>>3996452
I also hated people who say Persona/SMT had the best TB system for some reason.
It's just weakness/resistance system with extra rewards for doing it.

cont. >>3996471
Also one of the many reasons Octopath and Sea of Slop sucked because they prioritize finding type weaknesses instead of strategizing.

I love smt but I really don't get why people suck off this system so much.
Its better than just bog stand jrpg combat but its nothing amazing.

>>3996452
people love it because the enemies are also bound to the rules of the system

>>3996513
Oh wow you also get a big punish for using a weakness the enemy can exploit such an innovate system that has never been seen

>>3996452
Jarpigs think hit weakness, repeat is peak turn-based combat. Saw them complain that E33 doesn't rely on this gimmick, so it's bad lmao.

>>3996540
>Expecting innovation in goymes made past 2011
This is why shit like GAYchas and roblox win.

>>3996574
>Paper Mario with a french comic artstyle
Yawn. Chinks are the only one saving jarpigs.

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>>3996452
>Ooooh you get a big reward for hitting an opponent's weakness no one's ever thought of that before
Pokemon's more complex than any other turn based RPG that exists

>>3996452
I mean sure, but its fun.

>>3996595
Except (PVP) Pokemon is predicated on both you and your opponent switching monsters trying to get into an advantageous position while baiting the opponent out. In SMT games (and other single player RPGs that heavily push matching enemy weaknesses) the enemies do not change mid fight, so you all your have to do is match your party/build to what the enemy's main weakness is.

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>>3996452
Woaaahhh so good

>>3996628
how many times have you posted that stale bait?

>>3996513
Not really, the enemies are stupid didn't make good use of the press turn

>>3996452
>system rewards you for paying attention and building an appropriate team
>NOOOO NOT LIKE THAT!!!
OP is a faggot.

>>3996684
>strategizing is all about teambuilding
Literally making use of your limitations and a large variety of options is peak strategy.
Forcing you to play in a rock-paper-scissors game all the time isn't.

>>3996452
Years after playing a bunch of press turn games I realized my main enjoyment comes from how simply fun it is. It’s most obvious in SMT IV, but press turn is just which side nukes the living fuck out of each other first and I find it really fun to watch unfold. Though I do think SMT VV is heading to the right direction with shit like ailment parties being mostly viable.

>>3996684
The problem is that it rewards you too much for engaging with a single mechanic. There is less depth of strategy because "build a team of demons that exploit the boss' weakness" is the only important metric. Whereas in a better balanced game this would be just one thing to consider, and even a character who can't exploit the weakness might have another utility that makes up for it.

>>3996877
I think you’re being reductionist trying to squash teambuilding down to just matching elements. There’s a lot more depth to it than that especially in VV, and matching elements stops being a factor anyways when you get access to things like crit and pierce. Bosses also do a lot more you have to account for besides just hit you with fire instead of ice.

>>3996947
the one who is being reductive is the original anon he replied to, he was just referring to the strawman ">system rewards you for paying attention and building an appropriate team"
SMT VV did a decent job by making demons not just a big ball of stats and elemental weakness/resistances, but the previous SMT games they were all that, which is the thing online SMT/Persona fans were championing as the best TB system in JRPGs

I prefer the persona 3/4 one more/all out attack system. 5 batons might as well be press turn anyways.
It's like better in every way outside of the all out animation but even that could be shorten to just a quick 1 sec thing
I also think 1 stage timed buffs work better than 4 stages unlimited buffs.
It's a bigger reward instantly and prevents every boss from dekeja spamming or smt4 boss deletes you if you buff design

>>3996509
Honestly I think when smt finally broke through the super niche barrier in the west the redeeming quality everyone saw was the fact that it was less forgiving than the likes of Pokemon and FF7 which is what they were used to in a jrpg. They cited the battle systems perhaps as an excuse to express this merit but it was secondary to the idea of difficulty. These days mass gaming culture is already well entrenched in hard = good but it was not that way 15-20 years ago (caveat: hard almost entirely means soulslike in this context)

>>3996601
Pokemon is also the only jrpg that makes status effect work. Pokemon is laughed upon but ironically is generation ahead of smt/persona.

>>4000595
>Pokemon is also the only jrpg that makes status effect work
Play more JRPGs, fool.

>>4000595
>only jrpg that makes status effect work
In what world

>>4000595
Megami Tensei came out before Pokemon, dumbass. Expand your knowledge of the genre before saying dumb shit like this.

>>4000595
>Pokemon is also the only jrpg that makes status effect work
FFIII-X are very rich in status effect manipulation, along with XII. I don't know about the MMOs though but I assume they are, I don't care however, since they aren't turn based.
Etrian Odyssey with the head/arm/leg binds are pretty nice too, although it can be a bit simplistic since those are pretty much just disables with no real nuance.
The good thing about Pokemon is Freeze/Burn/Paralysis can be played around and strategized with instead of just rendering the afflicted Pokemon as useless.
>Pokemon is laughed upon but ironically is generation ahead of smt/persona
Yeah those SMT/Personafags are kinda dishonest faggots who just dismissed the competitive aspect of Pokemon, especially since we are talking about the qualities of a turn based combat system here, not what makes a single player campaign engaging.
I still wonder why Smogonfags never talked about this topic though.

