https://youtu.be/xIRVa_ZVdvY?si=Q2KDOAie8WqK3pttthanks for beta testing!
>half the "optimizations" are literally just lowering the settings>other half is painstakingly cleaning up code Core never bothered to optimize because PSX could power through it just fineKek.
>>12926553>im a miserable faggot so I shit on everything I seekek
>>12926537>gayga shitturn>definitive anythinglollmaodefinitive piece of shit for sure.
could THIS have saved the Saturn from the hostile and suicidal actions of Sega of Japan?
This is only interesting if it can benefit the TR2 port
>>12926537>definitiveNahIt's an interesting project, but Saturn version was already behind original PC, modded PC, openlara ports, IOS, PSX, and the official Remasters, to begin with, and these diets don't really polish the turd that much.
wake me up when one of you sad faggots port the CORE's hexalogy on Saturn/Dreamcast.
>>12926574One of the optimizations was literally turning of Gouraud shading. Their version uses flat shading. That‘s hilarious.
>>12926537This would have saved the Saturn...
>>12926621There were a ton of clever optimizations otherwise. Y'all are just sad fags that have to poo poo everything cool.
>>12926624Are you fucking kidding
>>12926639>clever optimizationsYou realize the reason Core didn't make these design decisions is because they wanted it to look comparable to the PS1 and PC versions, right?Making it look much worse and more amateur is not "optimization" you're just undoing all the effort Core put into making the game run at a playable framerate while also looking almost as good as other versions on other platforms. After all, you don't want your Saturn customers getting a clearly inferior game than everyone else.There's a real problem in the programming scene of assuming everyone working on these old games was blind to these optimizations that some bedroom vibecoder claims he discovered.
Did they fix the atrocious sound in the Saturn version?https://youtu.be/VutzIK3DqZE?t=389
>>12926656>There's a real problem in the programming scene of assuming everyone working on these old games was blind to these optimizations that some bedroom vibecoder claims he discovered.Kinda seems like you're making that claim. I assume they simply didn't have the time due to deadlines and people above the engineers cutting time and budget. Regardless, the Saturn version pre-vibecoder optimizations looked like shit anyways so why are you comparing it to the PSX version?
>>12926639see >12926605There's no need for this version. deal with it. Also, optimisations should make the game look better, not worse. See that N64 autist, whatshisname, kaze I think. What he manages to wring out with proper optimisations is astounding. Albeithough borderline hacky
>>12926686The game looks the same comparatively to the original Saturn version, the only discernible difference is the framerate.
>>12926682Did you miss all the videos and articles that tried to claim Nintendo "forgot" to optimize SM64? Or those videos talking about how Nintendo's own emulators are wrong and inaccurate because they don't replicate hardware failures in TAS videos the same as real hardware?There's a wave of vibecoders thinking they are programming geniuses who "fix" old games or "make them better" by fucking with them in ways the devs intentionally chose not to. Of course, they always frame it as if the original devs were stupid or rushed while the vibecoder is a hero finally making the games what they were always supposed to be.
>>12926696>Did you miss all the videos and articles that tried to claim Nintendo "forgot" to optimize SM64I recall reading something about M64 was compiled without -O2, but I don't remember anyone calling them stupid for it. They just didn't understand why they wouldn't use the faster optimization.
>>12926696who gives a shit about accuracy in emulators, I just want to play free shit
>>12926649Good point, Bernie tried as hard as he could and got nowhere. If he couldn't do it no one could. A sad state of affairs.
>>12926537Sega just will not stop winning.
>>12926553Codex, clean up the code Core never bothered to optimize because PlayStation Xtreme could power through it just fine.
>>12926537Didn't we already have this in 1996? 30 years ago?
>>12926656>You realize the reason Core didn't make these design decisions is because they wanted it to look comparable to the PS1 and PC versions, right?Except it already didn't.
>>12926587No, everyone who wanted Tomb Raider already had a PS1 or a good PC. The definitive version right now is TRX which has outclassed everything so far.
It's justNot even a fan of Saturn will play Tomb Raider on it
>>12926680The low quality is likely thanks to the lack of ADPCM support on the Saturn, meaning you can only fit lower sample rate raw PCM in the same amount of sound RAM.The popping artifacts might be fixable though, what bothers me more when playing the Saturn version is how fucking broken the panning is. Everything pans hard left or right based entirely on the angle Lara is standing at and nothing else. I don't know if the PS1 version is the same or not but it feels like a Saturn specific problem.
