What makes one RTS deeper than another?Not harder. Not higher APM. What design actually creates more strategic decision-making?More unit types?More economic options?More map control?More timing windows?Something else?
Unc genre that will die for good with 'llenials
Bot thread.
>>743326297RTS will be like the 3rd most played genre next to MMO and Survival Crafting when we're all playing games together.
>>743326192People who think it's about muh apm are just turbo retarded. Like I'm trying to learn aoe2 and I can definitely click better than most of my opponents but I get constantly knowledge checked or I simply do not know what I am supposed to be doing. The click fast only matters in high level or in low level to overcome your lack of tactics.
>>>/vst/But guess no one visits that board.
>unique, interesting characters and storyline >iconic voice acting>varied and engaging gameplay (even if at times a little unbalanced) >factions that are all unique in their own right, easy to learn but difficult to master >awesome maps>awesome OST>thematically consistent, knows exactly what it is >clearly made by people with a passion for the IP >coincidentally the best RTS game ever made
Map control/timings? Are you even thinking? These are strategic-level concepts, but what do you suggest it would even mean for these to be properties of a game, rather than a position within a match? To use a non-RTS example, in 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 White exerts more "map control" (control of the central squares) than in 1. d4 d5, but how does that translate into being about the game? The former position is more "dynamic", while the latter is "closed", but both can arise in game of Chess. Well, continuing that line of thinking, I could say a game that tends to lead to dynamic positions is more strategic, but that's a far cry from what you said.But okay, I think there's two or maybe three main threads to this:>Importance of big-picture broad-strokes considerations over considerations that are NOT about big picture broad-strokes. There are ways in tactics ("micro", precise, short time-scale) or mechanics can interact with the big picture, such as new ways of engaging in combat being enabled by your tech, or how the player prioritizes various aspects their limited attention in e.g. churning out units vs controlling armies, but crucially, if you can achieve a game-winning advantage from tactical level then obviously strategy won't be that important! Note that there's also an "in-between" component, something that would be analogous to operational level in real-world military sense - movement of forces that aren't engaged in combat (and logistics, etc) - a good RTS analogue would be tank lines in SC:BW TvT - and if you are making just strategy-tactics distinction then that probably would be more strategic.
>>743328781>The game not being amenable to being solved, in full, or in part. If there's a clear equilibrium strategy because some unit is OP - let's again use SC1 as an example and imagine that spawning pool cost 150 minerals and map pool had short rush distances, then I'm pretty sure 4-pool would simply be a dominant strategy (as I understand, it basically was, bumping the cost up to 200 was one of the big balance changes SC1 had). Any potential nuance would disappear because the best thing is obvious. It doesn't have to be a matter of the full game being mapped out from start to finish either, but if you can essentially prove that x (such as spending your resources on an upgrade instead of units) is the best thing in well-defined conditions y (such as the opponent going econ-first), then enough of these and the decisions essentially make themselves for you.
>>743328781>>743328885>How well the players can ACTUALLY interact with the game's systems. Just earlier this day there was this example of a zerg vs zerg match in Brood War (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJsPYrTobpI) that displayed a BRILLIANT strategic victory. But that's one-in-a-100k game. Fundamentally, ZvZ is kinda sorta solved (it gets very dynamic very quickly with having one more drone being a decisive economic advantage that means you should defend blah blah blah) but in practice even pros tend tend to fuck this up, or they fuck razors-thin-margins micro up, and even pro level ZvZ largely looks at all strategic - mostly build order wins and throws and micro wins. So, is it a strategic matchup or not? It kinda cycles between "fuck no", "yes", fuck no", "it's the most strategic matchup in BW and one of the most strategic in any RTS". Perhaps one should say that a game is strategic if it stablizes to "yes", and that relates to the first point: strategy could be the decisive factor at best play/highest levels of play (or in wood league, that's possibly also: that's actually pretty common if there are heavy "knowledge-checks" such that experts just retrieve the proven strategy, while only the novices thing on their feet - strategically), but not in every circumstance.I would also point out that more complexity (not the same thing as depth: depth is that decisions are actually nontrivial, complexity is that there's lots of options), like greater number of units and techs and factions is a two-edged sword. I would say that "all things being equal" greater complexity increases the potential for depth, but in actual practice it is often the case that it introduces unaccounted-for broken interactions that basically solve the game.