>>3999000
>These days mass gaming culture is already well entrenched in hard = good
you say that but every time a hard game is released people seethe and review bomb it

>>4000874
That is literally unrelated to what he said

>>3996452
>>3996471
you're dumb and smell bad

The system works both ways. Buffs, debuffs and strength and weaknesses in general are extremely important. That's how you design a good combat system, especially when party building is a major mechanic. FFX also has one of the best systems until you reach the end of the game and get to generalize the character builds and just spam Quick Hit.

>>4001479
you're even dumber and reeks of shit since you provided 0 insight in this thread, dumbo.

>>3996452
it isn't about making the game more difficult or more strategic. it's about increasing the fucking player satisfaction in multiple ways:
>cast spell on weakness
>do damage
yawn
>cast spell on weakness
>damage flashes out in a fancy way
better
>cast spell on weakness
>screen shakes and shit explodes everywhere, the numbers are huge, the navigator character is flipping their shit, you get an extra turn
feels great
it's simple

>>4001838
that's quite a dumb reason and doesn't really qualify what makes a system good

It's also the only system I've encountered that makes consumable attack items feel good to use.
In other games, you use a consumable that matches the enemy's weakness, okay, you've dealt a bit more damage than you otherwise would have with an attack. Except the attack doesn't cost you anything, while the consumable comes from a limited supply in your inventory.
Most of the time I just let them rot in my inventory because they feel utterly pointless.
In MegaTen games however, using a consumable on a guy whose weakness you don't have a regular attack for gives you a bonus turn, effectively acting as an extra free attack, which makes them feel actually satisfying to carry and use.

>>3996452
>press turns suuuucks guiiize
shut up faggit. Go play Metaphor, they perfected the system in that game, where you can do dual attacks to use the press turn system in a much more complex way than previous SMTs or DDS etc

>>4000595
Pokemon faggots are the smash players of JRPGs.

I love Press Turn. Ask me anything.

>>4001722
nah thats you

>>4002098
still no reasoning that just proves you are a stinky dumb press turn fan who appeals to popularity

>>4002094
OP already provided an argument for you to respond.
Why don't you just start with that?
If you want an AMA just go to reddit bro

>>3996452
Yeah it's retarded. Critting and hitting a weakness is already its own reward. Adding a second one on top of that is absurd.

>>4004094
yup. just check the replies, their only reasoning was "it's the best because it's fun!"

Devil survivor extra turn mogs
Agility chads win again

>>4001514
No what actually happens is you look up a guide for what aoe spells the next boss has or just simply die to him once than make a demon that absorbs or nulls it and shit on it with zero thought, Repeat.
It's simply too big of a reward for either side that doing anything else is a waste of time

Paper mario perfected turn based rpg combat in the year 2000

>>4001844
it doesn't need to be a smart reason. to use a food analogy,
>DUHHH WHY DOES EVERYONE LIKE YUMMY FOOD, IT'S NOT EVEN SPECIAL, WOOOOW THE FOOD IS YUMMY? HOW PREDICTABLE! OF COURSE I WOULD CHOOSE THE YUMMY FOOD! HOW STUPID!
video games are about jerking the player off, so the systems in them should serve towards "making the player feel good." do not forget that you and i are animals.

>>4005807
>everyone likes fried chicken! but to me it's just chicken? why can't I get something more flavorful?

>>3996702
>Literally making use of your limitations and a large variety of options is peak strategy.
That's literally what SMT games do. Why do you mouthbreathing niggers keep posting in threads about games you've never played?

>>4000595
It's laughed upon because Pokémon fans don't play other RPGs.

>>4006166
>That's literally what SMT games do. Why do you mouthbreathing niggers keep posting in threads about games you've never played?
Literally what OP is telling you that the system is not like that at all and yet the fans keep shoving that it's the best TB system in JRPGS in your face. Why get defensive without even attempting to address the complain first?

Main benefit of press turn isn't about using it yourself, it's about creating the possibility of random encounters killing you without making them take forever or depend on attrition.

SMT 3 and DDS both have the ability to kill you in a random encounter for like 99% of the games even though individual random encounters will generally be over more quickly than other PS2 JRPGs.

>>4006554
>SMT 3 and DDS both have the ability to kill you in a random encounter for like 99% of the games
That happens once a playthrough if you are underleveled or a lucky insta death hits the mc.

>>4006568
You haven't played them in a while. Especially on hard mode some enemy can ambush you, crit or hit a weakness with an aoe, and then you can easily die as they get effectively double damage from the press turns. I just played DDS2 and Narashima can occasionally kill an entire party in his ambush in the final dungeon, and even when he doesn't he'll commonly kill 1-2 party members and force you to burn rare consumables and shit to stay alive, despite being a fight that would take a few seconds to finish if you went first.

