PS2 - World's first 128 bit consoleDreamcast - Mulatto 96 bit 5-th gen reject console roleplaying as 128 bits
>>12586265Dreamcast is a gen 5.5 console
Dreamcast-PS2 is problably the biggest gap technology wise between 2 retro console of the "same generation" (Neo geo is an arcade board not a true console)Most PS2 big games would never work on Dreamcast without ultra major downgrade (to the point where it basically not the same game anymore)Sony was always so ahead of the competitions in terms of technology PS1,PS2,PSP were such great piece of hardware (they screw up with the PS3 tough)
>>12586332Saturn and PS1 are not that different, each with pros and cons but still largely both acknowledged as 5th gen, with Saturn releasing first.
>>12586265>>12586268>>12586332This 5.5 gen is fake news. Dreamcast outshined the PS2 with certain multiplat games like DOA2. Shenmue, Soul Calibur and Sonic Adventure is also very impressive. Dreamcast also had VGA output. Meanwhile the PS2 was still using outdated AV cables. No VGA option. Gamecube at least had digital out, which made me happy to have purchased the Insurrection Industries Carby.Also just to make the piratefags seethe:Piracy Killed The Dreamcast™
>>12586362Pretty image quality will never be superior to pure power that truly impact gameplay Shadow of the Colossus could never work on Dreamcast (or GameCube/Xbox)
>>12586442Dreamcast? Maybe. Gamecube? I wouldn't be so sure. But as far as Xbox is concerned, it is certainly more powerful than the PS2, it's laughable to think otherwise.
>>12586342PS1 released at the same time yet is significantly more powerfull Sony engineering is just another level
>>12586453Shadow of the Colossus could NOT work on Xbox
>>12586442SoC hardly ran on the Ps2 in the first place.>>12586461This is a bad example.
>>12586332
>>12586332>Dreamcast-PS2 is problably the biggest gap technology wise between 2 retro console of the "same generation"Pc-engine/Turbografix and Snes.
>>12586491>SoC hardly ran on the Ps2 in the first placeThen it would not work at all on Xbox with it's shitty CPU
>>12586502>Pc-engine/Turbografix and SnesAbsolutely notPC engine has a better CPU and more on-screen colorsQuite embarassing for the SNES to be bodied by a 3 years old console
Another high quality thread by the file.png brigade
>>12586509I disagree with the anon you’re replying too, and I like the PCE way more than most people here; but “better CPU” is very debatable, and being able to display more colors is pointless when the overall palette is much smaller than SNES (512 vs 32,000). The contrast between the colors would be too low for the full 481 onscreen colors of the PCE to be of much use. As a result, most games do not display as many colors on screen as the average SNES game.The Colecovision and 5200 are technically considered to be part of the same console generation as the Channel F. Those would be much better picks for the topic at hand.
>>12586629>between 2 retro consoleRead more carefully next time
>>12586265What was the tiny screen on the DC controller even used for?
>>12587016I wonder
>>12587016
>>12587028Just like the wii u, bad idea a hud on the game's screen is better
>>12586265And yet the Dreamcast was a better system
>auster still trying to force his 'dreamcast is 5th gen' shitposthilarious
>>12587038Except 2, 3 and CV don't have HUDs on any platform (except if you use some tools on PC, but that's not the intended experience)So in that case, it's an additional feature
>>12586362>Dreamcast outshined the PS2 with certain multiplat gamesDevelopers had yet no full understanding of the PS2 hardware, and these are just ports developed specifically with the DC hardware in mind.>Piracy Killed The Dreamcast™PS2 has one of the highest game ratio per console sold>Dreamcast also had VGA output.Waste of resources. We all know how dumb and delusional Sega has always been.>Meanwhile the PS2 was still using outdated AV cablesThe original Xbox 360 came with AV cables. Also the standard cable for Xbox and Gamecube
>>12586332ngl the dreamcast was a fun gimmick in the wait for the arrival of the true next-gen games and consoles.
>>12586268Nope lol
>>12587065What's delusional is calling the Dreamcast 5.5 gen. The games released for it, especially Seaman debunks your theory.
>>12587123Did you see how poorly DC handle Unreal Tournament?Now imagine 2002 games and beoyndIf a Geforce256 can't run something like NFSU properly, imagine the Dreamcast.
the dc had better looking games than the ps2, that's for sure also hi auster!
