>JRPG>Final boss is the Demiurge
>>747633612What the fuck is his problem?
>>747633612i still don't understand why sophia acted out of order and if the demiurge is the only thing in the kenoma
>>747633612If this Japanese Role Playing Gameworld I created is so imperfect, why do you continue to play with it?
>>747633612>literally only exists because some christcucks became mindbroken due to their just world fallacy falling apart
>>747633612
>>747633828>Bro god is like totally good that is why he is jealous, violent, greedy, prideful and murders millions of people constantly
>>747633612>A >FUCKING >SNAKE
<---------- filled with pleroma
You just made this thread. Take your Manichaean horseshit back to /x/
Can someone define gnosticism for a retard?
>>747633612>Superboss is literally Satan
>>747634119Basically the old testament god is actually fake evil god (possibly satan) who created the earth and humanity specifically as a torture toy. The new testament god is the real god who created everything else and is trying to help liberate humanity from the evil demiurge.
>>747633828Gnosticism predates Christianity though, by like a lot too.
>>747633828Your first problem is taking this at face value
>>747634330Gnosticism came about as a result of early christianity
>>747633612it's obviously a penis and the tail makes the balls
>>747634409Gnosticism is a continuation of Hermeticism, which predates Christianity, by a lot.
>nooo flying space penis, how could you do this to me, you are the reason I'm suffering. True wisdom is being female.Mhh...
>>747633612Persona 5
>>747634119Gnosticism is a broad term used in modern times to group together a general set of beliefs from antiquity/middle ages that can be related to Plato's Timaeus creation myth & later mythologies that were basically in opposition to the current kike/Christian beliefs, particularly trying to reconcile with OT god acting very different to NT god and just having alternative beliefs that would then be condemned as a heresy by Christians.Basically there's a Supreme God/Monad/The One in a realm outside the material realm (Plato/Aristotle), from it emenated dozens of aeons, one being Sophia and another the Demiurge, the latter created the material realm and is the jealous evil god of the OT. From here there's a bunch of supplemental/alternative stories, like alternative versions of the Garden of Eden and how we need to obtain Gnosis to return back to the realm of the Monad, without Gnosis we're doomed to reincarnate in this shitty material world.
>>747633612Art imitates life
>>747633759Because where there is light, there must be shadow.No, he's just the biggest boy.
>>747634659What is an aeon?Who is Sophia?What is Gnosis?
>>747634905Aspects of the MonadKnowledgeKnowledge
>>747633821>>747634676For the longest time I though Demiurge was a sunflower because this Sprudo was my only exposure to it before I learned it was supposed to be a snake/dragon with a lion's head
>>747634119
>>747634905Basically an angel.The feminine half of God.Knowledge.
>>747635075
>>747635037Sunflower is a New World crop, it didn't exist in the World of gnostics
>>747635123
>>747634659Gnosticism are two things.Either holding a contradicting belief within a certain religious system by claiming that the official scripture/teachings are deceiving.You can be an olympian gnostic by worshipping the titans instead.Or it's a form of ancient witchtok where they hodge podged the latest religious trends with hermetic, helenic and zoroastrian mysticism together to form muh secret club that totally has the answers nobody else will tell you, pls gib moneys, but if you do you will be real smarts, contrary to the other people who only will ever be fake smarts... word.
>>747634119people couldn't into monotheism so had to invent a bad guy, same old story
>>747635190The more things change, the more they stay the same
>>747635203That's like saying Christianity is polytheist because of Lucifer.
>>747633612>Demiurgepeople keep saying that word and i dont know what that word means
>>747635479yes.
>>747635510I respect it.
>>747635494The fake God that's pretending to be real God to stop us from getting to true God.
>>747633612Just like the real life.
>>747633828christians have been mindbroken ever since the council of nicaea where the homoousians took over, all because some egyptian bishop got really mad at arius insulting him
>>747635663>>747633612i thought jrpgs are about killing godshouldnt the demiurge be the second last boss then?
>>747635715Nah, this is more interesting and less evil.
>>747634119The most common creation telling:god (commonly referred to as The Monad) is an infinite being in a realm literally nothing else can visitit creates a layer below it to commune withit populates it with paired beings one of those pairs is Jesus and Sophia Sophia yearns to know what creation is likeshe breaks off from her pair to create what would be known as the demiurge demiurge is a retarded schizo with an ego, because sophia is a retard without the full understanding of creationdemiurge creates a layer below it that we humans inhabitour layer is evil and filled with suffering because demiurge is even less qualified to create than its mommydemiuge then creates 7 beings called the archons to guard our layer Monad says "Not my problem", but Jesus would eventually go attempt to bring Sophia back
>>747635715You never really kill capital G God. You kill fake gods trying to take his place as an immortal omniruler. Even in the "god killing jrpg" smt YHVH is still just a demon born from humans.
>>747635494The belief that the god of the old testament is an evil god that either created the universe out of evil or stupidity. The god of the old testament is refered to as the Demiurge and Christ is his enemy that sets you free from the evil material world. This was an extremely popular form of Christianity and was winning in converting people because it explains why old testament god is so evil compared to new testament god. The Church eventually genocided all people who held this belief. These people known as Gnostics had the plan to stop all human births in order to prevent any more souls from getting trapped in the material universe.My conspiracy theory is they have taken over the world governments and are why birth rates are falling.
i think he was the last boss in Shadow Hearts 1?
>>747635993>demiuge then creates 7 beings called the archons to guard our layerSo for us to be free we must kill these 7 archons.Based. Going to start grinding snails to level up.
Can someone explain to me why after 1500 years Gnostism is suddenly coming back?
>>747633612>Chinese Gacha>Your waifu is the Demiurge
>>747636367A new psy op because new age didnt work
gnosticism is like a midwit magnet. and I'm not talking about gnostics here.
>>747636367The topic itself has a lot of truth, but it also attracts a lot of grifters who try to sell you their truth.If a youtuber is doing face thumbnails talking about it, you can safely ignore them.
>>747635149What if it came to them in a dream?
>>747636367Nag Hammadi was discovered 80 years ago, and Internet spread the word
>Based on the super being>Probably one of the worst gods in its categoryI like that the lore is switched around so that the demiurge is in fact not the first god. It just didn't know about the pantokrator.
>JRPG>you befriend the demiurge>he gives you the blessing to marry his messiah daughters and kill his anti-christ son
>>747636563Forgot image
>>747636468>>747636367>Random muslim farmer digging for fertilizer finds the Nag Hammadi and the ancient text of the Gnostics>Now the world knows of the evils of the Demiurge
>>747636610How do Jews/Christians react when you tell them this is the god of the old testament?
>>747636367christianity evolved into secular liberalism a couple hundred years ago and adopted a materialist narrative and people have been thirsty for spirituality since
>>747636432It's a fun spin on an old story. Not like anyone takes Christianity seriously anymore.
>>747636707Extremely pissy, as seen several times in this thread.
Unironic Christians. Explain how these pro Gnostic arguments don't work.God is evil because he>Demanded sacrifice of living feeling things for his pleasure>Killed 99.999999% of humanity with a flood>Tried trapping Adam and Eve into ignorance forever in a garden>Christ and OT god act completely differentI genuinely am curious how they explain these.
>>747635075>>747635123>>747635179This is so gay and retarded
>>747636707jews worship an amalgamation of satan and an ancient semitic sky god https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal so they don't really care what goym dochristians hate gnosticism because jesus is no longer the protag, and god isn't knowable and distinctly separate. But also, gnosticism may have been a tedious retelling of ancient sumerian mythos which is where greek mythos also may have came from, so it's all pretty blurry
>>747636367society went full athiest and everyone saw how shit that went so now midwits are rushing to find any "cool" trendy religion to fill the void
>>747635715Japan doesn't really understand Christianity and thinks you can kill God so instead they opt for their understanding of what a god is and roll with that. You're not killing God, you're killing a being pretending to be God. Realistically if you even made an attempt to try to kill God you'd just instantly be turned into paste where you stood because you are God's creation and he's basically the admin of life. It's like saying a guest in Rollercoaster Tycoon can do anything to you playing the game outside of the PC when you can just click on the guy and erase his existence.To them it's a positive story about humanity taking control of its own destiny because they believe in humanity should be the arbiters of our own lives. They particularly don't really like the concept of pledging fealty to a being that passes judgement onto humanity based on its own demands which is why SMT focuses on this so heavily and it's so prevalent in Japanese and Chinese stories. Just do any Law playthrough of SMT and see how they basically treat siding with Heaven as the equivalent of a lobotomy because humanity pledges fealty to Heaven itself. On the opposite end they show that human-only neutral routes are filled with death and anarchy and the Chaos route never has any positives and is always that meme of guys in a chain stabbing each other in a back to get power or what they want.
>>747637085Japan thinks everything is a god
>>747633828>christcuck
>larp as the moon and start couple in Aura Kingdom>see vertical alignment of star and moon in my real life house when having my kundalini awekenning in my birthday>now anons harras me, wants me dead or jailedYep, it's gaming timehttps://youtu.be/ewjpMgzDGUE
>>747634119Gnostics are retarded
>>747637118In a way they're right. Humans were better off when we respected and feared nature. We are miserable trying to be our own gods.
>>747637043>Become Atheist as a teenager>Think destroying religion would set it all right>Realize I fucked up and I want humanity to go back>TFW can't "Will" myself into religion
>>747637085>It's like saying a guest in Rollercoaster Tycoon can do anything to you playing the game outside of the PC when you can just click on the guy and erase his existence.He can. If he crashes the game and causes the computer to explode he can kill you. That's us
>>747636949God is ontologically good so any act he commits is also good.God has the right to kill anyone he wants because life is a loan from God, you just have a revocable license basically
>>747637175See >>747636949
>>747636949>>Christ and OT god act completely different>I genuinely am curious how they explain these.They dont, normies just believe that theyre the same and thats that even if the ot and nt have little to no connection
>>747633701He’s Chris Chan with god powers.
>>747637218You can't build a moral system on a foundation of bullshit and expect it to stay up under scrutiny. We'll have to come up with a better system, this one's done.
>>747637289So, genocide is good?
>>747636949>God is allowed to kill anything He wants because He is the person who allowed life. Animals also don't have souls, though humans should still take care of them>The entire world was filled with evil murderers and rapists (except for Noah and his family)>He just told them not to eat the Fruit, it was a test>Jesus repeatedly tells people they're going to Hell if they act out of line, and He references the Old Testament a bunch of times
>>747637178I'll attract the fedora niggers by saying this, but since putting my faith in Jesus Christ I have been a lot happier and joyful. I have also been more conscientious and kinder of the creation that surrounds me and respecting it.
>>747637412>Asking this on the the "Hitler did nothing wrong" website
>>747637417>>God is allowed to kill anythingI mean if I was king I would be allowed to kill you. But that still doesn't work if you define the king as good. >It was a testAnd if they passed the test they would stay ignorant for all eternity
>>747636707Christian here, it's just heresy dude. That's on them defining things their own way. Christians don't believe in Gnosticism so why would it bother anyone? It's just heretics being heretics.>>747636949>Demanded sacrifice of living feeling things for his pleasureUntil The Fall happened this wasn't necessary. Humanity was given dominion over animals and animals are below humans even from the start as they cannot think or reason like humans. Once it happened it was used as a metaphorical example that a person was willing to give up a source of their food to ask God to forgive them. Isaac being sacrificed by Abraham was literally just a test for Abraham itself, he never wanted it to happen at all and immediately put a stop to it then caused a goat or lamb or whatever to appear nearby.>Killed 99.999999% of humanity with a floodDid you miss the part where 99.999999% of humanity at that point were genuinely murderers, trying to rape angels, trying to reach Heaven physically, ignoring any sort of morality, and refused to listen to God or people sent by God repeatedly to tell them to cut it out? Even then God is the definition of goodness in the world and any act he does by default is morally right. God literally created all of humanity so whatever he wants to do it's his prerogative because you only exist because he chose it to be so.>Tried trapping Adam and Eve into ignorance forever in a gardenIgnorance is not a negative in that context. You only perceive it as a negative because you have a different perception than they ever did. They literally had immutable lives and happiness but fell to temptation.>Christ and OT god act completely differentThey don't. The point of Christ is that God has come to Earth to give an example to humanity of humility and that if they don't change their ways by following him they will be cast aside. Christ regularly tells people they're damned, to be gone, lashes out at the money lenders, and condemns the wicked.
>>747637437Liking Christ is cool. Liking god is cringe and loser shit.
>>747637412You can genocide if God tells you to because God owns everyone’s lives but if you kill someone without permission you’re destroying His property
>>747637437That's nice, but outsourcing your moral framework and existence just makes you a philosophical zombie.You shouldn't need a subscription to tell you to be nice to animals and not litter.
>>747637412If approved/done by God then yeah
>>747637491>if I was king I would be allowed to kill you. But that still doesn't work if you define the king as good.You as a king didn't will me into existence or create everything I and everyone else have. Your life, existence, and everything you perceive as worth is just because God decided to will it into existence. By definition anything God does is morally good and you're using a human perspective of morality to judge God.>they would stay ignorant for all eternityand? Give me your logic here, why would ignorance be bad in a world where they don't need to know anything or do anything and exist to enjoy what God has given them?
>>747634119>>747636367Modern day "Gnostism" posting and Gnostic memes are just a shorthand for existentialism. This is because Nietzschian style "God is Dead" style atheism and nihilism actually pales in comparison to the suffering matrix we actually experience, so it's a nice step up.
