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nothing to fix

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>>744106123
What A+ sandbox MMO have we had in the last 20 years? You can't think themeparks are the height of the genre, right? People want to live in a world.

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Legalize mods

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>>744106782
I mean albion online is actually fucking fantastic until you realize that (just like eve) it broke down into Russians and Brazilians running the place like a fucking cyberpunk dystopia

>>744106058
stop making them

>>744106058
Dead genre with nothing to fix. >>744106782
Clearly, nobody wants to live in a world, or they'd be playing some shitty MMO, but nobody plays them.

Nutriments nigger thread.

>>744106058
I dont think you can. A lot of the nostalgia was from the feeling of it being a chatroom with a game attached.

>>744106058
You don't. It was cool back then, when most of the internet was white, as well as average mmo playerbase, everyone was highly sociable and cooperative with each other, the community actually mean something back then, instead of just being bleak statistic and random people that run past you as you do grindy quests or whatever, you actually interacted with everyone back then. Now half of the mmo population are brown or bots, and even they don't they just don't care to interact with anyone, even guilds most of the time aren't giving you the solution to this problem since they often being as dead as the community of the game in general.

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Make them all illegal expect Elder Scrolls Online.

This is like asking how to fix horse and buggy or steam trains. The genre is antiquated and has run its course. The "fix" is not flushing development budgets in the hundreds of millions to make a game that will be dead in 6 months.

>>744106782
minecraft on a highpop server or some shit

>>744107176
I think people are happy enough with League and DOTA saturating the top-down market. You would need something revolutionary, something that can be marketed, something that isn't grinding for dozens of hours to fully enjoy what's basically MOBAs with travel and re-equip time.

>>744108095
Why? People obviously want an MMO (see Lost Ark and New World). Devs just have to figure out how to lastingly appeal to players.

>>744106058
just accept its dead
even genshin has multiplayer nowadays. Every game is trying to foster its own containment community to sell overpriced virtual junk to. When ur only selling point of a genre is that its multiplayer then good luck because 90% of modern games has it today.

>>744110298
?
Both of those games are dead as a doornail. One is shutting down.

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FFFXIV WON

>>744110536
lost ark peaked at 1,000,000 concurrent players on launch. the hype for a good MMO is there, it's just that nobody is delivering. you're either a lifelong wow/14/gw2/eso/osrs shill or you have nothing to play

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>>744106058
I think the biggest thing holding MMOs back nowadays is social media. In the past, MMOs were a great way to connect and chill with your friends, but then social media came around and offered that experience much more easily, and normies will always pick the path of least resistance. As long as social media exists, MMOs will never reach the same heights they did back in the early 2000's.

>>744106058
add voicechat

>>744110619
People keep saying, "The hype is there," then an MMo drops, number go up for a week, then it tanks. This will be the fate for all MMOs going forward

>>744110780
that's because all of these new mmos are p2w rugpulls or made for an audience that doesn't exist. go search "top upcoming MMO" on jewtube or something. there are a lot of MMO players just out there waiting for something good to come along. but most of them have been worn out by shit games like new world and p2w korean trash like lost ark, yet that's all MMO devs keep making

>>744109989
>I visited the steam page and otherwise know literally nothing about the game

>>744110858
The original MMOs were super kike paying for your Internet twice scams. This is on-course for the genre

>>744111021
i get what you're saying i just don't think you understand how deeply predatory and fucked up p2w slop has gotten these days
>f2p but 2 "optional" subscriptions
>multiple battle passes running simultaneously, each with a free (shit), $10 (lol poor, also shit), and $30 tiers
>cosmetics no longer acquirable in-game, they're all sold in the cash shop for 30-50 bucks (they're one time use and per-character)
>sub 0.1% RNG gear upgrades that some gook who spends 50% of his minimum wage job every week on bypasses
>in-game sanctioned RMT
and the list goes on. MMOs are in a dire spot.

>>744106058
>How would you fix the genre?
Closed ecosystems.

MMOs went to shit when they tried to get "bigger."
Nobody gives a shit when you're never going to see the person you're playing with again.
It's impossible for the players to self-moderate a non-existent community and the publisher is never going to put forward the resources to do it properly.
Content going from being locked behind community effort to being locked behind time and money sinks defeats the entire purpose of a the genre.

WoW worked so well in its early years because it required players to put in effort, for both gameplay and socialization, to see content past entry-level quests. Didn't want to learn the game? Have fun in the starting zones, retard. Pissed off everyone else? Abandon everything and start from scratch on a new server (better hope the new one isn't completely dead or overcrowded).

>>744108190
I wouldn't necessarily call the most popular MMOs living worlds, but MMOs are obviously popular. But, like I said, what A+ living world have we had in the last 20 years? New World came close with city ownership for taxes, but I wouldn't call it very good with all the problems it had. What are players supposed to do? Linearly grind ilvls until they max out gear and have nothing to do? That's the problem with every MMO. It's not a thriving economy living world.

The MMO genre is dead. The appeal 20+ years ago was the unique social aspect compared to just regular quick and dirty multiplayer lobbies in shooters. The strong online gaming community appeal was unique to MMOs.

Now everyone has the Internet in their pockets. Every game has a discord server. Communities are everywhere. Slower grinds are gone in favor of faster reward systems. MMOs are dead.

>>744106058
Whatever else you do, the first thing has got to be to keep all data and important calculations server-side.
There's no reason in 2026 to be offloading anything critical to client, and inviting more shady anticheats into the equation.

make the gameplay not complete dogshit

>>744108427
I know WoW would be more popular if it didn't phase players between servers. What nonsense. Phasing ruined Classic.

>>744111507
Noone who isn't playing WoW already would get into it now.
Newer gamers have newer stuff to pick up. Older gamers who aren't playing, didn't want to and never will.

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>dataminer fags
>min-maxxing fags
>third world brownnoids now have easy access to the internet
the MMO magic is never coming back

>>744108441
When did people ever mostly level with others? You grouped up with people to do a kill quest and then left group.

>>744108612
You could do that over and over again because people buy or play new MMOs in hordes.

The only thing you can do is download Ragnarok Online and play that. Everything else from this genre was low quality. Everquest, Runescape, and World of Warcraft are objectively bad video games.

