2.1 is a flop

>>572152770
You mean 2.10000000003?

wube is nigger

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today I learned that shoving everything into chests and praying you finish the game before they fill isn't the way to go

>>572151301
This would actually work for Tiber. All of its recipes work off-world, and the main benefit is just bringing Tiberium with you to seed other planets with.

>>572156545
nvm I stopped reading after the science pack. That's pretty dumb then, just make it a custom scenario not a planet mod.

>>572156542
pathetic, i had like 300k gears stockpiled in my first spage victory clocking in at 150 hours, and a whole lot more of the other things too. simply place more chests. (or at least void those gears they're like the easiest things to void cmon, ice cubes and solid fuel too)

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>>572156829
I feel like that's soulless so I just put basic trash recycling sorting
I even invented a mini sushi belt out of first principles for the low density structures

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Check out my crude oil>pure hydrogen converter (with useful byproducts)
One step closer to 0 pollution

>>572159414
Seems a bit early, haven't you learned from history? You have to shit up the world in order to grow your industry, then go back and try to fix your mess. Or better, pretend that there is no mess.

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>wube, for no fucking reason at all, killed fucking fulgora

>>572126958
>how the fuck do i make an ssto
There is a somewhat narrow fuel:power band and it's easy to try to solve failures by slapping more engines or fuel on and have it not work out. Just gotta get a feel for it. You will also need a bit of cleverness with the limited building tools to get your fuel balanced so to that the center of mass doesn't move as either fuel drains. Lastly there's the usual aerodynamic design questions. I settled on having wings set sightly high for better stability and with a small angle of attack - you ideally want them to make level flight at your insertion altitude so you can hold steady and burn up to 1500+m/s without losses before switching over to rockets.

If you need a crutch to practice the flight while working out the design, you can cheat the single stage part by adding a rocket assisted take off, though you might have as much trouble getting them mounted without creating rotation or shearing.

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I have come to a couple of conclusions on the weird pricing
1. For whatever reason, gold rods are SUPPOSED to be more expensive. I assume there's some real-world thing the dev decided this based on, because...
2. Gold threaded rods are SUPPOSED to be shit - the actual model for them has broken threads and chips in the rod. I'm assuming the joke is that you shouldn't be making screw threads out of gold.
The other metals follow the same price scheme as the iron. I haven't tried the new wire coils yet, I don't know if they're more or less efficient for price

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Just unlocked construction robots for my brand new 2.1 save.

(Moving my post to the new thread)
>>572151867
>You will need to make a copy of every single production line for each quality tier to do that.
First of all i should say that while i hate the idea of voiding items and that Spage is obviously designed around it, doing so is a given in order to play Spage, you will need to void shit wether you want to or not even when not dealing with quality.
So the "emergency pressure release" is not some extra complication but a necessity.

>Building parallel lines for each quality level, for every recipe in the game
I didn't want to be pedantic and say you didn't think about it enough but that seems to be the case for the majority of the playerbase if upcycling loops are so popular.
There's a planet that taught us how to work with multiple items on the same belt, and another that taught us how to keep our belts always flowing. Wube added a feature that lets us read entire belts, then added another that multiplies the capacity of belts with 0 design overhead. They even let us set filters via wire, isn't that crazy?
I don't think that complexity you're talking about is nearly as big as it seems.

>Making loops over and over is tedious and shit though
They're also grossly inefficient, the easiest solution for players, the worst possible for their factories. And those things that you said also exactly why i tried solving around progressive upcycling, i did it a bit already, but i can't play Factorio a lot right now, my next serious playthrough is going to be tackling that though.

>>572133191
>>572164910
There is also a case to be had if it is worth your time making a coal and sulfur platform for gleba

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hey /egg/men how's my gold solution looking?

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>>572159414
You'd get better results just giving your dudes some medpacks. T1 is enough for 99% of the game as long as you don't explore too many islands. Also blue trucks at year 481 and with hydrogen power on your mind is beyond cursed.

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>>572171294
It's my first playthru so I'm just fumbling about and letting the years go by, I wanted to make hydrogen like this so that I could power yellow trucks with it, they are getting slowly replaced now
Powergen with hydrogen is not an option cause I only make enough surplus for 1 boiler and I already have 3 burning coal
Once I get the bigger turbines I'll upgrade the coal and add exhaust filtration for no pollution instead of tripling hydrogen

Pyanodon isn't even hard, it's just time-consuming
There, I said it, sue me

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>>572173453
Stacker towers are great if you want to dump materials, strongly recommended
Watch for maintenance if you want a lot of them though, they are pretty expensive

>>572173453
Exhaust filtration is a big upgrade because it not only scrubs extra pollution but gives you a nice source of sulfur AND steam that you can use for water distillation. I can't tell if you're burning trash yet but you can scrub that,Co2 from oil production, and smelters to get a ton of low pressure steam that you can dump into distillers for a whole bunch of water. The amount can of course vary depending on how active your buildings are but it can save you a shitload of coal or allow you to use your underground water as a backup instead of the primary.

>>572174009
i think there's genuine difficulty before you get circuits online and a couple places where you have to puzzle out and properly prio a longer chain (oilsands processing, for instance)
definitely a lot of the difficulty is just scope and keeping your logistics functioning
and not running out of UPS

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Is it as good as it seems?
I'm in the mood for an autistic space game

>>572174682
Yes, design of spacecraft and it's elements is just as autistic as it seems
AI is quite lacking, especially for missiles though

>>572174682
Sequel never ever

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I've decided to play factorio a new way in 2.1

no removing old builds until it is totally replaced, so no moving quick and dirty yellow and red belt automation until im making blue belts at scale.

im also pretending to be a retard and trying to avoid any forethought for things like later routing, and any time i CAN find a nice parasitic build location (like the bot frame automation) i have to use it.

so far my only REAL regret is my choice in starting the early science RIGHT next to my power, and not making more red circuits so i woulcn't have space for those engines, because now i have too few of both, and need to reroute green circuits through my original water setup, which im deciding is part of my original power setup, because otherwise it would be too simple to move it.

im having a LOT of fun doing spaghetti routing, and i think my military science ammo build is HILARIOUS, because i would have otherwise needed to move the rai like, 1 square down.

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>>572179703
>no removing old builds until it is totally replaced
Spaghetti is the true way to play, I do the same. One trick I like to do is build a few too many buildings than I need for my production lines, that way I have a little overhead. Then later, once I've run out of room for routing belts, I can delete a couple machines to fit even more bullshit without ruining the build.

>>572174682
Module design is very fun. Ship navigation UI is dogshit. Projected trajectory is fucked if you're moving too fast (>50-100km/s don't remember exactly). Still one of my favourite games.

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>>572179703
this is how i play the game normally

>can't automatically request material for construction from other platforms
brother, what
what is even the point of this feature, then

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>>572174682
you can make a cannon that hurls a 20 kt nuke at velocities exceeding 2 km/s every 200 ms (300 fat men per minute)

>>572183602
The auto construction requests lock to requesting from planets? That doesn't seem like a big deal.

Do the construction requests not generate any circuit signal though? On planets you can just add everything within a logistics network to the construction requests to generate a signal of everything that is currently in deficit. Is that not possible on a platform?

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>>572187497

>>572187872
>Do the construction requests not generate any circuit signal though?
nope

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>this breaks the brain of the average Wube employee
https://en.cppreference.com/cpp/numeric/ratio/ratio_multiply

>>572188381
Well, whatever. Just means you need a platform-building planet. Doesn't mean that having platform-to-platform is worthless.

Just having buffer platforms to transfer a planet's products means that there's no wait time for loading the rockets in your interplanetary logistics. You can even have platforms parked and ready to start a delivery alongside the hub platforms so whenever a request comes from any planet it is immediately delivered.

I suppose most important thing here and with the setting research by circuit condition is the efficiency of Gleba science packs. You immediately shoot up the science, it is immediately delivered, the science is immediately changed to Gleba research whenever a delivery is made and changed back after. That's much, much more efficient than what you could muster easily before.

