What's the biggest wasted opportunity in MMO design? Games keep getting prettier, but I think they're becoming less like worlds. I want an MMO where the economy matters, crafting matters, exploration matters, territory matters, and players create the stories. An MMO is a shared daydream -- it should feel like another life, not a checklist of dailies and instanced content. What do you think the genre has failed to capitalize on?
I have two points.1). Traditional leveling is garbage. You can't expect a large percentage of people to stick around for dozens to hundreds of hours of questing and mob grinding. Historically, WoW has lost 70% of trial players by level 10 (WotLK). And Classic apparently got sub-1M 60s in 6 years (Icy Veins). If you combine the numbers, 3% of people make it to max, not counting the repetitive, linear treadmill that is endgame.2). Tab target is just action combat with a global cooldown and auto-attack. I like action combat like New World, but you can absolutely innovate tab target (namely, dodges / good mobility, parries, and ripostes) and have a good game, probably preferably, if we're going to phase out tab target eventually (if action combat is objectively superior).
>daily dead genre faggot thread
>"Blizzard will never remove leveling."Sure, just give up to MOBAs and Fortnite.
>>744689717Good gameplay and good social interactions, two things that have never been put into mmo games.
New World, simple as.
>>744689717there are MMO's that sort of abide by those rules (Wakfu comes to mind), the issue is that a game governed by players is a game governed by retards.
>>744691785>if we're going to phase out tab target eventuallytab target is a nice intermediary between turn based combat and action combat. The hate for it is unjustified and it complements slower paced social games much better since you can actually afford to type in chat.
>>744695282I disagree. WoW PvP is more skillful than MOBAs, and it's a huge center for Skype call meetups and finding really good people. I'm surprised it's not more of a design center for Blizzard advertisement, but I guess they're resigned to charging money for levels.Also, New World has really good dungeons with action combat, and I'm surprised it's doing so poorly. I guess people are just saturated with games, perhaps themepark MMOs. But the gameplay is maybe better than WoW's.>>744695361I can't come up with a logical reason (like, an actual flaw) why it has so few players. It's really fun, but I think being a linear treadmill hurt it's development endgame. It doesn't even require materials for repairs (or city infrastructure, right?), so what purpose does the economy have? It's just max out your equipment and have fun with the ride.
nutriments nigger thread
>>744689717Oh god aren't you the fucking anti level fag.
>>744689717>biggest wasted opportunitytree of savior :(
>>74469831299% of WoW gameplay is grind and if you need to use third party programs the game has failed in being good for social interaction
>>744698312>WoW PvPIts always been retarded with most class specs capable of near full automation with macros. All the best players do this, but will never admit it, but that isn't even where the 'skill' part is, its just the baseline for competing. The skill comes in with timing, which can be boiled down to one of those golf games where you hit the button when the marker goes over the red zone. Compared to fighting games, pretty much any FPS ever and even rhythm games WoW is comically easy. The only difference between it and MOBAs is you have no need for macros to maintain a perfect rotation as a baseline.
i just play runescape 3 ironman.mmos are fucking dead. it's so fucking over.
>>744699536What's wrong with anti-leveling?
we like leveling here
>>744702336>runescape 3at least have the decency to be doing osrs anon
>>744702706I'll play osrs once rs3 dies in a few years. Rs3 is faster
>>744702603Doubtful.
>>744699536Just call him what he is: a Guild Wars 3 subcontractor mining /v for data every day. Given his shitty takes line up perfectly with their design baselines.
>>744702336>owned by a private investment groupit's only going to get worse from herebetter get used to private servers. And even those are monetized to hell and back these days
>>744700751I wouldn't really call arena gameplay grind in the usual way. Real players are dynamic, and the gameplay is emergent.And WoW has party VOIP, but I don't know if it has sound activation, if you don't want to use a hotkey.
>>744700939You have to use multiple versions of many skills, utilizing hover and focus target macros. This expands the ability count to a dozen or more hotkeys. That and learning the specs make it quite a bit harder than MOBAs.
>>744703009I don't work for ANet. Get a life.
>>744702557that's for fags>>744691785there's nothing wrong with leveling
>>744709182There is a shitload wrong with leveling. It got it wrong almost from the outset.
