>formalizes the RPG in your path
>>12810543Literally who? Should have posted Wizardry and Ultima
I never played these games before a couple weeks ago when I started Pools of Radiance for C64. It's absolutely delightful. Now I see why all the RPGs we have today are how they are. The developers were obviously fans of other games like Bards Tale, Wizardry, and Ultima. And obviously they didn't invent the gameplay elements. But they fused everything perfectly and managed to implement an autistically faithful AD&D ruleset as well. Even things like facing, which only made their way into RPGs much later (usually the front / back row mechanic was used in those times), were implemented.>>12810549Those trailblazed and pioneered RPGs. But Gold Box games formalized them. They are entirely 100% modern feeling in every way. You could spit shine these babies with new 3D graphics and paper dolling and nobody would know it's a 40 year old game. It has everything right where it needs to be, done just how you'd expect it to be. There is some minor bullshit like the encamp ritual after every combat so you can learn your spells and heal. No food, that'd be fucking annoying anyway (Ultima superfans know the pain). They in fact left out several mechanics other more primitive and formative games had, because not only were they less fun, they weren't part of the AD&D rules. Which were quite well thought out and almost made for computer automation.But these games NAILED the RPG and every other RPG ever since is just a hot take on the Gold Box games. You will never see JRPGs in the same light after playing this game. Final Fantasy fucking Tactics, considered a top JTRPG of all time, is fuckin' WEAK compared to the Gold Box games. Story, the 'tactical' nature of battling, all of it.
>but muh games these days are in REAL TIMETSR did have the EOB series if that was what you wanted, they kept making Gold Box for the ADVANCED Dungeons and Dragons players though who wanted a fuller RPG with the feel of combat on a grid-based map visualized using miniatures such as many people enjoyed in the '70s and '80s and '90s.
Is this auster's new spam schtick?
Western RPG only became good with Black isle/Bioware in the late 90'sJ-RPG were always superior
>>12810543Do I need to start with Pool of Radiance or is it okay to start with one of the other games?
>>12810651You absolutely need to start with the first game, whether you choose to play the Forgotten Realms series, the Dragonlance series, or the Buck Rogers series. The newer games don't have a better engine or anything, they look and play the same. It's important to choose a platform where you can import your characters from an earlier game too because the games ramp in difficulty within each series. This doesn't work on some platforms, and some platforms didn't get all the games. So don't choose one of those platforms.I'm playing Pools of Radiance on C64 because I can import my characters through all four games, plus it has the best looking graphics and sound of the 8-bit games. PC looks worse, so does Apple. The engine is actually the only thing that differs platform to platform, the modules are made for the engine which was coded to be as good as possible given each computer and once you port the engine the games are "free" on each computer. Lots of old games did this, LucasArts games, Sierra, Infocom, others.
>>12810632>Western RPG only became good with Black isle/Bioware in the late 90'sshit take, objectively wrong>J-RPG were always superiorThis one Gold Box game has everything that JRPGs have and a lot more, you can literally just see how every JRPG is a dumbed-down baby version of the Gold Box games which the JRPG developers must have surely played in awe and stunned wonder after working so hard to clone the much rougher Wizardry and Ultima games.
Might and Magic series is worse than the Gold Box games by the nature of its much simpler combat. With the Gold Box games you have a full tactical grid and a huge array of options for attack and defense using terrain. M&M has the old front back mechanic, no facing, more simplified combat. More of a Wizardry clone.Japanese role playing games fall into two categories. Either you've got your Wizardry clones - they call them JRPGs and have Wizardry style combat. Or you have your gold Box clones, they call them tactical RPGs. There are such a small number of exceptions to this rule that they are the exceptions that prove the rule.Even Pokemon is just Wizardry with one player at a time, with the overhead view of Ultima for the world navigation. No 3D FPS navigation view.
>>12810651Pool of radiance is the best one anyway
>>12810549This. But JRPGs specifically.
>>12810695JRPGs are provably just simplified copies of a handful of American games. Simplified.You might get a cute feeling when you play one but that's another discussion.
>>12810672>Even Pokemon is just Wizardry except nothing like Wizardry
>>12810709It's literally 1 on 1 Wizardry combat, coupled with a maze game with random encounters and the overhead "world view" from Ultima. Didn't have the FPS view for dungeon mazes, few JRPGs did. They didn't playtest well on children there.
>>12810690Have you played them all?
>>12810709Fuzzballmon, I choose you!