>>3999000
>Honestly I think when smt finally broke through the super niche barrier in the west
First SMT game to be released in the west was Nocturne. If you're going to be petty about talking about the whole MT series then no, Jack Bros. on the Virtual Boy would never have any success due to its platform.

I prefer Persona's "one more" system, especially the system used in Persona 5. I don't like the aspect of losing turns in Press Turn. I think you should always have your standard turns, and be able to get bonus turns. If there has to be losing turns, you should only lose bonus turns.

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>>4008759
>I don't like the aspect of losing turns in Press Turn.

so you want to be a super casual, got it. Not get punished for fucking up. Then I have a game for you, designed for casual fucks like you and DSP

>>4004655
No, Nocturne's still one of the hardest JRPGs ever. Reduce the Merciless damage modifier back to normal levels and even Persona 5 gives you a solid challenge.

>>4008846
Nocturne's not even harder than many other Atlus JRPGs

>>4008822
>so you want to be a super casual, got it.
I don't like it from a game design perspective.
You need to hit an enemy with an elemental attack to learn its affinity for that element. So you do that and it happens to be strong in that element. You get punished by losing a turn.
I don't think players should be punished by playing the game the way it was intended to be played.

If you think that makes it too easy, I would increase difficulty by making the enemies use the same strategies as the players do. In a Persona 5 like system, that would mean the enemies using baton passes too, enemies trying to knock down all of your party so they can do an all out attack, etc.

>>4009125
>You need to hit an enemy with an elemental attack to learn its affinity for that element.

no spyglasses?

>>4008846
Most of the difficulty just comes from not knowing what attack the next boss does. If you look at a guide or die to it to see you just make a null/repel demon to abuse press turn, repeat
Nocturne also isn't that hard on its intended difficulty, normal.
Hard mode is a meme overturned mess for retards like most hard modes.
It's funny people shit on persona for the gameplay not mattering when fes is literally one of the most grindy smt games with bigger difficulty spikes than most ON normal.
That table is harder than 95% of nocturne bosses easily.
On the difficulty most people actually will play.

Remember most people think magic protag is bad and go all in str
When magic demi fiend is just straight up more powerful for 99% of the game.
Nocturne fags are literally retarded and have no idea what they are doing.

>>3996513
>people love it because the enemies are also bound to the rules of the system
Except not, since they have bullshit skills that ignore it or just give them free turns whenever they want.

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>>4008846
>No, Nocturne's still one of the hardest JRPGs ever.
Not even close to being the hardest SMT game, dude.

>>3996772
basically this, it's simply a fun system. Honestly hate how slow most rpg fights are

>>4006494
>OP
I’ve seen you post your drivel vagueposts several times in the thread now. Post the game you think meets all of your criteria, you are not debating anything at all without a point of comparison by saying “game doesn’t have X” since the game does have everything you say you simply don’t want to interpret it that way.

>>4012350
>by saying “game doesn’t have X” since the game does have everything you say you simply don’t want to interpret it that way.
Literally gaslighting and lies. Where did I say that?
>you are not debating anything at all without a point of comparison
Pot calling the kettle black. Don't point fingers if you haven't done anything as such yet. I said OP asked and that person I replied didn't do anything and just sounded butthurt without any argument.

>>4012350
>>4012466
>strategizing is all about teambuilding
me:
>Literally making use of your limitations and a large variety of options is peak strategy.
reply:
>That's literally what SMT games do
me:
>Literally what OP is telling you that the system is not like that at all

Still no arguments at all. Am I the one being wrong here?

>>4012471
Yes. You are. You keep saying thats not what SMT does but ultimately thats entirely your opinion not a fact. Now tell me what game you’re comparing it to instead of making moronic samefag posts. You have no argument or opinion without a basis.

>>4012552
>making moronic samefag posts. You have no argument or opinion without a basis
What a hypocrite namecalling faggot you are. The argument was already presented in the OP. I'm just asking those people who keep yelling insults to actually address the argument . You are the one who keep making the same posts just to insult instead of actually trying to discuss.
Why are you like this?

>>4012785
Op did not present an argument they presented an opinion without arguing it a very common tactic amongst shitposters and underage discord raiders in 4chan. Now are you gonna tell me whats a good strategic rpg for you or not? I am giving you the opportunity to actually back up your bullshit, otherwise I don’t give a fuck about your impotent seething at the people that like smt for its strategy its a waste of time to argue against someone who does not have anything more than an opinion without any actual explanation.
Before you reply again, I will give you an example:
Stating that covering weakness isn’t strategic is not only just an opinion but its also reductionist and dishonest. Tell me why its bad by comparing it to something and giving me an actual coherent reason, preferably by showing us how it makes the game easy with an example beyond an early game enemy, instead of simply saying its bad thats all you’ve been doing.
Don’t chicken out by saying I am the one that has to provide examples either, I am not the one that started this thread, the burden of evidence doesn’t work that way. You present an argument then you back it up, the latter which you haven’t done.