>>744698312Amazon. People didn’t trust them, and everyone found themselves out to be correct. People want MMO’s they believe will be around forever (WoW/Runescape), so Amazon repeatedly sharpening the axe made people wary enough to not commit.
>>744689717>another thread where the local autist cries about how leveling is a bad thing while throwing a tantrum anytime someone provides a counterpoint
>>744709409The only problem with leveling is using it to gatekeep dungeons and shit
>>744698312>code injection through the chat>shaking the game in windowed mode rendered you invulnerable in PVP>vibe coded by jeetsYeah I can't come up with any logical reasons either. Thoughts in my head? Zero. gif related it's my brain pan
>>744689717>What's the biggest wasted opportunity in MMO design?Focusing on theme park aspect is probably the biggest wasted opportunity. If you design a good system that has freedom then players will end up making their own content and satisfy themselves for a long time to come, if all you make is a new area and a raid where every quest is a deliberately crafted experience a player experiences in a very specific way the devs intended then players will play through it then want you to make a new one asap.The crazy thing is you dont even need to pick between theme park and sanbox, you can have a game with plenty of sandbox type elements that also have theme park content. But so many devs just focus on one aspect and ignore the other aspect that is one of the things that really most justifies a game being an MMO in the first place.
>>744689717Really starting to think these daily MMO threads are being made week after week by some desperate studio employees trying to salvage a crashing and burning MMO project by farming opinions and ideas here. Very likely training an AI on them too.
>>744709182>No argument.Massively segregating players and obsoleting 90% of the world, materials, and professions is dog shit.
>>744689717>What's the biggest wasted opportunity in MMO design?1. Black desert, could be a perfect MMO if it had any group play instead of being just a solo grinder2. Lost ark, has good combat, cool classes, decent world, but it limits your gameplay time so badly that it's not even worth startingI will forever be mad at these two games
>>744709671It had a tiny player base by the time Amazon announced EOS.>>744711503Aren't all of those things fixed? There's no reason, now, that it should have only 300 players, right?
>>744689717Unfortunatly the genre is dead and is NOT bc of woke or shitty devs, but 100% the fault of the players/community. Everyone and their mother is a mindless drone playing the meta builds that some random faggot online made a video about, everyone uses quest addons to see where quest starters are and where to go for the quest mobs, every game is ruined by retards trying to make their gameplay as "efficient as possible" whatever that means.Genre is ruined eversince casuals and normies got a hold of the internet
>>744689717The genre died because game studios added the option to "pay to progress" and players figured out that irl grinding (working a shift at mcdonald's) is way more efficient than in game grinding.
>>744689717>he posted the same pic and thread theme againthirdie or AI, no inbetween
oh look it's this thread again
>>744717659No, devs are making games people don't want to play.Almost none of what you listed affects you.
>>744717923People are playing games that respect their time. You can get condensed action in League and Fortnite. Approximately nobody wants to quest and to do kill and fetch chores for dozens to hundreds of hours.
>>744718036>thread themeYou're free to post an archived thread that's like this OP.
>>744719092it kinda does though. By not playing the meta, you're not invited to 99.999% of the groups for any serious content. By using quest addons, game devs stopped including directions on the quest text, and just assume you have the addon enabled, or the built in quest tracker, to know where to do (this shit started in wotlk btw), completely ruining the roleplay feel of the MMORPG and turning your game into a treadmill of chores and checkboxes>No, devs are making games people don't want to play.If that was the case, then Classic WoW would still remain as it was in 2004, which everyone knows its not. Game is filled with boosts, gdkps, meta slaves, gold sellers, thousands and thousands of QoL addons.. why play an old school game if you're ending up doing everything in your power to NOT play the game?Game devs give us what the community demands of them. If the comunity doesnt want to play the game, the devs feed us literal dog shit
>>744710039Leveling doesn't give you anything it doesn't arbitrarily take away first.
