origins scene where brock ask red how many badges he had and chose his team based on his answer

BW2 and Pokemon Origins. In BW2 Cheren complains that he can't use his usual team when you face him in a gym battle, and in Origins Brock sees Red has no badges and so uses only two Pokemon.

>>59709806
Origins? Games are meant to be piss easy and give young scrubs a feeling of being special. With the Disneyfication of everything, they don't want people to feel like losers. I mean, the new recruits at gamefreak and younger generations feel Green (Blue) Oak were assholes and discouraged them from playing the game. If that isn't an indication of the series forcing itself to be softer idk what is

>>59709806
Having an official league be so unstandardized actively breaks what little world building that exists. The alterative is that Brock, Falkner, Roxanne, and every other gym leader in a "first town" is a complete and total shitter who should have their license revoked and contrarywise anyone who happens to start in a "late town" get fucked over. The idea of there being some towns that you "start" and that the difficulty of gyms so happen to scale upwards as you move farther away from that town only works from the perspective of game balance,
And when you rematch gym leaders, they're all more often than not around the same level meaning the first game leaders all randomly took steroids and the late game leaders just decided to slack off.
really the entire concept of "levels" only works as an abstraction.

>>59709821
>I mean, the new recruits at gamefreak and younger generations feel Green (Blue) Oak were assholes and discouraged them from playing the game
In all seriousness is this even true? I find it hard to believe someone (even 8 year olds) would feel discouraged from playing a game due to a character being "mean". I feel like it's another case of older people being overprotective or babying younger people.

>>59709831
Levels already broke down as early as Gen 2 when Lance and Bruno's teams are somehow lower-level than they were in Gen 1. As you said, levels should just be thought of as an rough approximation of how strong someone is and not literally.

>>59709819
In BW2's case that doesn't mean that Cheren uses a weaker team because the player has no badges. It could just as well mean that his gym is designated the first for trainers to challenge so he would use that team regardless of how many badges you had when you came to the gym.

>>59709817
people have been headcanoning this long before

>>59709831
It's not just gym leaders, it's every other trainer in the area too. Fags apparently think that you have to move to another town when your Pokemon gain a couple levels because you're "too strong for the third town" or whatever the fuck.

tldr it's just autists that don't understand that video games are video games, it's the Pokemon equivalent of "why doesn't Mario walk around the pipes?"

>>59709806
Cheren literally says so in BW2, and HGSS implies it when all the gym leaders have complete and fully evolved teams when you rematch them

>>59709910
>Cheren literally says so in BW2,
No he doesn’t

>>59709806
it just makes sense, since not all trainers are born in Palette Town or it's regional equivalent
i also believe that regions have way more than 8 gyms endorsed by the pokemon league, but the ones you see in the game are just the 8 put there along the path of your journey

>>59709923
>i also believe that regions have way more than 8 gyms endorsed by the pokemon league, but the ones you see in the game are just the 8 put there along the path of your journey
Galar is the only one where this is the case and even then only 8 of the 18 total gyms are a part of the actual Gym Challenge at a time. The anime also has a lot of extra gyms that Ash never visits, but that's its own thing.

>>59709941
Yeah, I believe all regions are like this. And maybe the gym leaders come to a conference every two or three years and battle to see if they get to stay in the rotation.
OR, there are just a lot of officially recognized gyms, because realistically, these regions have hundreds of towns and cities.

you need 8 badges, and gym leaders need to have 8 difficulty levels of pokemon prepared to challenge all levels of trainers. And you can battle more than 8, just to flex (or for more training)
like Gary, pictured
>inb4 anime canon
no, its my head-canon, which means even less

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>>59709993
ahem
like Gary, now pictured

I think this was mentioned as a thing in the Pokemon Special manga. That one's very dubious with the canon in general though, what with half the Kanto gym leaders being Team Rocket agents instead of just Giovanni and all sorts of other little things. But, the concept makes sense in terms of balancing game mechanics and logical reality of how a league system would have to work, so people started headcanoning it.

