Is there a name for the phenomena in which younger audiences pretend to have had difficulty with some perfectly reasonable element of an older game and the general consensus then becomes "it was badly designed"?
>>12620465>start playing P.N.03>hey this game is pretty sick. Love the level design>wonder what the critics said back in the day>watch a G4 video>they have a foid review it bc lel MC has a VJJ!!>they spend the entire 10 minutes bitching about how you can't move and shoot at the same time>in the background a montage of them dying on the first level and sucking at the game>"what an ASININE decision the devs made not letting you MOVE and SHOOT at the same time!">too stupid to realize that if they allowed it it would completely trivialize the game and ruin the balance>they give it 2/5>game flops and is swept under the rug
>perfectly reasonable elementit's called bait and it's bad
>>12620478>be a game dev>receive complaints about game being not fun to control>argue that fun would ruin the balance>refuse to rebalance for fun>watch it flop
>>12620465>pretendThat fucker was the reason I could never complete Sonic 3 as a kid. I could do it with Knuckles no problem.
>>12620465>Is there a name for You know needing to put a name on everything instead of just calling it what it is is a pretty heavy reason why everything is so fucking retarded.
>>12620465Speaking as someone who was stuck on it for less than 30 seconds, it's honestly just one of those things you either get straight away or just don't. I don't think it even has that much to do with intelligence since the mechanism is counterintuitive to what it is in the game normally and in other games with similar contraptions and cues (ie, you jump on something and it bounces, indicating you need to time your jumps to go higher). At the end of the day it's bad design.
>>12620465The Water Temple in OoT has to be the biggest example of this. It isn't any more confusing or hard than any other dungeon in the game and I've always flown through it with no issue. I really don't understand how it became such a huge thing to the point Nintendo had to add a glowing path through the whole thing showing you where to go in the 3DS version.>>12620478PN03 does fucking suck just for other reasons.
>>12620506To expand on this, the barrel should not have bounced when you jump on it. That's a cue to jump again to build more momentum, which is the same in scores of other games and even elsewhere in Sonic 3 (even in the same level!), which isn't what you're supposed to do. If it instead stayed stationary when you jump on it, the player would be more likely to realize the controls are in a different mode than normal and be more likely to press up/down on the D-pad. Again, bad design. Not a matter of player intelligence.
>>12620465Don't know but it's not limited to retro games either. People just like to feel superior I guess.
>>12620504>You know needing to put a name on everything instead of just calling it what it isBut how can you call it what it is if you don't know what it's called? >>12620520>I really don't understand how it became such a huge thing to the point Nintendo had to add a glowing path through the whole thing showing you where to go in the 3DS version.There's a single key in the center pillar room that's easy to miss since it's only revealed when you raise the water and it was under a walking platform. If you're not paying enough attention or don't have a high attention span because you're a stupid 10 year old then you can get lost on that.
>>12620478You lost me at the meme speak, make a proper point or neck yourself.
>>12620465>pretendBrother, I muddled my way past it by jumping and avoided Carnival Night Zone for a long time after. It was a real thing for many people.
>>12620532esl or low iq or both?
>>12620531>But how can you call it what it is if you don't know what it's called?Basic communication skills. Also, It's "WHAT can you call it."
>>12620465Most platformers rely on immediate and instant feedback, and consistency in controls, that's the core problem of THE BARREL. There are only two things in the game that interact with the up and down buttons, one is the barrel, one is the pulley machine in Mushroom Hill zone.
>>12620506>>12620526>>12620607Here's the thing though: there's actually 3 different instances of using up and down to move up and down in the game prior the barrel.One is literally other barrels, earlier in the same level there are barrels near monitors that move in this manner and to reach the monitors you must move them like this because simply jumping won't give you enough height. But okay fine that's optional path stuff, what else? In hydrocity when on the poles being pushed by the current you need to press up and down to move sonic. This is a mandatory experience regardless of routing. Then in marble garden during the act 2 boss fight you control tails' height via up and down on the d-pad. And this instance is especially interesting because when playing as tails normally you do that via jumping. Once again this is a mandatory experience.Yes, the barrel absolutely should not have moved when jumping on it. There should've been a better visual indicator that jumping is not the key. But the game does actually establish the idea of using up and down to move up and down multiple times prior to this, including via the same object. Any player failing to think to try up and down after jumping on it like twice is actively ignoring info the game has given them. That is not bad game design, that is human error.