>>743326192the capacity for skill expression in its mechanics>muh apm isn't skill>muh apm isn't deepfiltered, if your rts plays itself then it's not deep
>>743328082Whole games base their entire strategic playground on repetitive APM tasks, misplacing map size, unit and building variety, and simultaneous fronts.
nutriments nigger thread
>>743328462Everything you listed is why Dark Crusade is a great Warhammer game. None of it really explains why it's the best RTS. The best RTS should be judged by the quality of its strategic decisions -- economy, map control, timing windows, tech progression, and unit interactions -- not just its presentation. If you removed the campaign, story, music, and Warhammer IP, would it still be the best RTS? If the answer is no, then those aren't really arguments for its strategic design.
>>743328781More map control options are things like grouped resources, amount of resources across the map, and infinitely mineable resources."More timing windows" means tradeoffs like reclaim (not pushing across mid so you can secure mass from losses), upgradeable resource nodes (that have large repay times), tech transitions (that cost you military temporarily), volatile resource generators that simultaneously benefit from proximity to other buildings.
>>743329293There's a big difference between the game playing itself, and not requiring APM to be the most important part of an RTS.
what was the last year where rts was "good" (apart of starcraft 2's launch)
>>743326192how real the time strategy is
>>743326192CoH games where it's very hard to "undo" a firefight once it starts and every unit responds slowly.Forces you to always predict the future instead of respond in the moment.
>>743326192Synergies and discords."world building"
>>743326192RTS games are pretty shitty, COH is the only well designed competitive series in the genre, I grew up loving C&C but recognise that entire lineage is retarded.
Getting the economy right is the soul of the game. It's why AoE2 is still popular while all of the attempts to streamline the economy out of the gameplay they kept trying in the 00s didn't catch on.
>>743335862That seems unfair. Does it allow fast scouting?
Next up:https://youtu.be/qXn_XnHkN40?si=6t80s1GWHOe1Ua3J
>>743335732A second passes in real life, also means a second passes in game
>>743328082you click fast because you know what you are doing. someone who doesn't know what to do next will just be sitting there staring at the screen while apm plummets. everyone who complains about apm and isn't playing sc1 terran is just coping.
>>743328082Yes anon you actually need to click on the right things it's not just the act of clicking that matters. Beginners just need to know what not to build early and they will be way ahead of the other novices.
>>743338009>>743338180I think the point is that APM for the sake of APM displaces more strategic design.
>>743335321A pointless statement in this contextThe capacity for the cultivation and expression of skill is depth
>>743328462>>unique, interesting characters and storylineyou know someone is a brainlet when this is the first quality they mention about an RTS game
>>743338328Again, displacing variety:depth for the sake of repetitive tasks, small maps, and a little extra micro just replaces meaningful strategic choices with mechanical ones.
>>743326192>*look up list of fixes/version changes*>The game is modeled on late antiquity, when decisive battles were shifting to cavalry, but heavily-armed infantry with large shields and fighting in formation still played an important factor in warfare. The system is designed to allow players to enjoy the heavy clashes of infantry battle lines. I think we have achieved most of our goals (although the number of stages is too few), but on the other hand, except for a small number of infantry units wearing heavy armor, melee units on foot have little influence on the battle situation, except for a very small number with extreme performance. In a sense, it is realistic, but the setting of DIS is not the late antiquity of historical fact, but the late antiquity of the fantasy world of JRPG Champon. So we are planning to make a few more additions and changes in the future that will allow lightly armed warriors to have some impact on the battle. The above adjustments are part of that.>An AI has been added that allows registered troops to act as automatically as possible in unison during the alert stance (think of it like a Varrentuga). (Imagine a Vaarlentuga like movement).>A weapon skill that causes the weapon to strike the selected target, dealing physical damage and inflicting a dizzying condition. Granted to "Pike," "Potent Pike," and "Sansa Pike.">-The Will of the top units was revised downward overall. We wanted to make them value life a little more. >-Changed the penalty for being hit by a shot from behind from [1/3 of the shield's shot avoidance bonus added to the shot avoidance rate] to [1/3 of the shot avoidance rate itself]. (...775 pages)is...is this deeper than it looks?