Why is this discussion still a thing?GTA3 and VC were both ported to the DC with barely any downgrades outside of less cars and civilians.>Inb4 current devs have better resources/knowledgeNo amount of optimization is gonna make the Ps1 or N64 run those games buddy.
>>12587219>GTA3 and VC were both ported to the DCThis argument is a fallacy because any retro game can be optmized with nowadays modern optimization tools, design and technologies (and plenty of free time, ofc) if developers chose to work on them again.This only proves that there is a lot of room for optimization and better graphics in any game that can be ported to the Dreamcast.Here's your RE4 with the Dreamcast's 5.5th gen graphics capabilities.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nISMhocHvbk
Trolling outside of /b/, btw
i think the fact people have ported GTAIII/VC to dreamcast means it's closer to 6th gen than 5th gen, even if they are with some downgrades and sometimes half the framerate. gta3 on say the n64 would be unrecognisable and require basically all of its' assets be heavily modified, while this homebrew port to dreamcast is fully playable and could have come out as it is back in the day
>>12587363it is true that it's hard to compare a game made with strict time limits and poorer tools back then vs. a passion project with modern tools and unlimited time. if they released gta3 on dc back then it's likely it'd have less optimisation put into it than the current enthusiast project, unless perhaps if it was targeting the dreamcast first like it was originally planned to be
>>12587219>GTA3 and VC were both ported to the DC with barely any downgrades except for these downgrades lol
>>12586265In these last 3 months I tried the Dreamcast on emulator and before I knew it existed and didn't care much, I think the first time I heard of a dreamcast was when I started getting interested in retro Games in 2014 and never considered a "great console", it was jsut there.Now after finishing some games:>Resident Evil code veronica>Slave Zero>Dynamite cop>Soul reaver>SpidermanAnd many more I don't quote because I didn't finish them or didn't catch my interst I would say the dreamcast is both underated and overrated, I mean it's a good console, if you love 2000 arcade is perfect, but in general I find it kinda lacklaster in the game library. I still have to try shenmue and headhunter.Anyway for me it's just a PS1 on steroids more than a PS2 equivalent. But still good games and console.
>>12587153Yeah, at the end of the day, the Dreamcast is 1998 era hardware. Even if Sega had kept it around longer, it would’ve quickly been outdated once the sixth gen really got going.
>>12587567>the Dreamcast is 1998 era hardwarethe ps2 had 1999 era hardware.
>>12587561>Dreamcast on emulatoryou didn't play the games nor the console. fuck off retard
>>12587596Yeah but backed by Sony’s deep pockets with everything custom made.
>>12587596early 2000s era, buddy
>>12587607it came out in march 2000, the hardware was done by 1999https://youtu.be/F1qvAXbBZac
>>12587609so the dreamcast is a 1997 era hardware?
Dreamcast lived on through ATOMISWAVE and NAOMI which kept getting games well into the 2000s
Reminder that the PS2 is the last true home console with no PC archicture influence, everything was custom made unlike Dreamcast, GameCube or Xbox Games specifically designed to take advantage of the console's incredible vectors units and fillrate could not be replicated on other platforms of the time without major downgrade PS2 hardware in terms of particles effects far exceed what any 2000 consumer PC could achieveShadow of the Colossus could never work on Dreamcast, GameCube,Xbox or a gaming pc from early 2000
>>12586505>Xbox with it's shitty CPUCitation needed
>>12587559Do you know what barely any means?
>>12586505Xbox CPU: 733 MHz Intel Pentium IIIPlaystation 2 CPU: 294MHz "Emotion Engine" / aka R5900Care to explain how the xbox CPU is "shitty"?
>>12587735It's not that simpleIt's like comparing a generic Intel workplace CPU against one designed for gaming like the Ryzen X3D. Numbers alone don't mean shit
>>12587735>He don't ever know that the PS2 CPU has vectors units coprocessor that make it far more powerfull than the Xbox CPU
>>12587819Proof?
>>12587707GTA3 and VC were not entirely 'ported' to the Dreamcast. That would imply that both are playable in their entirety from beginning to end. To my knowledge, both of those projects are only running a small portion of the games.
>>12587656>>12587819Based vector poster.
>>12588002Is that so?Are some parts of the story missing or portions of the map?
