>he's right you know
They need to stop catering exclusively to hardcore pros. Granted, they have been attempting to reach out to a wider audience, but as this guy probably argues (idk, I can't see his arguments in this snippet), the fighting game developers have been very clumsy about it and instead of focusing on messing around with core mechanics, they should focus on other things. I'd argue competent single player options and earnable cosmetics like skins and accessories.
>>747564423Just make full products worth 60 bucks again like in 6th gen, the golden age of fighting games no matter how much crapcumslurpers who only kept played turd strike and mahvel want to gaslight you about it.
>play SF2 on the SNES in the 90s>enjoy it>play any fighting game today>it's SF2 but with "better" graphics>why is the genre dying
for me it's>fighting games against normal players = button mashing = not fun>fighting games against pros = not fun>co-op fighting games (PvE) = fun
>>747564423teh reason people play and like SF6 is because it has single player content, thats it
you should probably post the actual article instead of letting /v/ users make up what it contains from your screenshothttps://cthor.me/Fighting-games-product-design
>>747565212I aint reading all that shit nigga
>>747565396It's not cool to be illiterate
>>747565506I dont give a fuck about three dix in ass opinion.
The other 9/10 people tried fighting games for a bit and moved on, and now just passively ignore them.This could be people who were only into the casual arcade experience, which current pricing and online models doesn't support, people who could never get good at competitive and are mad about it, people who were good at competitive but fell behind, people who devoted too much muscle memory into one specific game, people who were only in it for one character etc. This group keeps growing and you can't really get these people back.
>potential delusional
>making shit up instead of addressing the points presented in the articlewhy is this board full of retards
>>747564423And what is the solution?
>>747564423Either do something like the new Virtua Fighter is doing or just make them cheaper. I don't think Melty Blood, Under Night, KOF and similar games are as expensive to develop as triple AAA video games with the same price. Might be wrong tho.
Fighting games will never be bigger than they are now simply because losing is not fun. It's why all popular games are team games.
>>747564423>PhiDXNot good enough to have an opinion about pro play, not casual enough to have an opinion about what the game is like for 99% of the playerbase, unapologetic industry shill, why would anyone care what he has to say?
one of the biggest problems with fighting games is their horrible pricing models. you have to pay 60-70 upfront, then another 30 every year for the season if you truly want the actual gameplay content. the only other multiplayer games that have anything similar are MMOs which are completely different. Other games like shooters or battle royales or whatever are either one time purchase with free gameplay updates or free outright with cosmetic purchases. Obviously this model wouldn't guarantee success, look at 2xko, but it's definitely a big problem.
>>747564423First paragraph is correct. cotw and now fucking melty blood are copying SF mechanics, the former just allowing people to have EX out of the bat and deplete at least 40% of the opponents health by converting almost any normal into a full combo at round start, and the former is copying the slime mechanic.as for the rest Ill read the article for myself. Next time at least link the article or use pastebin.
>>747565939because he didn't write the article, he just read it to provide exposure to his audience (and because apparently 99% of internet users refuse to read for some godforsaken reason)
In the 90s everyone had tekken 3 on the PS1 and tekken 4/5 on the PS2, those were literally staples of those consolesWhy? Because back then local multiplayer was the main way of playing with your friends, so they would come over and we'd have a tournament the whole afternoon and that was thatThat necessity is now completely covered by much better games that provide much better multiplayer functionality. This means fighting games are just not appealing to casuals now
>>747565839okay here me out 2v2 fighter game so you can blame your coop team mate for the loss
>>747565212What kind of link is that Anon?
>>747565045>it's SF2 but with "better" graphics with a unneeded unfun meter gimmickFTFY. This garbage ruined Tekken and SoulcaliburTekken was fine without Heat and Soulcalibur was fine with SC2-4 gameplay.
>fighting games then>fun>fighting games now>frame data, training mode stage alwaysThese fighting game pros would be better off playing chess with their autism and desire for money.
>>747566146Seems like a fairly regular link to a self-hosted website.
>>747566137Wasn't that 2XKO?
>>747565212>integrate a social system into the very menus themselves>make the game outside of the gameplay interesting>single player should teach you the game by being difficult>have more customization... because it's popular in roblox??He makes some great points but I think he's a little too hopeful about the conversion of potential players due to improvements in game design. He brings up chess and shooters as comparisons but he seems to forget the higher mental floor required for the quick reactions of fighting games. It reads as more a design proposal for his dream game than a potential road the industry should follow.
It's funny how all the fun fighting games were the old ones.
>>747566146just open it in wayback machine if you are a schizowhy are millennials so tech illiterate?
Why'd they make Street Fighter 6 look super realistic? Was Capcom really trying to push SF harder than an esport?
>retard have an opinion
>>747567503it's not a xitter screencap and you can engage directly with the author of the article instead of seethingthat is if you have anything meaningful to say, otherwise shut the hell up
>>747567009It didnt say potential players anon...It said potential audience.
>>747564423There's nothing wrong with fighting games. It's the general consumer mindset where you have to look good playing it or it doesn't get talked about if you can't find a way to do so. And I don't think there's no real force to change this mindset.
>>747564647The actual answer to the problem, which ultimately has always boiled down to "directional inputs, due to originally being a workaround, are counterintuitive and especially in older games are often picky about timing, they only ever truly worked well on a fight stick which allows for a lot more snappy and precise movement, and frankly that's just not how most people play anymore so this makes normalfags bounce" is that instead of upsetting literally everyone with "dynamic/stylish/modern/whatever" controls which nobody really fucking likes they should just make combo/special training wheels in the form of a movement locking function for one of the bajillion extra buttons we've gained since the Genesis/SNES days to act because for whatever fucking reason if I rig left trigger or the like on a modern controller to kill all movement for an older game suddenly retards seem to have a waaaay easier time intuiting how to do a shoryuken correctly, the resulting movement lockout while inputting even teaches them a tiny bit about frame data and most of the zoomer fags I know have stopped needing it.
>>747564423IMHO, the problem with fighting games is that they are often overdesigned for what essentially are 1v1.It would be like designing a whole FPS, with tons of weapons and moves and so on, and then the only game mode you can play is deathmatch.
>>747564647Any games with something akin to Blazblue's abyss mode? That was fun.
Fightan games had two interest groups competitive troons and normal fags who want blood, gore & tits.The better part of the audience was the second and most devs decided to reject their custom for political correct bullshit.
>>747564423Fighting games should have a JRPG-like exploration and interactions outside the fights in single player. Boom, I saved the genre.
>>747564423>please please please dumb them down even more I am a little baby I keep getting filtered no I won't just accept this genre isn't for me! this is why fighting games are dying because they've only gotten more hardcore over the years they totally haven't been casualized beyond recognition in search of the mythical "casual audience!" please bro just remove another mechanic please I'm sure I'll start winning once it's babyfied enough!you couldn't win a rock paper scissors match you absolute failure
>>747564423>We don't know what to do to make fighting games cool again Have they tried to make something that's not woke and filled with just as many microtransactions as a gacha game?
>>747564423They just need to make an open world fighting game why is that so hard
>>747565212As I read through the article I started writing a reply but then, at the end, I noticed that he doesn't include beat em ups/brawlers in his fighting game category. so yeah I don't care at all about the sweaty fighting games (see >>747566694 >>747568331) but a fun brawler with a good single player / co-op story I'm happy to play
>>747564423esports killed the genre
>>747564423its simple, juggling is gay and requires no skill, stop basing your whole game around it and add a "get the fuck off me" button and diminishing returns on spamming ONE move over and over
>>747564423Not reading your article but the reason fighting games are dead is that they never successfully made the leap to online play. Any amount of latency is a death sentence and since they're mostly made by Japs who don't understand netcode, it hasn't improved since the days of the PS3.
>>747564784Ah, so you want balance patches to cost $60 a pop.No, the reason fighting games are failing is because the genre has been dead since the 1990's and Boomers need to let go.
>>747564423>>he's right you knowThe game mechanics are the only thing keeping this genre from fully trooning out, you dumbfuck monkey tier golems. The fuck you think is gonna happen when any dumbass can play a fighting game simply by installing it? What's the fucking POINT of hitting two buttons repeatedly and winning the match? You think FPS games would be more or less fun if you didn't have to aim? WHO in the fuck gets this high that they start shitting out these absolute shit for brains ideas?The only point of fighting games is that (YOU) improve instead of grinding stats so the CHARACTER improves, just like any other game out there these days. Once you remove the journey of mastery from fighting games, the hardcore leave, and the casuals kick each other's shins for a while, bitch about the characters wearing thongs or some feminist shit like that and then they LEAVE and stay GONE.You'd think that some guy who makes a living off of making guides and commentating would figure out that he's out of a job if anyone can simply piss on a controller and win a match. Even in fucking irl sports you need PHYSIQUE aka to train to get good at kicking a ball or throwing it. Get this through your thick as pigshit skulls: FIGHTERS ARE A GENRE ABOUT IMPROVING THE PLAYER, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Kill the complicated mechanics and you kill the genre, because fighters don't have open world, they don't have itemization, they lack an impressive story, they're not video games for a casual audience.tl;dr idiots
>Everything that isn't SF6 is relegated to the trash bin> It’s impossible to compete with established players. You can’t convince anyone to play anything not called Street Fighter.>People won’t play fighting games that aren’t using an existing IP.Huh? I know street fighter is the most popular and well known in the genre but that doesn't mean a smaller dev can't find success with smaller budget fighters that are new IPs. There's lots of indie fighters with dedicated communities.
>>747567009yeah the article was great until he started posting his ideas.
>>747564423Add more super hot, domineering girls. Zoomies love their dommy mommies. And make the gameplay more fun.
>>747564423>>747564647>>747564784Mortal Kom at solved this a decade ago. MK9 and X had Story mode, krypt, tower, challenges. Full package. A good fighting game should be entertaining and have things to do even if I don't have an internet access for some reason. And no, training, labbing, arcade and combo trials don't cut it anymore.
>>747564423>>747564647While I think the point of a fighting game is to have good system mechanics and fun characters with everything else being a bonus or fluff, if you're trying to market a fighting game to an audience large enough to make back the money you spent on it then the code has been cracked a few times. Originally in the 90s and early 00s it was just by giving your game the best-looking graphics on the market (see: Soul Calibur & DOA). In the mid-late 00s through the early 10s it was just to be heavily focused on the story/lore and adding side modes (Blazblue is the only new IP that succeeded, MK stayed alive on the back of this). Today, the example is SF6 but as the first reply said everybody thinks they need to copy its mechanics and not its structure; World Tour, Battle Hub, Avatar Battles, etc. are what have made SF6 a success (alongside leveraging its IP; they put all the World Warriors in at launch for a reason). SF6 despite all of its success is just fine as a fighting game, pretty Mid-tier within its series. Every game that is trying to introduce Drive mechanics like that's what made 6 a success is missing the forest for the trees and the Melty Blood update might be the most egregious. I love the Avatar fighter but Flow & Unbalanced are literally just Drive & Burnout but with enough nuance in its differences that it at least feels cohesive with the rest of the systems.
>>747565212>>747569650>>747569681The story mode needs to be fun enough to be worth playing, and in 2026, that means it has to be pretty hard. Players these days either want to play moviegames or friendslop or cock and ball torture simulators. Fighting games can't provide the first two, so the campaign has to be a cock and ball torture simulator.
>>747564423The gameplay appeals to almost no one and they've aesthetically become more and more appealing to hoodlums. When they try to break out of this trend, no one shows up, because the core fighting game playerbase doesn't want to play something different than the same thing they've had for their entire lives, and other gamers take one look at it and go, "Oh, that's a fighting game? I don't like fighting games," and move on.
>>747564423>casuals will definitely buy the game so they can go 2-37 in ranked and then they will definitely want to go spend $100 in the cosmetic shop on unique skins and they won't just quit outrightdevs STILL believe these are the players they need to appeal to and believe if they can just find the right combination average joes will somehow be happy with a win percentage under 10% and want to invest hundreds of their own dollars in the experience post release
The actual question is: why is it bad that the fighting game is a niche genre? Why should it appeal to people that don't like fighting games?
>>747565939YOU WATCH YOUR MOUTH
>>747571882>line isn't going up, you antisemiteAnd that is how that studio ends
something like For Honor is what 2XKO was trying to be: a fighting game you could play with your friends and not just against them. forget all the shitty ubisoft decisions that aren't integral to the experience; a 4v4 objective-based fighting game with dynamic teamfights (1v2, 2v3, etc. splits across the map and as players die and respawn). unfortunately the hold a patent for many of the systems, but a competitor that understands core FG concepts like reactability, loses the woke fr*nch ahistoricity, and maintains a consistent aesthetic instead of treading a bizarre middle ground between realism and fortnite trend chasing could be very successful.
>>747564423It's funny how 90% of the replies think the essay is arguing in favor of dumbing down fighting games when it doesn't say that at all.
>>747568810Are you retarded? It literally says right in the OP image that changing gameplay won't make fighting games more popular.
When everyone has equal access to competitive multiplayer, they will all want to play the best one, because the genre itself is competitive. If you're good at mortal kombat it doesn't matter because you're not good at street fighter. It doesn't mean that someone can't take the crown from street fighter, but they can't just make a typical mortal kombat and expect it to compete on the world stage. >inb4 smashSmash is in it's own category the same way you can't compare Mario Kart to Forza. Nintendo doesn't make games to compete with others which is why they can release a zelda game the same month as GTA6 and still succeed. This is also why they can't handle the existence of Palworld.
>>747572845The bad feeling people have about this is that they don't *want* it to be popular, because popularity is what leads to tainting of the core product, even if the way it gets popular is not by tainting it. This is how it always works. It's almost never the case that things gets popular because they tainted the core product first.
>>747564423They have a fanbase problem, especially the non-hetero ones forcing their faggotries and scrub apologists forcing implementation of "easy modo" for cripples who shouldn't be breathing the same air as meFightans are anti-inclusive by design
Character "customization" is an inherently bad idea for fighting games because you end up with bulky "filled out" clothing that is one-size-fits-all because the roster's builds are so varied. See Tekken and Soul Calibur.
>>747565742to seethe impotently at SF6 for another half decade, at least.
>>747567349why dont you faggots play them? one would think fightcade would a shit ton of full lobbies at all times by the amount of “le old game good new bad” retarded shit we see here…but nah, theres no one playing those old games meanwhile SF6 has instant matches no matter place or time.
>>747568796>oh so you hate pancakes?
>>747564423>Fighting Games Are Bad Productsalways have been
>>747564647>hardcore prosNo. I reached Raijin rank with just basic knowledge and skill and it's fun. Pros are on the very top ranks and make up only 1% of all players
>>747566137The better solution is give the casual player other things todo other than getting flogged in multiplayer. But I feel like even that is too late now because casual won't even touch a fighting game with a ten foot pole because of fighting games reputation.My desperate idea is a cooperative friendslop streamer bait mode just to attract casual.
>>747565212He talks about needing better tutorials and ignores shit like Skullgirls already doing just that.Likewise he lumps Smash in as a fighting game without mentioning the rest of the platform fighters or how it's almost its own thing.
>>747564423>>747565742Just add single player content you retards.Not everyone is gonna try to outcompete IncelMaster420 grinding 24/7 while sitting on his unemployed ass.But most people will give a no pressure single player experience a try.
>>747564647This, just making it so similar moves have similar inputs and you don't have to learn them separately for every character would go a long way.
>>747564647This guy gets it. I am still flabbergasted as to how competitive players ruined a Nickelodeon game.
>>747564423This is just traditional fighters problem in general. Sub genre fighters like platform fighters and especially arena fighters don't have this problem mostly.
>>747575646Not really.You used to get a lot of bang for your buck with Mortal Kombat: Armageddon, Tekken 3 and 5, Soulcalibur 3. They had really good single player modes and lots of cool unlockables.The later games in the series removed all of that in favor of shitty microtransactions and dlc while still retaining full price on release, hence them being bad products now.
>>747576156Fighting games are the only real skill based multiplayer game. It's not fun to play against easy bots
>>747576156I can agree but lets be polite about it.
>>747576283>Sub genre fighters like platform fighters and especially arena fighters don't have this problem mostly.Haven't they all been failures because they tried to get the fgc crowd?