775 lines*
>>743337892This is really good. Lots of fighting.
>>743339805I thought this was clear from my posts but apparently I have to spell it out for youStrategy != Depth
>>743343047How so? Risk:reward is the #1 correlative of variety:depth.
>>743343338Strategy is just one aspect of a video game that can be deep
>>743345204So, flip it. Variety:depth is the #1 correlative of risk:reward.
>>743345938what the fuck does that even mean? write your posts in real english without using dalitgpt.
>>743346186You want people to feel immersed on the edge of their seats. You can't really do that with repetitive tasks on small maps with a focus on micro.
>>743326192
>>743326192>What makes one RTS deeper than another?number of players and how long they've played the game/thread
>>743326192lol!!!
>>743347431tell me getting tower rushed doesn't put you on the edge of your seat
>>743348083Nah it usually just gets me out of my seat and walking away.
>>743349854So being immersed and on the edge of your seat isn't important then?
>>743328462The only thing balancing the necrons is that they’re fucking slow as balls to get going, but the moment they hit T3 is the moment the game ends. So naturally never letting them hit T3 is the plan, but this is DoW1. Most games never make it past 15 minutes.
>>743326192It's not about one being deeper than another, it's about being differentAoE has economy, base building and microingSC is all about timings and microSupCom is about macro and fast expandingBAR is about micro/macro and exploiting enemies compsC&C is about spam
>>743347619>Appeal to popularity fallacy.
>>743348083I wasn't really talking about AOE as a task game, but I wouldn't call it the epitome of immersion either. Clicking the minimap to move the camera around, not being able to attack while moving, and a really slow pace are all pretty detrimental to feeling like you're really controlling a battle.
>play BAR>one front player get steamrolled at minute 4 and leaves>faggot at team wants to remake the game>enemy team won't accept and want us to surrender>we just continue 7v8>fuck all the team start to spam units without booming>end up winning I like how in this game you can comeback by just eating the metal and making defenses
>>743351212I disagree. If you can widen and deepen the strategic options, you can stretch awareness.
>>743352262The strategic options available in different games are simply different
>>743352046you sound like a retard who struggles to tie his own shoes. I don't care if it's aoe or warcraft or starcraft, if you scout around your base and see enemy buildings and your asshole doesn't immediately clench you don't actually like rts games.
>>743352567this>>743352262ur a fgt
>>743352134A single Grunt can leak and cause a chain reaction and EMOTIONAL DAMAGE in that game i love it so much
>>743352134SC has more notorious spam builds than CnC does, that has some pretty heavily enforced unit counters that it won’t matter how many GDI mammoths you have, Nod fanatics will shit on them for a fraction of the cost.
>>743352567Every feature either detracts from or adds to quality.
>>743352596What the fuck are you talking about?
>>743347891Top kek
>>743326192Compelling Story, realistic terrain
>>743326297Tfw you realize mobas are just warcraft3 but each hero is controlled by a different player
>>743338180>beginners>novicesSee, there's layers to it. Just looking at the top level and saying "bro it's just clicking" is something you can do for every genre...
>>743338009I know what I'm doing and I don't click fast.
>>743356354Playing a dangerous game with that image.
>>743356807So what are you doing, when you aren't doing the things that you know that you should be doing?Because now when I think about it, it pretty much always goes just like the other anon is saying. Slow players don't just click slowly across the match. Instead they just pause their brains to do nothing or keep doing something that they shouldn't be doing.
>>743357045I'm either thinking about what my opponent is likely to do or in the process of trying to do what I know I should be doing.
MOBAs, 4X and grand strategy all mogged RTS to death.
>>743357178RTS died for the same reason as fighting games: too much execution perfection required.
>>743357112So you're thinking what to do => you don't know what to do? onnonno
>>743357378Are you illiterate?
>>743357449>I'm thinking what my opponent is doingThat doesn't require any clicks from you.
>>743357483Once again, are you illiterate?
