>>583837160
Based Broly

>[Embed] [Embed]

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funny!

>>583838365
How the fuck is that gonna hurt Goku when the ROSAT's whole shtick is having even worse conditions than the look out and Kid Goku could sleep in there?
How's a different in pressure gonna hurt someone who can be punted through a planet?

>>583834414
>Salagir takes some vague nonsense about Toriyama saying SS1 was "10x stronger" and applied it to every form after as well. So 2 is 10x stronger, etc.
I think he did that because of Cell. Because Half power SS2 Gohan being strong enough to kill SPC made no sense for Salagir, since it would mean broken arm SS2 Gohan would be as strong as SS1 Gohan.

>>583834932
It's a 10x multiplication per form. SS2 is 500x base and SS3 is 5000x base.

>>583839930
Does Salagir think SSJ1 Gohan beats Super Perfect Cell?

>>583840126
Logically SSJ1 Gohan should since Goku thought Gohan could beat Cell and didn't know about SSJ2.

>>583840246
But Super Perfect Cell is stronger than that Cell

>>583840330
Not by much since Gohan at 50% still overpowered his ass by a lot during that beam clash when he FINALLY let his power out like Goku wanted.

>>583840435
Depends entirely on how strong SSJ2 is, which I suppose is the issue, but I don't think you can demonstrate SSJ1 Gohan is necessarily stronger than SPC either way

>>583840628
>which I suppose is the issue
It's not, we know it's 100x base.

I personally think it works just fine as long as you consider rage boosts separate from super saiyan 2

>>583841001
There's multiple aspect to it. 1: The rage boost. 2: SSJ2 and 3: the full power Gohan refused to let out until the beam clash.

>>583840792
That's a guide statement, and doesn't it only explicitly say 2x SSJ1? So that's also affected by how strong you think the SSJ1 they are in at that point is

>>583841234
SSJ is 50x so it's not really a question of 'think' or whatever, that's the info we have so that's what we work with. Otherwise we might as well be talking fanfiction.

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>>583839470
No, he said he envisioned it as a 10 fold increase from the previous one. What was Goku's previous increase? KKx20. He made SS with the idea of being ten times stronger than pic related.

>>583841358
Ironically the Daizenshuu are written by Toriyama's fanclub, so that is the case

>>583841547
No, something official isn't the same as being fanfiction, that's ridiculous.

>>583841683
It's not like it's from Toriyama himself, and the company that wrote them was founded by the president of Toriyama's fanclub. I agree the guides are more valuable than a random internet post but they are of secondary value to the source material nonetheless

>>583841824
>It's not like it's from Toriyama himself
It's still official and got him directly saying it's accurate, you can't compare that to fanfics.

>>583840435
Cell got distracted by Bejita

>>583841875
>got him directly saying it's accurate
He didn't say that, but what he did say in the introduction to the 4th Daizenshuu is: "On top of just sloppily drawing things by the seat of my pants, there are many things that not even I had precisely determined"

>>583842015
Getting pinged for a second just gave Gohan the time to be convinced to let out his power, it didn't actually make Cell weaker during the beam clash.

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>>583841367
>No, he said he envisioned it as a 10 fold increase from the previous one.
What he said is what I paraphrased.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/seg-story-volume-truth-about-dragon-ball/

>Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.
The vague wording can mean 10x from base, or 10x from kaiokenx20, but since he felt 50x was too much, it's probably from base. Later he drew base future Gohan training a super saiyan Trunks, so he likely just stopped seeing SS1 as this massive increase.

>>583842074
>He didn't say that
Yes, he did, like it's not even arguable, he was super clear about it.

>>583842256
He didn't or else you would have cited it already.
In addition this statement >>583842250 is also him directly saying the Daizenshuu number didn't feel right to him (even though in this case the Daizenshuu is completely reasonable)

>>583842250
>he vague wording can mean 10x from base, or 10x from kaiokenx20, but since he felt 50x was too much, it's probably from base.
No, it just means it's 50x but he didn't get the feeling what he drew showed that.

>>583842381
>Muh citation
This isn't reddit and we both know what we're talking about.
>is also him directly saying the Daizenshuu number didn't feel right to him
No, it's not, it's actually him confirming the 50x thing isn't from the Daizenshuu and is from all the way back to the Freeza arc itself.
You REALLY need to learn to read.

>>583842512
Toriyama obviously isn't saying he intended a 50x multiplier and failed to convey it, he's saying he thinks the 50x statement from guides seems too much and he never had that big of a number in mind in the first place, any other reading is disingenuous

>>583842649
>Toriyama obviously isn't saying he intended a 50x multiplier and failed to convey it
That is exactly what he's saying, thus the 'while drawing it', you moron.

>>583842643
>we both know what we're talking about
This is out of character for you to say, but in any case we don't, you really need to provide this supposed statement of Toriyama christening the Daizenshuu as accurate, because it doesn't exist
>No, it's not, it's actually [hallucinations]
OK

>>583842250
>but since he felt 50x was too much
See >>583833039
The problem here is that you are mixing two interpretations. He's saying "50 is too much, make it 10", both numbers apply to base or both to KKx20, you can't mix them.
And clearly he can't be talking about base because that would make SS weaker than KK and only as strong as Ozaru.

>he's starting again

>>583842821
You could plausibly say it applies to KKx10 since that was the general level Goku was fighting at, and the KKx20 was only one attack. That would make SSJ1 a 100x multiplier which is clearly against the spirit of what Toriyama is saying but isn't toooo crazy

>>583842807
>This is out of character for you to say,
No, it's very in character of me to point out you're full of shit.
>you really need to provide this supposed statement of Toriyama christening the Daizenshuu as accurate, because it doesn't exist
If I satisfy this reddit cope, will you get on your knees, beg for forgiveness and cut your wrist so you never pollute this general again?
>You are 100% right and I can't even argue but I called it hallucination through a deluge of tears before agreeing
God, that's so funny.

>>583843070
Show us the statement of Toriyama saying the Daizenshuu are exhaustively accurate, anon

>>583842839
He never stopped, he's still crying about Toriyama destroying his tail headcanon in the other thread.

>>583843197
>us
You're still all alone, sperg.
Now answer the question: If I indulge your redditor nonsense, will you kill yourself and stop shitting up the thread?
Dude really think he can give homework to people.

>>583843215
What "tail headcanon" do I supposedly have?

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>Goku's PoV:

>>583843367
That's a lot of posts without providing the statement that your entire argument hinges upon

>>583843062
>>583843062
>KKx20 was only one attack
It was a combo actually, and that's literally how Kaioken works, it's always used in short bursts.
>the spirit of what Toriyama is saying
Disingenuous. Toriyama is saying 50 is too much so it's 10, you can apply that to base, KKx10 or KKx20 but in all cases he's substantially lowering a number, that's "the spirit" of what Toriyama was saying.
And what's clear here is that he can't really be talking about base form because again, that would make SS weaker than KK and only as strong as Ozaru. Make it an increase from KKx10 if you want, but Toriyama's statement has to apply to some Kaioken, so the base x50 multiplier is just incorrect.

>>583843523
AKA you know you're wrong and don't have the balls to take the bet.
>>583843574
> has to
It doesn't, you just can't read.

>>583843574
Whichever way you spin it, it just means Toriyama didn't understand what the 50x multiplier originally referred to, because raising it to 100x or 200x base is a massive buff over what everyone thinks it is, "exaggerating" it more

>>583843459
>Correct us of POV
Neat. Also it lacks Princess Snake.
Nice armpit tho.

