This is aesthetic deception.
>>743399316Coyote time is objectively good game design. It's a quality of life improvement to fix the issue of players jumping too late and making large jumps off smaller platforms. You cannot argue against this. Pretty much every platformer today has this feature.End of discussion.
What's aesthetic deception?
>>743399872matthewmatosisslop
>>743399872A buzzphrase used by video essayist spergs who need to stroke their own ego by masquerading as scholars of video game design.
>>743399316What? It was probably some committee decision to add double jump to fucking everything these days
>>743400136>retard thinks it's double jumpYour gaming opinions don't matter
>>743399316>makes a video entirely to autistically obsess over a minor feature in platformersthe mick will never be a gamedev, where's the fucking bloodborne video
>>743399316You don't really have to worry. It's like that because everyone expects it to be like that. That sort of collective instinct can drift over time. Like one platformer might make the distance a bit shorter, and that game blows up in popularity. And then other platformers follow it's lead. Then another makes it even shorter, etc. And eventually we're back to basically nothing.
you've been good. have a concept
Coyote time is good game design, like buffering inputs, you don't notice when it is done well but if it is a sentence you'll really notice.You can't perceive depth and distance in games like you do irl, and the point after which you stop being "on" a platform is often arbitrary, so it helps make your gameplay feel consistent.
>>743399316it was a concession to the 2010s with their consoles with 140ms input time and their televisions with 160ms input time tooit's not necessary today
>>743399696almost every game also had microtransactions
>>743400440framegen adds a shitton of lag these days
>>743399696Quality of life is not inherently a good thing.
>>743399696Coyote time has a place in 3D platformers, because it's often harder to judge exact distance from a ledge due to your character (or their flat circle shadow) blocking your point of view. The best example is the Tony Hawk's series which has obvious coyote time where you can ollie just after your wheels have all left a ramp or pipe, and many goals are designed around abusing this and extra-height jumps (no complies/boneless) to get as much height as possible. It makes a lot less sense in a 2D game where you can see with pixel perfect accuracy exactly where the character is, how far the jump is, and how close you are to the edge.
that's been a thing since donkey kong country lil bro
Is this dogshit thread going to be made every day?
>>743401494HE POSTED IT
>>743401029It's more about compensating for latency than making the game easier. If you press the button when you can still see the character on the platform, but the game is ahead of what's shown on screen and the character is already in the air, it'll feel like total bullshit that he didn't jump even though you pressed the button at the right time (from your perspective).
>>743399872Fagtuber making shit up so they can feel validated when their fagwords gets used by other people
>>743400643Rule of Cool > Aesthetic HonestyCase in point.
>>743399872When the visuals of a game don't accurately reflect the reality of interactions within the game. "Invisible walls" are the most common and obvious example.
>>743399872it's a term you come up with when you have to come up with a video essay to justify the existence of your Patreon
Why do so many people in these threads hate coyote time in games?
>>743403348Invisible Walls in SM64 have a proven cause and arent the devs being dishonest, just fuckups.
>>743399316it’s a crutch for shitters and bad game design
>>743399872When they look like a dude but aint gotta dick
>>743403895Roll jump is an intended mechanic. A nornal step off the ledge in DKC does not give you a window to air jump. If a game wants to implement "coyote time" then the maps should be designed around it or there needs to be an input to execute it.If a game has double jumps, and the "coyote time" consumes the air jump, than it is not actually coyote time
>>743403895It feels like the game is looking down on me. Like "aww, little buddy couldn't quite figure out the timing window. that's okay little guy. close enough. have a free air-jump, on the house :^)"Like fuck you game, I don't need your handouts, especially if you're going to make them so obvious. I can beat you on the terms presented, and without your charity.
>>743399316Your mom is aesthetically deceptive.
>>743404596>"I WISH MORE OF MY BONES WERE BROKEN"!"*wiggle wiggle*"
>>743399316I watched the video, I don't mean to be rude, but I genuinely don't understand why he bothered making it.[Spoiler]The Context Sensitivity one was really good though, I never looked at games the same way after finally understanding that one on my third watch.[/Spoiler]
>>743403348What's the point of the term then? That kind of thing can be good or bad or anywhere in between, nor is it some novel concept.
