>Lol, Developing game is eas-ACK!Have we gotten past this unintuitive piece of shit language?
>>750191408What do you consider an intuitive language?
>>750191442Rust/Golang
>>750191505
>>750191408you no longer need to learn craft to make videogames a computer will do everything for you while you are kojima.
>>750191542>t.
>>750191883that's not even C++
>>750191408all i need
let me guess... you NEED more?
>>750192683c99, now that's a language
saar we using python and gpt now for best practices
My company (B2B software) is switching from C++ to Java + web, massively accelerated now by AII don't wanna be a webdev bros
>>750191408Just learn Rust
Could never get into coding, do you need to have a mathfag predilection to enjoy/tolerate learning it?
>>750191442claude
>>750192683lemme guess, you need more?
>>750193685only if you want to get into the really academic computer sciency aspects of it. 90% of coding requires basically no math skills at all. 9% require some basic algebra, vectors, matrices, but thats it.
>>750192683Even embedded systems just use web apps nowadays, it's fucked up
>>750193867Why the fuck does computing not teach graph theory more? It's one of those things that's directly relevant to so much of what you're actually doing, even though you don't' technically need it to implement most basic algorithms.
>>750191408Does anyone even know how to code anymore?
>>750194020It does though? I had to take discrete math in my first year (all CS majors do) and the end of that we saw graph theory. Then in data structures and algorithms half the class is graph theory. Next semester I have to take discrete structures and around 30% of that class is graph theory supposedly as well.
>>750194216not everyone gets into the software engineering industry through computer science. This seems to be changing though, many unis are getting their shit together and the industry seems to not just hire anybody who can code a little bit anymore
>>750193685You need mathfag predilection if you're the kind of retard who would take OP seriously and you're unironically thinking about low level graphics programming. If you just want to get games out of the door, you'll do fine knowing basics of trigonometry and algebra and picking up a game engine.
>>750192683Yes. I need destructors.
>>750194020But they dodecision problems are a huge part of CS studies
>>750191408Bros give it to me straight. Is it too late to get into coding -> gamedev now that AI does everything or will do everything in a few years?
>>750193685I mean it really depends on what you're doing. You don't need maths to code, depending on what it is you're coding. If you're making generic software or just importing libraries or whatever, it's more important to be able to organize the project well (software engineering) than having a strong math base (computer science). If you're designing algorithms though, then yes you need math to be able to judge if one algorithm is better than another and under what constraints etc (it's called time complexity analysis).Basically if you chop down programming into two blocks, you have users and designers. The designers that make your, for example, sort() function in that comes with java are more mathematicians than programmers. People that use the functions to do stuff are software developers, you can call them "coders" but even that isn't the best name for it. To me a "coder" is someone who writes code. A 10 year old can write code. It doesn't say anything about their actual capacities. If you can "just" write the code, then let's call you a coder, if you apply mathematical thinking to analyzing the code, we're talking computer science. So no, you don't need math to like coding. In fact, most student in my classes actually hate mathematics despite taking a software engineering / computer science / computer engineering degree.
>>750191408yes, over a decade ago
>>750194736unironically love c#the code masturbation you can do in that language is crazy
>>750194609if professionally? yes, its pretty much over unless you hyper-specializedAs a hobby? Currently the best time to get into it.That being said, I imagine it would be surprisingly hard to learn coding when the bot does 90% for you
>>750191408Thousands have tried to replace C++ and none have succeeded.Bjarne won.
