So...Is there a in depth exploration how DOOMs dancing monsters work?There is something special about how doom monsters move. Sometimes they start moving away from you.I mean making a trivial way to make the monsters simply go to you in a straight line is so simple and so boring.Why are doom monsters like that?Did you like them?What are the quirks of doom monsters?I like to know that in full detail.PS: Others explained to me before that the reason why they dance is some places is because the map has a line that the monster can not cross. I realize it here.
you'd be like that too if you came from hell, Marvin
>>12745935Did anyone do a 100% explanation of how dooms monsters work especially the movement?
>>12746653you can start herehttps://doomwiki.org/wiki/Monster_behavior#Movementhttps://doomwiki.org/wiki/A_Chase
>>12746768>you can start hereThanks however this explains little to nothing. Like you can see the mosnter can start simply walking away from the player. Also I remember asking why zombie man danced in the first level of doom2 and someone explained that there are invisible walls or sectors that the monster can not cross. The movement of monsters is very interesting, it be trivial in these days to simply make a linear follow path AI that will pick the shortest way to get to the player. And this is very boring.
>>12746942bro there's a Doom thread with modders and mappers.
>>12745758https://youtu.be/pHKVSfcAO2g?si=csqv6Dll4a0394hq
>>12747346Also this one at 7:38https://youtu.be/f3O9P9x1eCE?si=W9_1Kc3K60OIu76y
>>12745758Doom doesn't have propper pathfinding. It weirdly uses convex shapes instead, as far as I know.
>>12746942from first link>If the direct route to the target is blocked by a wall or a solid thing that the monster walks into, it randomly picks another direction to move in for a short while (to find another route to its target) until it reverts to heading straight toward its target again. "blocked by wall" here means it can't move for whatever reason be it actual wall, height difference or, like in your example, a monster-blocking linedefpicking a new dir is done in P_NewChaseDir function ( https://github.com/chocolate-doom/chocolate-doom/blob/master/src/doom/p_enemy.c#L358 ) which does some weird stuff including randomness. So yeah there's a chance that a monster can just turn around and run backwards
>>12747443 (cont)If you wanna dig into the code I recommend broom, which a refactored code of doom meant to be easier to understand than vanillahttps://github.com/Henrique194/broom/blob/main/src/playsim/a_enemy.c#L432
>>12747351Yea I remember this guy(forgot the video name because it was in a strange named video.) however he still does not explain why monsters start moving away from you.
>>12747475if you watched the part in the second video, this specifically has to do with pinkies having weird issues with stairs. OP is standing on stairs, and the pinky cannot reach him at that spot, so he recalculates its trajectory and looks for another path and obviously can't find it so it keeps circling back. the "dancing" is because he's in a hallway and the way the code works is that if it cant find a path, it will make a precise turn in one of two directions, if it hits another obstacle, it will do it again. the result is this pinky hitting a wall, finding a new path, hitting a wall, finding a new path, etc etc, that just so happens to be in a circle pattern (it decided to go right instead of left).
>>12747660>weird issues with stairsi suppose its not actually weird, though, since pinkies just cant pass stairs that are greater than 24 units in height, and that difference can be so subtle that it looks imperceptible in the game, like difference of just 1 unit.
>>12747475Monsters run away from you because the game goes out of its way to avoid a monster doing a 180 degree turn.If a monster happens to be moving away from its target in a cardinal direction (north to south, east to west etc.) then when the time comes to try to choose a new direction (which happens every 10 to 15 steps), the monster's only option -- except carrying on in the same direction -- is a 180 degree turn.The game will not choose a 180 degree turn, unless there is absolutely no other option, e.g. it has run into a dead end that is too small to do anything other than turn around to move back out.So in that case, they will continue to run away from you until they are blocked by something.