I just think it’s interesting that gnosticism was formed in parallel with what became Christianity. The fact that they took the same source material and came to two completely different outcomes is interesting. Imagine if Valentines actually did become pope. How different would Christianity look today? We may have a global religion that believed god was bad.
>>747637526People are morally bankrupt when they don't have a standard to adhere to.
>>747637531>It's okay when he does itRight, I wonder why the Christian moral framework isn't resonating with the youth of today. Must be Dawkins fault.
>>747635075>>747635123>>747635179Any video games with this world building?
>>747637491A random king is not God. All of humanity is also a sinner against God, so He is perfectly justified in having us executed instead of dying for our sake.>They would stay ignorantHow would you know? Abraham didn't have to sacrifice Isaac despite passing his test. The serpent also presents the fruit as a way to become like God.
>>747637361Your moral framework is almost certainly iterative of christianities anyways anon
>>747637520>Liking Jesus is cool>Liking Jesus is cringe???
>>747637662Your standard doesn’t need to be divine. It can just be “I won’t harm others unless they harm me first”. It’s not complicated and most of society survived on this common sense position regardless of faith.
>>747637642>Criticize godlessness and nihilism.>Get called an atheist nihilist.
But what IS good?
>>747637680Christianity's moral framework was based on earlier frameworks which were in turn rooted in our biology, anon.
>>747637648Gnosticism of a mass scale ultimately turns into a murder suicide cult as the way to beat the demiurge is extinction
>>747637707Gnostics see the entities as separate. God is the guy that killed Job’s family and flooded the planet. Jesus is an aspect of the monad projected into reality to teach the truth. Jesus is cool all around. The god of the Bible fucking sucks.
>>747637750Anything that improves the lives of people.
>>747637789The issue with Gnostics is that they're retarded and haven't read the Bible, so they miss out on Jesus referring to Himself as the God of the Old Testament as well.
>>747637750Good is what increases the strength of the tribe, bad is what diminishes it.
>>747634290Why did the fake god create the true god or vice versa? Sounds retarded.
>>747637750anything that increases universal harmony
>>747637843Gnostics think the Bible was was made by the Demiurge, anon. Why would they follow its lies?
>>747637361I think Digital Gnosticism is inevitable. Everyone will want the power to create perfect new realities instead of being stuck to suffer in this one.Perfection only exists in our imagination and things we create with it.>>747637417>>747637504>99% of humanity was irredeemably evilEven all of the kids? Innocent blank slates who knew nothing and had potential to be good if they just had a teacher?
>>747637727Even the simplest of morals like helping each other, protecting your family, etc were instilled into us by a creator. This isn't unique to humans but all living creatures.
>>747637838>>747637870>>747637907What does it mean to "improve the lives of people"? Is it good to steal from smaller tribes to benefit your own, even if they did nothing to you?
>>747637504>Argument is "It's just wrong because it's wrong"The argument is it is evident that the old testament god is evil.
>>747637923before the flood it is said everyone was a prophet, everyone could hear god directlythey still did evils
>>747637916Damn, they're just like Muslims
>>747637876Because the feminine side of God decided to create on her own, but a half is imperfect so it accidentally created the material world. The material world needed a ruler, but that ruler couldn't see beyond the material world so it convinced itself it was God.
>>747637843Gnostics don’t consider the Bible as it is an accurate retelling of the events. Take the story of Abraham and Isaac. When Abraham descends the mountain, he descends alone. Why is that? The most likely scenario is because the original version of the story was actually one where the sacrifice of the first born child happened, which was common practice in the region. Historically, it wasn’t unheard of to sacrifice your first child to your god, because a family would have a lot of children and child mortality was high regardless. To give up your first born in exchange for plentiful harvests and healthier future children was seen as a sensible choice in those times. Clearly along the way, people decided “we can’t make this a child sacrifice religion” and changed that part.
>>747637504>Ignorance is not a negative in that context. You only perceive it as a negative because you have a different perception than they ever did. They literally had immutable lives and happiness but fell to temptation.Imagine thinking being hooked up to a metaphorical fent machine and made to be ignorant for all eternity is good.
>>747637603>Your life, existence, and everything you perceive as worth is just because God decided to will it into existence.Does this mean I can torture and kill my kids?
>>747637939>were instilled in us by a creatorDon’t make claims without proof. Circular reasoning is a waste of time.>>747637945You’re harming people in that example dumbass.
>>747637784Imagine how based that would be.>Gnosticism take over the church>All jews killed>Then mass suicide the day after>Aliens come to earth and wonder wtf happened
>>747638085But it increases universal harmony since it benefits the larger group. It's also purely for my own tribe.
>>747637945Yes.People will justify the things that are beneficial to their position and vilify things that are detrimental. Good and evil are rationalizations.
>>747637843The issue is the bible isn't some immutable record from God, it's an amalgamated collection of writings authored by humans with an agenda. Most notably the ones who sent C*nstantine to destroy what was left of rome and convene nicaea to "canonize" christianity (reign in all the schisms), which should be heresy in itself, but lmao
>>747638114Killing yourself is GAY and LAME
>>747637417>If you give something life you should be allowed to kill itDare I ask how you feel about abortion
>>747635075>>747635123>>747635179I'm currently reading Rose of the World, and re-reading this comic made me realize how much Gnostic inspiration it has.>There is only 1 true God>Every religion is technically correct because they are incomplete interpretations of the greater whole (which is the Rose of the World)>Science is also real and correct, but there is more to existence than empirical evidence>God is good, and all life and creation emanates from God, so it is also all supposed to be good. No death and predation, just transformation and cooperation.>But a long time ago, an angel we call Lucifer rebelled against God with a bunch of other lower angels and wanted to have his own creation>But he can't because he isn't God, so everything that he makes sucks and dies quickly>And everything he conquers also dies because God's love is not figurative, it is the glue holding everything together>Back when Earth was still a ball of molten rock, Gagtungr (one of the greater demon followers of Lucifer) tried to conquer the Solar system>He didn't succeed, but he wasn't driven out, either. Instead, Gagtungr established Hell as a fortress for him and his demons>Because of this, life in the Solar system evolved wrong. Instead of basically physical heaven, we got our shitass existence with laws of death, predation, and retribution.>The suffering of all living things emanates as gavvakh, which is what demons feed on, so they have vested interest in causing suffering
>>747637945Believe it or not you can actually work this all out if you think hard enough.Westerners have difficulty with moral thinking because pauls abolition of the law threw christian and thus western moral understanding into a chaotic mess of trying to consolidate some high absolutes with out a structured analytical legalistic framework. This has resulted in christianity stratifying out of secular life because it is in fact not compatible. You cant have a justice system if 'let he who is with out sin cast the first stone' for example. So christians, and then westerners in general, tend to always feel like some necessary evil and unfortunate compromise is occurring.Fear not however! There is an answer to this. How you interact with different peoples and different categories of 'other' can be worked out. In general being a jerk gets everyone to hate you, and so it is not good to simply go around stealing from other tribes like some kind of bandit.However, if it comes between your own survival, and survival of other people, it is good to prioritize your own survival all else being equal. The reason for this is that you should never act self destructively. Generally the only thing you should die instead of doing are things that diminish gods image and prestige, because that will turn people away from god and towards evil.
>>747638085It's called intelligent design, my guy.
>>747636949Can a gnostic fag explain why you tacked on all this gobbledygook lore shit, when the simpler explanation is that the OT and/or the NT stories were either made up, or altered by humans?
>>747637916>>747637843>BibleRetard. When Gnosticism was popular the central canon wasn't finalized yet>WOOOOOOOW WHY DIDN'T THEY READ THE TEXT IN THE EXACT WAY THE MODERN CHURCH AGREES YOU SHOULD READ IT?
>>747638185Women are not God, no matter what Gnostics think. They were given a specific role to raise and care for their children.
>>747635075>>747635123>>747635179absolute kino
>>747634119You got some answers about worldbuilding and God, but what's even more important is the knowledge. So the path to salvation is to seek knowledge, the way to escape exist and it's true.
>>747638240>Moves the goalpost
>>747636367ai thumbnail? I would never click.
>>747638067No because God also owns everything you create that includes your kids >You will own nothing and be happy
>>747637784No it's not. It's in the name dude, gnosticis think you can leave the material world and join with God through achieving ultimate knowledge.
PLAY XENOGEARS NOW
>>747638221More fun lore. Us Souls-Chads understand
>>747638226The Old Testament still existed, as did Jesus's teachings since the Gnosticism we're talking about formed ~200 AD. Jesus made a ton of references to the Old Testament.
Killing your baby at any stage of life is pure evil. The sins of the parent aren't the sins of the child.
>>747638240If God is perfect, it has to be neither and both.
>>747638269If you're wondering what I think about abortion, I think it's a murderous crime.
>>747638373>old testamentBut the part about Jesus saying he was the god of the old testament was from the new testament. You can read the old testament and 100% view it as the ramblings of an evil god even if you believe the events really happened.
>>747638221This was made up during early Christianity anon, not recently.
>>747638415Except when god kills his kids of course.
>>747638392Where does "Perfect" mean "Is not allowed to take a life justly"?
>>747638041As opposed to being taken off the fent machine and now death is actually a thing, you actually have to eat, drink, and excrete waste, pain is now a thing, all vices now exist as things people perceive, and more? You're using post-Fall context to justify this because you have hindsight whereas they had a perfect life with no issues at all and a guarantee of that. This isn't the equivalent to being unplugged from The Matrix, this is the equivalent of deciding you want to break your leg today.>>747638067You didn't create your kids. God did. God just lent their existence to you when you had sex so that you would hopefully raise them right and believe in him. Again, the concept of ownership seems to confuse you since everything that exists isn't owned by anyone but God.
A lot of people get confused with the continuity of the OT and NT. I recommend reading the NT first and then the OT. A lot of things become more clear, especially in Isaiah for example, that were referencing Jesus.
>>747638443Humans aren't God
>>747638216And you’re making an assumption that your version of mythology is real to justify why your mythology is necessary. It’s an argument that goes nowhere because it’s not based on anything concrete.
>>747638460I thought you meant God couldn't have a feminine side. Disregard. But hey, if God aborts children it must be a good thing.
>>747638374>The sins of the parent aren't the sins of the child.God disagrees since everyone is cursed over apple munching
>>747638535>it's okay when God does itGross.
>>747638552But I didn’t eat any apples
>>747638435I understand but my point is why subscribe to it? It just sounds like a really convoluted explanation for why two different books don't line up
>>747638583Yes? Do you not know what being "God" entails?
>>747637951But why? Everyone was just stupid? Maybe they had good reason to not follow authority if they knew the Demiurge was a spiteful cunt larping as the true God.
>>747637491>It was a test>And if they passed the test they would stay ignorant for all eternityThey did pass the test, anon.God created beings with free will. God knows future. God plant the fruit of Knowledge. We pass the test.That's Gnosticism
>>747638552women becoming sexually deviant, hence the serpent symbolism.and why greeks retell it with pandora opening her "box" and unleashing eternal curses upon humanity
>>747638585Yes that's the point, you are a sinner because your ancestor did.
>>747638552To be fair, that entire story is just a metaphor for growing up.>innocently playing around in a paradise (childhood)>discover the forbidden fruit and feel ashamed about being naked (puberty)>get thrown out into the real world full of hard work and suffering (adulthood)
>>747637779what was islam and judaism rooted in?
Gnosticism is just the obscure "religion" people talk about to feel smarter than others, even if it's really stupid if you actually start reading things.
>>747638629An evil hypocrite apparently.
>Modern Christianity’s answer for God doing bad things is to say God is incapable of doing bad things>Making Jesus “life free of sin” entirely meaningless because God by definition can’t sinEbin apologetics
>>747638671>IslamA weird version of Christianity mixed with Arabic culture that was created by an illiterate man who heard stories about both>JudaismFrom the old Hebrews that later became Christian
Gnosticism is the culmination of the morality of the men of ressentiment that Nietzsche fought against.
>>747638703the problem is you're reading translations of translations of translations.Muslims only have to deal with old vs new arabic and they still squabble over interpretations.
>>747637417>>Jesus repeatedly tells people they're going to Hell if they act out of line, and He references the Old Testament a bunch of timesJESUS DIDNT SAY THIS ONLY NIGGERS FROM SOMALIA SAID THIS….HELL IS NOT A THING JESUS MENTIONS ATHENA - YHVH
>>747638609I don't subscribe to it, it's just interesting.It's not that convoluted though, it's just:>what if OT God is evil because he's not the real God but an in-between keeping us down
>>747638636Where does Satan fit into this?
>>747638539Well yeah, duh, lol. I'm obviously biased so if you aren't coming to the table with an open heart then all discussion is fruitless (the Bible warns about this btw). 2 Timothy 2:16 says, "But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness". 2 Timothy 2:23 says, "Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels".>>747638552You're conflating generational curses with accountability. I won't be tried at Judgement because my ancestor kicked a puppy.
>god is perfect and all-knowing>therefore god knew the beings he created would eat the apple>sperg out and punish them and their children that did nothing wrong over this thing that is the known outcome of his own actionsgod sounds mentally ill
>>747638732>Jesus's whole thing is that He's a perfectly innocent person>Him being perfectly innocent somehow goes against thisWhat did anon mean by this
>>747638661If it's all a metaphor why should anyone care about the religion, everything in its dogma is a fantasy.
>>747633701you try making a better world then if youre so smart
>>747638652>greeks retell it with pandora opening her "box"Other way around. Christians stole the idea from the Greeks hundreds of years later.
>>747638781I’m saying that you’re better off arguing against a Hindi or something because you’re both functioning at the same level or interpreting reality.