>>59709861
>In all seriousness is this even true? I find it hard to believe someone (even 8 year olds) would feel discouraged from playing a game due to a character being "mean". I feel like it's another case of older people being overprotective or babying younger people.
There was an actual market study they did internally and said that was the case. From my own research on japanese social media, it always happens to be younger people who feel this way. Like younger zoomers and alphas. Couple that with the desire to sanitize the franchise of anything remotely serious or interesting and you have a Disney property basically

>>59709819
>BW2 and Pokemon Origins.
Origins isn't canon to the game world so that's irrelevant. Looks like BW2 is where this retarded stuff started.

>>59709806
Blue already uses a nerfed team as Gym Leader 8 compared to what he had as a Champion in Gold and Silver.

>>59709806
Gen 2, where all the Kanto gym leaders have badge 8 teams.
Kids starting from Pallet are not fighting Brock with a full team of 50s

>>59709806
Pretty simple logic.

1. Not all trainers start their journey in the player's home town. If they did, you would see lots of people there or mention being there. This does not happen. Thus, gym leaders reasonably need to be prepared to fight as any, or at least most badge numbers.
2. Gym leaders are always spoken of with respect. Someone with a level 16 shitmon is not getting this, considering 80% of the region is stronger than them. You would never hear gym leaders being referred to with any reverence besides how fuckable they are if the team they fought you with was the team they actually had, and they should be replaced by literally fukkin anyone from later in the game anyways if this were the case.

Those are universal and apply to every single gym leader you fight before badge 6. The only region that approaches this any different is Galar, which actually, formally does have a numbered circuit you are required to go through... but that is also a game where every single gym leader bar Opal also has an Elite 4 analogue team, proving they have multiple teams.

We also have individual confirmations in a few games, like the gen 5 leaders fighting the Plasma sages at the end, and Cheren explicitly mentioning his other team, the gen 2 Kanto leaders all having a team fitting a 7th or 8th badge, or Koga being able to join the Elite 4, while Sabrina or Blaine did not.

>>59710848
>Gym leaders are always spoken of with respect.
The Striaton gym leaders are mocked for being worth shit.

>>59709819
It goes all the way back to gen 2, even if isn't officially stated. You fight the Kanto gym leaders in the post-game, and they all have teams with levels in 40s and 50s. For the ones you'd fight late in the game in gen 1, their teams are roughly similar level, but some kid starting from Pallet Town to get his first badge would never be able to beat Brock if he was using his gen 2 team. So logically that would mean that Brock uses stronger pokemon against the gen 2 protagonist who has already proven himself by having beaten the Johto gyms and the Elite Four than he does against some fresh trainer with a level 10 Bulbasaur.

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>>59709806
GSC.
Unless you're stupid enough to think everyone facing Brock is going against his team of lv.50+ Pokemon.

>>59710837
>>59711004
>>59711080
But none of the Kanto leaders have different teams depending on how many badges you have in GSC or HGSS either. It only proves that they have two teams. One for any normal gym challenger and one for going all out.
We've had 4 games and 4 remakes of games where you had flexible gym orders and they've never had gym leaders adjust their teams based on the number of badges you have while both SwSh and SV outright says they don't do this. If you live in Fuchsia you could just take public transport to a weaker gym.

>>59711169
8+ badges already prove that there's no reason for them to hold back against you in Kanto.

>>59709806
Cheren in b2w2
>>59709817
>>59709821
I really don't get what that poketuber was on.
>>59710779
Neither that other one.

>>59711169
>It only proves that they have two teams
so they have different teams, gotcha

>>59711169
you're league champ by then

>>59711169
You've entered the realm where you are now arguing against Gamefreak's competence as a developer and immense laziness, while simultaneously proving they have multiple teams in your haste to move the goalpost.

Yes. Gym leaders should have incremental teams. Yes, random trainers in the middle of caves should have partially damaged or statused pokemon. Yes, there should be a representation of trainers having X number of pokemon, but only using 2 of them for the fight with you. Yes, there should be a way to visualize using a higher level pokemon, but having it hold back, beyond just lowering the level outright.
Welcome to problems that are only problems because Gamefreak doesn't give a shit and you'll buy it anyways, and the kinds of shit that you could do trivially that would massively improve the series if only from a worldbuilding perspective, that Gamefreak can't/won't do.

