Can someone explain Japanese culture to me? It seems like a lot of their media is intentionally dark and depressing like Dark Souls and Elden Ring (and Harakiri and Berserk but that's a movie and a comic). But at the same time things like Devil May Cry are really hopeful and have themes of love overcoming all, but DMC feels overtly western influenced. So what's the deal with that? Do the Japanese really like doomer depressing themes or is my exposure to Japanese culture just really skewed?
>>743387483>Japanese culture is one giant monolythMajority of Dark Souls is western themed or inspired and spiced with a bit of Japanese culture. The equation is:Ico + Shadow of the Colossus + King's Field IV + Ocarina of Time + old fantasy board games and novels Miyazaki read.Quelagg was inspired by Cragspider the Firewitch from Glorantha/And there are enemies in Blightown literally called 'Cragspiders', those fiery insects that do a big moan when you kill them. Cragspider in Glorantha is a demi-goddess Troll who combines the power of fire and darkness. She can end your game in KoDP if she wants. She's hardcore. Most everything from Dark Souls is plucked from something else, often brazengly. Most of fantasy novels and games had a serious and gloomy tone.
>>743387929>Most everything from Dark Souls is plucked from something else, often brazengly. Most of fantasy novels and games had a serious and gloomy tone.Yeah but they have hope. Fromsoft games just give me this vibe of wallowing in gloom and despair. But I dunno, I feel like something is being lost in translation. It all feels weird to me and I don't know if that's Miyazaki or Japanese people in general. Different cultures are interesting, they can have such different takes on reality and what's important.
>>743388180Miyazaki has huge amount of hope and he's in fact an optimist and fills his works with dignitity and hope. It's almost cliche that many "darker" series in Japanese manga, like Berserk, or Fist of the North Star, are brimming with a sense of optimism. Even if the entire world is crapsack, there are still good people, and a reason to keep going. This is an interview bit from the Dark Souls 1 Design Works artbook that always stuck with me:>Miyazaki: Most people don't believe me when I say this, but a certain kind of refinement, elegance, and dignity are very important to me. I'll usually tell the designers that flat-out grotesque or splatter type designs will not get past me. This has everything to do with my own personal sensibilities, and it is something that I apply to every design that I approve. It's a little hard to describe if you were to ask me, "Well, what do you mean by dignity?" I guess the best answer I can provide is right here in this book, in every design you see within these pages. My idea of dignity is something that I pursue with every project I work on and not just "Dark Souls".>Waragi: I remember when I was drawing the Undead Dragon, I submitted a design draft that depicted a dragon swarming with maggots and other gross things. Miyazaki handed it back to me saying, "This isn't dignified. Don't rely on the gross factor to portray an undead dragon. Can't you instead try to convey the deep sorrow of a magnificient best doomed to a slow and possibly endless descent into ruin?"
>>743388180>Yeah but they have hope. Fromsoft games just give me this vibe of wallowing in gloom and despair. But I dunno, I feel like something is being lost in translation.fromsoft has a record of liking depressing or dark themes i think some dev explicitly said so. also most of western medieval mythology is. it's not really a japanese thing at all
>>743388306This feels kind of untrue these days with Bloodborne / Elden Ring
>>743388306>the deep sorrow of a magnificient best doomed to a slow and possibly endless descent into ruin?"That doesn't sound very hopeful. I just sounds like he finds despair and decay beautiful.
>>743388347>also most of western medieval mythology is.Is it though? Even stuff like the story of Ragnarok (which may very well be a post Christian add on) ends on a hopeful note of renewal.
>>743388180>Fromsoft games just give me this vibe of wallowing in gloom and despair.
>>743388378i can't speak for elden ring but bloodborne is more about humanity's attempt to overcome itself and its shortcomings, and its failures to do so, there's never a final answer though. ludwig boss battle literally makes your blood boil, i think it's more about these singular encounters
>>743388569That looks like bootleg Devil May Cry.
The fantasy genre is inherently about decline. There's always a greater origin from which the current world in the story has descended, and at best you're seeing the last wisps of greatness before they fade away. The whole first 2/3rds of Fellowship of the Ring is all about that, for instance. The Souls games are just completely post-collapse. But they're always inevitably about forging a new future in the ashes of the old kingdom.
>>743389087Maybe I haven't played enough western fantasy games but I don't really get that vibe from the ones I played (Elder Scrolls). Hell Fallout is more hopeful than Dark Souls, and that's set in a nuclear wasteland.
Miyazaki is an idealist, and you can only have light, dark, decline, good, evil, with a strong sense of traditionalism and morals. Yes, the world might be shit, but we know it's bad because we hold such strong ideals. Isn't it tragic? Morn for these things. Pray for their redemption in the next life. It's shit like THIS that's nihilistic. It's the complete opposite of the fantasy setting and mindset. It doesn't believe in anything, since how can atoms and the void produce goodness or wrong? And without believe in anything external, they tern to ideologies, like Marx, for something to worship, but even there it's flawed. So there's nothing to believe in. This kind of media and personalities is just fucking exhausting. Especially their endless quest for perfection and ideological goobie-goop and ego driven bullshit.
>>743389549the point of elden ring is that yes the world is dying but there's all these forces and people that want to make their own new (and better for them) world with their own vision.
>>743389639have you played the games? because they're exactly the opposite. in fact if an ideology is ever presented it's always shown to be double faced and have flaws.
>>743389639>Pray for their redemption in the next life.There never is though, everyone just dies. Fuckin' "forgive me zanzabart" bs.
>>743389809Cuz it's by a bunch of Marxists who have seen that Marxism is double faced and has flaws, so they extend their cynicism towards Marxism itself. These fuckers have been doing this since the 50s. They're filled with despair because they want the assurances of Marxism, but dont' have anything else to replace it with. And since they have nothing, they replace their output WITH their endless search and despair.
>>743389809>>743390041Could we not talk about Marx? I want to talk about the Japs and why they're so weird.
>>743390096i agree, he's a complete retard
>>743390143Bro, don't...