>>744112017
the peak of "socialization" during vanilla wow was questing solo while using general chat or guild chat as a pseudo-discord
MAYBE doing the occasional dungeon

nutriments nigger thread

>>744112083
City of Heroes was good.
>n-no it wasn't, I-I-I'm MMO purist
Then go play UO.
>n-no, I
Then fucking go back to Lineage.
>.....
Pick a lane, fucker.

>>744112176
This is a thread on how to fix the genre, not get nostalgic about WoW, the game that ruined it

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>>744106058
REMOVE "aggro" mechanics from the game.

The party gameplay in an MMO has one serious problem: only one person is directly attacked. But if you never have to worry about damage, the game becomes extremely boring.
To compensate, encounter designers have to come up with the most ridiculous and convoluted mechanics, to the point the whole thing doesn't even feel like a real fight anymore.
Everyone should have to worry about surviving, even when not taking direct damage. This should be done through careful positioning (by introducing actual collision mechanics so the frontliners block the enemies' path), crowd control, manipulating the environment with things like spells and traps, etc.

>>744112338
Those sucked shit. Kill yourself today tranny.

MMO’s peaked with Guild Wars 1

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WE'RE SO FUCKING BACK

>>744106058
I've been playing with the /mmod/ guys for a while and I can say conclusively that an MSQ is the single worst thing you can put in your game, unless your name is Final Fantasy. Kingdom Hearts Online could get away with it, but your random korea/westslop cannot. Do not put an MSQ in your game.

The basis of the MMO is the "kill 100 bears" quest. If you make it fun to kill 100 bears, your game will be fun. If you don't make it fun to kill 100 bears, your game will never be fun. "Fun" is an extremely complicated sensation and there's no specific formula you can follow to create it. In one game it might take 2 hours to kill 100 bears, plinking away at them 1 at a time with shitty animations etc. etc. and that game it might be fun to kill 100 bears. In another game you might have the greatest action RPG system ever created and you're comboing bears and parrying them and doing a bunch of flashy attacks and your harvard-educated psychologists have perfectly determined how much HP each bear should have, and it still might not be fun, it might just be a slog.

Fun lives in simple things. Pressing lots of buttons is fun and pressing 1 button over and over again can also be fun. It's not usually fun to mostly hit 1 button but also hit 2-3 other buttons every few seconds, then it feels like a chore.

The trinity exists for a reason and that reason is to make it feel good to group up because everyone understands what they're doing. When designing your grouping system, you must 100% make it easy to tell what each player is supposed to be doing. That doesn't mean their jobs have to be simple, just that it needs to be very clear.

Alts are the #1 cause of me quitting a game. If I have more fun making alts than playing the game, I will quit. No matter what, with no exceptions, your game should be designed so that making alts is boring and doesn't lead to anything rewarding compared to playing the same character.

Also, friend lists / guilds must be shared account-wide.

>>744108658
How many players fit in one seamless world?

>>744106058
Digital ID requirements and easy access 'report player' functionality. Also mandatory LFG/group finder/matchmaking.
>play game badly with randoms
>get reported
>impacts your actual (social) credit rating

>>744112504
Oh also make the map small. 100000% of MMOs fail on this step. "Massive" does not mean the map should be big. It means the world should feel full. Your game becomes bigger when the map is smaller and players see each other more. I don't understand how I can play a game like FFXIV with millions of players and be totally alone in a map 80% of the time.

>>744110475
Massively multiplayer still is and will always be novel.

>>744110536
They set concurrent player records.

>>744110653
An MMO is a shared daydream.

Ban people who openly advertise any sort of RP outside RP servers.

>>744106058
>focus on world simulation and community building rather than borrowing ideas from session-based games, like seasonal content, battle passes, rating grind etc
>encourage and reward players interaction with the world and each other, minimize menu-based interaction
>encourage and reward grouping (like giving a boost to XP and loot drop chance depending on group size)
>make the overworld actually dangerous and reward exploration
>have non-instanced content out in the world that would be competitive with instanced ones
>limit instant teleportation and similar traversal options
>have effects on server-wide events actually be permanent
Ur welcome, mr. aspiring MMO developer

>>744110660
New World did this, and it was really good.

>>744110780
becasue they release shit without any end game. people will rush levels, realize there's fuck all to do and then quit adn then word spreads and people don't even bother. This has been the story of nearly every fucking MMO in the past 10 years.

>>744112607
I feel like mmo maps should be bigger if anything. like it should be possible for someone to play an mmo for 10 years and there still be zones/areas they've not been to
The problem I see with modern mmo zones is that there's no/minimal reason to go back to them once you've leveled past them or the expansions over. Imagine if everyone just left Westeros when the Essos expansion comes out. It's completely unimmersive

>>744110475
It's dead because developers don't realize an MMO should be a virtual world first and a game second, no other genre is going to replace that.

>>744112492
I miss holding halls. I remember when Starcraft was the first person to get R15 and them using that emote. I wanted nothing more than to be in and playing with [GANK].

>>744112504
They can add a story but don't make it mandatory to unlock shit unless it's like cosmetics. if you force people to do some shit ass fucking story to unlock stuff they actually want to do they'll just quit instead,especially if the MMO is new.

>>744106058
Normies don't want to hear it, but mmos need to stop being made to appeal to literally all eight billion people on the planet.

They used to be slow, have lots of friction, and absolutely disrespected your time.
That's part of what made the social aspect so strong.
When you're gonna be in the barrens for the next twenty hours, you can be sure everyone else is too, you have loooots of time to party up for random shit or just shoot the shit in chat.

This doesn't happen in modern wow because leveling is seen as a chore.

>>744106058
>How would you fix the genre?
Region block China and Russia from all mmos

Release an MMO that actually wants you to play it. Every fucking game nowadays seems to do everything possible to ensure you play is the least amount possible.

>>744110780
You can't honestly think the genre with the most social identity and freedom to be anyone and do anything is doomed.

>>744112792
The absolutely most random fucking complaint Ive heard and Im an old man
RPer are usually introverts who hyper seclude themselves. In what fucking reality are you being spammed down by RPers?

>>744110901
It has dozens of hours of leveling. People don't want mindless PvE when they can play MOBAs.

>>744113472
You've clearly never played FFXIV

>>744107176
Every MMO with open world PvP just devolves into this

>>744113380
Go play FFXI. Hardcore no life players literally recommend playing 16 hours a day

Also what the actual fuck are you talking about?

>>744111290
So, only server-based LFD and no phasing?

