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>>750003615
>nerfnow

>>750003615
in return i ask you, if core evil can be construed to be not as evil and core good can be construed to be not as good, if the alignment system means nothing, why pretend to maintain it?

>>750003615
Take off her shoes

>>750003615
The thing is, neither of these are inherently bad.

>>750003615
Because in the before time's, words had meanings.

>>750003615
Tieflings aren’t demons though.

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>>750003745
If I can misconstrue you to be a gay retard based on that comment alone, does that mean you were always a gay retard and that fallen trees in the forest don't eat breakfast?

>>750003767
brownoid monkey brain short circuit

>>750003615
>Holy warrior
>Looks like a whore
I prefer the mango version where the big devil fills all her holes with his cum and the kid watches.

>>750003615
Nerfnow already made the same point but funnier though.

>I WANT TO BE OUTRAGED
>I WANT THE SHITTY TROPES TO EXIST SO I CAN BE CORRECT BY BEING OUTRAGED BY THEM!
>I DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT FUN IS ANYMORE I JUST WANT TO BE RIGHT
>"Yes."

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Subversion for its own sake isn't original, witty or even entertaining. Like i cannot imagine someone sitting down, giggling to themselves like a neanderthal going:
>but in MY STORY heh....heh everything is flipped upside down
>the woman is the hero, the knights are evil, the orcs and goblins are all misunderstood and the dragon is protecting the kingdom from the king who is a stand-in for a hated political figure

Just play JRPGs

>demons bad
>god bad
>greed bad
>nature and harmony good

>>750004003
Okay but what if the kid fills her holes with cum while the demon encourages him

>>750003615
it's just not D&D
>>750003776
market oversaturation of insincerity causes a reactionary market correction

>>750003767
Demons conceptually have been around since the dawn of human superstition and Tolkien's conception of orcs were not based on any one real race/religion/nationality/etc, but rather their behavior.
>Yes, I think the orcs as real a creation as anything in 'realistic' fiction: your vigorous words well describe the tribe; only in real life they are on both sides, of course. For 'romance' has grown out of 'allegory', and its wars are still derived from the 'inner war' of allegory in which good is on one side and various modes of badness on the other. In real (exterior) life men are on both sides: which means a motley alliance of orcs, beasts, demons, plain naturally honest men, and angels. But it does make some difference who are your captains and whether they are orc-like per se!

>>750004130
Honestly its not a bad idea but it needs to be fleshed out. There needs to be some clear reasons why these things are perceived the way they are but are actually not without feeling cheap to the reader

>>750003615
Modern fantasy wouldn't even have bikini armor.

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>>750003615
I want more fantasy games with this dynamic instead. Villain protagonists are based.

>>750003767
>clap back
What if people just argued instead of clapping their hands together like chimps?

>>750003615
Boomers were right. Subversion is lame

>>750003615
the mentally retarded have problems trying to move on so they keep to their safe spaces and complain about things changing.
lower pic generation was raised on the upper pic so they have fun twisting the fantasy. we've also moved on past that as well.

>currently
the red demon is actually your punk wife and the skeleton is the big bad these days. the kid is the narrator and the paladin is a futanari.

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>>750004405
Being evil is sorely overlooked in video games. At best some RPGs let you do it, but those days are mostly gone. Everything else is just fetish shit.

>>750004405
Based.
Female adventurers should be turned into rape meat.

>>750003810
Learn how to use apostrophes, you ape

>>750003615
>Female "adventurer"
>Sexy "armor" with zero coverage
This is cancer.

This guy has been making shit comics for how many years now

>>750004495
but evil *is* fetish shit by definition. it's why it's treated as a vice, an obsession and a bad thing.

>>750004520
Rightoid tourist spotted

>>750003767
>It’s odd to see how rightoids pretend they aren’t constantly comparing non-whites to demons
You have to detox from the internet, the artist wasn't making any statement like that at all.
Mentioning that modern fantasy tiefling's are persecuted based on their appearence are direct references to 5.5 Edition core rulebooks, it's directly being criticized by this comic

>>750003615
Good demons are fine after a proper journey of character development with a very painful physical component

>>750003851
Retard lol

>>750004507
Autocorrect is a bitch, anon

>>750004551
I don't want to rape people, I just want to screw them over and kill them if it benefits me. There's no sexual aspect to it, I just want to be greedy and power-hungry in a video game.

>>750004460
>so they have fun twisting the fantasy
based on the reception to golden axe and modern D&D, no one is having fun with twisting the fantasy

>>750004405
Villain Protagonists are shit, games should emcourage players to be noble and righteous

>>750003767
"Post-liberals" are not right wing, they are the right hand of the left

>>750004208
>market oversaturation of insincerity causes a reactionary market correction
Correct, just like how
>market oversaturation of sincerity causes a reactionary market correction
caused the current trends.

>>750003615
Why millennials need evil to have a tragic redeemable story?

>>750003745
AD&D's 9 alignment system based on personality was never properly developed, it was only a reaction to the lawsuit to make it legally distinct from the 3 alignment system based on system of government and tribe that OD&D had

>>750004702
Sincerity is only a good thing.

>dnd
"Good" in D&D is a metaphysical force. Devils cannot be good or chaotic. Demons cannot be good or lawful. Daemons and Angels are the polar opposites of each other, as are Aeons and Proteans. Said beings are not genetically infused with power, but powered by their planar alignment. Angels have defenses that are pierced by evil-infused weapons and spells, for example. An angel who turns on it's alignment in a setting where alignments are a metaphysical force will find itself powerless until it (successfully) adopts a new metaphysical force, and in that case, is it really still an angel?