>>572182371
>bots
try again

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>>572189902

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wait a minute this is a fucked up recipe

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>existential crisis over symmetrical pole placement in even-numbered assembly lanes
>again
some things never change

>>572194797
just fill every empty spot with pole

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okay but should poles be above or below inserters?

how is U.V.S. Nirmana? Zachtronics was always hit or miss and idk if i trust the new studio

>>572194797
on the far side of the 2 poles, since the furnace doesn't need power.

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>>572196529
I have settled for this, which looks clean enough for now

>>572160883
Well, fix it.

Quality is lame and should be changed radically. Space casinos demonstrated there is appetite for upgrades items but no appetite for Wubes masochistic intended solutions to quality.

>>572201905
Quality modules are just uninteresting as a design problem. You do the same thing every time. You just make another line of assemblers and filter the results and make another line of assemblers and filter the results and make another line of assemblers and filter the results. And then on top of that the numbers on quality modules were obviously far too low. If the optimal strategy is just to afk for a few hours then it's not a well-designed system.

In mods there's systems like in an angelbob game order to obtain a greater productivity from your ores or to change the distribution of your resources you can sort the ore and crush the ore and treat the ore and smelt and cast the plates and such. So you can choose to either do the inefficient simple recipe or the much more complicated process for a greater return, which involves multiple different design challenges with a bunch of different buildings. Quality should be like that. Where if you want the high quality, better performing items you just need to have a massively more complicated factory structure, rather than just have this same line of assemblers 5 times in a row and wait for 10 hours.

>>572196498
it sucks in my opinion
worst Zach game for sure

>>572201905
>Space casinos demonstrated there is appetite
space casinos demonstrated people are lazy

>>572204498
And trying to "correct" that is completely missing the point of game design.

>>572204743
>stop fixing exploits
re enable them with mods and be ashamed chud

>>572204840
Pretending to missunderstand what I said isn't a an argument.

>>572204498
>Lazy
>Im a video game supposed to be for entertainment/fun

It proves quality isn't fun. Quality is monotonous. This anon describes it well:
>>572203673

I like Factorio.

>>572152770
I don't think flop means what you think it means.

>>572160883
Wait, what? Why? What happened? I just came up for air from sillytavern and saw 2.1 happened kinda.

>>572212374
I'm gonna guess it's crying about nerfs to concrete and steel chest recycling?

>>572182751
It's okay. It's a fine way to play Factorio. Have fun. Roll with it. Make a mess.

>>572212417
Nigger nothing changed about steel chests

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I limped my way to Aquilo and don't feel like continuing. Here are my various Spaghetti-themed space platform names:
>Spaghetti Factory: first space platform; makes science. An attempt to fly it went poorly
>Flying Spaghetti Monster: an adequate transport vessel
>Spaghetti Bridge: an attempt to make a minimal space ship. Hampered by buggy circuits, poor-quality solar panels, and the poor sunlight further out
>Spaghetti Code: Gleba. Really should have been named "Spaghetti Squash".
>Mussolini: runs about the inner system keeping everything stocked up.
>Glass Noodle: (running at the limit of my powers here) drops ice onto Fulgora. Slowly falling to pieces.

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>>572161468
Good news! The coils are made with 4 rods and do increase the value. Not only that, but the coilers work at least the same speed the extruders do, so even if they can't handle more than one extruder they AT MINIMUM reduce the item count by 75%.

>>572203673
>So you can choose to either do the inefficient simple recipe or the much more complicated process for a greater return, which involves multiple different design challenges with a bunch of different buildings. Quality should be like that
It is like that. There's the inefficient, simple, brute force option of grinding items into quality items, and there's the complicated process for greater return, where you can get almost 100% material efficiency if you design it well and reduce recycling to a minimum.
I swear it's that IQ graph where midwits hate quality and everyone else likes it

>>572219137
Describe the process in which post-2.1 I can get 100% material efficiency legendary items as you are claiming.

You now remember Starbase

>>572219781
LDS shuffle

>>572219781
>produce whatever you would be producing but with quality modules
>balance quality item excess by either using them for science or switching production over to less or non quality moduled machines
No recycling means 100% efficiency. I really think the recycler existing is what mindfucked people into not exploring alternative processes.

>>572220084
So you can make steel and copper with an arguable exploit, yes. But that isn't a more complicated or interesting solution.

>>572220208
Describe these alternative processes which result in "almost 100% material efficiency".

>>572220339
Please don't repeat yourself in your posts next time, chatgpt

>>572220792
So you are admitting that you can't justify the things that you claimed? And you are calling other people 'midwits'. I see.

>>572221257
Midwits can usually at least read the post they're replying to. I'm calling you a bot.

>>572164787
>not some extra complication but a necessity
Yeah, that is exactly my point, there are no real, practical alternative options in 2.1. 2.0 at least had the "space casinos" which were somewhat different and didn't use recycling to make stuff (though the reprocessing recipe they use was still lossy), but that's nuked in 2.1 and the quality system is left even shallower, when it was tacked-on and not properly integrated to begin with, even in 2.0.
>that seems to be the case for the majority of the playerbase if upcycling loops are so popular
What do you even mean? A quality loop at its most simple is 5 production buildings + some recyclers, not a clone of your entire production line. Also none of the extra shit you mention is even necessary for a basic upcycling loop, you can tweak it and so on however you want, but something for basic functionality is very, very simple and doesn't require anything fancy.
>the worst possible for their factories
You might say so at first glance but any alternative solution is going to be significantly more complicated since the lacking and basic implementation of the quality system is going to fight you every step of the way, while the loop is very simple, it's self-contained, never risks locking up the rest of your factory no matter what and most importantly it can very easily scale up as much as you want.

In practice what I expect in 2.1, for efficiency, is that you will rely on LDS shuffle and blue chip cycling for everything you can possibly get from those. LDS shuffle directly provides you with copper and steel, iron plates you can get from further recycling starting from legendary blue chips. You have infinite LDS prod and blue chip prod research, so if you push those these methods will eventually become more efficient than anything else. You will then have regular loops for other things which cannot be obtained this way, like materials particular to various planets and a few other things.

>>572203673
>sort the ore and crush the ore and treat the ore and smelt and cast the plates and such
So then quality is just a preprocessing step before your base?
Instead of going to smelters you first go to processing, then to smelters?
So you turn 10 ore into 1 quality plate?

How is that different than what we got?

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>>572219797

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now I am become coom
gooner of planets

>>572203673
I agree with where you're coming from but replacing quality with different recipes for higher tier buildings will hyperbloat the game in a way which really doesn't belong in vanilla, I don't think. We don't need 5 different recipes for the 5 tiers quality provides, for every single thing quality can be applied to. Mods can hyperbloat themselves with endless tiers and the associated huge numbers of intermediates because whoever plays those mods gets into them for that kind of reason in particular, but it's not something for vanilla.

The fundamental idea of quality, namely that you can produce higher item tiers via some sort of iterative improvement process and increased resource expenditure, is solid I think, but the implementation is crap since it doesn't mesh with the rest of the game at all. The implementation needs improving (which it will never get).

>How 2 fix quality
Crafts now give base quality regardless of quality of components.
You WILL go through the recycling casino.

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>>572218230
Sad news! Four threaded rods are still more profitable. At least, for non-gold metals.
Really this is only a problem during setup, since in the end you're going to have far more space available than your build could take up with the limited resource nodes a map will have.

Why do bots pull from storage chests before provider chests? I don't get the reasoning.

>>572226721
if its sitting in storage, it's assumed it made it's way there because you have a lot of that item, so it's trying to free up storage before it takes from provider chests where its likely being actively made.
if you want to you can reframe the bot mall or whatever with buffer chests, and make sure requesters and such are set to take from buffer chests so you can have a stockpile in storage as well.

>>572226960
>before it takes from provider chests where its likely being actively made
So what's the usual approach if you want to actively fill up the spare storage capacity? A passive chest for normal production, and then a dump active provider chest for overflow? For each assembler/set of assemblers?

>>572226721
You have 10 reactors you don't need sitting in a storage chest. You also have a reactor making machine configured to stop when there's less than 5 reactors in the provider chest it ejaculates into. If you need more reactors built, robutts will take them from the storage chest first, and the machine won't have to make more because there's already more than enough.