>>743387483what? sure they have a boner for typical fantasy settings that are very 1600s-1800s western inspired but from my (admittedly VERY SMALL knowledge of japanese media) there’s loads of feel-good shit too. that or it’s contemporary I AM SALARY MANNU, I MUST GAINU RESPECTO FROM BOSS, BUT LUSTY SECRETARY WANT SUM FUCK AND MY WAIFU AT HOME WIRR BE BIG MAD AYAA
>>743390096You need to see the opposite. What actual cynicism and nihilism is like. You want something dark that sends chills down my spine? Read Foucault's works. I was assigned them in uni and no one else saw how inherently dark this shit is.Miyazaki and most fantasy have tragedy, despair, but they're more traditional in its morality. Tragedy is one of the oldest forms of written works, and it only works if you have a strong sense of right and wrong, good and bad since that forms the basis of the tragedy. Dark Souls uses a lot of tragedy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy#GreekBut you are to never despair or give up. Have you read Berserk? This is the same tone Berserk has, and Miyazaki is an obvious fan. The world may be filled with evil, but there's always hope and a reason to push forward.
>>743390772yeah, this is basically what the first dark souls amounts to.
>>743390772I've never read Berserk because it looks like torture porn to me and all the fans seem like goobers.
>>743388306>Miyazaki handed it back to me saying, "This isn't dignified. Don't rely on the gross factor to portray an undead dragon. Can't you instead try to convey the deep sorrow of a magnificient best doomed to a slow and possibly endless descent into ruin?"
>>743391059if you like fromsoft games it's a must read, it's much more than that. and i had to be convinced by a friend for an entire year before reading it so i understand.
>>743387483>Devil May Cry feels overtly western influenced.No western devs can make something like Devil May Cry, just look at the reboot spin-off. Same goes with every Japanese game with western setting like Silent Hill, Resident Evil, Souls games.
People romanticize japan like it's a disney land, especially fat ass amerisharts who think the world is their playground.But in reality being average japanese guy is immense suffering.Which is why there is so much japanese diaspora to brazil, you cannot suffer in brazil because even if you are a poor as fuck favela monkey you can still fuck hot bunda.
>>743391514Is the secret to happiness being around women with fat asses?
>>743391059If you get to Conviction, you will see the entire themes of the story play out since Guts and Jill are mirrors of each other. So it's easy to think "yes, Guts is a struggler who never quits because he's 187cm tall and a superhuman warrior", but Jill is in the same spot. It's not about physical strength but moral conviction. That's a story of optimism through tragedy.
>>743391503Okay. but the rock and roll music with the English lyrics? That's western influence.
>>743391503>>743387483Jean-Paul Belmondo* and his films are the inspiration for Space Adventure Cobra. Cobra as a character is meant to be as against Japanese concepts of a traditional hero as possible. Dante and Devil May Cry draw heavily from Space Adventure Cobra.It's mostly generational. The DMC makers were alive in the 70s and based it on shit they grew up with. DmC: Devil May Cry grew up in the 90s and based it on THEIR childhood films like Fight Club or Trainspotting. So yes, if you asked random ass devs now to make a new DMC, they'd draw on the media they consumed. People now are NOT watching early 80s anime, or watching 70s French action-thrillers. (though they fucking SHOULD).
>>743387483Japan is a land of arté. A variety of expression of all kinds seen in Greek theatre-melancholy, sorrow, and hope co-exists simultaneously and multi-dimensionally ie some of which is even seen as tonal dissonance-becomes more layers through which to interpret a work for a strong mind.
>>743392514Doesn't the femboy nigga die though? I don't like that, it's just Shadow of the Erdtree all over again.
>>743392530Yeah it’s super western influenced and has been since Kamiya who is a self loathing westaboo. Other anon is missing the point that it’s a product of cultural fusion just like Avatar the last airbender is an eastern inspired media made in the west. Neither culture could make either without drawing from the other.
>>743392841*I also suspect the "Belmont" Family from Castlevania is drawn from his last name. ベルモンド一族 Berumondo Ichizoku is the transliteration, and an English translator would easily truncate it to "Belmont" thinking that "mondo" is a mistake. "Ah, he must have meant Belmont!"If you keep diving in our favorite manga, anime, games, etc from the 70s onwards, MOST of the time you'll see some major influence from American or European media. Miyazaki grew up on fantasy novels and tabletop games.
>>743388408No, he finds decay and despair inevitable, because they are. He finds determination in the face of that inevitability beautiful.
>>743388408The dragons were the old order of the world and were brought down by Gwyn and the other lords. There’s kind of a hopeful message there, a living example that the order can be changed and that nothing has absolute control. Depends on if you find Ozymandias hopeful I guess.
>>743387483 I usually find Japanese games pretty hopeful especially compared to eastern european games where it's just constant depression or insanity. The whole souls series feels more hopeful than the fate of every eastern european made main video game character.
>>743387483Most Japanese media is actually just goofy and whimsical. Sometimes you’ll get something like that and then it becomes existential.
>>743387483Souls games are explicitly centered around never ending cycles. It's a buddhist theme the Japs are innately in tune with as easterners.
>>743391059It's a homo love story.
>>743393402Yeah but that poem names Ozymandias as a dickhead. Like, I feel like the point of that poem is "nothing lasts forever, least of all tyrants".
>>743394018with the most angsty princess faggot imaginable
>>743394018Doesn't Griffith die though?
>>743387483A big thing you need to recognize is that the Japanese are less attached to the victories and defeats of characters. The mindset that your favorite character needs to be "protected" from the writer exists, but it's not so intense and pervasive as it is in the west. So characters losing and dying isn't nearly as much of a value judgement inherently as it would be in a western work. Sometimes a story includes good guys who lost before your good guy showed up, or who will lose some battle partway through the game no matter what. Sometimes a story about a world that went to shit isn't about throwing blame for the ruin of society, but about how interesting a world can be when it begins to break down. They don't see these as hopeless ideas.
>>743394229i guess it's because there's much less individuality in the east compared to our post christian western world
>>743394229Is that why they like cuck porn so much too?
>>743394294Eh, but when they do self insert, they self insert hard. Maybe it has something to do with that, if they're not particularly self inserting as anyone then they're not particularly attached to seeing the story go their way?