>>59711169
>SwSh
SwSh LITERALLY does, because every gym leader has a team to participate in the finals, while simultaneously holding down whatever gym position they have been assigned this season, which EXPLICITLY changes from year to year, you stupid twat.

>>59711930
>SwSh LITERALLY does,
No, it doesn’t, gym challengers are forced to fight each leader in a specific order

>>59711941
And that order changes between years, they even make a big point out of Kabu never once getting rotated to the second half of gyms, and him taking pride in being the gatekeeper of the upper league.
They LITERALLY spell this out for you, stop jerking off to animals and children for five fucking minutes and READ you dumb bastard.

>>59711956
>And that order changes between years,
So? They don’t need to keep 8 different teams on hand for a single year.

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>>59709806
A small, unofficial example of this was Misty—now a more professional leader—who faced the Alola group using only Psyduck, but brought out a Mega Gyarados for Ash.

Yes, it was more of a demonstration, but it shows that Gym Leaders possess powerful Pokémon and, depending on their own judgment, may or may not use them against challengers.

>>59709806
It was simple logic. If you are just starting out in Saffron city, are you expected to huff it all the way over to Pewter city first? Is Brock only ever allowed to use two Pokemon? Would he just get steam rolled if some kid just skipped him and went to Misty first? Obviously the Gyms should adjust their teams when the challenge merits it.

>>59709806
In sword and shield the gym leaders are actually elite 4 level. But they use weaker teams for the gym chalengers

>>59711961
This is true
They throw that fifth badge team from last year into the trash compactor, total mon death, no survivors.

>>59709806
probably since gen 2 when you fight kanto gym leaders

Best course of action
>Seperate E4/Champ challenge from the traditional championship league we know from the anime
>Have gym battlers who got all the badges enter said championship league to enter the E4/Champ challenge
>Have every gym leader locked until post game as now gym leaders can lose their position if they lose thrice in a row (not thrice in general) or if they go bankrupt
>Gym leaders are former challengers that won a championship league, beat the e4, handpicked by e4/champ as nepobabies, or have just enough fuck you money
>Have entire game be a genuine story like Colo or xd but with the mainline catching mechanics
There, I fixed it. I think

>>59711169
That's just because GF sucks at gamedev and is lazy. The game is designed for you to fight the gyms in a specific order, so the gym leaders give you a team to fight based on that order. People love to overstate the "flexibility" of variable gym leader battles in some gens but
1. the difference between them is typically only a few levels
2. the intended order is baked into the game on the screen where you see your badges

If Brock has a team for lv.1 shitters with no badges, and a team for fighting against champions, then common sense tells you he also has a team for people with 3 and 4 gym badges and so on. Origins works under this frame work because it only makes sense, GF doesn't, at least in SV, because they're dogshit devs too lazy to make 8 teams that scale with the player.

>>59711967
>If you are just starting out in Saffron city, are you expected to huff it all the way over to Pewter city first?
Yes
you already have to go past Viridian City to get to Pewter City even though Viridian City has the strongest gym

>>59712801
>The game is designed for you to fight the gyms in a specific order
no they aren't

>>59712801
GF made Kitakami scale with the player depending on when you went there, so we might get properly scaled gyms next gen.

>>59711964
XY also mentioned that Valerie only uses her Trick Room strategy against strong trainers, so that's another example of gym leaders deliberately going easy on newfags instead of just steamrolling them with their strongest mons.

>>59712886
They only scale for whether or not you beat the E4, there's no dynamic scaling anywhere in SV which is one of its biggest issues.

>>59712896
>ashnime shit
no one cares

>>59712868
That's just because Giovanni is too busy to run his gym.

>>59712919
Both examples are from the ashnime, retardbro.

>>59711928
>Yes, random trainers in the middle of caves should have partially damaged or statused pokemon
"Random trainers" love and care for their pokémon to the point they keep them fully healed and free of status through item use (or use Repels, like MANY NPC's note they're using).

>>59712801
Gameplay wise i don't believe starting with say the ice type gym in sv would be very good even if they had dynamic scaling. The player would litterally need to ignore everything between the route and if you were to take any sort of xp taken into account it would have a cascading effect into the rest of the game, and purely level based scaling also has this issue depending on how it works along with a bunch of other issue like not allowing the player to overlevel which prevents players from getting stuck and allowing a way forward which is never happening considering how wide of an audience the games have.

