A discussion about map size got me thinking about something.Do you remember those kinds of images comparing the sizes of different game maps?I started wondering how you could actually compare map sizes objectively.Let's say two games are made on the same engine and we simply compare their XYZ coordinates. But what if the second game scales all of its assets down by 50%? Suddenly those raw coordinates don't really tell us much.Another method, assuming it's a game where you control a character on foot, would be to walk in a straight line from one end of the map to the other. But then what if the characters move at different speeds? Or one map is much wider and has a completely different shape than the other?And that's not even the end of it. What if one map lets you enter and explore almost every building, while the other has basically no interiors at all?So what would actually be the most objective way to compare the size of two game worlds?
Just like I thought, there isn’t a single nigger here with more than two functioning brain cells
paradise isn't bigger than kalimdorlmao
>>746048672It's always just a best guess, and often it is revealed to be entirely wrong. Analysis shows that elden ring, which was thought be an enormous game, is only 13.5 square km when you look at areas you can actually access.
I assume you could just make a 1m plane in blender or whatever and try to import it in all the games to get a standard unit of measurement figured out or just take any common item in the game world that is as close to 1m or whatever measurement and use that as the yardstick, ideally something seen in most games like a chair or whateveridk man I'm just some fucking guy
>Light No Fire map
>>746048672Go by things that should be the same size in both, like humans.
>>746049220>>746049575One type of asset can be scaled differently from another. You’re missing the point.
bump
>>746049819No, this is the answer.>>746049575If each game has a soda can, you use each game's respective soda can as the measuring stick. It would be harder to compare a game like Oblivion to a game like Far Cry because fantasy worlds don't have a standardized measurement but if you assume the tallest character in oblivion is 6ft tall based off the lore then take a 6 ft tall character from far cry and use those as a measurement within their own game worlds, that would be the most accurate.So if you want to measure the actual playable area, you would then use the measuring sticks you made to calculate square footage of traversible surfaces.
>>746050336youre not measuring anything objectively at that point youre just assuming the funny fantasy soda canl and building the entire scale around thatthats kind of my point there is no universal "map size" metricyou can measure one specific property objectively but which property actually matters depends on the gamecompare racing games map too GTA/skyrim objectively
>>746051018Your point is wrong though, in a racing games map I could just use track length relative to the length of a car and same for all the roads in GTA, use the length of a horse for Skyrim, then because you can get out of your car in GTA and Skyrim I could add on the measurement of all the on foot segments to that games measurement of playable area. It's not undefinable, it would just be a lot of work because there isn't a standardized measurement between the cars in GTA/racing games and any in game object in Skyrim. It's not impossible, it would just be rough but I could assume that a sweetroll in Skyrim is 3 inches wide and use that as a measurement for the rest of the game.
Okay so what's the size of No Mans Sky in cubic miles? And how does that compare to Ass Odyssey?Now whens the last time a dev actually made an interesting world that wasn't just padding?
>>746051559I don't know and I don't know, but it is measurable and the measurement for "an interesting world that isn't just padding" could be defined as interactivity per square foot of traversable area.Take Ocarina of Time's Hyrule field, let's assume it's 10 acres for the sake of argument. It's a big mostly empty field. You can ride a horse through it so I can count that as interactivity and there are entrances to other areas as well as all the little secret areas.Therefore the interactivity per square foot in Hyrule Field is 9 Sweetrolls per Ferrari.
>>746051018How do you think the standard measurements used in the world are derived? Some nerds said this length of space is a meter, and lo and behold everyone agreed that a meter is exactly one meter long. It could have been a can of soda, a human foot, who knows. Of course you argue, well what if my meter is different than your meter. In that case, yes you'd be right. You'd have to go down to the engines to figure out the truth but then what's the point of it? The point of measuring maps is for fun, and not a serious science. There is no universal truth data like we do in the real world with the gram or the meter.
>>746051353you're still confusing scale with map sizeusing a car or a horse as a ruler only gives you a conversion factor it doesnt tell you what quantity you should actually comparetrack length is a length playable terrain is an area and interiors add multiple overlapping surfaces you cant just add 200km of roads to 30km2 of walkable space and call the result "map size"and "assuming a sweetroll is 3 inches wide" is literally the opposite of an objective measurement because your entire scale now depends on an arbitrary assumptionnone of this means maps cant be measured it means there isnt one universal measurement called "map size" that works across completely different kinds of game worlds
>>746051559See the issue here is map size is always going to be skewed towards randomly generated maps like that and Daggerfall. And that doesn't make their maps good.
>>746051863>The point of measuring maps is for fun,NO NO NO DUDE!!! THE POINT IS MY GAME IS BETTER THAN YOUR GAME, YOU'RE WRONG, AND ALSO YOU LIKE GAY SEX
where kenshi?