>>12927317Textures often took a hit on the Saturn because its VRAM was split between VDP1 and VDP2 and in full 3D games VDP2 was often sat there doing very little.
>>12926574Personally I'm just shitting on this sort of thing because we're DROWNING in them and I don't know why I should give a damn anymore. It's so fucking tiresome.
>>12927589Then why bother trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip, with pointless graphical effects which would end up looking subpar anyway, instead of trying to at least make it run well? Speaking of memory, would the game look/run better if its code could recognize (and use) the 4 MB RAM cart?
>>12927381>Everything pans hard left or right based entirely on the angle Lara is standing at and nothing else. I sometimes have an issue with my right speaker not working due to faulty cables. Last time I launched the game I spent 5 mins trying to fix it.It wasn't broken.
>>12926537Is this any better than playing the version in 1-3 remastered with classic graphics on?
>>12926621>One of the optimizations was literally turning of Gouraud shading. Their version uses flat shading. That‘s hilarious.The Sega Rally "optimization" project is disabing textures past a certain point from the player. I believe the Daytona project is doing something similar. Literally just turning off the fucking graphics.
>>12926621>One of the optimizations was literally turning of Gouraud shading. Their version uses flat shading. That‘s hilarious.You misunderstood the video. That's hilarious.
What is it with the Saturn and Dreamcast, in that it has psychotic people praising and defending them?
>>12928449People should only like the most popular things
>>12927317from a 1996 point of view both images are good.
>>12927317Wow that water on the left looks really good! That’s impressive for 96. Why’s the water on the right pic look so boring?
>>12926621You have no clue what they’re talking about and misunderstood the video
>>12926621>One of the optimizations was literally turning of Gouraud shadingIs your brain made of shit? They don't calculate interpolation whenever the colour at each vertex is the same.
>>12926656The saturn version was largely off the back off a single Core dev who really really wanted to do a Saturn version, meanwhile everyone was on his case to get the fuck on with the PS1 and the proper sequel. If he had 2 years and the freedom to tinker I'm sure he also could have done a far better job.
>>12928369Unlikely. Both will be subtly different from the original retail releases in that "oh, that's what that was for... too bad" way remasters and fan ports fuck with the game logic. So just use whatever you have.
>>12928369Way worse and low resolution. The remasters with classic enabled are great and you can run them in a higher resolution.
>>12929125Why are pulling shit off your ass? The game was primarly developed for PC. Then they simultaneously had one programmer do the PSX version and another do the Saturn version, as it was being made on PC.And because I don't just pull shit out my ass here is a source
>>12926537Nice, games performing stable 30 frames per second were pretty uncomon at that time. Not rare, but uncommon Doom and Daytona USA also have seen great improvements recently.
>>12926553It performed like shit on the PSX.
>>12928369It's not even really playable yet, there a ton of progression blockers.https://github.com/AJBats/saturn-tr-remix/blob/main/OPEN_ISSUES.md
>>12926587More like this could have.Such stuff should have been given as instructions to devs then.It'd be nice to see more games ported to the saturn. Maybe some new games too, like people decided to change things and then why not make a completely different game.Carrying over such tweaks would be nice, though newer hardware would have it's own way of doing things best on it.Still, some visuals are stylised, getting newer hardware to perform actions of older stuff on hardware designed for something could count for a lot and in a new game maybe the difference that makes a game more impressive than the rest.Saturn is said spec wise to be 2x better the the PSX. I'd like to see proof of that in well assembled games.Seems there is already a lot of waste. When thinking of games on old systems myself not drawing the ground seems a good idea, though that doesn't allow for verticality in navigation. Could, when it was needed.Looking at the tomb raider video there are quads everywhere. Maybe larger ones too would save performance, at the cost of textures warping on them.