I always felt like i get my money worth out of them.Only other genre that is close to this are MMOs or MMO inspired games like Monhun or Destiny 2.
>>747576375Kill yourself triptroon, you've already marked yourself as someone who shouldn't be on this site.
>>747564423If you're going to go the single player route, stop using the decades old design philosophy of making difficult AI input read you out the ass. It feels really cheap and is just obnoxious. I'll get my ass kicked by a high ranking player online, but I can at least manage to hit him a few times but fail to follow up because he can't predict every single thing I do. Fighting game bots will end up blocking nearly everything unless you manage to snag them on a whiff or get lucky hitting the start up of a move. There should be enemies in single player modes specifically designed for particular strategies. It honestly shouldn't be that hard to do since you can just make something with a stripped down moveset and specific attributes that will require players to engage in certain strategies. That way you could make an rpg-esque single player kind of mode where you travel an overworld like any RPG but just replace turn based battles with rounds against different types of enemies. You could even implement tag fighter elements specifically for single player so your team can mimic an RPG party that requires resource management outside of battle. Some fighting games have done something similar to this, but in an extremely half assed way where you're just fighting bots of playable characters the whole way through.
>>747576156The picture's article does have heavy emphasis on single player content.
The biggest reason why the average person isn't going to stick with fighting games no matter how much money you pump into them is because they are inherently counter intuitive. It doesn't matter how many tutorials you add if the very act of playing the game doesn't actually teach you how to play it.Mortal Kombat is popular not because it has tutorials but because it doesn't need any to be enjoyable. Sure you won't be competing with the mouthbreathers online but you don't really need to either. Street Fighter 6 also understood this with its single player content.To the average FGChimp, fighting games begin and end at PVP. They don't care about how awful the rest of the experience is.
>>747576437I don't see DB Sparking Zero, Starward, Bleach ROS or Naruto Storm Connections trying to be competitive. I thought were talking about the amount of content based on the article about fighting games as a product.
>>747564423fighting games had no problem selling before they catered to esport retards
>>747571882because multiplayer games are all a pyramid scheme that need more new blood to sustain them
>>747564647>I'd argue competent single player options and earnable cosmetics like skins and accessories.This is the solution. I like fighting games, but I am really really bad at them and I've never gotten past the next to bottom ranking in any game I've ever tried. I need some thing to do to balance out getting demolished online and grinding training mode with no payoff. I always think it is funny how people act like new Smash Bros were made to be more casual friendly, when Melee is actually still one of the best options since even its limited Adventure mode is still better than everything but Brawl. The complexity of the actual mechanics don't actually matter for how much a game will appeal to casuals if you give us something to do on the side.
>>747577083I was mostly talking about Nickelodeon All Star Brawl 1 and 2, Multiversus, Fraymakers, that one Xenoverse (I think that's what its name is.) game a year or two ago, and i think Jump Force tried that at some point but correct me if i'm wrong on that one.
>>747568726those games are for babies, literal babieswow you move to the enemy and press A until they fall for the 3rd time
>>747564423Meanwhile Smash is obliterating every single figthan every single release.>b-but not fightan!!You don't count it as fightan because it's true, it evolved beyond the genre that has been stuck in the same rut for 30 years. No one has fun learning stupid combos with stupid inputs that make no sense. Enjoy your flops and dead playerbase after a month.
What fighting games need to do is remove some of the complicated mechanics. Tekken 5:DR was the sweet spot.
>>747576710I rebuke your insults and lies. Your bigotry does not prevent others from having good discussions with me.
>>747564423I hate how traditional fighting games can't have big 60+ character base rosters anymore because muh balance and DLCs ruined it.
>>747564423>he's right you knowIts just boring sales maxing, turning fighting games into a product.>>747564647>They need to stop catering exclusively to hardcore pros.We've had this argument for well over a decade. The only thing a gaming studio do is make single player and multiplayer good. Basically come for the single player, stay for the multiplayer. But there's an issue that you have no control over, and that's the fact people will overwhelmingly gravitate to a single place because it is the place to be. That's what SF6 is right now, and there is nothing competing fighting games can do anything about it.
>>747577473I did say mostly but the ones that are failed does indeed failed because yes they tried to be competitive (Multiversus) but other reason also because of the mediocre content and lack of polish (Jump Force and JJK Cursed Clash).
>>747577509Truth Cataclysm
>>747565045/v/ is full of crybabies who always talk about sales this and sales that because they are always comparing fighting games to other genres. Years and years of the same boring discussion because they can't accept that fighting games are niche.
You people should just accept that your genre is dead and it isn't coming back. There would be more dignity in it.
>>74757761860+ character base rosters have never existed you fucking idiot. Also why is there without fail some retard going>hurr devs need to stop catering to prosWhen they haven't done that in a decade or more. Literally zero fighting games cater to pros now.
>>747577509>Meanwhile Smash is obliterating every single figthan every single release.That's because Smash isn't a fighting game.
>>747564423Modern ones are too simplified and random. They make the game bad hoping to get new players from outside fighting games, and end up with nobody liking the result. Make games like Plus R and Blazblue and Alpha 3. Games that are fun and feel like you actually do something cool. Characters that are unique. Fights that feel like real fights. Genuinely, if strive played even a bit like plus r it would be twice as popular. It got fairly popular because of when it released, but the simplification did more harm than good.
>>747578028Fighting games as a genre isn't dead, its just /v/tards thinking that fighting games are ever going to be massive in sales. They cannot accept that the genre is and will forever be niche because again, they're /v/tards.
>>747576317The average player can't be bothered to improve in any shape or form no matter how accessible they make a game. Team based hero shooters for example are popular because they allow players to deflect responsibility for their losses and they never have to take a look at themselves to learn how to play. A 1v1 fighting game means they can only blame themselves or the game or the other player and they will never ever blame themselves.
>Tekken player "Feed Dicks" has the solution to the genre's problemsNo, I don't think so.
i drop fighting games because of the piss poor single player, like you cant do shit unless you are online
>>747564423The issue is that there's too many fighting games and the niche player base is still split between 500+ different games. People that are good at their game are less likely to put 10k+ hours into a new one where they get shit stomped.Shit was easy when it was just an arcade game you played once in awhile.
>genre that only appeals to the fatherless and sweatlords now that playing with your friends on the couch is a relic of the past>confused that sales are low
>>747564423These days all video games are bad products, horribly priced and bloated with shitty content
>>747564647>They need to stop catering exclusively to hardcore prosHaven't you noticed fighting games since 2020 or hell since 2008 has been trying to target newcomers?We've been in the baby-mode era for at least a decade.
So which is the bigger problem? The gameplay, the amount of content or catering to the "FGC"?
>>747564423there should be turn based fighting games i too old for frame perfect bs
>>747577509Smash is popular because it's crossover shit.Every other Smash-like is a flop.
>>747578912I make it a point of pride to never be helpful to anyone who posts the frog with food on his head images. Hope this doesn't help!
>>747578875And that’s the actual problem
>>747564423It's just inherent to the genre now. It's a niche genre with a relatively small audience but it's expensive and difficult to make so they need to maximize exploitation in order to make a profit and justify making them.
>>747565212Haven't finished the article yet but the "league and dota were better products" is hilarious in comparison to starcraft 2. SC2 had a singleplayer campaign, custom games and team matches.League had 1 game mode, and no tutorial as far as I remember. Dota 2 was similar. How on earth were they better products? They had social crap in the client but so did sc2 last I checked. The only "advantage" they had was being only team based. there was no 1v1.
>>747566015That pricing model is what makes SF6 a viable product despite its relatively small audienceFree-to-play live service only works if you have a critical mass of players to sustain it. 2XKO attempted that business model but forgot to appeal to the mass audience so it was quickly deemed to have no path to profitability and killed
I walk a lonely road, the only one that I have ever known.
>>747578607last good fighting game with single player was soul calibur 3
>>747579573You don't have any friends.
>>747564423Kneel FGC... And I shall save you from failure.Anyway, people don't want to feel bad when they lose.That's why Team Games are more popular than Fighting games.
>>747579804i thought we were friends, im sad
>>747564647The major issue is that devs believe that dumbing down game mechanics will bridge the gap between skilled players and the rest.Which is false. No matter what, weak players WILL have to fight and WILL get their asses kicked by veteran FG players because they will be in the same pool of players.What SF6 did was give casuals A LOT of stuff to do outside of fighting ranked matches, so those casual players can have braindead fun at single player modes and the Battle Hub all they want and then eventually decide to venture into ranked.Meanwhile most hardcore FG players will probably never even touch the Battle Hub, leaving that place as a safe haven for casuals to play around with their custom avatars and having non-comittal fights. This created an ecosystem where nobody steps on each other's toes. Somehow no other game managed to do this, they make the basic gameplay mechanics less complex and call it a day, but never address the vast difference in skill level that will always exist in this genre.As a veteran FG player of 20+ years, I can play an experienced casual 100 times and not lose once, and I'm not even good, just a regular UGM player. FG games need to learn how to segregate casuals from veterans in an organic, non invasive way, there is no other solution for the genre.
>>747564423>[thing] needs to stop being [thing] and be turned into a totally different [thing] so that it can realize it's le true potential (be appealing to the lowest common denominator)Holy shit these subhumans just can't fucking stop, can they? Some things are niche AND THAT'S FUCKING OKAY.
>>747578912It's the audience. Fighting games are not really thought of when people talk about competitive games. Dota, League, Counter Strike, Call of Duty, Valorant - for some reason, those are the go-to esports games. Zoomers and gen alpha don't know anything about personal accountability. They feel more comfortable with a team they can blame. Fighting games are tough in the sense that every loss is your own fault. Also, they were brought up with the games mentioned above being synonymous with competitive play. It simply doesn't cross their mind to try anything else. I bought Street Fighter 6 for a much younger coworker whose only previous experience with fighting games was Mortal Kombat and he was absolutely hooked. We've been discussing characters, tech and strategies ever since.I guess the answer to OPs question is making a game people actually want to invest time in, and bring it to their attention in some way.
>>747578362If strive was like plus r it genuinely would've just done about as badly as Xrd did. It's major appeal is being an anime game but with a Tekken tier or SF tier pick up and play level of base simplicity or skill floor.
People buy fighting games just fine, but 3 fucking companies fucked up badly in the last few entries>2XKOTrash roster shilling Arcane, tried to cater exclusively to the FGC>Fatal Fury: CotWWho the fuck wants Ronaldo and some fucking random ass DJ in your game before bringing back old characters>Invincible VSJust lol, this shit was never gonna last, FOTM trash>TokonSony sucks 10,000 dicks and fucked up the PC launch and now it'll never recover
>>747565396no one expects a nigger to read
Just stop making tag fighters. Recent flops are tag fighters.
>>747580208for you player cattle maybe, but not for the real customer aka shareholders
>>747576317>what are difficulty levels
>>747564647>They need to stop catering exclusively to hardcore prosALL FIGHTING GAMES FOR THE PAST 10 FUCKING YEARS HAVE BEEN DUMBED DOWN TO HELL AND BACK
>>747576297as much as i like T5 there really isnt much there. unlock characters, arcade rank where you learn how to overcome input reading. thats really it. MK Armagedon has more to offer but you play that shit once and never again. but T5 you can come back to and grind another character to highest rank on highest difficulty. at least thats how i engage with these games.
>>747581254And yet they still haven't bothered to add any kind of singleplayer content
>>747564423I'd say the issue is that fighting games are afraid to make the fighting itself remain simple.Back in the day, fighting games were at their strongest in the arcades. These games needed to be easy to pick up and play, hard to master, and to look and sound as flashy and eye catching as possible. The average lifespan of an arcade game was less than a year before something else flashier and more advanced came along.Then the developers took that proven arcade game, brought it to home console hardware with slightly worse visuals, and expanded the shit out of it in terms of content. The core of the game remained mostly intact.Now fighting games have reached the point where tutorials are basically mandatory to explain how the three different colored bars translate into the four types of super moves each applicable only in certain scenarios. SF6 has so much crap to learn that it locks you into the "modern controls" for the duration of the single player tutorial so you can ignore the actual fighting and just mash one button instead!
Just stop fucking replying to people who say games need to stop pandering to hardcores or sweats they clearly haven't played a single game in the past 2 decades
In a fighting game, sooner or later, you can't progress and it requires time and dedication to get better at and if you don't you'll just get beat over and over again unless you n00b crush. Most people just quit out here, doesn't matter how approachable the game is.
I’m always confused by the “hardcore pandering” argument. Like, what game is even doing this? Does that even exist? Example of what make it "hardcore pander" ??
Making a fighting game viable outside of competition niggers is as easy as>make a unique storyline for each playable character>have enemies get progressively harder as you advanceAnd no, arcade mode doesn't fucking count
>>747581647The lack of anything outside of multiplayer and training modes
MORE CONTENT MORE FUCKING CONTENT
>>747581429I played Nickelodeon All Star Brawl and that game was horrid for being competitive.
>>747580208Then explain how SF6 sold over 6mil by being more single player and casual focused.
>>747578006Why be so unpolite about it?
Don't fucking respond to tripfags
>>747577731Why shouldn't success matter?,
>>747564423The main reason I don't play most fighting games is they simply don't have enough single player content. I don't want to play competitive multiplayer because I don't have the time to invest to get good, I just want to play a fun game by myself. I liked the story modes in some of the Moral Kombat games, but they are short and the story has kind of gone off the rails into retarded multiverse shit like everything else these days. I'm kind of surprised no game has ever built off of the RPG style Konquest mode in the older games. That always seemed like such a no-brainer to me
Why was SF6 the only fighting game to truly succeed this gen?
>>747582265Modern controls and create a character
I think the moment someone makes DMC or bayonetta in 2D, basically copying 1 to 1 something like Kyo Kusanagi 2k2 combos, with easy inputs like magic plus 2, and make a story mode like Jackie Chan stun master is the moment the genre will evolve into something more than copy pasting SF2.
>>747582265Bitchuba unironically
>>747567950They are going to bounce anyway. You input obsessed critters are proven wrong literally every time. The easier the game is to play the game will just be further genericized, meta will spread faster, and the better players will just rape these noobs into submission faster than they did when the games were actually hard to play.Casuals will not play fighting games, the way you get casuals into fighting games is with cool characters and sex or violence. Mortal Kombat used to be the king of casuals because of this. The casuals want to go in see some hardcore shit look at the fatalities and then forget the game in 2 months. You could also look at games like smash brothers where we have a 2 tiered system where the casuals want to just play like 8 player smash and just mindlessly destroy their friends and play as their favorite character then among them a few players will eventually try to learn the game for real and play melee.You don't just lure casuals in by lowering the input difficulty then you are literally just pissing everyone off. The casuals are not going to play the game for longer than a few months and the people left with the game are the hardcores and they are just stuck with these baby games and they will just leave and the game will die.
>>747582198They should have kept creating games like Shaolin Monks. An actually good action game with the mortal kombat characters would farm the fuck out of the casuals and hardcores alike.
>>747582265KOF takes too long and is tiring to play. in the arcades its a blessing in arcades because you can get upto 3 rounds minimum 5 rounds max, but now with only home version, a single match of KOF takes a few minutes more than an average SF match. compound it with how many matches you do, it gets tiring quickthey should go back to KOF 2003 formula where it is very quick
>>747577509Smash is more popular because it's a crossover autism fest and because you're not limited to playing in the same 1v1 format all fighting games refuse to branch out from. Even a harder game like Melee had a huge casual player base around release because everyone who owned it at the time would play free for alls with pokeballs set to high on Pokefloats. You can modify the rules to your liking and just fuck around. Fighting games refuse to put in alternate modes because they cater solely to esports faggotry so casuals are going to get bored since all you can do is grind out ranked or mindlessly flail around fighting your friends. No matter how simple the inputs are, you're not guaranteed success because your game is braindead. Invincible Vs is a premium example of this because despite the high playtest numbers nobody gave a fuck about it on release. They'd put all their resources into trying to emulate mahvel but dumber while literally only having a 1 hour story mode as an alternative to playing ranked. Even shovelware arena fighters understand casuals want more to do than getting their asses kicked
>>747582679NTA but you just destroyed your own argument. The reason Smash is so popular over "real" fighters is because it has a low skill floor and high skill ceiling. The inputs are incredibly simple and straightforward, but there's a lot to master. Compare that to other fighters where you have fifty bajillion inputs and an incredible amount of absolutely useless moves, and you can see why people prefer one over the other.