>>12747987
>>12746942Doom's monster AI is rather simple stuff.>become aware of player>wake up and then try to b-line towards him>if things are in the way, try to navigate around it to some extent by picking a random other direction and move that way for a whileIt will repeat this indefinitely. It also isn't programmed to operate by sound or line of sight once it's awake, it just automatically knows where you are and tries to constantly move towards you.This is a pretty braindead behavior, but it does make for overall strong and constant aggression, and it's also predictable behavior on a map author's end, which is why you can consciously design around this. A monster 'running away' from the player is simply it trying another random direction after being unable to move forward.>if you had the ambush flag set, then DON'T start hunting the player just yet >when you first hear him, that gives you a 360 degree line of sight>and as soon as you then see the player, THEN wake up and try to go get him>but if he didn't make any noise yet, your line of sight remains normal, and he could still potentially sneak up on you>when fighting the player, generally try to NOT fire when there's another monster between you and him>but maybe still try anyway>also continuously firing ones are going to keep firing even if another monster comes into the line of fire>if hurt by another monster, find that fucker and make him pay>unless it's an arch-vile, then never ever retaliate
>>12749940It is only friendly monsters (MBF onwards) that try not to shoot each other.Regular monsters may attack every time they choose a new direction of motion, if they pass a dice roll and a line of sight check to their target. Anything else in the way is ignored.Otherwise your post seems accurate.
>>12747660>standing on stairs, and the pinky cannot reach him at that spot,Incorrect! I remember posting a webm asking why in the E1M1 the zombie man never walk down to you. Some anon opened that map in a editor and showed something that he named a invisible wall for monsters only.You also notice that his video has a cyberdemon dancing inside a red square in his custom map. I presume he build a map with these invisible walls to demonstrate something however he forgot to mention it in the actual video.Don't get me wrong the guy does a great work however on this subject his explanation is all over the place (split into 2 videos with a different title) and he never mentioned the monster repealing invisible walls in doom.For my taste he does to much of the looking into code and far to little explaining.I also did not see him give a direct explanation of why sometimes monsters will walk away from you like I have shown. Don't get me wrong he does lots of great work however doom especially in the monster department shows that the game is far more deeper then modern Serious Sam like trash where the monsters walk up to in the same way every time.In Serious Sams case this is boring.Lots of people did talk monster infighting to death however there is so much depth and unpredictable situations that happen in the doom engine that it makes the game feel fresh. And this is incredible and shows what we lost since the end of DOOM 2 in all of gaming.
>>12747987Interesting however I am trying to figure out how this can be the case in the webm I have posted in the OP.since clearly they do a 180 and walk away from you.There are moments where it should do 90 turn and simply dance in place in front of the stairs. Why did the monster chose a 90 turn that will get it further away from me?Should that be impossible? Unless the simplistic code of DOOM hides even mroe depth interactions inside of it.Look at the webm I am basically standing still and once in a while the monster decides to run away from me. This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. I can also swear I did see this behavior in other official maps.
>>12749940>, it just automatically knows where you are and tries to constantly move towards you.Basically irrelevant detail. > monster 'running away' from the player is simply it trying another random direction after being unable to move forward.Please watch the webm I have provided if this was true the monster would be basically stuck at the base of the stairs and occasional walk left and right to one of the walls before trying to walk into the stairs again. >when fighting the player, generally try to NOT fire when there's another monster between you and him>but maybe still try anywayVery interesting to know.>>if hurt by another monster, find that fucker and make him payThis requires a far greater coding then modern trash.>find that fucker and make him payunless it is the same monster type!
>>12750891Dead certain that I've had monsters hold ranged fire a for a bit while another was between us, and while recording clvl2 demos.>>12750927>Basically irrelevant detail.No it isn't, it explains why their pathing isn't actually intelligent, it's essentially repeated dice rolls and attempts until (if conditions permit), they actually make progress towards getting to you.>Please watch the webm I have provided if this was true the monster would be basically stuck at the base of the stairs and occasional walk left and right to one of the walls before trying to walk into the stairs again. What part of random direction do you not understand? Away from you is a potential random direction for them to go.>This requires a far greater coding then modern trash.No, that's incredibly simple code. Later shooter games don't do it because devs don't feel it realistic enough for their settings and themes. Some later games do things like these by having enemies divided up into certain teams/factions, which is more complex than what Doom does.>unless it is the same monster type!Broadly, but not strictly. Hitscans (pistols, shotguns, chainguns) and melee attacks ignore that same species protection, and there's the rare chance that a monster will target one of the same species if it was hurt by an exploding barrel which the other monster detonated.