>>572226721
Storage is the final destination for items not needed elsewhere. Bots pull from storage in order to avoid storage being all filled up. Provider chests are supposed to be full with whatever items they're holding and presumably if they're emptied then they're going to be filled up again by the machines making stuff to put in there in the first place, so emptying those is the lowest priority.

>>572226721
taking products out of storage gives more room for other products. it also helps if say, you clear a bunch of rocks and suddenly have 50 spare stacks of stone and coal

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Surely you don't have any GAY curved rail stations in your factory right /egg/?

>>572228987
They've got curved stations. Curved. Stations.

>>572226721
Same reason you get food from the fridge rather than having to go grocery shopping every time you're hungry. Your fridge is a storage chest, while the grocery store is a passive provider chest. Active providers are like having take-out meals thrown through your window whether you're hungry or not.

>>572230723
What about buffers?

>>572227478
>want to actively fill up the spare storage capacity?
use case being clogging everything up and robot deconstruction becoming inoperable?

>>572232665
buffers are food prepared and kept on hotplates in the kitchen

>>572232754
Then shouldn't you take those first? Before the ones in the fridge.

>>572232861
yes. you do. buffers come first, then storage, then passive. requester chests need a box ticked to take from buffers though, but they'll prioritize taking from buffers if it is ticked. construction it's always buffers first.

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>>572219797
WHAT DID YOU DO

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Fuck man. I want to get back into Factorio but I forgot what I was doing with my factory. I turned the game on, looked at some of my circuit setups and nearly threw up because I forgot what it all was trying to do. So I am stuck trying to parse through dogshit circuits that I made when mentally unwell.

>>572232753
No, buildup storage of ingredients for future quality casino when legendary is unlocked.
Overflow is easily avoided by just sending what's in storage to the radar network, and factory reads off the radar network for what's in excess and stops production.

>>572238639
Use active provider chests to stuff your storage

I think I'm going to do a base game + quality run without the recyclers mod, just to prove the midwits wrong that it can't be done.

>>572238743
Yeah that's what I'm doing already. It might be a bit insane but what's most productive for qualityslop is placing quality modules in as many assemblers as possible, but that + other possible byproducts makes passive provider chests a subpar solution for the bullshit I'm trying to do, and not strictly necessary before either anyways. That's why I was asking initially, but the explanations given thus far make sense.

>>572236957
I hope this learns you good to write comments on all your combinators

>>572239219
A nice trick I use is buffer chests with trash unrequested selected. Make it request like one stack of the item the assembler is putting into it, and it will automatically filter out all the other quality items into the logistic network.

>>572239372
Yeah that's what I did for some of them. In any case not a passive provider. There's some passives left where it doesn't hurt, but none where it's strictly necessary for me so idk whatever.

>>572238981
it's absolutely possible, people have done it, it's just boring, uninteresting, and extremely suboptimal in pretty much all aspects.

Does anybody know the ideal throughput for the PLS in DSP?

>>572242284
Too many variables. Belt stacking and cargo ship size+speed researches, plus shipping distance

>>572242612
I said ideal you autistic useless faggot

>>572243120
infinite

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YE BB FUK UR SPooN

Did the minimum researches + bullet damage/speed level 2, so no black science. Designed everything to make/eat 1 science/second.

Did you know, 1 purple science/second is 25/3 = 8.3333 steel/second = 41.666 iron/second? Yeah, it turns out you can't fucking make 1 purple science/second off of two yellow belts of iron. As a result, I either needed to build .5 sci/second or tap more ore patches, either one, but this base was far larger than it needed to be for no benefit.

I also considered making a mall, and then did not do that, so everything was handcrafted + zero bots. At best, I had gears, ammo, and belts in boxes.

I exterminated all the nests within the pollution about an hour or two in, but then did not attempt to kill the larger nests further out, so I was constantly paying for ammo. That's about 6 iron/second for the full 8 hours, and the ammo chest was generally never full. Maybe I should have sacrificed a few stacks of turrets to clear out more nests.

>>572243219
Woah

>>572244005
>+ zero bots
that was your main problem really. if you rush bots in an hour or two you can just keep copy pasting furnace stacks and intermediate production and mines to support it until you've won, and it goes very very quickly. and, while the bots are doing their thing you can run around and clear nests, which would solve that other problem of needing to pay for ammo.
congrats though, got it and it wasnt even close! there is no spoon is a really fun cheevo without spage.

How crutchy is using logistics bots in factory? I hear it can really warp your gameplay and almost solve everything for you. How important are they for worlds other than nauvis?

>>572246725
You can beat the whole game using bots instead of belts. They just add more power usage, and don't work at massive scales because recharging ports are limited.

>>572246725
convenient but not necessary. i wouldn't even say they're all that crutchy, if you way overuse them you're going to suffer a lot more than if you just did normal belt routing. it's common to use them for delivering materials to a mall in the mid to late game, but you could also thereotically divert your main belts of intermediates to your early game belt mall and keep growing it no bots needed. but for some things it's really just more elegant to bot them in.
on other planets when used in moderation they can make gleba easier, and when used in excess make you have a worse time on gleba. stuff like taking seeds back to agriculture towers using a few roboports and bots rather than running another 500+ long belt line just makes more sense when you're just there for a trickle of the science. if you completely replace belts with bots in the main spoilage process it's a little excessive, but using them to help clear out spoilage in tight spaces seems totally fine.
on fulgora a mostly belt based base is harder to setup than just letting bots do everything, but there's nothing wrong with having bots supplement things and only using belts for the high quantity resources and such. space is a resource on fulgora, too.

>>572224108
>The fundamental idea of quality
>item tiers
>is solid
Solid Shit. An item is that item and no other item. That's what feels good. Fucking bloat tiers.

>>572247929
As far as gleba goes, is the only worthwhile thing from gleba the science? I just landed on it and I actually like the planet and wanted to really develop it but it seems... pointless I guess. Maybe. I don't know yet. I am still trying to master the iron and copper bacteria.

>>572248778
carbon fiber is very important and you can only produce it there, and along with that stack inserters are very important. i've never bothered doing the copper and iron bacteria thing i always saw it as a massive waste of time and just imported everything non-glebalike to gleba, but making your own blue chips and even lds on the planet to simplify logistics could be a fun challenge. just important to remember the more stuff you do on gleba the more you're likely to attract attacks, just doing the bare minimum will almost never bring and striders in.

>>572224108
The very idea of the "assembly line" was to reduce quality variance as much as possible. By having each production step be made by a specialist, instead of each man making doing every step of the process.
There should be no quality variance in a factory line's output.

>>572249661
And Bioflux, later on. It does have amazing recipes for plastic and rocket fuel, but it's not like you'll ever be short on crude oil.

>>572249886
If you want to go by real-world logic, there's an inverse mod where every machine has a chance to produce worse, sub-common quality output. And quality modules only reduce this chance.

>>572250559
>Legendary is actually the baseline things should be
>all lower quality levels are just shitty because you are making it all with ghetto equipment
You know what, this just changed my mind on quality lmao

Instead of pump animations they should have casualized us a way to stop pumps from endlessly drawing from the wagons if the fluid is in use.

>>572250559
>real-world
>chance
No. Wear & tear.
When worn out EVERY product will get the same damage.

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Feels like I've already solved Rubia's gimmick, now just gotta keep adding stuff to the bus and have all the assemblers input from left and output right.

>>572248227
I disagree completely, but fortunately for you even your autism is accommodated and you can turn off quality entirely. Hell you were always free to not use it at all, so there's no need to seethe and froth at the mouth about it.

>>572249886
This is a video game, its mechanics should be designed around being pleasant to play, and they are for the most part (though the current quality mechanics in particular, not so much), not around irrelevant historical accuracy that has literally nothing to do with it. Factorio isn't historical reenactment, nor is it intended to be realistic.

>>572243219
So you're telling me nobody has ever done the math?

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>>572251035

>>572250959
It simulates production defects. Every assembling line has some fault %, products that don't make it past QA and are either thrown out, recycled, or sold in bulk for a lower price.