As a casual, modern controls/autocombos/autospecials feel like total dogshit once you actually learn a decent combo or two. They feel patronizingly bad and I hate that all the FGCfags pretend to like them for the sponsorship money.
The BlazBlue series has Stylish mode for autocombos and a bunch of other modes.Full story and arcade story.
>>747581756What even you want outside of multiplayer and training modes in fighting game? Sex mini game?
No one likes 1v1 games, the reason why people play multiplayer games to begin with is because they want to play with friends.
>>747583160>>747581767>>747581692
Only thing worse than the retards don't haven't actually played and call everything anti casual is the retards who haven't played anything call everything an sf2 clone.
Developers and the players knee deep into this shit keep blinding themselves by chasing after other trends or doubling down on niche mechanics or simplifying other things. The genre at its core is never going to appeal to a mass majority of audiences. It won't matter how accessible you make it. 1 on 1 is going to lead to someone feeling frustrated and dropping the game because their opponents are just better. It's not like other competitive genres where you can just blame your team mates for your shortcomings and then queue again until you get a 50/50.The genre has suffered greatly over the last few years chasing after the idea that if they make the game anyone can get into easily, they can crack the glass ceiling and achieve a huge audience. It doesn't matter how much you dumb down the game for the inexperienced, you can't dumb down the other experienced players. It's not like they lose access to those tools that you've now made infinitely easier to execute.You only really look at the success of NRS games and SF6. Those games reached the audiences that they did because there's a stupid single player mode to entertain that bucket of single people. It expanded the amount of people willing to pick up the games and engage with it in other ways which is what I think should be the goal for these companies chasing success.Don't try to increase the competitive player pool, increase the spectator pool. That way you get your money from consumers, but you also don't touch the core of the game. NRS flounders because its a one and done experience. You do the story mode, you shut the game off. The competitive scene is dead because NRS games suck. SF6 has its problems but it's clearly clicking with people enough to keep it alive, and the World Tour mode kept the spec people coming back (which is a stupid mistake that Capcom decided to axe it but whatever). Watch out for Virtua Fighter Crossroads. If I think SEGA is doing what I think they're doing, it might be a huge hit.
>>747571074I don't get what the third thing is
>>747582957>The reason Smash is so popular over "real" fighters is because it has a low skill floor and high skill ceilingYou could argue the same for SF2 though. The inputs for advanced stuff in melee like multishines, jump out of shine back air and frame perfect ledgedashing are like harder than 99 percent of actual FG inputs to perform outside of really weird things like taunt jet uppers and some really obscure tekken combos. If you are talking about games like Smash Ultimate well that isn't really a fighting game outside of the competitive scene and even then it's just diet melee. Let's be honest about that scene it's not something people really take seriously the game is dogshit at the higher levels.
>>747583225>I want [thing that does exist]. No, [that thing that does exist] doesn’t count???>>747583186This actually makes sense. There’s a reason brawler games, or even smash, are way more popular than pure fighting games
>>747583295And to be perfectly clear, DO cater to the competitive players. Fuck you stupid casuals, but you guys are the ones with the money so build a three story tall kids playground on the side that they can watch the real kids beat each other up from the safety of your playground. We don't expect UFC fans to jump into the ring, why should companies expect random Joe Schmo to do the Daigo fucking parry and then give them an achievement for it? Just give them enough single player content to understand what the fuck they're watching.
>>747583473The majority of people playing smash are never going to learn or even hear about high skill tech, but they are going to improve naturally just by playing the game. This is where fighting games fall short, because whereas in a high stress 1v1 you will eventually grow discouraged and drop the game, fucking around in Smash is fun regardless of winning or losing
>>747578961try yomi hustle. it's like toribash but with stick figures and modding support
>>747583140Still thinking VN style was a much better method for a fighting game story mode. I mean it doesn't need to be mandatory standard or even have a long 50 hour+ story which what Blazblue does (based af though) but it's much better. Also how come other fighting games didn't copied BBCF's three act arcade mode? Having new updated multiple arcade acts encourage singleplayer replayability. Weird how only GG Strive adopted this starting from Lucy and so on.
reminder that even SF6 pales in comparison compared to Gundam Extreme Versus 2. the game has more daily players just in Japan only compared to the whole world with SF6 and it is only playable in the arcadesOh Bombergirl too
>>747567920>MEET POTENTIAL AUDIENCE
>>747583729Ya can be polite about it.
>>747582679Casuals do not need sex or violence.
>>747583729Story mode, Arcade mode, Street mode, same shit nigger
>>747583902I rebuke your insults and lies. Be polite.
>>747583759Fuck I guess the reason the latest EXVS2 version hasn't been ported yet is because it's still making money in Japan. Goddammit bamco you want more money? Port it to modern platforms and PC ffs I don't wanna play Starward the temu Gundam forever.
>>747583983It's really not. Also ya should be polite about it and not racist.
>>747583759You think I wouldn't be playing this if I could you fucking imbecile?
>>747583983It literally is not. Arcade mode throws you against randomly chosen characters until the last 1 or 2 fighters, with absolutely zero context of what the fuck you're doing or why
>>747584026I rebuke your insults and lies. Ya got no evidence for your claims and Smash Ultimate proved ya wrong.
>>747584089Ya gotta be polite about it.
>>747584168I rebuke your insults and lies. Ya still are unable to prove me wrong.
>>747584253I rebuke your insults and lies. Saying such things bring bad judgements onto ya.
>>747564423The issue with fighting games is that they don't play like normal games. Jumping by pressing up is weird. Diagonal inputs in general are weird and the most common controllers don't have good enough d pads for them
>>747564423Most people don’t want to sit and learn combo strings for the first 8 hours of playtime. I think it’s the arbitrary nature of what will and won’t continue the combo that what makes the grind especially unappealing, even for people willing to invest a lot of time into the game. With modern game design, you probably won’t ever learn optimal combos just through playing the game normally. You have to look up a guide, memorize which attack to do when, and practice against a lifeless dummy for many hours. Compare that to something like a FPS, in which you naturally get better just by playing the game. Aim better, go for headshots, learn to be evasive in your movement. Playing is improving. To me, platform fighters handle the conundrum better than any traditional fighting game. Movesets are extremely simple. You learn everything a character can do in one session of casual play, and then it’s up to you to learn how to utilize their toolkit to the fullest. There are very few guaranteed combo trees, it’s more about what moves you can manage to string together, with a lot of mixups and mind games baked into high level play.
>>747584328I rebuke your insults and lies. Wanting such things will only bring bad judgements onto ya.
>>747584349>Combos combos combos
>>747568810Fighting games have bad gameplay though, it's just practicing the same combos everyone else does for like 100 hours.
>>747584438Literally 90% of every single indie game fighting game trailer is full of nothing but people pulling off obnoxiously long combos, usually very easy looking ones where it feels like your opponent is lighter than a paper bag and floats into all of your moves. They think it looks cool and badass but they don't think about how utterly obnoxious it would feel to actually play against.
>>747564423If it's that easy they can probably convince someone to make this evolved fighting game that would make gorillions
>>747564647hi, no life tourney fag here.current fighting games are NOT catered towards fighting game players.they're now completely half-assed.1-they have the bare minimum when it comes to casual single-player shit, not even proper tutorials2-the actual gameplay mechanics and inputs are casualed to fuck, and balance is atrocious devs are doing less work thinking they're going to get both casuals+pros, but in reality they please no one.not a single current-gen fighter is worth playing.
To some extent it doesn't matter what you do because you will still have fucking niggers like the first reply who will never ever change their image of fighting games being some guy drawing the milky way on an arcade stick and doing an infinite on them no matter what systems or game modes your game actually has.
>>747569650We can't do that anymore because the """""FGC""""" has a complete melty if anything is included in development that detracts from the "core fighting game experience". Which is just the versus mode, and now rollback online. Of course fighters should definitely have these things but they're not the only things they need. The problem comes from the fact that the "FGC" is now seen as cool and being part of it means you're cool so whatever these talking heads say on youtube and twitter their thousands of zoomer followers (who are definitely not hardcore fighting game players) will parrot, resulting in games that are not only casualized to appeal to said braindead mashers in gameplay, but also ones that don't include any of the cool modes from older titles because that would be considered "pointless fluff" by the hardcore epic and based FGC.
>>747584638>Long combos>Fast as fuck frame data with difficult to punish moves>Coin flip defensive options that can just be baited and backfire as easily as they workAnime fighter niggers need to stay away from game design
Pirate only genre 100%, I would never pay for a fighting game in 2026. Laughingstock genre
>>747582265Tekken is too sweaty, Guilty Gear pandered too successfully to troons and lost everyone else, King of Fighters has no presence in most of the world and no one else bothered making anything.
>>747585208Piracy is illegal and a heart hardening sin of greed and pride. It's better to not play those games at all. Repent.
>>747585208>pirating games that are only fun in multiplayer Well there's your problem.
>>747568796boomers only make 5% of the FGC, those that already moved on from the genre are successful in life, take a hint.
I don't understand why someone doesn't take this long easy combo anime fighter mentality and just make a fighting game beat-em-up. You can do all your epic 495 hit combos but this time on a CPU so you don't have another guy hating the game because he's getting comboed. Write up some kind of cheesy adventure story and you'll make bank. Then, if you have time, create a horribly unbalanced versus mode as a SIDE MODE to your game and I guarantee you it'll take off as a kusoge if the systems are good. Stop chasing E-Sports and lose the "balance everything so it's the perfect competitive game" mentality.
>>747564423 SF6 World Tour mode made me buy the game and it actually put me in the right mindset to play online. most fighting games do the most basic ass single player content.
>>747585437Blazblue already tried that, didn't sell.
>>747585276Nah, I'll mess around with them with my friends IRL. If they want me to pay for them they should make a good product.>>747585338You don't have an IRL friendgroup to play with anon? Don't tell me you think discord fighter grinding is the best way to experience these games.
>>747585437We already have Streets of Rage 4
>>747585437you need to understand, there are 2 types of "long combo" games.>ghetto/marvel comboslong ass combos that can't be interrupted and decide entire matches when started. you land a hit and immediately do your long piano combo you memorized. >arcsys/anime comboslong combos with a burst system. you're not always doing the same combo because characters have different weights. your midscreen combo is different from your corner combo. player 2 can burst out of combos, which creates entire mindgames for player 1 trying to bait the burst and drop the combo on purpose to relaunch.basically stop letting marvel players make games
>>747585513So why even play them at all if ya admit they're not good to ya? Sounds like you're wasting your own time only to be a jerk acting like you're more.
>>747565212>Transplant the arcade into the digital realm.i get the feeling this is an impossible goal. irl and online shit are just simply not the same. >more single player/story shitmight have a point. every now and then i play that darkstalkers psp game just for the tower mode.
>>747586017the best is the C-C-combo breaker! games. Tekken/Killer Instinct/Dead Or Alive (pre 6) that allow for breaking with a correct technique/aggressive grappling.
Dogshit obsolete 80's genre.
The non "pick-up-and-play"-ability of the genre actively works against any one game from catching on. It's such a barrier/turn off knowing you'll have to put in time before you even begin enjoying the core functionality of the game itself.Just as well, the "dumbing down" of mechanics actively works against the desire for depth in gameplay and the FGC.I don't envy fighting games' position. Smash's relative ease combined with it's star power carries it to the popularity it has today. No one wants to grind 22-hit combos that have a 2 frame input window at 7 different points. God, thats a fucking job.
>>747586117You have not played Tekken to call it a combo breaker game.
>>747585070You should already know that most battle directors nowadays are actually anime fighter niggers themselves or got inspired by anime fighters. It's why aggressive gameplay is everywhere nowadays even fighters that aren't anime fighters. Woshige SF6 is the blatant example.
>>747586476I call it a combo breaker because I have played Tekken and am not shit at it. unlike you. 1 spammers like you suck at it so there's nothing you can say.
>>747564423My thing with a lot of popular fighting games is that I love the characters and porn but can't stand the gameplay; I'd be more than happy to see these guys show up in an RPG or a beat 'em up or something
>>747585513Oh yeah you have an IRL friend group that comes over to play fighting games on your crusty PC, sure, sure.
>>747586465>80's?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
>>747586548Ok you're just retarded and don't understand that words actually have meaning with Tekken being the farthest thing from a combo breaker game in existence.
>>747586040They're pretty fun, especially with an IRL friendgroup but they are horrible products for your money, buying a fighting game is like paying for porn. And yes I do view myself as better than people that constantly bitch about the state of video games but still consoom everything on release either way.>>747586656Kek you know PCs can connect to a nice TV via HDMI right? Enjoy your 30 discord servers for each individual game though.
>>747564423nah, fightans are doomedall of the companies are just greedy scumbags who will destroy everything people loved about the games in the pursuit of one more dollar of profitnot to mention the FGC being fully pozzed nowadays
Abandon the browns or die a slow death like shmups, it's that simple. Watch how far up their own asses they are ITT acting like fighters aren't tailored to them while continuing to bat for SF6 for free, completely demented.
>>747586548bro you gotta be 18 to post here
>>747564423It has the same problem as RTS
>>747586594Of all the types of idiots in fighting game threads you are the worst kind.
>>747586680>>747586921I can tell you are Tekken 8 only-ists. aka secondary niggers.
>>747586902Street Fighter 6's playerbase is 75-80% Asian the fuck are you talking about retard
>>747587126Elaborate on what makes ANY Tekken game a combo breaker game.
>>747587098Hey man, I'm not saying they need to stop making fighting games and shift their priorities for non-fans; I just want more stuff like Puzzle Fighter II out there
There is no way to make a competitive 1v1 game with no luck involved popular. No amount of single-player content or tutorials will make it happen. That kind of game is inherently niche, deal with it.
>>747587447>1v1 game with no luck involvedI thought we were talking about modern fighting games
>>747587343already did and proved you niggers need to learn to STFU. Tekken is all about finding the counters mid combo.
>>747564423nothing wrong with fighting games as a whole but trying to force them to be products for yellow paint enthusiast only results in the current shitty state of fighting games.
>>747581097You should be brutally killed in front of your family, who then should also be tortured for eternity
How do we create more hardcore gamers out of casual players
>>747588040I dont think its something you can force, people have to want to engage a game on that level on their own
I suck at fighting games and don't see the point in picking one up
>>747588274>I suck at playing the guitar and don't see the point picking one up
i am too demoralized to bother with fighting games anymore after the shitshow that was tekken8what a scam
>>747588040You give them a reason and method to improve on their own before ever interacting with other players
>>747588274The point is that it's fun
>>747588476The problem is that it very much isn't
>>747588354>I'll spend my whole live berating strangers for not dedicating 20 years of their lives learning an instrument for homos>then I'll complain when they do pick it up>then I'll pretend the market isn't catered entirely to my needs and my needs alone, going on rants about drums and synthesizers
>>747567009People are not going to like this take, but Xenoverse is what fighting games should be. Not the arena fighter gameplay specifically, but all the stuff around it:>Character customization>Story mode>Side quests that help teach you how to play the game>Social interaction with other playersIn fact, I think developers should ditch the simplified controls they keep putting in recent games. I feel like casuals would be more than willing to deal with inputs as long as there's plenty of single player stuff to dig into.
>>747588794A well designed game would give you a reason to learn more complicated inputs, but devs nowadays are lazy
>>747585070>anime fighters>coin flip defensive optionsanime fighters have historically had some of the most interactive defensive mechanics in the entire genre
>>747565212Another delusional fighting game player who thinks fighting games are way more appealing and relevant than they actually are
>>747588557>fanfictionThe point is the willingness to learn. With that attitude, you are never going to learn anything.
>>747588931Press [button] to burst is not an interactive defensive mechanic
>>747587423They made a new Puzzle Fighter and it bombed hard.
>>747588956With that attitude, nobody is going to buy your game
>>747588995
>>747589062>Hey, don't be discouraged. Learn something new.>FUCK YOU BITCH YOU'RE NOT MY MOMStrange reaction.