I'm interested in how far older consoles could be pushed. New ones too, and how much of the performance raising systems of old can be applied to newer consoles/pc.Usually something that makes things run better makes them look better, it seems, like making way for something more is inherently a good thing.I wasn't too surprised to find out without being done in hardware affine and nearest neighbour double the performance available, aka double the framerate. Or to do them on CPU means halving the framerate.I don't like the effect of bilinear and stable textures. I think it eats up contrast and detail.It was a bad move to dedicate hardware to that, instead of other things.Hopefully such dedication can be thwarted, along with similar mistakes in hardware manufacture that maybe discovered later.Games don't have a good look now. Something went wrong.Going back to before they were fucked and building from there might provide new demands which are filled with hardware, a different direction that remains impressive.
Simulating another dpad or stick could be using the shoulder buttons.I think I thought of that for Peace Walker and it could be applied to anything needing a camera turned.Left shoulder strafe left, right shoulder strafe right. Together forward. Press repeatedly for backward.Use the dpad to look.Use a face button to modify the shoulders. Like a to go to sights where L is secondary fire and right is primary fire. Have some inertia and maybe remnants of button push so can switch in and out of move and button, eg keep up sights.Peace Walker not using stick to aim with seems silly.Buttons as modifiers with most of the actions being shoulders seems a good idea.Anyway a switch that while held turns shoulders to fire or something. Could still use shoulders to move while pressed, just be firing at the same time.Or forward to fire.It'd be nice to turn l to zoom in and r to fire but not worth not being able to move.-----So:Dpad/stick to lookleft shoulder: strafe left, right shoulder: strafe right, hold together forward, repeatedly press together: backwarda: turn shoulder buttons to fire if held together, or at all.Could also repeatedly press left or right individually to perform an action with it, like double and hold r to fire, or repeatedly to do a burst . Might make moving a problem though. L double pressed and held for sights. Last movent action continued with a deterioration maybe.Not an issue anymore, now better to use both sticks. But might help old games on such systems.Ha. Porting Peace Walker to Saturn is probably possible. Be hard though. And wouldn't be worth it. But making a new game would be. And expanding what was done into a modern or next gen game. Retaining all the performance saving, maybe using some of it for scale or more action. Or unusually high frame rates for better controls.
One thing the video mentioned is it does sprites well. Which should be utilised.Better lower res sprites too with more angles and animations.So low they are barely perceivable from some reference/source is fine i'd say. Like show some clip of what it's supposed to be and people take it as that in game. If not resembling something common.Sprites used to cull would be good too. Add more sprites if needing to cull more of the world to maintain framerate.Can't have high poly characters. But can have high poly sprites. Though sprites should suit the world. Make world as good as it can be, then ad sprites that seem to be rendered to the world's style and constraints.Don't need much draw distance too. Distance could be changed to be represented by lights. Again sprites or just pixels of a colour, bloomed or not.The world is the focus, characters should be nearly free via sprites. if you don't have a good world you don't have much.
What I didn't get in the video is them utilising one of the processors, and they said they were using it too much and opted to use it less.Seems afterward they decided to shift a lot of it's work to other processors, so the weaker one was never doing nothing.Seems to make sense, like don't want to wait on a weaker processor. But utilised more might have been a win they wasted.
repurposing the Tempest 3D AudioTech engine to draw polygons what console equivalent would it be by itselfIf repurposed purely to draw polygons, the PlayStation 5’s Tempest 3D AudioTech engine would perform roughly on par with a 7th-generation console like the PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360 in raw math power, though it lacks dedicated graphics hardware to act as a complete GPU on its own.-----Above in this post is a google search and answer. Google also called this massive performance boost of using the PS5's sound processor to render graphics instead of do 3D audio, negligible.But a lot was done on 7th gen consoles. An entire one extra is not negligible. And could be the difference between a good and a bad game.Getting the absolute best out of hardware makes something on it feel better. It's an art form in itself, not just a contributor to a final result.It took a few questions but Google conceded eventually that the Saturn's VDP2, used for backgrounds and planes, could simulate a movie like world comprised of 30 different backgrounds you could look around in 3D, per second. Storage was the only problem.Said it many times and searching is just getting google to agree with me. That old hardware with enough storage essentially has unlimited graphics for world. You could traverse a 3D World made up of a different skybox every frame, in any direction. But not for long. Due to the extreme cost on storage.But various compression formats alleviate that. Maybe some could be programmed into old consoles. Something like splats.And lowering resolution is a big one. Interpolating frames might be costly to memory but work out visually.Google also said the PS5's sound chip was more powerful than ALL of the PS4 Jaguar CPU cores together. That isn't insignificant.Sound is very cheap if it is low quality. And you won't notice it as much as graphics. And when you would sound should use most of the system.Prioritisation is paramount.