Additionally, using outcasts as a rule is such bad storytelling. Mythology has been rife with things like fallen angels or rogue titans to begin with. Yet actual good writers understand that a fallen angel isn't identical to an angel nor does it represent them. There are really good stories, even in modern (read: past century) media, about things such as angels and demons that turn against their own kind. But that's not what you want nor is it what you want to tell. You want to tell a story that unleashes the inner frustration you have because your parents and neighbors were Catholic or something and you've been really angry about it since you were 11. That's a really fucking shitty story, and to pretend you're anything more than a juvenile who was given access through modern society's mistake of making everything too accessible to everyone is to lie to the face of everyone around you.

So go watch Netflix's Castlevania, rub one out, and move on to something new already.

>>750003767
What are you even on about, tranny? It's not rightoids turning orcs into gay Mexicans because traditional orcs are heckin problematic.

>>750004405
>>750004495
>>750004551
>>750004647
>>750004686
I want ACTUAL villain protags though, not
>oh me oh my I know I acted bad when I was the antagonist but now that I'm playable I'm actually misunderstood and kind of an anti-hero

Ontological evil is real and there are people that would suppress even fantastical depictions of it.

>>750004382
You need genuine writing talent behind it. Shrek is subversive, but not so much that its literally tossing entire tropes away or laughing at you for expecting anything good. There is a huge, fucking talent drought right now and everyones mired in their desires to be original or subversive, just to have an imaginary victory or be known in history as the one who "challenged tradition." If there wasn't, then redditors and other retard variants wouldn't be defending these with their lives, working triple overtime to do it.

>>750004743
I guess if all you want is for media to be preaching moral lessons but normal people generally want at least some semblance of variety to stay interested

There's nothing more tiresome in D&D than trying to le subvert orcs and demons to be good.
No, not even your super-speshial-snowflake replacement of the standard races that are just elves and dwarves with a skin recolor where dwarves live in forest huts while elves live deep underground. Even those are less tiresome.

>>750004536
18
8

You can legally fuck nerfnow

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>>750003615
>Both sides are trend chasers of their time.
>Binary brained unc retards can't do nuance.
>Blowhard "creative writers" can't do coherent themes.

I kind of hate both. Good writers are way more rare than we think.

>>750003767
'clap back' from your own country, seething subhuman

>>750003615
Top is too played, one-dimensional and predictable. Intellectually trite and boring and only meant as an excuse to showcase the medium as a novelty
>armor joke
>religion BAD!
>villain is a gud boy he dindu nuffin!
>complete asspull of a plot twist
Bottom is a shitty strawman that lacks tact. Your bait sucks

>>750004857
Theres a huge difference between variety and malicious insincerity. People like for example Heath Ledger's Joker, so much that despite 20 minutes of screentime he carries more weight in his presence than Christian Bale's Batman. People can also like traditional heroes or even anti-heroes.

>>750004702
I don't know what corner of your asshole you're pulling this from, but it's just wrong. There's not been some great cycle of sincerity and insincerity throughout history. The current insincerity is from post-modernism permeating the culture and artists attempting to deconstruct everything.

>>750003767
All these salty replies proved you right lmao.

>>750004702
>market oversaturation of sincerity causes a reactionary market correction
>caused the current trends.
this is likely a false assumption, the reason why D&D and pulp fantasy became insincere had more to do with marketability
coming off of the satanic panic, D&D got sanitized in it's core rulebooks in 2nd Edition
outside of D&D, many countries were facing censorship waves, like Reagan's censorship of children's programming on TV, and the UK's video nasty era causing heavy censorship of dark themes

this had a major effect on the fantasy industry as a whole, you would not get a fantasy shows and movies were not greenlit if it wasn't accessible for young boys to watch due to new censorship laws

so, insincere comedy satire became the main bridge between making fantasy content that would appeal to both young boys and older men

outliers existed for legacy works of historical and cultural significance, like Lord of the Rings, but you can how much the tonal change in the Warcraft IP was directly related to fiduciary responsibility and applying global laws to content restrictions

there was no market oversaturation of sincerity, such a concept doesn't exist, people do not crave for insincerity, they settle for it

>>750003851
You cannot hear someone eat breakfast in a forest

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>>750004686
Playing as nothing but civilized humans/elves/dwarves/whatever gets fucking boring, because literally every fucking RPG does that. Getting to play as the bad guys leading monstrous minions against the forces of good from time to time is cool as fuck
>>750004803
This. Like the Overlord games you're supposed to be this EVIL Overlord, but most of the stuff you actually fight against are also evil.

>>750003851
Why did they make her so fucking hot?

>>750005354
>They disagree with me so I'm right
Has got to be the dumbest trope of online discussion

>>750004551
That's fucking stupid and wrong. Are you retarded?

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>>750003615
>Why are dnd boomers so mad about good demons and devils?
Friendly reminder that there are people who unironically believe devils and demons are real, and there is a "correct" and true way to do them.

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>>750005385
Did people in the 1950's to 1980's actually believe rock music and fiction with gun toting heroes or barbarians were going to somehow corrupt the entire moral existential fabric of their youth, reality and kill jesus? I had always assumed that was just some dumb fucking gag blown out of proportion.