>>572251298
no i'm telling you that the ideal throughput on any given transportation tool is infinite
which should be obvious

>>572251309
Yes, yes, keep on seething while yelling into the void because your mental illness compels you to. Reality will surely change.

>>572251442
How couldn it be infinite? Between two PLS that are as close together as possible, you still have a limited number of drones that they can both use.

>>572251368
Say, how many % of your assembler's products pass QC to Legendary?

>>572251708
ideally, it'd be infinite

"in an ideal world where friction doesn't exist..."

>>572251632
Into the void of (You) indeed.

>>572252414
>It's ideal if you ignore the constraints of the method
?????????????????
Do you know what the word ideal means?

>>572252889
yeah
that's what ideal means
without the condemning flaws inherent to reality
ideal circles do not exist
neither do ideal PLSs

>>572252889
Ask for the maximum throughput next time

Started playing for the first time. Can I get bricked by ignoring biters' nests? For now regular turrets with red ammo are enough and I have some higher tier turrets being researched.

>>572253458
Okay what's the maxmim throughput between two PLS?

>>572253407
kill yourself

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>>572253790

>>572254880
you're the autist troon lol

>>572253458
Does that actually help? Still depends on distance and how many infinite upgrades you've done.

>>572256781
It should be a simple formula, but apparently nobody has bothered to figure it out.

>>572253541
flamethrower turrets and a wall will last you forever. flamethrower turrets, a wall, and bots with repair packs and spare walls will you last you forever and a day. you hardly even need any flammable damage research. and, flamethrower turrets hardly use up any oil at all.

>>572219137
You are suggesting building an oil-like setup but x100. Defaulting to a simpler, faster to implement system is not an indicator of someone's intelligence but a sane conclusion to a cost/benefit analysis of the whole ordeal. You need an insane (by an average factorio player standards) amount of planning to build this. And modules exist. And modules can't deadlock your factory

>>572253541
Not really but I guess if you're sufficiently bad at the game they can wipe you out, or starve you out of resources if you can't clear some of them out to claim new patches and then run out of the resources you need to clear them out in the first place. Strongly depends on map RNG too.

>>572244005
Grats Anon

>>572234839
>Massively Multiplayer
lol

>>572215950
Is it just factorio fatigue or did you get filtered? There's only a very small amount of shame in getting filtered.

>>572258587
Imagine all those normies bouncing off the game because they built one furnace for each resource and are then mad that it takes forever and how shit the game is? Most people do that but with quality.

Can I get a quick rundown on quality in factorio? I never fuck around with it but I am a shitter. Apparently quality is like "autism maxxing" in factorio. How true is that? Is it really just something for autists or something that everyone should dabble in? I guess everyone is at least a little autistic if they play factorio.

>>572273457
Basically, every step of a chain that has quality modules in it, has a small chance to create an item of higher quality, with 5 levels of that, each level with lower and lower chance.
A quality recipe can only take items of the same quality to craft, but a baseline of higher quality makes getting even higher qualities easier.
The result are machines, vehicles, turrets and modules that are better than their baseline counterparts.
And it's completely optional, there's nothing in the game that forces you to use it.
Tl;dr engaging with it

>>572273869
Shit got cut off, let me continue
Tl;dr engaging with it gets you better shit but hoes mad because it makes them build a bigger factory in their game about building a bigger factory

>>572274070
>>572273869
Is there anyway to engage with quality in a regular way I guess? Better turrets and shit does sound cool but I couldn't see myself going fullbore into quality setups. I am actually probably not even in a position to do so. I went to gleba as my first planet and its been hell. So working through that.

>>572273457
it's a neat idea but the implementation kinda blows chunks
making a recycler setup for it is braindead once you reach fulgora
making a '''proper''' quality build that actually upgrades at every step isn't actually hard, aside from balancing, but does take a lot of building the same thing five times
the things that let you circumvent both of the above have been deemed Over Powered by the devs and one's getting removed outright in version 2.1

>>572274804
You either build with quality in mind from the start, even all the way to eventually straight up 5 separate production lines, since epic and legendary qualities are locked behind planets or you just toss quality modules (and NOT use any speed modules, as they lower quality chances) in the final machine only so that every now and then you get something better than average to just toss into your lines and forget about

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>average Wube forum dweller/redditor

>>572273457
If you put quality modules in a machine it has a chance of upgrading the quality of its output. You can also craft items of a particular quality tier directly, but you need to use ingredients of the same quality on the input.

Quality improves most items in ways which would make them more useful at their job. Crafting machines work faster, chests hold more stuff, armor has a larger equipment grid, turrets have longer range and more health and so on.

Because the quality modules have a chance to upgrade the quality of the output even if you're crafting at a higher quality tier, the best way to upgrade to legendary is to craft through the tiers. Start with common and get uncommon, then uncommon to rare, rare to epic and epic to legendary.

The most practical way to make use of this is to use the recycler, which can also take quality modules itself and it breaks down an input item into its ingredients, but only returns 25% of the stuff it actually takes to make the item. You make a loop that crafts the item, then you recycle it and feed the higher-quality output materials into crafting again, rolling for the upgrade chance both in the crafting step and in the recycling step. Obviously since the recycling loses you 75% of the input materials, this is very resource intensive, but it's easy to scale and Space Age has crazy productivity boosts in several places, so it's doable.

In particular the LDS productivity and blue chip productivity can be researched infinitely, so for example you can reach a point where the 25% output from a recycler makes so many chips (due to very high prod, again) that the loop actually breaks even, so at that point you can just keep cycling until you get legendary.

>>572274804
Put some quality modules into your initial iron and copper miners.
Then before it enters into your smelters, have some inserters filtered to pickup quality above white and put it into a box.
That will let you craft tier 2 plates. Use those to make stuff you want and go from there

>>572275017
Well, lets you circumvent it in the far post-game. Where balance shouldn't be a concern anyway.

Always remember: off-by-one errors do not matter at scale, slop goes in, slop comes out.

>>572273457
People seem to be under the assumption that you have to go all in on it or not deal with it at all. Which seems silly. You have bots by the time you might want to be dealing with quality. Dig into it as much or as little as you want. The only thing you can't do is decide "now is the time" and shove quality modules in every machine of your factory. I usually build short little loops taking in NQ items and "law of large numbers"ing the stuff I do want with quality. Power poles, asteroid collectors, assemblers and whatnot. You can start earlier and shove quality modules in your miners and like the other guy said have it pick out quality ore and shove it in a chest for the bots to deal with. Make a small little side chain to work with quality stuff. You don't have to build your entire factory twice. One machine for each material in the chain and let bots move stuff around as it's produced is plenty. Just make little recycle loops, wander off to go shore up your power again and by the time you come back you have a pile of quality stuff to work with.

>>572222023
>and the quality system is left even shallower
It's crazy to say this when the entire point of nuking the casino was that it invalidated every other strategy
>A quality loop
I was talking about the other option, ie progressive upcycling, ie recycle only to make space, and loop back into the main bus, not the input of specific assembler stacks.
>You might say so at first glance but any alternative solution is going to be significantly more complicated
I meant that is ridiculously resource intensive while having (like you mentioned) a very simple design, every cycle voids 3/4 of input resources, while with progressive approach, you'd need to recycle less and less items with each step.
>basic implementation of the quality system is going to fight you every step of the way
I am indeed deeply aware of this issue when i tried to develop the blueprints and solutions for my approach, but i don't think it's that bad an also think progressive upcycling is a more interesting solution, even if it isnt the best.

>is that you will rely on LDS shuffle and blue chip
Recycling LDS and blue chips you mean? That's probably the fastest items but also means you're voiding the most resources, i personally don't think it will be particularly superior to just recycling whatever you want.

>>572291157
>It's crazy to say this when the entire point of nuking the casino was that it invalidated every other strategy
There are no viable "other strategies." The other strategies are spamming more loops, which you already spam on every planet that isn't Nauvis even with the dreaded "space casino" in the game. The "other strategies" are going to be LDS shuffle & blue circuit recycling, nothing else.
>I was talking about the other option, ie progressive upcycling
This is not a real option in the game, sorry to break it to you. It's a schizo dream from somebody who never actually played with the quality system. You shit will lock up from mismatched ratios and fall back to recycling anyway
>That's probably the fastest items but also means you're voiding the most resources
No, you see, you do not know what you're talking about. The productivity limit is 300%. If you craft a blue chip with 300% prod bonus, it means you get 4 blue chips out. You recycle 4 blue chips and you get enough out of the recycler to craft 1 blue chip again. The loop IS NOT LOSSY ANYMORE, IT BREAKS EVEN and you just spin it in a loop and it upgrades. Even before you hit the 300% cap, you lose less and less in the loop with every research level.