>>12750937>Broadly, but not strictly. Hitscans (pistols, shotguns, chainguns) and melee attacks ignore that same species protection, and there's the rare chance that a monster will target one of the same species if it was hurt by an exploding barrel which the other monster detonated.Agree I stand corrected.>What part of random direction do you not understand? Away from you is a potential random direction for them to go.> Away from you is a potential random> Away from you VS>>12747987>he game goes out of its way to avoid a monster doing a 180 degree turn.>The game will not choose a 180 degree turn, unless there is absolutely no other option,You see the contradiction here right?PS:>NoBillion% disagree here.> Later shooterWhat shocked me while trying to replay Serious Sam 1 is how boring the enemies are they literally do a simplistic run and turn at max run speed and max turn speed. This makes the incredibly predictable VS me remembering doom monsters doing something like in my webm I swear I did see it before.>p into certain teams/factions,I think the best part about Halo Ce was the flood VS Covenant fights. The difference is that in Halo is is literallyCurrent target = Covenant.If(player seen or attack me) {Current target = player}Contrast this with dooms monsters not targeting between max 4 """"teams"""" (player, humans, covenant, flood) they actually remember the precise monster that attacked them and the infighting is not some scripted at spawn pseudo scene it is something you can trigger in any fight for strategic reasons. This makes fighting doom monsters so interesting.On top of the game giving 2 options (excluding special maps) where you can either clear all monsters or simply ignore all monsters and walk to the exit.1/2
>>12750937>>12751014>No it isn'tYES it is. Name any situation in the base game where this is relevant? For all the player knows the monster he did wake up simply did become awake and did see you walk out of the room or deduced that you took the only exit out of the room. If there is any ambiguity for all intense and purposes the monster did do a lucky guess. >No it isn'tIn other news in Unreal Tournament all bots can shoot 100% accurately only the game programs them to be terrible shots depending of how low the difficulty is.>No it isn'tIn other news in Unreal Tournament all bots know exactly where the player is only the game makes them not go there based on how easy the difficulty is.The only games where the>??? Huh where did the player go???Mechanics are implemented look like a D&D clown show like SKYRIM where the NPCs will be puzzled and talk exaggerated shit once you did hide behind the basket in the other room or took a potion of invisibility. And every time it is goofy as fuck. Pic related see how this clown game feels. In all other le realistic shooters you are not sonic the hedgehog who can run to the other side of the map where a monster walking all this way in an labyrinth is questionable. You can not run 800% faster then the monsters(if you can it is a glitch) same for doom so this is not a problem that anyone noticed.
>>12751017>>12750937PS:2Even ignoring all of this monsters react to sound. this means that if you where to defend the sentience of a doom monster you can say>Oh no the player did exit the room where is he?>Did he go behind door A where there is no sound or did he go into door B where the sound of gunfire and monster screaming and/or doors being opening is coming from?Even if you ignore all of that you can simply pretend the monster did go on a patrol.Never in me playing doom did I rage>Noo this is unrealistic the monster knows always where I am!On a technical level this is true however because of the nature of the game the illusion of intelligent monsters is never broken.
>>12750937>Dead certain that I've had monsters hold ranged fire a for a bit while another was between us, and while recording clvl2 demos.I assure you, it was just luck. The only tests in P_CheckMissileRange are for sight between actor and target and a random chance that changes depending on the approximate distance between them.>>12750897>Incorrect! I remember posting a webm asking why in the E1M1 the zombie man never walk down to you. Some anon opened that map in a editor and showed something that he named a invisible wall for monsters only.I am afraid I can find no such line. I can only assume you are misremembering. I believe the sergeants by the green armor are not able to walk down the stairs simply because the stairs are too narrow.