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>>750003615
I don't actually like going full evil and will always side with spoopy monster factions because they're fun.

However, this is no excuse for cringeworthy writing. Wich is the actual problem.

In doom I kill everything that moves. But the monsters are cute. I love them. They're endearing. But that's just the logic and appeal of the game.

In rpgs you engage with characters. That's the logic and appeal of the game. Just mindlessly killing them is a little boring. I'd rather have wacky adventures with them and deal with their alien culture.

>>750004857
You have a completely backwards understanding of what sincerity means.
Sincerity does not mean preachy or morality.
It also does not stifle creativity.

Sincerity means the work can stand on it's own without being referential to things outside of the work itself.
Sincerity does the opposite of stifling creativity, it demands it.
Insincerity requires strict adherence to current social trends and market demands.

>>750005512
There is a correct and true way to do them.
The way that doesn't suck and involve "le subversion" like a bunch of faggot entryists.

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>>750003615
No, THIS is modern fantasy.

>>750005684
Your universe was made up to sell paperbacks, child.

>>750004919
>makes comics for 18 years about how horny he is
>never learned how to drawn decent fabservice
I see a lot of beaners with this same mindset, yes, a lot of then are amazing at at it. But there is a lot of then shilling patreons and non-woke comics who even after decades of drawing they can't make anything with more depth than a Garfield comic, dude can barely make round boobies

>>750005515
Oh, no, it was very much real. A few u.s. 80's senate hearings about those themes should be watchable on youtube if you're interested. I remember watching the sisters of mercy one and one about mortal kombat a few years ago.

>>750005515
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredric_Wertham

This is generally where you can see the roots of it, you can go back further with the catholic league and nazi germany, go back further and it's the protestants and further back etc.

Humanity is constantly in a cycle of reactionary overcorrections

>>750003767
> rightoids pretend they aren’t constantly comparing non-whites to demons and orcs
ironic since the most well known instance of this happening was when ultra-leftoids at extra credits called all black people orcs

>>750005816
Meant twisted sister, not sisters of mercy.

>>750005354
That anon is not your friend, he intentionally made a bad representation of a liberal critique to ridicule it with easily made arguments against it.

This is a great example to show how easily people can be manipulated to enforce consensus.

>>750005493
>anon twists his fucking neck trying to be contrarian about the concept of evil

>>750003615
"Modern" fantasy represents games released 35 years ago.

>>750004647
>>750005493
Not that anon but he is correct, fetish doesn't just mean sexual release, Villain roleplay is an aspect of BDSM, you want to satisfy an urge to dominate others

>>750004495
Because just like different races and secrets, most devs assume everybody wants to just be human/good and play down the main path then never replay again, anything else is a waste of resources that only a minority will use.

>>750004147
>greed bad
>nature and harmony good
No longer part of the core values of the west

>>750006280
roleplaying isn't being "evil" you monkey. you don't just turn that shit on and off on a whim.

>>750003615
>good demon
It's an oxymoron, retard.
>>750003767
So you admit non whites are demons?

>>750006345
The conversation is about roleplaying a Villain.
What does being a Villain entail?
You want to selfishly overpower others and subjugate them.
Your needs are above them.
That's a dom.
That's sadism.
Villain roleplay is BDSM.

Sadists are not jacking off to being a sadist, they enjoy the simple act of dominating and bullying others.
Evil isn't a part of the conversation, that has to do with taboo.

>>750005721
>i-it was never good
This coming from someone who not only felt the need to steal and co-opt it but defends those actions to this day lmao

>>750003767
>this demonic creature kills children, hoardes money, and wants to destroy every neighboring nation
>THIS IS RACIST AGAINST BLACK PEOPLE/JEWS

Hmmm...................

>>750006074
>he intentionally made a bad representation of a liberal critique to ridicule it with easily made arguments against it.
Most of the replies are literally confirming his statement. Good lord cuckservatives are such fucking rats.

>>750004520
Hello gay

>>750004520
faggot

>>750007167
You have to stop giving air to bad liberal critique, let it go and restart the conversation later with better liberal critique, usually in another thread.
There's a great argument that rightwingers always prop up dehumanized versions of tribal cultures.

But the labor you put into that conversation will not gain any value for the cause if the thread is derailed by rightwing outrage bait

>>750004520
realistic female armor doesn't exist, YOU are the cancer

>>750003745
The DnD alignment system was always dogshit, but leaving that aside, the answer to OP's question is people are mad at post ironic subversions. Not at the concept of less evil demons which isn't even new.

>>750007703
>>750006074
>Liberal
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

>>750003767
Yeah everything is weird when you reverse the order of events.

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>>750004147
>Just play JRPGs
No thanks

>>750005712
>white demon is persecuted unfairly
no, that would mean whites are not ungood, which can't be allowed to happen
>the merchant is the true mastermind
50:50 given the current landscape
>skellington censored
it's the little things

>>750005515
Were you born yesterday? That shit was happening as late as the 2000s or so with innocuous media like pokemon. It arguably never ended but that example is extreme.

>>750007903
Wasn't that actually the story there and they made peace?

>>750008363
Gargoyles != demons

>>750008434
Yeah but they look like them.