>>744113507
20,000 hours since the 1.0 beta
You’re making shit up, just stop looking at other tab on PF finder

Also clubs =/= rp

>>744113559
Warhammer online/Dark Age of Camelot
Planetside 1 & 2
Guild Wars 2 wvw
Foxhole

Aka any game where you dont let your players make custom factions

>>744111337
I think the solution to low motivation is making everything matter. Leaderboards, competitive gamemodes that don't require dozens to hundreds of hours of leveling. People will want to play with the best traders, PvEers, PvPers.

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>>744113653
>20,000 hours since the 1.0 beta

bullshit


You open PF, and it's literally all there front and center. You just know too that 98% of these people are running those plugins to make your character look like some freak. I hope to god evercold somehow kills plugins.

>>744112709
To what? Steam MMOs?

>>744111343
Is this easy to do?

>>744111863
There are like 200M new internet users every year. The PC gaming demographic is like 1.5B.

>>744106058
kill all ERPers

>>744113425
I do honestly thing that because this is exactly what's happening without exception.
>New MMO comes out
>"This time, the genre will be saved!"
>Number goes up
>Number goes down a month or two later
>Number goes to 1% within a year
>Game is shut down.

>>744106058
Remove anti poop-socking mechanics, if people want to no-life it at the risk of their own health, let them do it. Time-limiting shit can hold people back from doing things at whatever pace that is, even if it is a turbo-autism pace.

As a healslut, partyfinder is the best thing that ever happened to MMOs
Enjoy your 1 hour queues DPSfags

>>744113819
Content is automatically sorted to the top onionkun
Such a fucking random ass problem. There are like 10000 issues with ffxiv and you managed to bitch about the most inconsequential one

>>744111992
Like 50%-75% of the US is white. None of that matters.

>>744113903
The type of people who play MMOs are the type of people who have no problem poop socking. When you don't let them do that they'll move to something else.

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>>744112083
EVE is objectively good if you have a good corporation.

>>744113968
>There are like 10000 issues with ffxiv

Too bad none of them will be fixed with evercold. Enjoy being able to play even less with the all new automove and battle pass.

>>744114020
How can someone dress like that, look in the mirror and be like "YUP!, time to go out in public".

>>744114107
I accept you concession

>>744114140
I have a feeling he lost a bet or some shit

>>744114020
Holy based
I fucking KNEEL

>>744106058
only runescape feels like you're going on a journey

>>744114107
>automove
This is always the beginning of the end

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>>744106058
no game medications
no ERP

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>where's my frickin' butt slider then

>>744112176
Do people have enough involvement in Discords to completely overwhelm any interest in game chat? It's a game design problem, right?

>>744106058
Hub based like PSO.

>>744106058
Give each player control over multiple characters.

>>744114513
There's no real solution besides proximity chat, but people are very against it

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>>744112359
Fixing WoW is a worthy topic. The atmosphere and gameplay are peak.

>>744106058
Remove F2P model

>>744114020
eden zoolander edition

>>744114674
Add the mandatory story to unlock literally anything wasn't the right direction, that's for sure.

>>744112408
>Everyone should have to worry about surviving, even when not taking direct damage.
Don't they have to do that in most MMOs?

>>744114650
>oh no chen lu can speak english over the mic well
too fucking bad get gud

Kill instanced content and channels.

Add AI companions so you can do raids and shit without having to interact with other people.

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>>744112504
>"Fun" is an extremely complicated sensation and there's no specific formula you can follow to create it.
Motivation (fun) was solved in 1985. The height of intrinsic motivation (mastery, freedom of choice, and social identity) is the height of fun. You can get things (extrinsic motivation), but the really memorable experiences are doing things for their inherent enjoyability of shaping the world.

>In one game it might take 2 hours to kill 100 bears, plinking away at them 1 at a time with shitty animations etc. etc. and that game it might be fun to kill 100 bears.
Every design either detracts from or adds to quality.

>>744114756
Sort of, I guess?
In ffxiv at least bosses love to use attacks that hit the whole arena, but every healing class has one if not multiple instant party healing spells and/or party HoT healing spells, including ones that don't cost any mp, rendering "required" party wide damage little more than a nuisance unless you're doing the hard mode fights.
Even then, while I haven't played recently, I've heard that some bosses are even being cleared without any healers in the party.

>>744115191
"When given the choice to do anything I'll often do nothing." Tell me what to do, to a degree, or I'll just close the game and uninstall. A lot of people are like this too.

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>>744106058
1. Stop trying to find ways for casuals to enjoy the genre. All the problems with MMO started when the market decided that normies with 9-5 jobs, a family of 5 and real life hobbies must also play their games.
2. Remove beta realms and hire a team of professionals who would test the game before launch with signed NDA so the game is not minmaxed with tierlists and wiki shit before releasing.
3. Proximity voice chat.
4. PVP is not a side-thing, rape the PVE plebs, add sought after resources people must fight over, yet balance it in a such way that it doesn't turn into guild vs guild things where around 1% of the playerbase controls 90% of resources, MMOs meant to be a way to escape reality, and we already have the 1% thing IRL, so fuck it.
5. One server. All of these cunts are trying to spend the least amount of money possible on every aspect of the game, and the server separation is there not due to technical limitations, it's only there because it's cheaper.
6. Subscription-based model. Fuck the free-to-play niggers, it only causes issues with zoomers, cheaters, multiboxing niggers and all everything else. It also allows the game to generate revenue without adding battlepass garbage, in-store garbage, VIP fucking statuses and whatnot. Every single weapon skin, mount, feature must be aquired via in-game accomplishments.
7. Stop making the humans vs aliens-robots-demons clown fiesta, make factions, force conflict between them, give people the faction pride back.
8. Premabans for RMT, for both the seller and the buyer, same goes for pvp rating, PVE carry and so on. Also GMs that scout shit while invisible to ban bots gathering shit (or replace it with a system that would be as effective).

>>744112514
I don't think IDs are necessary to have a perfectly designed and fun game.

>>744106058
the genre is better than it's ever been, there's nothing to fix

>>744106782
>retarded everclone muhmorepigger nigger can't cope with the fact that gamers have moved on from their shitty niche subgenre of mmos to REAL mmos that aren't hindered by everclone muhmorepigger nigger bullshit nonsense
another day ending in -y

>>744115362
Some of your points are good. No VC though, nobody likes that shit and discord exists for the people who can't go 5 minutes without running their fucking mouth. If your game is going to have PvP make separate servers ,make certain events for PvP servers.