>>743339860>is...is this deeper than it looks?I have played that because it had cute girls, and no.
>>743357508Again spending all that energy on thinking what the others are doing. Makes sense because this is the place where we think about our (((enemies))).
>>743357570What in the fuck are you talking about? Do you want me to sit there and take it in the ass the moment the enemy pivots to something else because I didn't think?
>>743357646No I'm asking you to think WHILE you're doing something else.
small, easily-overlooked actions having significant consequences considerably later
>>743357748When did I say I didn't?
>>743326192>What makes one RTS deeper than another?More strategy/builds involved and proper Rock paper scissors counters. Problem most RTS games have is they're too hungry hungry hippos with no real thought into how the units work together. Purely from a mechanics standpoints, Company of Heroes 1 is about the best in the genre, specially when you get into some of the mods for it. 2 sort of went all in on pay2win DLC commanders and 3 is just woke trash.
>>7433582095x dmg not enough rock paper scissors to you?
>>743357748Not every good RTS has 100% click uptime. SupCom does far more with units and buildings than gookclick games in terms of momentary storyworth, which is the most correlative notion of strategy and fun.
>>743359048What RTS has 100% uptime? Buildings don't work any faster the more you apm.
>>743326192I mean the straight honest answer to your question is that what make a game "deep" is a lot of unique interactions. This can be done in any number of ways but let's take AoE2 for example, the raw combat of the game is extremely simple rock paper scissors where (almost) every unit has a direct counter you are supposed to use, not very deep. But the game does have a lot of focus on economy and building, that's where you get a lot of different factions that handle that aspect of the game differently. Almost no 2 nations play the same and those match ups go deep.
>>743358209I think RPS is pretty low brow.
>>743359096That other post was the one saying anon should be doing something while he's thinking.
>>743359152You can do that something in average Joe apm too. Jumping between your control groups 100 times a minute doesn't help you.
>>743337017There's lots of recon tools, except for one faction who kind of breaks the mold and is built around mobility. They lack recon spells to make up for that.
>>743359191So, you don't have to have 100% click uptime, and anon can have time to think?
>>743359316There's few seconds of nothing here and there but it is rarely a bigger continuos time.
>>743335660>Universe at War mention that wasn't meWew that's rare.Wish they continued with what they had going for it, sprinkle more Empire at War into the mix and it would've been great.
>>743326192>peaked at SupCom>never even came close to surpassing it>command and conquer did irreparable damage to the genre (hold yer horses, I loved C&C, but now every RTS is C&C)>SupCom 2 is just worse C&C>people shill RK, its not SupCom, its at best TA with C&C>people shill BAR, its not SupCom, its at best TA with C&C>best RTS is still SupCom through FAFThe S stands for strategy, if your game is micro > macro and bum rushing, you are an RTT. Supcom clicks per second and microing barely matter, so its the thinking mans game.This is like when CoD ruined FPS or souls ruined action games, it doesnt matter if they were good, the issue is everyone else copying the formulas.
>>743338009>>743356807>>743357045>>743357112>>743357378>>743357449>Are you illiterate?how about you just get together and measure your APMs>https://www.gamedate.org/set up a stream so we can watch too
>>743360104Why would I play with a rando?
>>743335660>4 new games (SupCom, C&C3, EE3 and UaW)>One of which was panned out of existence (EE3)>2 expansion packs (CoH and AoE3)>1 game that doesn't belong (EU3)Grim. Some might go as far as to say very grim.
>>743360786why would you only play with a friend? ??>friend onlyincest>CPU only retardation and unresolved social issues are you the anti-APM (apm doesn't matter) guy or the APM guy?
>>743356826What do you mean ? I know there's threat of pillaging but that's no hangable offense
>>743359541SupCom has good micro. Dodge micro. And I really like air battles. You can come out of an even fight with half of your air units.
>>743363873true, but what I mean is you can be off doing something else on a macro level and be fine, you dont need to micro every battlethough air definitely works better with it>I also forgot the command for spreading out attacks
>>743353018I got banned for drawing dicks. Just like any other game, BAR is ruined by the SJW terror moderators and report button. Why the FUCK do we need this shit? Once the Steam release comes, they'll probably worsen the rules even more and enforce a League of Losers-tier auto ban bot that fucks you over for the smallest insults.
i remember playing some old rts called dark reign, was really fun.