>>12751056>I can only assume you are misremembering.>I am afraid I can find no such line.How about this proof:https://youtu.be/pHKVSfcAO2g?t=159See how the cyber demon behaves. Look he is dancing in a red square! Why?There literally is no change in train. The only conclusion is that the guy made a special map where he walled the monster in with these invisible walls.>I am afraid I can find no such lineMaybe option in sectors? You can set? If not explain the video here https://youtu.be/pHKVSfcAO2g?t=159
>>12751108On E1M1, there are no monster-blocking lines at the top of the stairs up to the green armor.I am very well aware that monster-blocking lines exist generally.Can we stop talking past each other now please? Nothing you said is responding directly to anything in my previous post.
>>12751179>Can we stop talking past each other now please?What?>I am very well aware that monster-blocking lines exist generally.Why is this not documented and what are they?
>>12751014>>12751017>>12751042God, you are an absolutely insufferable person to converse with.>>12751056>I believe the sergeants by the green armor are not able to walk down the stairs simply because the stairs are too narrow.Enemy movement/pathfinding can sometimes be cagey about spaces which seem like they ought to fit them.
>>12751179>E1M1Was it not map01 in doom 2
>>12752745Oh.That would make more sense.Yes the bottom of the stairs in front of you at the start of MAP01 are surrounded by monster-blocking lines.Shame on me for assuming the other poster _meant_ the map he actually _said_.
>>12754480>Shame on me for assuming the other poster _meant_ the map he actually _said_.Sorry because DOOM1 and DOOM2 are identical I sometimes forget what the correct names for the maps are. I also do not memorize them so hard.PS: I am not passive aggressive.
>>12751014No one can tell me that doom monster AI is simpler then serious sam monsters! They literally simply follow the shortest path to the player.
>>12754480>are surrounded by monster-blocking lines.Why did no one fully explain how monsters work in DOOM also more info on this!
>>12754560Yes exactly. Shame on me--an expert--for not realising the obvious error instead of taking the literal interpretation. A worthy teacher must be able to spot where his student has gone off-track.>>12757327Monster-blocking lines are a standard feature. Two-sided lines can usually be crossed by all, but may be marked impassible--often with the addition of a cage bars texture, see the end of E1M1:Hangar for instance--or that they block monsters, leaving the line open to crossing by players only. The stairs at the start of MAP01:Entryway are marked as such, so that the zombies beyond remain on them, instead of being able to approach the ledge on which the player starts his journey.I'm not sure how you don't know about this unless you have never looked at a doom map in an editor, which I suppose is not unreasonable, but it is somewhat unusual--most doom players seem to have at least a passing familiarity with the mapping process.
>>12757397>you have never looked at a doom map in an editor,CORECT.>Monster-blocking lines are a standard feature. This was a surprise to me. And why did no one make a full explanation of monster behavior the best video source on all of this is decino and he does not explain it in detail. His explanations of monster behavior are all over the place. https://youtu.be/mA4uV7VKqY0?t=29Arguably the best explanation of monster movement he made!Here he also explains how monsters walk.HOWEVER my OP mp4 proves his explanation is IMPOSSIBLE!How do they turn around? In my example? https://youtu.be/mA4uV7VKqY0?t=117
>>12758205I don't know if it's a language barrier thing, but I think Decino is very easy to understand. I find you annoying and difficult to comprehend, however, so perhaps the problem is on your end.
>>12759141>Decino is very easy to understand??? The dude never explained the monster blocking lines!!!The dude split how monsters behave into 3 videos that do not have that in the title!
>>12759898You definitely have some kind of learning disorder.
>>12760136This is projection.
>>12758205In your example (the map in the first post is The Darkening II, map01) it seems the stairs are too steep for the demon to climb, so it has no choice but to turn around to try to find another way to reach you.