>>743394060I find some hope in that. The dragons were dickheads too, as were the lords eventually. When the chosen undead is looking at the husk of a dragon, he’s seeing evidence that his mission is more than just a fruitless lunge against inevitability.
>>743394647>if they're not particularly self inserting as anyone then they're not particularly attached to seeing the story go their way?yeah that's what i thought. i think we are more focused to the fate of singular individuals in stories usually
>>743394715I've always thought this mindset was a bit oversimplified. Yes you want the good guys to win, that's natural, but being so invested in your preferred winner(s) that you're personally hurt by scenes demonstrating their flaws and shortcomings is harmful to your understanding of a story.
>>743395780to be fair, japan is also reluctant to show the bad side of their society, it's just that good writers or storytellers are rare in any nation
>>743387483>Can someone explain Japanese culture to me? It seems like a lot of their media is intentionally dark and depressing like Dark Souls and Elden RingAre you fucking crazy? Have you seen any nip media at all? Outside of the Goy Souls ofc.Japs have the most revolting rainbow vomit culture known to man.You think just because of a sinle westboo (Miyazaki) entire culture is grimdark? You fucking moron, you absolute cretin.I am ashamed of pigs like you. Educate yourself imbecile before speaking out loud. What a tool...
>>743396043Absolutely true. I guess that reluctance for even the appearance of self-repudiation in fiction just emerges in different forms in each culture, then.
>>743388306Demon's Souls MENTIONED!
>>743390308/thread
>>743387483miyazaki explicitly said in multiple interviews the point of designing the worlds to be bleak is to make the triumph against the difficult and depressing enemies more exciting. it's not really more deep than that. the real 'themes' of dark souls etc are the cycles of samsara
>>743387483>Do the Japanese really like doomer depressing themes or is my exposure to Japanese culture just really skewed?OMG DIFFERENT AUTHORS DO DIFFERENT THINGS, YOU HAVE METALHEADS AND YOU HAVE NIGGERS WOWIWOWIE HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN
>>743392514This shot is also stolen for Oscar in Dark Souls. If you view him from the little hole in the wall it looks exactly like this.Lots of people notice Miyazaki ripping off designs, and themes, but few will spot shit like this.
>>743389087>The fantasy genre is inherently about decline. There's always a greater origin from which the current world in the story has descendedThis is such a blatant lie
>>743397708I don't understand how that works. It just feels like you're a dickhead running around taking a dump on an even bigger dump of a world.
>>743387483It's more like they don't have the attitude that every piece of media needs to appeal to every audience all of the time. So when they make something dark they make it for people who like dark media and if someone says "I don't like dark media!" They tell them that this piece of media is not for them Whereas a lot of Western media is made in the kind of environment that is desperate to squeeze every dollar out of every media project, so they "cannot afford" to alienate audiences with something that's too dark, too sexy, too complicated etc.Basically it's amazing what you can accomplish when you say to people "I don't care what you think, I made this because this is what I wanted to make". You get an equal or greater amount of trash, but sometimes you get a diamond.
>>743399046Sounds like weeb cope to me.
>>743398734Not really, most if not all bosses are responsible for the shitty state if the world or a byproduct of it. It's up to you to supplant them and save the world with your unfailing determination.
>>743400501I guess you're right in that regard, for example Seath sucks, despite lore YouTubers trying to convince me he doesn't.I was thinking more Elden Ring. I feel like a lot of the demigods aren't actually bad people. Well, at least Malenia, Miquella and Morgott.
>>743390772>The world may be filled with evil, but there's always hope and a reason to push forward.Idk about the lore in Demons souls, but the lore in both DS and ER makes it pretty clear that the world is eternally fucked with 0 point in keeping it going, isnt it?
>>743401284There's hints that things could be better, but it's never really clear what the endings actually do, so you never actually know if you fix shit.
>>743388306>>743397507>Boletarian Palace / Gates of Boletaria / The Lord's Pathgradually goes from a utilitarian fortress into a more opulent and regal palace, as well as how the size of the military resistance increases as you get closer towards Allant. also pretty sure that the tower he's in gives him the ability to see you for the majority of the time you're progressing through it, since it's so high up>Stonefang Tunnel / Smithing Grounds / The Tunnel Citythe slight desert tone outside is nice, as is the settlement off in the distance. I like how the workers are mostly placid and mindless, they're still doing their job but it feels pointless. once you get down to the mines proper with all the bugs, lava and labyrinthine tunnels it starts to feel very oppressive, like there's no way back to the surface. I like the lead-up to the Armored Spider, the people in the cobwebs and stuff, you know a giant spider is coming but the fact it shoots fire and stuff is a cool enough twist and its track is very chaotic, much like the boss. Flamelurker is cool, the visual ties between him and the blacksmiths is interesting, he feels like the 3rd brother>Tower of Latria / Prison of Hopegreat sound design (Lord Rydell's scream, the ringing, the moans). some great worldbuilding here, with the yellow flags, the connection between the King In Yellow and Lovecraft (the jailers wearing yellowish robes, how he was said to return with 'strange demons in tow' which is likely the jailers), the story behind the Fool's Idol and how hopelessly fucked the prisoners are, the heart is awesome, the flesh pit below is cool, the entire area is just great. also the gargoyles are the only enemies in the game that drop souls, which implies that the Old Monk was performing Soul Arts on them and they were once humans, which is further reinforced by their pained expressions and the nails in them
>>743399531how?
