Why were Japanese devs so angry at people saving their progress?
>>12586747did you want to pay $70 for every game to have a save battery in it?
Japs can't design games for shit. Lack of saves is artificial difficulty.If saving any time you want compromises your game then your game fucking sucks.
>>12586747Sonic is a bad example, you get continues if you run out of lives which is quite generous.
>>12586747uh, weebbros?
Quicksaving is the worst thing to ever happen to PC gamingRuin any sort of tension or risk/reward
>>12586759>dude I LOVE RPGs and choices and consequences! >loads a save every time something doesn't go exactly his way another flaw is that there's no limit to how often one can save. do you save after you kill a single enemy in Doom, or after every jump in Tomb Raider? you stop experiencing the game as a whole when you remove all challenge this way and brute force it
>>12586792>and consequencesnobody says this, I like RPGs that are easy and any mistake I made can be reversed. Simple as.
I stopped liking Japanese gamesI started liking british shitware
>>12586796Based chill gamer
>>12586747a lot of people lack self control and will genuinely ruin games for themselves by savescumming. I like having the option to save but I understand why devs would choose otherwise>>12586792tomb raider is one of the worst victims of quicksave/quickload abuse. the save crystals on consoles are much more fun>>12586796choices and consequences have been a core tenant of western RPGs since the 80s
>>12586802Oh fuck how could I forget Wizardry's complex story full of choices and consequences... oh wait
>>12586802>choices and consequences have been a core tenant of western RPGs since the 80s.Fallout 1, an RPG used in this image, heavily relies on save scumming. Thus eliminating consequence.
>>12586804ultima 4 is the one to pioneer the concept as it is known today. you can still find consequences in wizardry 1, like missing or failing to disarm a trap. reloading until RNG goes your way ruins all RPGs
>>12586805no it doesn't. fallout 1 has a stupid amount of alternative solutions and fail safes.
>>12586812>Ultima 4>1 ending, the "choices" are obvious, "consequences" can be fixed Lol>you should just deal with your whole team getting teleported into a wall please spent 2 hours grinding a new teamNo
>>12586790Believe it or not, people exist who don't want to lose half a fucking hour of progress every time they die.Repeating long sections is boring time wasting bullshit. You can cope and call it challenging but its just irritating and boring.I play games to have fun. Simple as.
>>12586747>rewards creativity and adaptability the exact opposite is true. if you lacked the ability to save and load whenever you'd have to make the best of the situation, which forces you to adapt and be creative it's a case of "I'll just keep reloading until I pass this stat check" vs "I failed the check but I'll adapt and find another solution"
>>12586824I disagree, if you lack the ability to save and load you stick to a single safe strategy instead of trying new things
Kind of funny that Tomb raider 2 PS1 had quicksave but not Tomb raider 3 PS1Core design knew they fucked up, so they reintroduced the crystal system from Tomb Raider 1 slightly modified
>>12586820if repeating the content is a negative to you, that means the content is badyou see games as one and done affairs, something to race through, beat and bin, as evidenced by your 'muh progress' attitude. you're optimizing out your own enjoyment of the game
>>12586815>alternative solutionslike?>fail safesyour save can literally be nullified and break if you save during combat
>>12586829No it means the content has already been experienced and there is no reason to do it again, cope harder
>>12586820>I need to complete the game as fast as possible even if it make the game boring and lame!!!
>>12586836>already been experienceddo you exclusively play visual novels? if the game is worth anything it'll be interesting each and every timeyour wording again makes it seem like you see games as static unchanging things to experience like a film and then never bother with again
>>12586837Because doing the same shit everytime you die is the funniest part of the game right? Lmao fuck off
>>12586830you are not able to save during combat in fallout 1
>>12586792>do you save after you kill a single enemy in DoomI do this in Heretic on maximum difficulty. I also quickload any time I lose more than 5 health. You'd be surprised how fun and challenging it is.
>>12586841You absolutely can, have you even played it?
>>12586837What's boring and lame is repeating long sections every time you die. I don't care how quickly or slowly I finish a game. I simply refuse to let a game dictate my time.
>>12586840>Because doing the same shit everytime you die is the funniest part of the game right?If it's a good game with a good gameplay loop yesThe reward is playing the game
>>12586747Now post some western games from the same systems shown on the right and tell me how lenient they were with saving.Do you think console doom had quicksaves? PSX doom had fucking passwords and that was the most avanced one.
This is one of those topics that 4chan is too stupid to talk about.