>>750008512
>racism outside of \b\

>>750007865
I'm not going to champion our weakest arguments in the eyes of the proletariat

Are they?
Far as I can tell it's mostly DND entryists who are mad that the boomers would rather just play old AD&D and ignore everything made after it and tells them to fuck off when they try to market their shit as "OSR".
Fun fact, several of the biggest AD&D boomer names are banned from being mentioned on reddit because they got upset that they were being recommended even by their fellow liberals over their ''subversive'' drivethrurpg slop.

>>750003615
Not getting enough attention in your other threads kike?

>>750003615
This doesn't actually happen though. Most fantasy still plays demons straight, and even then good ones are usually only female or they barely look demonic at all and look more like people, or at best they are helping you for their own reasons ad underlying plot.

>>750008568
>\

>>750008805
o/

All this morally grey shit I think comes from the utter retardation that was satanic panic, boomers carried on so badly it manifested into something worse, they're like king midas but instead of gold it's poop.

>>750007974
That's an ARPG

>>750008610
>our
>proletariat
Yeah, it definitely doesn't mean what you think it means.

>>750003615
Nowadays she'd either be dressed like a Muslim or would be hulking, the gore would be real (but justified as being "bigots"), no matter who is the hero everything would be laughed at, and the child would die horrifically just to torment the audience. Even comics like this couldn't predict how abrasive modern media would be made to punish us for fighting back.

>>750003615
can you frens recommend me some vidya comics to read? I only know this one and the racist elf one

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>>750003615
Didn't he already make this exact point like 2 years ago?

>>750011040
He was right then and he's right now

>>750003615
Because ontologically evil races make fantasy more simple and therefore the important parts of the story - heroism and such - can be told more straightforwardly
I don't watch a movie or play a videogame about a fantasy world to get lectured on how I should actually help le misunderstood Mexica- I mean, demon guy, I watch or play them to see good smite evil, because it's never that simple in the real world so it feels nice to watch in fantasy
It's why (you) watch porn, it'll never happen in real life but the idea is nice

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>>750003851
>>750005387
But I did hear someone eat breakfast and that's why I didn't feel hungry in the other universe

>>750011478
>and he's right now
No he's Nerf Now :)

>>750003767
Right wingers are dishonest and dumb, which makes them believe their dishonesty is not obvious. They don't know we know.

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>>750003615
>real modern fantasy

>>750004405
Villain protagonists are just cucks? Makes sense. If you have no respect for yourself, why would you have it for anyone else?

>>750003615
Subversion itself has become a cliche at this point. Im so tired of moral relativism and cynicism in fiction.

>>750003615
It's a mildly funny joke (key word here, rarely is the good demon ever given gravitas or any personality beyond being a subversion of expectations) that's been beaten to death so hard there isn't even a horse anymore, just gore.

most fiction since the 70s has been like that

the obsession with subverting everything is just another lousy aspect of millennial writing

>>750011040
It would be cool if we got misunderstood demons. But it wasn't because their evil was heccin wholesome. But because they happen to look like the demons of another group. It is sort of like how Western features slightly resembled oni and other malevolent beings in Japanese folklore and meant they both were a bit intimidated and had an easy time making war propaganda later. It would be cool to have a race that's outside interactions are shaped by looking like the spitting image of evil to those around them. Also Joking-chan is really cute; I love "fascist" girls.

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>>750003759

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>>750012041
You're right. For example, GRRM, a major figure in fantasy writing often criticized for subversive plot elements, is a 78 year old millennial.

>>750012597
kys faggot

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>>750003759

>>750012779
u mad

>>750012986
live chad

>>750003767
>burns down France
You are animals and deserve a culling

>>750003615
Actually modern fantasy (wow for example) would have him still boiling to child to death but we're inexplicably expected to look past it.

>>750003615
Because modern dnd is all based around the normative sensibilities of progressive liberal women. “This imaginary construct forces me to consider things that make me uncomfortable and don’t fit my political ideology, and so it must be done away with,” the game.

>>750003767
you have to understand, the economy is collapsing and america is going full force into a forever war on israels behalf, comparing brown people to monsters and demons is literally all they have left.

>>750011719
Least obvious leftist projection be like

>>750013167
Three different people were writing the scene separately and never came together when it got composited, please understand

>>750013181
>progressive liberal
Oxymoron

>>750003767
Truth nuke

>>750003615
>Why are dnd boomers so mad about good demons and devils?
It's an interesting question, because they believe in fallen angels, but the idea of a redeemed demon is foreign to them somehow

>>750003767
Nice freudian slip from a leftfag as usual

>>750004572
Falseflagging nigger

>>750013371
...?
your not seriously trying to shift the overton window aww by youwsewf aw u?

>>750003767
I wish minorities only existed in fantasy

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>>750003767

Its funny Kill La Kill solved the 'sexy armor is useless' problem and actually gave a perfect explanation for it and yet its never been used in anything else.

>>750014049
>pretending not to understand

Hey, right-wingers... You know that angels and demons and stuff like that aren't actually real, right?

>>750013954
>overton window
What? Words have meaning and liberalism and progressivism are two entirely different intellectual traditions.

>>750014185
If demons aren't real explain leftists

>>750014185
It's impossible to be both anti-racist and anti-christian.
You either embrace christian morality or you side with scientific racism, chose your next words carefully

Bot thread.
Or human bot thread. Same difference.