>>743403489>Shrine of StormsI think it touches on more esoteric / occult / shaman type stuff too, with the Shrine of Storms especially; just look at the skeletons and how they're decorated with animal skulls, the trinkets they wear, the weird slugs and their swirl patterns (very hard to see), the sacrificial stuff going on there, the stretched lips of the Old Hero and Adjudicator, the wisps, reapers, it's really compelling stuff. the fact it's all on an isolated island as well as the influence of the Old One makes it feel like you're a stranger in a strange land, that it's a place with very ancient traditions and customs.>Valley of Defilement (Depraved Chasm) the best swamp they've done, easily. putrid and almost suffocating atmosphere, crescendos with the small spark of humanity still found in Maiden Astraea and Garl Vinland, pure kinothe places you visit feel as if they have only recently become corrupted by the Old One, over the space of about ~25 years, and since each location is spread out by hundreds or thousands of miles you get to see how the Fog affected each one of them differently, twisting their cultures, inhabitants and all the rest of it. in Dark Souls the world feels like it has always been magical, that magic and fantasy creatures are things the inhabitants are already very familiar with since the world itself was fantasy right from the start, and the fact that Lordran and Lands Between is so compact can make the world feel a bit too gamey and hard to believe at times, considering how the Ice World is only 5 minutes away from the Lava World
>>743403537>the first time you enter the Maiden Astraea fight>the music starts>Go forth, Garl Vinland. May you be unharmed.>she just kills herself if you get close and talk to her after ending Garlbest boss in any souls game
Miyazaki fun factsDeS>Miyazaki's favorite games are Dragon Quest 3, Link to the Past, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Oblivion, Left 4 Dead>Miyazaki's favorite anime are Berserk, JoJo, Blade of the Immortal, Aura Battler Dunbine and The Vision of Escaflowne>Miyazaki's favorite FS game pre-Souls is King's Field 2 and Frame Gride (Dreamcast) >Miyazaki loves to read the backstory documents of Game of Thrones, Rune Quest and Lovecraft>Miyazaki was working on Armored Core until Takeshi Kajii (SCE) pitched Demon's Souls because he loved King's Field>Takeshi Kajii (SCE) had a critical decision to be made: do we ask FROM Software to make the game more accessible or do we let the team pursue the creative road it had set for this project? They chose the latter, and it was considered a big risk>Takeshi Kajii (SCE) wanted Maiden in Black>Miyazaki worked on animation where she’s sitting while shaking her legs>Miyazaki set the "praise the sun" pose as the “miracle” action. Unfortunately, accidentally included it in the internal presentation he had to give, and one of the higher-ups actually said it was lame. He told them he’d get rid of it right away, but secretly kept it as an effect for RING OF SINCERE PRAYER>"This is crap," Yoshida recalled saying. "This is an unbelievably bad game." >Miyazaki designed all 5 worlds, and the scrapped Northern Limit left behind on the PS3 game disc, in 2 years>Miyazaki was going to adjust DeS difficulty until he got a call from the person in charge of the SCE debugging team. “No, you don’t worry about this, the game should remain difficult.”>Miyazaki: When designing the bosses, I made sure that they would be varied and exciting. I prepared different gameplay and strategies for each one so that players didn’t get tired of the same fight every time>Miyazaki likes designing maps in a vertical way, when they would normally spread horizontally (Stonefang, Valley of Defilement, Undead Burg, Blighttown, SoTE)
>>743403489>>743403537>>743403652
>>743404072>SCE Japan Studio’s Takeshi Kajii faced much opposition from Sony's management, trying to dissuade him from releasing Demon's Souls, but Kajii did it anyway>Because of the action RPG style, people simply expected it to handle in the same as Dynasty Warriors / Sengoku Musou>Maiden in Black received a more “unique” name in the EN releases, she shares her Japanese name with the Firekeepers of Dark Souls. Her Japanese name is "黒衣の火防女">Miyazaki: I’m deeply fond of the Old Monk boss, who summons a black phantom. The whole idea of summoning another player to be your boss was amazing to achieve. There were so, so many bugs because of him... The debugging staff told me to stop!>The text in messages can only be selected from premade words and phrases so they didn't have to make any profanity or safety settings>there are two areas that were meant as ‘places of evil intent.’ The first one is the Tower of Latria (man-made evil) and the second is the Valley of Defilement (natural evil)>they wanted the dragons that you encounter at the beginning of the game in 1-1 to be the final obstacles to overcome after your long journey>Souls online co-op/invader mechanics was inspired by the time he was trapped in a snow storm and some random car helped pushed his car into the road and just drove off without saying a word>Each boss has a concept that can be described very simply. The Maneater, for instance, can be summed up by saying “there’s another enemy.”>Shrine of Storms defined as “a shrine of the dead, praising a hero of a pagan religion,”>“So many people queried why we needed an online aspect to the game if we weren’t planning on allowing people to form a traditional quest party”, explains Kajii.>Miyazaki joked: “When I talked to Mr. Kajii regarding the approach to developing Demon’s Souls design and story, I understood that I could make my ‘favourite game’ (laughs).”
>>743404268>enemies have fixed placements: this is the result of design choices that favour giving you a sense of accomplishment, learning by dying. In other words, even if you die and lose all your souls (making you unable to level up), you can try again because you remember where the enemies are placed.>DeS three main points were "The world of dark fantasy", "Swordfighting Action RPG", "Exploration, discovery, strong enemies, strategy">In Demon’s Souls, they tried to implement some features (World Tendency, Soul form which cuts your health in half) in a kind of experimental way, not being sure whether or not it would be popular, but did it anyways so that could see how people reacted>From a marketing perspective, Demon’s Souls is a project that should have never been initiated>Shuhei Yoshida, a 30-plus-year Sony veteran and renowned software developer, thinks DeS is crap based on an early build that he's shown, and drops all Sony support for it>完成間近の段階でDemon’s Soulsを2時間ほどプレーしたが、2時間後にもプレーを開始した時と全く同じ場所に立ったままだった。>「これは駄目だ。信じられないほど酷いゲームだ」と感じて、プレーを止めてしまったよ。>I played an almost finalized version of the game for about 2 hours, but 2 hours after having started playing I was still standing there at the same location.>"This is terrible. It's an incredibly awful game.", I thought to myself, and stopped playing>Sony Japan localization specialist Yeonkyung Kim has admitted that the company’s decision not to publish cult dungeon crawl Demon’s Souls worldwide was an error>From Software operates on, basically, the feeling of “we make games that we want to make”,>Shirogumi developed the Demon's Souls cinematics/FMVs
>>743387483dark souls is a lot more hopeful than it appears tbhf
>>743387483>edgythey grew up in 80s>hopiumthey grew up in 60s
>>743387483>It seems like a lot of their media is intentionally dark and depressingBecause living there IS dark and fucking depressing. Have you ever visited places on google maps slightly off the tokyo center? Its a fucking mess. They look like american towns without any of the benefits. Most of the houses look like they dont even have clean water and power. And the villages are absolute fucking isolated with 0 jobs so you cant even escape to the more rural areas.So you're forced to live the city life which is soul crushingly depressing and awful.