LDS also has the same 300% prod limit. Since the Foundry recipe takes molten metals, it also means you do not even need legendary metals at all to make it. Yet when you recycle the legendary LDS, guess what? You get legendary copper, steel and plastic. Again, same 300% productivity limit. The actual solution to quality is to push the prod researches and then use LDS shuffle and blue chip upcycling, which will allow you to get the most commonly used base resources in legendary quality, that you then use to craft up to whatever you want.

In addition to this there will be "standard" loops, most particularly used on other planets for their resources and a few other things.

>>572295445
What exactly is your definition of "viable" if you think that space casinos were the only way while listing off other methods that people commonly use to upcycle their quality? Because the way it sounds to me, that shit is perfectly viable, but you just don't like it.

Furthermore, what exactly is wrong with just using a planet like Fulgora for quality and doing the typical sushi grind for it? It doesn't take much to set that kind of thing up on Fulgora, and most people already do the infinite sushi sludge method for that planet in the first place.

>>572295445
>This is not a real option in the game, sorry to break it to you. It's a schizo dream from somebody who never actually played with the quality system
Now that i think about it, it has probably been done already, it is in fact completely fucking trivial with bot malling, but i want to do it with belts mostly.
>No, you see, you do not know what you're talking about. The productivity limit is 300%.
So you're saying the best solution is one that relies on a bullshit crutch that requires you to essentially finish the game while you wait/upscale for prod research/modules before you even touch quality, i'd really rather not know what weak aura shit you're talking about then.

In the presents of unlimited resources all strats are viable, some are just faster than others.

>>572215950
>drops ice onto Fulgora.
Why
You should be voiding metric tons of ice on Fulgora
Why do you need more fucking Ice

>>572273457

Quality modules slow down production. Productivity modules slow down production, increase pollution, and increase power draw. This is to say, the downside of a quality modules is generally irrelevant and you can just add a second machine if it's such an issue. Note that, as speed modules have negative quality effect, you can't really speed your quality machine back up using speed modules.

You can, hypothetically, use quality modules at every step of production, and so maximize the output quality of materials. However, we must consider a use case.

The first quality module available is Qt1, which gives 1% quality chance. Technically you could put quality modules in every miner, and so every ore would have a 3% chance of being quality, at a cost of miners*3 modules, with a loss in ore mining speed of 85%, so you can produce only 85% the material per second from your ore patches. So, you'll need *1.17 as many miners. Meanwhile, most of your passive ore use is science. red+green science costs 7.5 iron + 2.5 copper. A gun turret costs 40 iron and 10 copper. To get 40 uncommon iron at 3% quality costs 1333.3333 iron. By the time you mine and spend 1333.3333-40 iron, you will have also spent 431.1111 copper, which makes ~12.9 uncommon copper. So, for every 40 uncommon iron ore you make, you'll have made about 12.9 uncommon copper. So, inevitably, if you generate quality material, you will eventually have enough of that material to cause your factory to overfill and stop, and there's nothing you can do to fix this yet other than have more storage. As a result of this process, you also cannot reliably saturate your belts, since you are extracting variable amounts of material.
.

>>572301114

Ok, so, quality miners and quality secondaries are traps because you can't actually control the ratio of material you're using and, particularly once you're using more than two ores, you'll inevitably end up with quality material for which you have no potential use which will, eventually, clog. You can still just put quality on your final product. Assembler 2 has two slots, so that's 2%. If you make 100 turrets, you get 2 uncommon turrets. (Actually it's 1.8 uncommon and .2 rare turrets but I'm simplifying this bit) As you will be making over 100 turrets, this easily makes you a few special long-range turrets. That's nice, because there are "disposable" turrets and "good" turrets now.

What about miners? Well, a miner gives a reduction in the amount of "ground ore" which is used when generating "belt ore", meaning that your ore patch lasts longer. That's really good, but the reality as we've laid it out is that you get 2 quality miners per 100 miners, which means that you would have to make 50* the total miners in order to really benifit from this supposed reduction in the amount of ore used, and stuff many many miners into boxes to rot.

Assemblers seem like a good choice, since you may want a slightly faster assembler in a few rare places in your factory in order to provide better ratios and perhaps feed a machine from only 1 assembler where 2 might have been needed normally. However, if you're going to turn your assemblers into green assembler 3s later, then you'll need ingredients matching the quality level of your assembler 2s, meaning that all your rare and uncommon assembler 2s will be difficult to upgrade, and likely just end up in a box later after all your effort.

>>572301615

For stone and steel furnaces, quality technically can allow for smaller builds, but it's literally easier to just use a predictable 24/48 furnaces to saturate a belt instead of having to carefully add the production of 3 different speeds of furnace, particularly if you've got more than one furnace stack, because the nearby furnace stacks positioning will make it difficult to actually use any tiles you might save using quality furnaces.

So, early-game use cases: 1, and maybe a quality personal gun if you really want, but probably not in both cases since turret creep is strong and requires disposable turrets.

>after-space
Once you have space science, purple science, and t3 assemblers, you can have 4 t2Quality modules. They give 2% quality, so 8% total, which means you can reasonably pay 12.5* the price in order to get 1 quality version of whatever you want. This includes quality modules. A t2 module costs 5 processing units and 4 t1 modules. So, a single assembler full of modules costs 20 processing units and 16 t1 modules. So, to get your first set of 4 uncommon modules costs around (not exactly) 450 processing units and 200 t1 modules, at which point you could have launched 9 rockets instead. Your reward is a total quality% of 10.4%, which is technically an improvement.

Ok so quality-quality is another pointless effort sink, but, what about just stuffing modules into things? Well, purple science makes you create and spend electric furnaces. With this, now 8% of your furnaces will have 1.3* the speed, which is actually good. While there's still no point in using these in furnace stacks, they save space AND power which is the same as space on your space platform. If you're making solar-fields, the same reasoning applies. While a quality solar panel doesn't make a big difference on dirt, it's very good in space.

>>572301942


>after-fulgora
Fulgora gives you the recycler, which means that you can both mulch non-quality material and that you can correct over-production. However, the amount of material you would lose from insisting on quality products is currently not particularly reasonable, and the quality product you want the most is electromagnetic plants, which requires holomium and which are generally expensive buildings currently. So, again, you should just stuff 5 t2Q modules in an electromagnetic plant making electro plants as final products, and so maybe get 1 or 2 quality plants for use someplace.

Later, you might also get a quality foundry the same way, for use in space.

>after-epic
epic quality is unlocked for 5000 agricultural science.
For 1k agri sci you unlock captive biter spawners. For another 1k you unlock biolabs, which half all further research costs. This is the better choice, if you can be bothered.

After that, mandatory research is: carbon fiber for 500, 1k for rocket turrets, 2k for advanced asteroid processing, 3k for aquilo and cryo science. So, unlocking epic quality nearly doubles the amount of science you have to produce at this stage, at which point you would have to actually create whatever epic quality material you want when we haven't even bothered to do the math on rare quality material and you've already got a working factory on every planet. At best, this would give you epic buildings on aquilo, which would mean less ice platforms and less concrete imports. Epic runs at 1.9* while rare runs at *1.6, so rare buildings would still be a competitive choice anyway. Technically, this is a use case, but not a sane one.

>>572296823
>if you think that space casinos were the only way
What are you talking about? I said they were an option in 2.0 and now that the option is removed in 2.1, the system is even shallower and there are even fewer options. I said there are no other practical strategies beyond recycling loops, and the loops you will use the most are LDS shuffle and blue chips because of their prod bonus research. These are still loops, do you understand? It's the same loop design, the only difference is the production machines can have max productivity, but they are not different otherwise.