>>747589076and obviously on top of this you have OD, burst, guard cancel, like genuinely what the fuck are you talking about
>>747589076Now post the in-game explanation of these mechanics
>>747588908True, but you know how casuals are. They want the extra bells and whistles to keep them preoccupied. That's why Smash is always such a big success, it's got all that side stuff aside from the fighting. I know it'd take a lot of development time to make a fighting game that has all the same stuff in it as Xenoverse and Smash, but I feel like a lot of companies are missing out on what's essentially an easy investment in the long run.
>>747589151>fanfictionStrange reaction
>>747589197what does this have to do with you just lying about anime games having coin flip defensive mechanics.
>>747589323Because if nobody knows about them, they don't fucking exist
>>747588939If Shart Farter Dix had the proportional success in North America it does in Japan it would hit 100,000 player peaks on Steam daily and sit in the top 15 most popular games. Which isn't quite a fair concept because even FPS have weird disparities in popularity between regions but not to nearly the extent that 19x more people per capita are Master rank in SF6 in Japan than the USA.
>>747589392well my goal post moving faggot, good thing blazblue has a tutorial mode. heck here is xrd rev 2 which has similar mechanics explaining it in their tutorial as wellhttps://youtu.be/ITarmkEEf_U?t=2301
He's right about incompetent product design keeping players away who would otherwise engage with the complex core gameplay loop of these games. Although still exceedingly niche in the west compared to fighting games, mahjong somewhat exploded in popularity only after a client showed up that had more to it than joining ranked and tournament rooms.
>>747589667>tutorial modeThis is why your game is dead. Instead of explaining things naturally through gameplay, you expect people to sit through boring ass tutorials and flow charts
>>747589761you never wanted to learn to begin with
>>747589831Nobody does, that's the fucking point you retarded monkey. People want to PLAY GAMES not spend 50 hours memorizing the same string of inputs to do 5% more damage on a combo
>>747589761It baffles me how allergic to learning some people are. And we're talking about things you do in your freetime and that you do for fun. Imagine the same person being forced outside into the world, learning a trade or a skill, and being just as incompetent.
>>747589435Wow if Americans were Japanese they'd be playing different games? You don't say
>>747589942stuff like this makes me understand why nintendo never puts difficulty in their game or save it until 80-95% of the game is over, nobody really wants to learn.
>>747590163Teaching through entertainment is like the most basic of basic teaching methods ever. It's not my fault that fighting game devs are fucking retarded
>>747590287Why can I learn it then but you can't? Doesn't that make you the retarded one?
>>747589729why yes we should turn fighting games into gachaslop
>>747590287fighting games are simple to learn idioto, there's literal tutorials upon tutorials and combo challenges for you to learn the basis of a character you want to play as. just because your monkey brain wants to smash buttons doesn't mean the game design is bad: you are just subhuman, that's all. if kids that can't speak English or Japanese can pick up a fighting game just by looking at instructions, you are a subhuman nigger at that point.
>>747590368>why can I waste countless hours of my life but you can't?Lol
It's the ultimate "fun with friends" genre, and the internet has basically killed it, because the internet is filled with insufferable faggots, and also people don't have friends anymore.
>>747590461>he knows something I don't>he is the dumb one
>>747590452You're missing the most important aspect of any real game there: fun. Tutorials aren't fun. Combo drills aren't fun. They are actively anti-fun. The dismal player count of all fighting games is proof of this
>>747590163>some peopleNobody uses tutorial modes, nobody wants an excruciatingly slow stiff out of context explanation for some thing they don't know why they'd want to know.
>>747590287>go to a kickboxing club>coach tells you about breathing, posture and how to throw a punch>AAARRGH ALL THOSE EXPLANATIONS MAKE LEARNING FUN FOR MY ADHD RIDDLED BRAINThis is you.
>>747590676Yeah, that's why nobody's buying your fuckass games lmao
>>747590287https://streamable.com/e20g0c evergreen
>>747564423>take ninja gaiden and combine it durectly with dead or alive. And then combine that with extreme beach volleyball. Take soul caliber and combine it with legend of zelda. Take street fighter 6Take persona 4 arena and combine it with persona 4.
>genre hardly offers storymodes that are actually fun and interesting>lands the expectation that you know how to control the game immediately upon launch>prioritizes multiplayer matches but nothing to truly bridge the gap>"read all this bullshit bro">punished for experimenting and very little exceptions to the rule>DLC Character fests that rack the bill up more>game you pick 9/10 will die after a few months leaving you with dogshit>have to juggle going to discords>""""fixing controls""""" actually does fucking nothing and makes the game worse for everyoneFighting games are gonna be the new RTS. Dead in the ground with autists and asians keeping it afloat or some niche group in a 3rd world shithole
>>747566146>WTF?? A WEBSITE THAT ISNT XITTER, FACEBOOK, OR YOUTUBE? IM GOING INSAAAAAAAAANE!!!!
>>747589761>>747590287In a vacuum that's a good idea, but some things really do have too many mechanics. Shoehorning them into story mode would be pretty awkward, too.You can't expect someone to open up 3d software like blender or maya and expect them to hit the ground running, so you have to accept that some things will be more complicated and niche.
>"Fighting games in 2026 are floundering, with everything not called Street Fighter 6 relegated to the trash bin of historyRemember kids:Mortal Kombat only outsells Street Fighter by millions of copies because tasteless normies eat slopbut Street Fighter totally outsells everyone else by millions of copies because discerning people deeply appreciate its quality
>>747590748Oh that's not true, I'm finding plenty of players on Street Fighter 6 daily. Anyone with the capacity to learn is welcome. Your attitude is a weird mix up envy, gloating about fighting games not doing as well as other genres and straight up cope.
>>747590871ive honestly never found singleplayer mode in fighting games particularly enjoyable, i'd be perfectly happy without them so long as it meant the games are cheaper and/or had bigger rostershowever thats not the case thanks to the excessive greed of all the studios involved
>>747591158Difference being people actually play Street Fighter lmao
>>747590548>>747590557>>747590676Imo fighting games should just focus on the "tutorial" being a traditional side scrolling beat um up like double dragon. Would solve all problems.>You have something that you can casually introduce a friend to, immediately letting them experiment. >Mobs would have a single or even two abilities from an upcoming boss (a normal roster character) as is good game design. Gives loads of chance to learn animations and quirks regarding them.>Pads out total game playtime, with most of the content being recycled if you do it properly. Makes the game seem like a better value.>Gives the stages themselves a storyline and even gives you the opportunity to make them more intricate.There is 0 problem with doing something like this.
>>747590676Have you considered that you are a nigger.>>747590796Have you considered that Majinobama is a niggerPeople don't get into basketball through advanced defensive strategy and they don't go reading the rulebook to learn that in Arkansas pick up league they can execute a DANK CHAOS GUARD by sticking up 10 fingers when someone tries to dunk on them.
>>747564423>should we add in some fun and original single player modes to try and draw interest from untapped casuals?>Nah let's just mimic street fighter and double down on the increasingly small hardcores.Fighting games have No one to blame but themselves.
>>747578912there is no problem aside rhe one you /v faggots have conjured up in your mentally ill minds. FGs have never been stronger and better than they are now.
>>747566694All of those things existed back then people just kept that knowledge for locals. Frame data and training mode stages have existed since the PS1 when Capcom started porting their games for it.YOU were not interested in these things, only on hitting arcades with your friends to mash low roundhouse at them.
>>747591038Actually I take it back, soul calibur did a decent job of it
>>747591341alright idk about better, modern games do kinda just suck. but i'm thankful for rollback so i can basically play whatever i want now, even arcana heart just got a rollback mod. shit's fucking crazy.
>>747591256Without a story mode in a fighting game I would have as much investment in them as I do in mobas and hero shooters. You wouldn't have characters you'd have character designs.
>>747591340This is a specially retarded argument because SF6 literally did this they spent hundreds of millions developing a singleplayer mode with a create-a-character and minigames so retards like you could waste their time doing that instead of touching online lobbies and the moment they noticed the people who actually keep coming back to buy their battle passes and character passes do NOT care about that, they cut it off.
>>747591420>arcana heartkys tranny faggot
>>747591440you could make a fighting game for an existing franchise/story though, something like dbz or hxh
>>747591315>People don't get into basketball through advanced defensive strategy and they don't go reading the rulebook to learn that in Arkansas pick up league they can execute a DANK CHAOS GUARD by sticking up 10 fingers when someone tries to dunk on them.Nothing's wrong with just shooting some hoops. But your nigger brain fails to realize that you will have to learn the rules of the game and train if you want to play, be it casually or professionally in a team. Nigger.
>>747591305>Difference being people actually play Tekken 8 lmao>Difference being people actually play Granblue Fantasy Versus>Difference being people actually play Under Night In-Birth IIRepeat until suitable FGC cultural relevance has been achieved
>>747591256Yeah, cause a lot of em are half assed last additions. Mk9 like a anon said previous did it right and I still don't understand how we regressed from there. Even ||GR15 game|| had some resemblance of a story mode even if it wasent finished. It shouldn't be hard
>>747591657>Difference being people actually play Tekken 8 lmao>Difference being people actually play Granblue Fantasy Versus>Difference being people actually play Under Night In-Birth IINo, they don't. And I never said this, retard.
>>747591663>i actually accidentally did the discord spoiler shitLol oops I am tired boss please forgive me
>>747591663no because it just feels like its cross-purpose to why i bought the game in the first place. its first of all a competitive game you play against other people. playing against AI is the antithesis of that
>>747591038It's literally as easy as tool tips in menus and loading screens combined with a story mode that makes you learn the mechanics through gameplay. But again, retarded devs.>>747591607Nobody's running passing and shooting drills just to fuck around with their friends, wtf are you talking about
>>747564647Unironically, a lot of the FG made in the 90s and early 2000s were early to start as a beginner than all the recent games including games made for "casual players"Because these games focused on the regular players first, not the professional or esport focused peopleThe same can be said about many shooters.
>>747591874Because the majority of people who play video games don't care about ranks or competition, and if you want to ever have a chance of converting them, you need to make them understand the game in a way that's entertaining?
>>747591902>Let's shoot some balls.>"Alright, bro.">*kicks the ball*>"What the fuck are doing, man?">What do you mean lol I just want to to have some fun. You want me to do fucking drills or somethin', you nerd?
>>747591607I have more than enough esoteric sports and video game knowledge Tyrone, but I also have the self introspection to understand when something is completely fucking uninteresting unless you are actually invested in something already.
>>747591486>meanwhile!I spent hundreds of hours playing soul caliber 2 and 3 single player content.
>>747592067why would i want them to be "converted" to playing fighting games? especially if it comes at the cost of shifting design focus away from things i care about towards things casuals care about
>>747564423Why does /v/ constantly whine and bitch about fighting games even existing? What is it about this genre that activates the autism so hard?
the issue right now is also with the playerbase themselves.Many people love multiplayer games, but they need something to blame when they are losing. fighting games is one of the few genre when you can't blame your team mates, or even cheaters most of the time, it's YOU who lost. And many people can't stomach that.
>>747592187Because the alternative is dying entirely as a genre
>>747592139Bodied that freak.
>>747590372>Roll for your character>2000+ variations of each character on the roster>SSR Summer Blue Trunks Ryu has air fireballs, an invincible meterless DP, and all his projectiles are plus on block at any distance>But he has a 0.000005% drop rate (only available to pull July and August) unless you pay for a rate boost which costs 20,000 fighting coins bringing it up to a 0.005% drop rate
>>747592139I didn't realize I was talking to a retard, my mistake
>>747592245if the choice is between it being bastardized beyond recognition (like T8 has been) or death, i choose death
>>747592324How did all of the niggercore analogies not tip you off.
>>747592326Alright, just wait 10 years
>>747589761You have never learned a single thing naturally through gameplay
They want fighting games to cater to the "modern audience". That's their idea of reaching potential audience. They want it to be woke.
>>747592413No, (You) have never learned a single thing naturally through gameplay, and have decided to project your retardation onto me
>>747590461>wasteIt's fun to learnAnd then it's fun to implement what you learnedNot wasted time at all
>>747564423>fighting game comes out>has some sort of ult bar that halves enemy hp>SC had that rock paper scissors tier mechanici hate this shit. Im a fighting game tourist by far so i wont pretend to know the fg ins and outs but i would love and obsess over a pvp brawler style fighter if it doesnt already exist. Something in the style of the bouncer/urban reign. SCII feels great as a shitter because its very fluid even with not knowing any real combos and has a myriad of mechanics depending on the weapon that you use and how it hits the opponent which lends to also having a pretty high skill ceiling. regular fighting games tend to feel really stilted and frustrating as someone just jumping in and isnt familiar with them.
Fighting games are really overpriced for what they are.If they're going to gouge the customer with DLC, then they need to be either free to play or sold for half the price of other AAA games at launch.I would maybe pick something up on a whim, if it was cheap.
>>747592479You have autism
Bad products have a right to exist.
>>747564423Anyone crying about how fighting games need to continue to retard-fy themselves so you can le finally "play it too" should fucking kill themselves and I mean this 100% unironicallyThe only reason theyre seemingly "unpopular" is that consoles have basically killed what they were originally best at, aka offline multiplayer. The vast majority of good fighting games players and how even I originally got into them was the exact same ancient tale, mashing buttons against your friend at a game until you suddenly learned how to do something else than just mash buttons so suddenly it wasnt fun for your friend anymore and you had to go fight other people. The kind of person too retarded to ever cross that border and be able to learn how to beat their friend just isnt cut out for a genre thats entirely about taking full responsibility for your wins and losses
>>747564423fighting games have no content and should cost half as much as real games.they launch with a dozen to 2 dozen characters, stages are presented as content when they aren't and there's never anything else to do but climb a ranked ladder.
>>747592653Okay now replace "friend" with "AI" and you're halfway there
>>747592474Name examples of learning something naturally just through game progression, you stupid cunt.
>>747581208>master them allNow what?
>>747592809Lol you're so fucking retarded>play against AI>do a big move by accident>attempt to recreate said move>parry by accident>attempt to recreate said parryDo you just fucking read manuals for every little thing you do?
>>747581097This, make everything the exact same, then nobody will be left out.
>>747592942Holy shit, you're so dumb, it's unbelievable.
>>747592653right, but you can't even have the experience of pressing buttons against your friend anymore, because you're pushed into an online infrastructure, and everyone is better than you.And no, no one has friends these days.
>>747593114I accept your concession
Fighting games are too much of a "simon-says reaction test". You need to make the game so accessible that a casual can pick up the controller and at least have a chance of winning,
>>747590163>allergic to learningI'm allergic to spending 3+ minutes between each match menuing, loading into training, and recreating the combo that killed me because fighting game devs have not bothered to automate the entire process automatically during matchmaking.
>>747592942have special rules fights in the story/arcade mode>character can only be damaged by grapples>character can only be damaged by being gaurded against>character can only be damaged by parries>character can only be damaged through kick combos>character can only be damaged while in the air>etcits not too much to learn all at once and forces repetition
>>747564423Same problem as RTS.Biggest audience is casuals who only want a fun&memorable campaign, followed by a bunch of fun PvE game mode where they can dick around.Yet the games get designed around what the top 0.001% players on the planet can actually do, and the solo content is bare-bone because focusing on PvP mean no need to make effort on content amount.
>>747593303These are fine, but too many can get gimmicky
>>747564423You can't fix a genre where the gameplay loop was made for arcades 15-25 mins of fun before it gets redundant
>>747593209You realize you could do the same in fighting games, right?
I play fighting game arcade modes once every couple of days. They're fun. But like, maybe $20 per game fun. Ranked is gay retardation.
>>747593393>TOO MUCH CHEESE>MORE MACARONI>TOO MUCH MACARONI>LESS CHEESE>I DONT LIKE FIGHTING GAMESJust make sure you dont spam them and leave room for experimenting
>>747593571hence they should be $20 at launch.This has been a no-brainer for years. They can sell the whales all of the costumes and recolours they like.
>>747593393I understand. I always liked how it was handled in soulcalibur. Another angle could be that its more focused to lower difficulties so as you git gud you dont do such simplistic ones and theres a few in there that are more challenging and not just pseudo tutorial fights
>>747593664>experimentingThere's a key word that's been lost in fighting games. But yes, allowing experimentation is what would genuinely spark interest for more players
>>747593675Also, if they were $20 at launch, kids would be more likely to get into them. That's how you build future fans.