>>4009456
>half of the phys moves scale off vit
>there's no point in raising str/vit/mag past 30
>agi literally has a stat floor that's effortless to keep up with
>luck is functionally useless
The game is like metaphor where there's only one real build.

>>4013128
Luck isn’t useless but because of the skills the protag gets its not worth raising on protag specifically.
Magic protag has a stronger early game and a weaker endgame. The reality here though is that it doesn’t really matter what you pick for protag because you’re getting carried by your demons either way.
Either way I do not think how you build one of the characters of your party, that can have four combatants at once is any sort of indication as to how “simplistic” the games systems are. Because of how press turn works, a lot of boss enemies are given broken skills to compensate how broken you are in return but the battle system is very much either you fuck them up or they fuck you up and theres many ways to go about it. Ultimately though the most important thing is buffs/debuffs.

>>4008822
no matter how many times i see this webm it still makes me sad

>>3996452
I think press turn is fine, but the games without it are still really good. Strange Journey has to be the best Megaten game, and it plays like a standard turn based game.

it's just a steady stream of dopamine hits while being extremely easy for casuals to participate in(win more mechanic)
Anything with depth would never be popular because it would necessarily filter too many retards

>>3996452
It makes grinding more fun because you can tear through enemies faster but they also have a chance to turn it around so the stakes are still high. Grinding is the majority of JRPG gameplay so it makes a huge difference even if the headline battles are still basically the same quality as another system.

>>4013047
>Ooooh you get a big reward for hitting an opponent's weakness no one's ever thought of that before. In fact if anything I'd argue it makes the game less strategic because it just leads to building your whole party around elemental weaknesses and supersedes any other tactics
OP already presented his argument. The fact that SMT teambuilding revolves around elemental weaknesses, where you have to constantly switch teams just to accomodate the next boss elemental attributes is restrictive.
Forcing you to play in a restrictive way is not strategic; it's a puzzle with no room for other interpretation.
Why cherrypick posts and then use that to assert superiority, namecall and throw other bullshit insults? I doubt you want a healthy argument, you just want to sound tough online.

>>4013313
>The fact that SMT teambuilding revolves around elemental weaknesses, where you have to constantly switch teams just to accomodate the next boss elemental attributes is restrictive.
Thats isn’t an argument, that isn’t a fact, that isn’t even an opinion its just wrong and plain gaslighting considering OP ignores the rest of what the game has to offer just to push this fake narrative. You didn’t mention buffs or debuffs and if anything the game is more about that than weaknesses, especially when fighting a boss.
I am honestly surprised you decided to use elemental weaknesses to be wrong while criticizing the system instead of something like onmatagoki strategize, granted you’d still be a dishonest piece of shit but at least I would be able to tell you played the games you’re attempting to talk about for more than 5 minutes

>>4013327
>but at least I would be able to tell you played the games you’re attempting to talk about for more than 5 minutes
Keep trying to use this to discredit someone opinion, you're just a condescending faggot.
>You didn’t mention buffs or debuffs and if anything the game is more about that than weaknesses, especially when fighting a boss.
Buffs and debuffs only matter when you get the required mons. You don't get much access to it early game.
The problem is what OP is sick about is people who say it's the best when there isn't much nuance with the system. It does reward your dopamine purely because of the visual effects that tell you did something right, but that doesn't mean that is strategic, heck even "the best"

>>4013157
No. Luck in Nocturne is legitimately a terrible stat. Basically everything remotely relevant that it would contribute to can be countered by simply increasing your agility instead.

>>4013328
>condescending faggot
>>>>>discredit opinions
You’re telling me op isn’t being condescending or that you aren’t discrediting actual fucking facts being told to you? The only reason anyone is aggressive in this thread is because its obvious how dishonest and hypocritical op is being, as well as you are being in this post.
The most broken shit in smt5 is strategize because it lets you infinitely buff/debuff with one turn cost using the right setup and even that is incredibly tedious to setup and clearly meant only for endgame challenges but it proves how overcentralizing buffs/debuffs are in ANY smt game yes this includes persona. You know why people say p3r merciless difficulty is so easy? Its mainly because of auto-mabuff personas. The entire reason the game feels so easy is because you literally start with defense and evasion buffs on everyone for over half the game. You keep going on and on about how these games aren’t strategic simply because they have a bigger emphasis on managing your turn economy and the more you go the more you dig yourself in a hole. If you don’t abuse the weakness system to give yourself more turns then the enemy can use the same system to destroy you, an enemy that already has both a statistical advantage and turn advantage.
The most infamous enemy in smt3 is an early game enemy where if you don’t use buffs you will eat shit even in normal mode, simple as.
Saying that using weakness is just “dopamine” is also reductionist and dishonest when you aren’t abusing weaknesses simply to do more damage but to get more turns to do more things in an objective and consistent manner. What exactly is dopamine in a strategy game then? When you deliberately do things in a specific way to come out on top, that is exactly what you do in smt and metaphor and EVEN persona even if persona is the easiest of the three.