>>743399316Celeste is aesthetic deception because it was made by a tranny, and they can only copy and corrupt what they see, rather than create something that contains its own intrinsic value.Celeste is merely the idea of what the dev thinks a game SHOULD look like. It's a mockery.
>>743405340> rather than create something that contains its own intrinsic valueExplain.
>>743404596you have to use and abuse it to beat DKC, it's basically a mechanica better example of a weird and unintuitive implementation is in Celeste where screen transitions recharge your double jump. One of the secrets requires you to abuse this knowledge to ascend, but 99% of people would never even think of it because it's not needed for any other point in the game
>>743399316You aren't "deceiving" them, you're granting a mercy. Many games even advertise you can do this.
>>743403895Because their latest downloaded opinion says it's bad. No, they don't play platformers.
>>743405562>99% of people would never even think of it because it's not needed for any other point in the gameIs this awesome (cool trick for epic gamers only) or bad game design? I think "cool trick you can pull off, possibly due to an oversight" feels different than "grace period extended to players who press the button too late". Established mechanics that the game expects you to use are not even in the same category. Then it becomes a question of communicating those mechanics to the player.
I think Coyote Time is ok, it doesn't make a game worse for having it, or for being absent, classic Mega Man doesn't have it and it plays just fine.
>>743404223This is the part people always deliberately ignore. "coyote time" is fine when it's an actual rule of the moveset and the level design accounts for it. It's retarded when it's just a hidden pity buffer slapped on top of sloppy collision/momentum so the player doesn't notice the controls feel like ass.DKC roll jump is basically a move. Celeste neutral jump/dash tech is a move. "you walked off a ledge but the game pretends you didn't for 8 frames" is not the same thing.
>>743405074Yeah, that's how I felt. I really have no clue what point he is trying to make at all.
>>743406374You can hand a pixel or 2 off a ledge in NES Megaman, it's not 1:1 to the thread's topic, but I count things like that if we're talking 'aesthetic dishonesty' for the SAKE of the player.
>>743403348That Sm64 clip is a rather bad example, because the invisible wall there is not because the developers intended it, but rather a consequence of number truncating, and how the game's walls/ceilings are implemented. They might have noticed it in a few odd places during development, but not often enough to rewrite things to prevent it.
why not just say "visual deception""aesthetic" is a weird way to put it
>>743406786Or just a single word: verisimilitudeVideo games often bend the truth behind various abstractions (health points, for example), instead of seeking to present everything in a more realistic manner
Actually this is a case of mechanical approximation, that is to say, it's the logical rules that followed the visual representation. Videogames tend to be simulations, however abstract, which means that the specifics of "physics" are tweaked until they match with the designed level and desired "feel" of it all.One cannot pin lenient jumping on "aesthetics", since it's not that every ledge is secretly one invisible tile longer. It's mechanics that were changed from straightforward logic "you cannot jump in midair" to "a few frames after stepping off a ledge you can still jump". That by itself is another concession due to other mechanics, not aesthetics, specifically rigid yet simple system that defines "stable ground". As long as any part of the player character's bounding box touches ground, player is standing, which incentivizes jumping off at the very last moment to move as far as possible in the air.Subscribe to my blog for more abstract drivel.
>>743399316Nope. It is aesthetic truth.It follows the grand narrative established by its forerunners, which over time became an aesthetic concept, then became an aesthetic ruleset.It even became an aesthetic automatic, in which games don't even ask you to manually jump, they do it for you because it has been so ingrained in the minds of players that the alternative, actual precision jumping, takes multiple attempts to learn.It is the kind of truth that you can't refute.
>>743399316If i was a youtuber essayist i'd just try and coin shit all the time, why not? "You can't just make shit up" but in the time you've spent replying i've already won, you've wasted your time. I call this post-achronism
>>743404113>>743406683I don't think "deception" in this instance implies intention or malice. Even though it's due to a programming oversight, the game's visuals are communicating something untrue about the game: it looks like there's no wall there, but there is. It's just an example of how that can prove detrimental to the player, especially in a game like Super Mario 64, where there's so many of them. And yes it's a well-documented quirk of that game.And sometimes invisible walls are intentional, like the ones to prevent you from going over a wall and falling out of bounds. I think at best you could call those a concession to the level designers. One of the weaknesses of the video is that it's framed as though "aesthetic deception" is always a bad thing, when sometimes its implementation is justified or necessary. Or unavoidable.