>>12586843google says sfall disables it. apparently modders know how buggy it is
>>12586825I guess thats why nobody ever discovers anything in arcade games.
Its simply because pcs had easy disk access. I savescummed in smt4
>>12586747The fact is that most PC games would be better without savestates.I remember playing Age of Empires in 1998, didn't know I could save the game at any time. Every mission in the campaign was a thrill. After I discovered I could save and redo my mistakes, everything became boring, easy, unnatural... ruining the immersionBut I understand that many PC games need saves because of how poorly designed they are, like Morrowind, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Heroes of Might and Magic, Thief, Might and Magic... a lot of trial and error involved because the retarded devs were unable to create a consistent game
>>12586908Well I dont blame them. While console was rightfully pushing console design, those were pushing more complex simulation mechanics. I dont think thief wouldve been made console first, and not with save spots/beams like nocturne or something
>>12586747This is why SMB3 is a shit game. Fans will actually defend it by telling you the devs intended for you to cheat and skip levels
>>12586920*arcade design kek
>>12586747Japanese see games as something with a win/lose condition. Western developers, especially Americans, see it as more of a role-playing experience.
>>12586839>you see games as static unchanging thingsunless it's procedurally generated, it *is* a static unchanging thing.
>>12586920>if A, then B >"but I don't want B!">*hit reload button*This is the worst form of simulationComplexity has nothing to do with trial and error.Again, it's just bad game design that ruins the natural flow of the game.
>>12586939It is, but my point is that you can excuse them. Thiefs stealth is still beautiful and Ultima Underworld pushed a lot of stuff that would later become common
Being able to save anywhere in FPS games is actually what mostly what turns me off from the genre. Every time I play one I always end up save scumming my way through difficult sections. I'd prefer to just start the level over with a clean slate when I die, or better yet at a check point if it's a long level, but this is almost never an option. You either start from your last save, which could be devastating if you hadn't saved in a while or maybe even not at all and you start the entire game over, or you start the level over however you came into it which also can suck. Because of that I just hit the quick save every time I make any progress whatsoever and it just doesn't feel satisfying and doesn't really give me any reason to improve. Unironically I think these games would benefit from having a classic lives and continue system the most out of any genre.
>>12586969If you don't enjoy playing the perfectionist way of quickloading at the most minimum damage then the genre its not for you
>>12586969Unbind the quick save button and make hard saves at the level start. The Turok 2 remaster lets you save anywhere but I only saved by the checkpoint stations (which were the save points in the original), for example. You can indeed play FPS games with the challenge you seem to be seeking.
>>12586969You autist, just save at the start of the level or load the wad file
>>12586747The true progress is saved inside you.
OP is comparing PC games to console games, not east vs west.Password saves are idiotic, but save anywhere is basically a cheese cheat code.Save points were great, as someone else mentioned, when you have to go through 15 minutes after a save before getting to a boss fight, that fight becomes more tense as you don't want to lose experience or re-do that section.
>>12586747saving is cancer and is one of the things that ruined game design the mostsaving removes all stakes from the game. with saving there is no punishment, no risk, no fail state.
>>12586747Pokemon makes sense, at least, since having a second save slot would make it too easy to cheese starters for trading (yes, I know you still can, but unless you do it from a fresh cart, you're going to have to overwrite your main save)
if F5 doesn't quicksave I alt-F4 simple as
>>12586790just limit your quicksaving to when it feels fair. To spare yourself redoing challenges you have already beaten, not to cheese encounters. And try rolling with bad consequences, it makes for a fun pacing change.I swear, some people can't regulate their own behavior and then blame it on the availability of choice.
Weird seing so many anons have problems with save scumming. You guys dont have self control?
>>12586820>lose half a fucking hour of progress every time they dieYou don't lose close to that much in any decently designed game with savepoints.Mustards can never admit the most fundumental problem here, which is that save everywhere more or less forces the game to play like shit if you want it to be actually hard, because then it can only be difficult if every tiny encounter has a decent chance of fucking you up, and so you end up playing inch by inch. If you have to 'make up' house rules to solve this, you may as well have a properly designed and curated save system in the first place, which avoids the whole problem.
>>12586765In the original Sonic, you don't. Every Sonic after has them.>>12586802Why not take quicksaves as a choice with a consequence, then? If someone wants to play with them, they can - it doesn't mean that you can't.
how do you play retro console games when every emulator have savestate/rewind functions. Only play on real hardware?