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>>4013349
They are not worthless though just less useful than vit, str or mag depending on mc build and you have more than enough points to distribute into them to make your life slightly easier. Plus you need certain stat thresholds for some of the doors in the bonus dungeon

>>4013472
>You’re telling me op isn’t being condescending or that you aren’t discrediting actual fucking facts being told to you? The only reason anyone is aggressive in this thread is because its obvious how dishonest and hypocritical op is being, as well as you are being in this post.
Just look at OP's posted picture. He is just presenting his argument to counter that picture and narrative that SMTfags posted online.
Why did you choose to ignore that and instead devolve into unnecessary insults? Or maybe you are just that deaf about the problem that OP is talking about?

>Saying that using weakness is just “dopamine” is also reductionist and dishonest when you aren’t abusing weaknesses simply to do more damage but to get more turns to do more things in an objective and consistent manner. What exactly is dopamine in a strategy game then?
Nobody said it's just dopamine nor is dopamine is bad thing to begin with. some people in this thread said "it's the best because it makes your brain happy" and I just don't agree with that being the criteria of what makes a game strategic nor what constitutes as the best turn based battle system.

>>4014019
>Just look at OP's posted picture. He is just presenting his argument to counter that picture and narrative that SMTfags posted online.
Yes he’s using a cherrypicked image to make a sweeping assumption about “smtfags” and uses it as an argument. To call this behavior dishonest is generous, its more the behavior of someone who is delusional and a retarded moron. I cannot imagine how anyone can think they wouldn’t receive pissed off replies and ad hominems when you literally start a discussion with retarded insults and assumptions.
>some people in this thread said "it's the best because it makes your brain happy" and I just don't agree with that being the criteria of what makes a game strategic nor what constitutes as the best turn based battle system.
You are severely downplaying what is actually being said in this thread. The only way I can describe this is grasping at straws and making up an enemy in your head because you saw and handful of people, probably one guy in 4chan or reddit or some retarded youtuber, say its the best turn based battle system ever. You don’t have to agree with people that have a different opinion than yours and its perfectly fine if you do but if you’re gonna argue said opinion then you better come prepared to actually defend your point with facts and logic.
Better yet why don’t you just enjoy things instead of being a tribal retard about what is the best turn based system, everyone is going to have a different opinion on this, some will even say a game is good just because of the story and never mention gameplay. Its not worth getting mad about someone having a different opinion to yours.

>>4014021
>I cannot imagine how anyone can think they wouldn’t receive pissed off replies and ad hominems when you literally start a discussion with retarded insults and assumptions.
who started the baseless insults with "moronic", "mouthbreathing niggers", "you never played the game", "bullshit", "impotent seething", "don't chicken out", "vagueposts (literally everyone vagueposts without any actual facts and evidence)" just because of an opinion you disagreed with?
I think you need to look at the mirror. You just throw insults to feel superior don't you?
>you need to actually defend your point with facts and logic.
Where is this facts and logic? All your replies are just "muh emphasis on turn economy", "it makes buffs debuffs are important" (which has nothing to do with the system) , nothing backed up, just your own autistic drivel and preferences. We all know that turn economy is important in turn based RPGs, but press turn defaults to making it the main focus. Why does hitting weakness grant you extra turn when easily effective damage is already a reward on its own? Why need to give you extra points for doing it?
>You are severely downplaying what is actually being said in this thread
There is nothing productive in this thread. Just insults and baseless claims, mostly said by you
>Better yet why don’t you just enjoy things instead of being a tribal retard
Exhibit A.
>Its not worth getting mad about someone having a different opinion to yours.
Exhibit A. Look. At. The. Mirror

>>3996452
kys you newfag.

>>4012068
People larp that nocturne is le hardest game ever because they saw a YouTube video or some meme that was on hard difficulty which is an unbalanced unfun retard mode. It's like calling call of duty a hard shooter because veteran difficulty in waw is bullshit
Like lol.
Normal mode nocturne is like about as challenging as persona 4 ps2 but nocturne larpers don't like hearing that because they want to be elitists and persona is for babies blah blah blah even though p3fes is a top 5 hardest atlus game on its normal
Anyone got that gif of surt and mc deleting kagutsuchi spamming one attack over and over with other 2 demons passing

>>4014078
That's not fair I want to retract a bit
Combat wise nocturne is a bit harder than p4 ps2, not much.
but obviously nocturne having dungeon gimmicks add some more challenge to the game that isn't just combat.
Boss fight wise idk shadow teddie is easily harder than a lot of nocturne bosses