>>12620619>In hydrocity when on the poles being pushed by the current you need to press up and down to move sonic.Okay yeah I forgot those but I don't think they even make a difference.>Tails with up and downI genuinely didn't know this
>>12620619>One is literally other barrelsAn LLM wrote this. Pretty funny though.
>>12620627llm's dont make grammatical mistakes
Is there a name for the phenomena in which older audiences pretend to have had difficulty with some perfectly reasonable element of an older game and the general consensus then becomes "it was badly designed"?
>>12620628They can be easily instructed to do so. Saying the barrels should be obvious because you already did it earlier in the level is either pure retardation or LLM logic.
>>12620641It's an eslfag, probably a euro. You're some brown mutt shitter from USA coping bc he said git gud
>>12620627>>12620641No, I wrote that myself. I don't see how it's a retarded statement. That's basic game design, show the intended solution for a future puzzle in a simpler environment. If you got those monitors before reaching the barrel you would think "oh earlier I had to press up and down on this thing".It's not bad game design. I don't care how many idiots here say they struggled with it as a kid or how many screenshots anyone digs up of idiots back then struggling with it. If you can't retain information a game previously provided you and use that to help you with a later obstacle, you are at fault.
>>12620504
>>12620465I rememeber me and my friend being stuck at this part when we played it at his house and he turned out to be a genius math prodigy so I believe the IQ argument is cope. It's bad design because it gives false feedback. Simple as that. We can skip the mental gymnastics like this >>12620619 faggot is doing.
>>12620720you weren't stuck because it does give feed back when you press up and down. You have to freeze completely or be a monumental spazz to not get it.
>>12620739>You have to freeze completelyQuite literally the opposite, the barrel gives you positive feedback for shit that you're not supposed to do. You are a fucking idiot. The way the barrel works has been explained a thousand times, don't comment on it if you don't get it.
>>12620575No one cares.
>>12620465I'm a zoomlet and had no problem with the barrel, millenials are just retarded.
>>12620876
>>12620880>food analogy
>>12620886>he thinks pencils are foodGrim
>>12620897>he thinks pencilsanon, i...
>>12620901>diabetes fatso thinks this shit is food
>>12620901Hold the fuck up
>>12620906Oh shit americans have their own brand of smarties? I'm a euro and >>12620901 this is what came to mind first.
barreltards BTFO
>>12620948>defending something means you're all these ism's and aboutism's but I cannot refute your argumentYou got buckbroken by an obstacle in a game whose target demographic is children, you got fucked, manchild.
>>12620906Christ, americans really just get the worst versions of everything.
>>12620465If they are necessarily pretending to have difficulty it's just bait, isn't?
>>12620635Nah, Sandopolis Act 2 was MUCH longer. It's a vertically looping hellscape if you don't know where to look.
>>12621270Sandopolis isn’t in Sonic 3 though…
>>12621280& Knuckles :)
>>12620901>>12620906As an adult, I know those are actually just wrapped pencils.
>>12620901>>12620906There's regional confusion here. UK/Canadian Smarties are candy-coated chocolate pieces. American Smarties are the chalky candy pieces, which I believe are called Rockets in Canada.
>>12620957Yes, a child got confused by something in a game for children. Have you read the thread? It's all experiences from anons as kids encountering the barrel.
>>12620478I only recently started watching G4 and it's clear from the get go they're aiming for the dumb dudebro gamer audience, so expecting nuanced reviewing makes no sensealtough criticizing P.N.03 for the same stop to shoot thing Resident Evil does seems weird
>>12621442I had no problem with this as a kid, you must've been some retarded children.>>12621418heh, funny how that works.
>>12620880Ever notice how these are always either...1: Comics that put words in people's mouths?2: A video where an adult influences a child?I remember one video trying to prove that kids think that two small crackers is more than one cracker that's 3-4 times the size of one small cracker, and the child correctly pointed at the big cracker and the adult (and it's ALWAYS a fat bitch) was saying "But you have two!"
>>12621494The worst one was the beatmania review where they say it copied guitar hero. even though it released before guitar hero. In the background was them failing to clear even the lowest level 1 songs in the game
>>12620772>Gets caught by a red herring, and refuses to adapt.>Calls others idiots.