>>744112868
Stuff like fast travel is really iffy. I'd love to know the objectively best way to do travel. You need to design for full loot servers where you don't want people freely moving loot between zones and cities. But you should please regular PvE and PvP servers, too. I guess just make gathering and travel really immersive.

will max finish XIV now?

>>744112956
I think economy needs to exist to take over when PvE and instanced PvP are exhausted. Gold needs to be central, even if it's just watching a number go up or saving up for one favorite playstyle. The key is not letting people just repair their gear for gold. Requiring materials to repair equipment after death is key. Millions of people needing materials is *the* way to keep players on the edge of their seats, one of the most important aspects of immersion.

Subscription model, less quickslot focus and more input based combat, and further purchases beyond the subscription should only be expansions or cosmetics. Reward players for time and talent, not their mom's credit card. Make content that seamlessly puts players into groups so there's no awkward LFP spam. Only special bosses should be instance based.
And stop with the fucking mushrooms.

>>744115191
Whether you can model fun or not is irrelevant to the real-life implementation of fun. It's a problem of measurement. There are too many minute factors, and it's very easy (and I have seen it many times) for a game to do everything right on paper and still not end up fun. Because it's not just whether X contributes to fun, but whether it contributes to fun when mixed with Y, Z, or Y and Z, and nobody is good enough to do that all quantitatively. You have to implement fun by feel, even if you could objectively determine fun given infinite time.

>>744112998
You want few enough zones to make gathering competitive. Logistics is one of the most pivotal designs, and you have to prepare the world to be hostile and playful.

I wish we had a character action game with huge populations, always-on FFA, and fun power fantasy. Imagine a set that makes you a huge monster, terrorizing ore fields and fighting groups of players.

>>744113238
Agreed.

>>744113029
Just like with every genre, we're on the edge of really simple but really compelling innovation. For MMOs, it's making everything endgame, realistic NPCs that fight and trade for wealth and power, territory control, and a high velocity economy (infinitely purchasable lootboxes). People want to get rich and powerful

>>744113324
Without leveling, people would align more with activities they actually want to do and would feel more social because of having more in common with those around them. You just have to make the economy really fulfilling, like lucrative fishing.

How would you guys feel about something like Star Sector but as an MMO?

>>744113354
Don't most MMOs have regions?

Data shows PC gamers are more picky and spend leas than console gamers
Data shows gamers dont want challenge but easy content
Data shows gamers dont want overly complicated mechanics but are more interested in looking and feeling cool
Data shows players are more likely to play with grinding as a game feature

So make a easy console game where you can look cool and that forces you to endlessly grind and you’ll be rich as fuck

>>744113837
To any game on Steam.

>>744117787
maplestory lets you grind and look cool

>>744113896
Appealing to tradition is a logical fallacy.

>>744114140
He's got the balls to do it that's how.

>>744106058
The only half-decent MMO is (Old School) RuneScape, and even that's more of a single-player adventure game with some social/multiplayer elements.

>>744113903
What's that look like? Territory control PvP? Size, speed, and power rivaling comics?

>>744118161
I wonder how much looking like complete dog shit hurt runescape

>>744114650
They should make it start on with the option to turn it off.

>>744106058
ban the third world

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>>744110619
I am a rarity, I may be the last STO shill. It's fun, I like space barbie, and they've gotten a lot better about free T6s over the years.

>>744118393
This but not joking. Don't allow zilians, pags, or jeets to connect to the server.

>>744106058
Make it a chatroom with a game and busy work attached.
Collectathon and group activities encouraged but also a large enough world with interesting activities for the players to do a variety of things and gain some form of achievement.

>>744108612
Roblox.
Your rebuttal?

You talk to people more in other multiplayer games then in MMOs these days

>>744115403
We've had the same games for 20 years. And they're definitely not the most popular games. An MMO has more going for it than any other genre.

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You DID sign up for the next test right?

>>744115469
What MMO are people leaving to play what other one?

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How did the French manage to make the best MMORPG of 2026?

>>744106058
A mix of server authoritative asset streaming and encryption keys to completely prevent data mining.
No instancing or sharding.
GMs that run dynamic world events and dungeons.
Enforced RP with OOC behaviour being a bannable offence.

>>744118563
I want to like it as much as I did before, but damn has their spaghetti code come to bite them. So many lost features, no new ship interior maps in years. No added functionality for ship interiors, there's so much potential there. I've made characters just to use the free T6 ship of the week, it's fun but ugh.

>>744116915
>Whether you can model fun or not is irrelevant to the real-life implementation of fun.
It's not hard to understand Self Determination Theory and apply it to design. People like skill expression, roles, and socialization.

>>744121038
>GMs that run dynamic world events and dungeons.
>Enforced RP with OOC behaviour being a bannable offence.

Holy shit this is what made Anarchy Online amazing. I miss it so much.

>>744106058
Remaster FFXI

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>>744117787
>Data shows PC gamers are more picky and spend leas than console gamers
PC had as much revenue as almost all consoles combined.

>Data shows gamers dont want challenge but easy content
Souls games have had some of the most players.

>>744106058
MMOs are like an electric box with too many live wires just sticking out sparking the air. They need to be plugged back in.
Too many systems fail to feed back into each other. Too much arbitrary copying of existing broken systems.
Social aspects highly under-utilized. Lack of gamification of said aspects.

>>744118247
Anyone who needs flashy graphics would get turned off by OSRS's slow progression anyway. It acts as a convenient filter.

>>744121038
I don't think datamining is a problem.

>>744111863
I'm a zoomer who started wow last year and I'd say that a third of wow retail is made up of zoomers.

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>>744121279
Jagex wants RS to be more popular than WoW.

>>744106058
You cannot because one of the main functions games like these had has been taken away by the social media

>>744121467
It is for MMOs, you ideally want cool things that GMs can pull out live events. And things hidden in the world. Datamining kills the magic of it.

>>744121073
You can't ever be certain that what you've created actually matches the theory. You can TRY to apply the theory, but the only way to know whether or not something is fun is to actually play it and experience whether it is or isn't fun.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. On paper something can be fun, and then in reality it isn't because of a bunch of details that never made it onto the paper.