Still waiting for the statement of Toriyama calling the Daizenshuu accurate

>>583844035
Still waiting for you to take the bet that once it's posted you'll stop shitting up the thread.

>>583844146
If you can prove you are right there is nothing I could do anyway, it's up to you brother

kys luigi

>>583844209
So you WILL beg for forgiveness and fuck off once it's posted, right? Yes or no.
Cause everyone can see your mental gymnastics coming.

>>583844362
How much longer are you going to shit up the thread with this gay ass e-drama instead of posting the Toriyama statement

>>583844447
Still don't have the balls to say yes I see.

>>583843821
I'm well aware Toriyama's statement means he never understood or just forgot what the Daizenshuu truly claimed because they did say the boost of SS was specifically from saiyan's base form, thus a base x50 increase, but whatever reason he had to say what he did doesn't change his statement.
Goku got 50 times stronger? No, lower that number, it's just 10 times. 10 times what? Can't be base, obviously, so it has to be KK, that was Goku's limit before going SS after all.

As it turns out, the statement doesn't exist

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I'm surprised yesterday's Buu saga Piccolo slander didn't cause any argument, but other random discussions did.

>>583844326
It's crazy you're always here whenever the thread is being shat up, almost like you're the problem.
>>583844447
Wow, you make random demands to a random anon and they mess with you being denying you what you asked? Who could have seen that coming?

>>583844731
Unfortunately beliefs that are unsupported by sources are called headcanon or, even worse, fanfiction, and that is what your positions amount to until you can produce a statement of Toriyama calling the Daizenshuu accurate

>>583844592
As it turns out, you know you're wrong and have no balls.
At least you knelt to the fact Toriyama was right and your fanfics are shit.
>>583844585
>but whatever reason he had to say what he did doesn't change his statement.
Well yeah, you're just completely missing what he's saying. The problem is on your end.

>>583844838
If you wannabe delusional and just keep making yourself an easy target, be my guest I guess.

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Toriyama considered it accurate enough to help him with actually writing the story for whatever it's worth

>>583844636
Because the Piccolo thing was openly hypotheticals and essentially AU stuff. This shit is just people being retarded with official confirmed stuff.

I think the schizo isn't even aware that the Daizenshuu also covers anime filler and doesn't separate it from "canon", and he can't pick and choose which parts of the Daizenshuu are canon if he truly believes Toriyama declared it scripture

>>583845201
Now we just have to wait for the mental gymnastics.

>>583845265
I think we were discussing stuff we considered true though, didn't we? Like that Piccolo is probably considered weaker than base gohan, somehow.

>>583845337
There's the cope.

>>583845540
What?

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Ngl I do feel like half the stuff we argue about in complete confidence is stuff Toriyama probably didn't even think about

>>583845403
The mental gymnastics are trying to interpret that as a statement that "all the information in the Daizenshuu is accurate", which notably cannot be found in that quote in any phrasing

>>583845598
The stuff we're arguing about this time is stuff that was directly confirmed multiple times tho, it's not the same.
Arguing about the logistics of Freeza's empire is one thing but arguing about confirmed info is just dumb.

>>583845726
>No u
There's the mental gymnastics. No wonder you didn't want to take the bet.

>>583845337
Leaving aside your weak cope, the seventh Daizenshuu is exclusively manga stufff iirc, only the other ones have anime shit

>>583845792
I wasn't talking about this specific thing, though. I was talking more about the usual arguments that tend to somehow hover around Gohan for some reason

>>583845916
Anon that's literally just not what it says, he's saying they did a great job and having an encyclopedia like this would have really helped his forgetful but he is not saying "the information contained herein reflects exactly what I had in mind", which he even explicitly contradicted here >>583842250

>>583845965
That's because Gohan's whole deal in the Cell Saga and Buu Saga was frankly halfbaked and Toriyama changed his mind midway through (for the better IMO).
I don't mind those because there's legit a lot of unclear stuff in there.

>>583846091
*his forgetful self

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>>583845265
Piccolo stuff is weird because of the way he's talked about. Even ignoring him declaring that Shin is far stronger, we also have Dabura, who doesn't know of super saiyan, deeming him too weak to bother stealing his energy since Babidi only wanted the strongest three, so he's somehow weaker than base Gohan, or at least Dabura thinks so.

>>583846091
>Anon that's literally just not what it says
You're doing that thing where you pretend a very clear sentence is saying something else to cope with being wrong again.
He says it's accurate, you lost, stop whining.
An inaccurate encyclopedia can't help you, it's fucking obvious.

>>583845926
It isn't, it includes also anime original content and makes no particular distinction between them in terms of "validity"
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/databook/daizenshuu/daiz-07/
>>583846321
>He says it's accurate
I would love to see where exactly he says that, because it's not in the Daizenshuu 7 introduction where he just calls it a good work
>An inaccurate encyclopedia can't help you
Given it's in the context of him forgetting what he drew before, yes it very much can do that even if things like multipliers are inaccurate

>>583846481
>I would love to see where exactly he says that,
Here >>583845598
You're welcome.
>It can because I said so
Or like everyone with a brain would say: It's useful because it's accurate
>what he drew
The Daizenshuu doesn't include drawing course and Toriyama literally said the 50x thing is from him all the way back in the Freeza saga in the very quote that started your mental breakdown.

>>583846820
>doesn't include drawing course
What? It includes plenty of art snippets
>Toriyama literally said the 50x thing is from him
Another statement that never happened, this is getting crazy

>>583846931
Art snippets don't tell you what you drew or how, retard.
>If I pretend everything that prove me wrong doesn't exist, I'll stop crying.
Hey, remember when you said that before and got hit with >>583845598 ?
Hey, remember the quote that started your meltdown that literally start with 'At the time'? Referring to when Toriyama made the arc?
Or you're just gonna pretend you have Alzheimer in addition to being illiterate?

>post second quote as a sobering reminder we're probably arguing about shit that doesn't matter
>people use it to argue about shit that doesn't matter

>>583847102
>Hey, remember when you said that before
We remember him running from the bet cause he knew he was wrong and would have to pull those mental gymnastics.
>>583847206
There's no argument, the info is officially confirmed, it's not something that only existed in Toriyama's head and was forgotten.

>>583847102
>Art snippets don't tell you what you drew
They quite literally do tell him that
>or how
Nobody is saying Toriyama forgot how to draw, his thing is forgetting past characters and events, which the Daizenshuu would allow him to keep track of
>everything that prove me wrong
ESL or stroke victim?
>pretend you have Alzheimer in addition to being illiterate?
I'm not Toriyama, no
>>583847206
I fundamentally agree with you, unfortunately the other schizo has a strange religious ideology where Toriyama can retroactively determine reality and guides have the weight of scripture

>>583847324
if you're so confident about it then why even argue about it, you're not going to convince that other anon

>>583846250
>we also have Dabura, who doesn't know of super saiyan, deeming him too weak to bother stealing his energy since Babidi only wanted the strongest three, so he's somehow weaker than base Gohan, or at least Dabura thinks so.
He can't sense Ki, but it's still not far from true even if wrong.

>>583847423
how would he know who the three strongest are if he can't sense them. I don't think there was anything particularly implying he cant sense Ki too.