>>12621442The difference is that an adult will be willing to admit when their line of reasoning was flawed, especially as a child, and accept they were looking at the problem from the wrong angle. Which should be easy when discussing something experienced as a child.
>>12621494>>12622606I like the one where they say Soul Calibur's Ivy "still looks like a transexual hooker"
>>12620720>he turned out to be a genius math prodigy so I believe the IQ argument is copeI like the idea that the problem negatively selects against high IQ. Smart people will lock on to the 'clever' idea that timing the bounces in the right way will make it go down low enough and this is exactly what the official game guide recommends to do and put more and more effort into this over what a more normal person would, feeling they're really on the right track and are just so close to making it if they get the physics right.
>>12622649Your theory kinda forgets that one of the marks of a high IQ is experimentation and adjusting methodology when resistance goes beyond what is deemed reasonable. As in:>Not trying to force a square peg in a round hole.Psued angles on the topic are retarded, its too simplistic to determine much beyond one's ability to apply basic problem solving, and you get up to 10 minutes to figure it out.
>>12620532Greentext is a part of 4chan culture you normiefag tourist. Go back to facebook
>>12620465dilettantismvirtually anyone talking about good or bad "design" is guilty of it, including profession developers.
>>12620465Zoomer mindset
>>12622686Do you not think design exists? It's really just problem solving at its core. Design is everywhere. Bad design at a macro scale can get people killed.
>>12620465I had this happen with Mario 64. Everyone bitched about janky camera and I didn't agree until like 25 years after the game came out when I died from the shitty camera. I think I was just a better gamer back then or just used to it
>>12621252No, they're good. They have a completely unique flavor like no other candy. Candy coated chocolate is commonplace even without your Smarties brand here.
>>12620635>>12621270playing through the game as an adult i'm actually always much more worried about my time on carnival act 2 vs. sandpolis now. what gets most people in trouble on the latter is the 2 looping sections but if you know when to expect it and how to deal with it it's fine. with carnival the stage is just so fucking long and you need to be hauling ass the entire time. and then there's the boss which is SO fucking slow.
>>12622709millenials are the ones who got cucked by the barrel
>>12622686> virtually anyone talking about good or bad "design" is guilty of it, including profession developers.The people who best recognize a mistake are the ones who have done it themselves and learned firsthand why it was poor design.
>>12620465Being lonely
>>12622686>heh... le everyone is wrong! look at me i am so hecking smart!Shut the fuck up you worthless nigger
>>12620478That's one thing about the game industry that has persisted since the 80s. Despite all the great technological achievements with all sorts of different hardware and the advent of the internet forever changing the gaming landscape, the one constant has been that journos are routinely, consistently, completely retarded.
>>12620465"Badly designed" is just another buzzword that people copy from popular sloptubers because never developer actual sapience and are unable to have their own thoughts.Still, S3 barrel was retarded. Not because it was lol "badly designed" but because neither game nor guide explains how it works. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Sega lacked equivalent of Nintendo Power Line so you can't even justify it with greed.The barrel itself is fine if you understand how it works.
>>12623973>Not because it was lol "badly designed" but because neither game nor guide explains how it works.That’s poor design.
>>12623973>popular sloptubers because never developer actual sapience and are unable to have their own thoughtsESL alert
>>12623973>it's not badly designed but here's why it's badly designed
>>12623973hello saar
>>12623985le typo =/= esl
>>12620465I've never played Sonic 3 and I've never seen someone interact with this thing. I googled "Sonic 3 Barrel" to see how it looks in-game and the first thing I'd try is standing on it and holding down. Is that just what everyone does?
>>12624103>leWay to out yourself, frog.
>>12620492>>12620465I defeated this thing as a kid with retardation and endurance. I made sure to get 7 chaos emeralds before this stage and 50 rings before this barrel. Jumped it as low as you can get it by jumping, then triggered supersonic. During the transformation sonic stays in one place while the rest of the game moves, the barrel moved up enough that the game stuck me below it when collision was calculated again.
>>12621418We have Fizzers in the UK.That comic of the kid failing the "smarties" test is probably an autism diagnosis thing, or a developmental psychology thing.
>>12622598You're autistic.