>>744106058
MMOs are inherently flawed as a concept. You basically have two options, and none of them are good:
1) You keep adding content that progresses a player's account over the years, but new players will constantly be playing catchup and older players are prone to burnout if they feel forced to constantly play the game due to FOMO.
2) You opt for a seasonal model, so new players can dive into the same content as old players at the same time. But this essentially means that progress is reset with every major update, which is not nearly as rewarding.

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The Ni No Kuni MMO just relaunched without crypto definitely gonna be letting this play itself.

>>744121636
So, don't look things up.

>>744122394
You forgot that MMOs include other people for a minute there didn't you?

>one person - one character
>death is heavily punished
>more class content
>gear is crafted rather than looted from mobs
>permaban for RMT

>>744122791
>more class content
What's this one mean?

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>>744106058
Make socializing mandatory. Remove text input. Voice chat only, video chat optional. If you have to long distance chat, you have to call them ingame. Otherwise proximity chat is all you get.

>>744122819
Class quest chains, class halls, more class-flavored content in dungeons (shortcut through long jump that can be done only with mage's levitation spell, cave-ins that can be cleared by druids, locked doors for thiefs, etc.), class-restricted items.
Something like "ancient abandoned temple with class spell tome for priest, but only rangers could find the entrance". Or "dungeon with caster loot but all mobs are highly magic-resistant/dungeon with melee loot but all mobs are caster with physical damage resistance."

>>744123054
I see I see. Thanks for elaborating.

is EvE any good for casul dadgamer?

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>>744106058
I think the current MMO crowd is too brainrotted on instanced content and what they call "quality of life" which removed all substance from the genre.
If I were to think of the perfect MMO I'd want, it wouldn't have small group instanced content to begin with, the open world should be dynamic and interactive, bit like a mix of gw2, new world and eve where things events bring the players in but then the same players shape the world around them, may it be through gathering, artisanship, combat, building and so on. Keep things regional, not global, the world being divided in regional community matters, no fast travel which reinforces the need to work with the people around you, no shitty tokens to buy your gear, it's crafted, bought from other players, no combat being the be all and end all, everything gives experience and every path matters.

It feels kinda cringe listing all of these things but I do miss the more tactile and slow paced feeling of old MMO, I've played DAoC, vanilla WoW, AoC, GW2, Eve and I miss all of these for different reasons and when I listen to my friends who are still playing WoW, complaining about having to gather herbs or wait for LFG to pop, or their "daily dungeon" and whatnot, it makes me hate everything about modern MMOs which seem more like glorified lobby simulators than worlds for you to live in.

>>744117961
The fuck? This isn't true

>>744117961
Not even top 5.

>>744115362
>Proximity voice chat.
Nothing takes you out of fantasy as hearing retards talk with their chip mics and shitty accents. Please fuck off back to your fotm friendslop streamer bait.

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>>744106058
remove world map
limit your playtime with stamina, but allow you to real world cash for more stamina
remove global chats
constant stimulation in battles, or little stimulation with autobattle
equipment must be upgraded and maintained with other equipment
remove player run market. we know, yeahyeah you have fond memories on being paywalled on wool cloth in warcraft but fuck you
space out timing of crafting and things over long periods of time with daily lockouts on important gear upgrading equipment
oh wait

>>744124897
I love GW2 animations so much. Raptor's the best

Now that destiny is dead thanks to half a dozen fuck ups by sony and bungie in a row, someone should just clone it.

>open hub areas with multiple activities like events and world bosses
>quests are instanced for parties and solos
>main hub for your stash, merchants and socialising


The formula is solid

>>744126273
>guy who has only played Destiny

>>744126321
I play eso too and dabbled with black dessert

Checkmate

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>>744124897
>the current MMO crowd
modern games specifically target an audience who are more attracted to progression treadmills, making numbers go up, daily FOMO and dopamine hits from gamified retention mechanisms than they are to anything which resembles a traditional MMO experience. Devs cultivated this audience on purpose because they are easier to retain, it's cheaper to make content for them and they're more easily suckered into buying things. This brought short term profits until they lost all of those players to gachas which do the same thing but dialled up to 11, so now they've lost the original players who cared about a living immersive world AND the new players who cared about mobile game shit and now the MMO genre is in this state

Making an MMO with high fidelity modern graphics is a terrible idea, that greatly increases the cost and time needed to make content as well as requiring more people which then makes it harder to keep a consistent artistic vision. It's also clear people don't care about fidelity based on the popularity of more basic looking games. Anyone making a new MMO should look to hire a smaller number of higher quality artists and then target a low level of visual detail so that those artists can produce more content with fewer people instead of having to outsource asset creation to india who will come back with a 3 million vert toothbrush.

Unfortunately these games still live or die on momentum so you do still need it to be a big budget production with some kind of recognisable IP or name behind it just to get off the ground. That requires a publisher who can understand that it is not beneficial for their brand name MMO to target photo realistic UE5slop graphics. It'll probably never happen

>>744106058
MMO's are doomed to continue to be bland and gay tab target faggotry. The only thing that would probably shake up the genre is if VR ever became cheap and convenient enough for it to become a common household product, and for a VRMMO to then come out with mechanics and gameplay that is both unique compared its predecessors and addictive.

>>744122707
Don't hang out with those sweatloards.

More games like eq where you earn everything. That’s it, it’s that simple. Make one bait game like guild wars to gatekeep the normies from the good game.

>>744126472
nta. I'll give black desert one thing, having to physically load up and ride carriages/wagons or sail ships around the world to sell large quantities of materials to get maximum profit elsewhere is so damn cool. made the world feel super alive seeing player ships on the horizon by coastlines or on the roads/riding into towns with stuff they collected a whole continent away

>>744128172
This is the sort of immersion you lose when games cave to calls for more convenience. No player would ever ask for limited carry weight and massive restrictions on the ability to move items around, because nobody ever asks for their life to be made harder and they don't understand the appeal of that until they play it

>>744106058
MMOs thrive on the social aspect, or else they're just bad clones of existing games. You need to make interacting online fun again, which first requires the death of social media and the overwhelming presence of always-online internet addicts diving anyone even remotely sane.