Statements that didn't happen:
>Akira Toriyama: "The Daizenshuu are an accurate account of my story, and anything contradicting them is fanfiction, and therefore evil!"
Statements that did happen:
>Akira Toriyama: "I don’t mind one bit about my work being tweaked. There are people who are particular [about that sort of thing], but I’m incredibly happy to have other people’s revisions make it more interesting!!"
(V-Jump, May 2013 (21 March 2013))

>>583847562
There is no reason for the power radar to come out if Dabra can sense Ki, and just tell Babadi how strong Goku is.

>>583847410
>They quite literally do tell him that
No, they don't.
>Nobody is saying Toriyama forgot how to draw,
That was quite literally your cope right now.
>which the Daizenshuu would allow him to keep track of
Which is only possible if they're accurate like Toriyama said. Proving you're wrong.
>ESL or stroke victim?
Glad it still hurt, remember when your AI savior confirmed you were a third worlder?
>I'm not the guy who's word actually matter
We know.
>Yes I agree my headcanons don't matter but people keep pointing out the actual dude who made the manga said I was wrong and that he matters more than me so I keep cutting myself.
Hilarious.

>>583847418
I don't need to convince him, smacking his face into facts is more than enoiugh. He knows he's wrong anyway.
>>583847641
>Statements that didn't happen:
It happened here actually >>583845598

>>583847750
Anon you're not even capable of comprehending what I'm saying at this point, I'd love to keep fighting you but you at least have to understand the meaning of words to do that, like the difference between "what" and "how"

>>583847723
maybe they're just bad at it or the way they sense energy is just imprecise? I don't really know. He had to know they were all up on that mountain somehow

>>583847902
You need to stop arguing with people who don't believe Comic books are physical entities, man.

>>583847902
>I'm so misunderstood, I was totally right, I-i-i just can't say how and I'm running away in shame but i-i-it totally make YOU wrong.
Cool story, anyway Toriyama said you're wrong, the Daizenshuu are accurate, the multiplier is 50x and Goten and Trunks were born tailless, all obvious confirmed facts.

>>583848043
All things you will keep raging about for decades from now as millions of people continue not to believe them because they are not part of the story, which is thankfully not my problem

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>>583847562
He just seems to have an idea of someone's power if the difference is huge (Like say, how one can tell a gorilla is stronger than an ant), but otherwise he's off the mark. He even believed he was more than strong enough to handle SS1 Goku (After the radar showed Goku's strength), on top of Vegeta and Gohan, all at once.

>>583848028
>Hey me, I was so right about Dragon Ball being real and reprints not existing.
Take your meds.

I wonder how Kilis are supposed to work. Goku was at 3000 and Yakon was at 800 but base Goku being at 60 against Yakon's 800 doesn't really feel right

>>583848240
Where is the reprint that adds lines like "Goten was born without a tail!", or removing Goku saying "Super Saiyajin 2"?

>>583848172
Literally nobody believes you over Toriyama, dude. You couldn't even find 2 people who agreed with you here, let alone millions.
So much for 'I'm not fighting you anymore!!!' BTW.

>>583848332
Well you have to remember that Goku outputs much more power than baseline during movement in battle
>>583848378
There quite literally are at least 3 other anons who have been fighting alongside me at various points, while you are an absurdly obvious samefag because of your emotionally charged insult-laden typing style that you can't shake off

>>583848337
There's the reprint that change Trunks referring to the androids as 19 and 20, secondaryfag.
Why would they do a reprint for something that was never supposed to be anything else?

>>583847995
Well the Z warriors are suppressing themselves explicitly right.
Yes they are both magic users as well. Baba could know where things are using magic.
There is also the fact that Goku can instant transmission to King Kai despite not being able to sense Kai's ki because Goku learned how to sense Genki for the Genki dama. Also Babadi has all sorts of technology what about a bee camera ala Gero.

>>583848597
What do the androids have to do with those things?

>>583848495
>There quite literally are at least 3 other anons who have been fighting alongside me at various points,
No, there hasn't been.
>Everyone who beat my ass was just you, ignore the cooldowns, I have my schizo pattern cope!
Lol, you couldn't even find ONE person to agree with you here at all, let alone over Toriyama.

>>583848625
I don't think King Kai's ki has ever been refered to being unsenseable has it? I thought that was only the Kaioshins

>>583848684
It has to do that it debunk your claims that Toriyama can't change stuff in the manga when he change his mind because that's literally what the reprint did with the androids.

>>583848726
>No, there hasn't been.
Yes there has, the guy who says "comic books" for example isn't me, I don't even know what you argued about with him originally but I embrace him as my ally now
>>ignore the cooldowns
There are many ways to bypass them that I am too lazy to use, but you are enraged enough to use constantly

>>583848625
>what about a bee camera ala Gero.
It's funny how many times Toriyama used that.
>Gero's spy cameras
>Also Freeza's force spy cameras that gave them enough info to let them know Goku killed Kid Buu
>Also Red Ribbon Pharmaceuticals with their own spy cameras that let them know of Trunks killing Freeza and Fat Buu
>Also Gomah's magic cameras that allowed him to watch the entirety of Buu saga

>>583848952
It's a pretty reliable way to say "oh yeah this dude was totally watching the battle, you just didn't see them because the camera was really really small"

>>583848886
>Yes there has,
Nope, 0.
>I bet you don't have my samefagging knowledge!
At least now we know you were projecting.
Millions agree Goku's SSJ is a 50x BTW.

>>583848952
>>Also Gomah's magic cameras
I didn't think that those were physical cameras but more like clairvoyance/remote viewing

>>583849106
>but more like clairvoyance/remote viewing
It's called Scrying. And that's what they did, yeah.

>>583849089
Nope, at least 3, not counting those who only posted once and who I don't think had more participation
>Millions agree Goku's SSJ is a 50x BTW.
I do too and that was never a thing I disagreed about, it was just ironically a point where Toriyama went against the Daizenshuu, it's funny that he did so on one of the most uncontroversial and most objectively correct extrapolations featured therein

Toriyama didn't think Gohan was main character material but what about (you) What do you think? I think I agree with Toriyama. Gohan's a pretty passive and reactionary character, I don't think he'd be very good at driving plots and I don't think he has enough character in general to be all that interesting.

>>583849261
>Nope, at least 0
Fixed it for you.
>it was just ironically a point where Toriyama went against the Daizenshuu,
He didn't, you just can't read and HE was the source for the 50x, not the Daizenshuu, the very quote you try to use say it.
>he did so
He didn't, you just refuse to read

>>583848746
Kibito is just some member of the Kaio species or Glind as they are now know.
He isn't even divine, and Goku they can't sense his Ki.
Super changes this around to make Kibito divine in training, but if we allow Super lore in, then Goku can't sense Beerus or Whis because they are divine, so it's not just the Kaioshins.
Daima has it so Goku can sense random Glinds, which ??? but it also supports the idea that Dabra wouldn't be able to sense Ki so.

>>583849320
>but what about (you) What do you think?
I agree. I generally don't want a MC other than Goku.
'Next gen' is one of the worst trend in media alongside 'Subvert your expectations!'

>>583849320
Yeah, probably. But Goku isn't really driving the plot anymore either in Z, protagonists are largely always reacting to the villains, exceptions are times like the early Android arc where Vegeta is hunting #20
>>583849409
At least 0 still permits 3, so okay
>HE was the source for the 50x
Insofar as it's the necessary logical implication from the numbers in the manga yes, but he never outright said 50x before, basically once the math was all added up to him it didn't feel right to him

>>583848952
I don't think it's odd this is a universe with capsules and magic. People watching things stealthily seems reasonable.