>>750014080
Most series have sexy armor for the implication that the wearer is powerful enough to not need heavy armor. Plenty of Japanese series will feature mechanics that make some exposure necessary. But modern retards pretend not to understand this obvious stuff if it isn't explicitly stated as some sort of direct naked magic as they want to push it as pointless. It is like how they'll bitch about a fanservice scene as unnecessary even when it progresses the plot in a way directly related to what is happening (bath scenes are common in this regard). They expect everything to be sterile or censored except for the degenerate shit they enjoy.

>>750004803
>Play Tranny where you are literally the evil overlord's minion
>Oh but he betrayed you so now you are good just to piss him off haha that'll show him
>Save the peasant mom in the quest
>You're the absolute evil and rape babies at lunch, so you have the choice to actually accept the 100g reward instead of not accepting it like any decent being would

Damn I'm so bad it's good

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Personally I like
>goody two shoes protagonist has amnesia
>everything they learn about themselves is very concerning

>>750014815
>salve
they speak italian or some shit

>>750014640
>>Oh but he betrayed you so now you are good just to piss him off haha that'll show him
You didn't play the game. You can only realistically backstab Kyros at 80% of the game and even then you don't have to do it.

>>750014815
So KOTOR? Dead Space?

>>750014204
Guessing you’re Hispanic? In the US we use the term “classical liberal” to refer to the original libertarian concept. The term was co-opted by leftists long ago so not really any point in arguing over this.

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>>750014978
Little demon doesn't know anything and is trying to communicate with the angel but everything she says sounds like broken menacing Latin to him.

>>750012779
>footfag calling others faggot
very ironic

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>>750014183
>>pretending not to understand

>>750003767
But I LIKE orcs and goblins.

>>750015390
>Guessing you’re Hispanic?
You're wrong
>In the US we use the term “classical liberal” to refer to the original libertarian concept.
And you're wrong to do so
>The term was co-opted by leftists long ago so not really any point in arguing over this.
It is never pointless to push back against leftist subversion

>>750003767
>people
also tell me more about how you love open borders and trannies

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>>750015258
Yes

>>750016095
Oh so you’re French. Great. Anyways, you’re never going to win a war over terminology with leftists. You likely have a life and personal goals, whereas they are mentally ill and terminally online. Better to use another term that’s completely free from the rot: libertarian.

>>750014204
>political liberalism = left wing crazies, dangerhairs, dangerhair snowflakes, cultural marxists, etc.
>economic liberalism = what you call liberalism
It's a lot easier that way

>>750016473
Not with "allies" like you who are determined to play into their hand.

>>750016648
How about we call liberalism liberalism and communism communism?

>>750004495
Evil is inherently uninteresting, because it just always boils down to "behavior which is antithetical to my tribe's ability to live." That limits your "evil" runs to either indiscriminately killing your tribe members without discretion, or abusing trust systems to amass wealth or power. Both gameplay styles are in essence indistinct from a playthrough where your character just runs into an orc camp and murders all of them for the former and a social deduction game for the latter. The "nuanced" takes of Evil are really just people trying to do what they believe is good for their tribe but not being aligned on the actions or being naive in a subject.

You can't really "do" evil.

>>750003615
Because it's the laziest shit ever. It's subversion for the sake of subversion.
It could be good, if done well. It's rarely if ever done well. Evil doesn't have to mean bad, but there should be exceptions, not norms. An entire race of demons should be bad, they are naturally evil. But there can be one good demon. The demon is still naturally evil but said demon has overcome their nature and chose to do good even still. This demon is a role model because of that, it tells a good story.
Now if every demon was just good...what story does that tell? They're just red people, maybe with horns. There is no striving to be better, fighting fate, being righteous. They're just good by default because that's just how it is. That's boring.

>>750003615
The biggest problem is how lazy it is. The image isn't even exaggerating. It really is the same shit, not even a new coat of paint, but then they exposition dump why it's actually super different and unique.

>>750004551
>but evil *is* fetish shit by definition
Only sadists and the stupid evil types get off to being evil. The rest fall somewhere between egotism, greed and delusions, not actual evil for the sake of it

>>750004958
>Killing demons, slaying monsters, buttfucking evil wizards and tyrants
>trend

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>>750003767
You did it first.

ah yes, because people have never engaged in zealotry or violent bigotry for religious reasons and therefore such a character is inherently dishonest

>>750003615
>subvert expectations
>morally grey villain
>morally grey hero
these have done more to destroy modern media than almost anything else (beside feminism and jews)

>>750003615
yep, that's all modern media, lame and gay

>>750003615
good to see nerfnow got redpilled.

>>750017932
Always this revisionism.

>>750018927
You're free to cite some earlier examples

>>750003767
maybe non-whites shouldn't act like demons then.

>>750003615
>Good demons
Outside of Disgaea I would love to see some actual examples of this.

>>750003767
They are stupid, though again I don't know where people are getting good demons from, but what can you do.

>>750014254
You are mentally ill and actively support people who hate you.

>>750018337
>Modern media
Iliad had both of them. Don't know what else to tell you.

>>750003615
Because its such an overused plot device that tries to be a subversion of expectations and thus fails.

>>750020208
Subhumans are proving you right insofar that killing subhumans is the only way to deal with them and mass discrimination is the key.

The mistake being that you are under the delusion you are not subhumans.