>thread about "MMO problems">look inside>every post uses WoW as a baseline or attempts to address a WoW exclusive problemevery day i thank shitzzard for making a containment MMO for all the retards and children to stay away from ruining better MMOs with their dogshit feedback
>>744719538>By not playing the meta, you're not invited to 99.999% of the groups for any serious content.Rarely happens.>Quest helpers turn your game into chores and check boxes.That's just leveling.>Game is filled with boosts, gdkps, meta slaves, gold sellers, thousands and thousands of QoL addons..Again, how does any of that affect you?>Game devs give us what the community demands of them.Devs are responsible for not being retarded, bar none.
>>744719674it's always funny, you just know that these retards would get eaten alive in ultima, FFXI, or even some shit like ragnarok online.
>>744719674What MMOs do you like?
Make leveling faster but then have a max level progression system based on items and gearKinda how seasonal characters work in black desert
>>744719926why do you want to know? to shitpost about how it's shit and "WoW won" and "WoW is queen (male)? you sure as fuck don't play anything but blizzslop anyway
>>744720059I accept your concession.
>>744720861You subhuman blizztroons staying away from my MMO is me winning, but believe whatever lets you sleep at night, cultist.
>>744702557That statistic means nothing, because you're implying that if levelling didn't exist, that huge percentage stuck of lvl 10 would still be playing, while in reality, they most likely wouldn't. Most people don't play MMO's longterm, also the falloff at lvl 25 can mean a lot of things, they don't like the game, don't like the content, had a negative experience, or just got bored. Pinning it on just level is one of the most retarded conclusions you can make when there is so much data you can actually get out of this.
>>744720059I play EVE and WoW. You?
After years and thousands of hours playing MMOs I finally realized I never liked MMOs.
>>744702557i genuinely wonder what your dumb ass thinks about all of the games with steam achievements where clearing the first stage has a low completion rate
>>744721936Sub-1M 60s in 6 years is disgusting, and there's absolutely no other main reason for such low retention.
>>744722278See >>744722290
>>744722290Anon have you ever been in the steam achievements section and looked at how many people actually ever went past chapter 2 in the majority of the games people buy? Let alone how many people actually finish their games? Baldurs gate 3 only had 20% of it's purchasers finishing the game, and that's averaged across all platforms, MMO's are even lower, because outside of the experience the devs intent for you, you also deal with other people, and your game experience can depend on that too. People not sticking around playing their games is not a mmo thing, a good portion of the people don't even make it past chapter 2.
>>744689717One of my friends is into MMOs, and like, I'll frequently play some new slop with him for like a month or something, before (usually him) will reach max level and get bored because there is no actual content. Invariably, literally every game has the same exact same boring leveling structure. Some combination of just farming mobs and the same "kill 10 rats" style quests. Every time I bring this up, its the same conversation of "how can you do quests better", where I follow up with "just do what runescape does, where quests are actual quests with stories, puzzles, new locales, and meaningful and distinct rewards outside of xp" and he is literally incapable of understanding how runescape quests are different. Like the follow up is "wow quests have puzzles, I don't see how what you are saying is different". Completely mind boggling.
>>744689717Also fuck off posting the same thread over and over again.
>>744722790Not a rebuttal. The PC gaming demographic is over 1.5B, and WoW is one of the most popular games.
>>744723746Also, I'm not trying to be rude. It's just not normal retention.
>>744696110>The hate for it is unjustifiedIt is a blight that prevents any development of the genre and hasn't been technologically necessary for decades. The room temp IQ WoW and WoW clone players who refuse to play anything other than the one exact game they're familiar with are hanging like a weight around the neck of the dead MMO scene. No you cannot just add parry to your tab target game and pretend that's a real combat system
>>744698312>New World has really good dungeons with action combat, and I'm surprised it's doing so poorlyThey ruined it in beta before release then release was dogshit with unplayable server issues so we all quit. Getting rid of hitstun and trying to turn the game into WoW was a mistake
>>744724273If you make everything action combat you alienate a major chunk of casual players, and create an even bigger gap between good player and a bad player than what exists with tab target
>>744724273>No you cannot just add parry to your tab target game and pretend that's a real combat systemWhat game has tried?
>>744724818You don't have to design every class to be John Darksoul, you just need to have those mechanics under the hood if you want better interactions to be possible in the game. Monster Hunter has ranged weapons which can be played by complete retards, but if you force everybody onto tab target mechanics just to cater to complete retards then nobody else gets to have fun
>>744725219A lot of tab target games like ESO have tried to fake a bunch of interactions and pretend they aren't just WoW in a skin suit. ESO pretends it has dodging and blocking
>>744725445Let's not pretend a block is the same as a good parry and riposte system with good mobility. Action tweaks on tab target would be innovative.