Man I love this lil guys like you wouldn't believe. They're carrying my sorry ass through the ladderAD ARMAAAAAAA!!!!
>>743326192What is our opinion on affliction damages (as opposed to true damage)?
>>743329293>filtered, if your rts plays itself then it's not deepFuck, I can't find a video anymore, but some random-ass youtuber had an interesting idea about that: it's not about the game playing itself, it's about the ratio of decision-to-actionsTypically: unit queue.>Player decided he need 10 grunts>Game has no queue (or small ones): you need to repeatedly come back and click at the right time to maximize production>Game has queue: 10 clicks on the spot, decision fulfilled.First case take more "skill", but it's not strategic skill. The strategy skill is in the decision, and the game should aim to remove everything else - not to make the game "play itself", but because it's not strategic skill being tested.Nevermind, found the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sQNeEBrvQ0
>>743347891Unironically saved for the next supcomtard thread.
>>743326192SCALECALE
>>743367618There are some extremely retarded niggers in that comment section, holy fuck.
>>743364827Gonna to details what you mean exactly a little more, Anon.
>>743326192To answer OPs question. Its having all the mechanics of your game gracefully lattice together like the top of a pie.
>>743368823Pic is the original ability of the Abomination where it exploded at low HP. They changed the red to green to give him his current upgrade.
>>743369296True, but here it's mostly because it's the Corruption spell in WoW, the shit you will be spamming to hell and beyond when playing an Affliction warlock.Still waiting on what you mean by Affliction damages. The concept is used very differently depending on games.Just DoTs?Debuff?Heal-spontenously-after-a-time like illusion damage in CoH?
>>743367618Isn't it just ironic how the guy starts by saying that PvP difficulty is based on your opponent and then spends 15 minutes ranting about the game difficulty, completely ignoring the opponent factor.Also especially in AOE2's case, if they make macro easier it buffs micro. Right now in most games the aggro player struggles to keep their eco up. If doing eco becomes easy they can go all in microing their units...And the more things you make easy the more the game becomes memory game, and once people fully learn it it's like Heartstone where you just make choices and then cry when you get unlucky.
>>743369929Or maybe you're used to playing games with a shallow strategy layer calling themselves strategy games.
>>743369929Heartstone's main problem (if translated as an RTS) is giving everyone spammable Nukes, and low-tier factories being able to shit out a max pop army in 30 seconds.Also it's a damn card game, RNG fucking up your perfect plan and forcing you to play around luck is pretty much the entire point - it's nearly the direct opposite of what most RTS try to do....Shit now I kinda want a Heatstone-brained RTS. Not the late bullshit version but the up-to-first-few-expansion one. Just to see if it's possible to make a party game RTS, like that Smash did with fighting games.
>>743371082I don't have anal pain from words, I just like whatever it is. But he even himself explained it how removing some element will just put more weight to another. So then after unit production is gone they will move onto something else. And else. Until there is nothing left but choose an action every 1 minute and watch it play out.
Use case for depth?
>queued up production must pre-reserve resources so players who optimally micro their macro by using more APM without using queue can have an articial advantage that makes no sense... because it just has to okay
>>743326297This. I showed my 13 year old cousin CaC Generals and he said... "idk it seems booooring"Im like WHAT??? I was playing Shogun Total war at age 11. How tf are modern 13 amd 14 year olds this mind fucked
>>743371382What do you mean by depth
>>743372302>How tf are modern 13 amd 14 year olds this mind fuckedMy theory is that we started gaming back when action stuff wasn't really good.If you started with point-and-click, RTS seems appealing.If you started with "BingBingWahoo 12 - collect-a-ton edition" and "Gun&Parkour:2 - Micheal Bay DLC", you will never give RTS more than a passing glance.
>>743372302i tried to show my 6 year old nephew A New Hope a few years ago and he couldn't even make it to the scene where Luke watches the two suns. He just straight up told me he's bored after barking at every scene OH THAT IS THAT CHARACTER, OH THAT IS THAT during the fucking opening scene. He's awful at school, hyperactive & thin but also craves sweets like crazy. I don't think my family lineage will survive much longer.