>>12810716bubbly slimes sound cute too
Finally one must credit Ultima Underworld for the more adventure-focused FPS real time dungeon crawler being fully realized and formalized. It is a completely modern feeling game in every single way, and beats the vast majority of the genre until today in important ways, qualities such as things actually happening in the world independent of the character's actions, some sort of functional economy, the combat, lighting mattering to a large degree and being effectively utilized dynamically, tons of different things were maybe not perfected, but formalized with Ultima Underworld. If you liked Oblivion, you won't quite as much after Ultima Underworld. Oblivion is like a hollow shell of a world with robots marching in set spots to and fro day and night waiting to tell you to do fetch quests lol.Ultima Underworld has things later, more graphically impressive games lack entirely or which were implemented poorly. And it's not without warts just like Ultima and Wizardry and the Gold Box games, and King's Bounty, etc. But these are games that perfected the genres once they were established and made it impossible for later games to be much more than hot takes or knockoffs with autistic tweaks. Nobody has managed to fully realize games that beat these classics overall, though, or even significantly improve on them except superficially.
>>12810716Megami Tensei predates this game. Pokemon is inspired by MT, not Wizardry IV.
>>12810709>It's literally 1 on 1 Wizardry combatOh, you’re just trolling. Understood.
>>12810754Summoning one or several monsters in a row specifically to deal with the rock paper scissors mechanic of the opposing monster you've engaged (who might summon monsters themselves) is half of what what Wizardry is all about anon.Pokemon is just a more limited version of this, where you summon only three of the pool of monsters, which you build up over time by catching them. That was the only real mechanic of Pokemon that had an air of originality to it, recruiting the enemy, and that too came from classic formative Western games though it didn't quite catch on big time. Heck you would even "evolve" the characters you "caught" this way by having them as normal members of the party and leveling up!>>12810762>Oh, you’re just trolling.It is. It has the same exact mechanic of rock paper scissors even. It's a simplified, baby style wizardry summoning game where you summon from a pool of monsters you "caught" or recruited. But combat wise it's identical to Wizardry, just vastly simplified and 1 on 1 at a time.
>>128107152/3 of them
>>12810774There are 4 Forgotten Realms games in the Gold Box series.
>>12810743I read this and think I don't need to bother trying Ultima.Same goes for the goldbox shilling btw
>>12810778There’s like 12 gold box games, those 4 are just one part of it.
>>12810632>Western RPG only became good with Bethesda in the late 90's and 00's>J-RPG were always superiorFixed it for you
Make way for the undisputed GOAT, biatches!
>>12810784There are 14 games, 4 Forgotten Realms games, 2 Savage Frontier games, 3 Dragonlance games, two Buck Rogers games, Neverwinter Nights, Spelljammer, and a dev kit to make your own modules that included several other sample modules.They all have the same AD&D rules, they all use the same engine, they all work great and Gold Box formalized RPGs.>>12810783>I read this and think I don't need to bother trying Ultima.You can't properly reply because you haven't the ability. Ultima Underworld was there first, and there best, for real-time 3D dungeon type exploration. It has more life than Skyrim. Much, much more life to it.
>>12810772>Doesn’t at all address the fact that a popular monster summoning Japanese franchise predates monster summoning being a thing in WizardryLet me repeat myself: that mechanic was established by Megami Tensei, not Wizardry. Pokemon was inspired by Megami Tensei.
>>12810792>rushed to market garbageware that killed ssithe second one was actually ok, it was a swan song
>>12810796>that mechanic was established by Megami Tensei, not WizardryWizardry established the summoning to deal with the rock paper scissor mechanic enemy six years before Shin Megami Tensei came out. Are you fucking high?
Wizardry IV came out the same quarter of the same year as Megami Tensei, but it was simply a fun take on what you did all the way back in the old days in 1981.Megami Tensei is provably a babby's Wizardry. Whether or not some jap said Pokemon was inspired by it or not or if it beat it to the punch is irrelevant, because the topic isn't Pokemon lol.
>>12810798nah, Wake of the Ravager is much uglier & bug riddenthen there was Dark Sun Online which appears to have been recently resurrected (just found out as I type this)
>>12810803You realize Shin Megami Tensei isn’t the first game in the franchise, right?
>>12810698>You might get a cute feeling when you play one but that's another discussion.That's your inner tranny trying to break free.
>>12810814I think the problem was that computers were getting too capable and games spent more of the overall budget on graphics and sound and multimedia, exponentially more for a while there from say the late '80s until the mid-'00s every single year probably, chasing the reviews and snippets they could show in ads and in store demos... and ramping the engine every couple years to deal with the new revolution be it FMV on CD-ROM or then 3D... it sucked the life out of the industry. Nothing really has happened in gaming since say... 1995? I'm being generous.>>12810815The first game in the franchise came out in 1987, Wizardry came out in 1981 and has the same mechanic.You're just painfully a misinformed tendie, it's OK we get your type in here all the time.>>12810823I wonder how many played consoles vs pc?