In my experience, modern fantasy games (the good ones at least) will often mix subversion with playing it straight. Like Baldur's Gate 3 has the tieflings, who are unfairly persecuted for looking like devils. But then it also has the goblins, who are straightforward evil fantasy goblins without any particular nuance (there are no "good" goblins). And Ethel, the medicine woman who we see being harassed by two local yokels that accuse her of kidnapping their sister. A "subvert your expectations" story would have her be some innocent woman being persecuted, but it turns out that no, she really is just an evil swamp witch (a hag) who kidnaps and eats people.

I'm actually not really familiar with any games that just do a straightforward "subvert your expectations" at every single turn. That's just boring in the opposite direction. Witcher 3 gets close but even that game is full of monsters who really are just monsters and need to be put down for everybody's safety.

>>750020229
But I'm not a leftist

>>750020451
>I'm actually not really familiar with any games that just do a straightforward "subvert your expectations" at every single turn
Because nobody writes like that.

>>750020479
Correct, you are right wing. Thus mentally ill and incapable of supporting the right people.

>>750020142
Aren't the demons in Disgaea more of aliens at this point anyway? The Heaven and Hell in Disgaea are like different sectors of space.

>>750020748
Pretty much.

But that is the case with every "Good" demon I can think of. Like Demons in Shin Megami Tensei are just mythological creatures and therefore run the gambit morally (Though as a whole they are mostly a negative to human existence and total demon death is typically a good thing). The only example I can think of "Good" demons is Demon Girl Next door, which is a literal urban fantasy comedy.

>>750016901
>Both gameplay styles are in essence indistinct from a playthrough where your character just runs into an orc camp and murders all of them for the former and a social deduction game for the latter.
What the fuck does it matter if its indistinct in its base essence? It's still fun regardless of the morality, so reflavor it to Evil for the novelty.

I want to selfishly amass power and be a bad guy against the established social order; that should not be hard to accomplish.

>>750020546
Your logic doesn't follow. Though I wouldn't expect any different from a cultist

>>750003615
This screams instant loss 2 koma

>>750020497
Go play the Witcher games, any of them. If you go by the rule of everyone is lying to you then you can make the correct choice in every mission.

>>750003615
Its stupid. In baldurs gate i always kill the tieflings AND the goblins.

>>750021000
The logic is self evident if you had any kind of in group bias, but you do not so I see why you are confused.

>>750020975
Then you don't enjoy it for the video game aspects, but the narrative. You're basically being told "You should have fun with this" then grinning like a child and doing as you're told.

>>750021065
Not really. Yeah, a lot of the time people are lying to you and being smart and attentive can pay off. But there are plenty of times where people are honest.

you can't have an interesting story about an angel falling to evil or a demon rising above his nature if the default assumption for them is anything other than being inherently good and evil

if you don't want creatures that are inherently evil in your story, don't use demons for it

>>750021216
But that's idiotic. The goblins are objectively evil, the tieflings aren't.

>>750021365
>Then you don't enjoy it for the video game aspects, but the narrative
Yes? You are framing this as a bad thing as if morality is anything more than a branching path in narrative for RPG's. Game systems are independant of morality and are based off of general concepts of risk/reward, morality does not exist as a tangible game design choice outside of assigning a narrative to different outcomes.

>>750021426
Demons being inherently evil is a christfag idea.

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>>750020546
Your right people, sir

>>750021426
We are in a weird place where these types will identify with the things like demons because they are evil and they are evil. But they also have an indescribable desire to be viewed as "good". So they write evil characters that are good, but not actually good. It isn't like the thing redditors claim about satanism where "oh we are just doing it to piss off le religious which is why we simultaneously moralfag while worshipping the face of evil". Maybe it started out that way, but the vast majority aren't larping and genuinely agree and identify with a lot of demonic and other evil stuff. I'm almost completely certain this is one of those situations where someone keeps up an increasingly dissonant facade because of societal pressure. If society suddenly lost all drive for good tomorrow, they'd just start writing a bunch of fully evil shit without any pretense. We actually almost started to see that before they were handed the smackdown.

>>750021646
Still more dignified than every right winger.

>>750021634
the concept of evil spirits or gods is very old, drastically older than Christianity

>>750021331
>The left is the side of in-group bias

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>>750021708
k

>>750021634
Dude, monotheistic religion itself predates christianity. The persians for example believed in one god and also demons.

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>>750003615
With enough time every webcomic artist turns into the Sinfest guy.

>>750021698
nah it's more laziness
people who want to write a good demon story without having to put effort into writing a believable way for a demon to overcome his nature, and the constant struggle with it
so the easiest way out is to simply say that demons aren't inherently evil
that way you don't have to spend a lot of effort for a believable origin (they simply were always good) and there's no need to write about the constant struggle (they are good because that's their nature)

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>>750003767
Profound, powerful, poignant post.

>>750021879
Akhenaten isn't just drastically older than both Christianity and Judaism, he's a monotheist that predates the arrival of the Hebrews in Israel by 300 years

>>750021617
>ou are framing this as a bad thing
It is. It means you aren't here for the gaming aspect, but the dressings and the narrative. It means your opinions will be dogshit when it comes to gameplay because all you care about is that someone in-game was on screen for a second saying "You were bad" instead of giving any thought to how it plays out.

>>750003767
I would never compare brown people to orcs. I like orrcs.

