I dunno what a satisfying follow-up to the Patriots in MGS2 would be, but MGS4 wasn't it, chief
Watch out Snake!! They have Guns (of the Patriots)!!
MGS2 >Shadowy AI constructs controlling information and megalomaniacs directly interacting with the main castMGS4 >Kind of dumb
>>744547141In MGS4, it was still AI, but the story of their creation was somewhat dubious. I've made peace with it these days.
>>744546083>take antagonist with such a well thought out rationale that the protagonist feels threatened in their beliefs>turn them into retarded stock machines
>>744547608The creation of an AI pseudo governing body where 4 different AIs self govern and a separate lead AI steps in when needed made sense, it's how they were handled in the game that I didn't like. At some point, given the interaction at the end of MGS2, there should have been some kind of exposition dump from the Patriot AIs in some regard filling in the gaps. At worst, they could have contacted Otacon when he was trying to hack in to GW to explain the shit they did to the last person that tried to fuck with their plans (Raiden).The whole Liquid Ocelot thing was also mishandled. But it's clear Kojima was absolutely off the rails at this point and whatever shine he had from the MGS2 days was long gone.
MGS4 was weird>Snake I want you to take out Liquid, this isn't a government job it's a hired hit>What's he doing>He's trying to bring down the Patriots >Isn't that what we're trying to do?>Yes but he's doing it wrongThe core premise is something I didn't get. Sure Liquid Ocelot in some regard was looking to control the SOP system, I get that, but the hoops the game jumps through to make Liquid the antagonist was silly, especially as all this information is known to Snake by the end of the first chapter.
>>744546083There is no way to square the circle.In MGS2, the AI controlling Arsenal Gear confesses to Raiden that he and they were all mice in a maze and they just wanted to study their reactions to the context they put them in; a scenario as complex as Shadow Moses. That was actually quite clever. Then it's "alright guys, now you have to do the climactic boss fight," before hanging up the phone. So presumably that, too, was part of their test.That's good on its own, because by now "The Patriots" and "The AI running the simulation" are separate entities.Then Otacon tells Snake that the cabal's members all died something like 100 years ago. MGS2spookyMGS4me.Then in MGS3 we find out that the Patriots MIGHT be the American continuation of the Philosophers, which were essentially an Axis Powers version of the Illuminati that fractured along territorial lines after the war ended. That's well enough on its own, and MIGHT explain Otacon's line about everyone being dead. But then...Metal Gear Solid 4 had to tell a story where both of those things are either true or were misdirection. It does not do that at all. The Patriots ARE the AI, which E.E. destroyed inside Arsenal Gear... but it got better. It had a little AI tummy ache and ate some AI crackers and drank some AI 7UP, and it got well enough to take over the whole world, using data it had collected from forcing everyone in MGS2 to do everything they wanted through context manipulation. Whoopie.The problem is that isn't an interesting story at all. An shadowy cabal controlling the whole world? Spooky. An AI controlling the whole world? Spooky! An AI wearing the skinsuit of that shadowy cabal? WHY? What did it serve, pretending to be dead people? Unless pretending to be dead people was how the AI threw people off their scent. Except there shouldn't have even been a scent; They could just make money appear and disappear on computer screens, with an invoice saying "do thing."
Solidus is a goddamn enigma but I love the idea of the character. He needed more background in the games.>He was 36 when he died, and 27 when he was president but had the advanced aging shit kick in much earlier than Snake did>His model in the game is built from the same facial model as Snake, including the face meshes - they line up perfectly >He was a child soldier himself, fighting in the Gulf War at 17 after training for 4 years in covert ops>The Patriots didn't intend for him to start Dead Cell but when he became aware of their presence he built the unit as a backup plan in case he was targeted>Ocelot is 100% the guy that convinced him to take over Big Shell by leaking the Arsenal plans >Solidus is for some strange reason 1 inch shorter than Snake (6ft versus 6'1) despite being a perfect clone of Big Boss, showing Big Boss is probably shorter than Snake>It's likely Campbell knew Solidus (George Sears at the time) was another clone of Big Boss given he'd met both of them>His animations in the final fight are either incomplete or bugged, as he doesn't have facial animations or collision for when he removed the Exoskeleton suits arms
>>744548975>Then Otacon tells Snake that the cabal's members all died something like 100 years ago. MGS2spookyMGS4me.This intrigued me for 7 goddamn years. It's why I'm so pissed at what we got.You know that throwaway line from Snake at the start of MGS4?>Otacon - "Well we got the names from GW">Snake - "That was a load of crap"Jesus Christ my heart sank with this. 7 years of anticipation and they threw it away.
>>744548987>Solidus is for some strange reason 1 inch shorter than SnakeDidn't eat his Wheaties one summer.
>>744548975I remember the theory crafting threads from way back in the day. It was usually something like these>The Patriot AIs were initially trained on the Philosophers way of thinking but over time went rogue and now control everything>The Patriot AIs were constructed by a rogue third party based on the Philosophers will >The Patriot AIs grew from a subset of the US Government and now control everything>The 12 members of the Patriots are in suspended animation and the AIs were born from their collective thoughtsShit like that. Crazy? Yes. More interesting than MGS4s dumbed down take on them? Yes.
>>744547141There was no confirmation tha the Patriots were AI in MGS2. It was one of the most heated subjects discussed back in the day. The first draft of the game had the Patriots being AI (and a bunch of other nonsense) that was rejected - so Kojima and his team changed it for a reason. MGS3's conclusion reaffirms that the Patriots weren't meant to be perceived as just AI, too.