>>743407867Sure, it's just in SM64's case specifically, it might as well be called a bug (or unintentional feature). Developer intentions vs player expectations are a whole topic in and of itself, and I think the video does a bad job at arguing (or seeing) how or why certain decisions are made, and attempts to give the topic a poorly thought out title. Don't even get me started on fighting game hitboxes.Reminds me of how Egoraptor tried to use the word "conveyance" back in the day.
>>743407867>when sometimes its implementation is justified or necessary. Or unavoidable.example? How would it ever be better to have an invisible wall rather than a redesigned environment?
>>743399316I wish there was this gif but not slowed down.
>e-celeb dick suckers all sit around jerking their youtube man all day>EVERY>DAY>FOR>FREEKill yourselves.
Any way to tie Celeste to Saudi Arabia so the GDQ trannies kill themselves on stream?
>>743405562Bullshit secrets aren't a new concept
>>743410721I refuse to believe these people are older than 20. It'd be pretty sad otherwise.
>>743399316>8 years later and still seething
>>743399696Coyote time is shit game design and there's a reason only bad platformers use it.
>>743410775Sorry zionist, all slims are cool.
>>743411051try over a decade after his 5th movie will never be made.
>>743411210Celeste has 60,422 reviews on Steam (Also on consoles btw)Pizza Tower has 45,180 reviews on Steam (Also on consoles btw)Super Mario Bros Wonder has sold 17 million copiesYour worldview has been thoroughly destroyed, have a nice day.
>>743400485>almost every game also had microtransactionsEurofags looked into this. 85% of modern AAA has not. Indie has not. Nintendo has 0.So if you zoom even further out, 99% of games dont have mtx.
>>743412826Gonna need to see that report because plenty of indie and Nintendo games have DLC, are they judging strictly on a in-game currency system?
>>743400679>t. elitist fuckwad
>>743409664NTA, but I suppose in game development you might find that a combination of specific movement tricks allows you to climb up to a place that was thought to be inaccessible, but in doing so you get stuck and can't escape. If the game is close to release and about to ship, adding an invisible wall or two might be a quick band-aid solution, since you don't have to touch any of the stage visuals to accomplish it.I think that's generally how a good chunk of invisible walls end up in games.
>>743411741Does Wonder have coyote time? Don't think most 2d Marios do, but I haven't played most of the New Super Mario Bros. stuff or Wonder.
>>743399872modern art
>>743400023I disagree. Drawing cheap pixels masquerading as art is real ego stroking. Only DEI, Jeets and Jews do this. White men and Jap men put effort into art.
Platformers are inherently a ridiculous genre. Like there are people in platforming game worlds whose whole job is to just cover everything in spikes. Why the fuck is that guy nailing spikes to the wall? To instantly kill anyone who jumps at the wall, of course! Oh and my favorite "you missed the jump by 1 pixel so you fall in to a bottomless pit of death" like okay why doesn't that fat little fuck Mario just grab the edge? Because he's a lazy retard i guess. Anyway, when you accept the ludicrous nature of platformer game worlds then platformer games having Looney Toons shit where someone whose feet aren't even touching the ground being able to jump through sheer force of will is perfectly logical.
>>743414147All modern mario games have coyote time.
>>743400679>I can only enjoy a game if other people aren't as good at it as I am
>>743415316At what point was that introduced?
>>743415783Coyote time as we understand it was introduced in Odyssey. The games always had underlying mechanics to make platforming smoother though. You have to do those things to make your game not feel like shit to play.
>>743399316Matthewmatosis is the vidya equivalent of those youtubers who release "[x] in-depth analysis" videos and it's just them reading the Wiki synopsis of what they're talking about.
You think that's crazy? Wait til you realize Celeste girl's legs don't even work. That's just an animation, basically a GIF. She's actually a rectangle sliding along a smooth surface, or a 2d capsule shape perhaps.