I'm still gonna try and make mine
>>747589761These aren't invisible mechanics. There is a visual associated with instant blocking, and instant blocking will happen naturally and by accident through normal gameplay. If you notice that sometimes when you block there's a white flash, you can try to isolate the conditions under which it happens and then figure out what the effect is. You probably won't know the precise amount of frame advantage you recoup for it, but you will know more or less what it does. The visual works as an indication for something that you can then discover yourself through normal gameplay. Now if that isn't enough, you can, of course, use the in-game tutorial to tell you explicitly what these mechanics are and how they work, but you will be introduced to them naturally as you play the game.
>>747564423I think SF6's most important aspect is actually having singleplayer worth a damn.
>>747564647I feel like fighting games have a serious problem in accompanying casuals getting there. I have been getting into more niche and demanding arcade genres like rythm games and STGs and those give you a path for progression even if they can also be frustrating at times. With fighting games you're gonna be stuck as a casual unless you go through weeks of intense CBT. I think Melee is as popular as it is partly because of the high skill ceilling movement tech but also because it's a game that gave you all the tools to improve and get better at the game until you get confident enough to compete instead of leaving you on your own with a story mode that teaches you nothing and a training mode that's useless.
>>747593675Yeah people wanted to shill F2P but the real answer is just a cheap product, especially compared to AAA games. Normies can pick up the game, play the arcade modes with characters they like, and then feel like they got their money's worth. Gouge the FGC tards with $25 season passes for more characters, and then 5 years later when the game popularity is winding down, release a full game re-release with all the characters for $20. It's win/win.
>>747593830The problem for defensive mechanics vs offensive ones is that most of the time you don't really know what you did and what effect it had, unless it's something completely obvious like Soulcalibur's Guard Impact
>>747593789Unfortunately you have to contest with the fact that all fighting games boil down to flowcharts of IF/ELSE statements. You can't do random shit cause its now no longer competitive, unless you're name is "Super Smash Brothers" you do not have that luxury.>erm ackshully Smash isnt a fi-Not getting into that discussion. Point is, players have sucked all the experimentation out every single time by pro players and if you play online and wanna try something different you will get shit stomped. Low tier warriors guided by top players are the only exception but i can count em on one hand
>>747593227I haven't touched SF6 since launch, but I remember it having some sort of AI ghost rematch or replay of the last match. Maybe I'm misremembering
>>747564647>They need to stop catering exclusively to hardcore prosWho the fuck thinks this is what's happening with modern fighting games? Have you ever played a fighting game?
>>747582679>You could also look at games like smash brothersThat is exactly how you make a successful fighting game if your goal is mass appeal. The reason Smash works is because it's easy to play, easy to learn, doesn't require you to actually seriously learn how to play a character to be effective with them even in endgame content or against other people, comes with an enormous amount of singleplayer goals and content that the multiplayer is borderline irrelevant, and also works in multiple settings (1v1, 2v2, 4v4, FFA, etc.).Balancing and catering to frame data autists is borderline nonexistent unless it truly harms the game like Meta Knight, Bayonetta, or Steve, and they actively make moves to stop certain things frame data autists use to get advantages like when they added the tripping feature. There is also nothing close to even something like singleplayer Bison or Dural level of difficulty unless you crank the bots to 9 and even then they feel more fair and reasonable to fight even as an absolute casual.I'm someone who can't get into fighting games despite having constantly given them chances since childhood but enjoys Smash and stuff like Jojo ASB because of the singleplayer content and simple approach. I do not want to play against other people outside of my direct friends and do not want to spend time learning movesets that take any thought to do. Do I like watching LET'S GO JUSTIN-tier gameplay? Absolutely. But you're not gonna get me into buying Injustice, Mortal Kombat, Blazblue, Marvel Tokon, Marvel/Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, FotNS, Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct, and so on when I am asked to seriously play a character and learn them to see any success and the focus is all on multiplayer, not singleplayer. There's a reason why Budokai and its ilk still have massive appeal to this day and age and it's because of how easy it is to play the characters, same deal with the Naruto games.
>>747565212>you(Me) should probably post the(My) actual article>because I made this thread and then replied to myself just to shill my blogNeck yourself
>>747580561I disagree. Because sf and Tekken fill that role better than strive. Strive is a weird middle ground that just sucks in every way. I think Xrd had problems too but was better than strive. But Plus R is the definite peak.
>>747564647nah, it's not fighting game's fault, it's just the change how gamers consume multiplayer content. With the advent of team based games you can now blame loses on your teammates. With fighting games, the loss is entirely on you and most people don't want to deal with that kind of self reflection in a video game.The best move for a fighting game now would be to add multiplayer modes where you can be on the same team. I think that League of Legends game did that, but that game was mechanically pretty shit and MOBA players were never going to leave their toxic sandboxes anyway.If Marvel Tokan had 2 player teams (and no Sony bullshit) then that could've been something. Honestly, Street Fighter X Tekken and Tekken Tag 2 had the right idea, but even then you're team is limited to 1 other person so it's hard to not build tension between you two after a loss. Plus one player is kind of left waiting while the other person fights. Maybe a Marvel based game with 3 players or a totally new concept with 4 players and actively switching between matches going on at the same time?You'd have to get crazy with the formula, but the main thing holding fighting games back isn't execution as a quarter circle isn't that fucking hard, it isn't the characters as you can find thousands of fan art images and straight porn of characters made by people that have never touched the game...nah the real issue is that you can't have 5 people playing simultaneously on the same team where everyone can shift blame on each other or share wins. Maybe something like Fatal Fury's lane system where multiple fights can happen at the same time and you can shift to different layers to join in the rest of your team's fight? Or maybe something as simple as Smash allowing for 4+ players. Just needs something to get everyone playing at the same time.
>>747564647For as much shit as Smash and MK get, they solved this problem forever ago (though the later games have been lacking a bit).
>>747594710I don't think that's the problem. The problem is booting up a new game, and immediately getting pounded into a wall, before you eve understand what's going on.That doesn't really happen in other genres. You tend to have a bit of space to get to grips with where you are and how the controls work.
>>747594710>2 player teamsIf only there was a recent fighting game that had this... maybe one that also just announced it would no longer be supported... hmm...
>>747564423>Negligible single player content you can exhaust in 20 minutes, just grind input-reading bots that teach bad habits for a two sentence summary of bullshit shat out by some intern that would have been in the manual 20 years ago>Competitive means signing up for a second, unpaid job for a few months so you can finally play the game, also this investment goes out the window for the sequel>Game is going to be replaced by Ultra Plus Turbo XXX Tag Remix Deltamax Brojob Extreme 2 next year anyways, pay up or fall behind, piggy>+30 dollar DLC tip for the four characters they couldn't be assed to ship with the game (one of them is tier 0 meta, and you can't even lab against them without paying. Just as planned)>Featuring Gandalf the Grey, Gandalf the White, Monty Python Holy Grail's Black Knight, Jamba the Genie, Leader Blue Meanie, Darth Vader, Lo-Pan, every Power Ranger, Cowboy Curtis, Dok Ock, The Rock, AI reconstructed Chuck Norris, Peter Griffin, the Battletoads, Goku and Homelander in the fortnite battlepass crossover slop (You can't kill Darth Vader or Peter Griffin because of the licensing deal, they just walk away at 0 health)>Game launches with no balance oversight, enjoy the game being worked on for two fucking years and dealing with bullshit like the month character X has a consistent touch of death a chimpanzee can pull off, or the month all the projectiles beat attacks>Realistic cumstain physics that cost 2 million dollars to design, also the game has like two voice clips for that attack that will be spammed 60+ times per match, stone age matchmaking, and no content>Buy our 200 dollars of skins, this is also why there's no single player contentWHY IS THIS GENRE FAILING GUYS, IT'S BECAUSE ZOOMERS HAVE NO PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY, RIGHT FUCKING ZOOMERS
>>747564423honestly pvp games in general are losing their appeal FAST because of how autistic some people can be while playing themanything higher than people button mashing against each other becomes an arms race of who can be more autistic than who with setups and combo flowchartssingleplayer games are genuine fun, you can just play the game without worrying about whatever enemy you're fighting knowing EXACTLY what to do to counter anything you try
>>747564647Get rid of inputs. Inputs are a technical limitation of 40 years ago that have been held onto for no fucking reason, that immediately filters 80% of the potential players. They simply will not learn them. Not can't, won't. It's a layer of bullshit the modern gamer just won't put up with.
>>747565396just ask gpt-astra to turn it into a few 1-minute clips
>>747595263Considering the majority of a character's move list is superfluous bullshit, this should really be the top priority. Every single actual move can be assigned to a button and a direction
>>747594459>Balancing and catering to frame data autists isYou don't know what this means, you don't know what impact any gameplay changes at this level will have on the game, this is literally irrelevant to you but you're acting like it's damaging your playing experience. Every pseud spectator does this. Those changes are not for you, they do not impact you and they do not in any way prevent the developer from adding the things which would encourage people like you to play more fighting games. ie. Single player content which introduces the actual flow of the game without appearing as a tutorial lecture, social onboarding features which encourage scrubs to take the first step of fighting online combined with matchmaking that's able to retain them, and the big one which is responsible for a large chunk of SF6's success: Renaming all of the ranked tiers so that every brand new button masher feels like they're doing really well because the game is telling them they're "Platinum"
>>747595263I think if anything the bigger barrier is the six button set up. I still don't really understand why I need so many buttons to attack. Two, maybe. Three, maybe.Inputs, as long as they aren't absurd can be kind of fun and intuitive.
>>747595498ThisSmash has committed a great many sins, but streamlining movesets and inputs is their crowning fuckin achievement.Most fighting games could absolutely be boiled down to a basic directional input+button, with punch/high, kick/low, and special as buttons, and nothing would functionally change, besides people actually play the game now.
>>747595263Bronze player here. I can assure you that even the lowest tier players can and will spam input moves. The idea that this is a barrier is a complete fantasy.
>>747564647I feel like the issue most casuals have with fighters is that they're really one-dimensional. Not in the sense that the combat engine lacks depth, but moreso that the combat engine is all the game really has, and the combat engine usually resolves to pretty superficially similar situations. The idea that you have an arcade mode where you can fight against NPCs that are either weak as shit or cheating motherfuckers and then you're just stuck grinding ladder is pretty unappealing.It'd be a bit like if an RPG was just randomized battles, without the overworld, without the progression and adventure. There's probably a market for an RPG that was just a really good battle engine with no fluff, but it would certainly be small. Most people don't really want to autistically grind fights without a reason to care.I think games not taking the integrity of their battles too seriously and i.e. having a story mode with 100 sequential goofy shit challenges would already go a long way. Bonus points if the reward is more goofy shit to stack on top. Soul Calibur 2 was basically that and I recall it doing pretty well.
>>747595801>you don't know what impact any gameplay changes at this level will have on the game, this is literally irrelevant to you but you're acting like it's damaging your playing experienceThe point is that by focusing on constantly balancing and rebalancing this it minutely helps the casual player in ways they won't perceive and primarily helps and shuts up the comp players who are an overall smaller part of the picture if your goal is to get casual players to care.>Those changes are not for you, they do not impact you and they do not in any way prevent the developer from adding the things which would encourage people like you to play more fighting games.They do impact the casual player because it shifts focus to a very small group of people (The competitive players) over the ones who you are trying to get to buy the game. When all the patches focus on tweaking minute things over introducing new maps, new ways to fight, new skins, new game modes, new story missions, new events, and so on it does actually matter.>social onboarding features which encourage scrubs to take the first step of fighting online combined with matchmaking that's able to retain themBut that's the thing, multiplayer should not be encouraged or focused on. It should just exist as a thing you can do. Singleplayer should be the focus if your goal is retention, not multiplayer. You shove multiplayer in there so that if you want to do that and compete against someone real it exists, but otherwise it should be in a dark unswept corner off to the side for the curious and the sweats to deal with while the majority of the players sit in the constantly updating singleplayer.Again, I am not a fan of fighting games and I understand the the appeal to a lot of the fans is the 1v1, the learning aspect, and the complexity of it. I am saying that if you want to appeal to a casual fighting game player like me this is how you would at least shift to trying to do it.
>>747596290AgainThe issue is not can't, it is won't.You can find low tier players who can, but the genre is bleeding out and dying because it's a thing many players simply will not put up with
>>747595263> get rid of inputsanybody wanting to get rid of inputs are too retarded to understand why they are there and why flash kick's inputs are different from the shoryuken motion
Old fighting games had a ton of problems compared to modern ones but they sold well and had casual appeal.Maybe the problem is that Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee movies are not popular anymore and casuals realized that fighting games is just two dudes fighting on 10 meters of a 2D plane so instead they play other games where you can move around freely in a 3D environment.
>>747596505>The point is that by focusing on constantly balancing and rebalancing thisThe people responsible for not removing frame advantage on block from drive rush normals for 3 entire years are completely unrelated to the people who would be building your world tour mode. Suggesting that making balance changes to the game in some way detracts from your ability to scrub it up in the single player mode is retarded. You are retarded. Artists are not combat system designers>Again, I am not a fan of fighting games but you should make sure you don't do anything to make the game better for people who might actually buy themFuck off
>>747596614If they can but don't want to, what makes you think they will do something else? It seems much more likely that they would just quickly realize that inputs were not what makes fighting games hard and still give up.
it's time to come home, /v/
>>747564423I don't know why you guys are worried, i am almost sure SF, MK and Smash are forever as they would have to try really hard to flop hard and also not be made again, ok we might not get any other fighting games barring those 3 but i think something like guilty gear, tekken and so on can release from time to time
>>747564647fighting game players pretty much exclusively like shooting their own feet off,none of them even wanted good online play until covid killed all of their events
>>747565045I fucking wish. Modern fighting games, including SF6, play nothing at all like SF2. They are two very different genres of video game at this point.
Fighting games are mostly incomprehensible nonsense to me. You mash buttons, and either you win or lose. You never really understand what you did or if you played the game well or got lucky.Why would I throw if I can kick? Why would I kick if I could medium punch? No matter how much I play these things, it never makes sense.
>>747564647the problem isn't pros per-se, im going to tell you what the problem is the games are all designed for e-sports and tournaments, the goal is to make these games marketable to advertisers not fighting game players what ends up happening is slowly but surely the fun gets stripped away and replaced with sanitized slop and the people who play them have to get ready for evo because obviously they are going to be the next big star, its actually the starcraft 2 problem, everyone has to go all in on apm because you're at a severe disadvantage if you don't the problem isn't really pro play its everyone is prepping for a tournament they aren't going to make it to, everything becomes whats "meta" fun becomes an after thought and just having good fights isn't enough.
>>747594515SF and Tekken being simple and successful games does not make the market for simple games not worth entering as seen with the game's reception. Also Strive being a decent middle ground is the exact reason it did so well to this day even compared to rising, a game much simpler and with objectively more content. Still has anime stupidity/a very thin or shallow layer of complex to keep people interested but is simple enough that people from other games want to get into it and keep playing while not being put to sleep by it like rising does. Just being like a previous game but with new graphics would not work as seen with it not working in the past despite sfv causing an exodus of people trying new games. even fb understands that they couldn't just make mbtl like aacc even if many fans of aacc would prefer that. Would work with Tekken though but bamco is neck and neck with snk in retardation.
>>747597450>You never really understand what you did or if you played the game well or got lucky.If by "you" you mean (you) then yeah, I guess you're right. You could try to learn so you're less of a brainlet.
>>747564423https://youtu.be/gYEJQ6Hj600?si=TRX1hFVBEhNODx-O
>>747597450For me something like smash is incomprehensible but i can understand something like SF6(my main weakness are grabs) but a good reflex is a must for fighting as you need to react to lot of shit
>>747566146smartest catnigger ever
>>747597450>Why would I throw if I can kick?Because you're at close range and your kick is slow enough that you're likely to just get thrown or jabbed by the opponent if you try it.>Why would I kick if I could medium punch?Maybe your kick is angled upward and makes for a good anti-air. Or maybe it has longer range and thus can keep the opponent out better at mid-range.