>open MMO thread>it's actually a WoW (not an MMO) general>leave and hide thread
>>744723746You're saying levels cause wow's retention issue, my point was that the same drop-off pattern happens in games with no level systems at all, and even in single player games. Most people never finish their game, as I said, often not even making it past chapter 2. If low retention is universal across games with wildly different systems, you can't pin it on the levelling mechanic mate. The size of the PC gaming demographic and wow's popularity don't contradict that, if anything, 1.5 billion players make the issue more apparent and show that it's clearly a player pattern issue, and not a specific design one. To actually refute me, you'd need to show mmo's without levels retain players at much higher rates, besides trust me bro.
>>744725764Let's not pretend a "parry" in a tab target MMO is a parry. The tab target approximation of this would obviously look like guild wars counterblow, a simple state which retaliates on incoming damage, because the game doesn't have actual hitboxes and hurtboxes, startup and recovery frames, hitstun and blockstun, you don't have any of the mechanics which underpin these interactions so you're just faking it
>>744719883>Again, how does any of that affect you?Come on man, this is a discussion board and you're actively using the same argument over and over, feels like we're going in circles here.Boosts, gdkps, meta slaves etc are all symptons of a wider disease: the fact that the majority of the players don't want to play the game. You can say thats the fault of the devs by making a game that people dont want to play, but if thats the case then why would the community want games like Classic to be release, and then treat it like retail wow?
>>744726748You are wasting your time talking to that idiot, you should engage me insteadVertical number progression is a skinner box used to retain people who are easily addicted to doing menial tasks which make a number go up forever. Levels in an MMO are useful only in the sense that they set out a path through the game and an order of events, like page numbers, but eventually your book is going to run out of pages and you need to decide what comes next. The low effort mobile phone game skinner box bullshit solution is to create a bunch more numbers and build reward systems which effectively force everyone to grind these numbers up forever. Complaining about this would be anti-levels and anti-pure vertical progressionThe more interesting solution is to abandon directed progression via rewards and instead build stuff out horizontally at the end of the game, so that you create a wide variety of things people CAN do but don't build any gamified systems which reward them with character power for doing those things. If you attach a reward of character power to an activity then it is no longer optional, it now becomes forced progression. By removing most reward systems you can actually make horizontal progression real. This requires you to create things which can be acquired which are designed as side-grades, alternatives, or optional cosmetics and flair, or to make mini-games out of different activities in your world which are not directly tied to character power and then allow rewards which impact only that side activity. This is a healthier form of end game progression which most people could enjoy except for the animals addicted to the skinner box but they're all playing OSRS anyway
>>744727452I mean you shifted topics, but okay. My original point wasn't "Vertical good" Kinda never even really made a stance on it. It was that low retention isn't a levels issue, it's industry wide, regardless whether it's from games with horizontal progression, side grades, or linear progression. Lets say they were to add horizontal design, then what? Players don't engage with it, it's been shown with GW2, even FFXIV's early existence had multiple things you could do, relics, hunts, crafting, and what ended up happening? People optimised the shit out of it, guides, wiki's, meta's these exist and become the norm regardless how the game is designed. What you've described sounds more like a game you'd want to play, but even if all these systems were in place, as you'd like them and describe them, it will not change the drop-off point, or the issue that players will end up optimising the fun out of the game. The issues inherent with current mmo's will continue to exist in these free-form type progression mmo's, because that is just the modern gamer. Take early wow for example, loads of area's you can go level, multiple for several level ranges, multiple dungeons you can go do over other ones, but people have optimised it, and have taken something that is rather freeform into a check-list experience. Even OSRS is very open early on, and you can argue you don't need half the BIS items to do end game raids, etc. But people have created checklists and guides and turned what used to be a pretty free-form game into a optimised slogfest that everyone adheres to. It's literally a gamer mentality issue.