>>12810754By like 4 months. "Predated" is hardly accurate, when they were practically simultaneous.
>>12810826>Wizardry came out in 1981 and has the same mechanic.It objectively does not though.
>>12810829The poor thing things Wizardry IV invented summoning your own rock paper scissors bad guys to deal with the enemy rock paper scissors bad guys because the other anon posted the most pokemon like wizardry game and the other poor thing thereby restricted its argument to Wizardry IV. It posts like a poor quality AI that OCR'd the image.
>>12810632UH OH, STINKY>>>/vrpg/4079951
>>12810830You couldn't summon until Wizardry IV? Really?
>>12810836>somebody made an aislop>you posted it to prove your pointthat's not how it works anon, aislop sucks goat balls too
>>12810839Yes, now you’re getting.
>>12810846It's a Japanese blog, retard. And he claims the 3 greatest RPG's of all time are Wizardry, Ultima, and Phantasie. Cope, weaboo.
>>12810848Ah shit I've got my formative American home computer games mixed up.Bard's Tale is the one with all the summoning to deal with rock paper scissors monsters... 1985!Haha. America always wins when it comes to technology.>>12810854>It's a Japanese blogAn AI image isn't a blog. You're confusing something from a blog, with a blog, category error.>And he claims the 3 greatest RPG's of all time are Wizardry, Ultima, and Phantasie.I couldn't care less, and some blogger's personal ranking of the "greatest"games, is different than identifying the early more pioneering games, and slightly later more formalized and perfected games, which inspired ALL later games, not just JRPGs but of course countless imitators from around the world.
>>12810716>>12810754Chaos - The Battle of Wizards had summoning in '85 on me speccy.
>>12810865Chaos is awesome, but I dislike the illusion mechanic. The recent-ish remake was surprisingly faithful to the original.
Gold Box games also had summoning. 1988. But Gold Box was in development for about two years before release, and AD&D had summoning, so it was natural to include it and Megami Tensei could hardly have been said to have inspired that choice. Summoning being around in D&D (or its beta versions) since a decade and a half or more before that.
>>12810865Bard's Tale too in '85. There are probably much earlier games with this too.
>>12810862>an ai image isn't a blogRetard-stupid turd-worlder detected, lmao.https://note.com/tukimaru_game/n/n7f8298469d9aCope weaboo. Or are you a nintendie? Ah, what's the difference.>, and slightly later more formalized and perfected games, which inspired ALL later games, not just JRPGs but of course countless imitators from around the world.Which would be Western RPG's, of course, lmao, retard.
>>12810871Some of the Plato ones, maybe?, lemme go have a quick look.
>>12810875>>an ai image isn't a blog>Retard-stupid turd-worlder detected, lmao.You posted AIslop and I said it was AIslop and you said it was a blog, but I don't care about the blog. If the blogger wants to come here and post, great. But posting a blog in lieu of an argument isn't going to help the Japanese save face. And it wasn't even just Japanese who cloned these games - EVERYBODY DID.>>12810879It's gotta be way early in the development of RPGs which always kinda tried to just be D&D on a computer.
>>12810881Yep, Oubliette (1977, PLATO) had the Karpa- line of spells to summon monsters to your side.
>>12810836>Phantasie mentionedNice. The Phantasie games feel almost like proto-Final Fantasies with the niggas-in-a-row and the top-down map of Ultima. And the fourth game was a Japan exclusive too.
I have seen it claimed that Japanese video game developers had "no clue" American games existed and that these sorts of things just independently evolved in Japan. But this is ridiculous, at least in the old days seeing what the competition was up to and playing the good games was essentially required to figure out how to even make a video game, what one should entail, etc. Especially in RPGs.Apple sold Apple ]['s in Japan. They were more expensive and weren't in every department store. But they were widely available and they sold quite a few there. The theory that the professional Japanese video game developers weren't checking in on what the country that invented video gaming was doing with their huge, hot video game market can only be put forth by a dishonest person. There's no way anybody would believe that. So let's not try it here.>>12810892I suspected an early one did. My main thesis is Gold Box perfected the turn-based RPG and formalized nearly every detail until today, and moreover many games lack some features of it today. Same with Ultima Underworld for real time. Not that they pioneered the genre but locked it down.>>12810897Never played this one. These Jap-exclusive home computer games weren't even really known in the west until emulators for them appeared. Not to say they didn't also influence other Japanese games but... they themselves were just clones or knockoffs or mashups of a few basic early games.