>>747638780>I need to create a bad guy from a jealous angel so my free willed creations would willingly choose to worship me, >or else.But that's not a gnostic way
>>747638768Hell is referenced in the parable of the rich man and the beggar, he describes it as a place of burning torment from which there’s no crossing over between heaven and hell ever
>>747638780either Satan is the serpent and therefore the good guy or Satan is the (OT) God and evil
You ever see your dad naked and your ancestors become the Canaanites? Oops.
>>747638862yeah, i meant retelling the idea in a different way. Greeks inherited a lot of their stuff from the Sumerians anyway
>>747638671Several old middle eastern religions.In the end, it all comes down to this:Ten apes kill a deer together, but one of them gets a smaller portion than the others even though he contributed the same. He gets pissed because this is injustice, thus morality was born.Even today we see this sense of justice in monkeys and apes, it's a byproduct of a cooperative group species.
>>747638851People loved Jesus because he was like the opposite of God. Humble, forgiving, and merciful.
>>747638652greek myth came first and also it wasn't pandora's fault she was given the box with all that shit by the gods
>>747638805>pretend to be offended so your plan could continue>give them free will, they would worship you for eternity to come back
>>747638869Clearly, so this level of discussion is a waste of time for everyone involved. Hence this age old debate. It's fundamentally incompatible much like a debate on morals since you can even have a PhD and still be morally bankrupt.
>>747633701he actually doesn't have one, you've been lied to ;)
>>747638780Right between god sanctioning samael to shit-test humanity into sinning so he can punish them, and also letting his "watchers" breed with humans.
A lot of you retards should actually study theology at some point. I'm pretty sure this entire thread has already been argued a thousand times in the past.
>>747638853Correct, they're just stories told by campfires to pass on wisdom, now written down and given a meta-narrative.
After playing Dawnwalker, and seeing it tiptoe around any judeo-christian mythology despite the setting has given me a massive respect for japanese devs unabashedly using said mythology. You'd think the secular west would try to use abrahamic myths in the same way they would greek mythos, but they just side step it completely.
>>747633612Is there are Gnostic games? Other than Noita
>>747639083genshin impact, black desert online theirs a few of them.
>>747639083Legacy of Kain Soul Reaver
>>747634290The last existing Gnostics don't even have the new testament. It's not tied to Christianity.
>>747639083AQW's MC is the Demiurge (kind of)
>>747639065Much more interesting having a discussion with other people than reading a bunch of dry and confusing texts. Most of them can be summed up in a few paragraphs.
>>747638671judaism was a kind of standard deal, but the babylonian exile caused something unique to happen when instead of making them assimilate (as literally always happens because gods are universally considered local deities in this era of history and if you move you 'convert' because its all the same religion of appeasing the local gods) they got to hang out in their own refugee city and theologically evolved the god of the region into a universal god with a heavenly temple so they could follow the religion away from jerusalem (as described in ezekiel). This inexplicable event i consider to be a miracle and evidence of yahweh.
>>747639065In a thousand years, we'll stillbe having the same arguments.
>>747637750Existence; I'm not a Thomist, but "ens et bonum convertuntur" is 100% correct.Existence is value, because non-existence is the absence thereof. Just don't use "goodness" in the moral or emotionalist registers. Outside of that, what you personally deem as "value" is flexible within the confines of existence, you can't value nothing qua nothing though.>>747638552That's called "Original Sin", it was posited by the Latin west; the other model is "Ancestral Sin", in that framing we inherit no guilt, but we do inherit mortality and the fear of death.
>>747637707God is a lot cooler when he's coming down to Earth and cleansing us of all our sin and not when he's just chilling in Heaven keeping tabs on his gaggle of retards.
>>747639083There's allusions to it in many fantasy games.
>>747639073I mean it's not tip-toeing around it at all, the vampire guy took over a valley and made people worship a warped version of Christianity where vampires are agents of God who heal people with their blood. Vampires and witches get their power from some fucked up evil hell dimension/entity that you can easily read as hell/Satan.
>>747639197No we won't. Christianity is at its end, in a couple hundred years, it'll be a curiosity.
>it's actually okay if god fucks my wife and kills me and my kids for fun, i'm a property :)christtrannies NEVER beating cuck allegations
>>747633612>>747633821we are livingin a material worldand i am a material girl
>>747639262IIRC, the decline in Christianity plateaued while atheism is declining. Islam is rapidly growing, though.
I have to work and pay taxes because of the Demiurge, so fuck him.
>>747639262You said that 200 years ago.
>>747639319Atheism is probably only “declining” because saying you’re “Agnostic” is the hip thing (there is no functional difference but it makes religious people less upset)
>>747639205Non-existence is the absence of problems. Nobody on Mars mourns not getting to ride on ferris wheels.
>>747639205So an existence of joy and an existence of suffering are equally good?
>>747639218I mean the myths that is usually part of the vampire stories. You're thinking of the allegory. Not at all what I'm talking about.
>>747639262secular liberalism is christianity. The way westerners even think about morality is distinctly christian and so is their inability to grasp that other people are entirely different. Universalism is really horrible.>>747639319via birth rate. there are more islamic converts to christianity than westerners becoming muslims. Islam is not doing very well, the internet is really bad for it and its being propped up by a salafist fanatical vigor.
>>747639319Not any stats I've seen. Islam is growing purely due to population growth. It's also weakening from the inside, because admitting you don't believe in Islamic countries means either the death sentence or ostracization. At some point that bubble is going to burst.
>>747639293Literal slave mentality.
>>747639293Transsexuals are a by-product of secular beliefs, as are "open relationships". God mandated that man and woman become one flesh.
>>747639382Shit, you got me. I'm actually an immortal vampire.Christianity has greatly declined in the last 200 years, they were right, just not about the exact time frame. It's going down hard in western Europe.
>>747636949>St. Augustine defines evil not as a created substance, but as privatio boni (the privation or corruption of good). He argues that since God created all things and is perfectly good, evil has no independent existence; it is merely the absence of good, akin to a shadow being the absence of light or a hole being the absence of matter.The source of moral evil is the free will of rational creatures, who choose to turn away from the highest good (God) toward lesser, mutable goods.this question was answered over 1500 years ago nigga
>>747638631>But why? Everyone was just stupid?mentally ill more like? dunno. seems pretty clear a hard reset was the only way to proceedGenesis 6:5>And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
>>747639414Atheism is a hard "God doesn't exist", while Agnosticism is just "I don't know if God exists or not"
>>747639447>the internet is really bad for it and its being propped up by a salafist fanatical vigor.Internet is bad for all religions. Science disproved God.>>747639449>admitting you don't believe in Islamic countries means either the death sentence or ostracization. At some point that bubble is going to burst.So the same thing Christianity already went through.
>>747639262It will just change to integrate A.I. and virtual reality.
>>747639505>It's going down hard in western Europe.That's due to demographics. Not really something to celebrate unless you're part of the biomass.
>>747639447>the way westerners even think about morality is distinctly christianBullshit. All of Christianity's moral rules are found in non-Christian civilizations.
>>747639507wise, very wise
>>747639424>Non-existence is the absence of problemsIt's also the absence of being able to value the absence of problems.>>747639430>So an existence of joy and an existence of suffering are equally good?I won't speak on joy personally, but suffering is typically the structural and existential breakdown of a creature, that is, the trajectory towards death and non-existence.
>>747639546wasn;t agnostic supposed to mean that you believe it's impossible to know whether there is a god or not
>>747639548>This anon actually believes science is opposed to Christianity
>>747639548>So the same thing Christianity already went through.Pretty much, they're lagging behind.
>>747639546If I ask you “do you believe in God” I’m not asking you “does God exist”, the answer is Yes I believe or No I don’t believe
>>747639262You said this 2000 years ago.
>>747639507>Imperfection spawns from Perfection because uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhIt just makes so much more sense if you stop with the Immaculate God delusion.
>>747639535Seems pointless in hindsight because humanity is still like this.
thought i was on /x/ for a moment. anyway im glad i went crazy while i knew about shit like this, imagine if you lost it and your only frame of reference was normie life?
>>747639564Nah. Christianity has fallen from 90% to 25% in my country over the span of 100 years or so. Non-western immigrants are sub 20% of the country.
>>747639590It can go either way>>747639623A lot of people would still go "I don't know".
>>747639548>Science disproved God.in what way?
>>747639653>Literally explains how in the passage
>>747639590Yeah basically a cop out because thinking about it is too hard for them.
>>747639704You don’t know your own opinion? If the answer isn’t Yes it’s No it’s not hard
>>747639546That's the midwit understanding.Agnosticism just means not knowing.An agnostic atheist doesn't believe in God but can't be sure.A gnostic atheist is sure there's no God.An agnostic theist believes in God but can't be sure.A gnostic theist is sure there's a God.Theism/atheism is a question of belief. Gnosticism/agnosticism is a question of knowledge.
>>747639757>Perfectly Good just accidentally left open some empty space for Imperfection to breed like mold haha:/
>>747639819Yeah, a lot of people simply haven't thought about it enough to give an answer they're fully happy with.
>>747633612>soulslike>the philosopher's stone is referencedLooking at you Mortal Shell.
>>747639706The world wasn't created in 7 days, man wasn't made of dirt, woman wasn't made of man's rib, there was never a 40 day long worldwide flood, etc.There might still be a God, but not in the way Christianity (or any other religion) portraits him.
>>747639831Are you illiterate? It literally says right there that evil is allowed since it's necessary for the good of free will.
threads like these are why i still monitor this board from 4stats
>>747637168>surely i will get into heaven by being racist on the internet in my free time
>>747639919Hmmm wait a minute though if Free Will is good, and Free Will is the ability to disobey God’s Will, doesn’t that mean Free Will is an element of Good that God does not possess, and therefore he is not all-Good?
>>747639912dunning kruger: the post
>>747639919>Perfectly Good actually needs Imperfection so its Perfectly Imperfect beings can act Imperfectly This is the most surface-level ploy of evil, like it's embarrassing that humans with supposed Perfect Free Will actually fall for this utter scam
>>747639912You know Christians don't believe Genesis is 100% literal, right? It's been that way since at least 200 AD.Stuff like the Big Bang or the Scientific Method also come from a Christian mindset
>>747639919Do I have the free will to piss all over God's grand design?
>>747640025>light casts a shadow? pffft... what a scamare you retarded? lmao
>>747639571The way christianity and therefore the west in general think about morality is very unique to christianity because it is the byproduct of pauls abolition of the law and how we have to therefore think about morality in the absence of that kind of law which every other religion is based on.Most religions are more like confucianism when it comes to how they think about morality. Christians play it fast and loose and this is why western morality is in perpetual conflict with actual western existence. its why christianity had to come to associate 'the world' with evil itself. The moral aspirations of christianity are unworkable in reality. Unfortunately this disposition towards morality is simply how westerners think now so even some random liberal upset over pronouns or war somewhere are thinking in these absolutes with out any rational compromises given into their ethical system. This is why they contradict themselves all the time and why nobody seems to have a consistent worldview where they can justify why they think what they think. We in the west just go on feels and vibes and then try to rationalize an explanation afterwards.Our disposition to good and evil is 'ill know it when i see it'. That is christianity.You also should not mistake other cultures necessarily coming to the same rules which are required to make civilization functional as them having the same moral justifications for those things. Other cultures are alien under the hood.
>>747639919holy copeso some "good"s require evil to exist now why is it good then exactly?
>>747640075What are those things in caves humans are supposed to break away from again?
>>747639997Shit, you got me anon. That argument is too strong.>>747640036There's a lot of fundamentalists out there anon, go ask them. You still believe in resurrections and miracles though, right?
>>747639996>>747640025>>747640101Free Will is the ability to choose whether or not you want to be with God. This is, like, Morality 101.>>747640042Yes, obviously. It's an evil thing to do, but you have the ability to do so.
Threads like this make me glad I'm a Christian
>>747640103and also, what's a popular nickname of the devil? The Light Bringer?
>>747639919Why couldn't God with his infinite power just make it so every choice we had was good?
>>747635993>woman moment in the loreLOL
>>747640036OK so if they won't clarify what is actually meant to be literal why care about it at all? If "God" can now mean stuff like "the idea that the rules of physics exist" then sure God exists but the word doesn't mean anything anymore and there's no reason to pick one religion over another if you absolutely need one.
>been playing this gacha game for 3 years>Absolutely convinced that the final boss of the game will be the demiurge>Everytime I tell people they call me a retarded schizoWhat do I do?
>ctrl+f love>2 hitsYa'll missed the point by a fucking light-year. Sasuga /v/iggers.
>>747637417>He just told them not to eat the Fruit, it was a testhow can he test them if they're literally not capable of comprehending why it's bad?
>>747640134>Free Will is the ability to choose whether or not you want to be with God.But God knows what everyone will choose because he is perfect and all knowing meaning it's not really free will you just falsely think it is. And if God doesn't know then God isn't perfect and there's no reason you should have to listen to and obey him any more than a human being.
>>747640248let them live in ignorance, wouldnt you if you could?
>>747640262explain
>>747640091You really think the rest of the world is just a bunch of NPC's who all agree with each other and never change their views?Lets take murder as an example. All civilizations on earth think murder is bad, because civilizations that think murder is good aren't civilizations for long. It's survivorship bias.