>>744728730>I mean you shifted topicsI didn't shift shit, I'm obviously not the guy you were talking to I'm just trying to salvage this retard argument about levels because I think we can do better than just numbers which go up even if that other guy is a retardGW2 did launch with meaningful horizontal progression. They talked about that, but all they actually delivered on was not having vertical gear progression past the early levelling phase. There was sod all else to do but there was still a cash chase for cosmetics so end game GW2 involved following money trains across the overworld grinding to make your money go up so you could buy something shiny. I hear things were improved later in development but MMOs live on early momentum so you can't fix problems 18 months later and expect people to come backThat momentum problem is probably a great case for a game with regular resets because it allows for initial bursts of players all starting at the same time. The infinite wow re-releases have benefitted a lot from that
>>744729358>GW2 did launch withDid NOT launch with
>>744729358Right, but look what you just said about gw2, the endgame became following money trains and grinding gold to buy shiny new armours and gears. That reinforces my point, players took a game with no vertical gear progression, and built a vertical grind out of it through the currency system. They optimised the horizontal design into a vertical checklist. You can say arenanet didn't do enough, but I'd argue regardless of what they did, the community will create a vertical check list out of it. Actual player behaviour undercuts every fix you can propose to this, and developers hardly see the point of creating horizontal content, if everyone just makes it vertical anyways, that's wasted effort on the developers part they could have put elsewhere. It sucks, but unless the mentality of the majority of the people who play mmo's change, or well in reality, games as a whole, because this issue exists outside of mmo's as well, this simply is never going to change.At best, you can be the change you want to see, and work on a game that has your ideals in it, and garner a community around it that has the same mentality.
>>744730129>They optimised the horizontal design into a vertical checklistThey didn't have a horizontal design, they just didn't have vertical gear power increases. The launch endgame was essentially nothing other than grinding for cosmetics because there wasn't enough variation in combat and character building to have horizontal exploration of roles, the content wasn't thereI'm not against the ability for people to grind for a cosmetic either, that's fine because it isn't presented as a mandatory end game activity, unless it's the ONLY end game activity. I didn't take part in money trains, I just stopped playing
>>744730456Right, but you could get money through doing various activities and others things could you not? Did people take advantage of that, or did they optimise the living shit out of it, and figure out the fastest most optimised way of getting the thing they want? Like that's the point I'm trying to say, this behaviour is always going to be there, because players want to go from a to b in the shortest time with the least amount of effort.
>>744691785yeah any time i tried to play wow i would get bored around level 30ish
>>744720059Based reply, WoW fags are just that deep buried inside their own butts to get it. WoW ruined MMOs.
>>744730698>Right, but you could get money through doing various activities and others things could you not?You could gain money, but the only things to spend money on were the materials to craft the cosmetic. People were not forced to optimise grinding money and grinding money did not convey any advantage in any other aspect of the game besides getting a cosmetic. This isn't what you're suggesting it is. Yes there's one number left in the game which can be minmaxed and some people are going to optimise for that one number because that's their personality type, but by not having a power reward attached to that number there was no pressure to do this imposed on anybody who wasn't interested. The problem was simply that there was literally nothing else to do
>>744731185How did WoW ruin MMOs when it was the one that people wanted to play? All the other ones are to blame for not catching up.
>>744731567I don't know how to respond without sounding mad. You just don't know shit about game design. Popularity does not mean a good game, no matter what you guys say. Please go back to fortnite/minecraft/god of war/assassins creed or any other form of goyslop entertainment you enjoy.
>>744731567>degradation_of_a_fanbase/hobby.png
Haven&Hearth reset next Friday. You can opt-out of PvP now.
>>744726748You have to admit that sub-1M 60s in 6 years is not normal.
>>744726774I don't know why you wouldn't have hitbox orbs dictating the range a melee would be able to hit, and collision detection. At that point, if the hit can connect, you can parry it.
>>744727194Classic is a different version of the game. I don't see what the problem is that people want specific gaming elements with their optimization. But I also don't think the percentage of people min-maxing to the point of negativity is large.
>>744727452I don't think horizontal progression is something that would be easy to design. What should people even be allowed to do? Speed, damage types, single target vs. AOE, but you're very quickly getting into things that make you more powerful. I say to embrace it and give people power in ways that's comical. Maybe we'll eventually see pure horizontal progression, but what would that look like?