>>743388306>Waragi: I remember when I was drawing the Undead Dragon, I submitted a design draft that depicted a dragon swarming with maggots and other gross things. Miyazaki handed it back to me saying, "This isn't dignified. Don't rely on the gross factor to portray an undead dragon. Can't you instead try to convey the deep sorrow of a magnificient best doomed to a slow and possibly endless descent into ruin?"Then he made DS3 which has some of the most disgusting enemies I've ever seen in a video game.
>>743404549and then he made bloodborne which has maggot pus-filled vagina demons of bloody menstruation abortion rape
>>743404317Demon's Souls Cut Content>Tutorial was slightly differenthttps://www.nexusmods.com/demonssouls/mods/65>Shrine of Storms Beta Versionhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR4-PdynY1g>Northern Limithttps://www.youtube.com/@valer8-DeS/videos>Tell Allhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNWuz02I170>Unused Winged Penetratorhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pqExbAl6PM
>>743387483What I really want answers to is why their take on fantasy always amounts to "kill god" when they are in no way blasphemous or sacrilegious in real life.
>>743387483who fucking cares
>>743387483At least 75% of all JRPGs is saving the world with the power friendship.
>>743404698“When we first demo’d Demon’s Souls at the Tokyo Game Show it was nothing short of a disaster,” explains Kajii. “People were initially excited about the idea of a dark fantasy game, but they were so critical of the gameplayIn part, this alienation derived from the slow pacing of the game, which, in its condition that players think before acting, requires some adjustment. While many claim the game is difficult, in reality it’s just unforgiving. For those who approach the game with the correct mindset, it’s both fair and rewarding. Fools rush in. “We were sure we went too far in this,” says Miyazaki. “The team kept waiting for Sony to tell us to rethink our approach but that instruction never came.” Kajii explains: “At Sony we try to deliver games that can touch the widest possible number of users, so there was a critical decision to be made: do we to ask From Software to make the game more accessible, or do we let the team pursue the creative road it set for this project? Of course, we chose the latter and, mercifully, it was the right decision”But the decision was not a wholly altruistic one, as Kajii admits: “In truth, that we could allow the project such creative freedom was thanks to fortunate timing and release schedules. In that sense, we were lucky. This is not the kind of game that companies can generally afford to make without a perfect storm of good timing, skilled individuals and management willingness to take a risk.”The theme of risk permeates the game itself, where players are constantly tested, and the stakes are continually raised. “Initially the plan was to have the game feature perma-death, where death of the character would result in the save file being erased,” Kajii laughs. “We all agreed we probably went too far with that. But it demonstrates the lengths we went to in exploring the meaning and mechanisms of death in the game when tuning that rewarding feeling the game was supposed to provide”
>>743404884In an interview with Game Informer back in 2012, Yoshida gave more detail on Sony's decision not to localise Demon's Souls for the west, admitting that he didn't get the appeal at first."For my personal experience with Demon's Souls, when it was close to final I spent close to two hours playing it and after two hours I was still standing at the beginning at the game," he recalled at the time. "I said: 'This is crap. This is an unbelievably bad game.' So I put it aside. Due to the game's high difficulty and negative early playtests, Sony decided not to localise Demon's Souls for an English language release. Instead, in the US the game was published by Atlus and in Europe publishing was handled by Bandai Namco.Speaking to the Sacred Symbols podcast, former SIE president Yoshida explained that Sony wanted to work on the sequel to Demon's Souls with FromSoftware, but the developer turned it down and instead decided to work with Bandai Namco on what would become Dark Souls. "FromSoftware was already working on the sequel, but they were so disappointed with how PlayStation treated them, we wanted to work with them again but they passed on it," Yoshida claimed.Sony would eventually work with FromSoftware again some years later with the PS4 exclusive Bloodborne, something Yoshida said he was happy to see."We have huge respect for Miyazaki and we were able to work with them again," he said. "Bloodborne is one of his best games." "Luckily, third party publishers, Atlus in North America and Namco in Europe [stepped in], and it really became a great hit outside of Japan. We definitely dropped the ball from a publishing standpoint, including studio management side. We were not able to see the value of the product we were making."
>>743404718Because God isn't owned by you as a concept you religious nutcase. God in this case would be the ultimate power. We're harnessing ourselves - we're harnessing power. Who's to say we aren't the moral center of the universe if everything in our lifetime started and ends with us?
>>743387483They like european medieval stuff from which Berserk takes inspiration. Then Berserk inspired a lot of the darker modern stuff like Dark Souls and Dragon's dogma
>>743404432I'm not seeing it man. I mean some of the buildings look kinda run down, but even in nicer places around where I live there will just be some old building left to rot. And everything looks so clean when I was looking around, and everyone seems to have a well tended flower garden or pots of flowers outside their house.
>>743387483>What the hell guys?>Some japs like to write hopeful stories and some like to write depressing stories??>Its like they're humans or something
>>743405006You will go to prison in Japan if you scratch your initials on a torri gate. Even in its current secular state Japan still clearly has a lot of reverence for religion as an institution.For me it's more about the fact that it always makes the world feel small if you can just murder everything of supernatural significance in it.
>>743405035It's like they took all the darker aspects of western fantasy and cut out the hope in spiritual renewal and a better tomorrow for which everyone is fighting for.
>>743405107No it's that the hopeful stories feel more overtly western inspired.
>>743404718>What I really want answers to is why their take on fantasy always amounts to "kill god" when they are in no way blasphemous or sacrilegious in real life.You're thinking of a sub-set of Shounen anime/manga as well as video games that borrow heavily from it. Often it's the same fanbase that consumes both so cross over is inevitable. It's angsty teen media for angsty teens, so it's both a power fantasy and what a 13 year old thinks is cool. The forerunners of this is shit like Megami Tensei, which created a world where all gods and demons exist and can be killed. But you don't kill Yahweh until SMT2. But you can see how influential this approach is.