>>747633828Jesus was a Platonist.
the discovery of yahweh and his asherah should have buried christianity, but theists don't have functioning brains
>>747640114Fundamentalists are retarded, we can agree on that.>You still believe in the Resurrection and miracles though, right?Yeah, obviously. The Resurrection is the core miracle of this entire religion. I'm sure you've heard of Eucharistic miracles that the Church has atheist scientists verify, right?>>747640210"Non-literal" =/= "God is a metaphor for not-God things". God did still create everything, but it wasn't exactly like what happened in Genesis.
>>747639919Can humans choose between opposites? (God and not God?)If we can, how do you justify the coherence of aiming at literally nothing? How does a contingent, mutable creature motion towards nothing devoid of any good?
>>747634489hermeticism is an invention by larpers from the renaissance
>>747635075>>747635123>>747635179I've never heard of those concepts before. That's cool as hell. Feels exotic like asian religion and customs.
>>747640114>The world wasn't created in 7 dayswhat is apparent age>man wasn't made of dirt of the ground, not dirt, just like every other living being. lines up with what we know about the construct blocks of living things>woman wasn't made of man's ribgenetics>there was never a 40 day long worldwide floodwhat is worldwide flood myth all around the world and the origin of the cambrian explosion
>>747640134>Yes, obviously. It's an evil thing to do, but you have the ability to do so.So his grand design can be affected by me?
>>747634119The Matrix movie, but real.
video games?
>>747640324>God did still create everything, butOK how do you define God here? Which specific aspects of him are real and not lies or metaphors or whatever?
>>747639571Read genealogy of morals
>>747640376We are in a video game and that is being discussed
>>747640324Yeah, but we all know a dead body can't resurrect.>I'm sure you've heard of Eucharistic miracles that the Church has atheist scientists verify, right?No, and x to doubt.
>>747640134>Free Will is the ability to choose whether or not you want to be with GodSo God does not have Free Will since he can’t choose to not be with himself?
>>747640376we're discussing this shitty videogame that doesn't let you save and whose author may be an asshole or a plagiarist
>>747640376so much better than goonbait thread #312515, twitter screencap #1362347, culture war #2136123 or flamewar # 2162626
>>747640262Imagination is the most divine power. Then reason. Love comes in 3rd place.
>>747640186Free will requires the ability to choose the bad (i.e. going against God). It's logically impossible to have both "Free Will" and "Can only choose the Good">>747640326>How do you justify the coherence of aiming at literally nothingSome people are simply stupid
>>747640363you are allowed to exercise your gift of free will yeah. not without consequence though
>>747639447Birht rates are all that matter. If child rape religion creates more kids than it wins
Lotta pseudointellectuals on 4chan can't ever stop bringing it up as if they're in a secret club though.It's like they're too proud for regular /x/ talking points but they act like typical overexcited evangelical protestants.
>>747634119the world is fake and the guy that made it isn't the real god, eating the apple = knowledge = good
>>747640454God would logically only choose to do good because he see the end point of all corruption which is self harm>t. nta
>>747640358>what is apparent ageWhat?>of the ground, not dirt, just like every other living being. lines up with what we know about the construct blocks of living thingsNo, we're not made of ground or clay either.>geneticsWoman wasn't made of male genetics either. We evolved from asexual beings over time.>what is worldwide flood myth all around the world and the origin of the cambrian explosionRationalization.
>>747639501There is a nigga itt saying it's good when god kills people because he is god so its ok
>>747640437Look them up. I'd also bring up the Shroud of Turin, but you'd probably believe the (faulty) studies calling it a recent forgery (but still can't explain how it was made).
>>747640308Jesus didn't believe in a World of Perfect Forms we draw all of our ideas from thoughbeit.
>>747638585How would you feel if you had an apple for breakfast this morning?
>>747640405>read book by philosopher who based his views on what was known in his time
>>747639293the demiurge created our reality here, and it was god who fucked your wife yes.
>>747640578God is literally the ultimate authority on things. That's the whole point of God.
>>747640339Gnosticism is basically Western Buddhism.
>>747640556But the definition of “Good” provided itt is “anything God does or is in accordance with God’s Will is Good”. If God does not have Free Will (because everything he does is in accordance with himself and therefore Good) then Free Will can only be an evil thing, not a gift
>>747639507That doesn't explain why a good god does bad things
>>747640552Kek this. It's like watching a bunch of monkeys throwing shit at each other in a cage.
I get that evil has to exist but can't it be simple shit like stubbing your toedo we really need all this grim shit in the world
>meta-posters afraid of losing an argument and having their crystal ego shatter into a million pieces
>>747640494Not the point anon. Either I have free will or there's a grand design, both can't be true.
>>747640486So if I offer you two of your favorite videogames and tell you to choose one to play, you no longer have free will because there is no ability to choose something bad?
>>747640404God is the fundamental being necessary for anything to exist. He is necessarily>Omnipotent>Omnipresent>Omniscient>Non-contingent>Perfectly logical>Perfectly moralFrom Him, everything was created. That's the classic definition of God, at least.
>>747640274you are thinking about non linearity from a linear perspective>>747640306>You really think the rest of the world is just a bunch of NPC's who all agree with each other and never change their views?Nothing i said implies that>Lets take murder as an example. All civilizations on earthPretty sure my final couple of sentences specifically addresses thisMorality isnt the conclusions you draw, its the system of thought your conclusions run through consisting of rationality that is internally consistent and can be applied to your entire worldview with out fail.Take cheating for example. In china its good, even admirable to cheat if you dont get caught. The reason is that cheating undermines the rules and the rules are what hold society together. It is only because an exposed cheater is an attack on the structure of the rules that it is bad, and if someone can figure out how to cheat and not get caught they are in fact very clever and to be praised.In the west we also do not like cheating. So what do we do? Well, cheating must just be fundamentally bad somehow on a cosmic level. There you go, christian/western morality. Total anarchy and feelings. Then we struggle to apply these obtuse sweeping constants to other things because they are all reactive knee jerks.>>747640518they are important but the rate of apostasy is really going up. The muslim brotherhood called it actually, islam can not survive so long as the west survives, we are simply too corrupting to their 100% law based religion with our freedoms. They were right all along, they just 'hate our freedoms'. They blame the fall of the ottoman empire on the wests corrupting influence.
>muh free willGod knows everything you will ever do or else he isn't God. Therefore there is no free will just the illusion of it. God making beings that he already knows will use their free will wrongly is just sadism.
>>747640603The shroud of Turin is definitely not real anon. If that's your evidence, I'm bored.
A bunch of Calvinists in this thread right now
early christianity used to teach reincarnation. today, we're reading the bible charlemagne formed himself with the help of roman jews and then they released it and made christianity OK again in roma all of a sudden after being banned for 300 yearsmary and the disciples escaped to mary's uncle's tin mines in cornwall. he (joseph of arimathea) is in the bible for taking care of jesus' funeral and also has a wiki page.around 32 AD, they formed the first church in glastonbury. upon hearing the disciples had escaped, roman jews launched a massive campaign against the british isles. the dates line upjoseph of arimathea was jesus' uncle and a tin baron who supplied around 15% of the world with tin. when jesus was six, he took him to tue university of the magi where jesus impressed them and began learning with them, then started teaching as well and cointinuing to learn. there are four major schools and it takes a man his entire life to learn everything from those four schools, but jesus did it in 2-3 years. they say you gain the ability to raise the dead.they were red-haired arimatheans from the british isles who settled in galilee. mary and other girls her age had their star charts read and were chosen as candidates to bring christ into the material world again
>>747633612WHEN NO ONE ELSE CAN UNDERSTAND MEWHEN EVERYTHIG I DO IS WRONG
>>747637670Xeno(gears, saga and blade)
>>747640646Why are you worshiping an evil God?
>>747640552I live to spread truth.
>>747640775There's good evidence it's legit, but you clearly haven't looked into it.
Xeno games are shit and Takahashi is a hack
>>747640725>both can't be truewhy? define grand design. predestination?
I hate video games desu
>>747640552It's just a fun spin on Christianity, anon. Barely anyone actually believes it.
>>747640824What makes God evil? Your opinion?
>>747640786teach me more of this estoteric knowledge, or at least point me in the right direction
>>747640646>it's okay because he has power over meSlave.
>>747640761God exists outside of the universe, from his perspective we are choosing every choice we will ever choose simultaneously. Thus he simultaneously knows everything we will 'ever' do with out his knowledge of it implying there is any issue.This is just one possible explanation. The point is people who presuppose the primacy of nature when thinking about god are sort of missing the point
>>747640737That means exactly nothing in practice and doesn't apply to any god in any religious text ever.
>>747640786based
>>747636367Christians killed the Catholic God so they need something to fill the void. It's like how Chinese and Japanese folk have their own ancient animistic religions that complement their otherwise atheist worldview. Gnosticism satisfied the need for spiritual meaning in a way that's more consistent with the modern rationalistic mentality of the Western world.
>>747640904"Authority" includes moral authority, anon. You are also subject to secular law.
>>747640853grand design = god knows the entire finite set of chains in his created existence free will = the possibility for humans to ascend and break out of the chain
>>747640721You don't get it, bro. There would be no free will if we didn't have little girls getting trafficked and blown up by missiles.
>>747640761Every interpretation of God is a misinterpretation.
>>747640916So there are multiple universes some of which have Eve not eating the apple and the God of that universe acting differently meaning this God isn't the real God just a limited version of the idea of a god? Because again if he knows they eat the apple in every single universe then there is no free will, if he doesn't there are multiple different Gods.
>>747640842... is what I would say if I was a pseudo intellectual retard with shit tastes!
>>747640881Other way around, which is the sad part, ancient christians were really good at psy-ops
>>747640916Nta but if God knows every choice you’ll ever make at the moment he creates you that means you’re just playing out the script
>>747640761Believing in predestination is cringe defeatism.
we are the children of the demiurge and were rejected by god.
>>747640739Most societies on earth think cheating is bad. China is an exception. I don't particularly care the rationalizations that led to something being considered good or bad in a civilization, I care about the outcome. The outcome of most civilizations is murder bad, cheating bad, stealing bad, etc.Pretty much everything the Christians deem bad was already part of the Roman civilization that came before it.
It’s not God that I don’t accept, Alyosha, only I most respectfully return him the ticket
>>747640895Murdering Children with bears
>>747640925That's literally the Christian God. Even besides that, it's just saying that existence needs some fundamental, non-contingent thing that it was created by. Due to a bunch of logical arguments, this fundamental existence has the qualities I described.
>>747640853Basically, yes. He's all knowing, he already knows how it's all gonna go and hasn't changed things to go differently.
>>747641081t. Ikuhara
>>747641081Those teens deserved it for threatening to kill a prophet.
>>747641009God is the multiuniversal anchor. If there is an Eve in an infinite universes, then there are infinite creations, but only one creator throughout all.
>>747641045If God exists and is all knowing then predestination is real you just don't know what your destiny is. If predestination isn't real then God isn't all knowing and therefore not God.
>>747640983>grand design = god knows the entire finite set of chains in his created existencefree will does not contradict that>free will = the possibility for humans to ascend and break out of the chain...what? in what way does the possibility to make bad/evil decisions allow humans to "break out of the chain"? the setrenghten the chains to one's vices if anything
>>747641045>this is the logical conclusion derived from my beliefs but I’ll just ignore it because that’s cringeThis is not the first time I’ve heard this lol
>>747641059humans don't respect most lesser beings, so we can't expect a higher being to care about us desuit's called the Golden Rule for a reason.
>>747640895Genocide, torture, petty behavior, allowing all kinds of evil to exist, not writing any rules on slavery, etc.
>>747634119>be retarded>see that dad who goes to church isnt magically changed into the nicest guy on earth>see evil in the world>refuse to read Bible>some stoner who read parts of the Bible and refuses to go to church comes up with a gay headcanon that is incompatible with even plain readings of scripture and hides behind late fraud texts like The Gospel of the Ice Cream Store Clerk who hung out with Jesus on Wednesday Afternoons >the ice cream store clerks gospel reads thusly: yeah all that stuff that other people said I said is totally made up, you just need to think real hard and do a bunch of pseudobuddhist shit and smoke a ton of weed. Also Jesus had a sick tattoo of Bowser on a surfboard. -dated 4th century and written in Chinese.
>>747641045>predestinationMost Christians did believe this. Only we don't know because we think it is too depressing.
>>747641134They just called him bald
>>747641149The ultimate freedom is the choice to decouple from your creator.If humans don't have that on every level, they don't have free will.
>>747641137If some Eves don't eat the apple the God in those universe doesn't lose his shit and curse everyone so he is not the same God as ours.
>>747641009You're a dense retard who can't even try to think past the 3rd dimension. No different than a stickman on a piece of paper.
>>747641157our father loves us, god is a prick fuck that guy.
>>747641108>he already knows how it's all gonna gothat's not predestination>hasn't changed things to go differentlythat would invalidate the gift of free will
>>747641167Retard. Gnostism was a mainstream part of Christian belief even as far back as 100 AD. It is no more illogical than the current canon.
>>747641160>Canaanites had it coming>Are you talking about Job?>What petty behavior?>Humans are evil, but we're allowed to exist because God wants us>The Bible had rules about how you should treat your slaves like people, and moral abolitionists based their arguments on Christianity
There was only one Christian and he died on the cross.
i'm not 100% on this, but when you pray, you might have to mention something in the lines of>i pray you to only jesus/jesus christ/christ for you are our connection to god the fatherand uh what i like to add on is>where you came from to this earth and apparently where our souls come from and i am grateful for the wisdom and knowledge you've laid upon us and i really think we should should have fought and taken you back
>>747641167>>refuse to read BibleExplain how you would read the bible before it even existed? Reminder, what we know as the bible was a bunch of old guys deciding what was and wasn't canon arbitrarily a few hundred years after the events
>>747641194>decouple from your creatorthe whole concept of going to hell is exactly that though? you're out of your depth
>>747641215If there are infinite versions of God that are all slightly different then why should I call him God and care about what he wants? If God is just the idea of things existing why do I need to worship that, I can just say sure physics is cool and leave it at that.