>>743372302CaC Generals looks like shit though, I say this as a probably older unc, early 3D looks like cheap garbage nowadays.
why do people in these RTS threads always forget that pvp doesn't mean 1v1. But also there's team games which are way more casual, relaxing and you can get carried by your teammates? do you remember the 30 simultaneous aoe2 tg rooms in gameranger? comfy as fuck
>>743328462Nothing will hit as hard as reading the campaign maps archives with the metamap themes playing in the background at night.
>>743372806I associate team games with not being casual at all unless it's among friends.
>>743367618I hate when people put chess on a pedestal as some kind of ultimate strategic game that all games should be judged against, there's a reason the top players end up bored with it, Magnus prefers to play blitz over regular chess and what it does is almost turn it into a real time game.
>>743374228>blitz over regular chessIt's literally regular chess with a timer...wtf
>>743374424and that changes everything, the openings and tactics are different
>>743359541rts absolutely did not peak at supcom. you overrate that game heavily
>>743374228I agree but not for the reasons you do. Go is clearly superior on the strategic level and shogi is superior on the tactical level.
>>743373837They're way more casual than 1v1 for sure. And even 1v1s can be casual if the game has playerbase enough to have a good amount of low elo players
>>743374626Nah, the only games I consider better than it are games similar to it but more modern. It's the best professionally released RTS I've ever played.
>>743374626Don't bother.The supcomnigger is well-known around here.
>>743374626supcomfags are in a cult
>>743369479Oh i was just autistically identifying that pic. I dont even know ehat this thread is about.
>>7433725781996 pushing technology where we can only have 2 zombies in a room Resident Evil 12019 pushing technology to the limit and can still only have 2 zombies in a room Resident evil 2 remakeI dont think times have changed that much.
like...just make your own rts?
>>743375476You think the games would be better if we had 1000 zombies in a room?
>>743375583Yes!
>>743375583Vampire Survivors proved that the answer is yes, at least for a sizable chunk of the population.Left 4 Dead answered for 10-to-100 zombies before that.
>>743375548On it. Currently having "fun" making the physics engine. Today is a particularly "fun" day trying to figure out why the fuck my crowd gradient system is globally pushing everyone toward the North, despite being locally correct.
>>743375728So resident evil and vampire survivors have the same target audience?
>>743375910People who are racist toward zombies, yes.
>>743372578The reality is that you started when everyone was new to the genre. Kids that start now face against spergs with +20 years of experience.
>>743375583This is the guy youre responding to. After playing thr Starship Troopers game from 2005 where you kill thousands of bugs, yes. Whats the point of a do over if you are not updating the encounter design? The RE3 remake showed they could just drop 20 zombies in an area if they didnt have epic gore turned on for all body parts.
>>743375996I started with Dune II (well, Dune I but that was more of a gsg), and I still suck just as hard at RTS as I was back then.I only enabled "ooooh, so that's how you APM correctly" during Starcraft II, and promptly decided I didn't like playing correctly.
>>743368823Affliction damages are a type of attack that apply an affliction. For midwits who are afraid of words, it basically means debuff or crowd control (but crowd control doesn't really exist in RTS).Examples of affliction damages are: slow, disarm, stun, root, capture/control.Zero-k has many of those, and Starcraft 2 too. It has slow (mothership bubble), disarm (EMP against spellcasters), control (neural parasite), and even forced displacement (Reaper grenade).It is a way of creating complexity that is not arbitrary bonus like >>743358334In Starcraft 2, they belong to specialised units, but in Zero-k they are a perfectly standard form of weaponry (it is what truly differentiates a Minotaur from a Cyclop).
>>743376965where do you get your terminology from
>>743377113Killing Floor 2
>>743377113The schizo will link his bible any moment now.
>>743376965This reminded me of when Kernel Panic added the Hacker group and they had a DDOS unit.People got big time mad when their harassment pokes ended up getting stunned by massed paralyze beams and then surrounded by mines.
>>743364016G.