>smt is hardcore, you can't just grind to beat something it actually requires strategy
>Playing devil survivor blind
>Day 6 morning
>Realize despite the game having a time limit gimmick I can just grind forever and get all the skill cracks I miss and money comes from these battles in far bigger drops.
>Do like only 2 of them
>Realize my MC on day 6 was like 9 levels below every enemy squad
>Now that I'm same level and op spells I just brain dead nuke everything
Brilliant design atlus lmao surely not like every RPG ever

>>4014036
>who started
OP. Whom you are siding with.
>just your own autistic drivel and preferences
Its not my problem that you are criticizing games you know nothing about. Trying to pretend I didn’t actually say anything by adding “muh” to some things I said is just another thing a retard would do.
>There is nothing productive in this thread.
Correct there isn’t since the thread wasn’t meant to be productive to begin with. You’re just mad because people don’t agree with you and go on a tantrum when they point out how stupid your posts are.

>>4013479
Not levelling magic is such a meme holy shit

You made the earlier half of the game needlessly hard for yourself, plus you missed out on magma axis

>>3996452
grandia basically has press turn, AND its better at it

>>4014309
The picture is a joke, look at the skills, but he has a point in that magic is just worse than phys lategame.
Either way you can’t go wrong with either. Just do a balanced build and stop leveling magic at like 20 or 15

>>4014324
There's no point in raising any stat beyond 30 in Nocturne because of magatama bonuses. The issues with Agi/Luck have been well documented at this point, and the actual biggest issue plaguing magic is the fact that pierce doesn't work on it which is of course relevant for a certain route.

>>4014178
>OP. Whom you are siding with.
Why can't your brain understand nuance? If you can actually engage with the arguments instead of throwing insults like someone butthurt about it, I would actually make an effort to agree with the opposite side of the argument.
>Its not my problem that you are criticizing games you know nothing about
You keep using this when you don't know anything about me.
>Trying to pretend I didn’t actually say anything by adding “muh” to some things I said is just another thing a retard would do.
Again, calling another one a retard without actually debating my actual arguments.
Where is your actual argument regarding OP's complains instead of using treating your opinion as a fact?
>Correct there isn’t since the thread wasn’t meant to be productive to begin with
You think you're the only correct one here. Uh-huh.
>You’re just mad because people don’t agree with you and go on a tantrum when they point out how stupid your posts are.
Just like what you are actually doing right now.

>>4014449
>Why can't your brain understand nuance?
It does.
>If you can actually engage with the arguments instead of throwing insults like someone butthurt about it
You haven’t done this at all, the fact that this thread starts with insults makes this statement you made into a fucking joke. Also don’t kid yourself about “actually make an effort to agree” you are convinced from the start and you will use any reductionist argument possible to keep the conversation flowing in your favor.
>calling another one a retard without actually debating my actual arguments.
Where are your arguments anon? I have given you several spiels already where you literally reduce what was said with the phrase “muh” as if it doesn’t matter. Your arguments literally amount to “I don’t think what you’re saying is true/right” or “it doesn’t matter that the game does this”. Why does it matter at this point if it comes to insults? You never bothered to engage with the argument when you were told hitting weaknesses isn’t just about dopamine or that buffs/debuffs are the true singular most important aspect of any smt game. You were given examples of things that actually trivialize these games like auto-buffs in persona or strategize and you were told to stop basing yourself entirely on the first hour of gameplay but nope, OP is right, smt is just a cheap dopamine hit series where all you do is hit weaknesses. Please get over yourself you fucking arrogant piece of shit. I don’t even have to like SMT or its players to tell you how much worse you are than the very people you criticize.
More importantly I requested to what I presume to be someone else a very important request to actually continue this argument, you and that other person never answered it instead you demanded to be fed more (you)s because the burden of providing a valid argument doesn’t fall to you the instigator, thats your style of debating

>>4014809
>You haven’t done this at all, the fact that this thread starts with insults makes this statement you made into a fucking joke
I said if you made a convincing argument I would listen. You didn't at all, and keep repeating uncalled insults. Where did I insult you to begin with? Check my last reply, I showed receipts of you throwing them like a madman in a frenzied state.
>You never bothered to engage with the argument when you were told hitting weaknesses isn’t just about dopamine or that buffs/debuffs are the true singular most important aspect of any smt game.
I already claimed that I based that argument from the replies from various anons in this thread. Please check again. Then I asked again, why does a system reward hitting weaknesses so much? You didn't actually engage with that question, instead saying buffs and debuffs are important, letting the player / enemy manipulate turn economy is the reason it is strategic.
>You were given examples of things that actually trivialize these games like auto-buffs in persona or strategize and you were told to stop basing yourself entirely on the first hour of gameplay
But those aren't what we are talking about. It's the Press Turn System. We aren't talking about the overall game quality here.
>Why does it matter at this point if it comes to insults?
>I don’t even have to like SMT or its players to tell you how much worse you are than the very people you criticize.
>fucking arrogant piece of shit
Why do you keep denying that you are the bigger person here? I wouldn't throw those accusations if you could've argued peacefully from the start. Like I said, you are the one throwing insults. I'm just asking why you keep throwing insults, and you think that I'm insulting you. Don't you find it ironic?
>your style of debating
And your style is to ramble like a butthurt man and insult the opposition without any cause. I prefer to be the instigator on this regard.