>>747641194>The chose to decouple from your creatorYou mean Hell?
>>747640896Start with Plato (Timaeus, Phaedo, allegory of the cave) then move on to the Gnostic gospels like Thomas, Mary, and Judas.
Did you guys know that the original Hebrew writings say that Satan is plural and what we attribute to "Satan" is actually something called Mastema and that he made a deal with God so that 10% of them would be saved during the flood so that they could continue to torment humans? Sounds like a really nice God. Jews still teach this shit and Christianity if just the goy version of their writings. Gnosticism just makes sense.
>>747641243>mainstreamIt really wasn't
>>747641305>>747641318>getting sent to really hot time-out by your creator is decoupling from himlol, this is the issue. Your idea of decoupling is still within his realm.
>>747641228Right, so if I program a robot to do X, and it does X, it has free will but just choose X?
>>747641339It was. Besides Catholism it was the most popular form of Christianity up until Protestantism
>>747640761>God knows everything you will ever do or else he isn't God.Says who? You? And who the fuck are you to limit what God is allowed to be?
>>747641256nta but please explain why he killed Moses because of what other people did
>>747641280>arbitrarilyChrist founded a Church on the rock that is Peter, and gave Peter the power to bind and loose on heaven and earth, Christ gave provision that the Church would be able to collect and canonize the texts
>>747641023The top echelons of the Catholic church clearly believe something completely different from the plebs that's probably more esoteric and gnostic than they let people know.
>>747641401Moses ended up in Heaven anyway
>>747641028This wouldn't be bad thing except we're not allowed to see our script. So we're acting like a bunch of lost actors on stage without any direction.
>>747641412And the text they decided was and wasn't canon was based on popularity, personal opinion and political convenience.
>>747641419They're satanists anon.Serpents are satanist idols.
>>747641009>So there are multiple universesunknowngod existing outside of the universe does not imply a multiverseGod is "the first cause", that is the most fundamental idea about him. This is a concept that predates abrahamism. The other ideas we have about god are all gathered through specific revelation or exegesis.A person could simply stick with 'the first cause' though. It is said that abraham was chosen by god because of his intense hatred of idolatry. So long as you remember the one supreme thing is absolute and unknowable and remember that everything else is a false idol you are doing pretty good.>>747641028the idea of a script still requires linear thinking to be coherent>>747641063>China is an exception.China is not an exception. They also think cheating is bad, because it can undermine the social order which weakens the society and allows the tibetans or mongols to come and fuck everything up. I explained the moral reasoning behind why they think its bad and offered an exception.The west would also think its perfectly fine to cheat to save a school bus full of kids. We would just process it as having done a minor bad thing for a greater good. We are always being good self sacrificing christians.The rationalization is the morality and its incredibly important because the reasons a society makes up to explain these things get used to derive new rulings and new laws. Christianity threw out pragmatism with paul because it thought the world was about to end and we had to be in a state of high ritual purity at all times. This was a common idea in that time period, the essenes also thought this for example. This is why christianity values asceticism to this day, even secular westerners will view the humble austere person who gives everything they have away as very 'good'.The reasoning is the entire worldview, the entire religion, the entire philosophy, the entire culture. When you understand a groups morality all their actions make sense.
>>747641256>That's just one of his many genocides.>I'm talking about several instances.>Did you read the book? At some point Jesus curses a fruit tree for not being in season.>Why does he want evil to exist?>Oh that's okay then. Slavery is fine as long as you don't beat them too hard, because I'm a good God.
>>747641383If God doesn't know what I'm going to do he is inherently limited so he isn't God.
>>747641419our father and god are 2 different beings people will call our father god interchangeably and this can get confusing to those who don't know.
>>747641152>my beliefsUnlike you I hate the Demiurge.
>>747633612i had a dream this guy was shooting laser beams at enemies, was cool to see, kind of scary
>>747641280He's an idiot as shown here >>747641412. Gnosticism was around way before Christianity and Jesus was 100% well versed in it along with Zoroastianism.
>>747641336>the original Hebrew writingsWhich we can't find for the most part, the oldest parts are majority in Greek
>>747641449so it's cool to murder innocent people if they end up in heaven after?
>>747641360>so if I program a robot to do Xdisingenous. you program it so it can make a choice between X, Y, Z, etc. at every step, and you leave it 10 basic instructions so it can always know how to choose what's best for it, but it can make decisions that will cause it to destroy itself
>>747641469>popularityNo, they were decided based on authenticity. Most every denied book of the Bible had stark inconsistencies or were written by frauds trying to subvert the religion, like the gospel of Mary, the gospel of Jesus, the gospel of Barnabus, the gospel of thomas, they aren't even written with the same patterns of language of the time they claim to be from.
>>747641497What makes him God is that he created the universe.
>>747638862Anon the old testament predates christianity and greek larpagan cults.
>>747641167Book of Enoch predates and is quoted in the New Testament yet the Romans refused to include it.
>>747641494>All of them are justified>All of them are justified>The tree represents Israel being unable to "bear fruit" despite it being the right time (It's also justified)>Check out the entire argument about free will happening>Treating slaves like actual people is a stepping stone to not having slaves
>>747641358>decoupling from himdefine that first because now you're just vagueposting
>>747641572>Why some text was left out> Writings used only by a tiny fringe sect or a single region never achieved the universal recognition needed for the wider church canon.
>debating theology with the avg 90 IQ, brown, hypogonadal and porn addicted userbase of /v/eddit
>>747641273Jesus wanted to be a teacher and an example for others not to be worshipped. He would hate the Catholic cult that Paul created.
>>747641540It was confirmed in the Dead Sea Scrolls and cross referenced in the Ethiopian Christian texts. The Talmud has Rabbis arguing why God accepted Mastema's deal, so its hardly something "we can't find", you just dont know about it (as is intended).
>>747641497There are lots of gods throughout all of human history that were known to have lots of limitations. Your definitions are meaningless.
>>747641597The Ethiopean Church includes book of Enoch in their Bible
at least in the nobody threads on /x/ the posters know that theyre insane
>>747641597>St Jude gets to decide the entire biblical canon
>>747641401moses killed someone back in egypt when he got angryhe also struck a rock with his stick instead of asking godthese are minor or understandable things, which is why moses is said to still be the most righteous person who ever existed, but god is just and so moses had to be punished.Many times punishments happen to you here and now to clear you of them so they do not happen in the next world (where they are more severe). So they say.
>>747641639>God>limitationsthey were fake gods, or faggots for short
>>747641336Satan is a fully syncretic figure, he has elements from a dozen different religions.
>>747641167i still think the world is very nice. crazy thing is that i'm the optimist now in a sea of sensationalists
>>747641612What is unclear about it?If we are in god's realm, decoupling would be the ability to leave his realm and influence.
>>747640732Yes predestination is incompatible with free will. Have you never read any basic philosophy?
Gnosticism is just a bunch of pagan people hearing about Jesus and trying to mix him in with other beliefs at the time. You see it all the time with weird African sects of Christianity and with Islam.
>>747641620stooping to this level makes all participants equivalent
>>747641489>The reasoning is the entire worldview, the entire religion, the entire philosophy, the entire culture.Anon, who cares? If the end result is the same, it barely matters.
>>747641620>and you didn't know it then, but this is as good as it gets.
>>747641713>decoupling would be the ability to leave his realm and influencehow and why?
>>747641685Trying to define God out of existence is just as pathetic and useless as trying to define God into existence.
>>747641730It's the logical conclusion of>Why is one god in the old testament completely different from the god in the new testament
>>747641713Complete nonexistence then? Because "His Realm" includes literally everything.
>>747641639Those were part of polytheistic religions. The Christian God is the one true God and he's supposedly perfect. That's what makes him God.
>>747641635This is what Im talking about when I say gnostics don't read the Bible. Even ignoring Paups letters, this statement runs in direct contradiction with the 4 gospels. >Jesus was just like *tokes bong* a really good teacher
>>747641479Term is Luciferianism. Higher degree Freemasons believe that Lucifer is the Gnostic Sophia. The Catholic Church probably has their own version of that.
>>747641596Why do Christians care about Jewish schizo writings so much?
>>747641784?
>>747641730All Christians are just a bunch of pagan people hearing about Jesus. Especially at that time.
>>747641795Why argue this when half of the gnostics in this thread argue that the New Testament isn't legitimate?
>>747641742The end result is not the same because as ive explained three times now the justifications made for a rule then get used as guides to make up more rules.Christianity and how it deals with morality explains fanatical western political polarization for example. The tendency is spreading now only because western culture is spreading.
>>747641795>Why is one god in the old testament completely differenthe's not though
>>747641489ok imagine God sees all possible futures simultaneously, that means he knows every single Adam and Eve and what they will doif he makes an Adam and Eve who only sometimes eat the apple he knowingly spawns multiple realities in which he will cause people to suffer because of the "choice" Adam and Eve made, if he is perfectly good why would he do this? he KNOWS the Adam and Eve that eat the apple in that reality are real before he creates themif he makes an Adam and Eve that will always pick the same option then free will isn't real and if it's the one where they eat the apple then God is also an asshole if free will exists and everything happens in some reality then are there realities where God doesn't make Adam and Eve? how is he God thenif God is the prime cause and there are no Gods that act differently in other realities then is him creating Adam and Eve predestined meaning God is limited and doesn't have free will
>>747641850The argument is that what is included in the new testament isn't the full story and that other texts were left out because it wasn't convenient for the catholic church
>>747641770>howgood question >whybecause that is a part of freedom?>>747641803This is also the issue, an inherit belief of some false-entirety. humans have free will to decouple but oops everything is actually his controlled arena so it's not actually free but uhhhhhhhhhhhh
>>747641730Gnosticism existed before Christianity. Jesus was a Christ-like figure. Christ isnt a singular title, or a name and the word existed before Christianity. It denotes someone with divine capabilities, which there have been many of.
>>747641603>They weren't.>They weren't.>Baseless.>I'm in that argument and we're winning.>Stepping stone? He's God, just forbid that shit.
>>747641875Jesus wouldn't have sent bears to kill kids for calling a guy bald.
>>747641591why does that make him perfect or all knowing or moral though? maybe making the universe was a bad thing
>>747641795>completely differentIts the same dude if you understand types and consider that even the early OT Jews didn't punish according to the levitical laws every single time. Time and time again in the OT we see the Jews breaking the levitical laws and many of them aren't immediately charged and put to death.
>>747641912inherent*
>>747641563No, because I know ahead of time which choice it's going to make at every step. I'm an omnipresent God.
>>747641841Some people try to define God into existence by saying things like the universe is God. That anon is trying to define God out of existence by saying God doesn't meet his own personal human standards for the definition of that word.
>>747641682but God gave his reasons for killing him and not letting him go to the promised land and they were not that, other people despite being less moral got to live out their lives and go to the promised land so God chose to hurt Moses more than people who were less moral than Moses, why did he do that?
>>747641825I'm just listening to what he said in the Gospel of Thomas.>His disciples questioned him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?" >Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."
>>747641572Genesis is Gnostic.
>>747641928>They were>They were>It's literally the point of the argument>Your side sucks, what are you talking about>Humans are stupid and don't adjust to change quickly
>>747641935>kidsThey were a mob of adults, mocking God and his prophet, and likely about to physically attack him. But I'm sure BillyBobs translation for readers who don't read so good calls them toddlers sure....
>>747641884you're just abusing "if" to tie together sophistry
>>747641804>The Christian God is the one true God and he's supposedly perfect.Supposedly. According to himself. But we can instead evaluate his actions and determine his qualities from that. It doesn't make him any less God, as the supernatural creator and ruler of the world.
>>747641730Christianity started in Syria.
>>747641854Those "more rules" will just fall within the same paradigms anyway, because if they don't, your society stops functioning.>Christianity and how it deals with morality explains fanatical western political polarization for example. Again, not true. Political polarization has always been a worldwide phenomenon. You think this is the first or last time that's going to happen?
>>747641912I genuinely don't know what point you're trying to make, anon. You're free to make whatever moral action you want, but you're not all powerful or anything.
>>747642093no answers then?
>>747642071>These guys aren't kissing our feet!>Better murder them.So God believes in free will but not free speech lol.
>>747641935[KUMA SHOCK]
>>747642031>grabs pen in third century: yeah like, don't lie or steal, also there's like this hidden knowledge bro, it's gonna get you out of the 7 cycles and get you to samsarah bro trust me!
>>747642101I'm starting to think God is an unreliable narrator.
>>747641839The comment chain was about the story of Adam and Eve. Try to keep up.