>>743405108>For me it's more about the fact that it always makes the world feel small if you can just murder everything of supernatural significance in it.That world feels weirdly simultaneously big and small for me too, but for me it's not because I can kill everything. I can kill everything - so I too become or have supernatural significance. But yeah I truly think that killing god is one of those storytelling tools about harnessing ultimate power, overcoming yourself/something. It's not necessarily about sinning for the sake of sinning.Look at god of war (the originals) for example. I know it's a western game but it's still a good example, kratos kills all of the gods in his attempt for revenge after many failed attempts at retribution and redemption. It isn't about being a sinner. He has motives, they may be wrong according to you the observer, but he isn't trying to be sacrilegious, he is exacting revenge in the third game. Before that - he tries to redeem himself by trying to rid himself of his nightmares and horrible past deeds by serving the gods in hopes that they would erase his memories and subsequently his feelings of guilt. There's more to the motivations of kratos the god of war than sinning, and there's more to the motivation in dark souls than only killing evil monsters / supernaturals/god and being sacrilegious, it's just way more convoluted and harder to see, but a message exists beyond simply sinning
>>743387483>It seems like a lot of their media is intentionally dark and depressingmajority of their mainstream shit is romantic melodramas, and romantic comedies. dark and depressing media just gets popular outside of japan.
>>743400973NTA but that's because it was a collaboration between from and George R. R. Martin who is way more into moral greyness alongside sympathic aspects for characters, even if the overall arc of morality in his stories does still tend towards good, if hard fought and costly good, in the end.
>>743405824So it's that fat fag's fault?
>>743405945In a senseBasically the start of ER's story came from Miyazaki reaching out to George to write for his new game, leading to the two of them having long conversations about their shared passion for old pulp fantasy and feeling each other out on how to make the world.Then after that George wrote a timeline leading up to The Shattering (George bakes a shit ton of characterization and intention into his timelines) and then From took it from there drastically warping it into their house style and making the Elden Ring we know.What remains can mostly be seen in how the Demigods are more fleshed out characters compared to the more symbolic and abstract characters the bosses are in the other Souls games.
>>743405824It feels like GRRM designed the demigods with the idea that the players could form allegiances with them to advance their vision for The Lands Between. Certainly that's exactly what you do with Ranni exclusively, and we know there was originally a planned Miquella ending as well.Miyazaki has no idea how to make and RPG where the player has any actual agency in that way, though, and everything just ends up feeling like a murderhobo sim.
>>743387483ps2 rock band guitar hero algorithm
>>743406350I WANT MY FUCKING MIQUELLA ENDING.
>>743406559Sorry Anon, Armored Core 6 did too well, so the Elden Ring DLC team rushed it so they could all go make their own games.
>>743406710FUCKDon't worry *huffs a massive rip of copium*, they're gonna revive him for Elden Ring 2 *HUFFFF*, and then we'll get a Miquella ending and I get to be with my husbando *dies of copium overdose*.I can't tell if this is cringe or funny but fuck it we ball.
>>743406710Also is armored core good? Maybe I should play that.
>>743406984Armored Core has radically better writing than anything Miyazaki has ever made.
>>743407096Oh so it has actual writing?
>>743387483They don't think its doomer. Buddhism is all about how things are transient and impermanent and it is in the nature of things to end, and keeping them around past their point of expiration is immortal. Letting things end is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. Stop trying to hold onto ephemera.
>>743407156Yeah, Miyazaki set up out the groundwork on the project and then let other people in the studio make it, and they in turn made a real plot with a branching story choices and a bunch of charismatic mecha pilots.
>>743407182I don't like Buddhism. If I like any Eastern religion it would probably be Taoism, but I actually don't know enough about that to make a true judgement call.
>>743407387Daoism also tells you to let things go.
>>743407459But it's more like cycles and whatnot. Budhism is like, "let go of everything in life so you can achieve Nirvana and join some sort of unified consciousness, where you have no will, desire or agency and this isn't just dying becasue... uh... IT JUST ISN'T OKAY!"
>>743407789>unified consciousnessthat’s hinduism
>>743407823Whatever, it's all the same crap.
>>743407789Unified Consciousness is more Hindu or Western Esotericism.
>>743407789The important thing that gets missed in the western understanding of it is that your not meant to actively seek out the destruction of attachments, you just meant to not get hung up on shit after it happens.Its the religious equivalent of that friend who after a breakup tells you "Don't sulk around, remember the good times and move on, there are plenty of fish in the sea".
>>743407823>>743407886>>743408128Okay I looked it up and the ideal of Buddhism is dying and staying dead, like literally, no more reincarnation you just cease to exist. I mean it's more to the point than that Hinduism, but damn that's retarded. No wonder Easterners are so easily dominated by tyrannical regimes, they just want to die.It all makes sense now.
never played modded dark spulswhat are some good dark souls modsprepare to die or remastered, doesn't matterpreferably ones that include the four kings great sword cuz that shit looked dope and im sad it got cut from the final game
>>743408556Non-existence is not a bad thing. Liberation from suffering is a euphoria beyond happiness or physical pleasure.
>>743408738>Non-existence is not a bad thing.Let's see Miyazaki prove that with suicide then.
>>743408556If your OP then I think I found the source of you confusion.In the east the cultural ideals surrounding good things is that they inherently cannot last forever, so the best thing is to let things run their course and find peace in the good time you had and fact that new things will come about.
>>743408738Blow your brains out then nigga, make sure to live stream it.>>743408867Yeah, I'm OP, maybe I just don't like the Asian way of viewing the world, I realize that I sound like a racist dickhead in that post and I am, but I really don't have any issue with Asians, it's not really my business or problem what they believe.I'm all about that "rage against the dying of the light" type shit.