>>743399316Sounds like the perfect description for troons
>>743415919he talks about this in the video
>>743409664Maybe not "better" so much as "understandable". Every level ideally would have pristine design avoiding invisible walls, but I'm willing to accept that it might not always have been practical or ideal. Like how Bob-omb Battlefield is surrounded by slopes on all sides, and instead of letting players climb over them and jump into the void, they put invisible walls on top of the slopes to keep players in bounds. They didn't want to leave the edges open for players to fall off the map to their deaths (fitting for a tutorial stage, it's the only level in the game where you can't), but enclosing the "horizon" with visible walls in every level where you want to have boundaries on the upper edges would produce a claustrophobic saminess to the levels that the course designers probably also wanted to avoid. So they're an understandable shortcut when used sparingly.
https://youtu.be/H7PgWg_i4EYExplain why this is bad.
>>743416006This is an eceleb thread? I knew we were shitposting, but I didn't realize it was THAT bad.
>>743406284>If tutorial no tell me how to>Me no do>Game bad
>>743399316Pretty crazy how in the 2010’s a shit game like this could somehow sell well. I am glad the indie honeymoon period is over.
>>743416137the post doesn't say that thoughever. Read it again, Grug.
>>743399872Smoke & Mirrors
>>743406510i wouldn't call it frames. maybe the ledge had invisible pixels
>>743416184Celeste is a really fun game.Strawberry Jam made me realise how thorough the movement is, it's great.
its okay when they apply this to the player character because the player cannot correctly interpret the surroundings of the character like you would in real life. You can feel the ground under your feet but you cannot in game. A reflex would kick in in real life.But this is not true for enemies, yet they still dont play by the same rules as the player character. When the rules of the world dont apply to enemies and they have unlimited mana or no cooldowns on their attacks when the player has these, it creates a discrapancy of the ruleset that feels naturally unfair.
>>743401029It can still be hard to judge exactly on which pixel of your sprite your collision with the ground/ledge ends, especially with different animations etc. I think it has similar effect in many 2d platformers, which is to say it makes the jump easier but also covers up for a design issue to smoothen the experience.
>>743399696The skill issue of players
>>743411741>my trooncore slop has it>the meme indieslop has it>the game made for children has itYou really thought you were making a point, huh?
>>743399316Metroid Prime Hunters has this.
>>743416082i don't think anybody actually cares beyond something that is affecting themselves. communities meant something for a long time, but now we're all pretending. probably because everything became so sectioned off so quickly, and humanity has instant communication throughout the globei can't pretend to give a fuck about my neighbor, how am I going to perform a care for somebody across the globe?but i do click the "donate $3" thing sometimes or "round up for charity", mom calls me a monster but i only am one, i don't act like it
>>743414068Alternatively, you leave it as is and if the player makes it there they are shit out of luck.God forbid we leave any sovl in our games.
>>743413062>>743415709kill yourselvesthere are enough games that pander to your kind already
>>743399696Should fps games have enemy bullets not damage you if you shoot them shortly after they shoot you?
>>743418054sounds like a interesting mechanic, someone should make a game with that as a base.
>>743418054>>743418204isn't that bloodborne
>>743405340actually he wasn't a tranny until he made the dlc (and immediately retconned the main character as a tranny)
>>743418521RESPECT HER PRONOUNS SHITLORD
>>743399872
>>743405074>>743406546Huh? The point is to give a name to a phenomenon he's observed uniquely in videogames that spans across every genre of game. Some of the examples demonstrate why this particular thing may want to be avoided, such as the clip of him sliding against the cliff in Uncharted, where the game is trying to provoke a feeling of danger, despite the mechanics of the game literally preventing any. How is this hard to get?
>>743407081>One cannot pin lenient jumping on "aesthetics", since it's not that every ledge is secretly one invisible tile longer.lmao wat
>>743407867>One of the weaknesses of the video is that it's framed as though "aesthetic deception" is always a bad thingI don't really think it is, but I'd agree if you'd said he didn't do a good enough job clarifying to the subhuman apes that are videogame essay watchers that you don't have to moralize everything and whether or not a mechanic is good or bad is entirely contextual to the game it exists in.
>>743417863Yeah you CAN do that, and then players will complain and call your game buggy and unfinished and it has a lesser chance of selling well.
>>743418875Did people actually watch this video and come away from it thinking he wishes you could shoot every NPC in EVERY game's head off in all situations?
>>743421536Nobody besides ds2babs watches his videos.
>>743399316Coyote time makes the game more fun and feel good and I'm simply not hearing anything else from you faggots