>what exactly is wrong with just using a planet like Fulgora for quality and doing the typical sushi grind for it?
Nothing wrong with it but this will only give you a trickle. You can set it up in the early game but if your goal is legendary quality, it will be very slow and as such a bad solution compared to others which are much faster and can give you far better throughput of legendary materials.

>>572299661
>it is in fact completely fucking trivial with bot malling
It is not because you will still overflow on certain items while lacking others, which will lead you to recycling anyway. This applies doubly so if you actually USE your quality output for something. You will need more of X than of Y and then your system is unbalanced because you took out the X and it clogs on Y now. I get the feeling you fundamentally do not understand what I'm saying because you've never actually used the quality system.
>So you're saying the best solution is one that relies on a bullshit crutch
Wube's intended game design, isn't the quality system awesome? ;)
>requires you to essentially finish the game
Yes? When exactly do you think you will use and build with legendary quality if not at the end-game? Even the research requires you to set up all planets, legendary quality is end-game, more practically speaking it's something that's post-game if you're actually going to use it in any significant amount.

>>572302524

>after-legend
Legendary unlocks for 5000 cryosci. All mandetory cryosci researches are: 500 for quantum processors 2k for railgun 2k for fusion 2k for shattered planet, so again just unlocking legendary almost doubles your required science. Meanwhile, as the only task left in the game is reaching the solar system edge, all you need is ammo, a rail gun, power, and a wall of normal-quality weapons on your ship. Also propulsion. While quality materials would help, simply trying a few times and adjusting your ship will cost way less time in total, and compressed builds aren't actually the issue at this point. .

>conclusion during "normal" play:
There's really no point in adding an extra 4 belts to every build in your whole factory in order to maximize quality, and definitely no point in making hundreds or thousands of expensive extra modules when you can spend those resources on progress.

Actual ideal experience with quality: slap on exactly 1 or 2 machines for furnaces and, if you're bothering, solar. Everything else is kidding yourself and complicating things for no reason.

>getting silly with it
Once you decide you're gong to spend infinite resources on infinite researches, and you've already unlocked everything relevant in the game, which is everything, you can slowly construct the dumb bullshit singularity.

Tier 3 modules are 4 times more expensive than t2 modules, plus each t3 modules requires a special ingredient from one of the planets. Because of this, and because legendary materials effectively cost more than *6000 normal materials, you should first obtain legendary t2 modules.

As a recycler returns 25% of the uncrafted material of an item given to it, it is ideal to craft that material with the maximum 300% productivity, and so that net 0% of the material is destroyed. This is most easily done in a building with innate productivity, with the maximum module slots, using a recipe that has a productivity research.

>>572305989
Basically, this means you'll want to craft blue circuits in an electromagnetic plant with 5 productivity modules and recycle them in a recycler with 4 quality modules. Nothing else comes close until you have so much lds productivity research that your lds hits 300% productivity in an assembler.

You could use duplicate setups for this, but that's a mistake. If you use 2* the setups, then you also have to make 2* the modules. As such, you'll be using 1 em plant, and a few recyclers, and manually switching the recipe every once in a while so that you can use up the uncommon/rare/epic quality material you've created while hoping to create enough material to upgrade your modules.

Once you have 5 legendary t2prod and 4-12 legendary t2 quality modules, you'll need 4 or 8 legendary superconductors and 4 legendary biter eggs, along with 16-32 spare Lt2Q modules and 16 spare Lt2P modules waiting to be crafted into legendary t3 modules. This is important because, otherwise, your legendary biter egg might spoil, but that also means you can run multiple setups for a bit.

So, after probable days of effort, you finally have 1 setup with only legendary t3 modules, which matters because even under these conditions you're likely paying thousands of normal material in order to get a single legendary material. At this point you can start accelerating and duplicating, as you do not have to put all product back into improving this one setup.

Once you've got spare legendary material, you can recycle your blue circuits into base materials and make a few legendary beacons, which simply give greater output than a regular beacon, meaning more speed from your speed modules, which matters because doubled speed is like doubling the output of modules affected by said speed, meaning you need less modules total.

>>572306153
At this point, speed, efficiency, and productivity operating through legendary beacons on legendary buildings will create output sufficient to fill belts off of very few buildings and/or for very little power used. I'll call this a "buffed (thing)".

Once you feed a buffed large miner into a buffed foundry to feed a few buffed intermediary processors and supply a collection of buffed legendary material grinders, you can very quickly turn massive ore patches into a very small amount of legendary raw material, or a massive spray of science potions, because that's all you could have ever used all this power to make. Stuff a few buffed biochambers on gelba to turn the same amount of fruit into way way more carbon, fill up your legendary mech suit with legendary toolbelts, and pat yourself on the back before never personally picking up another item or moving from wherever your character currently stands while you operate everything remotely.

This is it. This is what you bothered touching quality for after rare furnaces: that one busted thing quality does if you sacrifice 3 days of your life for it after finishing everything else in the game.

On the plus side, it forces you to learn about holomium, eggs, and tungsten, which forces you to understand the first 4 planets of the game much better than you otherwise would. That's the actual good part of this.

Otherwise, quality is an extremely large number of incorrect choices you can make if you don't think it through. It's in the game so that you can make a mistake an slip on it.

Quality is a banana.

>>572303180
No you dumb motherfucker, you said there were no viable solutions. You say it verbatim,
>>572295445
>There are no viable "other strategies."
Right here.

I don't know what "viable" means in the twisted monkey english you speak, but in real human english, it means that it's capable of functioning adequately.

>>572307065
Man you're dumb as a bag of bricks. No viable strategies other than loops, not casinos. You said casinos invalidated every "other strategy." I explained to you all the other strategies are just upcycling loops. Casinos WERE viable alongside loops, but they were removed. So there are only loops now. Stupid motherfucker, I literally spent the same post explaining to you why loops are used, how do you read that and conclude that I think loops are not viable?

I'm done with this shit, if it's anything I learned by posting here over the years is that talking to idiots is a waste of time.

>>572307065
Competitive. He means viable, by way of competitive.

In a competitive field, where an option is chosen based on it's performance per cost, viable options are options which may reasonably be chosen. They are "adequate" as opposed to "insufficient" or "not good enough".

Technically, everything in the world is a hammer, but hammers with a reasonable grip and a hard striking surface are "viable" in terms of what one might use out of desperation. Yet, they are not "viable" in terms of what might be sold in a store as a hammer.

Thus, because this is how words work, the context of the statement gives it part of its meaning.

context

>>572307976
Yeah, this is exactly it. In a game like Factorio you can concoct any number of ways to build square wheels for yourself that struggle to work very poorly, if at all, but effective and competitive solutions to various problems aren't necessarily quite so varied.

>>572306789
>Quality is a banana.
Bananana peel. Also, i agree.

"Quality" modules are a design choice where all the good parts of the banananana got scooped out. Thus what you're left with is only an inedible cellulose casing that can only hurt you if you try to step on it the wrong way... And even when you step on the bananananana peel in a way that avoids hurting yourself, all you've done is step on the refuse of something that could've been tasty.

> Why the fuck would you step on a banananananana peel?
"Because it's there, i guess, i dunno... Lmao."

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I am vomit.

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I am at peace.

>>572312386
>>572312595
Now put down power poles and get back to us about that.

>>572312386
What's wrong with that one? Other than doing something stupid, like putting your iron on the output belt for some reason.

>>572312386
Me too. Why would you put your iron plates on your output belt? You can't even mirror it so it outputs on the same belt. The hell is wrong with you? Then you have to filter the iron off and bring it all the way back down to get it into your factory. Literally what the fuck?

>>572316131
???
The bus-headed mind is truly an incomprehensible wonder

>>572316131
>Then you have to filter the iron off and bring it all the way back down to get it into your factory.
Whether the iron is coming from smelting or from a bus, it can be returned back to the bus reliably enough. Though given the amount of green you need its more complication and splitters than really necessary.

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I swear poles and inserters placement should not be this complicated.

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ACK

Havent had a chance to connect to /egg/ Pys in a while. Anyone able to tell me what the last update / what ended up happening? Im the anon that was playing between Py Science Pack 2 & helped set up Chemical Science.