>>743408867>inherently cannot last forever,agreed>so the best thing is to let things run their coursehell no, living like that is like not living at all
>>743409089It makes a lot of sense why you would bounce off of Dark Souls in particular then. Because in those games your job is as a ultimately heroic (in the classical sense) but still manipulated puppet pushed towards the raging outcome by outside forces, with said raging leading to the world getting more unstable and worse so that by time of Dark Souls 3 the world is a tatter of itself and the normally tranquil dark that's meant to peacefully shroud the world till the next cycle of light, has gone feral and stagnant while said light has been stretched so thin that its cannibalizing the ashes to stay lit.
>>743387483>Can someone explain Japanese culture to me? It seems like a lot of their media is intentionally dark and depressinglol
>>743408818>>743409089Suicide doesn't facilitate enlightenment. It just puts you back on the treadmill.
>>743409089>>743409340Gwyn raged against the Dying of the Light and look what it achieved.
Dark Souls is one of the most hopeful games of all time kys faggot OP
>>743409495Well my cope with Dark Souls was that if you went for the age of dark ending you were just acting as an agent of the natural order, which feels like more of a Taoist thing and accepting the cycles of nature, and I tend to like Taoism. The issue with Elden Ring is that there is no semblance of natural order. People pretend that Ranni's ending is a return to natural order, but the whole point of Thopp's barrier is that incantations empowered by outer gods and glintstone magic are fundamentally the same. Ranni's dark moon is just another outer god that wants to fuck with the lands between. I guess the whole Buddhist "ceasing to exist is cool actually" thing explains the whole "offer Miquella forgiveness by fucking killing him" thing. I'm using the word thing to much.>>743409524Then go meditate until you cease to exist nigga, fuck outta here, you'll only find desire and suffering on 4chan.
>>743398263To be honest, you could say that’s a reference to Daniel in the lion’s den, he felt abandoned and alone and God told him not to and he would protect him. Pretty sure there’s some depictions of the story that look very similar to this. It’s what I thought of when I saw it.
>>743387483Every culture is multifaceted, you're dumb to assume everyone is making things in a similar manner.
>>743410152Yeah Elden Ring while following the same principles lacks a "dark period" in the same way the Souls universe has and instead the cycle is one of ones vision for what the world should be.Because thats what all the endings areEach Mending Rune is a vision of the future made under extraordinary circumstances by someone with a real vision for the world that you can then enact.Ranii's is to abstain from imposing a vision onto the world so that individuals can make their ownFracture is to repeat the previous cycle again but in a lesser state.And Frenzy is to reject the world by rushing to erase it all violently.Its actually a lot more western in that barring the nihilism of Frenzy you cannot escape the structure of the world as The Greater Will established in its formation. That of a shifting from one age to the next as dictated by a absent and unknowable will. You can only choose how you influence the future.
>>743403537>>743403489Most of the weapons and armor in Demon' s Souls is really solid and you could plop them down in Elden Ring and they'd look fine. Hell, it's only ONE generational difference. The issue of low resolution textures is mostly for the DeS environemtns.
>>743410497I don't see Miyazaki being a big bible or Rennaisance art guy myself. We know he lifts things right from the pages of Berserk, and will hand a page to an artist and say "draw something like this". If you look through the bars there, the image is 1:1 of that manga panel. A pitch black room with a beam of light shining on them.
>>743387483If you think Japan is dark you don't have much experience with eastern european writing. Let me guess, you played dark souls, and read berserk? That's probably about it.
>>743387483dark souls has always seemed hopeless, bleak, no clear direction for the world besides just killing whatever abomination comes at you next.
>>743387483So to summarize: 1. It's mostly high fantasy that does this. It's not Japanese culture, and if anything it's heavily drawn from Euro-American high fantasy sources. 2. There's a dash of Buddhism thrown in - most explicitly with Demon's Souls. 3. Most actual god damn Japanese media is sappy and sentimental and seems something the Americans would produce in the 40s. Total lack of irony and much of it is laughable. Think sappy melodramas, and romance stories. The Koreans, Chinese, and Taiwanese, make the same kind of media.Media like Dark Souls, that tends to be popular outside of Japan is the exception not the rule. Manga art is explicitly tryin gto be weird and different. You can tell someone is only exposed to Japanese anime-manga-games by how they think the "Japanese write". Hell, I was told that Tomino's writing is "typically Japanese", when no, most Japanese do not write wooden autistic weirdos.
>>743411163Actually I just played Dark Souls, Elden Ring and DMC 1, 3, 4 and 5. Also I watched Pokemon when I was a kid.
>>743411078>Rennaisance art guyThen what's up with all the barefoot people?
>>743411250Is Dark Souls popular in Japan?
>>743411163>eastern european writingEveryone knows Slavs are terminally depressed, they don't even try to hide it, heck they seem to enjoy it.
>>743412329>Is Dark Souls popular in Japan?Pretty popular as far as games go. But there's been a trend away from console and PC gaming, towards mobile games and shit. >>743411579He has a cutesy "kawaiii" view of women and likes these child like women.
>>743412982>towards mobile games and shit.A sad trend across the world.
>>743391059Berserk is so much more than that. It's at it's core a story about love, hope, and companionship. It's by far my favorite piece of media of all time, but it's kind of difficult to get into since it intentionally throws you off from the start.The protagonist seems very cold, dull, angry, and bitter at the start. This deters a lot of people. But I PROMISE you that after volume 3, it all starts making sense. It uses extremely hopeless scenarios to highlight hope. It uses loneliness and struggle to highlight companionship, comradery, etc. It uses themes to contrast different themes. There's always a reason for the protagonist to continue onward. Always something to fight for. Please read it. It'll give you some insight into Japan's views of despair, hopelessness, and uplifting themes. It's one of the best stories of all time.
>>743413907I don't know why, but I just get the feeling that all his companions die in horrific ways.
>>743413956Everything done in the story is completely intentional. Like I said, it uses things to contrast other things. Read it and you'll find out exactly what I'm talking about.