>>746051982Well that's why you cross reference it with lore. You find a definable measurement in the lore and compare it to the object in the game world, then use that object in the game world for a ruler. There is a universal measurement for map size and it's in the OP image, it's square feet relative to the scale of the game world. The OP is equating size to interactivity, arguing that a world like GTA where you can't enter any buildings feels far smaller than a world like Morrowind where you can enter every building, if you were looking for an objective measurement the answer would be adding a qualifier like interactivity to the measurement of square footage. If you subjectively feel that a game world like Morrowind feels larger than a game world like GTA V, the reason it feels that way is interactivity which can be measured.
>>746051018Can you imagine an apple in your minds eye? I'm assuming you can't.
>>746051018Yes map traversal is also a big component of map size. They did a thing where they put Sonic the Hedgehog in Elden Ring and he crossed both ends of the map in 20 minutes. So that's not impressive map size in a Sonic game I guess.
>>746051775Well I'm pretty sure NMS is at least 10 Ass Odysseys high, probably more. What about traversal speed? Do you factor in mandatory average traversal speed and gauge the general time it takes to traverse a plane? Like Ass Odyssey requires a boat (probably) so you simply can't walk across the map, and that would speed up travel. Meanwhile you can travel that distance in a second in your ship.Also both games have a whole lot of nothing filling the map so is it even worth counting?
>>746048672Did anyone figure out exactly how big Crimson Desert is yet? It felt fucking massive to me, biggest open world game I've personally played at least, I think.
>>746052215>Well that's why you cross reference it with lore. lore isnt a ruler unless you first assume the actual game geometry follows the scale established by the lorethe lore can say a city is 40 miles wide and has a million people while the actual game gives you 800 meters and 5 dudes standing around, lolat that point youre not measuring the game world youre measuring how much the game compresses or straight up ignores its own loreand if your entire scale depends on assuming one lore object is represented 1:1 in game then the measurement is only as good as that assumption
>>746049575"Humans" have different scales and proportions in games but yeah that's what real nerds usually use for measurements, or roads.
>>746052419>What about traversal speed?I don't think that's relative to the discussion of map size vs world interactivity, but again you could add another qualifier like max speed if you want to do the algebra you're looking for the formula would be:Map Size in Sq Ft- Areas that aren't playableX amount of interactivity÷ player speedthat would give you the "size" in this context>>746052501Okay now you're just being obtuse. Obviously I mean a small scalable object like a Sweetroll, a Mug, a sword, a shoe, etc.>is only as good as that assumptionIt would be rough and there'd be a large margin of error but it's still valid.
>>746052828Map size isn't impressive in a Sonic game that's just running in a straight line for fifty minutes at a trillion miles per hour
>>746052828>It would be rough and there'd be a large margin of errorthats basically my point
>>746052918So we divide map size by the speed sonic traverses it to arrive at a usable number.>>746053017WELL YOUR POINT IS FUCKING STUPID
Some idiot did Burnout Paradise wrong about 16 years ago and it's been in hundreds of videos and article since and taken as truth
>>746053053>So we divide map size by the speed sonic traverses it to arrive at a usable numberThat's fair
>>746052828Good... soon we can measure map sizes by GT4 PT Cruisers.
>>746053053OP literally said at the start>Let's say two games are made on the same engine and we simply compare their XYZ coordinates.and if the engine already gives you a consistent world coordinate system then measuring the map from that is obviously more reliable than guessing how wide a fucking sweetroll is you dumbass
>>746048672vaguely related
>>746051018>youre not measuring anything objectively at that pointlook bitch boy, ancient humans measured by "cubits" which was the length of your fingertips to your elbow. it's objective.
>>746048672These threads are largely pointless becuase most people will not have played all of those games and will not understand how their sense of scale works or how they "feel" larger than they really are.
>>746054237It's not more reliable because different games have different scales. Take the models from HL2 and put them into Gmod. Now take the models from TF2 and put them into Gmod. The two models are at different scale, but the game engine remains the same. The XYZ coordinates are irrelevant in that context.
>>746054339nigga you hear about SI units? why the fuck are you bringing Neanderthals into this discussion?
>>746048672It's going to be a controversial opinion but I'd say by playing them.
>>746054456AND THAT'S MY POINT, YOU DUMB FUCK. A SODA CAN BE SCALED DIFFERENTLY TOO, AND I THINK THE GAME'S COORDINATES ARE MUCH MORE RELIABLE THAN SOME LORE SHIT I DIDN'T READ ANYWAY.
So what if a game map appeared like any other game but is actually shrunken into some asshole wizard's magical snowglobe he keeps on a shelf in his bathroom?Is it perspective to the character, or would the map technically only be like... 6 inches wide?
>>746054676No, soda cans are generally all the same size and would be a good ruler, I'm sure most of the games in the OP image have pic related. Even if they are scaled differently in the games, a standard soda can is about 5 inches tall, so the measurement of 5 inches would be relative to the specific game world regardless of the in engine XYZ coordinates the soda can came from. What part aren't you getting?
>>746049819Then there's no completely objective way, but OP is asking for the "most objective way", so comparing the world to the size of a human is still the best method.