>>59709806
Basically it started when they added gym leader rematches.

>>59710779
This anon gets it. Getting beaten by Red and Blue in RBY was the kick the gym leaders needed to double down on their training. That's why their better in GSC. Badge scaling is and was always cope for the "muh worldbuilding" autists.

>>59709864
Levels were always a gameplay mechanic early on, but within a game itself it still informs you of how strong they are.
The Kanto leaders (not including Blue) are all weaker than the Elite 4 because well, if they weren't, why aren't they part of the E4?
Janine ends up having lower levels because she's a relative newbie.

>>59711169
This has been my headcanon since gen 2. Don't know why this is such a controversial take.

>>59709806
>calls it a fanfic
>his own picture proves it right
lmao, Norman doesn't even say he will go full power, only that he wants to fight when you are strong, that doesn't disprove the test-nature of the battle. The only oddity here is Clair who is a sore loser and a weak bitch

>>59715370
>I can adjust my team to people with 0 badges but I won’t because….uh….I just don’t want to ok?
Learn how to read fanfictard

>>59715375
Yes, that makes sense when you have at least 10 brain cells, but since it's not the case for you I will explain it real fast. The weaker the pokemon are the less they can express themselves, this isn't just lore it's even mechanical too, a battle with your rival where you have level 5 pokemon is shit, one where you have them at level 50 is more interesting and lets you two express how you raised your pokemon better.
"I want to test you when you are stronger" makes perfect sense even if he's not going all out, you are just genuinely too stupid to understand.

>another autistic argument where what makes sense clashes with what can be programmed for the main character's journey

just bring another coom thread

>>59715383
>It’s literally my job to adjust my team to battle pokemon that express themselves less, but I win’t because uhhhhhh I just don’t want to ok?
>also I won’t battle you at 1 badge, 2 badges, or 3 badges even though it’s my job to adjust my team for different badge counts it has to be precisely 4 badges because uhhhhhh I said so!
Your fanfic isn’t holding up, fanfictard.

>>59709806
Only way to even make sense of the concept.

>>59715375
Norman doesn't want to give his kid a freebie baby badge and wants them to come back when it's an actual fight and not a tutorial. Seems reasonable to me.

>>59715403
Then why not make it 7 badges? After all, he’s supposed to be able to adjust his team all the way up to challengers with 7 badges, right, fanfictard?

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>>59715412
It's funny you say that because his rematch team is actually perfect for being the 7th badge, and this is only his first rematch team.
Realistically the actual reason for Norman's placement is because he's the gatekeeper for the Surf HM (well Wally's dad is but anyway) by this point you've explored all of the north and east sides of Hoenn and beating him gets you to the second half of the region. It'd be bad game design to make you backtrack for JUST the Norman fight when there isn't even Victory Road or any other plot point nearby to justify it like in RBY.
This is actually the reason for a lot of the set (or at least intended) order for a large number of games from the HM era. It's weird to me that you keep digging your heels in about this plot point despite plenty of contrary evidence existing.

>>59715457
But why would he be the gatekeeper of Surf if it’s possible for trainers to start in Fortree or Mossdeep or Sootopolis and the gym leaders of those towns can adjust their teams down to them, fanfictard? Your fanfic doesn’t sound very consistent.

>>59712801
>origins
drop poketubers

>>59715389
At that point he's pulling the dad card.
Considering the shit other gym leaders get away with, having your kid wait longer than strictly necessary to have a battle with you is pretty tame.

>>59712941
This
Giovanni is an outlier in that he has outright locked his gym and refuses challenges from anyone that doesn't have 7 badges. Outliers exist in any system, and Giovanni is an outlier for a number of reasons.

And Giovanni is himself a case for multiple teams, since his team changes between battles, and were his Celadon team his Leader team, he'd be a joke for insisting on being the last leader a person fought, being weaker than Koga, Sabrina, and Blaine.
Even in gen 1, there's evidence for multiple teams for gym leaders.