>>583849589
>But Goku isn't really driving the plot anymore either in Z, protagonists are largely always reacting to the villains
True enough, I guess what I should amend it to is that Gohan doesn't really have enough sauce to properly react to stuff in interesting ways? He's never portrayed as being all that smart of a martial artist, and he's overall pretty ignorant of deeplore and such. I don't think he adds much.

>>583849589
>so okay
Glad you could admit it's 0
>insofar
No, in his direct quote where he say it was 50x at the time, he just felt differently about how he drew it.
>but he never outright said 50x before
He literally say it word for word in the very quote that started all this

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>>583849041
Yeah it's a funny way to have villains know who they're dealing with, but I find it funny just how many times it was used.

>you just didn't see them
Daima is where it gets silly because Arinsu was near Piccolo, yet he didn't see or sense her even before Fat Buu started to regenerate. She wasn't hiding either.

>>583849106
Oh yeah, it works like Baba's crystal ball, just thought it'd be funny to call it a camera.

>>583849432
God ki isn't a racial trait, it's a status thing. And Kibito obviously is a god, he lives in the Kaioshin Realm that he himself says has never been accessible to ningen or even the Dai Kaio, so he considers himself a person of stature above the Dai Kaio
>>583849713
>Glad you could admit it's 0
I suppose that's the same way you read the Daizenshuu introduction
>where he say it was 50x at the time
ESL aside, he didn't say that, he's referring to the widely known multiplier as common knowledge in that conversation
>He literally say it word for word in the very quote that started all this
And I literally said the word "before", illiterate-kun

>>583849858
>I suppose that's the same way you read the Daizenshuu introduction
AKA properly.
>Me senior aside
Nah, you being ESL is worth mentioning.
And no, he said 'at the time', so when he drew so nobody would have known since it wasn't published yet, you dumbfuck.
>And I said something irrelevant, no u!
Still haven't recovered from being told you can't read by multiple people?

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>>583849715
Daily reminder that babidi probably would have died if piccolo's dumbass didn't decide to monologue to him for no reason

>>583849320
>Gohan's a pretty passive and reactionary character
So is Frodo, and so are most of the Jojo's. Though I suppose Araki said he respected Akira, while Akria never returned the favor which by Japanese cultural standards... probably means Akira hates Jojo.

>>583850050
He said "at the time" to that past era, note also "it was considered", ie by people in general, it was the common understanding. Not "I considered it", his personal feelings are contrasted with the common understanding in the following sentence.
>projection
Yup

>>583850184
>So is Frodo,
Frodo is literally the one who's walking straight toward danger the entire story.

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>How did you come up with the character of Sachie?

>Toriyama:
>I wanted to go with a type of girl I don’t think of all that much. Sort of a modern-day, female Goku.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/jump-sq-may-2008-akira-toriyama-masakazu-katsura/

Huh. Well now you know. This is actually Toriyama's girl Goku.

>>583850210
>He said "at the time" to that past era
AKA, the era of when he drew it, retard.
>his personal feelings are contrasted with the common understanding in the following sentence.
Dragon Ball 'fans' can't read. His feeling about how he drew it contrasted what it really was, you retard. Having the feeling you didn't quite portray something right as an artist doesn't change what it is in the story.
>Yup
Good job being honest about your 'no u'. It's progress.

>>583850184
I'd argue the fellowship and the jobros tend to be much stronger personalities compared to the Z fighters, though. Which for the most part tend to just be kind of there half the time. Gohan's gimmick was also just starting to run out of steam by Buu saga too. The idea of "Gohan gets angry and powers up" had run its course with SS2 and by that point it's really just trite (as we see with Super Hero) But like, what DOES Gohan have other than his rage boosts? I guess he wants to be a scholar but that's not integrated into the actual core of dragonball very well. You can be a knowledgeable exposition man but that exposition tends to lean towards the weird and esoteric, which Gohan is not.

>>583850339
>Huh. Well now you know. This is actually Toriyama's girl Goku.
MODERN Girl Gok, that's a bit different.

>>583850339
...I genuinely don't know how to feel about this. I don't want to think about a girl Goku in the first place, but that... that's weird.

>>583850437
>AKA, the era of when he drew it, retard.
Moreso "the 90s", Super Saiyan was considered to be nothing before it was published because it didn't publicly exist yet
>Dragon Ball 'fans' can't read
Yes, you have given us many examples of that across the past two threads
>His feeling about how he drew it contrasted what it really was
That makes no sense you utter retard, you are making this extremely tortured reading of the statement because you are trying to make it fit your preestablished headcanon but it just doesn't work

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This should have happened.

>>583850682
>Moreso "the 90s",
Rest of the sentence say otherwise, learn to read.
>NO U!!!
You really felt nailed by that one
>us
AKA just you all alone and mad about it.
>The clear and proper reading of an easy sentence make no sense!!!!
Maybe for the illiterate but that's what Toriyama said. Too bad you couldn't get it and had to have this meltdown for so long.

I guess I could see the scholar gimmick being worked with in Cell type enemies where it's mostly a freaky science dude they have to fight? But even then Bulma's right there and she already has her niche as the science woman(and even she wasn't much help scientifically with the androids, sans the shutdown switch), so Gohan's double cucked

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>>583850589
Still, it's a girl Goku.

>>583850591
Honestly I can see it. There's even a food gag that feels like a "modernized" take on many a classic Dragon Ball ones.

>>583850724
Torishima...

>>583850821
You are really acting like a religious sectarian who has to go to extreme mental gymnastics twisting his scripture here, it's really sad and Toriyama would be horrified by it. But that's irrelevant to the substance in any case, any honest reading of the sentence comes away with Toriyama rejecting the 50x multiplier in any form, that is how literally every person in the world has always understood it except you.

What the manga necessarily depicts:
>SSJ Goku on Namek is appreciably over 40x as strong as his base
What the Daizenshuu extrapolates:
>SSJ Goku is 50x as strong as his base, this is a totally reasonable number but doesn't have to be exact
Toriyama, 2009:
>"Back then, SSJ was thought to be a 50x multiplier, but that doesn't feel right to me. When I drew it, it felt more like 10x"

>>583850971
To be fair, Gohan is a scholar in the old chinese meaning of the term, it's not ONLY about 'science', it can also be about culture, etiquette, philosophy, battle, weapons, art, the occult, politics etc.
It's basically the noble and cool variant of 'Otaku'.

>>583850520
>But like, what DOES Gohan have other than his rage boosts?
In Namek he was like an angry dog that Krillin had to put on a leash. I guess you can say he was desperately determined too if the Recoome fight is any hint.

>You can be a knowledgeable exposition man but that exposition tends to lean towards the weird and esoteric, which Gohan is not.
Toei liked to have Gohan be the exposition man (In GT when Goku was fighting Omega he stopped to explain something about Goku's power, and in Son Goku And His Friends Return, he coaches Goten and Trunks how to fight again) but even that is infrequent.

>>583851156
>You are really acting like a religious sectarian who has to go to extreme mental gymnastics
That's what people who can read look like to the illiterate? Damn.
All because Toriyama keep debunking your headcanons and people keep taking his word for it because he matters and you don't.
>He had to completely change Toriyama's sentence to make it fit his mental illness
Glad to see you admit Toriyama's actual words that he actually said 100% say you're wrong.