>>4014989
You do realize that every single thing you mentioned engages with the press turn system right? The buffs, the debuffs, the strategize thing and all of that explains why it makes the system rewarding and why its more than just exploiting weaknesses. To me it sounds more like you are just dodging the point. You are quite literally accusing other people of not engaging with the argument or opinion in question when they literally are by just deflecting.

>>4014989
>Then I asked again, why does a system reward hitting weaknesses so much? You didn't actually engage with that question, instead saying buffs and debuffs are important, letting the player / enemy manipulate turn economy is the reason it is strategic
You are far too dishonest to continue arguing with or maybe you are actually retarded or maybe this is just bait.

>>4014989
>instead saying buffs and debuffs are important, letting the player / enemy manipulate turn economy is the reason it is strategic
Maybe its because you haven’t played the game and are getting all your opinions from this thread but exploiting weaknesses gives you more turns, thats essentially what press turn means. Everything you said here is directly related to press turn as a system and also explains what your reward for hitting weaknesses is.

>>4014989
>letting the player / enemy manipulate turn economy is the reason it is strategic.
Well that one mechanic dictates how battles play out. The most optimal actions to take are to increase your actions for your turn or do something that can reduce your enemies actions (evasion/accuracy buff/debuff).

>>3996452
>>3996471
>>3996509
It's more a problem than 99% of jrpg systems are a cut and paste turn-based slop and that Press Turn at least gives you a few options between buffing, hitting a weakness, healing, or covering your own weakness. There's some tactics involved and given the relative lack of fairness when it comes to enemies wiping your entire party several times over if you aren't prepared, system mastery feels good enough without requiring a PhD for it. It's better than the competition which is why people suck it off, though I'd think press turns would be less well-regarded if the games didn't have the brazen enemy bullshit of giving themselves more turns (on a cooldown) and ass-raping the party.

>>4015553
>It's more a problem than 99% of jrpg systems are a cut and paste turn-based slop
Like what? Ys, Star Ocean, Tales of, Xanadu, and others are action games. Then you have SNES and PS1 Final Fantasy games along with Chrono Trigger that are ATB systems. Then others like Legend of Dragoon, Mario RPGs, Shadow Hearts, Vagrant Story, and so on that habe quick action based commands often times when you perform attacks. Then you have a good amount of Gust games that use a time line for combat to either use skills to get better initiative or to constantly delay foes on the time line.

>>4015553
If the enemies didn’t have the ability to do that you would just wipe the floor with them.
Either way SMT5doesn’t do this so eventually they just decided to give the enemy the same amount of action economy the player has or broken abilities (tandava for example).

>>4015476
>The buffs, the debuffs, the strategize thing and all of that explains why it makes the system rewarding and why its more than just exploiting weaknesses. To me it sounds more like you are just dodging the point. You are quite literally accusing other people of not engaging with the argument or opinion in question when they literally are by just deflecting.
How is buffs and debuffs related to press turn? It's a turn system, nothing it does is influenced by buffs and debuffs. How am I dodging the point? You sound like you didn't understand what I'm talking about.
>The buffs, the debuffs, the strategize thing and all of that explains why it makes the system rewarding
What the fuck is this argument? It's like saying "it's good because.. it's good!"
I swear you are just trolling at this point.
>Keeps saying the other person dishonest and yet keeps throwing insults trying to act like the bigger person
pick a struggle.
>The most optimal actions to take are to increase your actions for your turn or do something that can reduce your enemies actions
That's what I'm complaining. What is it actually strategic if what you basically do is just reducing your opponent amount of turns through hitting their weaknesses over and over again? And the enemy AI in those games doesn't even have a choice; they will keep repeating the same action over and over again. Is this supposed to be strategic? It's child's play!
>>4015553
>feels good enough without requiring a PhD for it
why is this a good thing? see the reason is always "it's simplistic!" but there is no actual strategy behind it. It's a framework that you can just repeat over and over again mindlessly.

>>4015760
>How is buffs and debuffs related to press turn? It's a turn system, nothing it does is influenced by buffs and debuffs. How am I dodging the point? You sound like you didn't understand what I'm talking about.
Buffs in most SMT games and Metaphor have to be used repeatedly in order to increase the buff rank. This can have a huge impact in battle if you combine buffs with debuffs, naturally this also interacts directly with turn economy as a buff cast costs you an entire turn or press turn if you’re playing intelligently.
>What the fuck is this argument? It's like saying "it's good because.. it's good!"
I swear you are just trolling at this point.
If you spend all your turns casting buffs/debuffs without generating press turns you will have no turns left to actually attack.
>reducing your opponent amount of turns through hitting their weaknesses over and over again?
You aren’t reducing your opponents turns. Do you understand how press turn works or did you just enter this thread to get into a fight with people?