>>750021869
And the media tries to tell me that this (literal) shit is going to make a resurgence in November.
Lol at the Jewish apple though

>>750003615
This reminds me about the Frieren discourse where literal retards can't understand the idea of human like monsters that have no humanity in them and despite being spelled out how inhuman they are, IRL people still fall for the ruse because of their inability to imagine a horror that looks like you and talks like you but doesn't actually think.

>>750003767
Trvke nvke

>>750022017
Do you think linear games that do not offer player-expression in narrative are bad games? None of those are offering tangible "game aspects" in forcing you to be a good guy either and yet you won't hear a peep of praise or complaint on the gameplay in regards to that because it is independant of it.

>>750003615
if you see yourself as a "good demon" you're probably a flag waving retard protestor who burns down buildings and loots stores in the name of "better schools"

Needs to have a fleshed out reason for me. Not just
>uh they have red skin and protrusions from their skull so we genocide them but we are cool with other weird, sometimes less humanoid looking races
Most of the time it's just lazy shit where you see horny dudes being bad but then it turns out they were totally trying to do something good. I'm also tired of everything having some deep dindu lore where everyone is trying to be a good guy. Give me a hammy evil overlord who wants to conquer and rape the world because he wants to and it's fun powering up his giga kill sword 5000 with human souls and see its power go up.

>>750021708
>>750021646
>>750022389

>>750014424
Worse yet, its not even video games.

>>750003767
>clap back
nigger detected

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>>750003767

>>750022217
I've found that they tend to understand if you take morality out of it and just explain it as a predatory/prey relationship. Demons aren't exactly evil in the sense that they automatically delight in causing suffering (although some clearly do, see Aura). It's more that humans are their prey and they'll do whatever they need to do to make it easier to have access to that prey. You wouldn't call a shark evil for eating a fish.

>>750022217
>can't understand the idea of human like monsters that have no humanity in them and despite being spelled out how inhuman they are, IRL people still fall for the ruse because of their inability to imagine a horror that looks like you and talks like you but doesn't actually think.
But I can fix her though

>>750003767
> fantasy dei
> but only if every fantasy race is a atheistcally good and there is no conflict between them
> the only conflict allowed is classism

>>750017932
Look at this .jpeg
Every time I see it it makes me Kegg

>>750007865
>i'm not a liberal I'm actually a hecking socialist
Nobody cares, you're arguing for basic bitch shitlib grievance politics, compatible left Gloria Steinem type bullshit. There's nothing material or revolutionary about drawing and attacking random strawmen born from symbolic associations that you yourself decided to make, and which clearly do not represent either the authorial intent or how the media is actually perceived by the consumers.

Orcs = niggers is not an association made by reactionaries, but one made by left-leaning writers who wanted to add cheap depth to their story by comparing literal demons to the demonized representations of othered groups. It's something right wingers picked up on, not something they invented, with the exception of actual keyboard klan types who were working from the exact opposite end, comparing groups they don't like to fantasy creatures, who are in reality meant to represent abstract concepts of evil.

>>750003767
Why are you making it political? I've never conpared monsters to irl humans in my whole life.

>>750022784
>Complains about strawmen when his entire post is one

>>750003767
NON-WHITE HUMANS EXIST IN FANTASY SETTINGS. HOW CAN DEMONS AND ORCS BE STAND-INS FOR MINORITIES IF SAID MINORITIES STILL EXIST IN THE WORLD?!?

>>750007974
FF7 is dei garbage

>>750016813
progs are still mostly liberals or social democrats, not communists
social democrats are a type of third positionist, neither liberal nor commie

>>750022784
>Orcs = niggers is not an association made by reactionaries, but one made by left-leaning writers who wanted to add cheap depth to their story by comparing literal demons to the demonized representations of othered groups.
The most striking thing is how hilariously it backfired as people started making fun of leftists for representing nogs as non-humans. Probably one of the blunders of the decade

>>750022995
>HOW CAN DEMONS AND ORCS BE STAND-INS FOR MINORITIES IF SAID MINORITIES STILL EXIST IN THE WORLD?!?
It makes sense when you divorce "race" from "culture" (try to ignore that culture is downstream from race)
It's like how you can make black humans in WoW, but Trolls still have a culture based on African Voodoo shit

>>750003767
Non white are demons though?

>>750023024
Social democrats are commies,

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>>750021991
Akhnaten's religion was really impressive, he argued that heat, light, and energy were the same thing, acting as three distinct but unified manifestations of God, which is completely consistent with modern scientific understanding. He might actually have been the first person ever to propose the theory (or at least the first we know of). I highly recommend reading the Great Hymn to the Aten, it's a fascinating poem.

>>750004520
Just die you dumb worthless tranny.

>>750022939
I misunderstood your post, I thought you were a communist and the person who posted this >>750007167
Unless I'm misunderstanding again, and you actually were that poster and are some kind of centrist, in which my comment about how the racist association is made backwards towards characters like orcs and not from them still stands.

>>750023154
Was this before or after Plato's Idea of Forms?

>>750023251
almost a millennium before

>>750003615
because demons and devils are EVIL.
It cannot be coincidence that Wendigoon just posted a video about the Lesser Key of Solomon a few hours ago. This is straight up for dipshits like you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILMDRqnt8Gg

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>>750003745

>>750023143
most of them believe in private property as the primary mode of production. Maybe some of the ones in Europe are reformists who view it as a stepping stone to communism, but the ones who view it as its own end are by definition not communist.
>inb4 China is commie but has private property
China has large parts of its economy nationalized and has plans to nationalize further, supposedly completely by 2050 (although I think that's probably just their own propaganda). It's not the same as socdems who only tend to nationalize widely used public services (i.e rail, radio) and extraction of raw resources like oil.