>>750194296Well in the past you needed actual hands behind a keyboard to type out the code and there was a MASSIVE demand for software (software's been the lifeblood of america's economy for like, 40 years at this point), so as long as you knew how to do some basic programming you could get a decent career. This is over now that AI will write the best boilerplate code for you in 10 seconds. I was responding to >why the fuck does computing not teach graph theory anymoreif you meant like, community colleges, they absolutely don't and I don't think they ever have. I did a year at one before going to university to get a CS degree and yeah, there is almost no math in the curriculum. You don't see discrete maths which is the foundation of computing. Instead they make you take a baby version of calculus just to say they have some math on the curriculum. It's a disgrace, but that aside, it's because community colleges train you to be a worker first and foremost. 10 years ago there was a clear pipeline: community college > learn industry tools / practices > internship > job right out of community college if you have a good work ethic and did well in classes. That era died with AI, so honestly they should just shut down these community college programs. I looked at how the curriculum changed at the community college I went to a few months ago and as far as I can tell, they completely shifted into a sort of "we will teach you to be the best vibecoder" curriculum and you have multiple classes on "productive AI use".
>>750194857>I imagine it would be surprisingly hard to learn coding when the bot does 90% for youActually AI is one of the best things ever invented for learning purposes. But you need to use it properly. If you just ask it to write the code for you then obviously you learn nothing, learning isn't even part of the equation. If you ask it specific questions though it's like having a free tutor on demand 24/7. It's just a lot more time efficient than going on stack overflow hunts like it used to be in the past.
>>750191408Just ignore half the features and you’re golden.
>>750195349>It's just a lot more time efficient than going on stack overflow hunts like it used to be in the past.yeah if anything I like the convenience of just not having to interact with that shit of a place anymore.
>>750195349its definitely great if you are already experienced and are developing a deeper understanding of programming, but its poison for anyone brand new. There is a second order effect on doing the menial debugging and research tasks, you subconsciously learn the cost of bad design and short-cuts and develop a sense of 'code-smell' that is only possible through trial and error. Its like taking a math test and having the answer sheet right next to you, available to be consulted at all times. Even if it describes the steps to take, you will just look at the answer and fill it in.At the same time, since the bots do such a good job in general coding, its hard to justify whether the discipline and rigor you develop is really necessary anymore
>>750195726Like with every discipline overridden by something more efficent, only people with true passion will learn it in depth, while the code monkey now having access to LLMs will at least shit out more decent code.If I had to choose a future where code was written by unpassionate people looking for a wage, or unpassionate people looking for a wage forced to use LLMs, I'll always choose the second option.
>>750195726But hold on, it depends on how you use it. I agree that if you are literally brand new, you're might be better off starting traditionally, but if you prompt claude and say "Teach me the basics of programming in (insert language of your choice) for someone who has never coded before. Supply only code for demonstration purposes. Lead all the way to me making my first program.", I haven't tried it but I feel like it'd do a fine job, like on par with something on w3 schools or something.The true value is that you actually get to participate in the process and ask questions in real time, which is where true learning is done. Advanced education used to be a rich person thing because it was understood that to really learn something complex you need to sit down with someone experienced and ask them questions, so obviously you need to pay that person a lot of money. Modern universities stuff hundreds of students in a room and you get almost no interaction with the professor. Even going to office hours, you get like 15 minutes of their time. That's part of the reason that most students resort to just memorizing factoids about the subject to regurgitate them on the test. This is just a logistical outcome of having so many people going to universities, but AI solves that now. I think at this point, in my math/cs bachelors, I've learned more from AI than my classes. I'm not a genius but I have around a 80% average so it works on some level. I mean for my digital systems class last semester, I asked a question during a lecture and the prof told me "oh set up the truth table in this specific way then just look for a pattern" and when I asked what the pattern was he couldn't answer. I asked chatGPT and it explained it to me extremely succinctly. I went to his office hours, showed him the process to see if it was correct and he went "huh. that's pretty clever. yes that's better than what I do". It was a chatgpt answer and this guy has a PHD in computer engineering, so...