>>744689717Yes nigger because people would totally play something to be a peasant while the devs friend and youtubers are the ones taking the heroes role
So? Who's playing Aion 2? Or is there something else to play? Monsters & Memories is probably never coming out. Bite the bullet and join the erp gang on /vm/ and play PSO2? Or the /rog/ schizos?
>>744689717new world had really fun life skills but the rest of the game was dogshit
>>744725764no it wouldn't be innovative because TERA already did standard MMO combat but action ages ago
>>744740125i will play aion 2, nothing else of any notable quality coming out
>>744689717albion online had all the things you want and full loot pvp, however they like many mmos now gated the release date with the paypig editions, so by the time the average person or even just not the full pay pig gets to play all the store locations and forts are already taken which put the non gaped editions at a huge disadvantage.
>>744730129horizontal content is fundamentally a wrong way to design an mmo where you want all of the players doing the same things, not spread out over tons of different things making it more difficult to find people to do the things
>>744739289tab target games aren't coded like that, there are no hitboxes because there are no "attacks". There are instances of damage which make healthbars go down and which are simply applied to a target, no attack exists in the game world
>>744740813They have ranges. You can just apply parry mechanics to that.
>>744732990You simply cannot explain how the less popular games are somehow better.
>>744720028Honestly bdo got it right, ever since they removed the need to grind exp and sp for 60 hours to max your skills the leveling process has been pretty comfy, it takes like less than an hour if you get leeched and maybe a bit longer if not, maybe a day or more if you're brand new. Now they just need to figure out how to make the actual gear progression itself meaningful by removing or raising the ap caps at grind spots so you can feel the damage increase as you upgrade your gear
>>744689717territory and crafting and "player created stories" sounds great. Also sounds like a shitty crafting survival gameIt's just more shit that the average player will never interact with and it'll get taken over and abused by some discord clan called the CumLords[CL420]
>>744741083The ranges aren't real. Wow tab target ranges are just a distance check which prevents the action taking place, you can't miss an attack by being out of range and you can't move out of range of an attack to avoid it. At the most basic retard level you can of course create an ability where you enter a state and if an enemy initiates a damaging action against you during that state then you get to ignore the damage and apply damage back to them as a 'parry' but all of the nuance in the gameplay is missing and it will always be missing because you're just faking the interactionsStop faking shit, we're not on 56k modems anymore
>>744740503What are you even trying to say? Black zone slop has reset day. Crafting stations? You can easily buy a plot and lowball everyone into the ground if you really wanted to.Everything resets once a week.
>>744689717>I want an MMO where the economy matters, crafting matters, exploration matters, territory mattersPVP is not my thing but I haven't heard terrible things about Albion Online. I think people who pine for the 100% player driven hardcore full loot pvp mmo should at least have an opinion on it if they're going to start that conversation.>>744691785I disagree that tab target is inferior to or a compromise falling short of action combat, and my most played online game is dodgeslop-cum-parryslop (pso2)Tab target is clearly an absraction of turn based combat to fit an online environment instead of having everyone vote for what they'll do next turn>>744741437It's annoying to be walking away from an enemy and the attack they initiated is guaranteed to connect no matter how far you go but how much do you really gain by not faking it?
>>744689717The fact that Western MMOs abandoned the Sandbox aspect of them over 20 years ago. There have been countless high budget Themepark MMOs, yet literally no high budget Sandbox MMOs. Sandbox design is extremely popular outside of MMOs with games like Minecraft, Roblox, GTA Online, etc. yet MMO developers are retarded and think you can only chase the WoW trend (aka Themeparks). Imo, this has been a massive missed opportunity and a reason the genre has stagnated so severely in the last 20 years. More MMOs need to adopt more Sandbox designs into their games. New World kind of tried it pre-launch, but quickly went more Themepark design. Current New World is basically entirely Themepark with a generic MSQ to hit max level in a day into sitting in town to queue for instanced lobbies.
>>744689717>What's the biggest wasted opportunity in MMO design?They want to be infinite grinds instead of a life simulator.