I suppose in Tomb Raider, or other games, vdp2 could have faked a draw distance. And when you got close you had that rendered in 3D.(Another q&a)-----can vdp2 scale backgrounds so it seems you are getting closer to themYes.-----Image is from another question. Any performance gain is not negligible. But maybe unsuited to tomb raider. Dark distance is fine. Google lies though. As can have 4 to 5 layers for backgrounds for vdp2 and can do parallax.Useful in other games though. But maybe not on Saturn hardware. The background would need to either be rendered by hardware once while playing, could be a gameplay mechanic, or much better pre rendered, but exactly how they would be rendered.At lower res should become more viable. Upscalers would have to be tailored to enhance the method rather than expose it.
Trying to remember something I thought of before.Like slices. I guess less powerful hardware works on a slice of the distance.Something. Can't remember.Level of detail/field of view in play. So what is rendered best is 20m etc into the scene. The rest updated at a much lower frame rate. Emphasise looking around, and taking note of distance.More. But on consoles distance less.So what isn't focused is heavily interpolated and motion blurred.Could put things to interact with or where to go in a higher detail (focus) too. Helping navigation. As well as saving performance for what you're looking at. You have a small focal point. It's not the size of a screen. Modern games, or on phones should note where the eyes are looking and heavily blur and pixelate everything else. Maybe more with time. Keep beautifying where you look. Close your eyes to hear better sound etc.
Maybe slices like to raise frame rate when aiming: Only drawing the player character and an area around the gun.Easy PW port:basic world boundariesWorld is a series of skyboxesEnemies are sprites. Seen best at 50m away, eg set of hardly discernable pixels only tell they are enemies by how they move and general shapeBig Boss maybe rendered 3D, for a range of animations. Maybe not. GPUs etc actually doing some world would save a lot of storage cost.But in a modern port storage wouldn't be too much of an issue. Could be terabytes.Raise the frame rate to unseen levels when aiming. For good controls. Stick or dpad.Not that good of a game though. Could do better.And have long distance at low res areas. That are dull. And doable as 3D. Eg dunes.Play by some sound like birds flapping indicating where enemies are.Maybe going to sights in easy mode has a dot where they might be and a cone of their vision. Dots could be fake and disappear after checking them. Going over them.
Smoothing out use of dpad/stick some inertia so you're cancelling out a turn by going the other way. Adding a timing element. So aiming isn't so jerky. Not pressing a direction twice, pressing it holding it, then the opposite, let go. Maybe twice in a direction then for a quick 90 or 180 degree turn.
Lightgun makes controllers a joke. Then dpad to move, shoulder to switch from left and right to strafe. If not some white lines on screen, rest dark.Have a lightgun you don't need much movement. Focus is on constant shooting. Maybe pick a path by how few or absent the enemies are in a section of screen. Clear out where you want to go.Or vice versa.Half or under health you choose where it's easy. Over you choose where it's hard. Get health every kill.Have 3D then just do blood spurts, fog, explosions.Could have a variety. Reward people for having different peripherals. Like a story segment for each. Wheel to drive. Die Hard did something similar.Could do driving as video too. Maybe that. Drive with rare turnoffs. Race. Shoot from. Gun and wheel. All video but you do turn across it. And have some background maybe that gives parallax.Rowdy action stuff. Do some exploring. Some interactions and locations better than others.Hide for a while, adventure game stuff until you fuck up. Towns off the highway. Cities. Why not. Cover every turn for a section of city. Play well, avoid other cars to escape and sightsee.Larger than life characters. And see their life through getting on their side. Large in the sense they have their own stance. Have a lot or nothing they seem alive, not on the side of prison kind of thing. Like they have invested in the world and some world exists because of that. And you don't get to it unless with them. Through is just you locked out forever, unless you be them.Grounded gunplay etc. All acted out. Give some people, amateur actors or people with character a chance to show off and showcase something worth seeing.Live wild. Shoot anyone if you want. Settle somewhere. Have a shitload of text to say goodnight to.
>>12929552>Saturn is said spec wise to be 2x better the the PSX
>half the thread is some schizo no-talent vibecoders ramblingscool