>>12588002that's incorrect, you can play the entirety of III and VC on the dreamcast, though they do say to expect bugs, it is in fact the entire game and not just a tech demo or carved section of it
>>12588002>>12588023oh as a side note: the people who made these ports themselves say the dreamcast is weaker than other 6th gen consoles, and i'm pretty confident they'd know better than any /vr/ fag
>>12587630https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQpONcK940g&t=181s>WHATS WRONG WITH YOU??!??
>>12588028I don't think anyone who argues it's 6th gen thinks it's overall more powerful than the competition.
https://blogstation2.wordpress.com/tag/evolution/>Question: Do you think there will be any major advantages to the Dynamic hardware setup of the PS2 as opposed to traditional PC-esque hardware, it seems to making mainly problems for developers?>Jason Rubin: Yes, I do think that there are advantages to the hardware setup of the PS2. The multiprocessor setup of the system allows the PS2 to do so many things at the same time (if programmed well) that the hardware is actually far more powerful than its spec. They say the Xbox is going to be either 600mhz or 1000mhz. The PS2 is only 300mhz. But if you can have your background engine running in 10% CPU and 50% VU1 time, then you have far more power.>And yes, of course there will be more powerful systems in the future. That is how technology works. But the Xbox may not be that system.>Question: About the math capabilities mentioned earlier, could you talk in more detail about them and what you’ll be doing with them?>Charles: The PS2 math capabilities are like Intel’s SSE… but on steroids
>>12588046>I don’t think anyone has ever overstated the complexity of programming for the PS2. But, on the other hand, the Xbox libraries won’t allow you anywhere near the actual hardware, so there is little room for optimisation. Plus, the Xbox doesn’t have the high speed vector units of the PS2, which may be why even the best Xbox games run at 30Hz.>I seriously doubt we would have been able to make Ratchet and Clank run at 60Hz on the Xbox without drastically reducing the number of moving objects. So, ultimately, I think we’ve made the best platform choice for our game.>It’s very difficult to put a number on how far we’ve pushed the PS2 at this point. If I had to estimate, I’d say Ratchet and Clank may use about 50% of the PS2’s maximum potentialXbox couldn't run at 60FPS Ratchet and clank a game that only use 50% of the power of the PS2...
>>12588046it's similar to how the ps3's cpu looks weaker than the 360's on paper (ps3's single core 3.2GHz PPC vs. the 360's triple core 3.2GHz PPC), you can't ignore the vector co-processors in both the ps2 and ps3's cpu chip.
>>12588042dreamcast wasn't even in the same room as the competition. they were so far behind. they were still riding on the train trying to get to the same room as the competition but never made it on time.>>12588046>background engine running in 10% CPU Idle and just rendering a frame? He made games exclusively for Sony. What the fuck did he make for xbox at naughty dog? Jason is full of shit.
>>12588053PS3 is much less well designed than PS2 to be honest,it's a rushed and gimped console ,the original plan was for the CPU to do the work of the GPU too but it didn't work out,they got a shitty GPU instead and a downgraded CPU tooImo 360 is a better machine hardware wise
If the japs at Sega had switched over to team intel and powerpc instead of using SuperH series by Hitachi (from 32x onward) then Sega's console business might still be alive. The japs picked team Japan and fell behind.
>>12588048i was surprised to learn recently that Forza only ran at 30fps. if it can't even run a racing simulator at 60fps then it has no hope
>>12588064yea it was supposed to be like the ps2 but more, but delays due to difficulty in manufacturing the cell let pc gpus catch up so much that they ended up chucking one of them in instead
>ITT: Ps2fags still coping that GC and Xbox mogged
>>12586332Game Gear and GameBoy.
>>12588107The GC is my favourite vidya console but saying it mogged the PS2 is fantasy thinking, the PS2 completely annihilated everyone in that generation, had the biggest and best library of games ever even if it was less powerful than the Gamecube.
>>12588113I wasn't talking about sales or library.
>>12588116oh no that's just, the console.
>>12588113It was more powerfull than the GameCube and the best library ever is the PS1
>>12588118Yes, that's the point, the anons above were doing full mental gymnastics to prove the console itself was overall more powerful.
>>12588119>It was more powerfull than the GameCubeThat's simply not true.
>>12588120Ah sorry, my mistake anon.
>>12588120It is more powerfull Prettier graphics doesn't mean more powerfull PS2 exceed the other consoles in terms of IA,Geometry complexity, particles effects, framerate....It's the same reason why Genesis is more powerfull than SNES,more colors is no way better than power that really affect the gameplay (IA,Framerate,sprite/polygon pushing etc...)