>>12810632Western RPGs never became good. The Japanese were needed to make the genre enjoyable.
>>12810915Your opinion on the matter is noted, thanks. This thread is about how Gold Box formalized the RPG, and it must have been fun for some people because it sold a huge huge number of copies which prompted it to be brought to many other computers, where it sold many many more copies despite the positively 8-bit graphics and sound of the games on the more capable crop of computers and consoles it was eventually ported to.Your favorite JRPG provably a copy, likely simplified for children, of these computer games. A console being in concept, a child's toy almost exclusively (at the time).
>>12810549I blame the shitty Pool of Radiance NES port
>>12810932I feel sorry for people who played the shitty console ports of classic computer RPGs. Wizardry, Ultima, I see Bard's Tale even has an NES port. They're always like a baby's version of the real game and they kinda suck and people get turned off because they were cheated by the Japanese.
>>12810904The first three Phantasie games were Western (by Winston Douglas Wood and also published by SSI) and in turn borrowed heavily from Ultima and Wizardry. Interestingly they're not that well remembered in the West, probably about on par with the Questron games, but seemed to have greater success in Japan for some reason.
>>12810881>You posted AIslop and I said it was AIslop and you said it was a blog, but I don't care about the blog. If the blogger wants to come here and post, great. But posting a blog in lieu of an argument isn't going to help the Japanese save face. And it wasn't even just Japanese who cloned these games - EVERYBODY DID.Wait, are you autistic? What are you even trying to argue? Because it sounds like you're either completely retarded and misinterpreted my post, thinking I was insulting WRPG's, or hung up on the irrelevant subject of AI artwork.
>>12810915Interesting take. Wrong, but interesting.
>>12810549Gold Box RPG's were huge in the late 80's/early 90's, akin to the isometric Black Isle and Bioware RPG's of the late 90's.
>>12810938>shit graphics and no music but they are muh originals No thanks I'll play the superior remakes
>>12810984Barely remakes. More like remasters.
>>12810938>shitty console ports of classic computer RPGsaka the only playable and enjoyable versions
>>12811005They were badly neutered, they're not even really versions in some cases, such as Ultima. It's a totally different game with the same name slapped on. There's no way such things can be considered playable and enjoyable if they lack most of the game and are a totally different game to boot, lol.
>>12810950Interesting. That rarely ever happens.>>12810969Some Jap blogger can type in his opinion on 4chan or you can at least summarize his points and explain why you agree with him. Linking his blog like you're an infant teacher assigning homework won't do.
>>12810975Just playing now, just started Pools of Radiance, and I can't believe I never played these. I was around at the time too lol, had a computer that could play them and everything.
>>12810560>Even things like facingas far as I know gold box were the first games to account for facing as well as backstab at least in the sense of having a player be able to stab an enemy in the back if the facing is correct, perhaps some other game had an attack called backstab and maybe it had a multiplier, but as far as I am aware the game didn't implement a facing mechanism which actually checked if the enemy's back was turned.
>>12811279Wizard's Crown had it too, but that's basically proto-Gold Box, but more autistic.
>>12811313I read about this one. Like a beta Gold Box beta.
>>12810789Fallout wouldn't have happened without the Bard's Tale clone Wasteland, which is arguably a better game all around.
>>12811327>cloneNot a clone, same developers, just a different game using the same engine.
>>12810915>Western RPGs never became good. The Japanese were needed to make the genre enjoyable.Why don't you jeets keep this nonsense for yourselves
>>12811357>inarticulate screechingNot an argument.
>>12811357Jeets play westslop, they're obsessed with western culture for izzat points, they have no interest in the products of a nation that was conquered and humiliated after WW2
>>12810972So you accept Ocarina of Time from Japan is the best game ever made?
>>12811319 I love it. It's very combat focused though and the story and puzzles are very bare-bones with just enough to keep you going. A fight can take half an hour or longer sometimes. And the system has a lot of obsessive details, like it doesn't have simple HP, instead characters can be injured and/or bleed. Injuries can handicap the character while bleeding drains life. And there's morale to take into account where characters get tired and tense from too many battles without rest. And not just sleeping, but also hanging out and drinking in a tavern restores morale. Different weapons can pierce, bludgeon or slash and the effectiveness of each depend on the type of enemy or armor. There's a lot of details, but fun once you get the hang of it.
>>12810972fable 2 is bad
>>12811395Jeets love Japan.JRPGs are specifically a genre very popular with browns.