>>59715403
>>59715464
Actually, when you think about it.
Getting Surf from Norman makes sense, because how else are you supposed to get to Dewford, then Mauville?
Rusturf Tunnel is unfinished, nobody uses it.
Mr. Briney helps YOU for saving Peeko.
But how does Wally, or Brendan/May reach Slateport? They aren't on the ship with you, and Mr. Briney waits in Dewford for you to finish. There's no way they could use him, and Wally even gets to Mauville before you do.

If Wally, and Brendan/May actually fought Norman first or second, then get Surf, suddenly it makes sense.
They don't use it in battle for the same reason they don't have other essential HMs on their team, they have HM slaves they just don't battle with.
And, clearly, they aren't strong enough to beat Norman's badge 5 team by the time you fight them afterwards. So thus, the team they beat was appropriate for a badge 1 or 2 fight.

>>59715403
Nta but you're mistaken. In Emerald after you beat the Gym Leaders you can call them on the Pokénav. They all talk about how they need time to train before opening up their gyms again. A few are outright explicit in needing to prepare for the player.

There are no other teams. The Gym Leaders were just complacent and the player gave them the kick in the rear they needed to git gud.

If you start your journey in Fortree sucks to be you. You gotta find a weaker gym if you want to get some badges. Life ain't fair and that's okay. Brendan/May beat Norman at his best.

>>59715464
He doesn't gatekeep Surf, anyone can use and learn it, the player character just conveniently gets it from someone right after beating Norman.
I see you're trying to mix game design and lore for no other reason than to be obtuse, but the fact is RSE was designed around the player going in a certain order, hence the roadblocks and the order of which they get HMs. That game design doesn't suddenly undo the well supported fact that Gym leaders adjust their teams, it's just another symptom of GF being lazy game designers.

>>59715709
>the well supported fact that [FANFIC]

>>59715712
yeah it was so weird when you go and fight any gym leader a second time they use the exact same team you first encounter them with

>>59715717
>it’s weird that gym leaders train their teams to be stronger as time passes

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>>59715722
>>59715607
>There are no other teams.
>it’s weird that gym leaders train their teams to be stronger as time passes
Can you guys explain why over the course of 2 years, Elesa's Pokemon only ever gained a single level between BW and BW2, and her Zebstrika somehow swapped genders? She only has a single team that she raises over time, so how is this possible?
And how could she, at the same time, also have several competitive teams ready for PWT?

>>59715751
I can't believe Elesa was straight in BW but turned gay in BW2

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Fanficsisters what the FUCK is this

I don't understand why OP is so averse to the idea of Gym Leaders having multiple teams. What grand fantasy of pokemon is being ruined by this? Its clear the pokemon company themselves aren't opposed to the idea given it was already pointed out SwSh all but confirms this with its own gym leaders and even if you want to howl non-canon at things like Origins it was still an approved product they put out so its clear they don't consider the idea antithetical to the brand.

So
Gym Leaders are of relative political significance, yes? It varies a bit, but they can roughly be attributed the status of a mayor or other local leader, yes? This is frequently shown. It's not explicitly stated whether they earn some form of payment for being a gym leader, but plenty of them have no alternative source of income apparant. How does Brock keep the lights on? What does Morty do to eat? Some of them even have pretty expensive seeming lifestyles, where the FUCK does Valerie's money come from? You have any idea how much high end clothing like that costs? She isn't manufacturing it, as far as we can see. So, there must be a degree of social finance going on. Meaning there's a financial incentive to be the gym leader.

So what sense does it make, for this person of local leadership significance, making money, to be a dipshit with two pokemon under level 15? Does that mean random hikers and fishermen with 3 or 4 pokemon teams all in the 30s should have even more social pull? Why don't they?
Why are random government employees, wage slaves, and literal toddlers carrying around teams stronger than the first gym leader in a region? Why haven't Pokemaniacs having a yiff party in a cave forced out the first or second gym leader to build pokefucker HQ somewhere with running water instead? Why are there Ace Trainers with teams in the 50s bumming around in the wilderness, when they could be concentrated in cities after bumping off whoever is holding the gym? Why is there a single gym in the region with a team under level 60? Why isn't the league in a constant state of chaos, where leader turnover rate is so high that the Leaders basically entirely cycle every few days? Why don't the gym trainers from gym 8 just go kick the shit out of gym 5 and make that their gym? Why don't yhe evil teams regularly occupy these gyms via legitimate takeovers, and start sponging up whatever money and control such positions would offer?