>>747596505>They do impact the casual player because it shifts focus to a very small group of people (The competitive players) over the ones who you are trying to get to buy the game. When all the patches focus on tweaking minute things over introducing new maps, new ways to fight, new skins, new game modes, new story missions, new events, and so on it does actually matter.How does it shift the focus? Are we pretending that tweaking framedata is a massive undertaking that takes the whole team? The fact of the matter is that what you just laid makes no sense aside from skins or characters. Also what popular multiplayer game is constantly introducing new single player stuff? SF6, the biggest in the genre only does a balance patch twice a year. The rest are all skins, characters, and battle pass stuff.>CS2literally just balance patches, maps, and skins. Maps here would be most equivalent to characters which do get made for fighting games.>LeagueBalance, skins, characters>Dotasame>CoDYearly release AND maps, skins>fortniteBattlepass with skins, emotes, etc. Map gets updated along with weapons available every once in a while. new weapons are added to keep things fresh.I'd say none of them focus on updating single player content. Even less popular games like Rocket League aren't doing that. Or really, any game that is based on competitive play instead of cooperative.>But that's the thing, multiplayer should not be encouraged or focused on. ... while the majority of the players sit in the constantly updating singleplayer.At that point why are you making a fighting game? Just make it a single player action game. Surely then you can come up with a better battle system since it doesn't need to be "fair" for the enemies as well. Singleplayer should exist, but ideally someone enjoys it enough to play multiplayer. If they don't, then fine that's fine but why would you kneecap the game to keep updating a singleplayer mode over everything else?
>>747597569>mash buttons>winI feel mild satisfaction, but it's undercut by the fact that I have no idea *why* I won. At what point does it start making sense?
>>747597006>Suggesting that making balance changes to the game in some way detracts from your ability to scrub it up in the single player mode is retarded.I genuinely don't think you get it. The very fact minor things serious players care about is being focused on over the casual experience is the issue because it shows they're prioritizing minor complaints and balancing over things that actually matter to the majority of people and it's taking up time and energy that could be placed elsewhere to add to the game. Unless there is some game-breaking ToD or a character is completely broken just leave everything be even if it annoys people. I mean hell, Marvel Rivals literally just decided to give the comp scene and balancing the middle finger and unbalanced the game last season and barely made tweaks at all outside of the most egregious stuff and the game is better for it now.>Fuck offThis entire thread is discussing about how to get people like me to buy fighting games. I am explaining to you how to get people like me to buy fighting games. I didn't say you had to like it, I even gave you Smash as the poster child for how you do it. I already acknowledge that half the stuff I am saying goes against why people even like this genre in the first place but again, Smash is basically the gold standard for how to make a fighting game that actually appeals to people.>>747597032>what makes you think they will do something else?Smash gives you access to multiple specials on command and people very quickly learn to use the other moves because they're just as easy to use and offer variety. If you get a guy who is only throwing out Hadoukens because he sees it's cheap chip damage and zones you then the problem is more with the fact he's allowed to do that ad nauseum without some sort of downside or the fact that the general way the combat is structured allows for that to be a legitimate threat. Realistically "zoning" using projectile spam shouldn't even be a thing.
>>747597797And how do I know any of this?
>>747576297Unlockables and DLC have nothing to do with each other. This is pure ignorance of how fighting games release models have worked over time.
>>74759795You can learn a lot of it through trial and error by just playing. It might not be fun at first, but eventually you will figure out what works and what doesn't.
>>747568726Are you retarded?
>>747564423Fighting games are a dog shit genre. You've played one, you've played them all
>>747597507forgot to put this in my post but another big problem and this springboards off my other points, analysis paralysis everyone believes they have to "understand" the game before they can actually play it, "you mean i need to sit in lab and learn everything about my character before i can play" instead of just learning to play the game how we all did, on the fly in a real match who cares how bad you think you are, just play the game learn as you go and slowly add complexity to your setups as you understand the game and its flow, people count themselves out before even trying and will see clips of the big streamers doing all this insane shit and all these complicated setups its overwhelming but heres a secret they won't tell you, and its a real one, the only thing you need to know is 1. don't jump, 2. block, 3. learn a SINGLE combo thats not complicated and you can replicate 10 out of 10 times without thinking about it, and watch as you absolutely fucking blow up the competition, i know it works because I DID IT MYSELF, i regularly body the top players in tekken all day.
>>747598412>Tekken plays exactly the same as Street Fighter or PowerstoneRetarded take.
>>747597889When you actually understand all your tools and what they're for. Modern fighting games actually tell you this in their tutorials. They'll straight up say things like "your down + hard kick is aimed upwards and will often catch a jumping opponent, try to use it when your opponent is in the air coming at you". It's entirely retard proof so I don't know where you're coming from with this idea.
>>747564423Bad products, also known as "good games"
>>747597897No you don't get it. The reason patch notes say "+1 on block to medium punch" and not "Added 3 new regions to the single player campaign with voice acting and cinematics" is not because the developer "prioritizes minor complaints". It's because the people and the budget necessary to do the latter is being used to make Onimusha, not an expansion to world tour. If you think the absolute bare bones dusting of the surface of gameplay changes that modern fighters get are in any way related to the lack of what you're asking for then you are too stupid to have this conversation and I am wasting my time replying to a tripfag
>>747597862>How does it shift the focus? Are we pretending that tweaking framedata is a massive undertaking that takes the whole team?No, it just shows that they're spending a reasonable amount of time over addressing issues that could be spent elsewhere when overall this would be an inconsequential thing for anyone but the most fervent of players.>Also what popular multiplayer game is constantly introducing new single player stuff?We're talking about fighting games and how they would appeal to casuals, not multiplayer games in general. Fighting games don't have to be multiplayer-focused at all, they just need to have a multiplayer component for people who wish to play it that way.Soulcalibur 2 was popular solely because Link appearing in it and it was easy to just mess around in it.Mortal Kombat was popular because of its gratuitous nature and how easy it was for a casual to pick it up and do the finishers.Street Fighter 2 and Killer Instinct were both popular because of their singleplayer modes casuals could easily play without learning anything.>I'd say none of them focus on updating single player content.See what I said above, but even using your examples three of them require next to no time investment to find fun in them at all since the gameplay is simple (CS2, CoD, and Fortnite) while you can't have fun with the other two unless you're a masochist (LoL and Dota).>At that point why are you making a fighting game? Just make it a single player action game.Because maybe people want that kind of gameplay rigidity but without the uphill climb to learn it? Maybe they want that more personal fighting that you don't see in a beat 'em up for example?>but why would you kneecap the game to keep updating a singleplayer mode over everything else?The entire argument here is based around the fact that they want the casual audience to stick with them to keep buying skins, characters, expansions, and more.
>>747587623Are you referring to evasion or interrupting strings? i.e. opponent is pressing a 5 attack string into your block but you know to duck the 3rd hit and interrupt it? That's not a combo breaker. Dead or Alive holds are combo breakers, Tekken is basically the epitome of solitaire "get launched and put your controller down to get a drink while your opponent combos for 14 seconds"
>>747598576It's literally the same shit.No one cares that Scramblo Scrapo uses B+Up for an uppercut instead of Up, Up+A in Fightan Faggot.
The most unique fighting game released in the last decade is For Honor, which had a terrible netcode, balancing, and gameplay for the first 7 years of it's life.
>>747595846There is only one noteworthy 6 button game outside of redundant but optimal crap like dash buttons. VF is punch, kick, guard and considered a super technical hard-core game, Tekken, BlazBlue, UNI and almost every SNK game is 4
>>747597958By learning, see what works and what doesn't, the basic fundamentals.
>>747597897>Smash gives ...Sure, but they are negligibly more difficult to do in a traditional fighter. The absolute bottom of the barrel in ranked (me) will use specials just as much as you see in Smash. It is hard to understand how removing them would improve the game when even the absolute worst players can do them with no issue. Beyond that, Smash is not even an easier game to play against competent players. I get beat just as badly there as I do in any other fighting game because it still comes down to having to anticipate and process multiple things your opponent could do. Smash has casual appeal for reasons that are completely different from the core mechanics.
>>747598472>>747597507its funny to because if you read this thread you'd think you need to have a phd in fighting games before you can play but i could show all of you my dms on steam or twitter where i regularly get people sliding into my dms to tell me in trash because i lean on the fundamentals i can't tell you how many tgp players i've won matches against by just sticking to the tried and true 1+2 and a few lows thrown in, if you just stick to the fundamentals of fighting games with proper spacing, proper mixups, serviceable movement, and learning to capitalize on your opponents mistakes you will just get carried to the top so quick it will actually surprise you.
>>747564423Add a good story mode and I'll be a hell of a lot more inclined to try a fighter.Only Smash Bros I played to this day was Brawl btw.
>>747598876>VF is punch, kick, guard and considered a super technical hard-core gameVF inputs are not new player friendly. You think they are because you can say they only have 2 attack buttons, but you'd be complaining about how obtuse and finicky the game is the moment you actually learn how it works. SF having different attacks on different buttons instead of on 99 different direction and button combinations that you have to learn character by character makes SF far more accessible
>fighting gamesdont like em too much reaction time stuff>FPS gamesdont like em dont wanna learn em too much the same thing>roguestoo hard and frustrating not for me>rpgstoo long not enough free time to enjoy em>racing gamesmost of them not fun anymore>soulslikestoo hard dont like em>beat em upstoo much button hitting bad for me joints>card games 4x strategy work simulatorsyeah now we talking, forklifts solitaire civ and rollercoaster tycoon like god intended
>>747599051my brain just doesn't work that way. I can't visually read what's happening very well, because it happens so quickly.>oh, this attack takes three more frames to come outI guess? I wouldn't have noticed until someone pointed it out.
>>747598635>It's because the people and the budget necessary to do the latter is being used to make Onimusha, not an expansion to world tour.No one is saying you have to spend an enormous amount of your budget on this stuff considering you are actively selling these things to the player to begin with so it's not like you're losing huge chunks of money. The point is that this focus on appeasing the serious players isn't really necessary unless there's something egregiously wrong like ToDs or genuinely broken hitboxes or damage values, and the time spent changing, testing, and iterating on that would be better spent adding new stuff to the game, however minor. Even if it's something as simple as some new recolor unlocked for beating 10 opponents with some specific move just do that instead because the majority of players will appreciate that more than minor tweaks.You know what got people back to Smash Ultimate a few years back? Spirit stages with themed stickers. Cost them virtually nothing to make but added hours of content to the singleplayer since they just reused skins that already existed, characters that already existed, and AI that already existed and all they had to do was add some PNGs to unlock.>>747599072>It is hard to understand how removing them would improve the game when even the absolute worst players can do them with no issue.Because you will at some point realize that the spam is worse than changing it up as you can now use new moves to counter other things as they try to counter your current spam and force you out of that loop and since it's as easy to do you're more likely to try it.>Smash is not even an easier game to play against competent players.Of course it isn't, but it's much easier for you to just pick up and a play any character in the roster with no prior knowledge or experience and know their whole kit in that fight. In a fighting game you will at best be able to do a few jabs and maybe a Hadouken input your first go.
>>747596290>even the lowest tier playersyou are describing the lowest tier of players who *stick with the game* despite the issues you absolute fucking retardthe players the games fail to retain aren't playing the gamelet alone multiplayerso you aren't playing against themyou fucking moronfighting game players who play fighting games are not the people who are not playing fighting gamesi'm saying this again because you are clearly dumb as a sack of shitpeople who dislike a product so they don't buy and use it are different from the people who bought and use the productcan you see how maybe these two groups might not overlap much?since the distinguishing factor between them is WHETHER THEY PLAY THE FUCKING DYING GAME GENRE OR NOTyou incomprehensibly mentally disabled fucktard
there is no "focus on appeasing the serious players" in 2026 retard, and you do not know this because you don't even play this genre
every single one of you in this thread is better at fighting games than you know, i could coach all of you for free and have you playing against competent players in a week or less.
>>747598671>three of them require next to no time investment to find fun in them at all since the gameplay is simple (CS2, CoD, and Fortnite)Fortnite is actually 0 fun if you just get raped by players with better aim, map knowledge, and building if you don't play no build. They stuff half the match with bots to try and alleviate this issue. Ditto for CS if you aren't just playing server browser custom games like a real hero. CoD is just a mixed bag if you suck.Also aiming is not simple. It's just a skill many are more practiced at because there are a lot of FPS games in the last 2 generations.>LoL and DotaBoth huge games though. >Because maybe people want that kind of gameplay rigidity but without the uphill climb to learn it? Maybe they want that more personal fighting that you don't see in a beat 'em up for example?So for the game to be satisfying it probably should have a difficulty curve right? So they'll have to learn something, if that isn't combos or neutral or whatever, then what? You can have a singleplayer 1v1 focused action game without pretending its a FG and tacking on MP.>The entire argument here is based around the fact that they want the casual audience to stick with them to keep buying skins, characters, expansions, and more.Yeah to keep the player numbers up for Multiplayer which should in turn get better cash flow for your Battle Pass. If you aren't doing that then you're better off trashing the multiplayer to make a better singleplayer game that isn't beholden to the MP even existing. Might wanna throw in Co-op though since skins don't really do well for singleplayer focused games. Even if they have MP.
>>747598671Sound like you just want something like Genshin, ZZZ, etc. with a combat system closer to FG then. Those are the only 1P games getting consistent updates that I know of. I feel like if someone could just turn a 1P game into a forever game by tacking on a 1v1 mode and then releasing mostly singleplayer stuff (characters being the exception) then they'd have done it.
>>747599946>there is no "focus on appeasing the serious players" in 2026 retardBalance patches, patches to hitboxes, and so on are "focus on appeasing the serious players". E-sports focus is "appeasing the serious players". Multiplayer focus at all is "appeasing the serious players". I know about them casualizing things with autocombos in a lot of more modern games or introducing features that are just a detriment to actual fans of the games to try and get casuals into the mix. Yeah, SF6 has the World Tour mode but its main focus is still the multiplayer, not the singleplayer. Killer Instinct last I saw was still about trying to get you to play multiplayer, same with Mortal Kombat. Marvel Tokon has a singleplayer story but outside of Survival that's basically all you have before being shoved into multiplayer.I'm talking more about having something like the Challenge Tower from Mortal Kombat. Maybe a game mode where you go up against 10 opponents and draw one card out of a group of 3 cards before each opponent at which point your opponent draws from the remaining two and each floor you go up both you and your opponent get so buffed each run is different. Just straight up rip off Smash and have some game mode where you have equips and fight AI with some modifier like exploding attacks or infinite energy or something. Have a pseudo-Mario Party game mode where you do small minigames like hitting bananas out of a tree or beating up a car.The multiplayer game mode should always be there for anyone who wants more serious competition or gameplay, but the focus should be casual singleplayer for the general player who never has to ever touch the multiplayer for any reason outside of their own volition.
The thing most fighting games are missing in my opinion is a decent single-player campaign. And by decent I mean it should have a good story and good cutscenes.
>>747582265Best QoL in the genre by far. It visually looks current gen without being realistic or generic. It's Street Fighter.
>>747599946Every fighting game is esports now which means every single one is appealing to "serious players". What companies don't know is that the vast majority of players are casual shitters that only pretend to be serious e-sports players because they want to be cool like their favorite FGC e-celebs.
NOAH THE GOAT
>>747600686thats totally fine, the problem i have is people have this aversion to multiplayer when they could easily compete, stop over complicating the games don't jump, just poke, learn a single easily reproducible combo that you can do without thinking, block, and don't jump and thats it, thats all you need to know so many people will watch these videos from the fgc that needlessly overcomplicates the game or intimidates people by telling them "its takes years to get good" when it takes mere minutes to get as prepared as you will ever need for your first multiplayer matches, analysis paralysis is the real culprit here.
>New Melty Blood>no Sion ????? I thought it was already fucked up Type Lumina didn't have Sion but the new MB doesn't have her either? what the fuck? this is HER sub series, why the fuck are they excluding her from the game when it's HER fucking game. >>747600824yeah I agree. you don't even need anything too deep. sparking zero or sc2 type story mode would be sweet. if they had something like Konami Powa Pro story mode that would be insanely kino.
>>747600595>Sound like you just want something like Genshin, ZZZ, etc. with a combat system closer to FG then. Foodie Fighters. Come on, miHoYo, let the based dev who gave Nico a 360 motion special attack, made Banyue's gatlings and asked Ramielle to be a fighting game player with a preference for grapplers make a full game.Or make a full "Hoyoverse" crossover fighter and introduce all those kids to the crack that is fightan.