>>747641937None of those things are a requirement of being God, that's my whole point. Are you illiterate? God is God because he created the world and presides over it as a ruler, not because of whatever qualities you demand like a petulant child that he must possess. It's like if you said your dad isn't your dad because you don't like him. What makes him your dad is that he came in your mom, not that he meets your personal standards for how you think a dad should behave.
my favorite christ? christ buri anshar whose body exploded after death and covered the entire galaxy in a warm, cleansing light
>>747641884>God sees all possible futures simultaneouslyThey arent possible futures he is seeing simultaneously, as this implies he is sitting in a frame of reference where those are things that are yet to have occurred. Like i said there is no need for a multiverse. He can simultaneously let you choose and know what you will choose because even 'simultaneously' is a bit of a misnomer, that is still implying 'the now' exists.>>747642007its also been said by jews that everyone who was a slave in egypt had to die before they could go to the promise land so that the entire group were cleansed from the memory. Im pretty sure its considered that moses was being punished mainly for killing a guy though.>>747642106Political polarization like we have is due to us being trained to feel self righteous because every opinion we have must be justified by something with the force and authority of a divine edict. We arent allowed to just have preferences or opinions, we have to be right. So we make ourselves right.Now this is actually a good instinct, we should act based on high principals. The issue is we have trouble identifying what those high principle really are and what they say because we do not have a tradition of legalism.
>>747642215Isn't that the point of the Demiurge?
>>747642031>Gospel of ThomasIsn't that the one that states women need to turn into men to get to Heaven?
>>747642215or it could be the thousands of years, thousand different writers, religious institutions with power to keep and expand, and the 5+ layers of translated languages
>>747642187The point is to find the divinity within yourself through things like imagination, reason, and love.One day we will use these gifts from the true God to escape the Demiurge's material prison forever.
>>747642260>women need to turn into men to get to HeavenBased and correct.
>>747642215Now you're getting it.
>>747642236If God isn't wise or good etc why should I worship him because he created the world? If someone's dad is a crazy murderer are they supposed to obey him because he's their dad?
>>747642215The people writing about him are, without a doubt, unreliable.
>>747642316Gnostics sure are accepting of transsexuals
>>747641884kek this is your brain on sci-fi slop
>>747642224A story created by Jews.
>>747642336the dad would kill you, so ya better listen up, sonny jim
>>747642313>find the divinity within yourselfNo bro, it's about finding Jesus maaaaaan, and like.....fuggin uh...... Taking up your cross and following Him dude. For it was like.....written or some shitNo one comes to the Father except through meJohn 14:6
No matter how eager and desperate a bucket gets it can never contain the entirety of the ocean within itself To understand God would be to become God, and you are a vessel much too small and flawed
>>747636949>applying human comprehension of good/evil and morality to a cosmic being beyond human understandingyou sound like a child who doesn't understand why he was told "no" so he thinks daddy is a meaniehead
>>747642069>Killing all children and animals because humans le bad >justified>Torturing a guy to the brink to see if he's loyal>justified>It's literally the point of the argumentWhat argument? He just tells a tree to go fuck itself. Where did you get the idea that it symbolized something? Not from the Bible.>Your side sucks, what are you talking aboutYour side's not even coherent.>Humans are stupid and don't adjust to change quicklyNot if you don't tell them to change, no. But lets say it's a stepping stone, why didn't he leave another message?
>>747642313>Find the divinity with yourselfThis is gay, cringe, lame, and leads to all sorts of nonsense
After reading thise thread i know understand why gnostics died out
>>747642071>and likely about to physically attack him.Yep justifying murder as self defense
>>747642336Whether or not you should worship or obey him is a completely separate question from whether he IS God. But to deny that he's God in the first place is just childishness, just like denying that your dad is your dad just because he's not a good dad
>Contributes absolutely nothing of value despite constantly being given every possible advantageI have Figger Fatigue
>>747642485you'll never kill all of us who know the truth.
so you're telling me that the garden of eden god was the demiurge and the snake was lucifer (prometheus) trying to bring the light and knowledge on them to break out? could lucifer (not satan) and jesus be bros? what is going on?
>>747642420Shouldn't this apply to all religions and allow any retarded cult to be justified?
>>747642260It's weirdly worded but he's really saying a woman's soul needs to gain the qualities of a man's soul to enter heaven. Gnostics don't care about our physical bodies, they're inherently flawed and temporary. Trannies should especially disgust Gnostics because they're just playing dress up in their flesh prison and think that makes them a real man/woman in their soul.
>>747642254>Like i said there is no need for a multiverse. He can simultaneously let you choose and know what you will choose Again that just means free will is an illusion, humans think they are making a choice but they were always going to make that exact choice. God doing the apple thing is like getting a hungry animal and putting food in front of him, telling him not to eat the food and then beating the animal when it eats the food. You already knew the animal would eat the food so if you do this you are a sadistic psychopath even if you told the animal it was free to eat or not eat it.
>>747642429>Yes>Yes>The point of that part is to represent Israel. Jesus loves allegories.>There are multiple people arguing different points. Your side doesn't understand how you can have free will despite the existence of an all-knowing God>What message are you looking for? Slavery did end in most civilized parts of the world, largely due to Christian efforts
it would be better to have this discussion on >>>/x/ bros
>>747642419But is his Father The Monad or The Demiurge?
>>747642558Yes. They were according to gnostics
>>747642558Be careful, you're about to wander into mormon territory
>>747642558the problem is people who take the story literally, which you can't. VERY IMPORTANT DETAIL: The bible is atleast partially written by literal Free Masons, they LOVE obscure layered metaphors and symbolism
>>747642541Too many people just willing to join cults if theres no need to buy in or change your wicked ways
2000 years ago people knew the bible was metaphorical and shouldn't be taken literal. but then protestant cucks aka angloids aka amerigolems came and fucked up everything as usual.
>>747642558
>>747642485They died out because they're really annoying and dumb. They also hate this material world, so they didn't have as many long term plans.
>>747642254>Political polarization like we have is due to us being trained to feel self righteous because every opinion we have must be justified by something with the force and authority of a divine edict. We arent allowed to just have preferences or opinions, we have to be right. So we make ourselves right.>Now this is actually a good instinct, we should act based on high principals. The issue is we have trouble identifying what those high principle really are and what they say because we do not have a tradition of legalism.We've had preferences and opinions for thousands of years, what are you on about? Far more self righteous people have existed around us. I like you, butt this is conjecture.
>>747642519OK let's agree that "God defined as whatever created the universe" created the universe. Why is this "God" in any way related to the God from any religion? If God is a vague scientific principle there's no point to even talking about it, it's like saying the Big Bang is God.
>>747642485they died out just like mithraism, you either become extinct or start collecting the wrong kind of people who corrupt your practices
>>747642430It's what inspires divine works of art that alter the course of entire cultures and civilizations, like The Illiad or The Divine Comedy.
>>747642679also forgetting the part where they were genocided by the catholic church but go off queen.
>>747642736
>>747642663If this retardation leads to the salvation of countless more people, then is it worthwhile?
>6AM NEET theology threadUhh, cringe?
Since the thread is ending, could you anons give me feedback on something?I'm trying to write a story, and one of the major characters is a religious leader that's supposed to be a mirror of generic Gnostic beliefs, i.e. they believe that the "Soul" is evil and that the "Flesh" was created to contain it. They also believe that God created the material world, which was then invaded by these souls. Is this a coherent belief system?
>>747642793Persona starts at 3
>>747642568The principle behind it is not affect by the current contemporary brand attached to it But yes, a bucket might get tricked into thinking the sink is an ocean
>>747642663Yes but then why should you believe anything in the Bible more than a random faerie tale book? If one thing in the Bible is false or a metaphor why is this other thing "real"?
>>747642793I have issue with P1's soundness
>>747642792Not even the angriest anti catholic atheist historian believes in a gnostic genocide. You heretic retards were booted from the church
>>747642830This. I love Jung namedropping
>>747642736There you go trying to define God in and out of existence again. God isn't defined as WHATEVER created the universe. God is a specific sentient supernatural being WHO DID create the universe and who has the title of God BECAUSE he created the universe.
>>747642420Why would you follow a God who has secret and confusing reasons for doing things?It's like the captain of a ship refusing to tell the crew where they are navigating.
>>747642429>evil>evil>What do you base that on?>Your side doesn't understand how you can have free will despite the existence of an all-knowing GodBecause you can't.>What message are you looking for? Slavery did end in most civilized parts of the world, largely due to Christian effortsI dunno, maybe: "hey guys, stop doing that shit."It ended after several thousand years and still goes on in many parts of the world. You think God thinks: "aaah, those people are uncivilized, they can keep going." We're all God's children, right?
>>747633612I like the snake legs chicken head dude, he's a pretty cool guy
>>747642823No, because the retardation falters at the slightest amount of pushback. It's why a lot of atheist "converts" mainly talk about fundamentalist beliefs.
>>747642890https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade
>>747642890>revisionist history by the victorsnice try.
do people only hate god because they want to sin and are scared of being punished for it
>>747642679>They died out because they're really annoying and dumb. TNo because the pope ordered them to be genocided you faggot kike
>>747642663>muh protestantRight, the Catholics didn't reeeeaally believe that shit, they were just torturing people for vibes.
>>747642793Again why the fuck is this idea of God in any way related to the God in the Bible or any other religious dogma?
>>747642928All of the gnostics lived in southern France?
>>747642826Yeah its called Scientology
>>747642949basically
>>747642904You could spend a whole month telling your dog all your secrets and teaching it how you drive a carThe dog will never understand a single word of what you said
>>747642857metaphors aren't false anon
>>747642949I wouldn't say that's the only reason, but it's a big reason.
>>747642901>God is a specific sentient supernatural beingaccording to whom exactly? why is it even sentient, specific, supernatural or a being?
>>747642679We'll soon have the technology to fully escape our material bodies and reality. Once people realize this Gnosticism or similar ideas will become the new normal religion.
>>747642854You can't know God so all religious beliefs are equally valid
>>747642890They literally lost the argument so turned to violence
>>747642989Just the ones who believed it openly.
>>747643058>escape matter with matterlmao
>>747642949>>747643004>>747643047Because the god of the old testament acts in evil ways
>>747643019hence the "or"since there's no guide as to what is false, what is a metaphor, what is the correct interpretation of a metaphor and what is literal why should you believe anything in the bible?
>>747643058>believing material technology can help us escape material realityThis might be the most hylic thing I've ever read.
theyve already lost the plot mate
>>747642605Woops>>747642907
What if you support the demiurge? Will he reward you?
>>747642928>>747642959> Innocent III's diplomatic attempts to roll back Catharism were met with little success. After the murder of his legate Pierre de Castelnau in 1208, and suspecting that Raymond VI, Count of Toulouse, was responsible, Innocent III declared a crusade against the Cathars.On assuming the papacy in 1198, Pope Innocent III resolved to deal with the Cathars and sent a delegation of friars to the province of Languedoc to assess the situation. The Cathars of Languedoc were seen as not showing proper respect for the authority of the French king or the local Catholic Church, and their leaders were being protected by powerful nobles,[55] who had a clear interest in independence from the king. At least in part for this reason, many powerful noblemen embraced Catharism despite making little attempt to follow its strict lifestyle restrictions.>After this, Innocent III called for a crusade against the Albigensians, with the view that a Europe free of heresy could better defend its borders against invading Muslims.
>>747643083It sure is convenient that all the gnostics existed in southern France in 1200ad....Those guys were really out there making moves in.....southern France, all 200,000 of them....
>>747643050Brcause I think.
>>747642793P4 doesn’t follow from the prior premises does it? If a logical absolute is conceptual then it doesn’t exist without a mind to conceive it and that breaks P1
>>747643140The old covenant is no longer valid stop fixating on the old testament
>>747643018Bad comparison. Humans can use logic and comprehend language, dogs can't.If super intelligent aliens showed up they would figure out a way to communicate with us.
>>747643185Yes. Look at the Jews
>>747643050>according to whom exactly?According to every human culture throughout all of human history. Atheism is a modern invention and atheistic societies are brand new on the scale of human history.
>>747643140>acts in evil wayswhat qualifies us to be the judge of this
>>747643208Are logical absolutes contingent on your mind? I would certainly hope not
>>747643213Then what the hell happened to my foreskin?
>>747643201why do you believe you think correctly? assuming the universe was created by a sentient being is a common way of projecting one's own traits on something else, like people assuming lightning was something an anthropomorphic god was doing
>>747643058>We'll soon have the technology to fully escape our material bodies and realityNot gonna happen in your lifetime. The type of supposition made as prophecy.
>>747643272Premise 2 is that “Logical Absolutes” are “Conceptual” which would imply they’re not physical and therefore need a mind to conceive them
>>747642826Gnostics don't believe the soul is evil, just the flesh. The soul is leftover God that can return to "heaven".
>>747643195>>747643198Gnostics existed throughout the middle east. The church burned and banned the beliefs
>>747643273Edomites controlling your health industry
>>747643002Oh, shoot, is that what they believe? I thought they were one of those "Anti-Material" cults.
>>747643231wow humans said it, it must be true thenhumans have believed all kinds of idiotic shit from the beginning of human history
>>747643213That doesn't justify the evil things the old testament god did
>>747643273Protestantism and dispensationalism took your Weiner
>>747643260Sending bears to eat kids is evilTo deny otherwise is to do retarded moral realitivism
>>747643185you mean you support your creator and wonder if you will be rewarded for remembering? of course our father wants nothing more than to have his sons and daughters back into his loving embrace.
>>747643213If that was the same God then he still did all those things.
>>747643306You wouldn't exist if I weren't communicating to you. I wouldn't exist if you weren't communicating with me. Reality is made by perception.
>>747643331Correct. Which mind?
>>747643118>>747643161>separate soul from body permanently>put it in internet virtual realityWhy wouldn't this work?>Uhhh I can just blow up the servers!So we'll build them somewhere indestructable and far out of reach. At the bottom of the ocean, in space stations, on the moon. Given enough time we can imagine and reason a solution for any problem. That's the best strength of humanity.
>>747643380I think the angels were misrepresenting God back then, God had to fix it himself
>>747643337That's why I said it's an inverse.