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>>59715767
If OP really thinks that Gym leaders don't have multiple teams then he's retarded. That being said there's a difference between them having multiple teams and them adjusting theirs based on the number of badges you have. Galar doesn't do this canonically since their challenge is a set order.

>>59715767
>What grand fantasy of pokemon is being ruined by this?
I wonder the same with every piece of fake lore people share.

>>59712871
they objectively and literally are. you know this, so what so you want exactly?

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>>59715950

>>59709806
it's just the most logical assumption. why else would a gym LEADER have only two NFE pokémon?

>>59715957
The regional flying expert's strongest pokemon is a pidgeotto below level ten, none of the random shitters later with level thirty noctowls or fearows or whatever are a canonical competitor to the guy with a brand new pidgey on his one and only team.

Reminder that OP is the same kind of autist who would seethe and shit his pants if GF added level scaling to 'fix' this """problem"""

The moral here is: Never engage with turbo spergs, it isn't worth it.

>>59715793
> the FUCK does Valerie's money come from? You have any idea how much high end clothing like that costs? She isn't manufacturing it, as far as we can see.
She's a famous designer actually. There's shit tons of money in that.

>>59715570
That's a gay assumption completely ignoring the fact that Norman is not an omnipotent, omniscient God and cannot logicaly guess that the Rusturf tunnel is closed.
Also, obviously there's a way to Dewford and Slateport because besides Briney helping the player out of obligation he's just a fucking sailor and transporting people through the see is his job.

On top of that traveling between gyms is a part of League challenge on it's own and if Norman's kid cannot figure out how to get through unfinished tunnel or the sea then suck to be them because this is what every trainer is going through. Wally with his totally-not-asthma somehow dragged his sorry ass through the ashened fields just to collect badges and he somehow did it.

>>59716617
>Reminder that OP is the same kind of autist who would seethe and shit his pants if GF added an objectively terrible feature into the games
Uh…yeah?

>>59715793
A lot of Gym leaders have either explicit or implied jobs or side activities. Also their political influence really vary - Watson is literally mayor of Mauville that greatly expanded it but someone like Bugsy seems to just be a person popular among bug catcher while Kurt is the elderly peace keeper of Azalae and fucking Giovanni is mostly unknown in his own city.

>>59716693
Bodied that fanfic freak.

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>>59709817

>>59717120
Origins isn't canon.

>>59717120
>Uses origins as evidence for game lore.
Lol. Lmao even.

>>59716693
>omniscient God and cannot logicaly guess that the Rusturf tunnel is closed.
Yes, he can.
Because the Rusturf tunnel never opened.
It was cancelled. This is common knowledge amongst NPCs. Many people talk about it.
He doesn't have to guess if it's closed, because it's common knowledge spoken about by all kinds of people, that the Rusturf Tunnel was canceled because of concerns about the machinery harming the Whismur.
It didn't suddenly close. It was, as expected, not open, because incomplete tunnels tend to not be open.

>Gym leaders are weaker than random trainers in the midgame
LMAO

>>59709806
Explain why do they have stronger Pokemon in rematches

>>59709806
I have to wonder.
Is it insecurity?
The idea that you only beat a Leader's weak team when you beat them is a slight to some perceived power fantasy in a goddamn pokemon game?

>>59717191
Ahem... >>59715607 Seriously the gym leaders themselves explain why.

>>59717198
>The fanficsister can't defend her position so resorts to calling people insecure.
Nice projection.

>>59715389
>Norman's job is to fight trainers with less than four badges specifically
Source for your headcanon? Oh wait there's nothing
>also I won't test you until you are strong enough to enable a decent test, I want this thing with my child to be nice
Yes, the fact you think you can twist this into something that sounds unreasonable only makes you look retarded, buddy.

>>59717223
I was only raising it as a possibility.
But you appear to have confirmed it.
Sad.

Don't reply to any retard who genuinely thinks any gym leader employed by the Pokémon League is magnitudes weaker than dozens and dozens and dozens of completely random trainers you meet after said leader.