>>572222023
Agreed

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I still hate it somehow
pole placement isn't regular enough

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New to factorio, why is only the circled belt moving any ore? The splitter has no priority, but even when I set it to left priority it only pulled from the righ

>>572324243
the top belt has input priority from the left so only that side is moving ore I think

>>572324243
Stuff further down the line is probably only pulling from the right side of the belt.

>>572324243
You gotta aggressively balance your train unloaders, just merging it with two pairs of splitters isn't adequate.

>>572325272
>>572325259
Oh so the input left belt only goes to the left side of the output belt? I thought it would place it onto both sides

>>572325535
>balance-tard shims in with his irrelevant comment like clockwork
it's like you feel the need to spread your mental disease, disgusting

>>572325571
No, if it goes through a splitter it only puts stuff on the same side of the belt than went in. It alternates which belt it's taking from/pushing to, but doesn't alternate which side of the belt it's using. Just the whole belts.

>>572325658
Er, yes. Sorry. Yes to your question how it's worded.

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>>572325628
The only place it's essential is train unloaders or you end up with evil train bottlenecks.
And then all you have to actually do is lane balance.

>>572325658
So then I need to either pull the ore from both sides of the downstream belt (at the moment it's only on one side) or I need to somehow force it all to one side down the line

>>572325780
Yeah, pretty much. It's a bit annoying and not as pretty looking but dems the beats. It shouldn't cause any major issues. Not for your level of experience, anyway. It can cause issues when you're majorly scaling stuff up but you really shouldn't sweat it until you're gearing up to go megafactory or something and you're a ways out from that. Inserters drop to the far side of the belt and prioritize picking up stuff from the near side. Once the near side is out it will take from the far side.

>>572326038
Yeah I'm not gonna worry too much about it. As is I'm sure normal, my factory is a total clusterfuck because of not realizing the placement of things was a poor decision and I haven't reworked everything

>>572325761
kys balance-tard, one day you'll learn how to play the game instead of copy-pasting blueprints you don't understand, there is no use-case for unprioritied splitters in a FIFO, steady-state cellular automaton
there are only 2 evils and they are balancing mechanics and buses

>>572326230
Keep it up. Embrace the chaos. It's more fun that way.

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>>572152145

>>572326468
But then how do you ensure wagons empty at roughly the same rate.

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d'awww he's smiling :)

>>572327112
Because you consume the output belts at a... steady-state.

>>572327112
my unload inserters are only active when their steel chest does not contain less in it than the total amount/the number of chests.

it means the fullest chest unloads more often.
and as long as you have more that enough crates for a belt its balanced.

>>572327563
But what if you don't.

>>572327754
Then you haven't reached equilibrium and you need to git gud.
Read nigga read: https://essfhs.weebly.com/uploads/4/4/0/1/44015159/equilibrium_positive_and_negative_feedback_pdf.pdf
This is baby-tier engineering and system theory.

>>572327963
This isn't applicable to factorio.

>>572327963
i overproduce, because a FULL belt uses less UPS than a belt with lots of little gaps, which shows up when a non-full belt gets items taken off it.

>>572328108
Correct, in the sense that you don't need in fact, any feedback loops (balancing), because Factorio is a both deterministic and discrete (cellular) automaton, where everything can be planned, and synced down to tick-level such that no machine (or belt) ever stalls, aka STEADY-STATE
Hint: you dogshit bus is anything but steady, and you cannot prove that it wouldn't ever stall, because in fact, it will, and why any claim of "SPM" while relying on negative feedback-loops is nothing but a statistical anomaly

>>572328162
>little gaps, which shows up when a non-full belt gets items taken off it
good one, maybe one day you'll figure it out
there isn't a single gap in my belts, and they always run at full speed, that's called packing

>>572328404
No it can't, biter expansion is random until saturation, and quality is always random.

>>572328651
none of that shoud affect production lines, no idea what you're even arguing about
there is clear distinction between production that rely doubling-time for self-reproduction (entities) and the production itself (science)
no one is asking your factorio to be self-expanding

>>572328885
Biter expansion affects production because biter attacks and expansions deplete ammunition.

>>572328501
anon, when the belt is going full speed, without stopping, what happens when an item is removed from it?
the gap stays there until it reaches the end of the belt
meanwhile my overfull belt IMMEDIATLY fills that gap with the backlog of items.

making the EXACT amount of items isn't optimal, its midwit behaviour.
and your way of posting backs up that you live on the wrog side of dunning kreuger.

meanwhile im an actual retard, having fun making awkwardly placed spaghetti as a challenge, because i found mega basing to be a lame time of just making x assemblers fed by y furnaces from z belts with a beacons and b stations for c trains.

meanwhile im thinking about belt weaving copper through a steel AND iron belt to feed my mil sci packs while leaving space to unload te ammo onto the coal belt that feeds the grenades.

>>572329053
oh, you're just one of THOSE.

>>572329053
Alright, I'll concede that if you consider defense costs to be statistical constant, you cannot make it steady-state without relying on heavy buffering (which is exactly what train cargos are in practice), and why you would theorically always need to keep an eye on it so that it doesn't stall, but the cost is so minimal in endgame scenarios that really isn't significant to any extent, same with self-reproduction, since you will always need manual labor to expand your factory anyway, like you could imagine a case where your mall stalls because you run into a situation where you lose your coin toss 100 times in a row, which is bound to happen

>>572329294
>until it reaches the end of the belt
you're almost there, keep thinking

When I remote-click on an item inside a storage box, it gets a red X and is marked for removal by bots. Is there a way to clear this order?

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Okay. For reals. THIS time I will build my factory nice and organized from the very beginning.

>>572329512
>Loaderfag
You didn't beat the game.

>tfw I will never be so good at Factorio that all my inserters pick up and swing at the exact same time
Only living to suffer.

>>572330857
If that's the only goal, you could wire them all to the same circuit and send pulses to enable each swing.

>>572330986
>Circuits
Wow autism much?

>>572324243
Your top splitter is set to prioritize its left input, so it does exactly that. The right input won't move at all if there are items available on the left. Beyond that your smelting is probably preferentially pulling ore from one lane of the belt, which makes it so only 1 lane of the belt is moving as well.

>>572331212
Yes.

>>572331548
Oh. Right. Rock on, then.

>>572330986
>circuits
Thanks for reminding me of the third evil.
>>572330752
I pity your lack of imagination, picture your belt, it's full, you offload one half-belt it into a machine, then, onload a second belt into the first one, how many belts are empty? I swear something this basic would blow your mind somehow

>>572330986
Even then they might not swing all at once, like if you enable an inserter but its target is full, it's obviously not going to swing.

>>572331860
If some of your machines are idling, or not synced, you've already lost, you obviously don't need circuits to achieve this

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bottom is somewhat more compact, but top is much cleaner, I'm conflicted

>>572332496
mix both so it's neither compact nor clean

>>572332496
just use your first furnace stack, but swap the output to input halfway, splitting the iron off but letting the coal continue

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>>572332496
>cleaner means symmetrical
Stack the plate and steel furnaces vertically.

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>>572332969
if that's what you mean that's even less compact at equal lane lenght, I don't really need 48-long furnace stacks
>>572333275
I mean cleaner in terms of belt input and output

>>572333538
no anon, i mean literally take your usual furnace stack, and halfway down you take the ore off, and put the iron plates on.

by the time you need steel at scale you'll have electric furnaces, which means ore in, direct insert, steel out.

>>572333784
nta and it's been ages since I played vanilla, but don't iron and steel furnaces work 1:1? Might as well have them directly insert from one to another.