>>744128560
it really made for a much more varied and engaging gameplay loop too
>MMO #1
>spend 2 hours smacking trees and rocks
>run back to closest town and sell your stuff for a set (usually miserable) price, the same price you'd get regardless of wherever you sold it
>or throw it on the player market board and hope someone wants it
>your growth and rewards end at money and gatherer class exp

>BDO
>spend 2 hours smacking trees and rocks
>now have to decide whether you want to take it back to the nearest market warehouse to potentially sell to players
>or ferry it as far as your willing to go for guaranteed exponential gains the further you take it
>your growth and rewards are money and exp, but you can also reinvest in buying better vehicles to carry your loot around in greater quantities and speed to make even more money
for a little side activity it was just in-depth and rewarding enough to make it fun playing like a traveling spice merchant. shame the endgame is still mostly a miserable P2W Korean grindfest

>>744106058
MMOs are not a genre. Not even being clever. You think forza horizon and wow are the same genre of games?

>>744130160
yes, unironically

>>744106123
Way too much that needs to be fixed for XIV

>>744112176
No.
I remember Tarren Hill.
I remember AIDS.
I remember impromptu gank squads.
Then emergent gameplay was quickly locked down because they couldn’t monetise it. That was the beginning of the end. If you want to know how to fix MMOs, start there.

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There's only one true MMO and it looks like pic related. None of that conditional multiplayer shit, just pure free-for-all gameplay. It's even skill-based, an aspect that most "MMO fans" have given up on, without compromising on gear progression.

It's also permadeath, more so than most other MMOs because you lose everything on you AND your character, but it doesn't feel like you wasted months of your time when you die. You can get back up to a basic endgame-viable state in a couple hours if you're good at the game (instantly if you've stored up enough extra stuff), and there's 19 different classes so you can try something fresh every time.

I think there is some potential on these survival games x MMO combinations like Pax Dei, that Ghostcrawler one that is probably canceled and others. I just don't think "everything before max level is worthless" designs like WoW would work for brand new ones. A survival game loop tends to still have reasons to have early-area farms of materials

>>744113870
>There are like 200M new internet users every year.
new Indian* internet users

>>744106058
Drop 99% of the features and just make a simple fun game that focuses on a lot of players in a persistent world.
Like fighting over castles in a fantasy setting, people like that.

Don't waste money on shit like quests, solo content, or instances. The players are in charge of making it feel like an actual world, not the devs.
Make sure the game can handle several hundred players fighting in one place without keeling over. Doesn't matter if the models look like something from a game 20 made years ago.
Also try to make it so that the winning move isn't staying online 24/7.

After you have your cheap functioning game you can build on it further.

>>744131951
Lineage 2 was this, at least at the start. You just run out of things to do.

>>744132196
That sounds like a bummer then. I remember seeing some sales report where Lineage 1 was shitting all over 2

>>744106058
Kick all the browns off the internet.completely decentralize the internet, kill all the major platforms and allow people to redisperse across the web so we can ease down on some of this mass psychosis. Kill meta too. Can't have any meta in today's day and age. Decentralization would help a tiny bit, but the turbo lards would still find a way to make everyone's lives miserable. The game would have to evolve too

>>744131762
This game is cool it always stuttered a good amount for me though which made it really frustrating since you could get shotgunned and instantly die

>>744131734
>Tarren Hill
Mill and most of the combat took place on a field
>AIDS
Yes, a debuff that got onto a pet which was dismissed, hearthed into city, call pet, and spread
That literally just happened again on Moon Guard and was going on for hours.
>impromptu gank squads
By impromptu I assume you mean you'd randomly find other world pvpers on your faction in the area to group and run around ganking opposing faction players
That's called making pvp friends you fucking idiot. You can run around in non-war mode while pvp flagged or you can join war mode or go join a War Crate farm group or download that addon Overlord and get into >Tarren Hill type hi-jinks again with hundreds of others fighting in more than just one zone.

>emergent gameplay
Still exists. Never left. Never even changed. You just stopped existing in the world and assumed the world died with you. Lmao.

It's unfixable you'd have to make something from scratch. Mmo gameplay is doing shitty boring fetch quests with trash combat to level as quick as possible and then do dungeons which is supposed to be the fun part but the garbage combat that relies 90% on stats is uninteresting. Leveling is a waste of time, end game content is boring and there is no point in it being an mmo because the social aspects are ignored by modern qol. I don't think mmos get new players, it's just the same guys returning to their comfort zone

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Is FF14 actually fun to play or is it mostly a huge ass JRPG story + degenerate RP central?

>>744106123
As someone who only plays for MSQ and solo DD, XIV is a good game, but all the MMO parts are either undercooked or terrible.

>>744136578
I think it is still fun but if you've been playing for however long it's going to get annoying and stale like most things
like I'm caught up as far as basic quests and shit go but I'm not grinding and doing extra content like I used to because the grinding is annoying and the class design has been a bit shit
the next expansion promises to fix these things but we'll see

>>744106058
its over uncs get over it

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>>744106058
I played basicly every fucking mmo out there and IMO WoW still is a base for perfect MMO
>Great game feel, Item, movement, mounts, raids, construction of the world is fucking almost perfect.
What i would do to fix it:
>Better graphics but keep the style. With exception of characters. Make them less Disneyish.
>Delete fucking gay shit. Make it brutal. Add Blood. Give it more edgy shit. More villains like Arthas. No fucking gay friendship.
>Delete all microtransactions
>Delete all timegates
>Add Boob Slider
>3 Week updates with events, and story quests like in Genshin Impact (Yeah Genshin is fucking gacha slop, but the content releases and events keep the game at least sligtly not boring even if events sucks. There is at least something to do)
That would be sufficient for the start. Retail wow right now is amazing in terms of itemisation/classes etc. But the story is gay and no one cares. Just make it Brutal and edgy again.

>>744136578
soulless mindless msq grind and your reward for completing it is to do soulless weekly dungeons to incrementally increase the number on your gear.

get rid of the leveling phase
make items not too strong so undergeared people dont get one shotted

>>744106058
It's pretty clear persistent worlds aren't the way to go
Fortnite and Roblox are round based and instanced, World of Tanks and War Thunder are as well
All of them are MMOs

>>744106058
MMOs is not a genre there is only one and that's WoW. Fixing WoW is a trivial task but it won't be attempted because it involves killing Anduin in the cinematic trailer symbolically reverting the game back to how it was and should be.

>>744106058
There is a reason why i'm not playing online games at all. Vidya time is "me time" and i want to play a game at my own pace. That means if i want to stand around and look at a chair for 10 minutes i will do just that and i don't want anyone to tell me to hurry up. Just like i don't want anyone in my game that impedes my progress. But most importantly i don't want the game(or the players) punishing me for playing my favorite class fantasy. If i want to play a sword/board warrior i don't want anyone to tell me i should switch to axes because they are just better or that ARs suck ass and i need to use SMGs.