>>743413907I feel that the story mostly stops once they go on the quest to find the god damn ISLAND, so it's about 15 years of dicking around and filler. Then the story starts back up again once Guts gets to the island, and he has to make actual moral choices. Guts for like 15 years felt like a side character in his own manga, where he just reluctantly swung a sword around. The Sea God story arc was especially pointless. Then Miura fucking died, meaning if he had just cut the nonsense out he could have finished the story before he died. I think 2010-2012 is a good natural place to end the story if you cut out the boat horse shit. When he died he left no notes, and only a vague outline to a friend or two and it tonally feels like a mess.
>>743413907>Please read it. It'll give you some insight into Japan's views of despair, hopelessness, and uplifting themes. It's one of the best stories of all time.Not very Japanese, because Miura at some point read Nietzsche or took a college class on him or something. There's a lot of wangst among the cast about purpose and meaning to life, with Guts being the most clueless of them all. Miura wrote Guts to more or less be the Ubermench since he rises above the herd, is the opposite of the last man, and follows his own morality and has an indominable spirit.All the wangst about fate and meaning come from existentialism and Nietzsche, which the comic is dripping with.
>>743387483You shouldn't try to analyze a nation's culture based on having played only four or five games.
>>743414080So I think you're missing a bucnh if you just look at Miura, instead of his heroic fantasy movies he clearly took inspiration from (Conan 1982 literally starts with a Nietzsche quote for instance and a few characters and scenes are used in the comic). People mock Miyazaki for theft, but Miura was copying people 1:1 directly from movies into his comic. Guts as the Ubermench is a bit on the literal side, since he's literally a warrior. But the storyline with Jill shows that Ubermench is not just about physical strength. A lot of people think "Lost Children" is pointless, when it's actually the thematic core of the entire story even if it's literally a side story.The other major influence for Guts is of course, the historical Gotz von Berlichen, and of course Kenshiro with his strong compassion and indominable spirit for justice.
>>743414138That's why I'm trying to have people explain it to me, it just feels weird to me. The main culprit seems to be Buddhism.
>>743414019The boat arc in retrospect wasn't all that bad. It was bad when Berserk was being published at the time. I mean, it took like 15 fucking years. But it was a comfy arc, and it served its purpose.Miura was completely lost and unfocused at the time and the boat arc reflected it. It seems natural for the characters after all that they've been through. >Guts for like 15 years felt like a side character in his own mangaBerserk has always been about characters. Guts is a part of an ensemble of characters. Sure, the manga is focused on him, but it doesn't mean that it's primarily focused on him. I don't know though, I've never thought that way about the manga. I'm still really iffy about Mori. So far, the last 2 chapters have been shitty and unfocused. The art that the team made is so bad. There will never be another Miura unfortunately.
>>743387483>So what's the deal with that? Do the Japanese really like doomer depressing themes or is my exposure to Japanese culture just really skewed?Believe it or not it is an entire country with people of diverse backgrounds, interests, and tastes that span a spectrum. The point of dark souls is to be a somber isolated feeling in the ruins of an ancient land of the gods where your choices are to eventually get slaughtered and brought back so many times you lose your will and become a hollow, or you fight through a bunch of cryptic shit to get offered the choice to light yourself on fire or moonwalk away from the situation, both choices result in you winding up right back where you started.
>>743414268>The boat arc in retrospect wasn't all that bad. It was bad when Berserk was being published at the time. I mean, it took like 15 fucking years. But it was a comfy arc, and it served its purpose.It was a complete waste of time, and my strong suspicion is that Miura was afraid to end the story and had no clear conclusion to it, so he started stalling for time. and he went full "idol master" by adding Isma, a character who is literally an anagram for "imas" (idol master). She's completely pointless, and was never in any danger, and more importantly learned fuck all. Compare her to Jill above, who has a full story arc and was put into real danger. During this time, Guts makes no real choices and is never really threatened. He swings a sword around and cuts some monsters. Big whoop. It has no stakes and none of it matters. Only after when Casca is cured and Griffith returns does he face actual obstacles and moral choices again. But then Mirua died.
>>743390772I think you see some similair themes in chrono trigger or ff6. In chrono trigger, the stakes are high - lavos could blow up the planet and kill everyone, but theres hope, friends, redemption, and contrasts the sad moments with optimism. Bright and colorful art, and music that experiences the range of emotions, not just 'epic battle music'. In ff6, the world gets blown up. The second act takes place in the world of ruin. Despite this, you gather your friends, and go defeat kefka. You never give up.
>>743414607So to loop it around: Miura got this framework from Nietzsche, and then Miyazaki got it from Miura. Almost everything related to Dark Souls comes from Berserk. I remember the threads around 2009-2011 where people were saying designs and elements from Demon's Souls looks like something ripped right from a page from Berserk and the counter was "Miura didn't invent dungeons, dragons, or iron maidens!". Then it kept getting mroe and more brazen, and we got interviews where Miyazaki says he would just take a page from Berserk and show it to an artist and say "draw something like that".
>>743414812And the interview, Miyazaki says that the design for the Onion Knights comes from Bazuo. I personally would not have made the connection if Miyazaki didnt' say it outright like that. Which makes me wonder if there's more subtle designs taken from Berserk we haven't noticed?I know Balder knights are a ruined version of Guts armor from his time in the Band of the Falcon.
Japanese people don't do drugs. They don't have religion. They barely have crime. They barely do politics. I think it's less that people in Japan are more miserable, and more that if you are miserable in Japan you don't really have options to make it hurt less
>>743387483Yeah because bing bing wahoo and all their other moegarbage is so dark. Its called creativity you retard. And isnt exclusive to them.
>Can someone explain Japanese culture to me?godless ant society, built around overwork, responsible for spreading the turbocancer of tranime all over the world and spawning sub 100 iq soulless husks that think watching cartoons is somehow deep and make it their whole personality while also making it painfully obvious to everyone around them that cant help but cringe at the sight
>>743387483I think Demon's Souls and Dark Souls were really earnest takes on a generic western fantasy setting but From's sensibilities are just so strange. And also >>743389087 the generic western fantasy plot ended a long time ago before the darksign showed upI was late to play DeS and I liked how it drove home that magic (and all of your level ups) came from the O1 like Lavos, and the same boss souls could be made into offensive spells or defense/utility miracles.