>>750196549you're not wrong, but that highly depends on the individual. There are very few people with both the drive and constitution to understand anything beyond the surface level. The overwhelming, vast majority of people are not interested in the deeper "why" of things, they are just content with "Does this tick the box". As such, this puts massive evolutionary pressure to produce more of these types of people, which is one of the multitude of reasons why modern education is such a sham compared to its historical incantation.Commerical LLMs also do not have an incentive to make you a better programmer. They only have the incentive to make you a better 'prompter', so it is a mistake to rely on them too heavily.
use his language, chuds
>>750196549>Teach me the basics of programming in (insert language of your choice) for someone who has never coded before. Supply only code for demonstration purposes. Lead all the way to me making my first program.I've been lurking this thread because I want to start learning how to program and I'm going to try this first before going to old tutorials or online courses. Cheers anon
>>750191408Why do c and c++ keep filtering brown people? There are like a million tutorials out there, plus AI
>>750191505rust is alien as fuck, every other language I can tell whats going on but not rust
>>750191505Go is great but not for gamedevRust is horrible abomination that only LLMs can code in
>>750198532it's the borrow checker, everything else about rust is pretty normal
>>750193823Lemme guess, you need more?
>>750193823> x86-64good luck porting it to arm
>>750191408Unity has C# natively.Pretty much any game engine can use any language if you are willing to dig a plugin for that.And if that's still too hard, guess you can just ask grok to translate for you.
>>750191408alt-langs are incredibly popular these days, take your pick
>>750195349This has been my approach.I never had any formal programming experience, self-taught myself over the past 15+ years or so, but i often find there are some major gaps in my knowledge.Using AI to ask questions about some kind of technique and then asking it for examples I've found it way more useful than just making it write the code for me.I enjoy programming, but it's just very helpful to have something you can instantly ask questions about something you're not too sure about. Questions that can actually have relevant and quick answers instead of waiting for some smarmy cunt telling me that the question has already been answered or giving me a response that doesn't even solve my issue.Sure it makes mistakes and hallucinates a ton, but that's not a massive concern when you're not just blindly trusting whatever it spits out.
>>750194381why?RAII is a shit pattern that makes your code slow.
>>750193685Programming is more about language than math, in terms of learning, interfacing and using it. If you don't enjoy language, you probably won't enjoy programming.
>>750194736I've been meaning to take the plunge and try to learn C# lately, but I'm nervous.
>>750193685I love coding and I hate math.
>>750193823I self taught coding with Asmx86.Not by choice, I just wanted to make fucking vidya and the Assembly book was the only fucking one that had a section about using interrupts to draw pixels on the fucking screen or game keyboard inputs. Everything other fucking "learn to code" book in the library was 500 pages of data structure and the only output ever used was printf or some variant.
>>750199936Just do it
>>750191408Learn C first.Then c++ is just a more complicated version.Take the time to learn the fundamentals.Knowledge questions can also very well be answered by a free instant model (like chatgpt, grok, etc).
>>750199819Skill issue. RAII only makes your code slow if you organize your lifetimes wrong. It's the same as the data-oriented design principles gamedevs talk about. Custom smart-pointers into pools are extremely useful for implementing really fast allocation and deallocation models, for example
>>750200521>Custom smart-pointers into pools are extremely useful for implementing really fast allocation and deallocation models, for examplejust use a bump allocator, or better yet, use a language with an actual GC, instead of implementing an ad-hoc one."smart" pointers are just reference counting.reference counting is just garbage collection.just garbage collection.
>>750191442English, which is the program language I use when leveraging Claude and me other agents.
>>750191408>talking english is unintuitive
>>750191442hindi, bengali and tamil
>>750191408bro, we've gotten past the need to even learn to code
>>750200797>Stop threads randomly to scan the entire stack, thrashing all the cpu caches, to get that a reference was dropped 425 seconds ago>Introduce random latencies everywhere, large resource hog randomly.>Non-deterministic, it runs when it wants to runvs>when you drop the reference free the memoryJavatards are retarded, and there is nothing more retarded than their dicksucking of the worst idea in computer science.
>>750201514I'm so tired of """Programmers""" who think the totality of Garbage Collection is Stop The World Boehm trash from the 90s.
garbage collection is fine if you're happy with your program using 2-3x the ram for amortisation and randomly pausing for a few msi.e. most apps but definitely not video games
>>750201639You do realize that even the smart ones are basically doing this right? If you want determinism and low-latency you don't use garbage collectors in any form. >>750200797It's a skill issue because thinking smart-pointers == standard shared_ptr just tells everyone you don't actually know anything about doing this stuff. It's why people like casey muratori and jon blow come across as total hacks to anyone that does this stuff. When you write the same systems in C you end up reimplementing shit versions of the exact same allocation & clean-up schemes. Even byte-based bump allocators are better with RAII. Even SoA is better.