>>583850261
I think we need to go back and relearn what reactive/passice vs active protagonist is. By the way I'm 90% sure the only time Goku is an active protagonist is the Second Dragonball Collection Saga and maybe byt probably not the Namek Saga.
Frodo passively reacts to what Sauron does, while Sauron actively makes descions that start the plot and is majority responsible for shaping the plot. Sauron wants the ring and the world, Frodo wants to stop Sauron.
As opposed to Goku in the Second Dragonball Collection Saga where Goku wants the four star ball for his own reasons as his own choice.
>>583850520
>Gohan's gimmick was also just starting to run out of steam by Buu saga too.
It only reappears (in an intended way) after Gohan is already planned to be dropped as the MC.
>The idea of "Gohan gets angry and powers up" had run its course with SS2 and by that point it's really just trite (as we see with Super Hero) But like, what DOES Gohan have other than his rage boosts? I guess he wants to be a scholar but that's not integrated into the actual core of dragonball very well.
See I can agree with all this, but I don’t think it makes Gohan a bad protagonist. These things are true, but they are the way they are because to fix them requires Toriyama to step out of his comfort zone, and his contract for the Buu Saga meant nobody could prevent Toriyama from giving up and going back to safe comfortable Goku.

>>583851217
That's even less useful in a battle shounen-y sense, though. If there was more focus on worldbuilding I guess I could see it, but this really isn't that type of show. Well, we DO have stuff with Daima but it wouldn't make sense for Gohan to be knowledgeable about that kind of stuff.
>>583851308
>In Namek he was like an angry dog that Krillin had to put on a leash. I guess you can say he was desperately determined too if the Recoome fight is any hint.
I still feel like the former is an extension of his rage boosts as a character gimmick, which cow has been milked dry. The latter is just kind of a generic shounen thing that all of the fighters have done at least once.

>>583851380
Anon, the third person singular simple present conjugation of verbs in English appends an "-s" at the end. This is a mistake you have been making repeatedly for many posts now, I understand your native language works differently but it undermines your image too much, I can't even take you seriously as an opponent like this.

>>583851504
>That's even less useful in a battle shounen-y sense, though
My point was just that Gohan's gimmick wasn't THAT redundant with Bulma. I already said I prefer Goku stays the MC and don't see Gohan working out.

>>583851045
Thinking about this makes me uncomfortable. Stop it...

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>>583825203
If they fix the old anime's tranny Kale I will genuinely kneel to Toei

>>583851628
>Trying to change the topic entirely to cope about the time an AI he begged for help confirmed he was a third worlder
There was an attempt at least I guess.
>I can't take you seriously as an 'opponent' while I'm on the ground and being beaten with sticks
Okay, Wimp Lo.
I guess your teachers taught how to read wrong on purpose as a joke.

>>583851496
>It only reappears (in an intended way) after Gohan is already planned to be dropped as the MC.
I was more referring to super hero specifically where they bring it back because Gohan just doens't have much going on as a character that's relevant to DB
>>583851650
>I already said I prefer Goku stays the MC and don't see Gohan working out.
Oh I wasn't accusing you otherwise, Anon. It's just interesting to talk about Gohan as a character in general. Most Gohan fans believe in GOATHAN so badly that it's hard to actually talk about him.

>>583849858
>God ki isn't a racial trait, it's a status thing
Doesn't appear to be without Daima or Super lore.
>accessible to ningen or even the Dai Kaio, so he considers himself a person of stature above the Dai Kaio
I mean that's great but he doesn't have a rank at any point until Super, he just kind of is some guy who is the Kai species but isn't a Kai, even though there are five explicitly open positions.

>>583851786
>Most Gohan fans believe in GOATHAN so badly that it's hard to actually talk about him.
I don't get those fans. To me his last stand against Freeza in ROF is cooler than 99% of the shit they want him to be doing.
Also the constant Pan torture porn got weird.

>>583851695
You're the one making it weird anon.

>>583851760
Every sentence of yours is fucked up at this point. You are too exhausted and can't keep up, your ki is rapidly falling. There is no point fighting you anymore. Your ego has been shattered.
Knowing you, you should be able to seethe, even in your state. Go, and learn to enjoy the gift that Dragon Ball is.
>>583851895
>Doesn't appear to be without Daima or Super lore.
Well yeah, it's only named as a distinct thing in Super. But gods feeling different or mystifying to mortals is an intuitive takeaway even from how they act towards Kaioshin in the original, it's just not a discrete systematised thing yet. In any case I'm referring to Super when discussing god ki.

>>583852201
>I can't read and it's your fault, let me change the subject!
No.
>Go, and learn to enjoy the gift that Dragon Ball is.
Gift by Toriyama who confirmed you were wrong about everything BTW.
Go and learn to read.

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>>583852368

>>583852453
You're not Gohan, a rage boost won't change your literacy level.

>>583851504
>I still feel like the former is an extension of his rage boosts as a character gimmick, which cow has been milked dry.
Sort of, but only in the sense he hits harder when he decides to attack, but in Namek Gohan was a lot less patient when it comes to a villain doing wicked deeds than the rest, which's noticeable compared to Krillin who tried to think ahead. It's not much but it's something.

>The latter is just kind of a generic shounen thing that all of the fighters have done at least once.
Fair enough. Vegeta tends to do it more often than Gohan too... Ironically not in Namek. Against Freeza he's quickly to give up, while Gohan at least tries.

>>583851943
>To me his last stand against Freeza in ROF is cooler than 99% of the shit they want him to be doing.
To me Gohan's greatest high as a character is in Namek, but the fanbase prefers SS2 (Achieved by him being weirdly passive) and Ultimate Gohan (Achieved nothing and didn't even get a cool fight).

>>583852568
It seems to have boosted yours for a bit but has worn off a while ago. I'm very concerned you didn't even get the reference

>>583851786
>I was more referring to super hero specifically where they bring it back
Again Toriyama is reaching back to saftey, also it wasn't in Toriyama's contract this time that nobody can say anything to him. With Super and Daima Toriyama is at higher position, and we are looking at the product partially born of other people's creative vision. Anyway whoever is responsible for everything wrong with Super Hero was influenced by the fact Toriyama already reverted Gohan to that state in the Buu Saga. They don't want to actually engage with Gohan but they aren't willing to let go, so they just do what worked that one time without understanding why it worked. They are cargo culting themselves.

>>583852693
>No u
God, that was sad even for you.

My favorite Gohan moment is when he stood up to his mom to say that he's going to Namek no matter what. It's not a big moment or anything. I just think it meant a lot given he probably feels responsible for what happened during Sayian Saga and this is him trying to make things right. Gohan versus the Ginyu force is also top three though. Namek Gohan was really his peak.

>>583852940
That literally wasn't even a no u man at least try to stay on track, half of your posts feel like Toei filler scenes inserted into the fight

>>583852662
>Ultimate Gohan (Achieved nothing and didn't even get a cool fight).
Gohan is carried by his cool rushes in video games honestly. Just like SSJ4 Gogeta.

>>583853067
Hey that's not true, his rush in the anime was cool too! (I also think Ultimate Gohan is carried by being the strongest non fusion hero in Z)

>>583853059
>It wasn't a no u!
Cope

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>>583853246

Cactus Rot

>>583853172
>(I also think Ultimate Gohan is carried by being the strongest non fusion hero in Z)
It's so funny how some fans got so attached to that and keep getting flashbanged whenever the movies showed Goku being stronger or Daima and Super had Goku almost immediatel surpass him again.

>>583853172
>>583853378
Yeah I was about to say, this is widely disputed now. Recently VSBW accepted SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan in the Boo arc even in purely manga scaling.