>>743371382The more distinct strategic options a player has at any given moment, the deeper the strategy tends to be -- provided those options are all viable.
>>743367618Seems like he wants to play a RTT, in a RTT game like Gates of Hell you have zero mechanical requirements for the army building aspect, you gain resources automatically over time and you just click on the unit icon you want and it appears with close to zero friction.
>>743379948>more distinct options That's complexity.
>>743376965>but crowd control doesn't really exist in RTSSome SupCom units have an EMP stun.
>>743369929>Also especially in AOE2's case, if they make macro easier it buffs micro.This is already the case with DE. Before DE, late game imperial play was a struggle as your over 50 farms keep expiring in the middle of combat. Either you go back to micro manage your economy and seed your farms or you pay attention to combat. You can't do both, so you have a meaningful strategy decision to make caused by lack of APM as humans can't focus on two things at once. Except now with DE farms will just auto reseed. So Hera and Liereyy can just micro manage every fight with no consequences and players who prefer to focus on economy don't have the option to do so.>>743326192>Not harder. Not higher APM.Those increase depth as I just said.
>>743380235How so?
>>743380628Let's be honest tho, having to macro eco, coming back one by one TC per TC to queue vills and the same for every production building was the must unfun shit ever. Even with the amount QoL DE added the game is still mentally taxing specially in even imp fights.
I never see the terminator RTS mentioned. That is a great game for solo play check it if you have the chance. RTS isn't dead.
>>743381132No disagreement on my part about it being unfun, but removing it reduced depth. I think it was worth it to reduce depth in this instance especially since the skill ceiling is already so high anyway, but I see people thinking it was just a net positive with no drawback. Same with other quality of life stuff like auto scouting.
>>743380628>Those increase depth as I just said.They can increase the skill ceiling, but they don't necessarily increase strategic depth. If doubling APM requirements leaves the optimal decisions unchanged, the game is harder, not deeper. Depth comes from creating new meaningful decisions, not just making the same decisions harder to execute. An RTS gets strategically deeper when it gives you more meaningful choices, not just more difficult inputs.
>>743381132>coming back one by one TC per TC to queue villsYou know you have binds for selecting all TCs? Same for production buildings.
>>743381552You didn't in HD and previous versions
>>743326192Maybe you should actually try playing games, then you'll have a better answer for your question than anyone here could give you. Faggot
>>743381893Control groups then. I Control group my TCs but I guess having army production in Ctrl+Q/W/E/R is better than numbers.
>>743382026you couldn't control groups buildings either
>>743381492But that's my point. Humans aren't perfect and aren't machines. You can't pay attention to two points in the map at once. You have to prioritize one or the other. There's no optimal decision as the optimal decision would be to pay attention to both at once. So:>Depth comes from creating new meaningful decisions, not just making the same decisions harder to execute.you have to make meaningful choices exactly because execution is hard. Of course someone who gets better at execution will have to make fewer decisions of this kind, but some people having talent or practicing execution while others are better at things like macro creates a more varied competitive environment.
>>743382118lmao what. But I did play HD, pretty sure you could in that and it might even had the select all X hotkeys.
>>743381381The terminator rts is like a men of war or gates of hell. Its quirky, after campaign then sandbox mode you can get a mod to open up the sandbox.
>>743382241My bad, dude. Seems like you actually could. I was checking this videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFXST3Dy8XUMan look a the amount of soul the old game has tho
What's the current status of AoE2 and its DLCs? Still pumping out decent updates?
>>743382867DLCs don't really matter, they just do them for moneys.
>>743328160the issue with every specialized board is that its filled with hyper autists that talked about everything there is to talk about already.It's like if you are getting into chess and you are surrounded by Magnus Carlsen's
>>743326192A better puzzle, more freedom for player to solve said puzzle, more unit types, more diverse and horizontal unit upgrade and customisation. Also, AI and pathfinding.
>>743328462I played some recently. AI pathfinding is atrocious, so is AI in general.
>>743335660define good2019 was a good year for RTS just because AoE2:DE restored a lot of hope in the genre and goodwill for remasters.After that we got AoE4, AoM:DE, Homeworld Desert of Kharak, Tempest Rising and a wide range of community projects and revivals and games like BAR, Zero K took off.