>>747585437Are you the same retard who read the article thinking beat em ups would come up? Get it through your skull; fighting games and beat 'em ups are two different genres. You can't "fix" fighting games by making them beat 'em ups
>>747600841You obviously have no idea about game development or what it actually costs in terms of time, money and people to produce different kinds of content. You think the "focus" is on X because you heard a lot of noise about X, but making noise about X costs nothing. Having one guy half-arse a balance patch every 6 months costs nothing. That guy isn't even assigned to that project full time. Capcup is a relatively low effort marketing production and exists to promote a brand while having nothing to do with the development of the game. Fighting games are made on the cheap and given little or no support. This supposed effort to design the GAME for the benefit of a niche group which you believe exists does not exist, SF6 is not being supported it is being milked
>>747599541> In a fighting game you will at best be able to do a few jabs and maybe a Hadouken input your first go.The commands are often setup in similar ways for different characters so that you can pick a new character and figure out the special moves quickly even on the fly. Like how different directions in smash tend to be associated with different functions, the same applies to different command inputs in traditional fighting games. Understanding how you might want to use your different normals depending on the situation is probably harder since there may be more options.>>747599672My point is if something really easy is that much of a turn off because it is too much effort, then what happens when they get to the actual hard parts? What overlap is there between people who are unwilling to learn easy things and also willing to learn hard things? I don't think this is the way to appeal to casual players such as myself.
>>747601225technically Final Fight was in development as a Street Fighter game until they decided to make it a different thing. There's connective tissue.Also, they have made fighting game/beat em up hybrids before. That's Mortal Kombat Mythologies, which actually was a cool idea and not that bad of a game.
Unironically why can't SF6 be the only game in the genre? CAPCOM is doing a great job
>>747600332>Fortnite...At the end of the day even people new to KBM or a controller will be able to get a few kills and understand how to play the game in general even in their first match without having to be told what does what. At best build mode in Fortnite will take some more time but even then they will be able to build some structure. You can't say the same about a fighting game. You'll be lucky if they know basic jabs and kicks and learning even a single character's kit is hours upon hours of investment that no other genre of gaming requires. Hell, even LoL and Dota let you fumble around with random ass equips from the store and get kills. Just doing finishers in JJASB requires a whole set of commands which are different per character.>if that isn't combos or neutral or whatever, then what?It's simply being able to fight the enemy at a controlled pace with easy access to their full kit without having to learn that kit prior to that. Their goal is beating the singleplayer content 100% and learning how to react with a character properly through that process due to the increasing difficulty.>>747600595>Sound like you just want something like Genshin, ZZZ, etc. with a combat system closer to FG then.Assuming you mean like in a live service way then they're more or less already doing that. Ideally you take the ease of playing a character from Smash but in fighting game gameplay and combine it with the live service update model for content you have already created. Future patches/DLC would be new characters, skins, and new singleplayer game modes or additions to existing ones that provide you with new skins, avatars, frames, speech blurbs, titles, and so on. Anything that is easy to do with little monetary investment. Then add battle passes or some sort of progression system to keep them hooked.This is assuming you want the casual audience to stay rather than your diehards.
>>747600949I will keep whiffing cross ups and your logic and thinking won't and can't stop me
>>747601564>The commands are often setup in similar ways for different characters so that you can pick a new character and figure out the special moves quickly even on the fly.Yeah, but the very fact you have to learn the commands at all is already a huge hurdle 98% of people are not going to want to interact with let alone relearn for every single character and potentially relearn the next time a new game releases with that character since something will have changed. There's still the entire initial learning curve for the first character and even if some of that carries over to another character you've already lost like 80% of your audience.At the end of the day the ideal way to make fighting game combat casual-friendly is just to turn the kits into Smash, I don't see any other way to easily do it that attracts the casual fanbase. Combos immediately stop anyone but diehards willing to invest the time from caring, each character having their own unique set of combos to learn just further pushes them away if they're not easily usable, and having to do this on the fly while taking spacing and reactionary attacks into consideration furthers the gap. I know they've already tried this and people hated it, but realistically what other options can you think of to get the casual fanbase involved when they've already tried virtually everything? DBZF was like the only thing to move the needle and then Tokon was the only thing since then to even slightly interest people.
>sophistry and excuses for why I don't play fighting games even though I totally would if you just changed literally everything about them into something else entirely (I still wouldn't): The Thread
>>747602476>but realistically what other options can you think of to get the casual fanbase involved when they've already tried virtually everything?I'd go with some of what I think were suggestions you also made in response to others. Significant single player content where there is no pressure and the game will have time to introduce you to mechanics and learn controls at a reasonable pace. It should ideally also try to teach you strategy to go along with controls since that is where many fighting game tutorials are lacking.
>>747602896I'd play them if I had people to play them with. I said that to begin with.I don't like the online fighting game community.
>>747578912>So which is the bigger problem? The gameplay, the amount of content or catering to the "FGC"?The FGC in itself is the problem. No one should ever listen to the FGC about anything.
>>747585437Those games exist. Most recently.Streets of Rage 4TMNT: Shredder's RevengeMarvel Cosmic RevengeThere's a bunch in the indie space. You guys come up with the same idea every time. The two are not compatible genres. Their combat mechanics offer entirely experiences.
>>747602078
>>747564423What does /v/ know less about but act like they know all the answers off, more often: Fighting Games or Politics?
chess has this same problem, you have people like ben finegold tell people you'll never be a gm or be good at chess, so people will literally never play chess because in their minds its a game for only magnus carlson and the other gms you can't play chess at all if you weren't born gifted and pushed into it by your parents at 2 years old so no one ever does, people DON'T play chess BECAUSE so many people like ben tell people you can't get good so don't play AND THEY FUCKING DONT, well heres the thing, you don't have to be magnus carlson to enjoy a game of chess and the fucking retards who peddle this nonsense online are killing their hobby, stop saying shit like this you push people who would play for fun and casually out the door immediately with this rhetoric, when you could just give them simple tips like "learn a single opening and execute it until you understand it" slowly add complexity with interesting lines, and make sure you are not giving away material for free, and you'd have plenty of people going "oh thats it?" instead you tell people "if you can't play at the top level you're a retard kill yourself and never touch chess again" which is exactly what the fgc does and so does chess.
My idea?You double down on complex combat mechanics. Fuck the people that can't do motion inputs or bitch about combos. If Ball and Gun gamers can do Elastico and Reverse Elastico, then you fucking can too. Just make a good fun mechanical fighter and just wrap it around an RPG. Your random encounters are just fights with a variety of mooks.World Tour was close but it didn't go far enough
>>747604192Capcom keeps adding shit to World Tour, including new modes involving your grotesque homonculus avatars so I assume there's some kind of analytical data being sent to them that proves people do play these modes despite everyone saying they don't and it's a waste of money.
I played a fighting game once.I lost a match and then proceed to complain that my team sucked and that is why i lost.Then i realized there was no team i lost by myself.It made me reilize that i am not the best gamer who ever lived and this is unacceptable.I managed to salvage my pride by reporting the other player for cheating because that is the only explanation how i lost.
>>747591158Midway and NRS have understood that kneecapping your game in a genre that has so little to offer outside of 1v1 matches won't let it have mass appeal. You can point to MOBAS and other multiplayer genres as 'competitive' multiplayer only games that thrive just fine, but those genres are saturated as fuck too and only a handful can really be considered successful despite many having more players than even the most successful fighting games. Fighting games are so limited in how you can play them and have done squat to shake up their formulas by offering different ways to play their games. It feels disingenuous when FGCfags tell you the multiplayer component is the game because if you just compare how fighters shape up compared to the average shooter, it's honestly pitiful despite both genres being around the same age. Ways you play a fighting game: >Ranked/Unranked with randoms>Private lobbies/locals >Training mode>Combo trials (usually include impractical as fuck combos no one bothers using in a real match)>Arcade/Story mode (virtually no different in most cases)FPS Games:>Story/Campaign (Can be pretty fleshed out and also have coop)>PVE gamemode>PVP Team CTF>PVP Team with capture points>PVP Deathmatch>PVP Attack/Defend>Battle Royale>PVP Free For All Deathmatch>Non-conventional game modes like surf, griff ball, infection, ect.Basically the point is MK's devs understood that fighting games offer such a small package for a multiplayer game they can't garner much interest off of multiplayer alone and lackluster single player options. Now NRS shit somehow outsells every other franchise even at its lowest. Yeah, the tournament numbers are lacking, but who honestly gives a shit. Plenty of fags still play MK online, and it's a cross-platform series. Meanwhile all other franchises are doing is dumbing down their games, because one legacy series did it and are failing for it.
Normies will never stay with a fighting game long term no matter how easy it or hard it is so you may as well make your gameplay deep and i am saying this as a shitter.
We need to get rid of the ecelebs who implant ideas into the fighting game devs
>>747604805Where is the single player mode in CS2, TF2, Valorant, Apex, R6S, Tarkov, Overwatch, Marvel Rivals, PUBG, Fortnite, and every other shooter people actually play this decade that isn't Call of Duty? You are out of touch grandpa. Halo 3 was a gorillion years ago and nobody was playing it for cock chugging Grifball (SF6 has a whole ass meme mode people only play for weekly challenges).
>>747598576Unable to use the word "opinion"?
you guys don't need to be a physicist to play fighting games or chess, reduce the complexity into easily digestible and reproducible steps, people want to play like they are about the win evo when they haven't even learned how to move their character in a 3d space or to slow themselves down so they can process whats going on without sperging out and spamming buttons, the needless over complication and the feeling that you have to be the best in the world to play is what stops people from playing, when the reality is the bar to ENTRY IS VERY LOW AND WELCOMING you don't need to know the 500 hit strings and those suck anyway, the simpler the answer is the better.
>>747598172>Deleted postWhat did anon post?
>>747594996>Game is going to be replaced by Ultra Plus Turbo XXX Tag Remix Deltamax Brojob Extreme 2 next year anyways, pay up or fall behind, piggyYou dont play fighting games.
>>747595263No. Execution is a skill. The execution skill floor has gotten low enough as it is.
>>747604805>Fighting games are so limited in how you can play them and have done squat to shake up their formulas by offering different ways to play their games.God I can't fucking stand people like you, pretending to be some expert when it is so obvious to someone who has experience on a competitive level that you're not when you say nonsense like this.Stop making out that fighting games need to change their formulas to be relevant.
>>747605961this thread makes me realize the fgc needs a simplicity coach this guys job is to remind people that the barrier to entry is only needing to know 3 things, block, don't jump, and poke thats all a new player in the fgc needs to know, his job is to coach newbies on those 3 things and thats it, he watches them do a few matches gives a few simple tips that won't melt a new players brain like korean backdashing and then he leaves to find a new newbie to educate on the simplicity of fighting games and how easy it is to learn in these 3 simple tips, fgc twitch streamers HATE HIM.
>>747564647>They need to stop catering exclusively to hardcore prosStopped reading after this because low skill players are not worth listening to.
>>747605527TF2 literally has a PVE horde mode and a plethora of PVP modes. It doesn't need singleplayer because the multiplayer component is so huge that the competitive format is just a tiny fraction of the game. Fortnite also added a gorillion different gamemodes to itself. Call of Duty includes nearly all of that shit despite being yearly released pump and dumps that sell regardless. Siege, PUBG, Valorant, Apex, Overwatch are stand out successes in their respective subgenres when dozens of copycats failed to capture their audience (with the exception of Fortnite and Rivals). Right now SF6, Tekken 8, and Strive are the most successful fighters currently supported yet MK1, a shitty game even by NRS slopper standards, has outsold all of them.
>>747595263Even Sakurai agrees you're a retard.https://youtu.be/zswiCPS5CSM?si=8vmTdF6WXAvpjfKx&t=83
>>747606167Unfortunately if you poke in SF6 you just instalose to someone mashing the drive impact button, and in a sense it's really obvious to a new player that the game is now drive impact chicken but it also obfuscates what the fuck fighting games actually are.
>>747597450Start from herehttps://strategywiki.org/wiki/Street_Fighter_II/Gameplay
Have the niggas begging for spoonfeeding ever played a board game?
>>747606590you're right to a degree, but an absolutely new player doesn't need to know that, they don't know what a poke is, they don't know not to jump, all they know is stuff is happening im getting stressed out i must spam buttons and jump, or they mistakenly believe everyone in the fgc is a savant and they are just a dunce, the needless overcomplication in the advice people give to a new player and the rhetoric is what gets people never playing fighters.
>>747606006>Game that only offers a singular mode of play is somehow not limited >UGH you want to give casuals more to do? Stop trying to fundamentally change our genreNobody said anything about removing the core component of fighters, you fag. They will always be 1v1 games, and that's fine, but if they want to capture a broader audience, they're going to have to offer more for them to do than online play and a shitty arcade mode. Devs would rather continuously dumb down existing franchises because the average joe assumes a quarter circle is impossible to pull off.
>>747564423Fighting games are for niggers and nigger wannabes.
>>747606775I don't know, you still need to give people a reason to play the game which doesn't really exist if you simplify it too much but maybe the only good way to do that is early 90s arcades and 2023 Japanese vtubers and esports creating extrinsic motivation.
>>747588040Combos need to be learnable while playing normally, instead of being something that requires you to carefully follow along a combo tutorial video in training mode.The question is how to actually make that possible.
>This game looks neat but it has no one online so I won't play it>This game looks neat but there's no tournaments with a prize pool so I won't play it>Well people are still playing Street Fighter so I guess I'll just continue playing thatMeanwhile every one else is playing Fortnite and Roblox with 0 interest in anything else.
>>747607024im not saying to simplify the gameplay im saying people need to simplify HOW THEY DIGEST, LEARN, AND EXECUTE. the gameplay isn't what im talking about im saying that people overcomplicate what they are supposed to do, no you don't need to know the theoretical max damage punish, no you don't need to know korean backdashing, and no you don't need to have this complex plan of attack based on each individual member of the roster, im saying for a new player and people who don't play fighters they try to learn everything all at once or get crippled with analysis paralysis its a big reason why i tell new players to don't use the lab its a trap because it puts players in a position where they are learning against an npc that doesn't react, they don't know what they are labbing or why, and they are just going to get weighed down by information overload its a terrible mechanic its great for people who know the game to learn its intricacies like frame data etc but a new player doesn't need this, AND i'd argue its detrimental to a players progression yet you see so many people telling everyone "lab everything" im saying people need to learn the fundamentals.
>>747606885>Asians are the best fighting game players>Anon cries about blacks
>>747602896I think we need to stop blaming new potential players not wanting to play for the current state of the genre. That's how you get a dead genre. I think the post linked in >>747565212 makes a lot of sense.
>>747571882I have no idea really but I'd guess they're way more expensive to make and harder to balance than it's worth for how small their playerbase and little their profits.
>>747608065No I get that and mostly agree but if you introduce people that know nothing about the game with "bro just block and press HK" they are going to think it's boring.
>Inputs suckFighting games inputs suck. Controllers are not user friendly, the dpad fucking sucks to do finger rolls. People get arcade sticks for FGs for a reason. It is not just muscle memory, gamepads are inferior to arcade sticks, otherwise professionals would learn to play on gamepads. The inclusion of hitboxes further proved it.>Online has been an afterthought for the past 20 yearsThey hanged the man who brought forth working online.>Extremely simple gameplayOnce you get past the hurdle of shitty inputs, most FGs are stupidly simple. It is like learning a piano, but all you really do is learn one song.>Lack of player agendaEverything is too optimized and rigid. There is no unique way for players to express themselves through gameplay. You just download the music sheet and play. The rest is RPS. Automating the gameplay is the norm.>Shit PvP cultureEvery FG player demands a ranked matchmaking, because the mating ritual to start a match sucks. It is like asking for a dance partner. You have to ask a stranger to dance with you, and if you're not up to their skill level they hate you for it. And if they're not up to your level, you try to get it over with and find a new partner. Nobody wants to learn to dance.