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>>583853449
>VSBW
Don't remind me

>>583853449
>Recently VSBW accepted SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan in the Boo arc even in purely manga scaling.
I'm not sure about that but the franchise clearly never meant for Ultimate Gohan to be this wall that would always stay ahead of Goku.
Hell, even the End of Z had Goku clearly be the strongest of the group and being treated as such.

>>583853606
Fans tend to give every character other than Goku insane benefit of the doubt, it manifests subtly(or sometimes outwardly) in stuff like multiverse and that one powerlevel list from earlier where Vegeta gets a giant rage boost but Goku gets fuck all from Namek

>>583853606
EoZ is after a 10 year timeskip where anything could have happened(currently Super), so it's easier to accept. The implications of SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan is that Gohan never surpassed Goku at any point in the arc even as it was going on, which feels bad for Gohan fans, and also Goku could have beaten Super Boo at any point but just chose not to. That's unironically what VSBW thinks

>>583853338
The planet in this context being Uranus.

>>583853449
>Recently VSBW accepted SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan in the Boo arc even in purely manga scaling.
What is their reasoning for that, btw. I understand that anime Goku gets that one filler where they fought super Buus in base Super Saiyan but how do you manage to put ultimate above 3 using purely the manga?

>>583838674
>I didn't learn physics nor do I understand KI

Goku can still drown and can't breath in space. His physical body isn't actually that much more evolved than anyone elses. Fighters are coating in their own living ki to defend from damage or strike harder, only a few villains had specialized biology on top of that to help (like Cell). "Getting stronger" scales infinitely because they are talking about spiritual training not physical limits. Its why Goku can blow up planets but dies of a heart disease.

There I ruined Dragonball for power scalers forever.

>>583853762
>The implications of SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan is that Gohan never surpassed Goku at any point in the arc even as it was going on, which feels bad for Gohan fans, and also Goku could have beaten Super Boo at any point but just chose not to. That's unironically what VSBW thinks
I mean, yeah, as I said I'm not sure about THAT. I'm just saying lots of people didn't seem to realize 'Goku's alive now, he's just gonna train for a few months and pass Gohan again'.
And some people like Salagir somehow convinced themselves Goku can't surpass Ultimate Gohan PERIOD.
>>583853709
Yeah, I agree. Or when people just assume that a Saiyan Goku would have died as some nobody, like Goku didn't make his own luck very often.
Meanwhile nobody argue a kidnapped Gohan would have died as a middling officer of Freeza's army.

>>583853923
>Goku can still drown and can't breath in space.
That's because there's no air at all, not because of fucking pressure, you retard.
>Fighters are coating in their own living ki
No, the characters don't work through weird forcefields, they make their own body that strong through the ki.
>of a heart disease.
No, a heart VIRUS, AKA a fictional disease that doesn't exist because Saiyans can no sell the Extinction bomb.

>>583852201
I just don't see the argument for not being able to sense Kibito but being able to sense Kita no Kaio, especially in just Dragonball but also in Super because it's not a rank thing, Vegeta just fucking learns Godly Arts and gets SSJG.
Especially since Goku never senses Kito no Kaios while on his way to his planet when Kaio is above Raditz level, and Goku is suprised when he learns Kito no Kaio is below Nappa level, when they had been training together. I don't think mortals can sense any Kaio

>>583853868
It's in the context of asserting Kid Boo > Super Boo using manga scaling too. I don't buy it but it's a pretty large effort, I found the thread again
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-most-troublesome-buu-buu-scaling-revision.188752/
So here what they're basically saying is Kid Boo is stronger than Bootenks but SSJ3 Goku was still able to fight Kid Boo effectively, so SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan

Accidentally put the wrong link at first, mb

>>583854252
I agree, Kaio sensing is a plot hole with how Super established god ki to work. In my headcanon it's more like you have to get used to it first, and Goku trained with Kaio for a year so he can sense him, but nobody knows what to make of Kaioshin or later Beerus at first. But it's still weird.

>>583854313
My autism as a dragonball nerd demands I read that but I really, really don't want to. I'm probably closed minded for dismissing it out of hat but I don't know man Kid buu being stronger than Buutenks SPECIFICALLY but not buuhan to justify why they need to fuse feels like tying yourself in knots to justify this

>>583854224
A virus is a type of disease retard

>>583854623
No they say he's stronger than Boohan too, Bootenks is just the one who beat Gohan for that comparison in particular. That thread pushes that Kid Boo is the most powerful version of Boo

VSBW, just like Spacebattles, isn't worth using, it's nothing more than the jannies' little secret club.

>>583854731
Then why do they need to fuse to fight Buuhan if Goku could just do that shit on his own?

>>583854449
Goku can't sense Kito no Kaios ki though. Goku is suprised that he has surpassed Kito no Kaio

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>>583854174
>Using the manga to say Buutenks is weaker than Kid Buu
>Pic related is Goku's reaction when he's about to fight Buutenks
>Literally the only time in OG manga he reacted like that when fighting someone. Perhaps the only time in the entire franchise
Are they reading the manga with their eyes closed?

>>583854693
Find me 'the heart virus' in a biology textbook, mongrel. It's a fictional disease. Even in DB it was a new disease that didn't exist before.

>>583854859
He locks on to him in the Cell arc to find Dende and later to have Cell explode on Kaio's planet. You can cope by saying he's actually sensing Bubbles but it would be weird for Goku to never realise that

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Goku says this but when he said the fat majin buu he actually meant the fat majin buu and the skinny majin buu and the muscly majin buu and the muscly majin buu's absorptions of Piccolo, Gotenks, and Gohan but he just wanted to give the kids something to do

>>583854807
Skimming through I see "Goku wouldn't win in a fight of attrition with [Buuhan] since SS3 drains energy and he needs time to charge up to the absolute max ... Goku didn't argue with Elder Kai since he knew his own capabilities and the drawbacks of Super Saiyan three, which is why he opted for fusion."

>>583855269
Didn't he explicitly not know that, though? He walks into the kid buu fight confident that he'll beat his ass and is surprised when ss3 vanishes

>>583855361
I think he does remark on it when he first demonstrates SSJ3, and how he can't sustain it for long in the living world

>>583854754
Show us on the doll where the jannies Power Scaled you, anon

>>583855590
That is true, he does say that, but at the same time he's surprised later when it does vanish so???

>>583855596
Listen, if you want all your discussions to basically be appeals to the same like 3 jannies to agree with you, feel free, it's just not my jam.

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Pan!

Also, isn't SS3>Gohan contradicted by Super Buu's conversation to gohan with "I sensed someone stronger than me and I can't have that, so I came up with a plan to deal with that" Like, did he just not give a single fuck about 3ku?

Also also, if Goku's supposed to be stronger than Gohan, why didn't Buucolo attempt to absorb Goku? The resulting Buuhan is stupidly confident for someone who should know that Goku is way stronger than him right now too.

>>583855950
>Pan if she was fatherless

>>583855039
Again Goku can sense Genki, he learned this for the Spirit Bomb. Goku should be able to IT to 17, 18 and Gero. He should also be able to IT to grass.