Besides all that being EU is a curse. You have to play with everyone from Ireland to Moscow and from Finland to Morocco. People either don't have a mic, if they do they don't speak english and if they do speak english it's basically incomprehensible gibberish.

>no mic at all and probably blasting music so completely oblivious
>open mic he doesn't know is open
>open mic he doesn't care is open
>voice activation that is too sensitive and picks up the fan
>voice activation that is too strict and constantly cuts off
>doesn't speak english and starts talking over in his language
>blasting music through the mic but never talks

I'd love to get into another MMO but the communities that tend to play MMOs are not people i want to spend any time with. Both, the sweaty parsers and the 50 year old schizo cat ladies.

>>744137201
yes, player interaction in the world instead of instances was a massive failure
it only works when it's inconsequential e.g. zerging an open-world boss together that isn't very challenging, shared mob tagging

>>744106123
literally only took 1 minute before a yoshi cultist spawned lmao

>>744106058
Foxhole fixed it

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>>744137586
and then died shortly after

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simple sos system from monster hunter would fix many mmos

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>>744137648
No?

>>744121783
You're handwaving the meat of the theory. Can you think of a height of fun that isn't mastery, autonomy, and relatedness?

>>744122707
Is it really that hard not to get spoiled, and does it really matter if you do? This isn't some pivotal life spoiler.

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>>744122791
>permaban for RMT
Just include it with the game. Making money by trading in-game is the #1 innovation in gaming.

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>>744123581
It's hard to win solo PvP, but if you find a good corp, you can get in on a lot of action.

>>744123581
With group it's perfect. Alone you are literally medieval peasant getting robbed by kings and bandits, after toiling the fields for a week.

>>744106058
Remove the focus on "endgame" content, it only drags the genre down. Maplestory 2 was the best MMO to come out in years due to the variety of things to do that weren't just "go here with some guys and kill a boss" and the western servers were shut down due to elitist autism.

>>744106058
World PvP but people who don't like PvP can toggle an invisible flag that makes it so anyone who attacks them gets VAC banned

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>>744121250
Linear treadmill design is literally the worst part of modern MMOs. *The* problem.

>>744139752
>Son the iteam to the end changes.
lol wtf

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>>744121570
If a game's fun enough, people will play it instead of trying to farm likes on X all day.

>>744124993
>>744125085
Are you trolling? They peaked at #1.

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This is the next big MMO

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There's nothing to fix. MMOs are a great way to keep third world and/or retarded "people" with shit opinions, shit personalities, no ability to read, learn or research, and shit ability to play games contained and away from other games that may potentially ruin with their dogshit feedback.

>>744127601
You don't need hardware innovation to make MMO the genre the most living world experience.

>>744129736
And how do you do that? Fun and community are game design problems.

>>744130160
One is massively multiplayer, and one isn't.

>>744136142
>Still exists.
What do you think is changeable about WoW or other MMO worlds? No resource control, no zone capture, no dynamic NPCs.

>>744137201
None of those are MMOs. Roblox isn't a game because it doesn't have gameplay.

>>744110653
I added closer friends to Aim, MSN, myspace, and then later facebook and skype it didn't really affect how social the game was. I blame it all on shitty gay discord.

>>744139860
I wonder why AI discourse can perfectly follow linguistic rules but fail at image generation that has words.

>>744141674
>WoW PvP isn't some of the most skillful gameplay in the industry.
Where's your glad?

>>744106058
Include elements from streamer bait co-op games in your gameplay. No one cares about sharing their rpg with other retards online anymore, the mere fact of communication in games is not novel enough to carry a game now.

>>744144130
>how can you tell this square wheel won't work on a car? where's your engineering degree?
Tab-target MMO PvP and skill are mutually exclusive. You are carried by your FotM spec and any unbalanced items from PvE your discord clique helped you get.
Play a real fucking game that puts everyone on an equal level and is 100% dependant on your innate skills, like an FPS, and you'll get your shit kicked in so far in you'll start sitting in the toilet head first.

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Unironically?

Phantasy Star Only 2. Action Combat. One big lobby no other cities. Instanced Monthly Randomized Overworld like in dot hack kinda.
No story. World should have mysteries. Hidden mechanics and so on. No raiding.

>>744143423
Aight. Eve and Guild Wars 2. Same genre or is MMO maybe not a genre after all?

>>744106058
We need more games to expand upon what FFXI does, you should be able to play one single job/class very different depending on what gear you use with it. XI does this, but could be done way better and you could go way farther with it.

>>744146820
sadly, it's an uglyass game

>instanced
>mmorpg
you dont like mmorpgs
kys

>>744148710
200 fairies jumping in one spot, such fun, videogame achieved.
An instances can be 50 players big anyway with extra slots for +1's.

>>744112504
>The basis of the MMO is the "kill 100 bears" quest.
You are a fucking retard.

>>744148710
I want to play solo, but see other people running around me, never interacting tho

>>744112504
>No matter what, with no exceptions, your game should be designed so that making alts is boring and doesn't lead to anything rewarding compared to playing the same character.
No, because that rewards not grouping with friends who play at different rates and sticks you with a single experience. Don't take your autism out on the genre, faggot.

>>744112504
Playing with other players, shooting the shit while you kill 100 boars or shouting that a 5 boar boss has spawned is what makes MMOs fun. See FFXIV's Island Sanctuary for an example of how to make MMOs unfun.

>>744106058
Back to basics
What gives value to loot and currency is the community, not the other way around
Most MMOs nowadays overcomplicate everything in an effort to make the game "deep". Everyone runs to min-max their grind/build to be in end game as soon as possible. Not to mention whales are more prevalent than ever
I'm probably in the minority but I always liked the journey over the destination in MMOs. What's wrong with a slow burn? Early x1 WoW and Lineage 2 were quite the experience back then. You get to meet a lot of people and socialize while you grind and do quests
I feel like that's been lost already. People rush straight to the endgame to kill each other for a bit, and then drop the game out of boredom. Servers also encourage this behavior

>>744149297
Nah.

>>744149357
I thought WoW and Lineage were shit.