>>747607763It's funny, a lot of hardcore players say modern games like SF6 have been "simplified", but that's not entirely the case. Sure, it's easier to execute special moves, links, etc, but combos continue to get longer and longer, new systems get added, new resources to managed, all of those things make it harder for a new player to approach the game. Meanwhile, in SF2, doing a special move requires precise and fast execution, but other than that you just beat the other guy up. You don't have to think about drive gauge, DI, Parry, burnout, and so on. Yes, eventually SF2 added a super move mechanic and a super meter, but that's nothing compared to what we have today, it's a much more pure game.
>>747608583thats when you slowly drip feed the complexity as they grasp the fundamentals obviously they will stagnate with just those, the fun starts when you actually feel like you understand how to play the game a little bit and peoples natural inquisitiveness will take over from their, you teach them a few simple combos they can do without messing up after they have a good understanding of the basics, the games are fun when it starts making sense, the issue is people could write a series of novels about tekken or guilty gear, thats not a bad thing but if you tell a new player ok, im going to need you to read this 10,000 word essay and a video series that covers absolutely everything, THEN we'll get you into your first match.
>>747564647The real problem is that people are lacking focus.Tekken 8 is the first fighting game i really wanted to learn, and it brings EVERYTHING to the table to make it easy to learn.If you played through the Arcade Mode with the larping bobbleheads, you atleast learned some bread and butter combo with your character, and even how juggleing works.After maybe 7 hours online you get acustomed to most of the other shit like defensive play, movement options and all the other shit.People are cursed with the attention span of goldfishes, they simply cant bring themselfs to not lock at their phone for an extended period of time, they cant LEARN shit.
>>747564423One thing they can do is make what's safe on block and what's punishable more intuitive. Having to learn frame data fucking blows and it only gets worse the more characters get added.
>>747597537I mean the issue is strive didn’t get as popular as those games, and in practice it feels like a weird and very unenjoyable middle ground between anime and street fighter where you get the worst of every side, and it’s comically empty and shallow. I think if they made it like plus r, and the most they did was make some combos or frcs easier, it would be far more popular. The issue is they removed anything cool instead of making the cool stuff easier to do. So it’s just a boring game. I could fall asleep playing it, not even joking, I’d never get tired like I did when I played strive in plus r.
>>747564423He's not though. People have tried other things. Evil Zone. Psychic Force. Ehrgeiz. Power Stone. Etc. None of them stuck because the majority of people didn't take to them, regardless of what kind of nostalgia they might have. The only thing that stuck was Smash. Otherwise people like the traditional 2d and 3d fighter design.Like, where the fuck else are you even going to go with the genre at this point? Nobody's buying those K1, MMA, boxing, etc games. Nobody wants them either. Nobody wants VR so you can't do that. Maybe try not having them jewing the fuck out of you with a constant seasonal cost just to keep up with who's even in the game and make your money on cosmetics instead.>>747567950This isn't a valid answer at all except in the cases of absolutely batshit inputs games like arcana heart sometimes have.Directional inputs are not a problem for most people. The problem that really hits hard for even casual fighting fans, is timings. The more you bust a player's balls to get simple links and 2-in-1's working, much less anything deeper, the more they're going to get frustrated and drop your game.
>>747577509tranny infested game
>play soulcalibur 2 recently >its still fun as fuck and engaging with no gimmicksHow the fuck did we go from this to SC6?
>>747609769True, frame data in general is really hard to convey in an obvious way. How do you know a move is +1 on block instead of -1 just from looking at it? It's impossible (at least the way fighting games are now). Some indicator that tells whether a move is plus or minus and how much would definitely be a step forward.
>Fighting game inputs are just too hard and impractical!
>>747610054Colored hit sparks.
>>747609984kek
>>747610030I remember having a ton of fun playing SC2 recently with a friend who was a very casual fan of those games back in the day, as opposed to me, who has >10k hours in fighting games at this point. It's just like SF2, it's very pure and allows the players to focus on the real core gameplay of fighting games. It's exactly the type of fighting game that is excellent at grabbing a new audience, imo.
>>747564423guilty gear strive is pretty good. no gay black announcer either.
>>747610365It has some even worse stuff
>>747609852Give a 13 year old a copy of Alpha 3 and a modern controller and watch what they struggle with the most if you don't personally baby them through it and come back to me, I'll accept your apology then.
>>747609769It used to be. Basically in SFII the only moves that are negative besides a handful of wack garbage normals you never want to use are things that knock down on hit. Hit and block advantage are otherwise identical so anything that's a combo is a block string and vice versa. But the current devs think that's THE place to add complexity which is why in SF6 any given normal has block, DR block normal hit, counter hit, punish counter/DR, DR counter hit, DR punish counter, burnout block, and DR burnout block frame advantage for you to memorize and rattle off to people to impress them how much you know the game.
>>747610458https://youtu.be/ikuI2zGmdsI?si=wrlf9GSLIjG8X1uoI know about the bridgette thing. there is nothing like this in strive. the fact that any of you even give this game the time of day with this in it is why fighting games suck. you'll buy anything
>>747609984>(again)What's their fucking problem
>>747610646The only reason anyone remembers that faggot is in the game is doing some dumb poll for free drive tickets.
>>747610646I don’t play sf6 either. But strive has bridget, strivestament, and more. If I had to choose, sf6 is the lesser evil. But I myself will gladly stick to plus r. Strive is also just a bad game too. Not that sf6 is much better, but still.
They were fine when you had to go outside and play them, online ruined them
Took me forever to type up all my thoughts and replies, and now the thread is autosaging, RIP>>747564423>>747565212>>747567009>>747569650>>747578912>>747581767>>747581692Maybe fighting games selling poorly is a "product" issue, in the sense that Mortal Kombat sells boatloads in part because it offers more "content" per dollar, but are the majority of the people buying the newest MK title really actually "playing fighting games"? Most of them just plays the story, maybe a few rounds of vs with friends, gawks at some fatalities and never touches the game again. MK's model might help FGs sell more, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll play online or attend events. Some will like >747585459, but, say, MK is clearly worse at that then Smash is, so the question just becomes what >747588040 asksAnyways, in the essay OP posted, big single player modes are only part of what the author mentions, he also mentions minigames that can teach FGC concepts and fundamentals would both hook people into higher level play and give the title value as a party game for casuals (which I agree is a good idea, I've advocated for this for a while) and more visual customization unlocks (fine), but "recreating the arcade" with a interactive hub/lobby? Completely disagree, give me quick to navigate menusI think everybody is kinda wrong about this: Executives are wrong that simpler inputs will inherently help, the FGC as a whole is wrong that simpler inputs will inherently hurt, I think the people like >>747565839 , >>747583295 and >>747594710 who say "it being 1v1 means you can only blame yourself and casuals dislike that" are mostly wrong (IMO FG's being 1v1 IS part of the problem, see below, but not from "having only yourself to blame is discouraging", as losing from your teammates playing badly even when you played well sucks even more then blaming yourself in a 1v1 game) and I think the essay OP posted is mostly wrong tooran out of space
>>747610941Cont:I think it mostly comes down to these1. Fighting games simply have more inputs/actions to learn. Most genres have about as many actions as there are inputs on a controller. Your typical fighting game character probably has 2x, 3x or more moves then that in their movelist2. Fighting games feel "all or nothing" with winning and losing. In a FPS, you can get kills even if you lose the match. In a racing game, you can come in 2nd or 3rd even if you're not in 1st, etc. Fighting games have rounds, but at best, you can win 1 out of 2 rounds, vs in say an FPS you can get 10-20+ kills even if your team loses3. There's not a lot of room for a less skilled player to squeeze out a win or even a "micro win" (as I described above) in a fighting game, due to the lack of RNG and it being 1v1. In a shooter, killtimes are fast enough that you can kill a more skilled player sometimes just by spotting them first or coming in after they've been weakened. Not a thing in FG's4. When taking damage in a fighting game, you lose the ability to act. So if you're losing, you just have to sit there and wait, wheras other genres mostly allow you to still move, attack back etc while you're taking damage. 5. The PERCEPTION that fighting games are hard, regardless of how hard they are or are not, as >>747584945 kinda alludes to. Tied in with this is the idea that people think they need to learn combos when starting out (even tho they don't), and what >>747598472 says, even I get intimidated picking up new FGs, oftenYes, having a big single player mode or other modes/content like >>747588794 , >>747592654 >>747594996 >>747600824 >>747582198 etc says will help, having a large roster helps, customization helps, charging less like >>747593675 , >>747593805 etc says helps, I think having party modes that teach FG concepts will REALLY help, having simpler inputs may help, being tied to a major famous IP/franchise will really help etc, but...Ran out of space again
>>747609842You'd have to stupid to think they wanted it to be as popular as those two and not just at the as popular as bb at minimum which was achieved for the 1st time in the series' history. You'd have to be fucking retarded to think making it like plus r would would help with that.
>>747611582>>747610941very well made and thought out post, you don't see this kind of quality thread on /v/ very often with so many well constructed and lengthy posts i totally agree with you.
>>747611749I’m sorry but I think you’re the retarded one here. I’m saying they tried to change it to be mainstream and lgbt friendly at the cost of gameplay. But it’s not popular and it’s also got bad gameplay. So strive failed to make the worse gameplay worth it.
>>747611582Cont:... in terms of trying to get a broader audience to enjoy and understand the core mechanics and gameplay of a fighting game? I think those things are the main obstaclesWhat are the actual implications of that? Probably that if you're wanting to maximize the broader appeal of your core gameplay, you'd>Have relatively shorter movelists, OR have the inputs be relatively consistent across the cast (like smash) and relatively simple, like buttons plus directions>Have relatively shorter healthbars/rounds, but more rounds per match>Maybe do what Injustice does, and have health carry over between rounds?>Have relatively shorter combos, and/or more mechanics to break back to neutral or to do reversals, so even the losing player isn't caught in the corner for as long as they might otherwise be>Emphasize neutral in generalAlongside all the other things that I said might help or people think are the main issue, like lacking modes/content, minigames etc as tutorials, cheaper pricetags, larger rosters, customization unlocks, etc. But really, I think #5, that perception of difficulty, is the biggest obstacle, and the only way around that is to stumble into hyper-popularity to begin with via lightning in a bottle marketing/becoming a fad, or being tied to a big IP or company: Even if you do everything else right, the game might not be a big successI'm also not necessarily saying that doing all of this is guaranteed to be a "good" fighting game, especially if you go all in on all these ideas, but I think using them carefully in measured doses could be helpful: I think Divekick, Nidhogg's etc success with casuals in a sort of party game context does show that some of these ideas can work, even if those take it so far they aren't even really fighting games>>747585437Try Aztez>>747587447As the essay OP linked points out, Chess is popular.Ran out of space again
>>747568810>keeping this genre from fully trooning outAnon... it's one of the most trooned out genre out there... literally every second fighting game faggot is some form of tranny
>>747612125Nah if you want to see something fully doomed look at like deltarune or persona
>>747612097Cont:>>747567950>>747582679>>747595263>>747596290>>747596626>>747605961>>747606463You're all wrong, see above. MK's model doesn't actually hook a ton of people into the FGC, it just sells a lot of money to casuals who mostly never play the game past the end of the single player story modeAnd re: Motion inputs, while it is true that simply getting rid of motion inputs won't make the game a hit with casuals, removing motion inputs also doesn't inherently casualize the experience: The spacing and timing of the input still matters and can still be strict, the game can still have various resource management systems, fundamentals are still a thing, etc, and you can add more of or make those elements less forgiving in exchange for removing motion inputs so the game's overall skillgap remains the same. Pokken for example has no motion inputs yet Garchomp's BNBs are difficult enough to execute that most of his players have to hold their pads an entirely different way, Weavile's wallsplat loops are near impossible to do consistently online, etc. Removing motion inputs is only a detriment to the game if the devs are incompetent and don't handle it correctly. But doing it also isn't guaranteed to BENEFIT the game either: It's mostly a meme issue that doesn't matter much either way, but in tandem with addressing the other things I mention in my numbered list, removing them MIGHT help attract a larger playerbase? But it's only one small part of a broader strategy
Is this the fighting game general on /v/? the last one got purged. I will just ask here since there's no dedicated thread:I've been trying to play Arcana Heart 3 again (I played the shit out of the old 2015 version) and I don't know what it is but I'm seriously struggling with "getting it"Not mechanic wise but actually seeing whta I'm doing. Blocking as example is something I'm struggling brutally and when I dash to air my brain just goes "mush"it's really weird because I had none of these issues before back in 2015. Am I genuine getting too old for these games or did I perhaps have somekinda brain cancer that started developing? I can't even explain the exact issue I have.I should propably switch from this controller to my actual fight stick too
>>747612259Cont:>>747582905>>747582957>>747577509>>747583473Smash is successful in part because of the easier/more intuitive inputs (there's still a lot, but they're vaguely consistent across the whole cast which lets someone feel like they can use any character at least somewhat decently vs traditional fighting games where that's not the case; and are easy to remember due to that and being at most a button and a direction) yes, but it's also the fact that neutral is a lot more prevalent in Smash then other fighting games due to the lack of combos and multi-tier stage design and the greater emphasis on mobility, which gives casuals more of a chance to feel like they have agency over the match even when/if they're not landing hits or don't know advanced tech, combined with also the fact that it has a lot of characters/stages and (in the past) a lot of alternate modes which makes it feel like a good bang for your buck purchase, because it can be enjoyed in a party context by more then just a single pair pf players, and also, finally, because it's a crossover with huge popular franchisesAny one of those elements alone would not guarantee it to be a massive success, as >>747579068 alludes to, it's as big as it is because of all of those elements taken together>>747597450Generally speaking, throws/grabs will land even if the enemy is blocking, so that's their main advantage. As for why you'd use X vs Y vs Z punch or kick, they'll generally vary in their damage, what height they hit on (in most fighting games, low hits will bypass standing block, while overheads will bypass crouching block), what moves they can combo into or out of, their frame data (tl;dr it just means how fast a move comes out, and how long you're stuck in the animation after it ends, which by extension dictates how safe vs risky a move is to use), their range and how much space their hitbox covers, and how much meter or other resources they give youRan out of space again
>>747612384>>747597450>and how much meter or other resources they give you...Cont:So a jab that's got fast frame data, low damage, and can combo into a lot of things is a good combo starter, probably. A kick that's a bit slow to start up but hits low is probably good as a way to mix up the enemy while they're blocking standing up to try to bypass that. A move that's got a big hitbox extending in front of and above you is probably good as an anti-air to catch the enemy while they're jumping. A move that does a ton of damage and covers a wide range but takes forever to start up and leaves you vulnerable in the animation for ages is probably either something you want to combo into, or only to use as a risky option if you don't think the enemy will expect to it and react to it in time. Some moves are really only useful to get meter or other resources, other moves might only be useful as part of a combo to link one move into another move, etc>>747597958Games with well designed movelists will tell you how much damage they do, what their frame data is, their height, and other properties, and if they have a good training mode, that will also allow you to see their exact hitboxes. But some games don't tell/show the player these things, and I agree that, ideally, the movelists would also explicitly spell out "This is a good anti air", "this is great for building meter", "use this to close the distance with the enemy" etc. I assume most fighting games don't say those things because a lot of the time, the playerbase ends up using moves in a way that the devs didn't expect and it can be hard to predict what moves do or don't end up being useful and in what ways. But they should really still do it and just update that text as the meta develops over time>>747577731>>747604805forgot to quote these in >>747610941
>>747612259>>747612384>>747612468Inputs are FUN, retard.
>>747611872Let me just elaborate again in the simplest way. It being that middle ground is the exact reason why so many more people like it than plus r(normalfags and Japan like simple shit), there is more to popularity than just being Tekken or SF mainstream tier popular which is why it DID get popular and supported for as long as it did as seen with it's unheard of entrant and player numbers for GG for the first time, and the changes overall did completely work. Also no one but 90% secondary fags gave a fuck about bridget and testament in the 1st place so those two getting changed either gameplay wise, visually or what the two freaks are officially called had zero affect of the game negatively or positively when it came to popularity.
>>747612535On the contrary, it did not get “popular”, which is quite a stretch, by simplifying things and adding lgbtslop. In fact those things held it back. If it was actually good like plus r it’d be way more popular. No offense, but you seem a bit dumb.
Motion inputs>are fun and feel good to do>are part of the core of traditional fighting games>give the characters and their moves more identity>are a smart way to balance moves>lets characters have far more attacks than the buttons available