>>12587376>when every emulator have savestate/rewind functions.By not using them, obviously. They're cheats that are outside the game, and so clearly not fair game. Completely different from quicksave systems that are the one intended thing to use.
>>12586747consolefags angry not able to save anywhere anytimepc98 chads win
>>12586759Technically it's not truly tied to difficulty, it's more about punishment. Losing several hours of progress all at once doesn't make the game harder, it just makes you waste more time. Saving only has an impact difficulty-wise if you're allowed to save in the middle of a battle, or if it's like a survival horror where items are precious/limited and you're abusing saves to conserve them as much as possible (though really that's just a core flaw of that genre in general)
>>12586829>if repeating the content is a negative to you, that means the content is bad/threadPeeCs on suicide watch
Imagine seriously, unironically, giving a shit about beating singleplayer games "fair and square". Like nigga who are 'proving' yourself to, computer? If you want to test your skills, challenge other people in multiplayer. This is an actual skill, dynamic decisionmaking against the opponent who equally strategizes against you. Autistically memorizing Malenia's attack patterns so you can beat her with a stick is not an impressive skill, it's a sad display of pitiful existence. All these dudes playing kaizo romhacks or speedrunning Mario64 would beg to suck dick and eat shit against human players who aren't predictable with perfect accuracy. Singleplayer games are for fun and relaxation. I will save state every 10 seconds.
>>12586825Sounds like you suck at games and that's why you use savestates.
What other people would consider trolling aside, one of the main reason why computer games letting you save/load anywhere was more common than on console was that computers weren't dedicated gaming machines, they were also for adults to work on. Thus you need to be able to quickly stop and come back to the game.Many of the games that let you save/load anywhere also have a more arcade/console like system, for instance the Doom and Duke Nukem 3D style, listed in the OP btw, you can load your save if you die, or you can play it like a SHMUP or an arcade game and restart the current level over from scratch with only your base weapon if you die. The games support both.>>12587508>Imagine seriously, unironically, giving a shit about beating singleplayer games "fair and square". Like nigga who are 'proving' yourself to, computer? Hardcore gamers back when these games were relevant disagree with you and cared. See as an example the Nintendo Power segment listing and praising players who beat games or got a high score. "Beating" the game was the entire point of action games and this is why players complained when that was too easy.also yes pic is relevant, if they dislike infinite continues what do you think they'd say about saving/loading anywhere
>>12587508The userbase of RetroAchievements cares, lol. They have sets of achievements that emphasize challenge and using savestates is banned if you want to get "mastered" status on a game.
>>12587520>What other people would consider trolling aside, one of the main reason why computer games letting you save/load anywhere was more common than on console was that computers weren't dedicated gaming machines, they were also for adults to work on. Thus you need to be able to quickly stop and come back to the game.Forgot to mention, but saving/loading anywhere is basically similar to the Boss Key trope in that sense.
>>12587508>Imagine seriously, unironically, giving a shit about beating singleplayer games "fair and square"Video games are for fun and the challenge is 50% of the fun.You are a sissy if you think that video games is just like a walk in the park.The Dark Souls formula became a huge a success because players were sick and tired of games not being challenging at all, with too much hand holding and gay mechanics, such as the rewind function found in many modern racing games: crashed into a wall and are now in last place ? how dare you to make me restart the race and do better (*hit the rewind button*). Battle royale and competitive online games follows the same premisse.
>>12586747SRAM is expensive.
>>12587524>Battle royale and competitive online games follows the same premisse.As for "follows the same premisse" obviously I'm referring to the challenging nature of the dark souls games.
>>12586747>nippon devsyou mean console peasant rice. the left pic is all PC games.also Saga Frontier allowed you to save anywhere.also Pokeymons.
>>12586747Save scummers will never know true victory.
>>12587520>muh adultsalso there's a "BOSS key" for older DOS games, that prints a fake DOS prompt on screen so you can game at work.
>>12587548now LARP as an arcade 1-CC autist.
>>12586792If the game is fun and well written I'll have no problem replying it when I make the wrong choices. Most RPGs are not and I'm not going to invest 20+ hours into beating one just to get the lame ending basic the writer can't communicate their beliefs clearly - or worse, they're trying to force their morals and ethics onto you and they punish your roleplay even if you're not playing something like an unhinged murderhobo psychopath.
>>12586747It's a holdover from arcade games and saving money on having built in memory.