>>743328082Click fast is also dumb because the entire thing csme from Starcraft's bad path finding where constantly clicking would make the path finding better. AoE2 and most RTS games after SC had good path finding do you never needed to click that fast.
>>743328462>unique, interesting characters and storylineIt's Warhammer slop
>>743339860Seems like shittier lost technology
>>743384836good. dont need to hear noob opinions
Make way for the king
Dead genre
>>743387813alive genre. get opposite posted, bitch.
>>743326192It's relative to how long it takes for a unit to cross the map. The longer it takes the deeper the game is because something as simple as unit movement become strategic choice.This is why games with tiny maps usually add more pointless busy work to give you the illusion of depth.
>>743367618you think smart queuing is lowering the actions for one decision, but actually it's like an option select in a fighting game that's making decisions for you. each unit you build is an individual decision. what happens if you queue 10 units and you want to make a building at the same time, but you don't have enough money to afford all 10 and the building? in a real game you have to make a decision to cancel some units in the queue or delay making the building, but with the smart queue the other 9 units are bought on credit so you don't have to think about it. what happens if you have more units queued in another production facility and they both come up for payment when you have 0 money in the bank? instead of actively deciding which unit you want more the game will decide for you and automatically cancel one.
>>743390356>the game will decide for you and automatically cancel oneWhich shitty RTS did you play that does this?Every RTS I can remember just drip fed money equally into each queue, in that situation.
>>743326192These threads really need to start discussing Cosmonarchy HEAVILY.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLCmkjLrdN0
>>743390356I'm not seeing the downside.
>aoe2, starcraft and literally who gameswhat a terrible thread, terrible posts, terrible posters
>>743390947that's a decision too then. the point is that you are letting the game decide what to do for you.
>>743393918No, it's doing what I want with less clicks.
What the hell is creeper world?
>>743394082An RTS where you play simplified factorio to repel a water simulation.Used to be a flash game an eternity ago.
>>743391505This looks good.
Why do I hear nothing about mindustry? It's a pretty fun game and works on mobile too.
>>743390356SupCom solved this with a streaming economy. You can place or queue anything without deposits, and if you're overspending, everything is just slower to produce. It's the best economy.
>>743394004it doesn't know what you want, it's just following preset behavior. the only way it can be doing what you want is if all you want is that preset behavior and never think beyond that.
>>743328462Its not even the best version of DoW1
>>743394727>SupCom solved thisI'm 90% sure C&C (or maybe RA1) already let you queue stuff for which you don't have the money yet, and spread the credit flow against all waiting queues.
>>743396474Apparently, C&C and RA are harvester-and-bank economies, but Total Annihilation has a streaming economy.
>>743396474>>743397329https://chatgpt.com/s/t_6a580d07a9b48191a18a4872ef076440
>>743397329How does the computer know what to build next?
having handcannoneers (especially if they would be buffed from their current state)
>>743372302Have you considered that genre is boring as fuck? It stopped developing 30 years ago when Total Annihilation got published. Beyond that it was just never ending regression.I fucking love strategy games, but RTS is boring as fuck. Because in reality it has hardly anything to do with a strategy. It's basically Sims but for man. I mean where was the last time you've played RTS with chain of command? Never, right?It's all ooga booga troops manager. "Oh, I hit dopamine strike in prototype Leage of Legends in PvP against some Starcraft sperg."This is the actual genre for people with short attention spans. There must be million resource things on screen at the same time with constant explosions everywhere or else the game is broing. This is exactly how RTS fags think, and you are not fooling anyone.
>>743391505Did anyone here play this yet?
>>743400753Play SupCom FAF.
>>743400909Dead game
>>743401209You can probably make or join a Dual Gap. That one is almost full.
>>743387076Play Dow3, it's the only Dow game with excellent pathfinding and ok AI
>>743400753you don't actually want to play a strategy game, you just want to larp as a general and feel like you're a genius when you win (without actually engaging with the game's mechanics).
>>743375728>Doesn’t use the obvious Dead Rising comparison.cmon bruh