The most accurate is to look in the game code, find how the base unit has been defined, and find how the base unit gets split via float or int to also know the smallest sub unit.GTA PS2 era is understood to use meters and a float decimal that makes the smallest point of space 6.25cm.Thus we get the San Andreas known map size because it is 6000x6000 units so it has to be 6x6km or 36km^2
>>746048672Here's my methodology:>Pick a set of modes of transport in the game (by foot, by horse, by vehicle, fast travel etc.), and select their speeds>Divide the game into areas by any reasonable methodology>For each area, divide its area by a square of the speed mode of transport that makes it the most fun>Sum up the valuesFor example:FUEL has a map size of 120 by 120 kilometres and the it's the most fun when you're driving through it at 150 kilometres per hour. Therefore, it's 0.64 hours squared in size.Daggerfall is most fun to roam around on foot in cities and dungeons and fast travel everywhere. Assume there's a hundred cities and a thousand dungeons, and each is 3 minutes across in a straight line. That sums up to about 1100 * 9 minutes squared, or about 3 hours squared. Autogenerated content shows a weakness of this methodology.One game of SPORE has your initial continent which is probably around 25 minutes squared, as much for tribal stage, 5 minutes squared for civilization, and I'd say around an hour squared for space, so about two hours squared total.Doom 3 is an 8 hour long game, probably about 1.5 hours walking in a straight line, and about 2 seconds wide on average. That makes Doom 3 around 10800 seconds squared, or 3 minutes squared.
>>746055204oh and also, the sub-unit defines how tightly the hitboxing can theoretically be made, but in the real world hitbox detect is a cpu processing limit
>>746051863But in the real world all meters are the same. If someone makes a game where the soda can is even 10% bigger, their map will look 9% smaller in comparison which makes no sense.>>746048672There isn't one. You have to try to map something to meters, then use that (e.g. in game 1, character is 1.75m and use that to measure the map, and in game 2, character is 2.01m so use that).
>>746048672No shit.Because it was marketing. It was always marketing. It was always the fucking developer just saying 'our new game is super bigger!' and you bunch of retards eat that shit up.And the way you're reacting to this marketing og GTA VI is too fucking stupid to live.
>>746048672Also, an objective comparison would take elevation, dungeons and multiple floors into account, which no one does.
>>746048672the way elder scrolls fans compare map sizes between the games is by measuring in # of player character heights as a reference. it gives a good idea of the size of the map relative to the player's scale
>>746055000Even if they don't have a soda can they have a cup or a goblet or something that can be assumed to be about the same height as a soda can
>>746055000Checked, but game devs probably don't give a shit about the accuracy of such a minor thing. What if the average human is 1.50 meters tall if measured by soda cans? What if there are other objects with standardized sizes that don't match?
>>746048672It doesn't matter what units of measurement the game uses internally for its coordinates, you would just compare based on in-game objects of known size. For example a character's height, a particular gun or car model that exists IRL and so on. If you know what size any one particular game object is supposed to be then you can figure out the size of everything else in the game by comparing it to that known object.
>>746055000retard
>>746055705well that's just how things work in that world it's not my fault they made everyone short.
>>746055705>Checked, but game devs probably don't give a shit about the accuracy of such a minor thing. What if the average human is 1.50 meters tall if measured by soda cans? What if there are other objects with standardized sizes that don't match?thats exactly what im talking about different assets dont necessarily follow the same real world scale and somehow they still cant grasp this simple idea
If it takes me more than 10 minutes to go from end to end of the map by foot, it's too big already.
>>746055705>>746055837but seriously, as I originally stated using human height is the right answer, soda cans is just something I picked arbitrarily because it has a real world value associated with it so it could be used as a standard measurement to measure everything else by. Most people use height of humans rather than soda cans, in a game like Halo, the Master Chiefs canon height in armor is 7 ft 2 inches, so you would use him as a measuring stick to measure the rest of the world it doesn't necessarily have to be a soda can. The in game maps would be measured in square Master Chiefs.
>>746048672There's really no way to know without looking through the game code.Cyberpunk famously just relabeled the car speeds from kph to mph, but then also are lying by multiplying the displayed speed.Here "100" isn't even 100kph.
The only time in the last 15 years map size has actually caught my eye is Daggerfall Unity, since it can be modded into a lo-fi other world sim, a sort of digital SP tabletop rpg. Otherwise map size only matters to the extent of a landscape painting: The world/zone should look large enough to paint, no bigger.
>>746056403you can look how ue5 games scale
>>746057496no game worth playing uses ue5 though
iirc all of these maps are made by assuming that the character moves at normal human walking speed and then extrapolating how long it takes to run across the world
>>746048672The 1999 MMO I played from devs in a cave with a box of scraps is bigger than all of this games combined
I'm actually surprised about how little the Just Cause games get discussed online.They really are some of the most fun I've had in a video game when I'm just messing around. Really blows stuff like GTA out of the water.Derailing a train halfway up a mountain and wingsuiting around the falling train cars, all in sandbox mode, was unforgettable.Also just taking sports cars into the cargo jet and driving the car out of it at 30000 ft.Not to mention all the stuff you can do with the grapple.Wish they brought it back.