>>12587371TRVKE
>>12587441>Losing several hours of progressAre there seriously games like this after the 80s? I could only think of 2D Mario. The worst I've ever experienced was losing 30 minutes of progress in Silent Hill 4.That alone was enough to make me quit and not play it ever again until I emulated it with save states.>>12587548Victory is fucking gay if it wastes too much of your time.
>>12587521Okay but who cares what a bunch of trannies that get mad at pixels think?
>huh durr... wrong shape>thankfully I quick saved just before picking this block>F9
>>12587335>I swear, some people can't regulate their own behavior and then blame it on the availability of choiceIf you've made the observation that people very often can't--or simply won't think to--regulate their own behavior, then you're acknowledging that the presence of save states hurts a game. It's a failure of the developer to not take this psychological reality into account.
>>12587590This but unironically. This is how high test men play games.
>>12587376It's called RetroAchievements Hardcore mode and every good emulator supports it. The cheevos are just a side effect, removing the intrusive thoughts of whether you should cheat "just this once" so you can actually play games like you did when you were a kid is the real appeal of RA.
>>12587590>huh durr..wrong shape>time to solve 20 previous blocks from scratch so I can try this one again
good thread kek
>>12587579I mean there's roguelikes, hardcore/permadeath modes in games like Minecraft, etc. You can also just have games lull you into a false sense of security, forget to save often enough then get hit by some instant death thing out of nowhere, or have the game crash on you or some shit. I'm honestly surprised you've haven't at least experienced that for any more than 30 minutes of progress yourself, not even once. Must truly be a save scumming expert.
>>12587635>so you can actually play games like you did when you were a kid is the real appeal of RA.But I was a Chad emulator kid already using savestates on Zsnes like a boss, feels good that I don't have to use the tranny mandated website for nostalgia sake
>>12586747Both are valid and provide different experiences. I don't see a need to argue this topic at all. >>12586828Isn't it TR3 that has the most bullshit save spots out of all the TR games that use crystals? I remember seeing people complain about that. I still plan to play it on the ps1 once I finish TR2 tho. TR with savescumming before every jump feels super lame.
>>12586842>You'd be surprised how fun and challenging it is.Yeah, you're basically practicing for a no damage run, a fun challenge.
>>12587657It doesn't have save spotIt has crystals hiddens in the level that you need to collect You can save anywhere you want but it consume a crystal and there is a limited numbers of crystal through the gameI think it's the best save system of the serie by far,it reward exploration,let players have agency in the way they experience the level while still providing tension and risk/reward situation
>they fell for the "you didnt beat it" memeLmao
>>12587665>I think it's the best save system of the serie by farNo, it's awful, because you just end up hoarding crystals, since how is the player supposed to know ahead of time how many crystals they'll need to reasonably beat a level? TR1 is the best game in the series because the levels were designed with the expectation that players would have saved at predetermined points. TR3 is just dickish, both because the new map designers are not as talented as the original team, and because there's no real concept of checkpointing.
>>12587675tr3 was made by the PC expansion pack team
Quicksaves: makes sense, some people don't like wasting time and want to progress through the game at the fastest rate possiblePermadeath/1cc: makes sense for hardcore players who want the tension that heavy price for mistakes bringsLimited lives/continues system: makes sense as a softer version of 1cc giving the players a bit of safety and allowijg them to play more looselySave rooms/checkpoints: DUDE WHAT IF THE PLAYERS HAD INFINITE CHANCES BUT LIKE, WE ROLLED THEM BACK A BIT AS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT, LIKE WE'RE MAKING THEM WORK FOR MESSING UP, HAHA ITS LIKE A MINI HUMILIATION RITUAL LMAO GOTTA TEACH THOSE FUCKS A LESSON FOR TRYING TO ENJOY A VIDEOGAME
>>12587687>Savescumming good>Not savescumming also good>Game savescumming for me badMake it make sense>inb4 its cuckedYou insecure fucks will find every excuse to make it about cuck porn.
>"oh no, i have to restart the entire game? this is artificial difficulty!!">entire game is shorter than a single mission in modern gta games
>>12587813Modern gta games have checkpoints on their missions though
>>12587848Explain why, because it artificially makes a 1 hour long me a 3 hours long game?
>>12587813Children have all the time in the world to replay videogames for hours. I'm a grown ass man with a job, every minute of my time outside the wagie cagie has to count. If the game makes me replay more than 2 minutes worth of a level after dying I'm saving or rewinding it. Itvis objectively BORING AS FUCK to replay the same part over and over again only to get assraped by the boss. In some games it doesn't even make sense. Like how Metroid Fusion forces you to go through a lengthy runback if you die to a boss, but the door right before the boss replenishes all your health and ammo, making any damage you took during the runback meaningless. It's a pure waste of time.