>>747643225And that's humanity's flawUnable to understand that the divine is not made to be comprehended by you, it's not a simple language barrier
>>747643447so there are multiple gods then depending on how specific people perceive the idea of god?
>>747643450No mechanism of transfer, even the move function on a computer is just CopyPasteDeleteoriginal by another name.
>>747643412https://share.google/aimode/V7NoBmNPDiw1aiBrL
>>747643450You would be building a hell you can no longer escape
>>747643450>He thinks virtual reality isn't materialLMAO
>>747643480So why believe one religion over any other by this logic?
>>747642596>that just means free will is an illusionNo it doesntFree will just means that you get to choose. You are saying that because from your frame of reference there appears to be a situation where you have not yet experienced the choosing that that means you didnt get to choose, like your future self stole the opportunity of free choice from you, but thats also you, no violation of free will has occurred.
>>747643474Oh, that's what you meant by mirror, sorry.
>>747637085I always thought Japan’s attitude towards Christianity, as seen in the SMT games, was more influenced by the failed attempt of the Portuguese to proselytize them hundreds of years ago.
>>747643530Lol linking ai
>>747643231Do cavemen believing in ancestor worship and spirits really count as a religion?
>>747643449You’re trying to reference later concepts in the proof you have failed to establish, if Logical Absolutes exist beyond the mind then they’re not conceptual and premise 2 is pointless
>>747634119God is evil and/or retarded.
>>747643580it's good information
>>747643576It is, language barriers and pre-held beliefs lead the Japanese to think all kinds of weird shit, like Jesus living out the rest of his days in the Japanese countryside
BTW gnostics believe OT god flooded the earth to stop Christ from saving their souls and the only reason true God hasn't stepped into the material plane to save us is because the ot god threatened to do it again of he tries
Christ is King
>>747643607Yes. Is that even a question?
>>747643547Why are you operating within man-made boundaries? You don't have to follow any religion It's akin to how we have divided the ocean into smaller ones yet it's one body of water
>>747643639Sending bears to eat kids is fucked up
>>747643619The premise is that they exist, do you disagree that logical absolutes exist?
>>747643575It's all right. I'm just asking to make sure this religion's beliefs make sense since it's supposed to be a rather large underground group.>>747643664I'm reminded of Jesus's "Chinese brother".
>>747643352Scientology is a kind of rip-off gnosticism except the Demiurge is space lord Xenu and he brain washes and traps confused souls within human beings and in order to achieve Gnosis you just have to spend thousands of dollars
>>747643728read the link
>>747643639It's taking from obviously biased sources. It's apologetics.
>>747643745AI slop isn't going to convince me of your religion
>>747643571If it's impossible for me to make any choice but a specific one then that's just pretending I have freewill. I may not know what that choice is while God does but I'm still not free, I am the sum of elements God deliberately put there knowing they would result in that one choice so God then judging me for it is ridiculous.
>>747643626god is angry that our father the demiurge created us and our reality for us, we were rejected by god and were abused by god many times as you've read in the "bible" the archons protect us here from the outside, calling this a "prison" is an insane twisting of the facts.
Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sinsSave us from the fires of HellLead all souls into heaven Especially those most in need of thy mercy
>>747643526You're just assuming it's impossible. It was impossible to instantly communicate with any person on the planet a hundred years ago.>>747643538This is coping because you hate the idea of someone being happy in a paradise of their own design.It can and will happen.>>747643546It's the furthest thing from material reality we can be.
>>747643745>They weren't kids they were teenagers!Lol
>>747643690still a more consistent story than the bible
>>747643734Sure, why not? That other guy is right though, that's a bit like Scientology. Watch the south park explanation for the quick version.
>>747643786How does sending bears to eat kids help the greater good?
>>747643821>we'll get thereYou'll be long dead before we learn how to truly move data and not just copy paste
>>747643769could be yeah, would need more discussions about it>>747643775conversion isn't the goal
>>747643706But they didn't believe in a creator God.
>>747643821Thank you for your sage wisdom, hylic.
>>747643503You only need to be percieved once.
>>747643867The members of the religion end up being weird flesh things without any individuality, so I hope that separates it a bit.
>>747643732Justify premise 2 to me. What does it provide as new information that 1 does not? Because what you’re saying is>Logical Absolutes exist (premise 1)>they are conceptual in nature (Premise 2)>they ONLY exist in the mind (premise 3)>they would exist without a mind (premise 4)You haven’t justified premise 4, you’ve set up a direct contradiction in your proof and made the whole thing pointless by negating everything except 1
>>747643889Most likely. I'll still encourage people to be happy for our descendants who will be free of this hell.
>>747643626if it weren't for this "prison" we'd have been destroyed, telling people to try and escape is malicious because in reality sending you to your death, becoming free from our fathers protection is lauded as some heroic act, when in truth you get undone.
>>747643945ok so every god exists now and also god is just theoretical principles and also is an evil bearded guy
>>747643792Nice try archon, not going into the light btw. Not getting my looshgibs, you spiritual niggers.
>>747643959Premise 2: logical absolutes are conceptualDo you agree that they exist?Do you agree that they can't be found in the natural world physically?
>>747643905That's just one definition, there's also: >A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.Any old Shaman will do.
>>747643821No, it's not. "Virtual reality" is still constrained by the material world. You are a deluded retard who probably thinks AI can develop a soul.
>>747644015Yes I do which is why I have to reject premise 4 lol.
>>747643919Ad hominem isn't an argument.If you like your prison and mentally ill warden more power to you.
>>747643952Of course, it doesn't even matter if it's similar, could be fun actually.
>>747644013one day i hope you will see the truth and reject the abrahamic lies you've been told.
>>747644049So you think the universe wouldn't logically function without people? Because that's what denying premise 4 is.
>>747643886The isrealites were fucking insane. Harsh measures were needed to keep them in line or else they would be forever lost in the chaos and with them all of humanity. The bears are just a manifestation of the wilderness. Without god there is wilderness. That's it.
>>747644021I think it's like a bridge between the material and our imagination. I don't care about A.I., I just want everyone to be free of material evil and suffering and to create their own ideal reality.
>>747644123So then “Logical Absolutes” are NOT conceptual and do not require a mind to observe them? (Premise 2 and 3)?
This was a fun thread, very few spergouts, just good old fashion theobabble.
>>747644161why did he even pick them to be his heckin chosen people? why pick anyone even? does he just get off on people murdering others in his name? it's like breeding pitbulls
>>747643995If the monad gave a shit we wouldn't be here in the first place. It lets Yaldy engage in his sadism with no consequence.
>>747644161>Without god there is wilderness.But.. but he made..
>>747644021Coding is only constrained by the limits of your understanding of programming language and your own imagination.
>>747644196They are conceptualYou don't make themWith or without your cosign they exist, this isnt controversial at all and denying these things ultimately means that logical absolutes really don't exist
>>747644207yeah somehow arguing about this shit is comfy
>>747642702>We've had preferences and opinions for thousands of yearsIncreasingly we cannot. This is because the course of pauls abolition of the law. Of course you cant have no secular rules, so christianity adopted some from here and there and winged it. This is by and large why the west was far more successful than islam. You can have a society survive on only law, its just stagnant and backwards, a society cannot survive only on ideal and so some law just materializes even if its subject to whim and typically short lived.But this is an issue that also has to do with the 'general idea' as described in de tocqueville's democracy in america. The gist is that liberal democracy creates a sense of social responsibility to have a position on everything. This is because we have to vote on things now instead of letting aristocrats and experts run it. Now, you might say this sense has declined since that book was written 200 years ago, but having opinions on things creates a culture of sharing opinions on things and for that reason alone the trend could persist.Now, in addition to this, because christianity and thus the west ever drives towards universalism we saw catholicism, which largely constrained christianity as best it could with pagan rules and things derived out of convenience or necessity, give way to protestantism. Now people who follow different rules, different interpretations, could also be included. This then gave way to liberalism where even the non religious could be included in the religion. What are the tenants of liberalism? liberty is one of them, and what is liberty but doing what you want? It is the anarchism of paul who the pagans were appalled at for preaching a system where it doesnt matter if you do evil you are already saved.So we have this situation where people feel compelled to have a position on things, but must appeal to broad ideas like 'peace is good', and no guiding authority to speak of, even a weak one like there used to be.
>>747644183Well, according to gnostics, we can only achieve that through ultimate knowledge. I don't think VR goggles are gonna bring enlightenment.
>>747644161Why didn't God just let the Romans wipe them out completely?
>>747644292These threads always reaffirm my belief in Jesus
>>747644183It's no more a bridge than drawing on paper or reading a book is. Seeking freedom from the material world through products of the material world is complete nonsense and will only lead to more despair if you fully buy into the delusion.
>>747644289If something is “conceptual” it exists in the mind. If something is “physical” it exists in meatspace. What’s the point of premise 2 and 3 if you’re actually asserting logical absolutes exist in meatspace?
Gnostics gets all serious about finding the hidden knowledge, and when asked what hidden knowledge they've discovered it's like the moral lesson from an episode of the powerpuff girls
>>747643378The fact that billions of people throughout history have all agreed upon it should hold some weight. It's hard enough to get a dozen people to agree to something, so if billions and billions of people throughout all of history agree on one thing we should probably pay heed.
i wonder if the elites ever have discussions like theseprobably not
>>747644234It's like how Jesus also helped a tax collector, I imagine. If a group of people as retarded as the Jews deserve salvation, then so do you.
>>747644260more lies to try and dissuade people from embracing the truth "he fucked your wife" "he kills for fun" "you're in a prison" all fabrications or deliberate frame job.
>>747644260It's like he's watching us from behind a glass wall that can only be broken from our side. He wants the best for everyone, even The Demiurge, so he can't interfere except to give us our souls and the power to reason and create.
>>747644318Matthew 5:17 wasn't written by Paul
>>747641986>I know ahead of time which choice it's going to make at every stephow does that invalidate creation's ability to make those choices?
>>747644374>The fact that billions of people throughout history have all agreed upon it should hold some weight.They all had zero evidence so no it shouldn't.
>>747644407Yeah but it's different you have the zealous conservatives that believe they have to keep sacrificing to Moloch and the liberals that would rather let go of traditions and focus on Lucifer's ideals
>>747644407They have access to nice 1st editions so probably
>>747644487It doesn't but anon really wants a way out of his own moral culpability.
>>747644318>Increasingly we cannot. This is because the course of pauls abolition of the law.No anon, it's not. It's because times are rough and we're banding together and trying to find things to blame. Eventually times get better and we stop fighting for a while, it's a cycle.The hole was not made to perfectly fit the puddle.
>>747644435>so he can't interfereWhy should I give a shit about him then? If the monad doesn't help why do I owe him anything?
>>747644487nta but it's more that it invalidates the creator's right to seethe about it and torture the creation over it
>>747644560It's more of a mourning lament
>>747644435>look at how merciful i am allowing them to be contained in this small sphere>everything and all the abundance outside of this small sphere will forever remain out of your reach>if you try to get their i'll kill you on the spot>im a just and good god
>>747644321I know I'm not a usual Gnostic. I don't mind everyone living in their own paradise, even the retards, so long as we don't need to be around them.>>747644343I also think art and writing are bridges to the perfect world of our imagination, they're just much more primitive versions. They can have very powerful effects on the world, like the Illiad or the Bible.
In the trails series, Demiourgos literally kills herself at the thought of her continued existence helping humanity and so humanity incubates a new and improved form of the Demiurge who you later get to have as your loli daughter
>>747644560If God existsHe is the source of all things goodYou wanna live in Goodtown or NoGoodTown, remember that you are a person with your own decision making skills and your own faculties and that "but that's not fair" isn't going to move the needle.
>/v/ - Video GamesUh huh
>>747644487They're not choices. I was made in a certain way by God, I make those choices because of how I am. God made me a failure or success from the beginning, because he controls what I am.>>747644512I don't believe in God, anon. I'm arguing from a Christian perspective. I believe I'm my own master.
The most headscratching part of gnostism is that they still recognize Jesus as Christ. So much philosophical and conceptual formulation, just to fall on the same conclusion.
>>747644631japs atleast understand how to suffer a little less in the cycle
Thanks for the thread, anon. Even if I disagree with you guys, talking about theology is fun.
>>747644643He's also the source of all things evil, and even if he's somehow not, he has the power to stop evil from existing, so he's still responsible for it.
>>747644532He did help you. He already gave you all the tools you need to escape, but you have to realize it and do it yourself. Like a baby bird breaking out of its eggshell.
theological debates seem more like people seeking emotional validation rather than anything constructive
>>747644671Right but this is where gnostics start twisting words a bit. It's like how Muslims will gladly call Jesus a messiah, but their version of messiah just means "cool dude who said some cool shit" and not "The God Man who fulfilled all of the prophecies"
>>747644671Jesus isn't the protag or the connection to God, he's just a part of a random syzygy of many. Christians turned him into a super hero deity.
>>747644660God constantly gives you the choice to avert from your corrupt ways but you choose not to see it
>>747644656Look at this silly image anon, you saw nothing.
>>747644724what about free will
>>747644671You see this a lot with especially beloved people in history.>>747644750Still wild to me that Muslims believe Jesus had one of His followers die in His place to get around the resurrection. Despite this, they still believe in the Virgin Birth
>>747644617You seem confused. The Demiurge is the one keeping us in this prison. The Monad or the true God is watching him with pity and hopes the souls he's trapped will find the path he laid out for us to escape.
>>747644724Evil is just not aligning with God. The evil isn't instantiated by God, it's instantiated by man
>>747644772The corrupt ways he programmed me to have.>>747644810Doesn't exist under Christianity.