>>750202201Anon, i hope you realize modern AAA games all have ad-hoc garbage collection because they use C++.
>>750191505>Rust>intuitivelmao easy to spot people who've never had to deal with that piece of shit
https://store.steampowered.com/app/4260720/EmuDevz/thoughts on games like this?
use C
>>750203594idk but if it teaches me how to make something im game
>>750202456>It's a skill issue because thinking smart-pointers == standard shared_ptr just tells everyone you don't actually know anything about doing this stuff.NTA and I've been learning C/C++ but I am still new. So which ones are supposed to be used? What's the best approach to memory management then?
>>750191408git gud noob, you are responsible for the memory you use. Devs with true understanding of C++ make the fastest/reliable programs.
>>750194736my first programming language thanks to Unityso comfy
>>750205271sheeplushplush is faaaaast
>>750205271Devs with true understanding of C++ make alternatives to it
How do you get into a good rhythm with practicing, the last time i felt a drive was in uni, now I'm rusty as fuck with java and C#
>>750199721You're actually in great position to answer a question I've been wondering about for a while. I'm getting a formal education, bachelors in joint math/cs, so I'm kinda curious what programming is like for someone self-taught. Do you know about time complexities and how to find them? Or is it a general idea of "nested loops bad, linear can be tolerable, splitting in halves best" ? I guess what I'm trying to find out is how much do the CS concepts trickle down through raw experience. Do you branch off into other programming paradigms or stick to OOP generally? Understand why/how binary search trees work etc.
>>750191442jai.
>>750208438imo learning actual languages is becoming less and less useful, any syntax question you may have an AI will figure out for you
>>750191442Lisp, APL
>>750191442Lean
>>750191505low iq alert
>>750195452/theadwhy is this thread dragging unnecessarily? I made my engine years ago without touching reflection or anything newer than 17.
>>750208534Doesn't seem that much different from searching github for code to copy paste
>>750198416back to /pol
>>750208191And yet every alternative to C++ has flopped.
>>750209298technically not, considering the overwhelming success of r***.But stopping the production of new C++ code being written was never gonna happen, because the industry doesn't just stop and rewrite everything on the spot.But what is happening is new C++ code is slowing down, because people are picking 1 of 100 newer options. And making your own option is more popular than ever.
I think Java wasn't that bad
>>750208457Hard to say, but I have often found myself doing things without actually knowing what the proper terminology actually is, just because I felt it made sense.For the longest time I didn't actually know what a finite state machine actually was, kept hearing the term, but later realised it was similar to something i had implemented into some of my own programs.I have sometimes experimented with different paradigms, like I might read an article or watch a video about something, and just play around with it, but I just find myself going back to a procedural/imperative pattern (again I didn't really understand the terminology for a long time).I do use OOP a bit, but I don't really bother with encapsulation and all that; just using a C struct and a bunch of functions that work on that struct.But yeah, usually it's just a case of watching a video or reading some article about why x is bad, try using y instead and then I'll experiment and try and understand it myself.
>>750211330It's fine for what it is. I think 8 was probably the peak, it's retardedly overcomplicated now.
>>750211330java is great, ignore the cnilesthat goes for microsoft delphi too
>uh it's not automated garbage collection it's a "smart pointer"utter state of seppleniggers
>>750208534if you don't know the language you don't know what you don't know. there will be powerful features that you never touch.
>>750213060wait till you try to tell rustoids they're using garbage collection too
>>750191408the language doesn't matter very much. the ecosystem does. libraries like meshoptimizer, dear_imgui, jolt (though box3d exists and is c, now), recast, are all c++. so it's pretty hard to avoid.