>>12620465My only question is how did this pass play testing. Did they only test internally and were like "Yamato-San, what do I do here" and moved on, wtf
>>12623973>>12623981>>12623986Nothing in these old games “tells you how it works”. You don’t walk up to an object and a text box pops up saying “if sonic spindashes here, this thing will move” You just have to try and figure shit out yourself. That’s not bad design nor retarded design you stupid mongrels.P.S. this isn’t even something a guide should have to tell you about. It’s not a fucking RPG, you’ve only got so many things you can do. How any retard could sit there and let hours or even days pass without thinking “maybe I should just push the down button” is beyond me.
>>12622712I don't think you can point to it in video games because there are no objective external forces informing leisure or fun.
>>12624287You might be autistic.
>>12624297I accept your concession.
>>12624286most of the other stuff is intuitive you dipshit which is part of good game design. One of the most insidious things about the barrel is that there are like 2 similar obstacles right before it that you can get past just by jumping. It's a unique instance of bad game design that you never encounter before that point nor again after that makes you go "huh that was weird" once you know the answer then move on
>>12624319The barrel is intuitive as well you fucking retard. You want to go down, you push down. The only reason you fucking apes don’t think this is because you stupidly think every object needs to do the same thing. Oh…oh my god..da other barrel…I could jump…dis one..no jump….my head hurting!!!!! Also if you wanna get really pedantic the other barrels can be moved in the same way. Not the game’s fault you opted to avoid experimenting and figuring this out then decided that your way (jumping) is the only possible solution.Kill yourself.
>>12624331>You want to go down, you push down.Ah, dishonesty and reductivism, the weapons of choice for the barrel defender cretin.
>>12624331The barrel reacts to the weight of your jump, and is the immediate interaction the player has with it.By this point in Sonic 3, there are no objects that are operated by pressing up or down, and the influence of pressing up or down is not apparent whilst the object is still moving.By its design, the player is more likely to keep jumping on it because they can see the effect it has whilst it's still moving.By comparison, the pulleys you find later in Mushroom Hill Zone, don't let Sonic do anything BUT press down or jump off whilst you're grabbing onto it. There's no misdirection on how the player is expected to interact with it.
>>12620465It's not poorly designed, they're just too stupid to understand it.
>>12624331So true, people forget their basic knowledge that hedgehogs can psychically control barrels with their mind.
>>12624119The issue is that there is NOTHING else in any sonic game that required you to manipulate an object by doing that. But what made it even worse that it reacted to you jumping up and down on it, going further down with more momentum, giving the illusion that if you jumped just right it would force the object to create a gap. Since it would spring up after you jumped on it, the idea became hyper focused that you have to time it by jumping on it at certain times to increase the building momentum. Intuitively in Sonic, it was shit, and a lot of people just gave up. The idea you come to a complete stop and hold down just didn't feel like it made much sense.
>>12624514>The barrel reacts to the weight of your jumpAnd it reacts to your directional input. >is the immediate interaction the player has with itActually no. This barrel is placed at level with the floor preceding it. Meaning the player is most likely to run directly onto it. To move it via jumping requires a deliberate and extraneous effort.>By this point in Sonic 3, there are no objects that are operated by pressing up or downUh except the barrels earlier in the level that we both mentioned in our previous posts.>the influence of pressing up or down is not apparent whilst the object is still movingSee above. Barrel won't start moving until you jump first. You could just as easily press down first and immediately see the influence of directional input.P.S. that you guys keep acting as if a player continuously jumping on it to no avail rather than trying literally anything else is natural is so comical to me. Literal retard behavior. Durrr....da square peg no fit....i keep pushing it....it work soon!!!!!!You and >>12624496 and >>12624525 need to just kill yourselves.
>>12624514This is the answer. The earlier barrels can be passed by jumping with a certain cadence. So when you get to the infamous one, jumping with a cadence gets you juuuuust barely there. Meaning it tricks you into thinking it's a skill issue so you just keep trying to get better at the jumping.The only reason to try something else is if you think you're on the wrong track. But since the game "teaches" you that jumping to a beat "works" it'd be madness to deviate.The people who "solve" the barrel are the kinds of impatient doofuses who don't have any pattern recognition ability and will start button mashing the second they run into a barrier. They get by the barrel and think they're geniuses but these are the same people who get filtered by every other puzzle in all of gaming. But because they fell ass backwards into this one thing while smarter people failed they won't shut up about it. And they're also too dim to understand WHY people got stuck.