>>12588010This. These games need to stop treating me like a fucking child.
>>12588010>"THE GAME HAS TO STOP BEING GOOD BECAUSE I'M A 40 YEAR OLD WAGIE!!"get back in the cage you whiny cocksucker, not everything is about you cattle and how you have no more free time. Nobody who works a job is complaining how they have no time to play a sport, or read a book, or watch a show, but playing a game? It MUST bend to you, everyone must suffer because YOU (goy cattle) can't get past the first stage. Get. Back. In. The. Cage. Wagecuck.
>>12587828Eh, I guess you're right. I haven't really played one since San Andreas so I should've used a different example. SA had some pretty long missions though with no checkpoints.
Quicksaves are for saving. I dont roll back quicksaves except to do a stupid thing that would fuck up the main game or its something rng heavy that i dont want to do multiple times. I like saving a lot of times because it feels like a journal.
>Do good games with quicksaving exist?>a) no, all games with quicksaving are badCongratulations you sound like a retard >b) yesGreat, you just proved that quicksaving as a feature does not prevent games from being good and you were angry for no reasonHabe a good day lad.
>>12586747>>12586759>hb1 brownoid hand
>>12588069The real question you'll have to ask yourself is, were you always this retarded, or did the estrogen do this?
>>12588069binary thinking. I can acknowledge that my preference is no quicksaving while also being able to compartmentalize it and not let it ruin my enjoyment of countless games quicksaving doesn't prevent games from being good, but it does slightly lower their value (to me). I'd prefer that all games had a more thoughtful save system rather than just leaving it up to the player's whims, but that's obviously not the reality of vidya
>>12588094>no argumentI accept your concession.
>>12587513Who said anything about savestates?
>>12588089
>>12587372>In the original Sonic, you don't. Every Sonic after has them.You get continues for collecting 50 rings in Special Stages.
>>12588175He didn't play the game, don't mind him.
>>12588089Even literal pajeets are more worthy of respect than white weeb faggots
>>12587813Both can be true
>>12586747Passwords weren't long to fuck with you, they were long because the save had more variables. Sure it'd be nice if every game had battery saves instead of passwords but that wasn't economically feasible.
>>12586747Famicom games would literally lose their ability to save or replaced it with passwords when they came to the west
>>12586747>console games from the early 90s vs pc games from the late 90sfucking dumbass
>>12589207There is a ps2 game there
>>12586759What a surprise the person using the term 'artificial difficulty' also knows jack shit about game design. They tell on themselves every time. And yes save anywhere is bad if the intended experience from the developer is a challenge balanced over a period of time to create risk. But a mongoloid who thinks artificial difficulty is a real term isn't worth discussing it with.
>>12588249>curry hand
>>12586747star fox 64 is genuinely 90 minutes long though
>>12589772What if I get bored around 40 minutes and want to take a break? It's a console game not an arcade game
>>12587579ADOM. Runs can take over a week and death is permanent.
>>12586820Imagine releasing a game that is so difficult only 1% will see the ending. That's shit. That means your game will be forgotten and no one cares because it's too difficult. A single player game needs to be challenging but bearable. If you want real challenge play fighting games with people
>>12586850>Said the fattest NEET of all
>>12587290>He said, after watching the walkthrough
>>12586747>4chinners are now too stupid to get the concept behind hardware limitations when it comes to saving on consoles that weren't an issue with PC gaming at the timeNext you retards are going to complain about how the snes port of doom looks and plays like shit and conclude that the reason the snes couldn't run doom better was not hardware limitations but malice.
>>12590242>not hardware limitations but malice.It was malice. The Japanese have a rabid hatred for first person shooters and PC games. Doom was public enemy no. 1 and they wanted to humiliate it.
>>12590295Pretty sure Americans handled every single port of doom themselves
>>12590295Sculpted Software was American and the lead programmer, Randal Linden was Canadian you fucking nigger
>>12586747Why even play the game at all, it should play itself for me. That way I don't have to keep reloading my save every time I make a mista---I mean the cheap artificial difficulty of the game expects me to do something over?
>>12586747Thankfully emulation fixes this.
>>12586747You can find an article by Tim Shuffer why quicksave hurts the game design, and how making quickload artificially long suppresses this quckscamming habit.Quicksave means the game is not stable, not balanced enough by devs, so you give a clutch to the player