>>12588121>But the clock speed is faster on GameCube !!!Oh god please stop acting like a dumbassThe Jaguar is no more powerfull than the PS1/Saturn
>>12588128You intentionally chose to ignore everything else because you're wrong, sorry ESL-kun but the GC is in fact more powerful.
>>12588129You willingly choose to ignore the coprocessors of the PS2 CPU or the insane bandwidth or pixel fillrate of the PS2...RE4 the most impressive game on GameCube work on PS2 (and could have been much better with more developpement time)Shadow of the Colossus on the GameCube ? = 404 not found
>>12588129>GC is in fact more powerful.Doesn't mean much when it's not using specialized, exotic hardware.The best looking GC games look like average PS2 gamesGood luck finding any GC game that utilizes Blooming, folliage or weather effects.
>>12587656> made unlike DreamcastThe Dreamcast is the only consumer hardware ever released with actual 3d capable hardware, as apposed to obsolete 2d triangle accelerators. Don't lump the Dreamcast in among the other pc influenced garbage.
>>12588157>Good luck finding any GC game that utilizes Blooming, folliage or weather effects.1.Wind Waker2.Metroid Prime3.Resident Evil 44.Squadron IIIAnd there are many more. Both consoles pushed similar effects with different methods.
>>12588261????? Please explain, I'm genuinely confused
>>12588268The dreamcast gpu actually knows what depth is. If you dump a bunch of geometry on the dreamcast gpu, it draws it in the correct order. Every other gpu draws triangles in the exact order you submit them completely ignoring depth. These stupid 2d triangle accelerators pretend to support depth using the z-buffer, which is basically a hack that breaks as soon as anything is transparent.
>>12588261at the time the dreamcast did use 3d hardware similar to what could be gotten in pc's. while not nvidia or ati, powervr-based 3d cards were a competitor in the late '90s. it would be accurate to argue that the dreamcast used a pc 3d chip, as much as it would be to say the gamecube and xbox did (even though in all 3 cases the exact chip used was unique to each console in some way and not available on a pc expansion card)
>>12588289Apparently the pc cards came after. The Dreamcast got the hardware first. Also, when used on windows via the DirectX apis which implicitly assume an obsolete 2d triangle accelerator, the the strengths of PowerVR hardware go unutalized.
>>12588296the dreamcast got a series 2 chip before any pc card, but there were series 1 chips as early as 1996. again no different to how for example the xbox gpu is a better geforce 3 before pc's got the geforce 4 (only a few months later mind)>when used on windows via the DirectX apis which implicitly assume an obsolete 2d triangle accelerator, the the strengths of PowerVR hardware go unutalized.beside my point, but directx wasn't the only api available for them. directx pretty much killed off all the more specialised apis different cards had. good for game devs i suppose but it does mean the simplest designs won out in the end
Based SEGA
>>12588296>>12588310oh and directx support isn't even a good argument for if something is a "pc 3d card" at that time either, since the most popular pc 3d card during the dreamcasts lifespace was the voodoo series... which also had bad directx support. directx didn't really take off until after the dreamcast died
>>12587153Looks better than the PC version honestly.
>>12587153the DC port of SoF was trash, the DC was weaker than the PS2 but could do way better than what we ended up getting.
>>12586332>Dreamcast-PS2 is problably the biggest gap technology wise between 2 retro consolenahhps1 n64 is biggerI think every PS2 game can run on Dreamcast with only minor visual downgradesExcept for maybe shadow of the colossus
>>12586442It could obviously run on an xbox
>>12589478the n64's cpu is way faster than the psx's, but it's so hamstrung by it's memory that games can barely use it. the n64 if you compare work ram may make you think it has twice as much (4M vs. 2M) but actually it's much closer than that, since the playstation has separate vram and audio ram, totalling 3.5M, while the n64 has to share all of that (yet another memory contention issue)despite the visual differences (the n64 obviously has the advantages of hardware texture filtering, perspective correction, z-buffer support (which costs ram btw), and floating point math), i think you'll find they're closer than they seem.a lot of the differences between n64 and psx games are down to their storage media, cd being large and slow, carts being small and fast, they lead to different focuses, like psx games tend to use more varied and larger textures, partly due to memory latency issues on the n64 but mostly because of limited cart space
>>12589638>, partly due to memory latency issues on the n64 but mostly because of limited cart spacealso:>bad programming and inefficient management of the systemand>lack of knowledge about how to build efficient gpu microcodeall that combined with shit memory access times, it's amazing how anybody got code to function on the machine at all.
