>>743304986Bruh you don't even know how to read cause you didn't read the post.
>>743303771Engels pointed out already in 1849 that there are entire peoples whose removal from the world stage is historically progressive. Israel is one such "people"there are even more parallels within the game. the Ur-Quan enslave/exterminate other species not for what those species have actually done, but for what they *might* do. the only thing missing from the game is the Ur-Quan expressing disdain for any survivors of the Dnyarri deemed too "soft"
I'll be honest. What are some good 'classics' for a /v/ermin that it's biggest interaction with literature are light novels, fanfics and visual novel? Other than factotum by bukowski and the bible, i haven't read much literature beyond highschool reads.I have copies of both Paradise Lost and Don Quixote laying around but i have yet to touch them. What's something that will appeal to me like my chink anime shit does.
>>743275673>Read Dead Redemption 2it's the same story as RDR 1, but worsefuck off faggot
>>743268214I've read ALL Goosebumps books including the lame CYOA ones.
>>743268214the seven harry potter booksthe three lord of the rings books
>>743305582stageplay scripts: shakespeare, moliere, weirdos from ussr, whatever constitutes classic theater in your fatherlandthey are decently short, were the "popular culture" of their time, and are not too different from LN trash, as they are entirely dialogue with a few sentences of prose and/or stage directionor ya know, actually watch the plays, scripts were intended to be performed after all
>>743303483>>743305387Literal Mudslimes here trying to act like they don't do worse.
>>743268526>My Immortal is no one going to mention this?
>>743307032>evidence provided: 0
>>743307712/v/ is too up it's own ass to notice the guy was trolling.
>>743308819>"The" crime and "the" punishment>Steins;GateIt was pretty obvious
>>743308819I prefer to think the other anons were just playing along.
>>743267427Im curious OP here are some games I believe are well written you tell if they are or not>Bastion>Transistor>Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories (Specifically the GBA version)>Warcraft 3>Dragon Age: Origins>Hotline Miami
>>743307712nu-/v/ is full of zoomers who were googoogaagaaing when that was big