>>750004130
>the dragon is protecting the kingdom from the king who is a stand-in for a hated political figure
Alternatively
>A stand-in for my Dad
You know it to be true.

>>750023242
I am a centrist, but a very staunchly anti-dialectical one.

>>750023724
>im [gay words] [gay words] [gay words] but NOT [other gay word], me so special
no one cares, kill yourself

>>750023724
>I am opposed to this specific form of argument
wut

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>>750014049
>be jew
>see a greedy goblin
>"wow he's literally me"

Friendly reminder than satanic inversion is genuinely dangerous. Without a strong moral foundation the media will have you believing that pure evil is justified and goodness is a joke.

>>750017932
this video did so much damage to fantasy everywhere

>>750022343
>offer player-expression in narrative are bad games?
I think "player-expression" is irrelevant to the discussion of gameplay. A game should be good on the merits of the game, not the "art" that is attached to it.

>>750021869
>Goldstein
make it stop

>>750027454
Some people tried around 85 years ago; we just need to stop being pussies that demonize them.

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>>750003615
At it's core, this is a writing issue not a design one. The people behind these subversion for the sake of subversion thinly veiled trauma vent stlye stories are widely hated, and their work is ridiculed for good reason. But at the same time the concepts they fuck up don't belong to them and can be done justice by competent writers. For example look outside did a fantastic job with the concept of friendly monsters.

>>750027704
You are the same as the leftists you use to drive people to your side

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>>750012296
>It would be cool to have a race that's outside interactions are shaped by looking like the spitting image of evil to those around them
yeah, imagine

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>>750021426
>you can't have an interesting story about an angel falling to evil or a demon rising above his nature if the default assumption for them is anything other than being inherently good and evil
nigger

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>>750029401
>Amazon

>>750029442
I picked one with a picture because i assumed you're a retard.
I read the book

>>750005830
The next cycle can't come soon enough, hopefully it's really brutal and vengeful this time.

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>>750003745
The D&D Alignment system isn't relative. The handbook outlines pretty flatly what each alignment means.

>>750004405
This but it is the zealot that rapes both me and my minion.

as much as youtube grifters bitch about muh postmodernism shit, it's still pretty rare. It's more that modern writers are chickenshit afraid of having an opinion they might have to defend from the backlash of angry retards who won't get it.

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>>750003615
We are tired of your shitty subversions where up is down, right is left and words have no meaning or context

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>>750004520
Faggot

>>750030718
>left top three and right bottom
i will now play your edgy dark fantasy vidya

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For me, it's

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>>750004495
>those days are mostly gone
they're still around, you can be really fucking evil in BG3 and kingmaker
you can also be fucked up in games like quasimorph or kenshi, though I wouldn't say it's possible to be "evil" since most everyone in those games are also evil or looking out for themselves at best

Even Greek mythology didn't have black and white good guys vs bad guys. You guys just watched too many disney films

why do Christians get so triggered over fantasy religions being evil in video games? they're filthy heathens who worship some fucking dragon or goddess or whatever not Jesus

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>>750031015
Generic FFT Knight-chan...

>>750018101
>nonsequitur
stay on topic

>>750020270
You are so stupid and ignorant

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>>750031015
female swordsman my beloved...

>>750003615
good, evil, chaos, neutrality and law are all axis that exist in the cosmos and the realms are fixed, not fluid. thus it makes sense certain races are born of those places are of those alignments: you can't fix elemental evil back to good without killing its existence completely.

Anyone who think alignment is bad is just evil and feeling called out.

>>750003615
Demons are by nature evil. Humans are either good or bad but a demon has no morals and to their nature they are doing nothing wrong and to try and tell them otherwise is to restrain their freedom which they will end up retaliating upon.

>hurrrr durrrr d&d alignment system bad
I based my entire life on this system and look where it got me, I have become a 4chan WINNER

>>750014049
It's hilarious because no one was comparing them to goblins. It was they who saw themselves reflected in them. The lack of self-awareness is astounding

>>750031168
Cute! I love the FFT generics.

>>750031334
humans are either Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Neutral by default if they are Npcs that are just the average mob characters. Good and Evil stances require a heroic/villainous ambition most don't posses. Humans are of a fallen nature and condition from a good condition if you think otherwise you are delusional.

>>750003615
because you only want evil races to be good so you can fuck them, eyeballtank

>>750031401
I put it on simpler black and white terms humans are just grey and tainted to either. The point is a demon is black through and through, even if you could taint it to grey it would never fully be someone capable of good.

>>750003615
diapers and dogshit is a millstone around the neck of western role playing games

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>>750031389
As for me, it's Fortress.

>>750003615
For me, it's disregarding all of the subversive deconstruction and just taking the fanatical zealot's bloody crusade entirely at face value.

>>750026776
>Without a strong moral foundation the media will have you believing that pure evil is justified and goodness is a joke.
Basically it leads to leftism

>>750006323
2bf greed has been celebrated in the west since before vidya was a thing

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>>750031031
Unrelated but swarm type characters are a perfect example of something generally considered evil I wish would be applied to more heroic characters.

>>750031765
Because the pro pedophile, pro con man, and pro mass murder side is so morale?