>>744742481>how much do you really gain by not faking it?everything
>>744742481turn based > tab targetdofus gawds in the house
>>744722290>>744721936>>744702557This is so stupid.This is all characters, not users.Most players have 4 or even 10 characters. You make one play the class for 30 minutes and decide that class is boring and go to the next.
>>744741085New World is good and doesn't really have players.
>>744741336Survival crafting is good. Hunger and thirst create meaningful drives in standoff situations like attacking a city. Gathering, crafting, and trading are pivotal to a good economy, and everyone wants to get rich and powerful.
>>744691785you need to be able to quantize charactersthat means leveling and tab targetingif you don't like that, go play something like vrchat, but as you'll see that just devolves into weirdo sex shit
>>744689717Every game is a skinnerbox optimization grind and not primarily a life simulator, this is mostly wow's fault as usual, focusing on higher end players for the sake of the rest of playerbase has never once worked for a game, it works temporarily but ultimately locks it in to a death spiral as new players feel the game is completely unapproachable
>>744741437>The ranges aren't real. Wow tab target ranges are just a distance check which prevents the action taking place, you can't miss an attack by being out of range and you can't move out of range of an attack to avoid it.That's still "real". A range and attack check parry would be fundamentally the same as a system that lets you miss, but at least if you can't attack outside of range, you aren't wasting GCDs. I'm not seeing a problem.
>>744744805yes you're not seeing the nuance that is lost because you've never left your box and experienced it
>>744744020"Much less than 800k different player 60s in 6 years" is even worse.
>>744744529It doesn't. You can do everything leveling does, without massively segregating players and obsoleting 90% of the world, with a good ilvl system (with material repairs to punish deaths). But people should absolutely be able to start he game, play with anybody, gather any node, craft relevant recipes, and make meaningful amounts of money.
>>744744531Everything should be endgame. That's the definition of a living world.
>>744745007You can even allow misses. Just admit that tab target isn't meaningfully different than action combat.
>>744744805>That's still "real". A range and attack check parry would be fundamentally the same as a system that lets you miss, but at least if you can't attack outside of range, you aren't wasting GCDsIf you can't miss because your game doesn't actually model an attack, that means that other people can't miss you
>>744703009he is a schizo known as nutriments nigger who has been posting constantly on different boards for years
/ESL Bot Nutriments Nigger General/ aka Autistic Ian Thread (Extra Pasta).>Will fly instantly into an uncontrolled fit upon seeing this pasta and accuse the poster of being a liar.>Every argument brought against Nutriments Nigger that he cannot field will be answered with >[Fallacy].>"Warm memos" and other ESL sayings.>Instead of using "is", he uses "of", when discussing subjects. Example? "Quality is of objectivity.">"""Objective""" claims about videogame and art objectivity that are never backed up except with Jewish corporate propaganda that is improperly applied as data.>*Starts talking about vitamins for no reason.*>Legit thinks the perfect game is some bot-infested always-online skinnerbox RMAH trash.>Claims eventually boil down to his preference and literal Jewish player retention propaganda from some extremely kike-ish addiction thinktank.>*gets dabbed on by jannie*>Nutriments Nigger has been doing this for 12 years:https://desuarchive.org/fit/thread/42550205>Nutriments nigger has a "petite" dick and does Kegels for it; he can't please women otherwise
>>744745971
>>744740536vertical progression is fundamentally a wrong way to design an mmo where you want all of the players able to play together, which requires them to be at similar levels of power otherwise you're just making it more difficult to find people on the appropriate rung of the vertical ladder to do the things
>>744739870>I don't think horizontal progression is something that would be easy to designMaybe for youWoWFags can't design anything other than wow because they don't have any experiences to draw from
>>744746446not a real problem, mmo players are autistic and never miss a day of playing so they'll always be on the same content
>>744746540Nice contribution, anon.
>>744747937You're mad because I didn't spoonfeed you ideas? Pay me
>>744748920>You mad, bro?Post quality is obvious.
>>744689717MMOs were a product of its time.The whole point of mmorpgs is the community, exploration and challenges.Can't have a community when everyone is soullessCan't explore and challenges because of the themepark design.
>>744750134I've met plenty of nice, normal people playing MMOs.
>>744745082Leveling isnt the issue. You are genuinely retarded.