>>583855967
>>583856127
Yeah those occurred to me too. I don't see anything directly addressing these in the initial post, it might be brought up over the course of the thread.
>>583856305
No, wtf

>>583856343
There's also Goku's inner monologue when he's fighting fat buu, where he very much so does not imply he's having an easy time of it. Unless the argument that fat buu too is also way stronger than the various super buus somehow

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>>583856128

Also doesn't it just kind of rape the shit out of the narrative that Goku truly believes in the power of the next generation if every single one of them are fodder compared to him

>>583856654
What a rude little lady.
>>583856772
To be fair, the next generation ARE shitters, just for reasons unrelated to their raw power.

Wait are you guys humouring a "SS3 Goku is stronger than Gotenks/Gohan"tard??? Why? There a dozen cases that expose Goku as a Super Buu victim, don't fall for low quality bait

>>583856508
He says "I'm doing almost no damage" which may be more attributable to Boo's physiology. In regards to Fat Boo I do personally lean towards Goku probably being able to beat him with high difficulty, but Super Boo is above SSJ3 tier

>>583856874
It just makes for good conversation, really. I don't think anyone in this thread buys it after all.

>>583856874
No one here believes that, I brought up that it is an increasingly common view in powerscaling circles recently and posted a thread where arguments are made for it, and now we are discussing those arguments but nobody is emotionally invested in that side

>>583856343
>No, wtf
He sense their energy so he can do it.

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>>583855967
Not even that, Goku explicitly says Super Buu is not someone he can handle.

>>583857071
He can't sense their energy
>>583857113
So the way the thread addresses that is that it supposes Goku is talking about a scenario where they leave Boo's body and are still small. So Goku is talking about the smaller version of himself vs Big Boo's Haunt

>>583856772
Yes.

>>583857190
There is no fucking way they seriously believe that holy shit

>>583857190
He can sense their life energy, which is energy.
l

>>583857338
Cell mentions he can do a Genkidama but he can't sense #17 and #18

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>>583856853
would you prefer a respectable young lady like this?

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>>583857190
>So the way the thread addresses that is that it supposes Goku is talking about a scenario where they leave Boo's body and are still small. So Goku is talking about the smaller version of himself vs Big Boo's Haunt

>>583857458
Yes

>>583857406
Of course not. Non-Goku characters also can't sense the Ki of somebody at Nappa level until they are on the same planet. Goku locks onto Kito no Kaio from a different realm, and Kito no Kaio is weaker than Nappa.

>>583857786
So now it's a unique Goku property separate from knowing the Genkidama?

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>>583857492
Well too bad she's just as much a little punk as Pan.

>>583857190
I like how this one comment immediately ended this conversation because like, where do you even go from that. What can I even say about it. Maybe that anon really did have the right idea and this conversation topic is bad

>>583857865
The Fatherless Fusion.

>>583857957
Oh well, I thought it was funny

>>583858007
I mean it is funny but like, in a deeply confusing kind of way. I've seen some weird takes out of this thread but nothing so brazenly bad faith before.

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>>583857979

>>583857858
The ability to sense Genki is a Genkidama knower trait. The ability to sense people at ludicrous ranges is a Instant Transmission knower trait. Cell doesn't know Instant Transmission yet

>>583858346
#17 and #18 are on the same planet as Cell, he doesn't know their location until Kamiccolo fights #17 and Cell deduces that he must be fighting the androids

they sensed Freeza and Cold before they arrived on Earth

>>583858470
Frieza and Cold are... get this... stronger than Nappa.

>>583858171
You know she goes no pan and no bra.

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>>583857957
>I like how this one comment immediately ended this conversation
The only thing of value that comment could bring is a chain of reaction images.

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>>583858583
Actually, this is Nopan.

If there's one thing DBM did NOT get wrong it's the possibility that SS2 might be a bigger boost than a mere x2, which is only supported by non canon databooks that were not written by Toriyama and full of wrong things.

I'm not saying it has to be x10 like Salagir thinks it is, but everyone talking about SS2 like the x2 is established and PROVEN in the manga is just weird and plainly wrong. The way Gohan fucking butchers those Cell Jrs makes me think it's a bit more than that.

Or rather we could say multipliers don't really exist. Because that's the truth here, Goku didn't instantly explode when Frieza hit him while he had Kaioken off, which means all these multipliers don't really apply rigorously. You shouldn't take them seriously.

>>583850089
The monologue didn't change much here, it was not double tapping that kept Babidi alive.

>>583859098
As brought up, I personally just buy Gohan had his rage boost multiplier up. It's kind of fine if you imply SS2's higher though it doesn't really matter that much I don't think. I think it'd matter more if SS2 mattered to a fight outside of Gohan versus cell so there'd be something to contradict. (It features in the Majin Vegeta fight of course but since they're both using it there's not much to say there)

>>583858451
So 17 and 18 have the same amount of Genki as the billions of other earthlings hanging around. And there are numerous statements from Z warriors where they will ask "Is that Goku" which means non-Goku people can't easily tell Ki signatures apart, even the Cell who knows the Instant Transmission can't tell who he hit by Ki signature alone immediately.

>>583858171
That's just bad JP translation since underestimating is somehow synonymous with "licking".

>>583859284
I'm fine with that interpretation. I'm also fine if someone really cares about his x2, what I think is stupid is how discourse seems to have *accepted* x2 as the "canonical" outlook when it's not canon and even if it were it's also fundamentally impossible to actually make multipliers work in that universe.

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>>583859364
Okay. But it's funnier to think that they're lewd. Therefore I will believe that they have the combined lewdness of Pan and Bra.

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>>583859364
licking is an old time word for beat. "you cant lick me" = :you cant beat me" Which creates stuff like picrel

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>>583859364
>since underestimating is somehow synonymous with "licking".
So they really knew what they were doing...

Doesn't seem like anyone talks about Legends or Dokkan anymore.

>>583859098
>Goku didn't instantly explode when Frieza hit him while he had Kaioken off
When did that happen?

>>583859591
they have their on dedicated threads over on /vmg/ so I assume people just go over there. Idk I've never been to that board myself

>>583859578
dumb snek

>>583859639
I assume anon is referring to when Goku was almost completely out of Ki and focusing everything he had on the spirit bomb

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>>583859578
I suspect the erotic undertones are deliberate nowadays

>>583859830
Didn't Dokkan or Legends have a "Pan's first kiss" event?

>>583859801
This and also during the fight assuming Goku didn't have Kaioken x10 up at all times. I'm not saying it's entirely impossible he had a Kaioken from the moment he got out of the healing pod to the Genkidama but it's unlikely.

Frieza was also pretty fucking angry when he headbutted Goku during the Genkidama prep so I'm confident he wasn't going too easy on him. Should've been lethal.

>>583859801
So if Goku can't use KK and the Genkidama at the same time, then that's a plothole and not proof that what is consistent everywhere else isn't true.

>>583859514
>boobs
Now where did those come from? Both Pan and Bra are as flat as boards.

>>583859981
>This and also during the fight assuming Goku didn't have Kaioken x10 up at all times
Kito no Kai basical states the opposite

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>>583860043
Anon there's no stated contradiction between using KK and the spirit bomb at the same time. He wasn't using kaioken because he put almost everything he had into the x20 and is pretty much completely out of power afterwords, so it's fairly unlikely he has x10 up. Especially since he's being ragdolled so hard.

>>583860251
He states Goku was already using the Kaioken to fight 50% Frieza at that point, not that he was using the Kaioken from the start of the fight and at every single moment of the fight. Like, if you reread the Vegeta fight, you'll see Goku's Kaioken turning on and off depending on when he gets hit or not and Goku has to manually activate it from time to time. Now, I know the big twist against Frieza is that he was using the Kaioken without us ever seeing it so you have to assume he's a lot better at it and it can be invisible but even then, you have to assume Kaioken is on for THE ENTIRE duration of the beatdown and doesn't get canceled at any time when he gets hit or else he'd be a goner (that's a 10% power situation).