>>572333784
but that's exactly what I'm doing on the first example here, just imagine that instead of it being 1 + 1 (ore then plate), that's a lane of 24 + 24

>>572333940
yeah, but then you need to also sort out coal inot both, which means running coal on a lane/belt on the steel side, which is MUCH bigger

>>572334052
no anon, you're going to lock up on ore or steel on your build.

give me 5 to load up factorio and ill post a screenshot

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>>572334052
compactness for comparison is not better and not cleaner either, not sure what's the point besides having longer lanes, which you could replicate by having more stacked input and output belts
>>572333940
makes you have to split the coal which is messy

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(ignore the fuel, it's AAI's fuel. it's basically coal)
I always just do full lines of iron, and then feed them into the input of an identical line that makes steel. That way, I can still use the iron being used in steel for iron when I have lower steel usage (pretty common when making belts en masse early).
It's not purely compact, but I value the flexibility more

>>572334298
then you could make your steel lane 5x longer by using 5 parallel lanes of iron as input, which is what I do for large modular builds
my made-up solution was pretty ingenuous however, and pretty sure it just works as a mean of merging input and output belts

>>572334298
>lube tube
loaders spotted.

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>>572334162
did this quick, because in my current save im midway through a train overhaul, so my ore is literally coming from a box for this demo.

you literally STOP the ore, and replace it with iron plates from the output above.

>>572334576
I actually do use loaders in this save (I use them for train loading/unloading in nauvis orbit since it's more compact), but I have them in expensive mode over lube mode. The lube pipe is because my oil processing is on the left, and my starter base (which needs lube for bots and eventually blue belts) on the right.
>>572334512
This is for my starter base, which I never really plan for more than 4 belts of iron and 4 belts of copper. Past that, I'm making larger builds on rails that probably use electric furnaces with modules+beacons.

>>572334648
you don't need to do this... just flip the inserters, which is functionally what my 1st example is doing (look closely), your solution here is wasting one half-belt with nothing on it
>>572334298
this is also what my 2nd example is doing, while being more compact (one lane is the input for the next), which can always be used for something else at the end

>>572334976
anon, you're not thinking about this in action.
what happens if you fill up on steel, which backlogs your plates, which fills the steel lane with ore.

plus, THIS design is tileable for the outputs, gimmie another 5

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>>572334976
>>572335128

literally the ONLY downside is that you need medium poles for it, but no-one uses wooden poles for building beyond green.

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>>572335387
anon... here it is with output merged, it's still less compact, you don't need any splitter madness for this

>>572335505
in your example you left the middle belts connected.

but also, im still thinking pre spage when you couldn't filter inserters, so putting iron on your coal belt meant EVERY furnace would pinch the plate, and try to make steel.

it takes a while to kill 10 years of habit.

Just WHAT exactly is this steel autist trying to accomplish in the end?

>>572336030
Making steel in factorio.

>>572335387
my furnace stack not working with wooden poles is a complete game-breaker though, because I want to build it with wooden pole technology

>>572337226
use quality ones

>tfw forgot to play Factorio tonight
Fug.

>>572337226
underground belts in the middle,
leave the steel furnaces with just one inserter to leave space
just use the better poles.

>>572332496
The bottom is what I use all the time. I filter out the coal from the output steel using an underground belt at the output. I think it's a very nice design.

>>572340397
these things make the stack more expensive and more annoying to build by hand, which are the actual important things for something I'm placing at the start of all of my saves. Saving one row of space or whatever these designs are doing is completely meaningless in comparison

>>572343354
>he uses blueprints between runs
cmon anon, anything but your rail book and maybe balancers should be different in every run.
otherwise what's the point?

>>572343354
>>572343723
also, the cost of needing to modify a build around worse power poles FAR exceeds the cost of just siphoning off a few dozen steel per stack.

>>572343723
>rail book
Cringe
>balancers
All you need is the 4x4 and if you can't remember how to build that then make a new one

>>572343723
I'm not using blueprints (other than my rail book, of course) between runs, but that's even more reason for it to be simple to be set up. Just furnaces in a line, inserters in a line, poles placed.

>>572306789
thanks for the interesting write up, anon. I was wondering when in the playthrough I should start caring about quality but I guess that the answer is never, unless I get bored

Quality just needs to allow the use of mixed quality products in the making of an item and that solves all the qualty problems.
Surely somone has made a mod for it yeah?

>>572347313
if not, would it prove to you that its not a simple fix, which is probably why wube didn't go for it?

>>572324243
Just an FYI, train unload balancing has been made real easy now thanks to the ability to have imserters place on a specific side of a belt if the belt and inserter are in line facing the same direction in 2.1

>>572347313
What is the intended result?

>player makes a turret
>uses 10 normal copper plate
>10 uncommon iron plate
>10 rare iron plate
>10 epic gears
>results in 3#$%_^&57 quality turret?????

What it do?

>>572347481
Modders are restricted in what they can do and last i remember is that quality is very fucky to mod around with which isnt to say the devs could not simply do it themselves

>>572348073
You use the lowest tier of material that went in as the end product quality
No need to over complicate it

>>572348073
the fun way:
>player mixes different qualities of ingredients
>weighted random outcome of the final product quality is now proportional to the quantities used
>further modified by quality modules for an increase
the kinda boring reasonable way: >>572348303 which makes quality items just plug and play into your normal production

>>572348134
>>572348073
>>572348303
>>572348384

a big part of the problem is that items still need to stack for most recepies.
do you need all of a particular item to be the same quality? do you give assemblers like, 200 slots and just fill each one with different quality bits, then it uses the best each cycle?

what happens now when you have one factory eating EVERY quality ingrediant coming in from one direction, and another eating them all from the other?

what happens when you have 200 assemblers all with different quantities and values of quality, being calcuated individually based on the quality of the object, instead of calculated in bulk?

any answer will be cancer to some huge amount of players.

>>572348679
The simplest fix, running with the reasonable idea would be to just instantly convert all items of a given type to the lowest quality in the machine when inserted
Simply don't send your legendary gears down the common production belts in this case

>>572348384
In that case, even with a middling metal setup and little late-game nonsense, you can get productivity when crafting iron into gears and productivity when crafting copper into wire or both into green circuits, meaning that those are the cheapest materials to make into. legendary material, and are both available from a single asteroid or from magma which can be supplied from calcite from space, or just mined.

So, instead of bothering to grind stone into legendary stone, or grind for fucking legendary biter eggs, you can now craft a t3 productivity module from 4 legendary t2 modules using only legendary metal ingrediants, and so pay a little bit more metal in order to just use normal or uncommon biter eggs and have a reasonable chance of getting a legendary module as output.

Similarly, you can skip on holomium products and tungsten and just make more metal.

>>572347313
Yes, or they could at least allow higher quality items to go into lower quality recipes (with the output remaining the quality of the recipe, no upgrade). I don't think modders can really do this, Wube definitely could

>>572348073
Easy answer: lowest quality input determines quality of the output, any quality modules in the machine are rolled "late" in the process and only decide whether to upgrade over the lowest quality or not
More complicated answer: weighted random based on input quality tiers and probably number of quality items of each tier inserted, biased heavily towards the lower tiers

Honestly I would probably just go with the easy answer, it's going to be much easier for players to understand as well.

>>572348679
>do you need all of a particular item to be the same quality?
This is reasonable. Alternatively you can just clamp higher quality ingredients down to the quality level of the crafting recipe. If you put legendary ingredients into a rare recipe, they become rare when inserted. Want to get your legendaries out? Tough shit, be careful where you send them.

I think being able to use multiple ingredients with different levels of quality to craft any product and still get quality results would completely ruin the challenge that comes with the mechanic. You would just throw quality modules into everything mindlessly and end up with lots of quality products for no logistical challenge at all.

>>572351383
quality modules mean no prod or speed modules though, so it's not really mindless

>>572351730
that would be offset by creating more higher quality products earlier on

>>572351383
You still need to give up on speed and prod modules, though I think allowing only higher quality items to be used as if they were lower quality would avoid much of the problem. You would still need to use machines with the dedicated quality recipes in them to actually upgrade significantly and you would still need to route quality output appropriately to not waste it in lower quality recipes. The only real difference would be that you can use excess quality intermediates in your science production rather than recycling them.

The current system is entirely nonsensical anyway, like what a legendary iron plate is too good to make a common green circuit? How does that work, how exactly is a piece of iron supposed to be too good? It's completely retarded.

>>572351383
consider the following
>normal quality product, allows normal and above quality ingredients
>uncommon product, requires uncommon or above quality ingredients
>repeat until legendary

>>572354595
>all your legendary components are gobbled up by low quality production

>>572355259
Just don't route them there then?????