>>744106058
You cant fix a genre that is a product of its time.
Most Successful MMOs ironically found success because they offer players options to play them like they are not a MMO.
Like how FFXIV is basically a SP whit optional and rarely mandatory online COOP JRPG for the story content.

>>744149880
FFXIV plays nothing like a JRPG.

>>744149956
Ehhhhhh Xenoblade.......

>>744143357
they realized that talking was a waste of xp
MMOs are impossible to improve because the people that play them has changed

Meta-fags and normals killed MMO, which we all became like it or not.
Well not really, they're still strong in some capacity, but you know what I and OP mean.
There's just no coming back, no matter how convoluted of an idea you manage to pull off to combat it, you just can't.
I'm glad I got to experience their peak to be honest, it just won't come back.

>>744149956
I dunno, a lot of modern JRPG do this action ability combat with some stats, instead of classic 4 niggas in a row

>>744106058
Kill all mmo plyers

>>744150625
they'll die by themselves like dinosaurs, no worries

>>744150471
That's not why it doesn't play like a JRPG.

>>744150782
Explain then. For me it felt like another flavor of one, in gameplay, story and progression.

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>>744106058
>fix
lol

>>744150958
>pic
wrong bitter faggot desu

>>744150879
Character building may as well not exist.
Exploration may as well not exist.
Item management is totally fucking irrelevant.
Money is irrelevant.
Equipment is +stat sticks, something even 80s JRPGs didn't do.
Everything inbetween dungeons and random bosses is complete filler, and dungeons themselves are 90% trash. Dealing with encounters efficiently never enters the question because it doesn't matter if you do that or not.
Resource management doesn't really exist.

>>744150958
Thankfully gacha games exist for the type of gamers that collect mounts and post online about the super cute weapon they just got so MMO's are free to pander towards grognards again

>>744150958
>Questhelper = aimbots
Faggot.

>>744150958
TRVKE

>>744151284
Samefag.

>>744151136
>>744151223
>>744151254
i mean you are proving his point. why are you even posting that?

>>744151396
Because his point is correct?

>>744151396
No I'm not.

>>744151396
none of his greens are correct, dunno what to tell you

>>744151254
Idk about questhelpers, but raid/dungeon addons like BigWigs or DBM are closer to that. And at one point the wow devs actually started to design raids around these retarded addons, instead of banning them.

>>744151631
None of those are remotely equivalent to an aimbot that plays the game for you. AVR was the closest it ever got and AVR got banned over 16 years ago.

>>744151748
I said close to it, or more like wallhacks. Imagine if in CS everythime the enemy does something or is about to peek you get it notified on your screen + a countdown of when it's going to happen (considering wow boss fights are scripted and the addons shows when everything is going to happen), sure that would be cheating, wouldn't it?

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>>744150431
I miss the day back when all we had was thotbot to masturbate to datamined loot we'll never get.

Has anyone here actually played vanilla wow? Any fond memories from back then?
For me it would be sneaking to the horde's warsong gulch entrance and using my gnome mind control helmet to take control of horde players players and make them attack their own super elite guard npc standing there. Every now and then it would misfire and I'd become the player's pet for 20s before getting shredded by the guard when it ran out.

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Simple. You don't.
>Get a group of friends
>Play a survival crafting games instead

>>744152047
CS isn't built around scripted encounters. False equivalence. You're not going to get me to agree that DBM is cheating or even close to cheating but instead exposing a fundamental issue with MMO raid boss design, that they just kill you without foreknowledge.

>>744106058
Fully fleshed out erpg animations.

>>744152191
>Be me, kid
>Level 16
>Gnome Rogue
>Just did Deadmines
>Cool guy asked if I wanted my sword enchanted
>Had a fiery scimitar in hand
>Had a icy sword in off hand
>Used sword until I was level 35 or some shit

>>744113870
>There are like 200M new internet users every year.
No one, absolutely no one wants chinese and indians on their server.

>>744152531
that's not true
investors do

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>>744150958
>One button rotations

>>744152191
I was a wee baby, playing gnome mage and hunter dwarf. I though it was the coolest shit it's WC3, but you can run around the map, conjure water & bread to eat and need to learn spells from trainers.

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>>744152516
Kek I was so excited when I saw someone with a tiny shitty red aura on his dagger I mmediately had to ask him what it was and then I immediately went to stormwind and spent all my money getting beastslayer or whatever it was on both my daggers as well. That was the first or second day after release. Then like a day later I saw someone with a blue hue on his weapon running around duskwood, and I think it was some ridiculous +2 damage or something of that kind but I got that as well.
The deadmines were probably the peak of my first days in the game, I loved it so much after my first run that I absolutely wanted to be that guy who led us through the dungeon so I spent the next days leading groups through it, pulling with my throwing daggers and stuff and it basically forged the way I played the game and led groups through dungeon, I loved teaching people.

>>744152446
>exposing a fundamental issue with MMO raid boss design
That's the point. Instead of creating mechanics where players wouldn't need these addons, the devs doubled down on the addon requirement.

>>744152842
Why would anyone create mechanics not like that when that's how MMO bosses have been done since Everquest?

It's like a genre designed for middle managers. I personally think the ground should be salted.

>>744106058
>Unrestricted PvP everywhere, including in cities. Guards would attack the aggressor which would discourage it and make it harder to get away with, but you would be allowed to do it.
>Full corpse looting, which would add gravity to death while also ensuring you wouldn't have any kind of GBP faggotry for spending ungodly hours to get a single high level item
>Unmoderated chat because what faggots now call "toxicity" was the heart and soul of online multiplayer before it started getting banned.
>Single player style mechanics instead of a bunch of retarded cooldown timers. The skill cooldown timer is the most goyslop mechanic ever invented.

>>744153547
>t. rejected in raid LFG

>>744153617
Yeah I miss UO too.

>>744153098
Just had a conversation about wow devs making third party addons (that tell players what and exactly when everything in the fight is happening) mandatory to clear bosses. If you think that is good design then ok. I think it's garbage.

>>744153846
It's the natural outcome of escalating difficulty and raid boss design. DBM existed to address a problem that was a problem since the 90s.

>>744137827
It's like having a bad meal at a restaurant. If it's good 99% of the time and they screw up once, that's fine. If they screw up every time, my money goes elsewhere.

If your argument is "I don't care about story stuff so it doesn't matter" then yeah go play the latest call of duty and not an RPG. Maybe Fortnite has something for you. But good MMOs live on their narrative.