Basically Kaioken is kinda stupid with these numbers. So is Super Saiyan. The numbers suck.

>>583860525
>Basically Kaioken is kinda stupid with these numbers. So is Super Saiyan. The numbers suck.
Kaioken being full incremental multipliers was always going to get really stupid really fast. Especially since Goku's been absent for most of Namek, so you can't just go "oh yeah he's using kaioken x5 now isn't that amazing"

>>583860276
>Anon there's no stated contradiction between using KK and the spirit bomb at the same time.
I felt that way but I thought the anime pulled it from something as opposed to inventing it.
>He wasn't using kaioken because he put almost everything he had into the x20 and is pretty much completely out of power afterwords, so it's fairly unlikely he has x10 up.
It's like the exact same situation Goku was in against Vegeta after the KKx4 though, barely able to stand and desperate for a Spirit Bomb, but that Goku could still use KKx2. So I don't know why we would assume this Goku can't use KKx10 which is the equivalent of KKx2 in the Vegeta fight. Or even KKx4.6
>>583860525
>Like, if you reread the Vegeta fight, you'll see Goku's Kaioken turning on and off depending on when he gets hit or not and Goku has to manually activate it from time to time.
Sure but this is before Goku explicitly activates the KK without telling the audience at least twice. Even if some punches knock him out of KKx10 he can just turn it back on silently for the next one. It seems silly but silent Kaiokens are just a thing in Namek and were before Goku got out of the pod.

>>583860997
It introduces a lot of weird situations. Like, Goku needs to be REALLY on edge and concerned with his stamina. You can say "okay Goku didn't have his Kaioken on against Vegeta but didn't get dismembered when he got hit because it only made him half as strong", but you can't really say "alright Goku had to maintain this x10 multiplier at all times without ever breaking focus or else he's fucking dead".

fucked up how all of the insane powerscaling post Namek comes directly from Toriyama going "you know what it would be cool if Goku was using Kaioken uhhhhhh ten, yeah that's a nice round number"

>>583861640
Powerscaling was not a smart thing to do in the first place, it's inherently anti excitement. For powerscaling to work you need a very balanced, tight system, which means boring numbers (even before x10). You can only get so far with this. Think of it like trying to balance a videogame, it's not that easy to do, now try to balance a videogame but your job is also to make the numbers on the weapons EXCITING and APPEALING.

>>583861856
No I need to understand how strong characters are to understand the stakes in a gag manga turned fighting manga

>>583862031
Throwing numbers is fine I guess, what's not fine is how obsessed people got about them. Even decades later.

>>583861286
Goku is at the point where he can turn on KKx10 without saying the word or even hesitating or giving any sign of effort. I think even he can wear KKx5 like it's his base at that point and that's assuming again Goku didn't run from the pod in KKx10 which is what I think, shit isn't a big deal to *him* anymore

>>583862169
It's human nature to want things to make sense, accepting that a guy is just vaugely stronger than some other guy offends our autism, we want to know exactly how much stronger the other guy is

>>583861640
It's a good thing. Fuck that Ubisoft '3% more energy damage' game nonsense

>>583862261
>>583862169
I don't care about hard numbers as such, though when they are present, I will use them.

>>583862394
>Ubisoft now owns everything after the 21st WMAT and before the Sayians arrive

>>583862708
What? Power jumps were big in OG DB too.

>>583862394
you've said this before but what specifically are you thinking of when you say this btw

>>583862770
You had very tired, almost defeated Piccolo (lost to 1 Goku headbutt) telling the entire crew he could kill them all even though he was kinda unsettled by Krillin's performance.

It's not so much that the power jumps are big and more that the power hierarchy only has to make for exciting drama and story. That's the real rule here.

>>583862812
I just think it's lame when people want big climatic power ups to still be small numbers like 10% or some nonsense. It feels like they're thinking of balancing a live service game instead of giving impact to a moment in the story.

>>583862923
>he was kinda unsettled by Krillin's performance.
I think it's overselling it when his worry was 'Taking over the world won't be as easy as I thought'. He's thinking in term of conquest with the general level being higher than he thought, not a single battle against anyone specific.

>>583863115
Even with this cope I don't think Goku was SO much stronger than the entire crew that a single headbutt from him with a gaping hole in his chest and 4 broken limbs is more than what the squad could do

it's just about cool factor really

>>583862998
I assumed you were referring to some specific super powerup like TUI or perfect blue which is a tiny sidegrade or something

>>583862770
Hmm. Not really. Since we get hard numbers to know what being twice as strong as somebody looks like later we know Goku didn't more than double between the 21st and 22nd and then didn't more than triple from the 22nd to one shotting Drum.

>>583863220
In that tournament? Goku was dunking everyone so hard, it doesn't surprise me.
Even Piccolo himself hardly had the upper hand in a straight fight.

>>583862998
It's best to not even do numbers. "Character who failed at defeating the villain can now defeat the villain" is typically a pretty simple and effective way at showing how far they grew in power, and DB worked with that formula since before it introduced power levels, and after it abandoned them. Even something as simple as "I don't think fusing with Vegeta would be enough to deal with Beerus, but SSG has a chance" says more than "SSG multiplied my power by a billion".

>>583863220
>Just defending blatant plot holes because it's cool
Death

>>583863374
He literally became stronger than his Oozaru self, which is a 10x boost in that time frame since his Oozaru self could be killed by Roshi but Roshi couldn't do shit to Piccolo.

>>583863430
Piccolo was actually a pretty great match for Goku, he even had Goku on the backfoot enough that Kami intervened to help. Oh yeah, and Kami could stop one serious punch from Piccolo, so even if you claim everyone else sucks, Kami should be a significant factor.
But yeah Piccolo only started losing after he wasted his stamina in that big explosion move. Dude was a menace.

>>583863456
I don't think there's only one right way to do it. Toriyama introduced scouters and used them well for what he wanted to do, they served multiple purposes (helping villains detect the heroes, highlighting the differences between Ki sensing and aliens using tech...) and became incredibly iconic and cool (number rising and scouter blowing up is incredible). Then he dropped them after they served their purpose.

>>583863543
>Roshi could kill the guy whose Kamehameha perfectly matched his, but now that guy is 10 times stronger.
Yamcha and Krillin can't sense ki yet, they don't know anything.

>>583863541
If you haven't noticed Dragon Ball has never been a work concerned with "plot holes". Different stories have different needs and strengths. When it comes to Dragon Ball, you do NOT need *very* consistent powerlevels. You just need them to not be so inconsistent that they outright break your immersion as you read it, which is what Toriyama did for the most part.

>>583863717
If you go that way, then Goku went from being able to break a car to being able to turn the moon to dust, which is a billion time power boost.

>>583863541
It's not a plothole, it's storytelling, faggot.

>>583863795
>This fighting manga doesn't generally concern itself with who is stronger
You ever notice how even as Super remake is coming out we are discussing DB and not Super, and Daima and GT only ever get passing jabs. It's weird sorry where was I.
Oh! If I accepted what you said, I would be accepting an insult to Dragonball

>>583863991
Most criticism and discourse about super has been done to death because it came out with the internet. A lot of the conversations I've had on here are novel because most people simply don't look at Z with a very critical eye because it came out so long ago