>>747644861And man was made by God. If man is evil, God made man evil.
>>747644862>God made me this way. Starting to sound like a gay methodist, easy their tiger
>>747644862God is forgiving and merciful, have you ever considered averting from corruption with small steps?
>>747644862>Doesn't exist under Christianity.please explain>The corrupt ways he programmed me to have.not programmed, explained through the inherited corruption of original sin, epigenetics
>>747644912>I take no accountability for my actionsNigger logic
>>747644912Man isn't completely evil, but has the choice to freely accept or deny God.
>>747644912God allowed man to turn reject Him, yeah.
>>747644446It also doesnt mean what paul said because paul was salvaging a movement based on the imminent end of the world after the world failed to end and had to invent theology that i kid you not amounts to all christians being technically undeadKeep in mind i like paul, he was a radical who did some merkavah and went to gods throne then came back preaching to gentiles which overall was a good thing for the world. I just think it was still probably highly heretical and so we have a few wrinkles to iron out before we implode on ourselves, which would be a shame because freedoms do seem to be a great idea, in a sensible measure.>>747644513I dont know, it seems like most people lack an internally consistent worldview and i think it makes a lot of sense when you take these things into consideration. maybe its all just nails for me
>>747644671Jesus was just one messenger of the truth. Personally I believe more in Plato's philosophy.
>>747644772God knows what everyone will choose meaning they don't really have a choice.
>>747644848no you are confused, the demiurge is our creator and this "prison" is our only home we're being protected by the archons from the monad, we're relegated to this small space as a mercy because of our fathers love for us we have a space at all.
at the end of the day you're just gambling on the eternal fate of your soul, better to play it smartshit sucks but it is what it is, maybe we'll understand more why this situation is tolerated when our souls/consciousness whatever you want to call it leaves our physical bodies
>>747644926Not an argument, anon.>>747644943>>747644948Not the point. If there's a all powerful God who made me, he is responsible. I don't believe in God, so I believe in my own responsibility, but by your logic, I'm not.
>>747644926Not him but things like addictions and mental disorders are usually heritable.
>>747645012or you gamble on>hey retard why'd you blindly believe lies about me?>think about that while i reincarnate you as a brown
>>747645012but you don't know which god(s) are real and what they really want so you don't know what to do to appease them
>>747645012I chose eternal life so I put my faith in Jesus alone.
>>747644990That's not how love, beauty, truth, or good works.
>>747645012I think Christianity has the best evidence, desu ne.
>>747645012yeah. Pasca's wager. get saved anons - nothing to lose, everything to gainJohn 3:16-18>For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
>>747644631speedreading retard
>Romans explicitly has Paul likening non believers to common pottery meant to be used once and discarded>”Let me tell you why Paul is wrong and I heckin don’t like predestination ok”lol
>>747645029Ok, nigger.
>>747645083Someone should tell God that.
>>747645038You didn't inherit your addictions from God, anon....
>>747645006He's more like a kidnapper who stole all of our souls from the pleroma to keep them in his toy box.
>>747644945An all powerful being made me and the universe, he knows what's going to happen to me in this universe ahead of time, because he's all knowing, yet he doesn't interject. He just lets me waddle off a cliff and punishes me for it.Where does free will come in?
>>747645029the narrative is that the entire point of everything was specifically so you could do what you want in it and the one thing god gave you is the ability to make decisions.The reason is never really specified, though mystics can tell you various theories. One idea is that we are all a tiny part of god and the whole thing is a purification process to sort the good from the bad.
>>747645118sounds suspiciously like he was calling us proto-goyim
>>747645109It's still ridiculous that God supposedly sent his son who is also him to larp as a human and get tortured to death like that somehow accomplishes something.
>>747645136But he created my parents who cursed me with them.
>>747645059>>747645069i think investigating christianity will provide enough evidence of god extending grace to this specific faith moreso than any other
>>747645142>yet he doesn't interjectThe holy spirit is a near constant interjection actually, and yet another excuse why you can't blame God for your shitty decisions. God is basically screaming at you at all times that He loves you, and is actively showing you that.
>>747644984>I dont know, it seems like most people lack an internally consistent worldview and i think it makes a lot of sense when you take these things into consideration. maybe its all just nails for meYeah, but everyone does, in all cultures. We're just justifying our actions so the group doesn't lynch us.
>>747644490>They all had zero evidenceThat's true if you ignore all the evidence they had.
>>747645193Jesus is both fully a separate being and fully a part of the trinity of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
>>747645012Alright, I think I'll gamble on Odin. Wish me luck, guys.
>>747645209>God made my parentsDo your parents not have parents? Do their parents have parents?
>>747645212god literally cursed everyone from birth over something other people did that he knew they were going to do because he made them like thatat least gnosticism is kino as a fiction
>>747645193Self sacrifice for truth is the most inspirational thing for humanity.
>>747645129Stop following nigger logic God then.
>>747645274So God did a stupid thing, got mad at it and then fixed it by torturing himself? He sounds like he needs therapy.
>>747645349You're nigger logic retarded.
>>747645286Okay wise guy. God's the one who made us evolve this way. We were happier as ignorant monkeys.
>>747645142what makes you believe this is what all knowing meanshave you sought clarity on this definition from trusted sources?not even trying to evangelize or anything like that, i think organizing a meeting with established religious leaders and recording the conversations would help you establish stronger verifications for definitions of this naturebring these specific ideas up with a couple priests and see how they respond, then imams, then rabbis, then monks, etcthere's literally nothing for you to lose by doing this
>>747645193God the father in union with His Son sent His Son to live a perfect sinless life and thus being the singular being on earth undeserving of death, to die that we may be set free from the decisions of our forefathers. Why? Because He loves you.
>>747645330But Jesus already knew the truth and didn't need to sacrifice for it also this whole thing started because humans dared to want to learn the truth against God's wishes.
>>747645140our father and his mother were rejected by the monad when we were created, the monad punished our father by filling peoples heads with lies trying to get them to escape knowing full well that meant their deaths to spite our father, to combat this the escape was made obscure and difficult but not removed because our father loves us and wishes those who truly wish to leave the possibility even if it means you get undone, freedom means difficulty and its taken the souls time to adjust to having free will as we were nothing more than automaton slaves before.
>>747643576>>747643664Japs have a very strange history and relationship with religion where they tend to distrust the concept of religion in general. There is a tendency to view anyone who is outwardly religious in Japan in a manner similar to how someone in the West might view a member of a fringe cult.Japan never really had particularly strong religious movements in pre-modernity. There were Buddhist influences, and some amount of unorganized local superstitions and myths most people call Shinto, but something like Christianity was entirely new to them. Japan, being in farthest reach of East Asia had time to react to the expansion of European powers and recognized Christian proselytization as a colonization tactic (which it was). So when Christian converts revolted, it was all the excuse they needed to crush the religion and expell the outside world.Centuries later Japan is forceably opened and it needs to adapt to the new world. During Meiji period it adopts the old superstitions into a nationalist Shinto cult to fight western influence and Christianity. it places supreme spiritual authority within the imperial family, whose emperor is a literal god.That goes well until WW2, where Japanese ultranationalism leads to its devestation, and the U.S forces Emperor Hirohito to basically tell the population that the Imperial cult they died for was bullshit. I dont think it should be understated how WW2 kind of destroyed Japanese spiritualism. Post WW2 there really is no true Japanese religion and that void becomes filled with schizo new age cults like Aum Shinrikyo that further paint even more of a bad image that religion is something for the insane.
>>747645146What do you think determines our decisions?
>>747645391>I'm not morally culpable for my decisions, nor is my mom, or her mom, or her mom, or her mom, or her momHow far does this cascade back before we hold anyone accountable for their decisions?
>>747645426>god tortures people for things that aren't their fault but he loves them so he will stop doing that by sending himself/his son to get tortured
>>747645432The point was to spread that message of truth to others using his own death to get their attention.>this whole thing started because humans dared to want to learn the truth against God's wishes.Blame The Demiurge for that one.
>>747639083Silent Hill
>>747645457I remember seeing studies showing that Christianity is on a rise in Japan
>>747645295>cursed everyone from birththat's not how i see it, i see it more as a>i'll give you good life but if you sin you'll cook your lineage so don't do thatand then they sin and have to live with cooked offspringit's more like an epigenetic consequence of corruption than it is anything else, investigate the implications of thislike how chickens locked in coups for generations still inherit the fear of eagle shadows and shit, dna is crazybut i'm just a retard, read my other post >>747645394 and seek clarity from more trusted sources
>>747645519>its not my faultIt is your fault though. Even with original sin you could still have not actively sinned. And yet you did.
>>747645519You know Hell is something you choose, right?
>>747645216Great, and then what? How does that stop someone from making shitty decisions? Even full blown Christians make bad decisions, arguably more so than atheists, according to crime statistics and academic/career success.
>>747645530So it was a publicity stunt to raise awareness? Well at least it's consistent with the gnostic version of Jesus and God being at odds but in the normal Christian version it's a schizo moment.
>>747645584>>747645609You're missing the point that it's fine for people to judge others for the sake of a functioning society but God made them like that on purpose so he doesn't get to without looking like an ass.
>>747645614>Christians make bad decisionsI never said they didn't.
>>747645386Calm your tits, sperg. I already said this isn't my world view.
>>747645445The Demiurge only created our bodies, not our souls. Those were first created by The Monad in the pleroma. The Demiurge only has the power to create material things.
>>747645561>if you sin you'll cook your lineage even aside from knowing they will sin beforehand cursing their offspring is pure spite and evil
>>747645394All knowing means knowing everything, what else could it mean? Knowing most things is not all knowing, knowing certain things is not all knowing.
>>747645685>its fine to judge others for the sake of functioning societyWere allowed to judge righteously, but more often than not we do the judging part without the righteous part
>>747642558The serpent was Christ. There is no individual named Lucifer in the Bible, it's a title.
>>747645487Anon it's a fact that alcoholism is a heritable trait. Your genes are screaming at you that alcohol is awesome every time you take a drink. Even the best people can go down that path when going through difficult times.
>>747645193It caught on because people freaked out over the temple being destroyed and the logic of a final super special sacrifice making the temple no longer needed was pretty compelling to people wondering how they are supposed to do their religion anymore.It also seems jesus was sort of a fashionable universal guru for a couple centuries with all sorts of groups of various types including him. Many pagans added him to their pantheons, many strange offshoots of christianity. They all got wiped out by the romans.>>747645465I think there is a way out of every bad situation when it comes to your own psychology, and that we are given what we need.I generally reject determinism entirely because i reject naturalistic causation entirely. What we take to be causal interactions are just general tendencies god maintains so we have a universe to exist in to make decisions in. Cane make decisions if outcomes are random. But if you want to do a thing all you have the freedom to do is to decide to and will it to be done, then god rewards you with the consequences good or bad. Even for mundane actions.These almost always act in accordance with what we would consider naturalist causation because as i said, it wouldnt be fair otherwise. The slight manipulation of these outcomes though across all people and decisions and all things in the universe is how god ensures reality is always in exactly the state he wants it to be in the big picture regardless of the decisions people have made.
some people say that without free will you wouldn't exist, you'd just be a brainless soulless npc robot not even aware of what you're doing, no different than waves hitting a beach, a purely physical automatonso in order for you to truly exist, you need to have true free will, which by nature holds you culpable for the consequences of your actions and thus the consequences of your ancestors' decisionswhat do you think about that>>747645614>How does that stop someone from making shitty decisions?it doesn't, christians do dumb shit all the time, the point is that jesus loves them enough to save them from the consequences of these sinsmany orthodox priests say "you will never be sinless, the only goal is to struggle against sin, to aspire to do it less as you continue to live"not "be perfect or go to hell"to them, the attempt to resist sin is the goal of their lives, not to actually be sinlessi'm serious dude, read >>747645394 and go have discussions with priests and religious figures and people like that, they'll clear up many things for you without being annoying and saying "now come to church or burn idiot", i swear this is true
>>747645698Whatever your world view is must be retarded. Post it or quote it ITT in case I missed it.
>>747645775Sure but again God knew that so he doesn't get to complain, only other imperfect people.
>>747645801Are you saying God is an alcoholic and you inherited it from him? Or are you blaming God for your alcoholic father incurring a debuff on your lineage by way of bad decision making?
>>747645685The big issue is people trying to be God.
>>747645801>Alcoholism is a heritable traitgoing to the store, paying for it, and pouring it down your throat is not heritable but an active set of choices you make. God said to not even look at alcohol and if you inherited alcoholism but never taste it you'll be fine
>>747645864>Are you saying God is an alcoholicnta but it would explain so much
>>747645820>If there's a all powerful God who made me, he is responsible. I don't believe in God, so I believe in my own responsibility, but by your logic, I'm not.>I believe in my own responsibility
>>747645746>knowing they will sin*knowing they could sinthat's an element of free will that people underestimate, your options can be known, not your actions
>>747645705and what were you before we were given shape and our home oh thats right you were nothing before that, kept on a shelf like a bobblehead on the dashboard of a car, you were given life, the freedom to live how you want, and the abundance to create great works, calling this prison is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.
>>747645821>God knew that so He can't complainHe has the highest authority to complain
>>747642558Yeah, why you think one of his titles is "the light bringer"?
>>747645864The latter. Why does God even allow an evil destructive poison like alcohol to exist anyway?
>>747645924again that would lead to multiple universes and multiple versions of god OR god made people knowing they were always going to make the one choice so there's no freewill