>>744548975>Unless pretending to be dead people was how the AI threw people off their scentI think that's actually stated explicitly in MGS4? They wanted several layers before folk discovered what they were. >They're 12 people dead since 1930>No they're 6 people who were involved in the Snake Eater mission>No they're the AI on the original Arsenal Gear >No they're an AI network spread through the world>Turns out they're just 4 large databases with a satellite controlling themIt felt dumb, I agree that, but with what they were trying to do in MGS2 (control information and create context) it falls in line - but the execution was awful.
Slightly unrelated but why aren't we getting NEW MGS games? Konami fucking owns it, just get the co-writer and let him cook up something fresh. I'm really fucking sick of replaying the same games (minus 5 because it's fucking dogshit) again and again and again
>>744549610Fukushima? I'd be up for that. I fully believe he was Kojimas wrangler. Didn't he write a couple of the spin off games with more interesting stories than 4, PW and 5?
>>744549292>>The 12 members of the Patriots are in suspended animation and the AIs were born from their collective thoughtsI put on my writer's hat!One of the theories that I recall and definitely considered possible, about Ocelot being controlled by Liquid, was that EVERYONE had these nanomachines in their bodies Like, one riding on every cell. Everyone, I guess, just weighs a lot like, Wolverine. Then, it was through this that Liquid's "soul" or at least consciousness was able to survive. It had been "backed-up" either wittingly or unwittingly and it was Ocelot grafting Liquid's arm onto his body causes that ghost in the machine to carry over. It's a dumb idea but this is a rather dumb setting so it was on the table.If that "The AIs were born from their collective thoughts" idea kinda works. I don't like it, but I understand it. Everyone is just a living corpse like this guy, but their minds are kept active and cognizant through a kind of AI mirroring, where they are periodically backed-up and then re-uploaded into their own meat vessels, as kind of terrible immortality.That's kind of a neat idea. I don't like it, I already said this, but I understand it.
>>744549610I'd be all for an MGS2 style game starring Raiden and Snake trying to track down Sunny, ending with Raiden getting turned in to a cyborg. Plenty of room to fill out the 5 years between MGS2 and 4
>>744548987He is supposed to mirror Big Boss in every aspect, not much of a mystery with his character. Kojima wasn't satisfied (or done) with MG2:SS, he went back to it in MGS1 and retrofitted the remaining stuff in MGS2. The implication was also that Big Boss' Outer Heaven might have been a rebelious act from Big Boss against the Patriots but I always felt that was too shoehorned and went against Big Boss' character and how his ideals were portrayed in MG2:SS until Kojima turned out to be a hack and come back to direct MGS4 and Peace Walker.
>>744549857>Then, it was through this that Liquid's "soul" or at least consciousness was able to survive. It had been "backed-up" either wittingly or unwittingly and it was Ocelot grafting Liquid's arm onto his body causes that ghost in the machine to carry over.Isn't that kind of the plot of the MGS2 graphic novel
>>744549937Nigga, I don't know. I can barely read.>>744549537>I think that's actually stated explicitly in MGS4If it was, it clearly wasn't effective as a narrative turn, because I do not recall it. To so flippantly throw-away the sequel-hook, that I don't even recall it? That's gotta be worse writing that The Last Jedi, because at least there I recall it.
>>744546083Everyone at Epstein Island including Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney
>>744548975>Then it's "alright guys, now you have to do the climactic boss fight," before hanging up the phone. So presumably that, too, was part of their test.They tried to reveal themselves as the big bad AI manipulating you the entire time, but then they don't give Raiden/the player the option of telling them to fuck off. They just threaten Raiden and say "uhh yeah we're going to uh kill Olga's baby if you don't kill Solidus right now" and you have no choice but to obey. The ending of MGS2 is a complete clusterfuck that makes very little sense. Is it a simulation or not? Nothing makes sense, it's all digital hyperreality. Maybe that's the intended point, but the point sucks.
>Arsenal Gear - RectumWhat did Kojima mean by this
>>744550579Rectum? Damn near killed him!
>>744550251The Patriots are shadowy glowies the public and even the POTUS have never heard of, not celebrities.
>>744548987>but had the advanced aging shit kick in much earlier than Snake did>Solidus is for some strange reason 1 inch shorter than Snake
>>744546083There was no "follow up" to the patriots. MGS2 already establishes with that ending that there are no "patriots.' Patriots are just the institutional rot of the US empire that has become self-perpetuating and not really being directed by any singular human will, as dramatically personified by a soulless AI in-game that exists only to perpetuate the economy of the military industrial complex and control any deviation from it. The "Patriots" they show at the end of the game all died 100 years ago because they don't actually matter anymore, whatever they created has taken on a life of its own. Just like the founding fathers are the real life "Patriots" of the US empire who never could have conceived of the ship of Theseus of the modem American state.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boDgkH7Yw-0MGS4 was just a shitty fanservice game and made the patriots the MGS3 radio crew because they're characters we know already
>>744548437Putting a hack to extend to 4 games.
>>744550692thats what they want you to think
>>744550421Technically the game is just being meta on design with it telling to follow a streamlined path that emulates past iterations and with the game developers (Kojima and co.) playing the role of the Patriots. You weren't supposed to read too much into why the Patriots were asking you do the things they asked you, more of questioning what the hell is S3 supposed to be in regards to the medium that vydia represents. Hence why people called Kojima a pretentious avant-gard faggot back in the day (they weren't wrong but to be fair, it was first time vydia was trending these waters and MGS2 did an exceptional great job at nabbing it).
>>744552308There's breaking the 4th wall, and then there's going full MGS2
>>744552583Yup, you could clearly see it was something that Kojima always had in the back of his mind, I assume the only reason Konami producers highlighted the project was because the game was so good and storyline was secondary back then. The first draft of MGS2 was a bit on the nose about these subvertions and meta aspects of the game, too.