>>12589804not to mention most of the extra cpu power was just used for decompressing assets which didn't need to be so compressed on a cd in the first place. like you can find a few games on n64 which use mp3 for sound compression, the playstation's cpu couldn't do that... but it also doesn't need to, because it has the less efficient adpcm which is fine since there's ample storage space available for it. or fancy software image compression, also not needed since you just use the playstations' built in MDEC image decoder and not worry about if the files are as small as they could be
>>12589804>microcodeDidn't Nintendo also forbid devs from using custom microcode until late into the system's life?
>>12589823the only games i know of that did were super late so it wouldn't surprise me
>>12587630Dreamcast would have kept getting late NAOMI games if Sammy didn't force SEGA to shut down GD-ROM production.Hell the NAOMI would have probably gotten more games too
>>12589638> texture filteringAnti-feature that looks terrible> perspective correctionNice in theory, but in practice encourages devs to create low-detail level geometry with huge polygons.> z-buffer supportOne of the worst things to even happen to 3d graphics.
>>12589820And don't forget that there is no sound chip on the N64,the CPU need to spent part of it's power creating music and sound effect...
>>12590056also true, while the psx can play 24-channel mixed music using a dedicated sound chip from it's own dedicated 512k of audio ram without disturbing the main cpu or main ram, the n64 has to spend cpu time and precious memory access time doing that instead
>>12589939And SEGA japan are the retards who thourght people wouldn't be interested in dvd roms. Spent millions on a GD rom disk/laser design only for pirating to show they never needed the games on a 1GB disk in the first place as everything could fit on a standard 800mb disk.Ignore soa telling and showing them people wanted it to have a dvd drive.I loved sega back in the day but this company made so many fucking stupid decisions time after time after time
>>12590067Stop with the meme about DVD player killing the Dreamcast The PS2 was not the cheapest DVD player around at allDreamcast failed because:1-arcade games were not popular anymore 2-PS1 success and library was so huge ,everyone knew that it's successor would be the same with all the third party support and big exclusivity like final fantasy and Metal gear
>>12586265Playing Quake 3 arena online on the Dreamcast with mouse + keyboard was the tits. If only they had used a DVD drive, the system would've had the life it deserved.
>>12590067>Spent millions on a GD rom disk/laser design only for pirating to show they never needed the games on a 1GB disk in the first place as everything could fit on a standard 800mb disk.>whoah you can save space by making compressed as fuck fmvs and audio tape tier mono only.Would have been less viable on later AAA titles.
>>12590120yea if it lasted longer trimming that last 200M would have gotten harderreminds me of those pirate copies of gta3 and vc for ps2 which trimmed the games (notably removes some of the radio stations) to fit on cd's (since burning cd's was more accessible than burning dvd's in the early ps2 days), but later ps2 games you had no hope of cutting down to a cd. granted ps2 games could get as large as 8.5GB rather than just 1GB, but still, hypothetical late dreamcast games may well have really pushed that 1GB to its' limit
>>12590067It was Bernie Stollar who decided to not include a DVD player, as Sega had him choose between the internet modem and it since they apparently couldn't have both.
>>12586268Dreamcast runs multiplats better than the PS2. Xbox was a 6.5 gen console.
>248 officially NTSC games released for the Sega Dreamcast>155 are ports or shared releases with the ps1 And there are people who insist on calling the Dreamcast a next generation console.
>>12590348Better performance than PS2Better graphics than PS2Dreamcast won.
>>12590406No dogshit insane levels interlacing, Dreamcast chads we won
Why was ps2 so freakin weak
>>12590086Yeah, it’s easy to forget now that backward compatibility wasn’t the norm with consoles back then. The PS2 was a straight path upgrade for existing PS1 owners. Not only did they get the new console with a DVD player, but it also played all the PS1 games they already owned.
>>12590645come to think of it, how many other consoles even had backward compatibility before the ps2? off the top of my head i can think of;- gameboy colour, gameboy support- mega drive, master system support (required optional add-on)- atari 5200, 2600 support (required optional addon)it was a really rare feature. between psx support and dvd support it was already ahead of the competition before you even consider ps2 games