>>4015819
>Buffs in most SMT games and Metaphor have to be used repeatedly in order to increase the buff rank. This can have a huge impact in battle if you combine buffs with debuffs, naturally this also interacts directly with turn economy as a buff cast costs you an entire turn or press turn if you’re playing intelligently.
Buffs and debuffs existed in every other game. You know even them most popular mainstream JRPG have that and it's one of the best winning method as well.
Utilizing buffs so you can hit harder in one hit is nothing new.

>If you spend all your turns casting buffs/debuffs without generating press turns you will have no turns left to actually attack.
Where did I mention about that? I'm saying that your argument is that your point about buff & debuffs don't really prove that system is strategic at all.

>You aren’t reducing your opponents turns. Do you understand how press turn works or did you just enter this thread to get into a fight with people?
What do you mean? Why do you think I'm starting a fight in the first place when they are the one throwing those insults? Be real.
Also I'm pretty sure that's how Press Turn works. When your enemy demons cast a spell that you null/repel/drain they lose turns. You really don't know about that?

>>4015954
>You know even them most popular mainstream JRPG have that and it's one of the best winning method as well.
Yes but that has nothing to do with what I said. You asked how buffs and debuffs relate to press turn and I explained how, in order to play more efficiently you need to generate press turns and use those to buff or debuff which is actually pretty different to standard turn based battles.
>I'm saying that your argument is that your point about buff & debuffs don't really prove that system is strategic at all.
You keep saying this but this is really no different to “strategy” in any other rpg the only difference is how the combat works. If I were to compare this to something very standard like ff7 it is definitely more strategic in my opinion since you make use of buffs/debuffs and ailments far more often, sometimes even in random battles and enemies generally have the same tools you have making them equally dangerous if you play carelessly.
>When your enemy demons cast a spell that you null/repel/drain they lose turns. You really don't know about that?
Thats not what you said, you said:
> just reducing your opponent amount of turns through hitting their weaknesses over and over again?
This is also why buffs/debuffs are important, the enemy can use these same tactics to fuck you over. This is precisely why matador is a filter in nocturne even in normal mode. The enemy AI generally cannot be completely shut down or will just use almighty.

Also you will probably be dismissive with your next reply but the things that are “strategic” in any turn based rpg are weaknesses, ailments, buffs, debuffs, healing and other things like that without those things the only thing you have left is attacking and defending and theres nothing really strategic about just that.

>>4015954
If we’re talking about smt5
Null passives are late-game, drains/repels passive are very late-game, essentially in the level 90s
>but block items and skills
Not only are these actions you take in battle, and essentially buffs, but in the case of items you can only hold up to 3. Earlier smt games like nocturne also don’t have null buffs. The same goes for makarakarn and tetrakarn, which are midgame and only affect one ally.
At no point in the game can you completely shut down an enemy since late game enemies will start spamming almighty. In nocturne there are some enemies you can shut down with careful usage of these kinds of buffs but as mentioned before this is still taking into account your action economy.
This all sounds pretty strategic to me

>>4015960
>You asked how buffs and debuffs relate to press turn and I explained how, in order to play more efficiently you need to generate press turns and use those to buff or debuff which is actually pretty different to standard turn based battles.
The system itself is what I'm saying the problem. Most JRPGs also hinted us to use buff/debuff to make battles easier. It's not something unique. I don't see why buff/debuff synergizes that well with press turns when every other TB RPG has that.
> If I were to compare this to something very standard like ff7
ff7 is barely very standard with the amount of ailments and status effects in that game.
>it is definitely more strategic in my opinion since you make use of buffs/debuffs and ailments far more often, sometimes even in random battles and enemies generally have the same tools you have making them equally dangerous if you play carelessly.
so now it's about the game itself. I admit Atlus loves making even the randomest of encounters deadly. But how does that correlate with Press Turn system itself?

>Thats not what you said, you said: just reducing your opponent amount of turns through hitting their weaknesses over and over again?
OK I admit I tunnel visioned with my reply but why don't you address my point on what you just replied on?
>When your enemy demons cast a spell that you null/repel/drain they lose turns
>enemy AI won't change accordingly based on your party
>strategic for us, not for thee

>At no point in the game can you completely shut down an enemy since late game enemies will start spamming almighty
By this point the press turn system is no longer the talking point.
>In nocturne there are some enemies you can shut down with careful usage of these kinds of buffs but as mentioned before this is still taking into account your action economy.
So it goes back again to buffs/debuffs but not the system itself.

1 more with baton pass especially with p5 stat boosting on each pass so if you get a full party pass the final member is doing something huge is a more interesting system that could work really well implemented in all of smt if they designed harder encounters with enemy parties being able to do the same back to the player in mind.
Press turn is just fuse null / reflect demon to remove enemy turns repeat

>>3996452
Any game that's designed around healing to full health every turn is shit anyway.